Australia [334/5] beat India [313/8] by 21 runs in the fourth ODI, trail series 3-1

[MMHS]

Stop hyping up on Dhoni. He is done and dusted. A well knowledgeable poster like yourself should know that, everyone except the selectors know that. Whats more scary thing is, R Shastri already declared Dhoni will be in WC 2019

I can bet my bottom dollar, if Dhoni/Jadhav/Rahane are part of WC team then India will not even reach semis. An embarrassing WorldCup(like 2007) waiting ahead

MS's keeping is an issue - now he is keeping using his experience - he can predict what bowlers are going to bowl, what shot batsmen are planing (from their movement, match situation & bowling), but as a WK he is finished & he knows it better than anyone - hence retired from Test. But, in ODI he is still an asset as a batsman, because hardly anyone understands the ODI game better than him. Posters are upset here, because people are habituated with super natural out put from him, but forget past as MSD - just as a player, in last 2 years what he has done is still enough for a spot in XI.

Age is not in his side, so asking to drop him isn't illogical, because team should look 19 months forward, not now. On merit he doesn't deserve to be forced to retire - what I would have done is, I would have picked Samson or Pant or even Uthupa as WK & play MS as specialist bat at 5. May be Shastri has planned the same in future. No one should questing MSD when Rahne is opening & Jadav is still in XI.

 

[Diffusion]

Chasing a big total you need to be more aggressive at the top. Rahane's inning just doesn't cut it at this level

 

[sachin100]

Indias batting after top three is non existant and it depends on just luck. There are two many hacks like jhadav, dhoni and even pandey who looks like a hack to me.

India will not win any match if top order fails and that what happened in ct final

 

[troodon]

How about trying Krunal Pandya in place of Axar or Jadhav? He has the potential and zeal to fill up that spot. What's your take on this?

Not a bad idea. He can bowl decently and can hit big shots as well as play sensibly when needed.

May be we can replace Axar with Krunal. But Jadhav should be replaced with a batsman who can score fast. With Top heavy Indian batting unit, No.4 and 5 will not get too many overs to play. May be 10-15 overs at best. Jadhav, MSD struggle to score. Even when they hit big shots, they play way too many dots to negate their good work.

If only we had prime Raina in the team. Even Pant can fill that slot.

 

[troodon]

Indias batting after top three is non existant and it depends on just luck. There are two many hacks like jhadav, dhoni and even pandey who looks like a hack to me.

India will not win any match if top order fails and that what happened in ct final

Same happened in CT.

Rohit/Dhawan/Kohli played well until finals and scored bulk of the runs. Their batting covered up all the deficiences of the middle and lower order. Once the top order failed, the likes of MSD,UV were exposed in the finals..

MSD should not bat at no.5 or No.6. He is a liability there. He should be coming in at 8. India needs to quikcly find some big hitters to fill in the no.5 and no.6 slots. Otherwise, they have to depend on top order everytime to bail them out.

 

[Tyler Durden]

What is their contribution in champions trophy tell me? U want dhoni in the team as a specimen so that others perform and carry him as a player? Tell me why he merits a place in the team as a batsman?

I'm not backing Dhoni here. All I said was today's failure was as a whole team.

Btw! In the last 9 ODIs, Dhoni has scores of 79, 67*, 49* and 45*. And ofcoruse his lightening wicket-keeping work! His massive experience as the Ex-Captain, taking tactical decisions, setting up fields, helping Virat. Do you have any replacement for all these jobs in one man at the moment?
Yes! I saw enough of Rishab Pant, KL Rahul as WK and Jadhav as WK.. Sigh!

 

[Kaptan]

Haha. So u mean to say india won only due to his captaincy and not due to players performances?

So u mean India lost today due to Dhoni and not due to stupid brainless Jadav and ignorant Kohli ?

 

[Tyler Durden]

Not a bad idea. He can bowl decently and can hit big shots as well as play sensibly when needed.

May be we can replace Axar with Krunal. But Jadhav should be replaced with a batsman who can score fast. With Top heavy Indian batting unit, No.4 and 5 will not get too many overs to play. May be 10-15 overs at best. Jadhav, MSD struggle to score. Even when they hit big shots, they play way too many dots to negate their good work.

