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Ayodhya/Babri verdict

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For me all Gods are the same, assumptions.

Anyways, thanks for asking.

Good one mate.

Leave it up to Ram & Allah to decide. Anyway they did not do anything when their respective place of worship was going down:-)

So when they didnt bothered why the humans should. Happy that there was not a spot of incidence after the verdict.
 
Time to step out of lala LAND, the invading Mughal barbarians set the precendent for demolishing places of worship

Desecration and even destruction of temples was not solely carried out by Muslim rulers in the Indian sub-continent. There are many examples one can cite. To take just one, Indra III - a Rashtrakuta monarch - destroyed the temple of Kalapriya, situated near the Yamuna River. This was early in the tenth century.

Its really laughable only a handfull of Pakistanis have Mughal blood in em rest were just forced converts and they think they are decendants of an ancient Turkish race LOL.

Forced conversion is not really a persuasive argument as to why many Hindus converted to Islam. Whilst no doubt there were instances of forced conversion, the theory fails to explain why the greatest conversion took place in the regions on the fringes of political power during Muslim rule and not the upper Gangetic Plain, where political and military force was much greater.

Generally over the centuries of Muslim rule, it is difficult to uphold the argument that there were systematic ‘state’ efforts to forcibly convert the mass of inhabitants of South Asia to Islam. Muslims remained an overall minority in South Asia in part for this reason.
 
That analogy will justify everything after the' original sin' on that piece of land.

Not really when we're talking about the demolishing of holy places in 1992 within the sub continent, the obvious conclusion to be made was that if the mosque in india hadn't been demolished the temples in pakistan which were apparently demolished wouldn't have been demolished either.


I will suggest the supreme court to invite some of your legal luminaries to set the balance right when the appeal is heard

Or maybe all you need are judges that aren't biased and involved so directly in the case, i thought that much would be pretty obvious.



Might be a practical way forward. Will you have the case heard in Allahabad.

I was thinking more along the lines of a plebiscite, i'm not sure where i've heard that before though

Most of the muslim organizations in India are either happy with the verdict or they want to move to supreme court by respecting the high court verdict.

Even Few youth muslim organizations have even suggested to give the entire land for hindu temple and take a new land to re-build the mosque

All that proves is that's the hindus who created/ create the trouble/riots and as long as you appease them then there is no trouble which sets a really bad example.
 
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Not really when we're talking about the demolishing of holy places in 1992 within the sub continent, the obvious conclusion to be made was that if the mosque in india hadn't been demolished the temples in pakistan which were apparently demolished wouldn't have been demolished either.
I don't think you understood what I said.

Or maybe all you need are judges that aren't biased and involved so directly in the case, i thought that much would be pretty obvious.
and the the single point test of their being unbiased will be that they deliver a judgement to your liking.
 
Not really when we're talking about the demolishing of holy places in 1992 within the sub continent, the obvious conclusion to be made was that if the mosque in india hadn't been demolished the temples in pakistan which were apparently demolished wouldn't have been demolished either.


Newton's law seems to be unbalanced here. 200 temples for 1 mosque.
Anyway, the point is secularism is a path most difficult to follow. We are trying to follow that. I would not say we have achieved it but we will one day.
Iam taking glass as half full. Iam atleast proud to say that we had a muslim judge amoung 3 who gave verdict and their verdicts almost matches if read carefully thats a signal of secularism in the system. Iam proud of the fact that Hindus helping muslims restoring the mosque in India
for example
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/hindus-help-muslims-restore-mosque-in-karnataka/132167-3.html

Iam proud of the talk amoung muslims that they will quit entire land for Ram janmabhoomi as a goodwill gesture.

Well, there are other things Iam not proud of like Gujrat and 92 babri and no Indians are. None of them defending those acts in this forum or anywhere else.
 
Desecration and even destruction of temples was not solely carried out by Muslim rulers in the Indian sub-continent. There are many examples one can cite. To take just one, Indra III - a Rashtrakuta monarch - destroyed the temple of Kalapriya, situated near the Yamuna River. This was early in the tenth century.



Forced conversion is not really a persuasive argument as to why many Hindus converted to Islam. Whilst no doubt there were instances of forced conversion, the theory fails to explain why the greatest conversion took place in the regions on the fringes of political power during Muslim rule and not the upper Gangetic Plain, where political and military force was much greater.

Generally over the centuries of Muslim rule, it is difficult to uphold the argument that there were systematic ‘state’ efforts to forcibly convert the mass of inhabitants of South Asia to Islam. Muslims remained an overall minority in South Asia in part for this reason.

The arguement I am trying to make was that most of those Mughal leaders sure made an attempt to convert as many as they could to Muslims by means of raising taxes for non muslims, ofcourse forced conversions and by other means such as the destructions of Hindu places of worship increasing the hardships for India's 'TRUE' citizens the hindus, let me also add; India's very own caste systems.. The issue here was never really about Mughal's attempting to convert hindus to muslims, Sameer was pointing out that this talk by Pakistanis about how 'we' use to rule you (hindus) is not true. 'we' do not equate to majority of what is now Pakistanis rather it was the Mughals a different ethnic race who were in charge and not the then citizens of what is now India who became muslims under the Mughal rule which are now Pakistanis....Just because you guys all read the Quran doesnt make you something you are not....
 
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So now Hindus are comparing Pakistanis destroying empty temples to active mosques in India?

