Azhar Ali vs Cheteshwar Pujara - Who is better in Tests?

[Ab Fan]

Illogical. Rahane has not got enough of the sample in comparison to Younis to be compared to him. Its like I put Asif vs Kapil Dev and start calling Dev a trundler because of dev's joke like test average. Different eras, different oppositions, different venues and situations matter lots. If Rahane can score 11K runs in same era as Younis then both men can be compared but now they cant be.

Azhar and Pujara belongs to same era and generation (I am assuming both men are not age fudgers even though they come from massive age fudging nations) They faced same oppositions, on same away surfaces. They can be perfectly compared. If you want to compare Younis then he can be compared to Yuvraj singh, Sehwag, Dhoni, Dravid etc

You are not making much sense here. First you are comparing their SENAW stats and then you are talking about overall aggregate runs. If you really have to consider the runs sample then do it for the teams and country for which you are only considering it.

Also, both teams play Sri Lanka also but you have failed to consider that but didn't mind including WI lol

Pretty nice bit of entertainment there.

 

[Mamoon]

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

UAE pitches suit a batsman like Azhar more than Pakistani pitches. UAE pitches offer virtually no assistance to pace bowlers - the ball doesn’t do anything and the overhead conditions don’t support any swing movement either.

On the other hand, Pakistani pitches have relatively more assistance for fast bowlers. That is why Pakistan’s home record improved after moving to the UAE.

Teams like Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand etc. enjoy Pakistani conditions more than UAE conditions.

Had we stayed in Pakistan, there is no way we would have reached the top of rankings in 2016 or whitewashed 2012 England team in Pakistan.

Playing in Rawalpindi or Lahore in early winter morning is a different challenge to playing at Abu Dhabi or Dubai. There is proper swing and seam movement and the chances of failure for a batsman are very high.

Take a look at the 2006 Karachi Test. Have you seen any movement like that in UAE?

Even last December in Karachi, in the Pakistan vs Sri Lanka Test, the ball swung in the first innings and Pakistan was all out of for 191 and Azhar was clean bowled for a second ball duck thanks to an in-swinger.

If you think Azhar is good in UAE, watch what Pujara does on UAE pitches. He is going to make bowlers cry by batting for 4-5 sessions every single time.

This guy doesn’t get out on lively pitches unless it is a magical delivery, let alone on UAE pitches where you rarely get any special deliveries from fast bowlers.

As far as ODIs are concerned, what is the point of this false equivalence? Comparing Pujara and Azhar records would have been useful if other factors and variables would have been equal.

Pujara has only played 5 ODIs for India in his career because India have top-order batsmen like Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan and KL Rahul.

They also have Rahane in reserves who is capable of batting at a higher tempo than Pujara.

As a result, they don’t need to select a slow tempo player like Pujara when they have an embarrassment of riches.

On the other hand, Azhar played 53 ODIs for Pakistan because Pakistan did not have any quality top-order batsmen in ODIs.

If Pujara was in Pakistan, he would have played 100+ ODIs for Pakistan as an opener or number 3, and Azhar wouldn’t have gotten a game for India in ODI cricket.

He probably wouldn’t even have made their Test squad, but he definitely wouldn’t have been selected in ODIs.

Azhar is a good player but Pujara is simply better. He is almost Dravid level. Apart from the 2016-17 period where Azhar ran him close, Pujara has been the better batsman overall over the course of his career.

 

[MesonK]

You are not making much sense here. First you are comparing their SENAW stats and then you are talking about overall aggregate runs. If you really have to consider the runs sample then do it for the teams and country for which you are only considering it.

Also, both teams play Sri Lanka also but you have failed to consider that but didn't mind including WI lol

Pretty nice bit of entertainment there.

Where did I say I am going to compare overall runs ? even if we do they have almost similar record.

Srilanka, Bangladesh, UAE are in South Asia (UAE is in Persian Gulf but nearby South Asian climate) where we will always get inflated scores from batsmen. Pujara averages 59 at home, Azhar averages 54 in UAE so comparing these batting friendly easy runs is of no use when we are comparing their actual capabilities against tougher oppositions.

Also, both teams play Sri Lanka also but you have failed to consider that but didn't mind including WI lol

Pretty nice bit of entertainment there.

