Ayodhya Ram Mandir: India PM Modi inaugurates Hindu temple on razed Babri mosque site [Update in post#488]

[Stewie]

Era is gone , that’s very fair yet we stick to religion and culture.
Please tell me the name of missiles in Pakistan whom are they named after?

You are now trying to equate naming of missiles with a religious majority trampling on a religious minority’s rights?

 

[cricketjoshila]

As usual right wing hindus conveniently skipping mentioning razing down an existing mosque on the premises belonging to Muslims which by definition makes Muslims everywhere a party to the issue (Pakistani or non Pakistani)

The disputed structure existed in India. It has nothing to do with any non Indian.

 

[BouncerGuy]

The disputed structure existed in India. It has nothing to do with any non Indian.

If something like this had happened in Pak, would you not condemn the act just because you are not Pakistani?

 

[Smbhayi]

There is evidence and ASI report said it in the supreme court.

Its said non-islamic structure, not temple.. it also said there's no evidence babari masjid build by demolishing that building..

 

[cricketjoshila]

If something like this had happened in Pak, would you not condemn the act just because you are not Pakistani?

Which temple was constructed by demolishing a mosque in Pakistan?

Which place in Pakistan is a place of pilgrimage of Islam and holds the same religious significance that Ayodhya holds for Hindus?

 

[BouncerGuy]

Which temple was constructed by demolishing a mosque in Pakistan?

Which place in Pakistan is a place of pilgrimage of Islam and holds the same religious significance that Ayodhya holds for Hindus?

So the place that has no significant history is not important and can be demolished anywhere right? Bro I am not talking about the significance of not, it is about moral values and religious oppression of minorities.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Its said non-islamic structure, not temple.. it also said there's no evidence babari masjid build by demolishing that building..

In the Supreme Court’s Ayodhya verdict announced Saturday, an Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) report released in 2003 played a key role. The report had stated that remains of a “Hindu structure” were found at the disputed Babri Masjid-Ram Janmabhoomi site.

As it ordered the construction of Ram temple, the apex court ruling, based on the ASI report, drew the inference that the “foundation of the (16th century) mosque was based on the walls of a large pre-existing structure that dates back to the twelfth century”. It also said the “recoveries were suggestive of a structure of Hindu religion origin”.

SC verdict refers to ASI report on 'Hindu structure' at Ayodhya site — this is what it says

In its order, Supreme Court refers to ASI’s 2003 findings that the Babri Masjid was ‘based on the walls of a large pre-existing structure’.

theprint.in

 

[Romali_rotti]

.. it also said there's no evidence babari masjid build by demolishing that building..

This I agree with, there was no evidence Babri Masjid was built by demolishing the structure on it previously.

The structure self destructed by itself so Babar's crew could build the mosque.

 

[Ahmed216]

BJP'S rise in India began after one of their top leaders led the demolition of a mosque, which resulted in nationwide riots and loss of lives and property. And ofcourse polarisation necessary for elections
So one can expect more of this method in coming years on different locations

 

[cricketjoshila]

So the place that has no significant history is not important and can be demolished anywhere right? Bro I am not talking about the significance of not, it is about moral values and religious oppression of minorities.

Religious significance isn't important?

That's the very reason why Ram Mandir has been constructed in Ayodhya. Its the birthplace of Bhagwan Ram.


That's why Gandhiji gave permission to dismantle the mosque in Somnath in 1949 and build a temple in its place. Because its a place of pilgrimage for Hindus.


Majority has rights too. Which Muslims are very good at expressing when they are in majority.

BJP'S rise in India began after one of their top leaders led the demolition of a mosque, which resulted in nationwide riots and loss of lives and property. And ofcourse polarisation necessary for elections
So one can expect more of this method in coming years on different locations

Incorrect.

BJP had 2 seats in 1984, it became 85 in 1989.

So BJP was growing before 1992 as well.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Which two? Some of your friends believe a temple existed under Taj Mahal and some even believe the Kaaba used to be a temple. When they finally climb on top of the Kaaba, will they perform the Adhan first before demolition?

Taj Mahal is ugly, but it should stand as a symbol of hindus magnanimity. Among the thousands temples demolished, I only want to reclaim 2 more, and am willing to be extremely large hearted for the rest.

Regarding Kaaba, even IF it was built on some temple, its importance to Muslims is much more, so I would support Kaaba even if it was in India, because of the importance it carries for Muslims.

Sadly muslims don't understand it. Babur or Meer Baki was not even an important historical figure in Islam, while Lord Ram is a very important figure for hindus, yet some of them whine.

Let there be more mosques, and let muslims thrive, but what is ours is ours. We have limits to our magnanimity.

 

[Ahmed216]

Incorrect.

BJP had 2 seats in 1984, it became 85 in 1989.

So BJP was growing before 1992 as well.

Ok can you elaborate on the reasons for its growth in 80's for my knowledge. As far as I know BJP'S rise resulted from divisions within Congress and deflections of their leaders to other parties. Whereas bjp adopted the hindutva approach and raised the issue of Ram temple and also included it in their 1989 manifesto.

 

[Stewie]

Which temple was constructed by demolishing a mosque in Pakistan?

Which place in Pakistan is a place of pilgrimage of Islam and holds the same religious significance that Ayodhya holds for Hindus?

A place like Kaaba has existed for the last 1400 odd years for Muslims as a holy place of pilgrimage.

Yet a historically significant place for Hindus who predate Muslims by thousands of years, happens to just show up over 500 years ago in Ayodhaya and that too allegedly!

There is no concrete evidence to suggest the venue of the shaheed Babri masjid is the exact location Ram was born at. There is no evidence to suggest the modern city of Ayodhaya even existed back then.

The only evidence found was related to the existence of an older building there. It could have been a temple, it could have been anything. Nothing solid except hear say that Ram was born there.

One would suspect Hindus would have made a big holy place where he was born. Such a place has been missing for thousands of years.

 

[I think therfore I am]

A place like Kaaba has existed for the last 1400 odd years for Muslims as a holy place of pilgrimage.

Yet a historically significant place for Hindus who predate Muslims by thousands of years, happens to just show up over 500 years ago in Ayodhaya and that too allegedly!

There is no concrete evidence to suggest the venue of the shaheed Babri masjid is the exact location Ram was born at. There is no evidence to suggest the modern city of Ayodhaya even existed back then.

The only evidence found was related to the existence of an older building there. It could have been a temple, it could have been anything. Nothing solid except hear say that Ram was born there.

One would suspect Hindus would have made a big holy place where he was born. Such a place has been missing for thousands of years.

There is no historical evidence up until a Englishman said theren MAY have been a non islamic structure here before.

 

[FearlessRoar]

A powerful Hindu group said several mosques in India were built over demolished Hindu temples, apparently hardening its stance in a decades-long sectarian dispute just days after a huge temple was inaugurated on the site of a razed mosque.

The comments from the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the ideological parent of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Hindu-nationalist party, come after Modi and the RSS chief led Monday's consecration of the temple on the site of a 16th-century mosque demolished by a Hindu mob in 1992.

The fight over claims to holy sites has divided Hindu-majority India, which has the world's third-largest Muslim population, since independence from British rule in 1947.

Four days after the temple was inaugurated in the northern city of Ayodhya, a lawyer for Hindu petitioners said the Archaeological Survey of India had determined that a 17th century mosque in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi, in Modi's parliamentary constituency, had been built over a destroyed a Hindu temple.

The Archaeological Survey did not respond to a request for comment.

Late on Friday, senior RSS leader Indresh Kumar questioned whether Varanasi's Gyanvapi mosque and three others, including the razed one in Ayodhya on the site where many Hindus believe Lord Ram was born, were mosques at all.