The only active temple destroyed by Pakistani islamic party after 1992 (which is similar to BJP in India but without anypower) was later on rebuld by them and they also apologized. While on the other hand court have awarded the very same people the land they destroyed.

But keep on going how Indian Muslims are happy with the verdict, lol at secular India.
 
While on the other hand court have awarded the very same people the land they destroyed. .

lol, how many times do we have to make clear that this case has nothing whatsoever to do with happened in 1992? This case would have come before the court and a decision would have been rendered upon it even if the mosque still stood. It concerned four title suits, the first of which was filed in the late forties or early fifties. And one of the organizations which filed a suit first brought the case to court in 1885, during the British Raj. This was in the aftermath of a riot over this very same issue in 1853. Stop acting as if there was no controversy about this or that this was a non-issue until 1992.

There is a separate case pending for the despicable actions of those extremists who tore down the mosque.

The only active temple destroyed by Pakistani islamic party after 1992 (which is similar to BJP in India but without anypower) was later on rebuld by them and they also apologized.

So, your defense for the hundreds of temples that were demolished in retaliation is that only one of them was active? If you wish to make that argument, then how about the fact that the Babri Masjid had been inactive for decades when it was demolished? Does that sound like a fair excuse for their actions?

And I don't believe your claim that only one of the temples had been active.

Today protesters attacked five temples in Karachi and hurled rocks and set fire to 25 temples in towns across the southern province of Sind, where 95 percent of the Hindus in Pakistan live. In Sukkur, a town in Sind, the police fired tear gas to disperse a crowd that attacked shops owned by Hindus.

This is excerpted from a news article from 1992 - http://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/08/world/pakistanis-attack-30-hindu-temples.html.

Do you honestly expect to me to believe that those 25 temples were inactive considering, as the article states, 95% of the Hindus in Pakistan live in that province?
 
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So now Hindus are comparing Pakistanis destroying empty temples to active mosques in India?

I don't support destroying any mosque or temple.

But your statement of active mosque is not correct. Do you know when was the last this mosque was used for prayer?

This dispute is been going on for last 100 years or more and the case was first filed in court 60 years back.

After 30-40 years it was Rajiv who tried to open it for prayer for some time. But as you can see most of the last 50 + years its not active.
 
So now Hindus are comparing Pakistanis destroying empty temples to active mosques in India?

The only active temple destroyed by Pakistani islamic party after 1992 (which is similar to BJP in India but without anypower) was later on rebuld by them and they also apologized. While on the other hand court have awarded the very same people the land they destroyed.

But keep on going how Indian Muslims are happy with the verdict, lol at secular India.

Read this.

Fresh moves afoot for out-of-court settlement of Ayodhya issue

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...ment-of-Ayodhya-issue/articleshow/6677617.cms

AYODHYA: Fresh moves appear to be afoot to resolve the Ayodhya dispute out of court, three days after the Allahabad High Court verdict in the case.

Mohammad Hashim Ansari, one of the main litigants in the title suits, on Sunday met Mahant Gyan Das of Hanumanghari who is also President of Akhil Bhartiya Akhara Parishad to explore the possibility of an amicable solution.
Though Mahant Gyan Das refused to divulge details, 90-year-old Ansari said: "I have initiated the move after being asked by the Sunni Central Wakf Board."

During an hour-long closed door meeting between Gyan Das and Ansari at Hanumanghari, famous Lord Hanuman temple near the makeshift temple on the disputed site, discussions revolved around ways to chalk out an agreement on the 60-year-old temple-mosque dispute.

"Akhil Bhartiya Akhara Parishad will play the role of a mediator and Gyan Das will talk with Nirmohi Akhara (another key party in the dispute)," Ansari told PTI, adding that the Akhara President was ready for this.

"This issue will be decided in Ayodhya itself and time for an amicable solution has come," he added.

Waqf Board counsel Zafaryab Gilani, however, said he was not aware of any such move. The Board had said they would challenge the verdict in the Supreme Court.

Nirmohi Akahara, Vaishnavite sect among the Hindus, has been given one-third of the disputed site in Ayodhya by the Allahabad High Court in its majority verdict on Thursday.

The other two-thirds portion has been given equally to be shared by the Wakf Board and the side representing Ram Lalla (baby Lord Ram).

The Nirmohi Akhara's share will include that part which is shown by the words 'Ram Chabutra' and 'Sita Rasoi' in the outer periphery of the site.

Soon after the verdict, Ansari had called for burying the dispute and making "a fresh start", a view shared by 84-year-old Mahant Bhaskar Das of Nirmohi Akhara.
 
we had a muslim judge amoung 3 who gave verdict and their verdicts almost matches if read carefully thats a signal of secularism

LUCKNOW: Justice SU Khan of the Allahabad High Court in his Ayodhya judgment Thursday said that no temple was demolished for building the Babri mosque and it was constructed over the ruins of temples.

The other two judges on the bench were of the view that the Babri mosque was constructed after demolition of a Hindu temple.

