rpant_gabba
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If India had implemented secularism from the beginning instead of pandering to to religious minorities, there would be no BJP
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Ayodhya Ram Mandir: India PM Modi inaugurates Hindu temple on razed Babri mosque site [Update in post#488]
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hoshiarpurexpress
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There are 40000 more such temples to reclaim by Hindu brothers. Hopefully they keep at it.
We Sikh minorities are thriving in Bharar because it's a Hindu majority.
We Sikh minorities are thriving in Bharar because it's a Hindu majority.
You may not know this but there are only 2 more extremely holy sites that are being litigated ( Mathura Sri Krishna Janmasthan and Kashi Gyanvapi ) not thousands of temples. And you are absolutely right ... the two nation theory was correct. I have experienced it first hand. Just that our stupid leaders were very naive ( or had ulterior motives but thats a topic for another day).
But the relevant tidbits From the Supreme Court Judgement to address the question of exact birthplace determination:
"Narsimha elaborating his submission submits that the
test, which has to be applied for marshalling the
evidence is the standard of preponderance of
probability. Referring to Section 3 of Evidence Act,
he submits that proof of fact depends upon the belief
or probability of the fact looking to the circumstances
of the particular case. It is submitted that oral and
documentary evidence submitted on behalf of the Hindu
parties proves the faith and belief of Hindus that
disputed site is birthplace of Lord Ram. He submits
that Valmiki Ramayana refers to birth of Shri Ram in
Ayodhya, which is the epic of the East and considered
to have become the foundation of the culture and
tradition of our country. Skanda Purana is of Eighth
Century A.D., which provides ample proof of faith that
is instilled in the heart of Hindus, i.e., visit to
birthplace of Lord Ram, which is of extreme merit
which, for Hindus, is nothing but Moksha. It is further
submitted that repeated assertions and right to worship
by the Hindus in the disputed premises and the various
fights by Hindus is ample proof of their undying faith
that disputed site is the birthplace of Lord Ram. Shri
P a g e 25
P.N. Mishra elaborating his submission has placed
reliance on Holy Scriptures Shrimad Valmiki Ramayana
and Srimad Skandpuranam, Rudrayamala, Sri
Ramacharitamanasa and other scriptures like Srimad
Narashingha Puranam. Reliance has been placed on Verse
15 to 17 and 18 to 25 and particular pages of Ayodhya
Mahatmya of Skanda Purana, he submits that the above
verses gives the geographical situation of birthplace
of Lord Ram, which is still verifiable. Shri Mishra
took us to the oral evidence of witnesses where
according to him witnesses have proved the locations
as mentioned in the Skanda Purana with respect to
birthplace of Lord Ram. Referring to map prepared by
Hans Bakker and the site plan prepared by Shiv Shankar
Lal in Suit No.2 of 1950, he submits that several marks
mentioned in Skanda Purana are still present, which
certifies the location of birthplace as the disputed
site.
36. The faith and belief that disputed site is
birthplace of Lord Ram has to be established since
before 1528 when disputed structure is said to have
P a g e 26
been constructed by Babar. The oral evidence, which
has been led by the parties to support their respective
cases can at best be the oral evidence of that which
has been seen by the witnesses, who depose before the
Court, which can at best be of things as existed in the
Twentieth Century only. There are some Exhibits filed
by the parties, which relates to Nineteenth Century.
The Holy Scriptures relied by Hindu Parties being of
older period, the accounts of travelogues and
Gazetteers belonging to different period, some before
Nineteenth Century, the period of consideration have
to be divided in three parts. First period before
1528, second period from 1528 to 1858 and the third
period after 1858 to 1949. Although in the written
statement filed by Muslim Parties, Sunni Central Board
under Suit No.5 pleaded that as a matter of fact, the
religious books as well as the writings of Hindu
Scholars makes it very difficult as to whether
personality of Shri Ram Chandra Ji is a historical
personality, but by making statements under Order X
Rule 2 of the Civil Procedure Code, which statements
have been recorded by the High Court and has been
P a g e 27
referred by the High Court in its judgment, the stand
of Muslim parties have been clarified. It is necessary
to refer the above statements made under Order X Rule
II C.P.C. The statement of Shri Zafaryab Jilani,
counsel for plaintiff in Suit No.4 was recorded by the
Full Bench of the High Court on 22.04.2009, which is
to the following effect:-
“STATEMENT OF SRI ZAFARYAB ZILANI, COUNSEL
FOR PLAINTIFF IN O.O.S. 4 OF 1989 MADE UNDER
ORDER X RULE 2 C.P.C. ON 22.04.2009.