"Whether we should consider them mosques or not, the people of the country and the world should think about it," Kumar told Reuters in an interview, referring to the sites in Gyanvapi, Ayodhya, one other in Uttar Pradesh state and one in Madhya Pradesh. "They should stand with the truth, or they should stand with the wrong?"

In the group's first reaction to the Gyanvapi findings, Kumar said, "Accept the truth. Hold dialogues and let the judiciary decide."

Raising questions about the mosques does not mean Hindu groups comprise "an anti-mosque movement", he said. "This is not an anti-Islam movement. This is a movement to seek the truth that should be welcomed by the world."

Muslim groups are disputing the assertions of Hindu groups in court.

Zufar Ahmad Faruqi, chairman of the Sunni Central Waqf Board in Uttar Pradesh, said the group "have confidence in the judiciary that it will do what is correct.

"We want to live in harmony and peacefully while protecting the monuments as they are," he said. "Nothing political about it, we are in the court and facing it legally."

The Modi-led opening of the Ayodhya temple fulfilled a 35-year-old pledge of his Bharatiya Janata Party ahead of a general election due by May. He is expected to win a third straight term, the longest stretch since India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru.

The razing of the Ayodhya mosque sparked riots across India that authorities say killed at least 2,000 people, mostly Muslims. Hindu groups have for decades said that Muslim Mughal rulers built monuments and places of worship after destroying ancient Hindu structures.

Indian law bars the conversion of any place of worship and provides for the maintenance of the religious character of places of worship as they existed at the time of independence - except for the Ayodhya shrine. The Supreme Court is hearing challenges to the law.

The court this month halted plans for a survey of another centuries-old mosque in Uttar Pradesh, the country's most populous and politically important state, to determine if it contained Hindu relics and symbols.

The RSS's Kumar, who is also the chief patron of the group's Muslim wing, said Islamic law requires mosques to be constructed on undisputed land, or the land should be donated by someone who has bought it or the people building the mosque should buy it.

Source: Express Tribune

Hindu group toughens stance on India's mosque-temple disputes | The Express Tribune

RSS asserts mosques in India built over razed Hindu temples, deepening sectarian tensions

tribune.com.pk

 

[Stewie]

Hahaha. I encourage them to find the real truth. Not the garbage Indian authorities including their courts are shoving down people’s throats. Hindus will of course lap it all up.

Hindus have so many dieties and gods, I suspect they will come up holy site labels for all the big masjids in India.

 

[uppercut]

Ok can you elaborate on the reasons for its growth in 80's for my knowledge. As far as I know BJP'S rise resulted from divisions within Congress and deflections of their leaders to other parties. Whereas bjp adopted the hindutva approach and raised the issue of Ram temple and also included it in their 1989 manifesto.

Congress taking the Muslim appeasement to new levels in the mid 80s was the turning point. Lookup Shah Bano case and the subsequent legislation introduced by Congress govt in a blatant attempt to appease muslim vote bank.

 

[uppercut]

A place like Kaaba has existed for the last 1400 odd years for Muslims as a holy place of pilgrimage.

Yet a historically significant place for Hindus who predate Muslims by thousands of years, happens to just show up over 500 years ago in Ayodhaya and that too allegedly!

There is no concrete evidence to suggest the venue of the shaheed Babri masjid is the exact location Ram was born at. There is no evidence to suggest the modern city of Ayodhaya even existed back then.

The only evidence found was related to the existence of an older building there. It could have been a temple, it could have been anything. Nothing solid except hear say that Ram was born there.

One would suspect Hindus would have made a big holy place where he was born. Such a place has been missing for thousands of years.

Have you read the Supreme court (2019) judgement?

 

[I think therfore I am]

A powerful Hindu group said several mosques in India were built over demolished Hindu temples, apparently hardening its stance in a decades-long sectarian dispute just days after a huge temple was inaugurated on the site of a razed mosque.

The comments from the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the ideological parent of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Hindu-nationalist party, come after Modi and the RSS chief led Monday's consecration of the temple on the site of a 16th-century mosque demolished by a Hindu mob in 1992.

The fight over claims to holy sites has divided Hindu-majority India, which has the world's third-largest Muslim population, since independence from British rule in 1947.

Four days after the temple was inaugurated in the northern city of Ayodhya, a lawyer for Hindu petitioners said the Archaeological Survey of India had determined that a 17th century mosque in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi, in Modi's parliamentary constituency, had been built over a destroyed a Hindu temple.

The Archaeological Survey did not respond to a request for comment.

Late on Friday, senior RSS leader Indresh Kumar questioned whether Varanasi's Gyanvapi mosque and three others, including the razed one in Ayodhya on the site where many Hindus believe Lord Ram was born, were mosques at all.

"Whether we should consider them mosques or not, the people of the country and the world should think about it," Kumar told Reuters in an interview, referring to the sites in Gyanvapi, Ayodhya, one other in Uttar Pradesh state and one in Madhya Pradesh. "They should stand with the truth, or they should stand with the wrong?"

In the group's first reaction to the Gyanvapi findings, Kumar said, "Accept the truth. Hold dialogues and let the judiciary decide."

Raising questions about the mosques does not mean Hindu groups comprise "an anti-mosque movement", he said. "This is not an anti-Islam movement. This is a movement to seek the truth that should be welcomed by the world."

Muslim groups are disputing the assertions of Hindu groups in court.

Zufar Ahmad Faruqi, chairman of the Sunni Central Waqf Board in Uttar Pradesh, said the group "have confidence in the judiciary that it will do what is correct.

"We want to live in harmony and peacefully while protecting the monuments as they are," he said. "Nothing political about it, we are in the court and facing it legally."

The Modi-led opening of the Ayodhya temple fulfilled a 35-year-old pledge of his Bharatiya Janata Party ahead of a general election due by May. He is expected to win a third straight term, the longest stretch since India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru.

The razing of the Ayodhya mosque sparked riots across India that authorities say killed at least 2,000 people, mostly Muslims. Hindu groups have for decades said that Muslim Mughal rulers built monuments and places of worship after destroying ancient Hindu structures.

Indian law bars the conversion of any place of worship and provides for the maintenance of the religious character of places of worship as they existed at the time of independence - except for the Ayodhya shrine. The Supreme Court is hearing challenges to the law.

The court this month halted plans for a survey of another centuries-old mosque in Uttar Pradesh, the country's most populous and politically important state, to determine if it contained Hindu relics and symbols.

The RSS's Kumar, who is also the chief patron of the group's Muslim wing, said Islamic law requires mosques to be constructed on undisputed land, or the land should be donated by someone who has bought it or the people building the mosque should buy it.

Source: Express Tribune

Hindu group toughens stance on India's mosque-temple disputes | The Express Tribune

RSS asserts mosques in India built over razed Hindu temples, deepening sectarian tensions

tribune.com.pk

The hysteria begins maybe the same thing will happen to the Taj Mahal

 

[insurge]

A video worth watching, especially our Indian friends.

 

[Romali_rotti]

A video worth watching, especially our Indian friends.

Already saw it before you posted. Same message as always from a muslim that muslims are victims, masjid should not have been replaced with the temple, yada, yada.
Zero mentions of mughal/invader atrocities..

Not gonna sell in India, but nice try anyway...

 

[Romali_rotti]

Congress taking the Muslim appeasement to new levels in the mid 80s was the turning point. Lookup Shah Bano case and the subsequent legislation introduced by Congress govt in a blatant attempt to appease muslim vote bank.