If only we had prime Raina in the team. Even Pant can fill that slot.

I second that! Aww! How I miss prime Raina!!

 

[cr7great]

dhoni cant hit to any fast bowler
pant will definately play at higher strike rate than dhoni if he is given loner run

 

[sachin100]

I'm not backing Dhoni here. All I said was today's failure was as a whole team.

Btw! In the last 9 ODIs, Dhoni has scores of 79, 67*, 49* and 45*. And ofcoruse his lightening wicket-keeping work! His massive experience as the Ex-Captain, taking tactical decisions, setting up fields, helping Virat. Do you have any replacement for all these jobs in one man at the moment?
Yes! I saw enough of Rishab Pant, KL Rahul as WK and Jadhav as WK.. Sigh!

Those innings are all at less than run a ball and he cannot accelerate because his hacking ability is gone. He knows it and he fluffed more than a dozen less than run a ball chases in last two yrs.

He can win u a game whe top order batsman is there along with him who has to do all the big hitting and he nudges and nurdles singles.

When he is the man to do it he lost it completely.

His keeping may be useful but u can't carry him for his keeping in this era of flat pitches

 

[sachin100]

So u mean India lost today due to Dhoni and not due to stupid brainless Jadav and ignorant Kohli ?

Where did i say india lost due to him? I was critical on jhadav since eternity. U can check my posts.

Then what is the use of Dhoni if he can't do the required hitting at the death?
Do u want him to play at number 4 where he takes eternity to settle and ask others to play shots around him?

 

[Kaptan]

The problem is Dhoni bats down the order.
Most of the time its too late.He came when 40 runs were required of the last 3 overs with a tailender at other end.
Yeah people expect him to win matches out of nowhere but 40 runs of 3 overs ?
Its easy to blame him for everything because he bats down the order.

 

[sachin100]

As i told in other thread dhoni coming to form against srilanka is a disaster for indian cricket in the long term.

He will be picked for the world cup and he goes missing like he always does in icc tournaments.

He is a bigger choker than kohli in icc tournaments.

 

[ego-gambit]

dhoni cant hit to any fast bowler
pant will definately play at higher strike rate than dhoni if he is given loner run

No great keeper Pant is neither better batsman than Dhoni today wicket is holding up with old ball difficult to time

 

[sachin100]

The problem is Dhoni bats down the order.
Most of the time its too late.He came when 40 runs were required of the last 3 overs with a tailender at other end.
Yeah people expect him to win matches out of nowhere but 40 runs of 3 overs ?
Its easy to blame him for everything because he bats down the order.

Then why should he be selected as a batsman? Why should he be promoted up the order when he is not even good there? He takes ages to settle and sucks all the momentum in the process?

What will india achieve by promoting him up the order?

 

[Kaptan]

Its like when a team A is defending 350 runs against team B.
Team B needs 12 runs in the last over and bowler A1 is bowling. If eventually team B wins the match by scoring 12 runs in the last over will you blame bowler A1 for the loss ?

 

[Kaptan]

Then why should he be selected as a batsman? Why should he be promoted up the order when he is not even good there? He takes ages to settle and sucks all the momentum in the process?

What will india achieve by promoting him up the order?

All I am saying is that for today's loss Jadhav and Kohli are more responsible.

 

[sachin100]

All I am saying is that for today's loss Jadhav and Kohli are more responsible.

Absolutely agree on that. But why should india play over the hill batsman like dhoni who will be 38 by next world cup.

 

[sachin100]

All I am saying is that for today's loss Jadhav and Kohli are more responsible.

Today's match just confirms every one that dhoni is finished as a batsman.

If he is in his prime or a youngster u can continue but why continue with a already finished batsman

 

[sachin100]

If dhoni is there he will not be rested and other keeper batsman will never get a chance.

U have to give chances to others in form and in their younger yrs.

Dhoni is blocking development of other keepers until he reires because they will not get a single chance until he is there

 

[vagabond007ti]

imo today's defeat attributes to 2 reasons.