For the purpose of this case there is
no dispute about the faith of Hindu
devotees of Lord Rama regarding the birth
of Lord Rama at Ayodhya as described in
Balmiki Ramayana or as existing today. It
is, however, disputed and denied that the
site of Babri Masjid was the place of birth
of Lord Rama. It is also denied that there
was any Ram Janam Bhoomi Temple at the site
of Babri Masjid at any time whatsoever.
The existence of Nirmohi Akhara from the
second half of Nineteenth Century onwards
is also not disputed. It is, however,
denied and disputed that Nirmohi Akhara was
in existence and specially in Ayodhya in
16the Century A.D. or in 1528 A.D. and it
is also denied that any idols were there in
the building of the Babri Masjid up to 22nd
December, 1949.
Sd/-
Z. Jilani, Adv.
22.04.2009”
Summary:
72. It can, therefore, be held that the faith and belief
of Hindus regarding location of birthplace of Lord Ram
is from scriptures and sacred religious books including
Valmiki Ramayana and Skanda Purana, which faith and
beliefs, cannot be held to be groundless. Thus, it is
found that in the period prior to 1528 A.D., there was
P a g e 66
sufficient religious texts, which led the Hindus to
believe the present site of Ram Janma Bhumi as the
birthplace of Lord Ram.
Other way around .... I am in no illusion about the valor and heavy price paid by the Sikh community to protect us from plain evil. My sincere respect and gratitude to your community.
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Hindutva leaders eye Mumbai shrine as polls draw near
As a new temple in Ayodhya to Lord Ram may not have successfully invoked ‘divine’ support for India’s Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s third bid in polls due in May, the search for new sources of inspiration is on.
One such search has led to a Sufi shrine near Mumbai, which Hindutva allies have laid claim on to polarise voters, reports said on Monday.
A dispute, dormant for centuries with only sporadic stirrings, is being dusted and readied to fire in the run-up to the state assembly and Lok Sabha elections in Maharashtra, reports say.
The first sign that Malang-gad — located on a 789-ft hill in Ambernath in the Mumbai metropolitan region in Thane district — will be the centerpiece of the election season has come from Maharashtra CM Eknath Shinde himself.
Speaking at the annual Malang-gad Harinam Mahotsav in Thane, Mr Shinde, who broke away from the late Bal Thackeray’s Shiv Sena to lead a BJP-backed coalition, said he is “committed to liberate Malang-gad”, adding he would not rest till he had fulfilled the promise.
Malang-gad (’gad’ means a fort in Marathi) is famous for its 12th-century shrine of Sufi saint Haji Abdul Rahman, popularly known as ‘Haji Malang’. But Hindus believe the place holds the samadhi of Machindranath, a revered deity in Nathpanthi sect, which was later converted into a dargah.
An article published in The Times of India on Feb 14, 1993 reveals the arrest of Thane’s top Shiv Sena leader late Anand Dighe while leading an agitation demanding the renaming of Malang-gad as Shri Malang. Dighe was Mr Shinde’s mentor and the promise to liberate Malang-gad is a logical political move on the chief minister’s part to claim his master’s legacy.
According to The Times article, the Hindu-Muslim dispute on the trusteeship of the shrine is centuries old and the rift between the two communities over the shrine’s control goes back to 1817. The dispute was referred to the district collector and a lottery draw took place. On all three occasions, the lots favoured Kashipantnath Ketkar, an emissary of the ruling Peshwas. A member of the Ketkar family, to this day, occupies a seat at the dargah committee that manages the annual Urs in February.
However, Nasir Khan, chairman of the Peer Haji Malang Saheb Trust, refers to the Gazetteer of Bombay Presidency which mentions the structure as the shrine built in honour of Arab missionary Haji Abd-ul-Rahman. “It is only in the 1980s that the Shiv Sena began making claims of it being a Hindu temple. If it was a Hindu temple, why did the Peshwa kings send gifts to the shrine?” asks Mr Khan.
According to the chairman of the Trust, Haji Malang is equally revered by Hindu and Muslims. He says that even Christians and Parsis visit the shrine to seek blessings.
SOURCE: DAWN
As a new temple in Ayodhya to Lord Ram may not have successfully invoked ‘divine’ support for India’s Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s third bid in polls due in May, the search for new sources of inspiration is on.