Justice Khan in his observation said that for a very long time till the construction of the mosque it was believed by Hindus that somewhere in a very large area, of which the premises in dispute is a very small part, the birth place of Lord Ram was situated.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...sque-Justice-S-U-Khan/articleshow/6663364.cms
 
Brought some sanity

yea we see the sanity left in your culture thanks to the british rule...another few decades and the remaining culture you guys have left today would be gone too...walk around bombay's young generation and its clearly seen what little amout of true indian culture is left...traditional values have been lost under the hollaaa of 'superior' western values...

and if u didnt care if the british rules you then why did you help in kicking them out...a Pakistan and 'british ruled india' on the other side would be less headache for us in the long run...
 
http://www.jafariyanews.com/2k5_news/april/12hindusazadari_orissa.htm

hindus and muslims have by and large co existed peacefully in india yes, barring the flare ups that occur every so often. hope we can minimise these incidents in the future . also , there are people who discriminate against muslims, that has to go if we are to advance truly into the 21's century. this has to involve a change in deep seated misconceptions about muslims, i am hopeful that with more education this will change. muslims also need to increase their level of education and get out of the ghetto mentality. its a long process but lets hope the leaders of the nation can get us there.


oh please stop with this co-existance bullcrap...'appeasement' is the word that describes this non sense not 'co-existance'...as long as you are on the good side of the majority we let you live...the minute you create noise we burn you down...

indian muslims are in denail...and the funny thing is india has prominent muslims in the spotlight to show 'how nice' they are to muslims...the stars in bollywood...lmao...i am sorry but anybody who goes to temples or has temples in their houses is completely doing shirk in my opinion...God knows best but that goes against the main foundations of the islamic religion PERIOD - no matter what tolerance BS you present or what ever justification your mind can come up with
 
For the nth time in this thread itself, they are two separate cases. :facepalm:

hmm how long does it take for a case to be resolved that involves destruction of a building and has multiple photo and video accounts as proof...your judical system is something...18 years and still no verdict on that case LOL...any chance of a decision in this century?
 
So babar or Mir baqi was right to demolish the temple?

Proof?

so you are able to somehow convince the court that this took place 600 years ago and is thus the right of the Hindus to have their land back...LOL...but in the same regard the torture that takes place in Kashmir everyday has no case in the same judicial system...

first of all what happ 600 years ago was under a different govt / rule (and this is if your claims of a temple being demolished was correct)...INDIA was formed in 1947 and thats a fact - the indian government and its laws were established in 1947 and thats a fact...under this constitution the mosque stood for 45 years and was brought down by criminals some of who had clear ties to government officials (classic anit it)...where is your current constitution? oh you put it all aside to decide on a claim from 600 years ago that has no credible proof besides faith

on these basis - the red indians get all their land back and their temples back in America HAHAHAHHAHA

on these basis - a lot of current civilizations should pack up and leave and hand that lands back to their original owners...what baloney

the point is India is a secular nation extablished in 1947 with a brand new spanking constitution...first you do nothing to stop the destruction of the mosque and to punish those that did it but then to make matters worse you go back and decide on a case dating back 600 years ago...what was your awesome judicial system doing for 45 years since 1947??? took them long enough to decide on something that is apparently so clear... LOL

cut the crap and for once be straight face when you stab your neighbor...
 
were you actually foaming at the mouth when you were typing this?:gul

let me break this down for you

WE DON"T CARE, vast majority of indians are satisfied by the judgement of the court- except for the fundamentalist hindus and muslims ( and some pakistanis ;). Thankfully these people are a minority albiet a very shrill vocal and annoying minority.

You should seriously worry more about the humiliation and degradation your bretheren in pakistan are being subjected to by the americans and by islamic terrorists of all types. Leave the indian muslims alone, they don't need your false sense of outrage and humiliation, thank you very much.

and again i would rather be 2nd class citizen in india( according to you) than first class citizen in pak. how about them apples?

well as muslims we do care about all other muslims...bc in Islam being a muslim comes first and your nationality second....something Muslims in India need to get into their heads if they don't know yet...so if a mosque is brought down in china its my problem and if its brought down in Pakistan...its still my problem and i am gonna care about it...

but yea no one is asking you to be a citizen in Pakistan...and no pakistani is dying to be an indian...so have fun on your side
 
hmm how long does it take for a case to be resolved that involves destruction of a building and has multiple photo and video accounts as proof...your judical system is something...18 years and still no verdict on that case LOL...any chance of a decision in this century?

Yeah, our judicial system is slow, atleast it does its work even if it takes a long time to get to it, unlike some others.

And this aint the only case that the courts have to look into either.
 
well as muslims we do care about all other muslims...bc in Islam being a muslim comes first and your nationality second....something Muslims in India need to get into their heads if they don't know yet...so if a mosque is brought down in china its my problem and if its brought down in Pakistan...its still my problem and i am gonna care about it...

but yea no one is asking you to be a citizen in Pakistan...and no pakistani is dying to be an indian...so have fun on your side

and 7th century ideas doesn't necessarily work in the 21st century, better you get that into your head.

Ummah is a cool empire building concept just like Alexander's vision of the world under him, but you know what, not all things go according to plan, so you have got to adapt....
 
and 7th century ideas doesn't necessarily work in the 21st century, better you get that into your head.

Ummah is a cool empire building concept just like Alexander's vision of the world under him, but you know what, not all things go according to plan, so you have got to adapt....

Reluctantly, i have to agree to this. We live in 21st century and the rules that were followed in a desert in 7th century cannot be retained for forever. Every culture and religions adapts and there is no harm in Muslims adapting accordingly to the law of the government they reside in. I know lots of Muslims in many places who consider themselves Canadian/British/Indian first before they call themselves Muslims. It's not a question of doing the right or wrong thing. It is simply about being more nationalistic to the country you live in.
 