That's the risk you take when you minority appease or become pseudo secular... looks like the majority has woken up and our Italian Ammayi will never get to see her mentally handicapped son become the PM.

 

[uppercut]

A video worth watching, especially our Indian friends.

Can you point me to the approx timestamp in that video where he proves that the temple was not demolished or it did not exist ?

Also have you read the Court judgement?

 

[BouncerGuy]

A powerful Hindu group said several mosques in India were built over demolished Hindu temples, apparently hardening its stance in a decades-long sectarian dispute just days after a huge temple was inaugurated on the site of a razed mosque.

The comments from the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the ideological parent of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Hindu-nationalist party, come after Modi and the RSS chief led Monday's consecration of the temple on the site of a 16th-century mosque demolished by a Hindu mob in 1992.

The fight over claims to holy sites has divided Hindu-majority India, which has the world's third-largest Muslim population, since independence from British rule in 1947.

Four days after the temple was inaugurated in the northern city of Ayodhya, a lawyer for Hindu petitioners said the Archaeological Survey of India had determined that a 17th century mosque in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi, in Modi's parliamentary constituency, had been built over a destroyed a Hindu temple.

The Archaeological Survey did not respond to a request for comment.

Late on Friday, senior RSS leader Indresh Kumar questioned whether Varanasi's Gyanvapi mosque and three others, including the razed one in Ayodhya on the site where many Hindus believe Lord Ram was born, were mosques at all.

"Whether we should consider them mosques or not, the people of the country and the world should think about it," Kumar told Reuters in an interview, referring to the sites in Gyanvapi, Ayodhya, one other in Uttar Pradesh state and one in Madhya Pradesh. "They should stand with the truth, or they should stand with the wrong?"

In the group's first reaction to the Gyanvapi findings, Kumar said, "Accept the truth. Hold dialogues and let the judiciary decide."

Raising questions about the mosques does not mean Hindu groups comprise "an anti-mosque movement", he said. "This is not an anti-Islam movement. This is a movement to seek the truth that should be welcomed by the world."

Muslim groups are disputing the assertions of Hindu groups in court.

Zufar Ahmad Faruqi, chairman of the Sunni Central Waqf Board in Uttar Pradesh, said the group "have confidence in the judiciary that it will do what is correct.

"We want to live in harmony and peacefully while protecting the monuments as they are," he said. "Nothing political about it, we are in the court and facing it legally."

The Modi-led opening of the Ayodhya temple fulfilled a 35-year-old pledge of his Bharatiya Janata Party ahead of a general election due by May. He is expected to win a third straight term, the longest stretch since India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru.

The razing of the Ayodhya mosque sparked riots across India that authorities say killed at least 2,000 people, mostly Muslims. Hindu groups have for decades said that Muslim Mughal rulers built monuments and places of worship after destroying ancient Hindu structures.

Indian law bars the conversion of any place of worship and provides for the maintenance of the religious character of places of worship as they existed at the time of independence - except for the Ayodhya shrine. The Supreme Court is hearing challenges to the law.

The court this month halted plans for a survey of another centuries-old mosque in Uttar Pradesh, the country's most populous and politically important state, to determine if it contained Hindu relics and symbols.

The RSS's Kumar, who is also the chief patron of the group's Muslim wing, said Islamic law requires mosques to be constructed on undisputed land, or the land should be donated by someone who has bought it or the people building the mosque should buy it.

Source: Express Tribune

Hindu group toughens stance on India's mosque-temple disputes | The Express Tribune

RSS asserts mosques in India built over razed Hindu temples, deepening sectarian tensions

tribune.com.pk

This was expected to happen and those days are not far when we see more demolition of the historical masjids in India.

 

[adil_909]

Right wing politics on the rise everywhere, same playbook rinse and repeat. Majority convinced by dear leader that they are being oppressed by a minority, and by persecuting that minority, they can restore their former greatness. Sad that humans in pretty much every country fall prey to this basic fallacy. I fear that in the next 20 years, things are going to get much worse globally before anything gets better. Fearful for the type of world I will leave my kids.

 

[Itachi]

Right wing politics on the rise everywhere, same playbook rinse and repeat. Majority convinced by dear leader that they are being oppressed by a minority, and by persecuting that minority, they can restore their former greatness. Sad that humans in pretty much every country fall prey to this basic fallacy. I fear that in the next 20 years, things are going to get much worse globally before anything gets better. Fearful for the type of world I will leave my kids.

This is not something that has never happened before nor that it will be the first time. It just shifting of the balance of power which has followed the same pattern through out history. Our previous generation feared about us, We are fearing about kids, Our kids will be fearing about our grand kids.
But in the grand scheme of things, there is nothing to fear. It was always the same circumstance repeating.

 

[insurge]

Already saw it before you posted. Same message as always from a muslim that muslims are victims, masjid should not have been replaced with the temple, yada, yada.
Zero mentions of mughal/invader atrocities..

Not gonna sell in India, but nice try anyway...

If that was your main takeaway from the video I am skeptical you actually watched it or you missed the entire point.

Can you point me to the approx timestamp in that video where he proves that the temple was not demolished or it did not exist ?

Also have you read the Court judgement?

Please watch the first 20 mins of the video for a historical record of the issue, how it was propogated it and Hindu-Muslim relations regarding this area prior to it.

 

[cricketjoshila]

A place like Kaaba has existed for the last 1400 odd years for Muslims as a holy place of pilgrimage.

Yet a historically significant place for Hindus who predate Muslims by thousands of years, happens to just show up over 500 years ago in Ayodhaya and that too allegedly!

There is no concrete evidence to suggest the venue of the shaheed Babri masjid is the exact location Ram was born at. There is no evidence to suggest the modern city of Ayodhaya even existed back then.

The only evidence found was related to the existence of an older building there. It could have been a temple, it could have been anything. Nothing solid except hear say that Ram was born there.

One would suspect Hindus would have made a big holy place where he was born. Such a place has been missing for thousands of years.

Ayodhya has been mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana and that is dated to 1st century BC.

A place like Kaaba has existed for the last 1400 odd years for Muslims as a holy place of pilgrimage.

Yet a historically significant place for Hindus who predate Muslims by thousands of years, happens to just show up over 500 years ago in Ayodhaya and that too allegedly!

There is no concrete evidence to suggest the venue of the shaheed Babri masjid is the exact location Ram was born at. There is no evidence to suggest the modern city of Ayodhaya even existed back then.

The only evidence found was related to the existence of an older building there. It could have been a temple, it could have been anything. Nothing solid except hear say that Ram was born there.

One would suspect Hindus would have made a big holy place where he was born. Such a place has been missing for thousands of years.

The Valmiki Ramayana which mentions Ayodhya as place of Birth of Lord Ram was dated to 7th century BC.

Who told you that it was missing for thousands of years?

It was only during muslim rule that the temple was destroyed.

 

[cricketjoshila]

A powerful Hindu group said several mosques in India were built over demolished Hindu temples, apparently hardening its stance in a decades-long sectarian dispute just days after a huge temple was inaugurated on the site of a razed mosque.

The comments from the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the ideological parent of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Hindu-nationalist party, come after Modi and the RSS chief led Monday's consecration of the temple on the site of a 16th-century mosque demolished by a Hindu mob in 1992.

The fight over claims to holy sites has divided Hindu-majority India, which has the world's third-largest Muslim population, since independence from British rule in 1947.

Four days after the temple was inaugurated in the northern city of Ayodhya, a lawyer for Hindu petitioners said the Archaeological Survey of India had determined that a 17th century mosque in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi, in Modi's parliamentary constituency, had been built over a destroyed a Hindu temple.

The Archaeological Survey did not respond to a request for comment.