One such search has led to a Sufi shrine near Mumbai, which Hindutva allies have laid claim on to polarise voters, reports said on Monday.
A dispute, dormant for centuries with only sporadic stirrings, is being dusted and readied to fire in the run-up to the state assembly and Lok Sabha elections in Maharashtra, reports say.
The first sign that Malang-gad — located on a 789-ft hill in Ambernath in the Mumbai metropolitan region in Thane district — will be the centerpiece of the election season has come from Maharashtra CM Eknath Shinde himself.
Speaking at the annual Malang-gad Harinam Mahotsav in Thane, Mr Shinde, who broke away from the late Bal Thackeray’s Shiv Sena to lead a BJP-backed coalition, said he is “committed to liberate Malang-gad”, adding he would not rest till he had fulfilled the promise.
Malang-gad (’gad’ means a fort in Marathi) is famous for its 12th-century shrine of Sufi saint Haji Abdul Rahman, popularly known as ‘Haji Malang’. But Hindus believe the place holds the samadhi of Machindranath, a revered deity in Nathpanthi sect, which was later converted into a dargah.
An article published in The Times of India on Feb 14, 1993 reveals the arrest of Thane’s top Shiv Sena leader late Anand Dighe while leading an agitation demanding the renaming of Malang-gad as Shri Malang. Dighe was Mr Shinde’s mentor and the promise to liberate Malang-gad is a logical political move on the chief minister’s part to claim his master’s legacy.
According to The Times article, the Hindu-Muslim dispute on the trusteeship of the shrine is centuries old and the rift between the two communities over the shrine’s control goes back to 1817. The dispute was referred to the district collector and a lottery draw took place. On all three occasions, the lots favoured Kashipantnath Ketkar, an emissary of the ruling Peshwas. A member of the Ketkar family, to this day, occupies a seat at the dargah committee that manages the annual Urs in February.
However, Nasir Khan, chairman of the Peer Haji Malang Saheb Trust, refers to the Gazetteer of Bombay Presidency which mentions the structure as the shrine built in honour of Arab missionary Haji Abd-ul-Rahman. “It is only in the 1980s that the Shiv Sena began making claims of it being a Hindu temple. If it was a Hindu temple, why did the Peshwa kings send gifts to the shrine?” asks Mr Khan.
According to the chairman of the Trust, Haji Malang is equally revered by Hindu and Muslims. He says that even Christians and Parsis visit the shrine to seek blessings.
SOURCE: DAWN
rpant_gabba
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most religious people get high blood pressure when you start questioning their tales.
cricket.mad
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Without you Sikh brothers valour, we Hindus would have suffered enormous losses in hands of barbarians
cricketjoshila
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Other way around .... I am in no illusion about the valor and heavy price paid by the Sikh community to protect us from plain evil. My sincere respect and gratitude to your community.
Mughals murdered Sikh gurus and their families. No one should be allowed to glorify them in India.
Hitman
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It's a shame we 80's kids were taught about them at school in our books like they were heroes.
cricketjoshila
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Nehru and his leftist historians did the white washing.
Absolutely !! no ifs ands and buts about it. The more I think about it the more respectful and utterly grateful I am about my ancestors. Just cannot even imagine what they went thru considering that the last episode of Kashmiri Hindu genocide happened in our lifetimes !!
hoshiarpurexpress
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Yup. Evil must never be glorified.
Romali_rotti
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It is absolutely heart breaking to see animals like Tipu Sultan who caused killings, chaos, destruction to unimaginable levels be treated like some sort of hero.
Its a disgrace his tomb is not demolished and the fact it is still there must serve painful memories to so many who live in India....
Its a disgrace his tomb is not demolished and the fact it is still there must serve painful memories to so many who live in India....
Cpt. Rishwat
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They are a cunning people. Christian nations rule the world, to anger them is not the way of the hindu. This is why the British imperialists were referred to with veneration and deference as the British Raj. Perhaps one day when the western world has declined in power and influence, then you will see the hindutva thirst for revenge on British and Portuguese legacy.
cricketjoshila
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British imperalists are seen as villains in India and are not venerated.
Raj means Rule in various Indian languages. British Raj means British rule.
Statues of British imperalists and places regularly replaced and renamed.
Crying victim won't help. Decolonizing of all invaders will be done.