Reluctantly, i have to agree to this. We live in 21st century and the rules that were followed in a desert in 7th century cannot be retained for forever. Every culture and religions adapts and there is no harm in Muslims adapting accordingly to the law of the government they reside in. I know lots of Muslims in many places who consider themselves Canadian/British/Indian first before they call themselves Muslims. It's not a question of doing the right or wrong thing. It is simply about being more nationalistic to the country you live in.

2 different things...no one is asking you to not follow the rules where you live in...actually you are told to follow the rules of the nation you are living in...the point is getting ur priorities right...saying that oh our muslims have no problem with it so who are you to say anything...well a mosque is a mosque...its NOT INDIAN...its a mosque and any mosque's destruction should be the problem of all muslims alike
 
and 7th century ideas doesn't necessarily work in the 21st century, better you get that into your head.

Ummah is a cool empire building concept just like Alexander's vision of the world under him, but you know what, not all things go according to plan, so you have got to adapt....

HAHA...and the caste system is legendary? lol 55% of ppl living in the slums in bombay is ur idea of the 21st century whereas the rich keep on getting filthy rich? please fix your own little house before you start commenting on a concept that's clearly too big for your head...HINT: start with fixing Kashmir

p.s. don't comeback with well we are better off than Pakistan...cheap way of getting out of things...i don't declare Pakistan as the next best thing since sliced bread like some indians do for india...
 
Reluctantly, i have to agree to this. We live in 21st century and the rules that were followed in a desert in 7th century cannot be retained for forever. Every culture and religions adapts and there is no harm in Muslims adapting accordingly to the law of the government they reside in. I know lots of Muslims in many places who consider themselves Canadian/British/Indian first before they call themselves Muslims. It's not a question of doing the right or wrong thing. It is simply about being more nationalistic to the country you live in.

oh and btw do post your 21st century version of rules that you think are 'good' for us today...bc apparently you are too good to follow what the greatest human being in the world was following
 
Yeah, our judicial system is slow, atleast it does its work even if it takes a long time to get to it, unlike some others.

And this aint the only case that the courts have to look into either.


SLOW? LMAO...its wasn't slow to punish the scapegoat for the mumbai terrorist attack...

btw what happ to that case about hindus actually blowing up a train and how it was intially blamed to be muslims and then some police officer found out it was actually hindus and then he got shot point blank...what happ to that case...is that still in court?
 
HAHA...and the caste system is legendary? lol 55% of ppl living in the slums in bombay is ur idea of the 21st century whereas the rich keep on getting filthy rich? please fix your own little house before you start commenting on a concept that's clearly too big for your head...HINT: start with fixing Kashmir

Did i encourage caste system, did i give my vote of approval for it?

55% living in slums or whatever, are you know preaching socialism to me know?

fixing Kashmir : Why fix something that aint broken? ;-)

p.s. don't comeback with well we are better off than Pakistan...cheap way of getting out of things...i don't declare Pakistan as the next best thing since sliced bread like some indians do for india...

How would you, if you dont have any sense of nationalism? Isn't it more important for you to worry abt a mosque destroyed in india, than the current state of pakistan?

please fix your own little house before you start commenting on a concept that's clearly too big for your head...

Ironical that you say that. Secualrism, Nationalism, or Socialism for that matter, are concepts that are too big for your head...
 
SLOW? LMAO...its wasn't slow to punish the scapegoat for the mumbai terrorist attack...

btw what happ to that case about hindus actually blowing up a train and how it was intially blamed to be muslims and then some police officer found out it was actually hindus and then he got shot point blank...what happ to that case...is that still in court?

Scapegoat : You sir, are in lala land.

He has been sentenced, and is in jail, is trying to appeal the verdict.

You know what, our establishment is so slow, that they dont even execute the sentenced, instead the taxpayer's money is wasted on these criminals, in their appeals and what not. It is a pain, i know, but what to do, it is how the laws have been framed...
 
well as muslims we do care about all other muslims...bc in Islam being a muslim comes first and your nationality second....something Muslims in India need to get into their heads if they don't know yet...so if a mosque is brought down in china its my problem and if its brought down in Pakistan...its still my problem and i am gonna care about it...

maybe thats part of the problem, why should i have any allegiance with islamic terrorists or jehadists even though they are muslim, infact i would work wholeheartedely for the downfall of such idiots , so the concept of islamic brotherhood is bogus imo. and no i have no interest in supporting the pak/bangles cricket team carte blanche cuz they happen to be muslims, its a laughable concept imo.
 
2 different things...no one is asking you to not follow the rules where you live in...actually you are told to follow the rules of the nation you are living in...the point is getting ur priorities right...saying that oh our muslims have no problem with it so who are you to say anything...well a mosque is a mosque...its NOT INDIAN...its a mosque and any mosque's destruction should be the problem of all muslims alike

Okay do something about it then .... You've woken up after 18 years and that too with a mere post on an online forum, you are thinking as if you are some MLK for Muslims .... Anyways - I think you guys are un-necessarily thinking too much about it ... If you think its an all-muslim problem, I am sure such a great religion has official and legal channels to address that. If you want to use those channels, well and good. If you don't then I am afraid merely verbal frothing on an online forum is not good enough for a problem that you think is a problem for entire Muslim brethern ...
 