Late on Friday, senior RSS leader Indresh Kumar questioned whether Varanasi's Gyanvapi mosque and three others, including the razed one in Ayodhya on the site where many Hindus believe Lord Ram was born, were mosques at all.

"Whether we should consider them mosques or not, the people of the country and the world should think about it," Kumar told Reuters in an interview, referring to the sites in Gyanvapi, Ayodhya, one other in Uttar Pradesh state and one in Madhya Pradesh. "They should stand with the truth, or they should stand with the wrong?"

In the group's first reaction to the Gyanvapi findings, Kumar said, "Accept the truth. Hold dialogues and let the judiciary decide."

Raising questions about the mosques does not mean Hindu groups comprise "an anti-mosque movement", he said. "This is not an anti-Islam movement. This is a movement to seek the truth that should be welcomed by the world."

Muslim groups are disputing the assertions of Hindu groups in court.

Zufar Ahmad Faruqi, chairman of the Sunni Central Waqf Board in Uttar Pradesh, said the group "have confidence in the judiciary that it will do what is correct.

"We want to live in harmony and peacefully while protecting the monuments as they are," he said. "Nothing political about it, we are in the court and facing it legally."

The Modi-led opening of the Ayodhya temple fulfilled a 35-year-old pledge of his Bharatiya Janata Party ahead of a general election due by May. He is expected to win a third straight term, the longest stretch since India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru.

The razing of the Ayodhya mosque sparked riots across India that authorities say killed at least 2,000 people, mostly Muslims. Hindu groups have for decades said that Muslim Mughal rulers built monuments and places of worship after destroying ancient Hindu structures.

Indian law bars the conversion of any place of worship and provides for the maintenance of the religious character of places of worship as they existed at the time of independence - except for the Ayodhya shrine. The Supreme Court is hearing challenges to the law.

The court this month halted plans for a survey of another centuries-old mosque in Uttar Pradesh, the country's most populous and politically important state, to determine if it contained Hindu relics and symbols.

The RSS's Kumar, who is also the chief patron of the group's Muslim wing, said Islamic law requires mosques to be constructed on undisputed land, or the land should be donated by someone who has bought it or the people building the mosque should buy it.

Source: Express Tribune

Hindu group toughens stance on India's mosque-temple disputes | The Express Tribune

RSS asserts mosques in India built over razed Hindu temples, deepening sectarian tensions

tribune.com.pk

ASI has made a 850 plus page report based on its survey including use of ground penetrating radars. This was commissioned on the basis of a court order.

The report concludes existence of a destroyed temple beneath the mosque and usage of material from the destroyed temple to construct the mosque. The entire western wall was the wall of the temple.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Right wing politics on the rise everywhere, same playbook rinse and repeat. Majority convinced by dear leader that they are being oppressed by a minority, and by persecuting that minority, they can restore their former greatness. Sad that humans in pretty much every country fall prey to this basic fallacy. I fear that in the next 20 years, things are going to get much worse globally before anything gets better. Fearful for the type of world I will leave my kids.

How is it that Muslims getting a entire country is their right but Hindus getting their temples is minority persecution?

 

[rpant_gabba]

If that was your main takeaway from the video I am skeptical you actually watched it or you missed the entire point.

Please watch the first 20 mins of the video for a historical record of the issue, how it was propogated it and Hindu-Muslim relations regarding this area prior to it.

Along the Rama a legend and a made up story

As an athiest, I find the story of rama as credible as moses downloading tablets from yawveh, jesus being son of god and rising from the dead, Islamic mythology etc etc: not very

 

[rpant_gabba]

Along the Rama a legend and a made up story

As an athiest, I find the story of rama as credible as moses downloading tablets from yawveh, jesus being son of god and rising from the dead, Islamic mythology etc etc: not very

meant to say he states rama is a made up legend

 

[Hitman]

ASI has made a 850 plus page report based on its survey including use of ground penetrating radars. This was commissioned on the basis of a court order.

The report concludes existence of a destroyed temple beneath the mosque and usage of material from the destroyed temple to construct the mosque. The entire western wall was the wall of the temple.

No amount of evidence will convince people who deliberately pretend to be asleep.

 

[cricketjoshila]

This was expected to happen and those days are not far when we see more demolition of the historical masjids in India.

What about demolition of the temples?

Just google a pic of gyanvyapi masjid, you can see the Western temple wall. Anyone can.

This is scientific proof.

Hindus said in 1946-47 that Muslims getting a country is fine and Hindus should get back their temples. The first temple to be reconstructed was Somnath. It happened with the concurrence of Gandhi and Patel. The mosque was dismantled and shifted to another place. The pran pratistha was done by Rajendra Prasad.

Then Gandhiji was assasinated and Sardar Patel passed away in 1950. Nehru turned secularism on its head and made several amendments to the constitution and Indian secularism meant muslim appeasement.

 

[rpant_gabba]

A video worth watching, especially our Indian friends.

an article worth reading

Detroit bomber's mentor continues to influence British mosques and universities

Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical cleric accused of inspiring the Detroit plane bomber, has been permitted to speak at a series of British mosques and universities, a Sunday Telegraph investigation has discovered.

web.archive.org

>>>In 2001, Qadhi described the holocaust as a hoax, claiming that "Hitler never intended to mass-destroy the Jews" and "All this [the Holocaust] is false propaganda". Although he later claimed he had been misled into making these statements, according to the Centre for Social Cohesion he more recently posted links to articles by a notorious Holocaust denier on an Islamic online forum.<<<

did he ever clarify who misled him? maybe the religious school he attended after getting a Chem. Eng degree.

 

[uppercut]

If that was your main takeaway from the video I am skeptical you actually watched it or you missed the entire point.

Please watch the first 20 mins of the video for a historical record of the issue, how it was propogated it and Hindu-Muslim relations regarding this area prior to it.

here is the first big claim staarting at 7 min mark ( See link below from your clip ) where he claims Ayodhya is a mythical city and no mention of it untill just a few centuries ago without naming his source for this big claim. So why are you believing this guy at face value ?

Also did you read the Supreme court judgment or the ASI Report ?

Link --> Ayodhya is just a Mythical City !!

 

[BouncerGuy]

What about demolition of the temples?

Just google a pic of gyanvyapi masjid, you can see the Western temple wall. Anyone can.

This is scientific proof.

Hindus said in 1946-47 that Muslims getting a country is fine and Hindus should get back their temples. The first temple to be reconstructed was Somnath. It happened with the concurrence of Gandhi and Patel. The mosque was dismantled and shifted to another place. The pran pratistha was done by Rajendra Prasad.

Then Gandhiji was assasinated and Sardar Patel passed away in 1950. Nehru turned secularism on its head and made several amendments to the constitution and Indian secularism meant muslim appeasement.

You cannot compare the current situation with some 1000-year-old history. Times have changed and this lack of patience is gonna bring this world to dust. That masjid was also a historical place, destroyed now. Just to get revenge?
because it was seen as revenge that Indian GOV think that Muslims destroyed their temple (still history tat cannot be confirmed 100 percent) 1000 years ago, now after many centuries when should destroy masjid. IF it was just to build a temple, then it can be built right next to same place but all they wanted was to destroy that masjid somehow.

 

[rpant_gabba]

You cannot compare the current situation with some 1000-year-old history. Times have changed and this lack of patience is gonna bring this world to dust. That masjid was also a historical place, destroyed now. Just to get revenge?
because it was seen as revenge that Indian GOV think that Muslims destroyed their temple (still history tat cannot be confirmed 100 percent) 1000 years ago, now after many centuries when should destroy masjid. IF it was just to build a temple, then it can be built right next to same place but all they wanted was to destroy that masjid somehow.