Stewie
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Well there you have it. After my last post the Hindus and anti Muslim Sikhs flocked over here and just read their comments and tell me if I was wrong. They are clearly on a vendetta for injustices done to them centuries ago. The focus is to get theirs for actions committed by invaders and conquerors centuries ago but the ones suffering now are the actual fellow citizens of their own country who have their places of worship being taken from them in a state of disgrace.
How much sense does that make?
Does one injustice committed centuries ago in absence of any international and civil rights justify modern day injustices trampling on a modern nation’s basic human needs?
That is the crux of this situation now. If Hindus and their allies feel the answer is yes then this results in the alienation of their own fellow citizens. It creates extremism and radicalism. Then they look at us and blame us, blind to their own unjust policies.
How much sense does that make?
Does one injustice committed centuries ago in absence of any international and civil rights justify modern day injustices trampling on a modern nation’s basic human needs?
That is the crux of this situation now. If Hindus and their allies feel the answer is yes then this results in the alienation of their own fellow citizens. It creates extremism and radicalism. Then they look at us and blame us, blind to their own unjust policies.
CricketCartoons
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Yes, crux of the situation is that hindus are not just letting go what they have lost, and not muslims who think once they won something it belongs to them forever.
Cpt. Rishwat
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Lol, try watching some of your own films and tv shows and tell me with a straight face decolonising is being done.
Stewie
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I think he meant the other decolonization which results in irregular bowel movements.
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Stewie
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Speaking of their own culture, I have been noticing this disturbing trend in indian films in terms of their clothing. They have turned a classical decent dress such as a saree into a disaster. What their actresses wear now in the name of saree is nothing but obscenity. You really cannot watch this on TV with your family, thats how bad and small these "sarees" are starting to get.
Some decolonization that is
Cpt. Rishwat
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Actually western fashion dominates in most of Asia, no reason why it shouldn't. You don't expect South Koreans to still be wearing gowns and slippers in the modern world. But when you are trying to recreate a hindu rashtra and boasting of ridding of all invader influence something doesn't add up.
Nikhil_cric
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A woman riding a bike has to be decolonised?
CricketCartoons
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Bollywood is a part of the problem. They don't represent us. You are right that gutterwood has harmed indigenous culture.
They will also fall in line.
Decolonization is basically about dismantling structures of power and dominance of the invaders, and not merely removing influences. When pakistanis watch gutterwood movies, they are not giving up on their culture, but only taking what they voluntarily allow while rejecting symbols of dominance over them.
cricketjoshila
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If BLM is pulling down statues of erstwhile heroes and leaders, why can't Hindus get back their temples?
Greeks decolonized and reconverted all their churches that Ottomans had converted into mosques.
Hindus too have their rights. And regards to Muslims, their rights were protected by giving them an entire nation. They can't have it both ways. Other communities too have their rights.
What injustice is being done to Muslims? There are 60000 plus mosques in India. The ones that are being asked by other communities are less than 10 and alternative mosques will be constructed to replace them one dismantled.
A section of Muslim community's resistance of not handing over these few mosques show that even today they support the actions of these tyrants. Even today they believe these invaders were heroes. Even today, just like few centuries back they believe that these mosques signifying persecution of non Muslims was the correct course of action.
cricketjoshila
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And Bollywood reflects Indian society?
The answer to that generic question depends on whether people who are complaining about their rights being compromised view the original acts committed centuries ago as gross attrocities on others in the first place.
In the case of Babri, Mathura and Gyanvapi mosques the answer is a emphatic NO given that the muslim side is sparing no effort to hold on to these sites at any and all costs in 2024 despite all the advances we have made over the years and free availability of authentic information about the original acts.
So you need to have this discussion with Muslims who still do not understand how the concept of modern human rights works .... not the Hindus.
Note: you will find internet savvy well educated people still not willing to call these attrocities for what they are. Try engaging them and get a first hand experience of the madness.
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Stewie
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So there are NO Muslims in India anymore? Yeah, "some" of the Muslims split but does that mean those who chose to stay behind have to convert to Hinduism? Do they have no rights?
In your view does taking down the statues of racist confederate leaders who favored slavery is the same as taking away the places of worship of a religious minority in the country? I suggest you look up who these 'erstwhile heroes and leaders' are and why BLM wants their statues taken down and tell me how is that the same as robbing a group of people of a place to worship.
cricketjoshila
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Who asked them to convert?