Interesting cover story in Outlook on the Muslim reaction from the oridnary citizens:

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?267401

The Scent Of A Betrayal
Acceptance, anger, fear is what the aam Muslim feels post-verdict
Smruti Koppikar , Debarshi Dasgupta , Sugata Srinivasaraju , Prarthna Gahilote , Madhavi Tata , Saikat Datta , John Mary , Snigdha Hasan , K.S. Shaini , Sharat Pradhan

If normalcy is the mere absence of violence, then even the most volatile parts of the country can be said to have retained their normal demeanour in the days following the Allahabad High Court judgement on the Ramjanmabhoomi-Babri Masjid title suits. If, however, normalcy implies a socio-cultural atmosphere of mutual respect, trust and goodwill among people, underscored by the absence of subterranean tensions, then parts of India have not been normal at all.

The Ayodhya judgement, it is said, is less about justice and more about a loaded compromise. Clearly, it found favour with Hindutva groups, their supporters, and even other segments of India’s majority population. The jubilation and self-congratulation were writ large on the face of many a Hindutva leader as news of the judgement trickled in; almost in concert, they reiterated the project a “bhavya Ram mandir”, and desired that Muslim community representatives come forth for a “settlement”. In the celebration and prevailing “normalcy”, it may be possible—but not prudent—to ignore the disquiet among Muslims.


Mumbai: Hasina Khan, activist and prime force behind Awaaz-e-Niswaan: “We have no option but to accept the judgement. But it’s as if it says ‘You (the Muslims) have also been given something, so don’t make a noise’. There’s insecurity among Muslim youth.” (Photograph by Apoorva Salkade)

Among them, there’s an unmistakable sense of hurt and angst. Sometimes it comes across as acceptance, helpless or otherwise, of the judgement and ensuing situation; often it translates into seething anger at the one democratic institution they believed would give them justice; mixed in between is trepidation that the judgement may have paved the way for “settling” ownership issues about other disputed shrines in the country. The Ayodhya judgement, much like the demolition of December 6, 1992, marks a moment in the Muslim psyche; many in the community see the demolition as a blow and the judgement as a betrayal.

“There was no justice done at all to the Muslim community. It’s very visibly a one-sided verdict; the distribution of land is all wrong, and there is no acknowledgement of the demolition at all,” thunders Rehana Salamat Sheikh, principal, Anjuman-i-Islam Allana English High School in Mumbai. Adds Hasina Khan, activist and prime force behind Awaaz-e-Niswaan, an organisation to raise awareness among Muslim women: “Our community has no option but to accept the decision but it tells us that the system itself is so biased. It’s as if the judgement says, ‘You (the Muslims) have also been given something, so don’t make a noise!’ There’s insecurity among Muslim youth.”


Hyderabad: “If judgements are based on faith,” says Mohammed Omer in Lad Bazaar, “then Charminar is mine, Mecca Masjid is mine, so is the Andhra Pradesh High Court.” (Photograph by P. Anil Kumar)

In the old Hyderabad city, Syed Osman Ghani, a 28-year-old medical shop owner, dismisses the judgement as a “chaar aana-baarah aana verdict” asking if India can truly be called secular now. “What will we do with the 1/3rd land?” he asks. At Lad Bazaar, Mohammed Omer declares: “If judgements are based on faith, then Charminar is mine, Mecca Masjid is mine, so is the Andhra Pradesh High Court.” Shakil Ahmed, young journalist-activist in Mumbai, puts it succinctly: “This is typical ‘jiski lathi uski bhains’. If Muslims haven’t protested or come out on the streets, it’s because they remember ’92-93 only too well; they only get the bullets.”

In Bangalore, architect Mohamed A. Subhan too reflects this angst. “Those who went to court did not ask for a partition but to confirm the ownership of the land,” he says. “The court has done everything else other than that. Take 50 more years, but resolve the ownership issue.” Quoting historians about “more than a dozen places in Ayodhya where Ram is claimed to have been born”, Subhan wonders how the court came to declare that “Ram was born below that dome”. In a sense, he’s putting into words sentiments that many in his community only whisper. In Benares, weaver Shafi Ali, 40, says: “In 1992, the government assured us that the Babri mosque will not be pulled down, but it was demolished. This time they promised us justice but Hindu belief was given weightage.”

Hurt is mixed with anger. B.F.H.R. Bijli, 65, retired chief engineer, Kerala Water Authority, says, “The judges ruled by faith, not evidence. Just like an occupying force, the fanatics had demolished the masjid. Like in war, the occupying forces dictate terms. If you can fight against the odds, fight, or submit.” That sense of submission is now taking root among many Muslims, especially the youth. “It’s now clear that like in the United States and Israel, the process of marginalising Muslims is well and truly under way in India too,” says Farooq Mapkar, wrongly accused in the ’92-93 riots in Mumbai and acquitted after 16 years of legal battle. “On judgement eve, Muslims were being counselled to keep peace, stay indoors and not hold meetings, imams and maulanas were asked not to talk about it, but the Shiv Sena newspaper was allowed to come out with repeat articles and stories of ’92, whipping up sentiment. Do you think we can’t see the administration is not even-handed?”