Times have changed. Agree. so can we ignored 1000+ years books of fairly tales of resurrection, ascending to heaven etc etc?

what is good for teh goos is good for gander.

Otherwise, some might accuse you of hypocrisy.

 

[uppercut]

You cannot compare the current situation with some 1000-year-old history. Times have changed and this lack of patience is gonna bring this world to dust. That masjid was also a historical place, destroyed now. Just to get revenge?
because it was seen as revenge that Indian GOV think that Muslims destroyed their temple (still history tat cannot be confirmed 100 percent) 1000 years ago, now after many centuries when should destroy masjid. IF it was just to build a temple, then it can be built right next to same place but all they wanted was to destroy that masjid somehow.

I will ask you the same question that I have asked others which not surprisingly nobody is touching .... Have you read the supreme court judgement on this case ? This is in regards to the highlighted portion of your post

 

[cricketjoshila]

You cannot compare the current situation with some 1000-year-old history. Times have changed and this lack of patience is gonna bring this world to dust. That masjid was also a historical place, destroyed now. Just to get revenge?
because it was seen as revenge that Indian GOV think that Muslims destroyed their temple (still history tat cannot be confirmed 100 percent) 1000 years ago, now after many centuries when should destroy masjid. IF it was just to build a temple, then it can be built right next to same place but all they wanted was to destroy that masjid somehow.

Why it can't be compared? Hindus faith and belief haven't changed. A tyrant demolished a temple and built a mosque over it. It was no ordinary temple but one of the holiest for the Hindus.

To say that Hindus must give up one of their holiest places is not fair. Hindus too have their rights.

And no mosque was destroyed for revenge. Ayodhya was and remains one of the holiest places for Hindus as are Kashi and Mathura.


I have posted the article that says that ASI categorically says that there was a Hindu religious place beneath the disputed structure in Ayodhya.



Decolonizing is decolonizing.

 

[insurge]

an article worth reading

Detroit bomber's mentor continues to influence British mosques and universities

Anwar al-Awlaki, the radical cleric accused of inspiring the Detroit plane bomber, has been permitted to speak at a series of British mosques and universities, a Sunday Telegraph investigation has discovered.

web.archive.org

>>>In 2001, Qadhi described the holocaust as a hoax, claiming that "Hitler never intended to mass-destroy the Jews" and "All this [the Holocaust] is false propaganda". Although he later claimed he had been misled into making these statements, according to the Centre for Social Cohesion he more recently posted links to articles by a notorious Holocaust denier on an Islamic online forum.<<<

did he ever clarify who misled him? maybe the religious school he attended after getting a Chem. Eng degree.

I am not sure what relevance his mistakes from 23 years ago as a 25 year old have on this video or its content. YQ is quite open about his "Salafi" phase and how he has changed since then. As for his credentials he now holds a PhD from Yale. But this is not the topic of this thread...

here is the first big claim staarting at 7 min mark ( See link below from your clip ) where he claims Ayodhya is a mythical city and no mention of it untill just a few centuries ago without naming his source for this big claim. So why are you believing this guy at face value ?

Also did you read the Supreme court judgment or the ASI Report ?

Link --> Ayodhya is just a Mythical City !!

This is not meant to be an academic lecture. It is a summary being given in a masjid to the general masses so not every statement is going to be cited. Even a simple wiki search can get you started... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayodhya_(Ramayana)#Historicity.

The goal from sharing this video is to expose people to another perspective as an alternate to the echo chamber in India. What you take from it is up to you.

 

[uppercut]

Times have changed. Agree. so can we ignored 1000+ years books of fairly tales of resurrection, ascending to heaven etc etc?

what is good for teh goos is good for gander.

Otherwise, some might accuse you of hypocrisy.

Based on the dogged refusal to accept facts and trying to fight tooth and nail to protect structures that scream religious intolerence we cannot say that the times have changed. They have changed for Non-Muslims in India but Muslims have a loooong way to go.

And everytime the Govt yields to them it only further strengthen their conviction that their position is legit and in-line with modern civilized norms.

 

[rpant_gabba]

I am not sure what relevance his mistakes from 23 years ago as a 25 year old have on this video or its content. YQ is quite open about his "Salafi" phase and how he has changed since then.

You mean to say he makes stuff depending on the phase he is in? denies historical events based on the mood he is in?

As for his credentials he now holds a PhD from Yale. But this is not the topic of this thread...

Yeah, in religious studies. not sure how is that even a thing? PhD in made up fairy tales

Wait according to the video, he believes his favorite fairy tales are true. others are not.

you are doing yourself any favors here.

 

[uppercut]

The goal from sharing this video is to expose people to another perspective as an alternate to the echo chamber in India. What you take from it is up to you.

All of this was challenged in the court and the Indian judicial system went to extreme lengths to ensure that there was no doubt about it. Thats why I keep asking if you have read the judgement, it has all the details. The clinching evidence was that the Masjid was popularly known as "Janmastan-e-Masjid" in both Mughal and British records.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Based on the dogged refusal to accept facts and trying to fight tooth and nail to protect structures that scream religious intolerence we cannot say that the times have changed. They have changed for Non-Muslims in India but Muslims have a loooong way to go.

And everytime the Govt yields to them it only further strengthen their conviction that their position is legit and in-line with modern civilized norms.

Spanish decolonized after their muslim conquest.

Greeks decolonized after their Ottoman rule.

Time for India.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Spanish decolonized after their muslim conquest.

Greeks decolonized after their Ottoman rule.

Time for India.

I wish the decolnoisation was less symbolic and more sunstantial

UCC should be the top priority. Bring all religions under the same rules
.
Reign in the waqf land mafia

not another mandir.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I wish the decolnoisation was less symbolic and more sunstantial

UCC should be the top priority. Bring all religions under the same rules
.
Reign in the waqf land mafia

not another mandir.

That's part of the decolonizing process.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What about demolition of the temples?

Just google a pic of gyanvyapi masjid, you can see the Western temple wall. Anyone can.

This is scientific proof.

Hindus said in 1946-47 that Muslims getting a country is fine and Hindus should get back their temples. The first temple to be reconstructed was Somnath. It happened with the concurrence of Gandhi and Patel. The mosque was dismantled and shifted to another place. The pran pratistha was done by Rajendra Prasad.

Then Gandhiji was assasinated and Sardar Patel passed away in 1950. Nehru turned secularism on its head and made several amendments to the constitution and Indian secularism meant muslim appeasement.

I've always wondered about that image, if anything it looks like an Mughal attempt to please all sides. One side of the buliding for the hindus to worship and the other for the growing Muslim community. If you wanted a picture of demolition of hindu temples, that's not really the best one.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Doesn't look demolished to me.

 

[uppercut]

I've always wondered about that image, if anything it looks like an Mughal attempt to please all sides. One side of the buliding for the hindus to worship and the other for the growing Muslim community. If you wanted a picture of demolition of hindu temples, that's not really the best one.

From "THE" Maasir-i-Alamgiri as documented by the Moghul barbarians/animals themselves

Link --> https://ia601508.us.archive.org/32/....61973/2015.61973.Maasir-i--Alamgiri-1947.pdf

In the thumbnail for each page on the left panel go to Page 61 and 62( Page 51 and 52 if you go by the page numbers on the document ): ... and read them. Here is the relevant detail:

"His Majesty, Eager to establish Islam, issued orders to the governors of all the provinces to demolish the schools and temples of all infidels and with the utmost urgency put down the teaching and public practice of the religion of these misbelievers"


Then on Page 65 ( Page 55 if you go by the page numbers on the document ):

"It was reported that, according to the Emperor's command his officers had demolished the Temple of Vishwanath at Kashi"


So what will be your next excuse or attempt to shift goalpost ( or even better just quietly slip away now that uncomfortable facts have surfaced ) ?