Do Muslims are the only one with rights?
Do other communities not have rights?
Muslims wanted their nation. They got it. Some muslims decided not to move to this new nation. Does that mean Hindus lose their rights to their temples?
Robbing a group of people? The ones robbed are Hindus. Their temples looted, pillaged and broken. Mosques build over them to remind them each and every day of those atrocities.
And even after Muslims got their country, its Hindus who must give up their temples too.
Muslims got their due when they got their country. No one asked anyone to stay back. No guarantees were given that Hindus will keep on sacrificing their rights for Muslims. No guarantees were given that the country would be secular.
Hindus are not ready to sacrifice their rights to their temples just like Muslims didn't sacrifice their right to a country.
These mosques by invaders, erected over broken and looted temples to remind the Hindus how their religion was trampled underfoot of the Muslims have to be returned to their rightful owners.
Its actually much worse for these two reasons:
1. There is only a fringe minority in that venerates these leaders in 2024, unlike Muslims in the subcontinent. The Mughal thread is a live shining example
2. These statutes are not places of worship that are being claimed by anyone, definitely not usurped.
So given the above facts, and that nobody in their right mind is objecting to the pulling down of these statues its a no brainer that the Hindus were well within their rights to pull down that mosque.
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Stewie
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So you guys are basically saying our ancestors were robbed so we will make the offspring of those who robbed our ancestors pay for their crimes. That’s what it is at the end of the day. That’s like saying all whites have to pay reparations for black in the US or that all whites should get up and leave and return the land to the native Americans, however many are left in the country.
It’s actually much worse than that because slavery goes back only to 1865 and the taking of the American lands happened around 1830s or so.
You are trying to take back lands that have has Kashif’s on them for over 500 years. There is no legal precedence of anything like this.
Phir radicals Niklein gay to pakistan ki taraf ungli uthao gay. Perhaps then you should just look at your own house and see exactly what were the factors behind such radicalization and hate.
Remember two wrongs never make a right.
It’s actually much worse than that because slavery goes back only to 1865 and the taking of the American lands happened around 1830s or so.
You are trying to take back lands that have has Kashif’s on them for over 500 years. There is no legal precedence of anything like this.
Phir radicals Niklein gay to pakistan ki taraf ungli uthao gay. Perhaps then you should just look at your own house and see exactly what were the factors behind such radicalization and hate.
Remember two wrongs never make a right.
Cpt. Rishwat
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Which other society would it reflect?
Again a very bad analogy, except for some very tiny fringe elements nobody endorses racism. Infact there are strict laws with significant jailtime as the cop who killed the George Floyd found out.
Muslims however have no such concept of learning from history which is why dealing with them firmly is the only recourse. Tell me why it is the Hindu's that must yield in the case of mosques. Forget condemnation, these people do not even accept that any wrong was done, which is why they go to extreme extents and denying all facts that stare at them.
So when dealing with a morally bankrupt population with a very different moral compass, the only recourse left is force.
Again a incorrect analogy, nobody is asking for all lands ( or all temples) currently owned by Muslims. In this case the problem is that the three Hindu religious sites (Ayodhya, Mathura , Kashi ) cannot be randomly relocated to some place else. I dont understand why this is so hard for people to understand in 2024.
Everybody knows the root cause of this nonsense which is why there is massive support for this movement. Anyone who opposes is being called out publicly and named and shamed as the history, facts are squarely on our side.
Stewie
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Oh wow just wow
You just stereotyped a whole subsection of your country. There are more Muslims in India than Pakistan and you just labeled them all “morally bankrupt”
No wonder India is in the state it is in. When bigots are running rampant and openly suggesting force is the only way to handle Muslims, what more can one expect.
There should be no room for hatred and bigotry anywhere.
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How else would you classify them ?
So let me get this straight..... You are labelling someone a bigot for calling out those who openly support and regard bonafide mass murderers( on top of being a religious fanatic) as heroes in 2024 ? How does this compute?
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There is no tolerance in todays civilized society for people to openly support proper genocidal bigots who actually committed horrendous atrocities that would make Hitler proud. But not surprised to see the brazen open support for some of history's worst human rights offenders... infact I had even predicted that this would happen.
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sweep_shot
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Just like you support "Butcher of Gujarat" (Modi)?
For the record, Modi was banned in USA for nearly a decade.
Go ahead answer my questions ... I will give you proper logical answers.