Hyderabad’s MIM MP Asaduddin Owaisi says the “prevailing peace is not to be confused with the sense of unease” that exists in the community. “How can we move on,” he asks, “Muslims have been reduced to second-class citizens”. Mumbai’s S.M. Malik, professional translator, manager and post-graduate in Arabic, declares that post-judgement, “Muslims are living with a third-grade identity”. He narrates an analogy, much cited recently in the press, that’s doing the rounds in several sections of the community: a Muslim body sought the restoration of the mosque in Shahidganj, Lahore, which had been demolished in the 18th century to build a gurudwara. The matter was resolved in a court, Sikhs were given their rights and the gurudwara still stands there. “If in an Islamic nation like Pakistan a religious minority can be given its due, why is this not possible in India that calls itself the largest democracy of the world?”


Delhi: Dildar Ahmed, a nylon net seller in Old Delhi, is among those who feel their angst might be addressed if the case went to the SC. “The case has moved forward,” he says, “it has somewhat blunted the urge among Muslims to fight for a mosque, but we will go the SC.” (Photograph by Sanjay Rawat)

The notion of equal citizenship seems to have taken a blow. The twin themes of marginalisation and second-class citizenship are difficult to miss even among those who have apparently “accepted” the judgement. Indeed, acceptance seems to be the most honourable way out for many in the community; even those who are angry say their angst may be addressed if and when the Sunni Waqf Board appeals in the Supreme Court, but right now they will have to simply accept the situation. Dildar Ahmed, a nylon net seller in old Delhi, typifies it: “The case has moved forward, it has somewhat blunted the urge among Muslims to fight for a mosque, but this will go to the SC.” Not far away, Mohammad Arif, date seller, says, “Go to the SC, but what can we expect—half of the disputed land?”

Adds J.S. Bandookwala, retired physics professor, Baroda University, and founder, Zidni Ilma Charitable Trust, which focuses on the education of Muslims, specially girls, “Given our problems, we can’t go on a confrontation with the RSS. At times we may be right but can’t go too far with our confrontation.”


Kozhikode, Kerala: 43-year-old Abdul Razak has taken the judgement in his stride, saying “it has averted communal clashes. Just imagine what would have happened if the verdict was different”. (Photograph by Ali Kovoor)

In Kozhikode, Abdul Razak, 43, has taken the judgement in his stride, saying “it has averted communal clashes. Just imagine what would have happened were the verdict different.” The Muslim on the street in Lucknow accepts the verdict, because, as daily wage-earner Meraj says, it “saved us from riots”. The intelligentsia find other reasons. Dr Mansoor Hasan, former head of cardiology department, King George’s Medical College, says: “Our acceptance should not be misconstrued as vindication of the condemnable demolition, but we need to move ahead.” Adds former high court judge and erstwhile Uttarakhand Lokayukta, S.H.A Raza, “The judges did cross certain limits, but the majority verdict could not have been better.”

If there’s a practical edge to the acceptance, there’s also a vulnerable helplessness. As Farzana Contractor (nee Khan), Mumbai-based editor of food magazine Upper Crust, reflects: “Our dignity which was lost post the razing of the Babri Masjid has not been restored, but nobody wants a repeat of that horrendous time. So the consensus is: swallow your pride and accept what is dished out.” Such resignation is true of Muslims in other cities too. In Bhopal, Shafique Khan, who works in Life Insurance Corporation, is satisfied with the judgement because it did not trigger off violence and mayhem.


Bangalore: Prof A.R. Kamruddin, a former advisor to UNESCO and director, Darul Umoor Tipu Sultan Research Centre, says, “This is not a problem between Hindus and Muslims, it’s a conflict between people with narrow political interests.” (Photograph by Nilotpal Baruah)

Bangalore’s N.A.M. Ismail, a journalist in his 30s, too is resigned. “The only thing is that the RSS should not claim victory and act patronisingly. There is one lingering question in my mind: could the title suit have been dismissed in that fashion?” Prof A.R. Kamruddin, a former advisor to UNESCO and director of the Darul Umoor Tipu Sultan Research Centre, and now in his 70s, says, “Since the judgement satisfies the egos of some people, we can now keep that as the basis. This is not a problem between Hindus and Muslims; it’s a conflict between people with narrow political interests.”

In Meerut, truck driver Yakoob Ali, scarred by the 1987 communal violence here and now feeling betrayed by the judgement, says, “It is cliched to say that we are all brothers but I want it to be our reality now. Let us accept.” Quick calculations tell him that each party will get at least 136 bighas of land. “That’s enough to build a beautiful mosque and also set up a small school. Let’s all build what we have to.” Mumbai’s Sohail Khandwani, board member of Mahim Dargah and Haji Ali Dargah, is satisfied that “nothing untoward happened, though there’s something in the hearts and minds of Muslims”.

Those Muslims who do not live in community mohallas or lead the typical Muslim life, however, harbour more genteel feelings at the outcome. Given their education, professional work, cosmopolitan lifestyles, they are perhaps more accommodating of the judgement. As Irfan Khan, former media professional and member of Muslims for Secular Democracy in Mumbai, avers, “It’s a political judgement but I believe a great burden has been lifted off our shoulders. This should be over now. Now, in fact, if the Hindutva brigade doesn’t build a temple or demands Kashi and Mathura, they will get exposed as troublemakers.” This section of Muslim opinion is not too keen that the Sunni Waqf Board approach the Supreme Court.