Note how these despicable vermin had absolutely no compunctions of religiously documenting these acts ( with dates) which is a clear evidence that they never considered these acts to be criminal. To them these were all very honorable things to do.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

From "THE" Maasir-i-Alamgiri as documented by the Moghul barbarians/animals themselves

Link --> https://ia601508.us.archive.org/32/....61973/2015.61973.Maasir-i--Alamgiri-1947.pdf

In the thumbnail for each page on the left panel go to Page 61 and 62( Page 51 and 52 if you go by the page numbers on the document ): ... and read them. Here is the relevant detail:

"His Majesty, Eager to establish Islam, issued orders to the governors of all the provinces to demolish the schools and temples of all infidels and with the utmost urgency put down the teaching and public practice of the religion of these misbelievers"


Then on Page 65 ( Page 55 if you go by the page numbers on the document ):

"It was reported that, according to the Emperor's command his officers had demolished the Temple of Vishwanath at Kashi"


So what will be your next excuse or attempt to shift goalpost ( or even better just quietly slip away now that uncomfortable facts have surfaced ) ?

Note how these despicable vermin had absolutely no compunctions of religiously documenting these acts ( with dates) which is a clear evidence that they never considered these acts to be criminal. To them these were all very honorable things to do.

A picture tells a thousand words. A PDF link not quite so much.

 

[uppercut]

A picture tells a thousand words. A PDF link not quite so much.

Astounding. Do you know why the remains of the temple are as they appear in that picture ?

Here is another hint for you .... where is the main idol of that temple if the temple wasn't demolished per your theory ? If this was an attempt to "please all sides" why do the official court documents tell a completely different story ?

And here is more gory details of the supposedly very "Tolerant" Mughal ruler. Cant believe there are educated people with internet access trying to defend Aurangzeb of all people. This is like defending Hitler. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Aurangzeb's Destruction of Hindu Temples

Aurangzeb would have blitzkrieg-ed through Hindu temples if he had the technology

aurangzeb.substack.com

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Astounding. Do you know why the remains of the temple are as they appear in that picture ?

Here is another hint for you .... where is the main idol of that temple if the temple wasn't demolished per your theory ? If this was an attempt to "please all sides" why do the official court documents tell a completely different story ?

And here is more gory details of the supposedly very "Tolerant" Mughal ruler. Cant believe there are educated people with internet access trying to defend Aurangzeb of all people. This is like defending Hitler. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Aurangzeb's Destruction of Hindu Temples

Aurangzeb would have blitzkrieg-ed through Hindu temples if he had the technology

aurangzeb.substack.com

I am not going to click any links unless they come from trusted sources. No idea what substack is but given the history of scams operating from India I would give that a miss.

 

[uppercut]

I am not going to click any links unless they come from trusted sources. No idea what substack is but given the history of scams operating from India I would give that a miss.

I see that as usual you conveniently ducked my questions in my previous post ... perhaps Preparing for a quick exit I see ?




its just a blog that chronicles all the "Deeds" of Aurangzeb with reference to sources including a Mughal painting where he ordered beheading of his own brother Dara Shikoh.

Here is one of the sources Which has the original Mughal records written in Persian and translated.

Aurangzeb, as he was according to Mughal Records

This Exhibition is based on Aurangzeb's akhbarats preserved at Rajasthan State Archives, contemporary official records and credible Persian sources

www.aurangzeb.info

But yeah not surprised at your hesitancy in letting facts get in the way.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I see that as usual you conveniently ducked my questions in my previous post ... perhaps Preparing for a quick exit I see ?




its just a blog that chronicles all the "Deeds" of Aurangzeb with reference to sources including a Mughal painting where he ordered beheading of his own brother Dara Shikoh.

Here is one of the sources Which has the original Mughal records written in Persian and translated.

Aurangzeb, as he was according to Mughal Records

This Exhibition is based on Aurangzeb's akhbarats preserved at Rajasthan State Archives, contemporary official records and credible Persian sources

www.aurangzeb.info

But yeah not surprised at your hesitancy in letting facts get in the way.

The facts are that picture which your hindutva champion suggested we google. Do you want me to post it again?

 

[uppercut]

The facts are that picture which your hindutva champion suggested we google. Do you want me to post it again?

Naah the picture is pretty clear it is your fertile imagination that wants to paint that picture as evidence of Mughal rulers religious tolerance/harmony is in need of scrutiny, this is where documentary evidence comes in. If you want to go by pure pictorial evidence .... lets see the picture of the main idols that every temple must have.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Astounding. Do you know why the remains of the temple are as they appear in that picture ?

Here is another hint for you .... where is the main idol of that temple if the temple wasn't demolished per your theory ? If this was an attempt to "please all sides" why do the official court documents tell a completely different story ?

And here is more gory details of the supposedly very "Tolerant" Mughal ruler. Cant believe there are educated people with internet access trying to defend Aurangzeb of all people. This is like defending Hitler. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Aurangzeb's Destruction of Hindu Temples

Aurangzeb would have blitzkrieg-ed through Hindu temples if he had the technology

aurangzeb.substack.com

When the Vishwanath temple is rebuilt his wish that all sides be pleased will be fulfilled.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Already saw it before you posted. Same message as always from a muslim that muslims are victims, masjid should not have been replaced with the temple, yada, yada.
Zero mentions of mughal/invader atrocities..

Not gonna sell in India, but nice try anyway...

Its a very good summary of what we know to be facts, not myths and legends.

As mentioned in the video, Babar never bought up this mosque/temple in his autobiogprahy. It was only an issue after a British ruler bought it up.

Seems like the right wing have also fooled a large population of India in order to attain votes. This is not the mentality or attitude of a secular government.

 

[uppercut]

Its a very good summary of what we know to be facts, not myths and legends.

As mentioned in the video, Babar never bought up this mosque/temple in his autobiogprahy. It was only an issue after a British ruler bought it up.

Seems like the right wing have also fooled a large population of India in order to attain votes. This is not the mentality or attitude of a secular government.

Can you explain why the Archeological survey found a massive temple structure with numerous pillars, broken idols, hindu worship artifacts , anscient inscriptions etc ... that were found exactly below the mosque ? You cannot deny these harsh facts in this day and age.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Can you explain why the Archeological survey found a massive temple structure with numerous pillars, broken idols, hindu worship artifacts , anscient inscriptions etc ... that were found exactly below the mosque ? You cannot deny these harsh facts in this day and age.

Can you explain why anyone should accept this survey which wasnt independent?

Please post photos of these?

The city was mythical, it didnt exist in this area unless you think its a city which has been around for thousands of years? Did the findings also carbon date and confirm this city existed since then?

 

[uppercut]

Can you explain why anyone should accept this survey which wasnt independent?

Nope the survey was conducted under strict court norms and in the presence of witnesses from all parties involved in the dispute.

Moreover this was done during congress rule so you can't even blame the bjp

Please post photos of these?
The city was mythical, it didnt exist in this area unless you think its a city which has been around for thousands of years? Did the findings also carbon date and confirm this city existed since then?

I will but you can easily Google all of that ... its all openly available.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Nope the survey was conducted under strict court norms and in the presence of witnesses from all parties.



I will but you can easily Google all of that ... its all openly available.

It was an Indian survey under BJP government rule. They used a man with a Muslim name to make it seem legit lol.

Please do, I dont want to entertain any fakes on the internet.