So far from what I can see you are avoiding the main question... which is : " should people be allowed to treat Barbarians as heroes in 2024 ... and worse have the right to preserve the structures which were a result of pure unadulterated dislike of Hinduism ... so much so that they openly documented these attrocities in black and white"
So far from what I can see you are avoiding the main question... which is : " should people be allowed to treat Barbarians as heroes in 2024 ... and worse have the right to preserve the structures which were a result of pure unadulterated dislike of Hinduism ... so much so that they openly documented these attrocities in black and white"
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cricketjoshila
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Muslims shed a lot of blood in 1946-47 to get a country. They got it.
But they don't want to give anything to other communities in return. Its always their rights that must be respected while others have to compromise.
Hero worshipping Invaders who committed atrocities on other communities is what exactly?
This won't happen now.
Hindus want their temples back and they will take it via legal means.
cricketjoshila
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For the record Modi has been hosted by 3 US presidents and has addressed the US Congress twice.
Modi was an accused once, exonerated long before he became PM.
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Hundreds of years ago, when there was a system of kings and individuals; rulers who did whatever they wanted to do as there was no accountability. Some of them did good stuff as well along with some pretty dark stuff. Now to do the same in today's age does not seem very nice. Hope there are no riots or such things burst in India. This is not good at all.
CricketCartoons
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But if the actions of those individuals still affects present day people, then something must be done about it. It is no argument that since there was no concept of law back then, we must forget it. Why do we have affirmative action then, if not for historical wrongs? If a society does not address historical wrongs, it cannot move forward.
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The actions taken today will be the thought like and taken as the same like India took today against a thing that happened hundreds of years ago. This chain is not going to stop if we as a people are not tolerant enough. This goes for all religions, whether you are a Muslim or a Hindu, you should be able to forgive and tolerate.
Centuries ago, there was no mean or scientific proof that Mandir existed there. A ruler who built a masjid on that pre-existing mandir(still debatable) had no way to confirm those things. It is today's modern technology that made it possible.
CricketCartoons
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Since hindus tolerated desecration of their holy places for centuries, isn't it time for muslims to show tolerance? They should learn to forgive and tolerate. Or only one side is expected to tolerate and make all the concessions?
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Yeah, it should be mutual. What is done is done. Nothing is gonna change. Such types of actions in the future should not be happening as well.
rpant_gabba
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@DeadlyVenom it might be fun to look into all the religions claims. list the ones you feel like discussing besides the lord ram story
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Nothing is gonna change is a dangerous thought.
World is not a disney movie where people live with love and mutual respect. World is very unfair, and everyone is fighting for resources and/or dignity for themselves. if you start forgetting and forgiving, you will be left with the short end of the stick. Conflict will remain till humanity exists.
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when I said nothing is gonna change, it was specifically meant for this Ram Mandir. It has already been constructed now so nothing is gonna change in this regard now for Muslims. But in the future, many things can be changed and mistakes can be rectified.
DeadlyVenom
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I don't share your definition of fun
rpant_gabba
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I mean look at the length of this thread about the lord ram claim.
DeadlyVenom
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The thread is multi faceted - religion, history, identity, colonialism.
Cpt. Rishwat
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In what manner do people openly support proper genocidal bigots? I am assuming you are referring to Muslims living in Bharat here and not hindus themselves.
hoshiarpurexpress
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lol.
In Bharat we condemn Christian britishers and admonish them for there loot and it’s the same for the Mughals.
The difference is British government and most of the British people don’t tell us today that the Raj was a great thing for the natives, something the converted subcontinent Muslims don’t seem to grasp.
Don’t glorify Babar or Aurangzeb and name the Muslim kids after these evil terrorists.
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Cpt. Rishwat
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In answer to your question, your Muslim population in Bharat chose to stay with you, the hindu majority, I doubt very much they glorify Babar or Aurangzeb, unless you consider the monuments left behind by the Mughals as taunting the hindus.
Let me be clear here, we are talking about Muslims living in Bharat, not those who live in Pakistan. Pakistanis got their own country, I imagine they would taunt as they feel like it, but they can't do that in the name of your Muslim citizens.
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DeadlyVenom
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Interesting use of convert for muslims Did Sikhs always exist in the subcontinent?
hoshiarpurexpress
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Sikhism like Jainism and Hinduism originated in Bharat. Islam is a foreign religion and most Pakistanis, even the converted ones deny there roots and consider themselves to be descendants of Arabs and don't consider themselves Bharatiyas.