SENA+WI is totally alien to any South Asian batsmen who grew up batting on slow batting friendly pitches and that's where real capabilities of a batsman is shown when he is under pressure to score in an alien environment far far away from home in traditionally fast bowling reliant sides. Azhar and Pujara have almost ditto records in these conditions.

If we start including runs in homes, SL and Bangladesh then hacks like Abid Ali will end up outshining Warners and Roots of this generation.

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

UAE pitches suit a batsman like Azhar more than Pakistani pitches. UAE pitches offer virtually no assistance to pace bowlers - the ball doesn’t do anything and the overhead conditions don’t support any swing movement either.

On the other hand, Pakistani pitches have relatively more assistance for fast bowlers. That is why Pakistan’s home record improved after moving to the UAE.

You could not be more wrong than this. Here is the counter to your "claim" that UAE pitches support spinners more.

7 out of top 12 bowlers by average (min 20 wickets) in UAE are pacemen. As a matter of fact top 3 are pacemen. So much for UAE is a spinners paradise....

Mohammad Abbas (PAK) 17.55
JM Anderson (ENG) 20.54
SCJ Broad (ENG) 22.85
Yasir Shah (PAK) 24.56
Saeed Ajmal (PAK) 26.46
HMRKB Herath (SL) 28.65
Umar Gul (PAK) 31.89
Abdur Rehman (PAK) 30.47
Junaid Khan (PAK) 32.26
Wahab Riaz (PAK) 33.52
Rahat Ali (PAK) 39.04

[MENTION=138806]

Teams like Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand etc. enjoy Pakistani conditions more than UAE conditions.

These teams have never played in pak for last 12 years so we do not know what they enjoy or what they do not enjoy on Pakistani surfaces. SA is playing its first test in Pak is going to lose the series most probably. Stop making claims based on opinions.

Had we stayed in Pakistan, there is no way we would have reached the top of rankings in 2016 or whitewashed 2012 England team in Pakistan.

Playing in Rawalpindi or Lahore in early winter morning is a different challenge to playing at Abu Dhabi or Dubai. There is proper swing and seam movement and the chances of failure for a batsman are very high.

These are your opinions/wishes/predictions which could be anything. Fact remains that we literally have no evidence of how Pakistani team could have played at home in last 12-13 years. We never got the chance. Batsmen usually score the highest number of their runs at home and Pakistani batsmen like Azhar, YK, Misbah, Shafiq never got the chance to score in much much familiar conditions in front of home crowds in last 12 years. Pakistani cricket was ripped apart by that SL team incident. Unless we have actual numbers we can only give baseless opinions.

Take a look at the 2006 Karachi Test. Have you seen any movement like that in UAE?

Even last December in Karachi, in the Pakistan vs Sri Lanka Test, the ball swung in the first innings and Pakistan was all out of for 191 and Azhar was clean bowled for a second ball duck thanks to an in-swinger.

AA scored 118 in the very next innings of the same match at strike rate of 75. The innings you are talking about is the one in AA was out in the middle in beginning 5 overs of the game like most of his career. He is basically an opener. So if you remember his 0 then also remember his 118 in next innings.

By the way, do you want me to list how many times has Pujara been out in the middle in opening 5 overs of the game against new ball coming out of the hands of fresh bodied Fast bowlers? Trust me you dont want to take me on with the stats.

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

If you think Azhar is good in UAE, watch what Pujara does on UAE pitches. He is going to make bowlers cry by batting for 4-5 sessions every single time.

This guy doesn’t get out on lively pitches unless it is a magical delivery, let alone on UAE pitches where you rarely get any special deliveries from fast bowlers.

AA averages 54 at UAE and is averaging close to 50 in Pakistan. What is the difference ? You are making it sound like there is some HUGE gap in Azhars numbers on surfaces in UAE and Pakistan. Post SA series he might be averaging 50-52 in Pakistan too (at age 35). Your argument is flawed.

If he would have had the chance to play his entire career in Pakistan he would have scored at similar averages, may be close to 55.

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

This guy doesn’t get out on lively pitches unless it is a magical delivery, let alone on UAE pitches where you rarely get any special deliveries from fast bowlers.

Should/Would/Could based fan praises do not matter. Show me numbers like Pujara and AA have literally the same SENA+WI record. One is a middle order batsman while AA is practically an opener in a far far weaker batting lineup. So how come one is better ? because he has higher number of fans ?