1. India changed 3 bowlers BK, Bumrah, K Yadav - all of them were bowling really well so far in the tournament.
2. Jadhav's inability to accelerate. He was a set batsmen and asking rate wasnt over 8. He kept playing dot balls and brought pressure on himself and rest of the team.

 

[gani999]

So it is all out in the open fellas. As Pakistan showed in the CT and the Aussies did today, the key to beating India in an ODI is to bat first and put up a 330+ score on the board.

India = scoreboard pressure chokers

 

[sachin100]

So it is all out in the open fellas. As Pakistan showed in the CT and the Aussies did today, the key to beating India in an ODI is to bat first and put up a 330+ score on the board.

India = scoreboard pressure chokers

But but our captain will win the toss and bowl first again knowing all well that our batting is nothing without top order contributions.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Warner showing Kohli how to score game winning centuries away from home. No bigger match-winner in the world today.

 

[Varun]

Went to catch the cricket today.

Here's a picture:

 

[Chief Destroyer]

[MENTION=132373]Convict[/MENTION] Told ya Handscomb has it in him to become an ODI player. Watch the development.

 

[ego-gambit]

So it is all out in the open fellas. As Pakistan showed in the CT and the Aussies did today, the key to beating India in an ODI is to bat first and put up a 330+ score on the board.

India = scoreboard pressure chokers

Oh just score 330 + so easy tell this secret to pakistan team & they will never lose any match against India

 

[Leo23]

Warner showing Kohli how to score game winning centuries away from home. No bigger match-winner in the world today.

yeah too bad he couldn't do it when the series was alive

kohli was also there to watch warner average 24 in india in the test series and embarrass himself for the umpteenth time away from home

meanwhile kohli averaged 86 the last time he played a test series in australia

warner is not half the batsman kohli is in any format of the game.

 

[Leo23]

But but our captain will win the toss and bowl first again knowing all well that our batting is nothing without top order contributions.

it is the right decision.

kohli backs himself and his strength. jadhav and dhoni are good chasers too. you cannot win every game.

 

[sachin100]

it is the right decision.

kohli backs himself and his strength. jadhav and dhoni are good chasers too. you cannot win every game.

U have to look into opponent strength as well. Pak is not good at chasing and in icc tournaments they haven't chased even 220 against india any time

 

[Chief Destroyer]

yeah too bad he couldn't do it when the series was alive

kohli was also there to watch warner average 24 in india in the test series and embarrass himself for the umpteenth time away from home

meanwhile kohli averaged 86 the last time he played a test series in australia

warner is not half the batsman kohli is in any format of the game.

Kohli averaged 9 in that series so I'm sure he did a lot of watching.

 

[Leo23]

Kohli averaged 9 in that series so I'm sure he did a lot of watching.

yeah and warner cannot average 86 in india in a million years. simply doesn't have the caliber.

 

[Syed1]

India just doesn't have the ruthlessness of the Aussies of 2000s to blank out even good sides 5-0.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

yeah and warner cannot average 86 in india in a million years. simply doesn't have the caliber.

Yeah, what? How do you explain Kohli averaging 9 in that series? That's beyond embarrassing.

 

[Leo23]

India just doesn't have the ruthlessness of the Aussies of 2000s to blank out even good sides 5-0.

only a fool would compare this indian side do the australia of 2000

this is a very good team but that australian side was out of this world

 

[Leo23]

Yeah, what? How do you explain Kohli averaging 9 in that series? That's beyond embarrassing.

a bad series after scoring heavily in consecutive series. it happens. this is cricket not a computer game.

what is beyond embarrassing is how warner has failed in india every single time. not a single test hundred.

how do you explain that? why can't the biggest match winner hack it in india to save his life?

 

[Syed1]

only a fool would compare this indian side do the australia of 2000

this is a very good team but that australian side was out of this world

I guess you haven't visited the "India is like the Aussies of 2000" thread which is quite active these days.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

a bad series after scoring heavily in consecutive series. it happens. this is cricket not a computer game.

what is beyond embarrassing is how warner has failed in india every single time. not a single test hundred.

how do you explain that? why can't the biggest match winner hack it in india to save his life?

Against pie chuckers. This was Kohli's first actual challenge in India on turners and he failed spectacularly. Averaged 9. That's worse than his average in England.