Can you confirm how long this holy city has been in this location for?

 

[Romali_rotti]

Its a very good summary of what we know to be facts, not myths and legends.

As mentioned in the video, Babar never bought up this mosque/temple in his autobiogprahy. It was only an issue after a British ruler bought it up.

Seems like the right wing have also fooled a large population of India in order to attain votes. This is not the mentality or attitude of a secular government.

The issue here is oh look look, us muslims are the victims in that video.

Had that guy in the video mentioned some of the wrong doings by the Islamic Invaders, I would have considered it a fairer assessment. However it was so one sided it was beyond a joke.

Its not gonna sell bro, victim mentally in India will lead you into more trouble, best to acknowledge the wrong doings of the past, not forget, but forgive and move on...

 

[KingKhanWC]

The issue here is oh look look, us muslims are the victims in that video.

Had that guy in the video mentioned some of the wrong doings by the Islamic Invaders, I would have considered it a fairer assessment. However it was so one sided it was beyond a joke.

Its not gonna sell bro, victim mentally in India will lead you into more trouble, best to acknowledge the wrong doings of the past, not forget, but forgive and move on...

I agree but the evidence is weak. He mentioned being victims as their mosque was climbed upon, demolished and replaced, this would be the same if the shoe was on the other foot.

Nobody can seem to answer this simple question which is the foundation of any view.

How long has the city of Ayodhya in this spot? Years, date etc.

 

[uppercut]

It was an Indian survey under BJP government rule. They used a man with a Muslim name to make it seem legit lol.

Wrong again. The muslim man that you are alluding to was not part of this survey. The ASI survey ordered by the Allahabad high court was conducted in 2003. BJP was not in power in UP at that time. Infact it did not come to power until 2017 ... 14 yrs later.

Please do, I dont want to entertain any fakes on the internet.

You dont know how to distinguish between authentic and fake sources ? Then how did you find authentic sources for the opinions you have formed on this matter ?


But anyhow Here is the official SC report ( 1000+ pages so good luck reading it lol ) hosted on the gov of india website:

https://main.sci.gov.in/supremecourt/2010/36350/36350_2010_1_1502_18205_Judgement_09-Nov-2019.pdf

Read page 23 and 24 that answer your question about how the ASI Survery was conducted. The jusdgement has an entire section dedicated to the ASI report, how/when it was conducted and who were the witneses and what objections were raised and how they were handled.

Can you confirm how long this holy city has been in this location for?

1000s of years but for all practical purposes it easily predates Islam.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

You mean to say he makes stuff depending on the phase he is in? denies historical events based on the mood he is in?

Yeah, in religious studies. not sure how is that even a thing? PhD in made up fairy tales

Wait according to the video, he believes his favorite fairy tales are true. others are not.

you are doing yourself any favors here.

Look, there needs to be some level of sensibility and sensitivity here.

There is absolutely no need for name calling and calling other beliefs as fairy tail. Especially when the topic at hand is the birth of your God, whose sister was kidnapped by demons, and he had to rescue her with monkey bridges. These may be core beliefs to those who venerate Ram so it would be silly for me to label them as fairy tale. You should have same respect for our views and our scholars.

Remain respectful to other religions and discuss the topic using proper language.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Wrong again. The muslim man that you are alluding to was not part of this survey. The ASI survey ordered by the Allahabad high court was conducted in 2003. BJP was not in power in UP at that time. Infact it did not come to power until 2017 ... 14 yrs later.



You dont know how to distinguish between authentic and fake sources ? Then how did you find authentic sources for the opinions you have formed on this matter ?


But anyhow Here is the official SC report ( 1000+ pages so good luck reading it lol ) hosted on the gov of india website:

https://main.sci.gov.in/supremecourt/2010/36350/36350_2010_1_1502_18205_Judgement_09-Nov-2019.pdf

Read page 23 and 24 that answer your question about how the ASI Survery was conducted. The jusdgement has an entire section dedicated to the ASI report, how/when it was conducted and who were the witneses and what objections were raised and how they were handled.




1000s of years but for all practical purposes it easily predates Islam.

BJP have been involved in this case since 92.

I dont want to read the full report, I just want some pics of those items you claimed were from the temple buried underneath.

So you have no clue as to the exact date this city was built in this spot? Do you even accept it did exist in this spot thousands of years ago or are following myths and legends?

 

[rpant_gabba]

Look, there needs to be some level of sensibility and sensitivity here.

The sensibility and sensitivity has to be mutual and one that I have often found lacking among religious groups against each other and in particular no-religious people like me.

There is absolutely no need for name calling

There has been absolutely no name calling my part.

and calling other beliefs as fairy tail. Especially when the topic at hand is the birth of your God, whose sister was kidnapped by demons, and he had to rescue her with monkey bridges. These may be core beliefs to those who venerate Ram so it would be silly for me to label them as fairy tale.

pro-tip: story is that it was his wife, not sister. the bridges were built by monkeys not monkey bridges.

Yes, these are tales with little grounding in reality. I'll respect anyones right to hold those to be true. however, problems arise if it moves in to making the rest of the world live their life based on those tales.

You should have same respect for our views and our scholars.

If the scholars make claims which contrary to reality e.g 6000 year old, geocentric model etc etc, those claims will be challenged.

Remain respectful to other religions and discuss the topic using proper language.

As long as the religions and religious people don't try to control other people lives using their religious books, it should work out just fine.

 

[uppercut]

BJP have been involved in this case since 92.

the point is they were not in power to influence any court/ASI ruling. All major events in this dispute took place well before 2014.

I dont want to read the full report, I just want some pics of those items you claimed were from the temple buried underneath.

So you have no clue as to the exact date this city was built in this spot? Do you even accept it did exist in this spot thousands of years ago or are following myths and legends?

Watch this youtube video its from a neutral source which analyzes the evidence from multiple sources including Mughal, British and Sikh sources and it has pictorial evidence.

Link: Ayodhya Evidence from multiple sources

Also please be aware that it is public knowledge that the Mosque when it was around had in plain sight many Black Pillars with Hindu symbols/carvings/dieties that are only found in Temples. You can find a picture of one such pillar in that video at around the 28 min mark. But watch the whole video.

Furthermore, the Muslim side never contested the antiquity of Ayodhya in court, they actually accepted in writing (on 22-APR-2009 to be precise) that the city was the birth place of Lord Ram.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The sensibility and sensitivity has to be mutual and one that I have often found lacking among religious groups against each other and in particular no-religious people like me.

There has been absolutely no name calling my part.

pro-tip: story is that it was his wife, not sister. the bridges were built by monkeys not monkey bridges.

Yes, these are tales with little grounding in reality. I'll respect anyones right to hold those to be true. however, problems arise if it moves in to making the rest of the world live their life based on those tales.

If the scholars make claims which contrary to reality e.g 6000 year old, geocentric model etc etc, those claims will be challenged.

Firstly thank you for the pro/tip correction and apologies for the mistake.

But since you are interested in challenging claims contrary to reality then what your is stance regarding the site being the birth place of Lord Ram who built the aforementioned bridge to rescue his wife from a multi headed demon?

As long as the religions and religious people don't try to control other people lives using their religious books, it should work out just fine.

Well it seems to be the case here no? You guys are using an archaeological report to say someone mentioned in your books was born there? Does the report say anything about Lord Ram being born there? That's more the field of theology than archaeology.

 

[KingKhanWC]

the point is they were not in power to influence any court/ASI ruling. All major events in this dispute took place well before 2014.




Watch this youtube video its from a neutral source which analyzes the evidence from multiple sources including Mughal, British and Sikh sources and it has pictorial evidence.