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]
As far as ODIs are concerned, what is the point of this false equivalence? Comparing Pujara and Azhar records would have been useful if other factors and variables would have been equal.

Pujara has only played 5 ODIs for India in his career because India have top-order batsmen like Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan and KL Rahul.

They also have Rahane in reserves who is capable of batting at a higher tempo than Pujara.

As a result, they don’t need to select a slow tempo player like Pujara when they have an embarrassment of riches.

On the other hand, Azhar played 53 ODIs for Pakistan because Pakistan did not have any quality top-order batsmen in ODIs.

AA has a decent ODI record too and had he been more persistent with his fitness or had shown the intent to carry on with ODI he could have had a very decent or very good ODI record for a South Asian batsman. If Pujara can be praised for Australian Series Win that AA can be praised for his CT17 stability providing innings as an opener. We are talking about accolades here not which side has what. AA provided Pakistan with good innings in CT17 which is one of his accolades. Point is both these players have been instrumental in their teams wins. Accolade wise AA is not behind Pujara. We can go in details if you seek to.

[MENTION=138806]
If Pujara was in Pakistan, he would have played 100+ ODIs for Pakistan as an opener or number 3, and Azhar wouldn’t have gotten a game for India in ODI cricket.

Shoulda/Woulda/Coulda theories do not matter here. Filtered Stats matter. Both have same numbers and accolades.

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

He probably wouldn’t even have made their Test squad, but he definitely wouldn’t have been selected in ODIs.

My Stats over Should/Would/Could theories any day ...

Considering that India plays lots of away tests in SENA lets consider the batting averages of AA's generations Indian batsmen on those surfaces. AA has better or on par records overall than Dhoni, Dhawan, Y Singh and is on par with Pujara (their second best batsmen after Kohli). Please justify to me how come AA would not have been selected in Indian test squad when he is ... 1) basically an opener+one down+2nd down batsman 2) has equivalent away records with 2nd best Indian test batsmen in last decade in tough most away conditions

AA, Pujara, Dhawan, Dhoni, Y Singh(away in SENA+WI)

vs AUS .... 52 , 47, 27, 19, 4
vs WI .... 41, 20, 34, 22, 17
vs ENG .... 33, 29, 20, 37, 35
vs NZ .... 35, 20, 53, 54, 31
vs SA .... 17, 31, 18, 28, 53

100s in SENA+WI ... 6, 5, 0, 0, 1

[MENTION=138806]

Azhar is a good player but Pujara is simply better. He is almost Dravid level.

Fan opinions do not matter, numbers matter. AA and CP have identical away record and almost similar home record too, equal number of away 100s. AA has had to face more pressure in his entire career when he was supported by no one at top while Pujara hid well down the order under you know whom.

[MENTION=138806]
Apart from the 2016-17 period where Azhar ran him close, Pujara has been the better batsman overall over the course of his career.

You are again more wrong than ever. AA has averaged 7/11 times higher in an year than CP.

LOL

year 2010 37.71 26.25 AA
year 2011 45.75 2.00 AA
year 2012 55.10 81.75 CP
year 2013 19.28 75.36 CP
year 2014 51.33 24.15 AA
year 2015 57.60 49.57 AA
year 2016 63.05 55.73 AA
year 2017 42.00 67.05 CP
year 2018 30.41 38.04 CP
year 2019 21.72 46.09 CP
year 2020 41.00 20.37 AA
year 2021 60.33 52.00 AA

 

[avihash]

Where did I say I am going to compare overall runs ? even if we do they have almost similar record.

Srilanka, Bangladesh, UAE are in South Asia (UAE is in Persian Gulf but nearby South Asian climate) where we will always get inflated scores from batsmen. Pujara averages 59 at home, Azhar averages 54 in UAE so comparing these batting friendly easy runs is of no use when we are comparing their actual capabilities against tougher oppositions.



SENA+WI is totally alien to any South Asian batsmen who grew up batting on slow batting friendly pitches and that's where real capabilities of a batsman is shown when he is under pressure to score in an alien environment far far away from home in traditionally fast bowling reliant sides. Azhar and Pujara have almost ditto records in these conditions.

If we start including runs in homes, SL and Bangladesh then hacks like Abid Ali will end up outshining Warners and Roots of this generation.



You could not be more wrong than this. Here is the counter to your "claim" that UAE pitches support spinners more.