 

[Sachin136]

Against pie chuckers. This was Kohli's first actual challenge in India on turners and he failed spectacularly. Averaged 9. That's worse than his average in England.

3 of his 5 dismissals were to pacers.

 

[Sachin136]

India just doesn't have the ruthlessness of the Aussies of 2000s to blank out even good sides 5-0.

India rested their key players after winning the series. Dhawan, Bumrah, Bhuvi, Jadeja etc didn't play, and Dhawan and Jadeja didn't play this series at all.

 

[Leo23]

Against pie chuckers. This was Kohli's first actual challenge in India on turners and he failed spectacularly. Averaged 9. That's worse than his average in England.

mate,warner can face an attack of a mediocre ranji team and he will still not do in india what kohli did in australia in 2013-2014

kohli has overcome bigger challenges. he was simply zoned out in that series.

i know you think kohli is crap and all the hype is for nothing but facts speak otherwise. the guy is easily the top cricketer of this generation and will be remembered as the most iconic player of this decade. not your great match winner warner.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

mate,warner can face an attack of a mediocre ranji team and he will still not do in india what kohli did in australia in 2013-2014

kohli has overcome bigger challenges. he was simply zoned out in that series.

i know you think kohli is crap and all the hype is for nothing but facts speak otherwise. the guy is easily the top cricketer of this generation and will be remembered as the most iconic player of this decade. not your great match winner warner.

Zoned out because bowling quality was beyond his comprehension. Needed that Sri Lanka series to bring him back into the "zone."

 

[Sachin136]

Zoned out because bowling quality was beyond his comprehension. Needed that Sri Lanka series to bring him back into the "zone."

Kohli has test centuries against Starc, Hazlewood, Broad, Anderson, Steyn, Philander, Morkel and Boult.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Kohli has test centuries against Starc, Hazlewood, Broad, Anderson, Steyn, Philander, Morkel and Boult.

Wow, great player.

 

[Leo23]

Zoned out because bowling quality was beyond his comprehension. Needed that Sri Lanka series to bring him back into the "zone."

he is a human not a machine

you have every excuse for every failure of warner but one bad series for kohli is a weak attack basher

kohli is an atg and you know it. you are also aware that you judge him differently compared to other batsman and he needs to score a 100 every innings to satisfy you

but the likes of warner can fail series after series in tough conditions and it is not a big deal. imagine if kohli would have had the away record of warner,who has pathetic averages in india,sri lanka,new zealand and the west indies. you would have roasted him.

the double standards are comical.

 

[Leo23]

Wow, great player.

indeed he is.and twice as great warner

 

[Chief Destroyer]

indeed he is.and twice as great warner

Yeah, I agree. Warner is twice as great.

 

[Leo23]

Yeah, I agree. Warner is twice as great.

only in your dreams. kohli's left leg will average more in sri lanka,west indies,new zealand and india.

 

[Syed1]

only in your dreams. kohli's left leg will average more in sri lanka,west indies,new zealand and india.

Hahahaha so averaging more in Sri Lanka, West Indies, New Zealand and home proves that Kohli is the better batsman???? LMAO

 

[Syed1]

Glad Kohli needs to play against minnows Lanka and Windies and perennially neither-here-nor-there New Zealand to bump up his average

 

[Leo23]

Hahahaha so averaging more in Sri Lanka, West Indies, New Zealand and home proves that Kohli is the better batsman???? LMAO

kohli has performed better than warner in more countries. what does it tell you?

the answer to this...even a kindergarten kid can figure out.

even you know that kohli is much better than warner. but yeah carry on trolling.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

only in your dreams. kohli's left leg will average more in sri lanka,west indies,new zealand and india.

How many game winning centuries does Kohli have outside of Asia against the home side in ODIs?

 

[Leo23]

How many game winning centuries does Kohli have outside of Asia against the home side in ODIs?

india's bowling attack outside asia is weak. much weaker than australia's.

i am not here to teach you basic cricket my friend. he has centuries in all countries except south africa where he has an 89* and hasn't played many odis any way.

it is not his fault that the bowlers could not deliver to make his hundreds "match winning". now he can't take wickets too can he?