Link: Ayodhya Evidence from multiple sources

Also please be aware that it is public knowledge that the Mosque when it was around had in plain sight many Black Pillars with Hindu symbols/carvings/dieties that are only found in Temples. You can find a picture of one such pillar in that video at around the 28 min mark. But watch the whole video.

Furthermore, the Muslim side never contested the antiquity of Ayodhya in court, they actually accepted in writing (on 22-APR-2009 to be precise) that the city was the birth place of Lord Ram.

BJP/RSS are Hindu extremists, they have been trying to influence this since 92 and being in power or not doesnt mean they can or cannot influence.

The video is poor, bunch of documents with no real proof.

Hindu symbols and paintings were found and existed inside because of Hindu extremists entering and producing them. You should know Hindu extremists have been entering the masjid even since the Brit Montgomery informed them a temple was below.

You really believe a God was born on this site? The notion a God can be born from a man or spirit itself goes against the definition of God.

 

[rpant_gabba]

Firstly thank you for the pro/tip correction and apologies for the mistake.

meh. its a story.

But since you are interested in challenging claims contrary to reality then what your is stance regarding the site being the birth place of Lord Ram who built the aforementioned bridge to rescue his wife from a multi headed demon?

Tales. nothing more. no different from stories of 3000+ religions known to mankind.

Well it seems to be the case here no? You guys are using an archaeological report to say someone mentioned in your books was born there? Does the report say anything about Lord Ram being born there? That's more the field of theology than archaeology.

It might help to follow my posts. My views on gods and religions will find no favor among any of the religious folks.

My issue with with past GOI's is the case of pseudosecularism and minority appeasement. That might be worth a separate thread.

My post that you responded was specifically calling out the mistakes in the video.

 

[Vikram1989]

Firstly thank you for the pro/tip correction and apologies for the mistake.

But since you are interested in challenging claims contrary to reality then what your is stance regarding the site being the birth place of Lord Ram who built the aforementioned bridge to rescue his wife from a multi headed demon?




Well it seems to be the case here no? You guys are using an archaeological report to say someone mentioned in your books was born there? Does the report say anything about Lord Ram being born there? That's more the field of theology than archaeology.

Supreme court never considered whether lord rama born there or not.It has dealt the issue as land problem and who owns exclusive ownership all the times.pls go through the judgements.

 

[uppercut]

BJP/RSS are Hindu extremists, they have been trying to influence this since 92 and being in power or not doesnt mean they can or cannot influence.

Proove it

The video is poor, bunch of documents with no real proof.

This is from decades ago before there was HD ... You want 4K quality images? The guy thats presenting is a neutral expert.

Maybe you can tell what YOU would consider as proof ?

Clearly you dont consider official supreme court judgment which is in black and white as evidence either???

Hindu symbols and paintings were found and existed inside because of Hindu extremists entering and producing them. You should know Hindu extremists have been entering the masjid even since the Brit Montgomery informed them a temple was below.

How do 12 pillars get into the mosque and become load bearing pillars ( iam talking about pre 1992)? There is a limit to denial you know.

You really believe a God was born on this site? The notion a God can be born from a man or spirit itself goes against the definition of God.

Thats Your definition of God.

 

[Stewie]

So here is what I think is going on… after reading all the responses from the Hindus here. There seems to be a lot of hatred, angst and simmering resentment of Muslim conquerors of years bygone with most of them. It has been brought to the fore now thanks to the populist Modi.

They don’t care whether Ran was born somewhere on that 3/4 acres of land where at some point in history a temple stood followed by a majid.

Ram’s birthplace could be a different temple in Ayodhaya or it could even be a totally different Ayodhaya that goes by a different name now or doesn’t even exist. To most of these Hindus, it does not matter.

This has basically become a symbolism for their pay back. You read all these comments and this sentiment stares you in the face. This is not about having a place to worship they can call their god’s birth place. This is all about razing down a masjid in revenge for happened to them at the hands of non Indian invaders who happened to be Muslims. This is about telling the modern day Muslim who is boss and who runs the country.

 

[rpant_gabba]

So here is what I think is going on… after reading all the responses from the Hindus here. There seems to be a lot of hatred, angst and simmering resentment of Muslim conquerors of years bygone with most of them. It has been brought to the fore now thanks to the populist Modi.

They don’t care whether Ran was born somewhere on that 3/4 acres of land where at some point in history a temple stood followed by a majid.

Ram’s birthplace could be a different temple in Ayodhaya or it could even be a totally different Ayodhaya that goes by a different name now or doesn’t even exist. To most of these Hindus, it does not matter.

This has basically become a symbolism for their pay back. You read all these comments and this sentiment stares you in the face. This is not about having a place to worship they can call their god’s birth place. This is all about razing down a masjid in revenge for happened to them at the hands of non Indian invaders who happened to be Muslims. This is about telling the modern day Muslim who is boss and who runs the country.

I'd say it is more about the pseduosecualrism nonsense promoted by the Nehru clan for 5+ decades that precipitated this situation.

"Personal" laws, seizing temple properties, religion based quotas all to keep a vote bank destroyed any principled secularism in governments function.

 

[uppercut]

So here is what I think is going on… after reading all the responses from the Hindus here. There seems to be a lot of hatred, angst and simmering resentment of Muslim conquerors of years bygone with most of them. It has been brought to the fore now thanks to the populist Modi.

They don’t care whether Ran was born somewhere on that 3/4 acres of land where at some point in history a temple stood followed by a majid.

Ram’s birthplace could be a different temple in Ayodhaya or it could even be a totally different Ayodhaya that goes by a different name now or doesn’t even exist. To most of these Hindus, it does not matter.

This has basically become a symbolism for their pay back. You read all these comments and this sentiment stares you in the face. This is not about having a place to worship they can call their god’s birth place. This is all about razing down a masjid in revenge for happened to them at the hands of non Indian invaders who happened to be Muslims. This is about telling the modern day Muslim who is boss and who runs the country.

In other words the mosque stood on virgin land and the evil Hindus wanted it removed hence all this song and dance ... correct?

 

[Stewie]

In other words the mosque stood on virgin land and the evil Hindus wanted it removed hence all this song and dance ... correct?

there is no question it stood on the ruins of a razed and conquered mandir. i have stated so hundred of times on this and other threads. but the evidence is scant if this is ram’s birthplace. you could find a bucketload of masjids in india all built on grounds of former mandirs. so what will you do? take them all back? destroy all the masjids?

you guys are just proving the two nation theory was right. and slso that india is no longer a secular state if the majority decides to go on a centuries old vendetta against their minority former rulers.

 

[sweep_shot]

So here is what I think is going on… after reading all the responses from the Hindus here. There seems to be a lot of hatred, angst and simmering resentment of Muslim conquerors of years bygone with most of them. It has been brought to the fore now thanks to the populist Modi.

They don’t care whether Ran was born somewhere on that 3/4 acres of land where at some point in history a temple stood followed by a majid.

Ram’s birthplace could be a different temple in Ayodhaya or it could even be a totally different Ayodhaya that goes by a different name now or doesn’t even exist. To most of these Hindus, it does not matter.

This has basically become a symbolism for their pay back. You read all these comments and this sentiment stares you in the face. This is not about having a place to worship they can call their god’s birth place. This is all about razing down a masjid in revenge for happened to them at the hands of non Indian invaders who happened to be Muslims. This is about telling the modern day Muslim who is boss and who runs the country.

I suspect high blood pressure is common among BJP people. They always seem angry.

This is not really about religion for them. It is about their internal islamophobia. You are unlikely to see them demolish any British structure or Portuguese structure.