7 out of top 12 bowlers by average (min 20 wickets) in UAE are pacemen. As a matter of fact top 3 are pacemen. So much for UAE is a spinners paradise....

Mohammad Abbas (PAK) 17.55
JM Anderson (ENG) 20.54
SCJ Broad (ENG) 22.85
Yasir Shah (PAK) 24.56
Saeed Ajmal (PAK) 26.46
HMRKB Herath (SL) 28.65
Umar Gul (PAK) 31.89
Abdur Rehman (PAK) 30.47
Junaid Khan (PAK) 32.26
Wahab Riaz (PAK) 33.52
Rahat Ali (PAK) 39.04



These teams have never played in pak for last 12 years so we do not know what they enjoy or what they do not enjoy on Pakistani surfaces. SA is playing its first test in Pak is going to lose the series most probably. Stop making claims based on opinions.



These are your opinions/wishes/predictions which could be anything. Fact remains that we literally have no evidence of how Pakistani team could have played at home in last 12-13 years. We never got the chance. Batsmen usually score the highest number of their runs at home and Pakistani batsmen like Azhar, YK, Misbah, Shafiq never got the chance to score in much much familiar conditions in front of home crowds in last 12 years. Pakistani cricket was ripped apart by that SL team incident. Unless we have actual numbers we can only give baseless opinions.



AA scored 118 in the very next innings of the same match at strike rate of 75. The innings you are talking about is the one in AA was out in the middle in beginning 5 overs of the game like most of his career. He is basically an opener. So if you remember his 0 then also remember his 118 in next innings.

By the way, do you want me to list how many times has Pujara been out in the middle in opening 5 overs of the game against new ball coming out of the hands of fresh bodied Fast bowlers? Trust me you dont want to take me on with the stats.



AA averages 54 at UAE and is averaging close to 50 in Pakistan. What is the difference ? You are making it sound like there is some HUGE gap in Azhars numbers on surfaces in UAE and Pakistan. Post SA series he might be averaging 50-52 in Pakistan too (at age 35). Your argument is flawed.

If he would have had the chance to play his entire career in Pakistan he would have scored at similar averages, may be close to 55.




Should/Would/Could based fan praises do not matter. Show me numbers like Pujara and AA have literally the same SENA+WI record. One is a middle order batsman while AA is practically an opener in a far far weaker batting lineup. So how come one is better ? because he has higher number of fans ?




AA has a decent ODI record too and had he been more persistent with his fitness or had shown the intent to carry on with ODI he could have had a very decent or very good ODI record for a South Asian batsman. If Pujara can be praised for Australian Series Win that AA can be praised for his CT17 stability providing innings as an opener. We are talking about accolades here not which side has what. AA provided Pakistan with good innings in CT17 which is one of his accolades. Point is both these players have been instrumental in their teams wins. Accolade wise AA is not behind Pujara. We can go in details if you seek to.



Shoulda/Woulda/Coulda theories do not matter here. Filtered Stats matter. Both have same numbers and accolades.



My Stats over Should/Would/Could theories any day ...

Considering that India plays lots of away tests in SENA lets consider the batting averages of AA's generations Indian batsmen on those surfaces. AA has better or on par records overall than Dhoni, Dhawan, Y Singh and is on par with Pujara (their second best batsmen after Kohli). Please justify to me how come AA would not have been selected in Indian test squad when he is ... 1) basically an opener+one down+2nd down batsman 2) has equivalent away records with 2nd best Indian test batsmen in last decade in tough most away conditions

AA, Pujara, Dhawan, Dhoni, Y Singh(away in SENA+WI)

vs AUS .... 52 , 47, 27, 19, 4
vs WI .... 41, 20, 34, 22, 17
vs ENG .... 33, 29, 20, 37, 35
vs NZ .... 35, 20, 53, 54, 31
vs SA .... 17, 31, 18, 28, 53

100s in SENA+WI ... 6, 5, 0, 0, 1



Fan opinions do not matter, numbers matter. AA and CP have identical away record and almost similar home record too, equal number of away 100s. AA has had to face more pressure in his entire career when he was supported by no one at top while Pujara hid well down the order under you know whom.



You are again more wrong than ever. AA has averaged 7/11 times higher in an year than CP.