 

[Sachin136]

How many game winning centuries does Kohli have outside of Asia against the home side in ODIs?

That is a ridiculous qualifier. Sachin and Zaheer Abbas have 1 century in a won match in Australia, England or South Africa. That is the same as Shehzad. Tharanga has 2. The highest is Jayasuriya with 4.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

india's bowling attack outside asia is weak. much weaker than australia's.

i am not here to teach you basic cricket my friend. he has centuries in all countries except south africa where he has an 89* and hasn't played many odis any way.

it is not his fault that the bowlers could not deliver to make his hundreds "match winning". now he can't take wickets too can he?

The answer is not even one. In tests, bowling attacks can prevent you from winning but in ODIs where targets are set and he's been in plenty of situation where he could've won it for his team but alas.

 

[babajee]

kohli is good yes. however some people overhype him to no ends.

“king kohli master of chase”

well we’ve all seen what the master of chase has to offer when it really matters

 

[akki]

kohli is good yes. however some people overhype him to no ends.

“king kohli master of chase”

well we’ve all seen what the master of chase has to offer when it really matters

He has most centuries during chases. You havnt seen him chasing much .

 

[mak36]

Kohli averaged 9 in that series so I'm sure he did a lot of watching.

Leo walked into that one.

)

 

[akki]

i have no idea why indians even debate about cricket with pakistan any more and especially about batting. They compare and even their ex cricketers compare forget normal average pakistani here , sachin to umar akmal or shejad to kohli.
India is n.o 1 in tests for so long and many times and n.o 1 in odi in world. we will not discuss cricket with pakistan untill the gap remains this much between both teams in rankings-

 

[mak36]

india's bowling attack outside asia is weak. much weaker than australia's.

i am not here to teach you basic cricket my friend. he has centuries in all countries except south africa where he has an 89* and hasn't played many odis any way.

it is not his fault that the bowlers could not deliver to make his hundreds "match winning". now he can't take wickets too can he?

[MENTION=141557]Chief Destroyer[/MENTION] has forgotten more about cricket than you will ever know.

Show a little respect, kid.

 

[kingusama92]

How many game winning centuries does Kohli have outside of Asia against the home side in ODIs?

I have refuted this point countless times.

Take their recent tour to AUS for example.

He averaged 56+ but they lost the series.

91 at Perth (IND loses)
117 at Melbourne (IND loses)
106 at Canberra (IND loses)

Was it his fault the bowlers couldn't defend 309 in Perth?

Was it his fault the team couldn't defend 295 in Melbourne?

Was it his fault AUS hit 348 in Canberra making it a near impossible chase?

 

[Chief Destroyer]

I have refuted this point countless times.

Take their recent tour to AUS for example.

He averaged 56+ but they lost the series.

91 at Perth (IND loses)
117 at Melbourne (IND loses)
106 at Canberra (IND loses)

Was it his fault the bowlers couldn't defend 309 in Perth?

Was it his fault the team couldn't defend 295 in Melbourne?

Was it his fault AUS hit 348 in Canberra making it a near impossible chase?

Mediocre totals on ultra flat pitches against B and C grade attacks. Even if I ignore that, he does not have one game winning century against the big dogs away from home. I cannot ignore that.

 

[wrongun]

No Maxwell, big improvement in batting performance.

I'd like to see Travis head in there somewhere too.

Before the series I said 4:1 or 3:2 if an Ozzy manages to win one on their own with a super display.

So far it looks like 4:1 unless Cummins rips the top order or Smith goes bananas.

 

[kingusama92]

Mediocre totals on ultra flat pitches against B and C grade attacks. Even if I ignore that, he does not have one game winning century against the big dogs away from home. I cannot ignore that.

It's all about context.

He hit three potential match-winning knocks but his bowlers messed things up. And that's one series.

The standards are a tad unfair regardless...

If he had scored a match-winning century, it automatically becomes a "B and C grade attack" or an "ultra flat" pitch.

This is similar to the criticism he receives for performing against SL/BANG in ICC knockout matches. How is a team weak when that team is in form and made an ICC knockout game?