But the major distinction is that Sikhs and Hindus don't go around murdering people to convert people by force.
Our beloved sikh gurus gave there lives and had their heads cut, there children like zorawar murdered by the Islamic zealots in the name of Islam.
Past cannot be corrected but the first step would be to not glorify such evil terrorists. This concept is lost on most of the sub continent Muslims.
Naming someone Babar or Aurangzeb is akin to naming a kid Hitler. Pure evil.
sweep_shot
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sweep_shot
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Looks like @hoshiarpurexpress is ignorant or careless regarding the anti-Sikh events in India.
Operation Blue Star: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star.
1984 anti-Sikh riot (thousands of Sikhs died): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots.
He doesn't seem to care about these. He only becomes enraged about the Mughals.
Operation Blue Star: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Blue_Star.
1984 anti-Sikh riot (thousands of Sikhs died): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_anti-Sikh_riots.
He doesn't seem to care about these. He only becomes enraged about the Mughals.
hoshiarpurexpress
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You don't seem to have read those pages you posted nor you know anything about what was happening in Punjab. Operation bluestar was to kill terrorist Bhindrawale.. Khalistanis are not Sikhs they are terrorists like Mugals were.Do check the names of who lead Blue Star and who was the Deputy Inspector General of Punjab which cleaned up the Khalistani mess.
Regarding anti Sikh riots, yes they are unfortunate part of our history but they were instigated by the favourite party of Muslims Congress and it's stooges in response to killing of Indira Gandhi.
Here is a difference between Muslims and Sikhs..
I am a Bharatiya first, and My religion of Sikhism comes second. Nation first always.
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sweep_shot
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I try to stick to my lane of facts. You tend to stick to false BJP propagandas.
By the way, you are yet to answer my question on post #697.
hoshiarpurexpress
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Lol really..Babar is a terrorist who destroyed and looted Bharat.
hoshiarpurexpress
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I gave you facts as well. Khalistani terrorists will be eliminated even if they hide in our most sacred place. As I said nation first and religion second.
Cpt. Rishwat
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Why did you need to develop a separate religion to establish that? Could it have not been done under the all inclusive hindu religion?
Stewie
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And Hindus didn’t? Sikhs didn’t?
There were Muslims babies flung in top of Karpans in Indian punjab. But I bet you guys are led to believe it was Muslims who did all the killings while the Hindus and Sikhs were simply lambs to the slaughter.
I suggest all Hindus here to research the atrocities on Muslims during partition as well. This is all propaganda fed to Indian sheep who simply want to believe this nonsense. It somehow makes them feel better and justified when they trample over the rights of their own fellow citizens in their country.
cricketjoshila
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Direct Action Day rings a bell? 1000s of Hindus were killed in my city because Muslims wanted to force a partition.
Anyways, Muslims got their country. Hindus will get their temples.
Muslims cannot and will not have everything. Other communities will have their due too.
Its amusing how Muslims talk about minority rights when in minority, when in majority its all Islamic country.
Stewie
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Let’s not whine as if only Hindus died. Hindus and Sikhs committed equal if not more atrocities resulting in innocent Muslim deaths. And if we had not forced partition we will still be dying and losing our places of worship to Hindu bigots who are running the country today. Thanks but no thanks, glad we got our own piece of land so injustices like the Shahadat of Babri Masjid won’t be suffered by Muslims west of the border.
Stewie
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You can also be grateful for the ability to visit your holy places in Pakistan on pilgrimage. We won’t do an operation blue star on you poor Sikhs.
Stewie
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A lot of underlying negative emotion amongst non Muslim Indians it seems. BJP has weapnized the Islamophobia successfully. Great job!
Muslims cannot even pray in the open in India anymore. The so called secular country will have their heads if they do so.
Then these people point their fingers to what happened 500 years ago. Helluva of a long time to hold a grudge, I say!
Muslims cannot even pray in the open in India anymore. The so called secular country will have their heads if they do so.
Then these people point their fingers to what happened 500 years ago. Helluva of a long time to hold a grudge, I say!
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That is your personal choice to visit any country. Nobody is calling you to visit Pakistan.
Remember 1 thing, 2 wrongs can never make 1 right. What happened 500-600 years ago (if there is some reality in it) cannot be a basis for thing to do today.
hoshiarpurexpress
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But for you guys what happened in Arabia 100s of years ago is a basis of your daily existence?
cricketjoshila
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Muslims started the riots with Direct Action Day. Other communities retaliated.