LOL

year 2010 37.71 26.25 AA
year 2011 45.75 2.00 AA
year 2012 55.10 81.75 CP
year 2013 19.28 75.36 CP
year 2014 51.33 24.15 AA
year 2015 57.60 49.57 AA
year 2016 63.05 55.73 AA
year 2017 42.00 67.05 CP
year 2018 30.41 38.04 CP
year 2019 21.72 46.09 CP
year 2020 41.00 20.37 AA
year 2021 60.33 52.00 AA

In simple terms, Pujara scores runs that matter and grinds down bowling attacks to win series. Same is evident in 2 test series victories in aus.

Azhar Ali scores soft runs in losing causes to ensure he hangs on for 5 more matches.

You don’t need to be a data scientist to see this.

 

[Mobashir]

In simple terms, Pujara scores runs that matter and grinds down bowling attacks to win series. Same is evident in 2 test series victories in aus.

Azhar Ali scores soft runs in losing causes to ensure he hangs on for 5 more matches.

You don’t need to be a data scientist to see this.

If it's only about winning or loosing no need to compare individual players but just team results. MesonK has posted a good detailed analysis and as you had nothing to say you came up with team results when this thread is about individual performances.

 

[Pakhs]

In simple terms, Pujara scores runs that matter and grinds down bowling attacks to win series. Same is evident in 2 test series victories in aus.

Azhar Ali scores soft runs in losing causes to ensure he hangs on for 5 more matches.

You don’t need to be a data scientist to see this.

If it's only about winning or loosing no need to compare individual players but just team results. MesonK has posted a good detailed analysis and as you had nothing to say you came up with team results when this thread is about individual performances.

Yes this poster has had a reality check on Pujara and yet to recover. Bringing up team results etc why did Pujara not help Inida win series in England despite Kholi heroics? Even if he average mid 30 India would have won but he made sure he performed like number 11 and refused to score easy runs. In fact Pujara like to score easy runs when the whole team is already performing so they win.

Pujara averages in 20s in Eng, SA& Aus. his average in WI after 6 match is also around 30 he has been below average player for most part of his career with on or two good series out of many he played.

 

[avihash]

Yes this poster has had a reality check on Pujara and yet to recover. Bringing up team results etc why did Pujara not help Inida win series in England despite Kholi heroics? Even if he average mid 30 India would have won but he made sure he performed like number 11 and refused to score easy runs. In fact Pujara like to score easy runs when the whole team is already performing so they win.

Pujara averages in 20s in Eng, SA& Aus. his average in WI after 6 match is also around 30 he has been below average player for most part of his career with on or two good series out of many he played.

Individual performances bring team results.

No matter how you twist it to satisfy your fake theories, Azhar Ali will never deliver a series win in australia. Nor will Babur.

Pujara has already done it twice, because he is twice the player than babur and Ali combined.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Individual performances bring team results.

No matter how you twist it to satisfy your fake theories, Azhar Ali will never deliver a series win in australia. Nor will Babur.

Pujara has already done it twice, because he is twice the player than babur and Ali combined.

So Pujara is responsible for the bowlers taking 20 wickets? I suppose that means we should have taken 20 wickets at 20 a piece in that match that Azhar scored 200 in Australia.

 

[Sachin136]

I think there are only around 10 people in the world who think Azhar is anywhere close to Pujara. 5 are on this forum and 5 are Azhar's immediate family.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

I think there are only around 10 people in the world who think Azhar is anywhere close to Pujara. 5 are on this forum and 5 are Azhar's immediate family.

Pujara and Azhar have identical stats. Pujara might be better plus minus but he looks a lot, lot better because he plays for a better team.

 

[Mobashir]

I think there are only around 10 people in the world who think Azhar is anywhere close to Pujara. 5 are on this forum and 5 are Azhar's immediate family.

Not far from the truth.

I actually rate Pujara higher than Azhar Ali for the moment but there isn't that much difference.

The fact that only 10 people think Azhar is anywhere near Pujara shows just how much Indian players are over-rated.

 

[avihash]

So Pujara is responsible for the bowlers taking 20 wickets? I suppose that means we should have taken 20 wickets at 20 a piece in that match that Azhar scored 200 in Australia.

Very well might be the reason. Softens the opposition batsmen up when they have been chasing leather for over 125 overs an innings.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Very well might be the reason. Softens the opposition batsmen up when they have been chasing leather for over 125 overs an innings.