 

[lehen]

This loss pin points the problems existing in Indian batting, leadership is missing, decisions are taken without back up plans and personal blunders are a plenty, more such defeats to come if things don't change.This should have been chased within 45th over

 

[Ellipsism]

I have refuted this point countless times.

Take their recent tour to AUS for example.

He averaged 56+ but they lost the series.

91 at Perth (IND loses)
117 at Melbourne (IND loses)
106 at Canberra (IND loses)

Was it his fault the bowlers couldn't defend 309 in Perth?

Was it his fault the team couldn't defend 295 in Melbourne?

Was it his fault AUS hit 348 in Canberra making it a near impossible chase?

Do you know who the bowlers were from Australia?

Boland, Paris, Richardson and Hastings... That's a C grade attack if ever I did see one.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

It's all about context.

He hit three potential match-winning knocks but his bowlers messed things up. And that's one series.

The standards are a tad unfair regardless...

If he had scored a match-winning century, it automatically becomes a "B and C grade attack" or an "ultra flat" pitch.

This is similar to the criticism he receives for performing against SL/BANG in ICC knockout matches. How is a team weak when that team is in form and made an ICC knockout game?

You're going all over the place. Stick to the topic. Match-winning knocks would be winning the game and no 295 and 309 are not match-winning totals on those pitches if you'd actually watched. Australia laid them out as if it were a club game or something. Even the Indians knew they were way below par.

 

[kingusama92]

You're going all over the place. Stick to the topic. Match-winning knocks would be winning the game and no 295 and 309 are not match-winning totals on those pitches if you'd actually watched. Australia laid them out as if it were a club game or something. Even the Indians knew they were way below par.

Since 2007, the highest score in Perth is 316. IND scored 309. The average score in Perth is somewhere around 270-280.

In MCG's long ODI history, only 12 games have went past 300+ (most not even involving AUS). The average score is once again in the 270-280 region.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Since 2007, the highest score in Perth is 316. IND scored 309. The average score in Perth is somewhere around 270-280.

In MCG's long ODI history, only 12 games have went past 300+ (most not even involving AUS). The average score is once again in the 270-280 region.

Average scores cannot apply when the pitches are so vastly different than their usual nature. Anyway, all you're targeting is one series in once country when I clearly am giving him more leeway, his damn career. He hasn't scored one. That's the end of it. This simply cannot be argued and like others you're going in circles.

 

[kingusama92]

Do you know who the bowlers were from Australia?

Boland, Paris, Richardson and Hastings... That's a C grade attack if ever I did see one.

So once again goal posts shift.

This was one example. I was trying to paint a picture of IND's bowling away from home.

Kohli's Averages (AWAY)

In NZ: 58.20
In SL: 53.87
In AUS: 43.27
In WI: 55.60
In BANG: 90.66
In ZIM: 53.75

In ENG: 32.33 (This is undoubtedly a place he struggles)

In SA: 37.33 (BUT in 2011 he averaged 48+ in the series)

Now think about it.

A man with these kinds of averages AWAY from home doesn't have a match-winning century. Why is that the case? Is it his lack of quality? Is everyone putting out weak bowlers or "c grade attacks?"

The answer is clearly the bowling. They fail him time and time again.

 

[kingusama92]

Average scores cannot apply when the pitches are so vastly different than their usual nature. Anyway, all you're targeting is one series in once country when I clearly am giving him more leeway, his damn career. He hasn't scored one. That's the end of it. This simply cannot be argued and like others you're going in circles.

Fair point.

But it's not an upwards trend. The scores aren't getting larger.

Most of the highest scores in Perth occurred in 2007. Since then the scores have settled in the 260-270 range. 309 by IND was actually rare.

And I mentioned examples above of his AWAY averages.

I was just giving one example. There are many others where the same has happened.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

India just doesn't have the ruthlessness of the Aussies of 2000s to blank out even good sides 5-0.

Australia rarely blanked teams 5-0 even at their absolute peak. No idea what you are talking about.

 

[dauntless]

I have really lost interest in indian cricket.I used to follow the team passionately but now it's really lost.
It seems india is playing really good.kudos to them for winning the series.