Meerut: Jalis-ud-din, a maulana at the Chhoti masjid in Maliyana, says, “This was a dispute between two brothers, a Hindu and a Muslim. Where did the third party come from? That is an aspect of the judgement I don’t understand.” (Photograph by Jitender Gupta)

Others too see the futility of approaching the apex court. Says Shabbeer Hosarwala, trade union leader and development officer, New India Assurance Company, “There’s no point in appealing to the SC. So what if it’s a one-sided judgement? At least, the land’s been well distributed. It is sad to get angry or disappointed over this. The common Muslim on the street does not want to waste any more time; this sentiment is more amongst those in social service and trusts.” Retired colonel Fasih Uddin Ahmed in Lucknow, in fact, calls the judgement “balanced”.

Yet, irrespective of their angst, relief or acceptance, there’s some trepidation that the judgement will open the proverbial Pandora’s box. “That’s our worry now,” says school principal Sheikh in Mumbai. S.M. Malik adds: “We may want to move on as a community, but it depends on the establishment. Radical Hindu groups may make a list of 3,000 more title disputes. For us, the Babri Masjid is an index case of several issues; that’s why we want a just decision. The same yardstick shouldn’t be replicated elsewhere.” In Benares, there is an edginess to the mandir-masjid debate. Shafi Ali says what happened of the Ayodhya site “will happen here too, it’s a matter of time”.

The mix of dismay and trepidation about the future is not limited to other disputed sites alone; it translates into implications of living in a predominantly Hindu society. As Mumbai-based writer and independent researcher Sameera Khan points out, “This judgement seems to legitimise the whole Hindu right wing’s claim and justifies their violent movement. It’s the way that movement has taken root in people’s minds and hearts and the venom I have seen spewed particularly on Muslims. I am today marked as a ‘Muslim’ and that identity seems to overshadow all my other identities. It often influences where I can live, work, study etc. I, and many other young Muslims, find this more hurtful and offensive than the judgement”.
 
well as muslims we do care about all other muslims...bc in Islam being a muslim comes first and your nationality second....something Muslims in India need to get into their heads if they don't know yet...so if a mosque is brought down in china its my problem and if its brought down in Pakistan...its still my problem and i am gonna care about it...

but yea no one is asking you to be a citizen in Pakistan...and no pakistani is dying to be an indian...so have fun on your side

no wonder there is blast in Pakistan other day since Muslim cares for other Muslim.

Sunni is after Shia because Muslims care for other Muslims.

Pakistan is not in position to take care of itself forget about taking care of others.

Learn to stand on your feet first before helping others

And yeah, stop poking in to neighbors house and you may have time to set your house in order
 
LUCKNOW: Justice SU Khan of the Allahabad High Court in his Ayodhya judgment Thursday said that no temple was demolished for building the Babri mosque and it was constructed over the ruins of temples.

The other two judges on the bench were of the view that the Babri mosque was constructed after demolition of a Hindu temple.

Justice Khan in his observation said that for a very long time till the construction of the mosque it was believed by Hindus that somewhere in a very large area, of which the premises in dispute is a very small part, the birth place of Lord Ram was situated.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...sque-Justice-S-U-Khan/articleshow/6663364.cms

I leave upto ur interpretation the way you interpret the holy books.

Iam happy there is a muslim judge amoung the 3 and that is enough for me to believe the toughest path India has taken of going secularistic will be achieved one day.
 
yea we see the sanity left in your culture thanks to the british rule...another few decades and the remaining culture you guys have left today would be gone too...walk around bombay's young generation and its clearly seen what little amout of true indian culture is left...traditional values have been lost under the hollaaa of 'superior' western values...

and if u didnt care if the british rules you then why did you help in kicking them out...a Pakistan and 'british ruled india' on the other side would be less headache for us in the long run...

Adopting Western culture is not a bad idea at all than the forced convertion of the 20% population that exists today which happened over 100's of years.

Atleast the west are developed and we are left underdeveloped :-(
 
Isn't it more important for you to worry abt a mosque destroyed in india, than the current state of pakistan?



, ..

yes it is more important to worry abt a mosque destroyed ( shaheed) in india, than the current state of pakistan!!!
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/oct/12/india-hindus-mosque-beliefs-dispute

Why should a high-court judgment about the ownership of the site of a provincial Indian mosque razed 18 years ago resonate across India? Because more hinges upon the just resolution of the Babri Masjid dispute than the fate of a mosque. The real estate in dispute is not the site on which the mosque once stood but the constitutional ground on which the Indian republic is built. This is an argument about India.

In December 1992 the mosque, which Hindus believed had been built on the birthplace of their deity Ram, was torn down in a single day by a crowd of Hindu activists. The demolition was the violent climax of a pan-Indian movement designed to assert the political supremacy of the country's religious majority. Nearly two decades later, the court judgment, by giving two-thirds of the mosque's site to Hindu litigants, seems to vindicate this majoritarian claim.

There are three big problems with the Allahabad high court's judgment. First, it recognises a prior Hindu claim to the site of a medieval mosque by relying on a report submitted by the Archaeological Survey of India. Citing the ASI's finding that its excavations had uncovered the remains of an earlier Hindu structure, the judges allow a sense of historical injury felt by some Hindus to become the basis of a modern legal claim.