Maybe not 125 but is 126 overs fine? Look how softened up the Aussies were.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...a-vs-pakistan-2nd-test-1000883/full-scorecard

 

[avihash]

Maybe not 125 but is 126 overs fine? Look how softened up the Aussies were.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...a-vs-pakistan-2nd-test-1000883/full-scorecard

Not sure why you would flaunt an innings defeat.

If your point is on Ali’s contribution, am not sure what you are trying to prove. The only possible outcome was for pak to force a draw and even that he couldn’t achieve. Seems his average is built on such meaningless innings after all.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Not sure why you would flaunt an innings defeat.

If your point is on Ali’s contribution, am not sure what you are trying to prove. The only possible outcome was for pak to force a draw and even that he couldn’t achieve. Seems his average is built on such meaningless innings after all.

My point is that it makes no sense to call Azhar’s runs “soft runs in losing causes” while Pujara “grinds down opposition for 125 overs”. If you can’t see the contradiction in your earlier claim and understand the importance of the bowling unit to back performances like that of Azhar’s and Pujara’s, then I can’t help you.

Let me repeat, Azhar made 205* carrying the bat as opener in the first innings of a Test leading the team to make 450 runs and put the team in an unassailable position. If Pujara had done the exact same carrying his bat for 205*, then Bumrah and Shami came out to wipe Australia for 250 odd, Pujara’s knock would be called an ATG knock similar to how Pant’s knocks now are being called ATG knocks by certain posters on this forum.

I will repeat again- in my mind there is no difference between Azhar and Pujara other than the fact that one plays for a much stronger team which means the performances do not go in vain.

 

[avihash]

My point is that it makes no sense to call Azhar’s runs “soft runs in losing causes” while Pujara “grinds down opposition for 125 overs”. If you can’t see the contradiction in your earlier claim and understand the importance of the bowling unit to back performances like that of Azhar’s and Pujara’s, then I can’t help you.

Let me repeat, Azhar made 205* carrying the bat as opener in the first innings of a Test leading the team to make 450 runs and put the team in an unassailable position. If Pujara had done the exact same carrying his bat for 205*, then Bumrah and Shami came out to wipe Australia for 250 odd, Pujara’s knock would be called an ATG knock similar to how Pant’s knocks now are being called ATG knocks by certain posters on this forum.

I will repeat again- in my mind there is no difference between Azhar and Pujara other than the fact that one plays for a much stronger team which means the performances do not go in vain.

Aus was so concerned by the talents of Azhar Ali and Babur Azam that they dropped Cummins from this test and played Jackson bird instead.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Aus was so concerned by the talents of Azhar Ali and Babur Azam that they dropped Cummins from this test and played Jackson bird instead.

Cummins made his return to Test cricket after 5 years in March 2017. Who are you trying to troll?

 

[avihash]

Cummins made his return to Test cricket after 5 years in March 2017. Who are you trying to troll?

That explains the Ali performance.
So he can’t draw a test against a team whose 3rd seamer is Jackson bird ? And he is comparable to Pujara. Sure.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

That explains the Ali performance.
So he can’t draw a test against a team whose 3rd seamer is Jackson bird ? And he is comparable to Pujara. Sure.

I guess not worth discussing with you then. Fair enough.

 

[MesonK]

In simple terms, Pujara scores runs that matter and grinds down bowling attacks to win series. Same is evident in 2 test series victories in aus.

Azhar Ali scores soft runs in losing causes to ensure he hangs on for 5 more matches.

You don’t need to be a data scientist to see this.

This is a baseless claim, totally opposite to stat based reality.

Azhar averages 43 and 26 in pressure situations i.e. 3rd and 4th innings of test matches (the most pressure exerting part of a test match) respectively while Pujara averages 39 and 30 ... very similar record. Also please keep in mind the ridiculous Pakistani batting lineups either putting up a target in 3rd innings or chasing in 4th innings. Literally always collapsing ... yet AA has these numbers on par with CP.

AA/CP
3rd Innings 43/39
4th Innings 26/30

Also they are also on par in win and loss averages.

AA/CP
Wins 53/56
Losses 31/25

...

Some radical fans need to make peace with the fact that AA = CP when it comes to proper filtered stats

Fan opinions and claims do not matter here but filtered numbers do and they reveal the real story. These two men have almost same stats (away averages against tough teams, overall stats etc). AA comes from dark era of his team (match fixing, corruption, no home cricket), basically an upper middle order batsman who had to adjust to became a pressure situation opener, he has always been at disadvantage still he managed to have on par numbers with CP who comes from financially very strong and well established cricketing setup. AA born in a better setup would have scored 8-10K test runs at 47-50 test average.