I am glad my ancestors left East Pakistan many months before partition and we don't have to live like second class citizens.
I don't care what happens to my country's east or west. But you seem to have a lot of opinion on what Indians should do on their land. Like rebuilding their temples.
cricketjoshila
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Muslims cannot pray in the open? Care to elaborate?
Decolonizing doesn't have a time limit.
Spanish were under muslim rule for 500 years till they overthrew them and decolonized.
Greeks were under Ottomans for 400 years before they got freedom and then decolonized.
We are just beginning.
Stewie
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Well same goes for Hindus, actually goes way way before even that. You guys are tearing down mosques on the basis of what happened 5,000 years ago … allegedly.
Let that sink in for second!
Stewie
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Muslim groups oppose prayer ban in open space in Indian state
Muslims have been offering prayers on government-owned land at 37 locations designated by local administration - Anadolu Ajansı
www.aa.com.tr
Stewie
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By the way every action has a reaction. Resulting in an endless cycle. I understand how Hindus and Sikhs feel violated by Muslims. Now they want to do the same to Muslims in the name of decolonization.
Hope you guys bear in mind while using examples of Muslims in Spain, about what sort of repercussions they had to face due to such extreme measures. In this day and age, those measures will be even more extreme thanks to the geopolitical feedback.
I know it’s a dream of sanghis in Bharat but this will only result in a prolonged alienation and turmoil. It’s always better to reconcile and make the best of it with your fellow countrymen. Pakistan made a similar mistake and it didn’t end well for us.
Go and buy a Muslim a cup of chai and be nice to him. Hate doesn’t solve anything.
Hope you guys bear in mind while using examples of Muslims in Spain, about what sort of repercussions they had to face due to such extreme measures. In this day and age, those measures will be even more extreme thanks to the geopolitical feedback.
I know it’s a dream of sanghis in Bharat but this will only result in a prolonged alienation and turmoil. It’s always better to reconcile and make the best of it with your fellow countrymen. Pakistan made a similar mistake and it didn’t end well for us.
Go and buy a Muslim a cup of chai and be nice to him. Hate doesn’t solve anything.
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Thank you for agreeing to my views. Hate has been cemented in human beings just because we are not willing to let go of it and our minds can be manipulated easily by some specific people, and this is not only going to destroy the present, but it will also destroy the future as well.
Stewie
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What’s funny is the people who actually ruined the region are sitting pretty in the west and selling arms to both sides and making profit from this turmoil. I think a prosperous India is good for Pakistan and vice versa. The Indians here complain about the division of the country, well they want to get over it and not further those divisions. Penalizing their own Muslim countrymen for what happened centuries ago or the partition won’t do them any good.
Hitman
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One thing, my pure hatred is only, and only for those Islamic invaders. I don't have a bloody thing against Indian Muslims. If there exists any descendants of those invaders in my country, I don't have a thing against them either. Their ancestors did wrong, they can't be held responsible for that.
What annoys me is when some people in my country try to glorify those invaders, and try to justify their actions of the past.
What annoys me is when some people in my country try to glorify those invaders, and try to justify their actions of the past.
cricketjoshila
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No one is complaining about partition. But what's unnecessary is that pakistan keeps poking its nose in matters of India.
CricketCartoons
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Yes, the onus for peace depends on hindus only. And hindus must give up claim to their demolished temples, otherwise it will be considered penalizing the muslims. Basically hindus should not have rights. In a country where exceptions are always made for muslims, from giving their educational and religious institutions freedom from the state control, exceptions in civilian laws for them, which even the majority hindus don't enjoy. The muslims have developed a sense of entitlement. It is like that relative whom you always help financially, but the day you deny because you have your own expenses to meet, the very same relative will start bad mouthing you everywhere.
Hindus are getting out of this one sided concession. I was one of those people who would walk extra so that I can buy only from a muslim as I thought it is our responsibility that muslims thrive ( I mean even now I am giving my business to muslims, and no matter what I say in public, I develop a soft corner for them when I talk to them due to years of secular brainwashing, which I am trying to overcome).
If anything, muslims have lost the hindu trust by failing to respect their sentiments. The only thing wrong in the Ayodhya judgement was giving 5 acres land to muslims. It is like rewarding squatters by giving them housing so that they vacate their occupied property.
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