Second, the judgment concedes that the religious beliefs of a rhetorically invoked Hindu majority, regardless of their historical truth, can be determining in a legal dispute. The judges rule that because Hindus believe that the birth place of Ram (epic hero and god) lay under the central dome of the demolished mosque, it is good in law to give that part of the mosque's site to the Hindu litigants. All three judges acknowledge that Hindu idols were furtively installed under the central dome in 1949, which is when Hindu worship first began inside the mosque – but this illegality and the subsequent criminal razing of the mosque count for nothing in their judgment. This is the third problem with the verdict. While the alleged medieval destruction of an ancient Hindu temple is central to its reasoning, the mosque demolition less than 20 years ago isn't even mentioned.
 
Interestingly the verdict is tomorrow on same day when Kartarpur opening is happening so i guess no coverage of Kartarpur in indian media tomorrow. I have a feel the verdict will be in favor of muslims to counter the narrative Pakistan have been building from last few months.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">you have just made a political comment. delete it immediately, otherwise legal action will be taken against you by <a href="https://twitter.com/amethipolice?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@amethipolice</a></p>— AMETHI POLICE (@amethipolice) <a href="https://twitter.com/amethipolice/status/1192884980885491717?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 8, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

:13:
 
I am confused, is this an actual police account threatening a journalist? Is making political comments illegal in India? Also what part of that comment is even close to being controversial?
 
Ayodhya verdict won’t be anybody’s victory or loss: PM Modi tweets

Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday urged people to “further strengthen the great tradition of peace, unity and goodwill of India” and not see the Supreme Court’s verdict in the Ram Janmabhoomi-Babri Masjid title suit on Saturday as victory or loss.

“The Supreme Court’s decision on Ayodhya is coming tomorrow. For the past few months, the matter was being heard continuously in the Supreme Court, the whole country was watching eagerly. During this period, the efforts made by all sections of the society to maintain an atmosphere of goodwill are greatly appreciated,” the Prime Minister said on Twitter in Hindi.

“Keeping the honour of the judiciary of the country paramount, all the sides of the society, socio-cultural organisations, all the parties who have made efforts to create a harmonious and positive atmosphere in the past are welcome. Even after the decision of the court, we all have to maintain harmony together,” he said.

“Whatever decision of the Supreme Court will come on Ayodhya, it will not be a victory or defeat for anyone. My appeal to the countrymen is that it should be the priority of all of us that this decision should further strengthen the great tradition of peace, unity and goodwill of India,” he added.

The Supreme Court is expected to pronounce its verdict at 10:30am on Saturday.

The five-judge bench of the Supreme Court heard a batch of petitions challenging the judgment of Allahabad High Court on September 30, 2010, trifurcating the disputed land in Ayodhya into three equal parts among Ram Lalla, Central Sunni Waqf Board, and Nirmohi Akhara.

These three parties, however, moved the top court challenging the high court verdict and sought the modification of its judgment.

The bench completed the daily hearings in the matter on October 16 and reserved its verdict that has been among India’s most sensitive and divisive political issues, which will now be delivered before Gogoi retires on November 17.

Hindus believe the 16th-century Babri Masjid was built over a temple dedicated to Hindu god Ram, whose birthplace is also considered to be at the site.

The mosque was demolished by a mob of thousands in 1992, triggering a cycle of violence and riots across India.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...modi-tweets/story-AQMyAsTBZvetWrrEpnwUvK.html
 
Interestingly the verdict is tomorrow on same day when Kartarpur opening is happening so i guess no coverage of Kartarpur in indian media tomorrow. I have a feel the verdict will be in favor of muslims to counter the narrative Pakistan have been building from last few months.

You never know, the stakes are real high to go against the Hindus. Could be a biased decision.
 
I have a feel the verdict will be in favor of muslims to counter the narrative Pakistan have been building from last few months.

Ideally that would stop the talk that India is an anti Muslim country stigma which Pakistan is trying to promote.. However Article 370 & Ayodhya was 2 of the main agenda's of the BJP prior to election.. So I am expecting the Ayodhya verdict to favor the temple construction with muslims vacating that area... We shall see, it would not surprise me if it went either way...
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">you have just made a political comment. delete it immediately, otherwise legal action will be taken against you by <a href="https://twitter.com/amethipolice?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@amethipolice</a></p>— AMETHI POLICE (@amethipolice) <a href="https://twitter.com/amethipolice/status/1192884980885491717?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 8, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

:13:

It’s seem like the journalist they threatened still has her tweet but the police department had to delete theirs. This backfired a bit for them. It’s still kind of scary though, if they can openly threaten a public figure, I wonder what they do with normal citizens.
 
Hope this gets over forever and govt. can move onto UCC. UCC will help with so many social problems and will bring in LGBT marriage and possibly even adoption for LGBT people.
 
Looks like Ram Temple will be built in the near future in Ayodhya where Babur destroyed the original temple..
 
As expected I knew that it's gonna happen,B.J.P will rule for next 15 years.
 
It’s seem like the journalist they threatened still has her tweet but the police department had to delete theirs. This backfired a bit for them. It’s still kind of scary though, if they can openly threaten a public figure, I wonder what they do with normal citizens.

Not only did they delete the tweet but they blocked her too :)) :danish

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr">Ok <a href="https://t.co/XDun64S7Rf">pic.twitter.com/XDun64S7Rf</a></p>— Rana Ayyub (@RanaAyyub) <a href="https://twitter.com/RanaAyyub/status/1192954185051967490?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 8, 2019</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
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