 

[MesonK]

I think there are only around 10 people in the world who think Azhar is anywhere close to Pujara. 5 are on this forum and 5 are Azhar's immediate family.

Better to be among those 10 people who rely on filtered stats rather than being a blind fan who gives baseless biased opinions/assumptions.

AA has literally on par record to CP and no amounts of words can change that.

 

[avihash]

I guess not worth discussing with you then. Fair enough.

I wouldn’t urge you to discuss or not. But since you seem to pride on making logical statements, you wouldn’t be having this discussion if you looked at their career averages and for how long which of them has been a part of top 10 test rankings. It is one thing to be emotional and another to be logical.

If you genuinely feel that Azhar Ali’s batting can win or draw you a series against peak Cummins , Lyon and Hazlewood, I would take your word for it.

 

[avihash]

This is a baseless claim, totally opposite to stat based reality.

Azhar averages 43 and 26 in pressure situations i.e. 3rd and 4th innings of test matches (the most pressure exerting part of a test match) respectively while Pujara averages 39 and 30 ... very similar record. Also please keep in mind the ridiculous Pakistani batting lineups either putting up a target in 3rd innings or chasing in 4th innings. Literally always collapsing ... yet AA has these numbers on par with CP.

AA/CP
3rd Innings 43/39
4th Innings 26/30

Also they are also on par in win and loss averages.

AA/CP
Wins 53/56
Losses 31/25

...

Some radical fans need to make peace with the fact that AA = CP when it comes to proper filtered stats

Fan opinions and claims do not matter here but filtered numbers do and they reveal the real story. These two men have almost same stats (away averages against tough teams, overall stats etc). AA comes from dark era of his team (match fixing, corruption, no home cricket), basically an upper middle order batsman who had to adjust to became a pressure situation opener, he has always been at disadvantage still he managed to have on par numbers with CP who comes from financially very strong and well established cricketing setup. AA born in a better setup would have scored 8-10K test runs at 47-50 test average.

Statistically speaking, Ravindra Jadeja = Imran Khan in test matches. Can you validate pl ?

 

[PakPremi]

Statistically speaking, Ravindra Jadeja = Imran Khan in test matches. Can you validate pl ?

Quality of opposition is far inferior nowadays. Just for example how many Australian batsmen who played in the two series vs india could feature in the team Imran Khan played. Anyway with Azhar vs Pujara, playing in same era it's you who needs to look beyond stats As many posters including myself pointed out Pujara ays in a team of solid batsmen and Azhar amongat the weak and unsettled ones.

 

[MesonK]

Statistically speaking, Ravindra Jadeja = Imran Khan in test matches. Can you validate pl ?

Ridiculous comparison (because you are left with nothing else to add to the discussion)

Different eras players cant be compared. They never faced same oppositions in same conditions on same surfaces playing same brand of cricket.

AA and CP belong to same generation, have very very similar sample size of same era, faced same opposition on same surfaces, have very similar roles in their teams. Their stats can be compared ! and by those filtered stats (away avg against tough oppositions, no. of away 100s, home avg, pressure situation avg etc) AA = CP. No amount of fan opinions can change that.

 

[MesonK]

For future reference ... here is the filtered stats.

AA/CP years by year avg ... AA 7/12 times has better avg than Pujara
year 2010 37.71 26.25 Winner AA
year 2011 45.75 2.00 Winner AA
year 2012 55.10 81.75 Winner CP
year 2013 19.28 75.36 Winner CP
year 2014 51.33 24.15 Winner AA
year 2015 57.60 49.57 Winner AA
year 2016 63.05 55.73 Winner AA
year 2017 42.00 67.05 Winner CP
year 2018 30.41 38.04 Winner CP
year 2019 21.72 46.09 Winner CP
year 2020 41.00 20.37 Winner AA
year 2021 60.33 52.00 Winner AA

AA/CP in tougher parts of the test matches
3rd Innings 43/39 (Winner AA)
4th Innings 26/30 (Winner CP)

AA/CP avg in Wins and Losses
Wins 53/56 (Winner CP)
Losses 31/25 (Winner AA)

AA/CP in SENA+WI
vs AUS .... 52/47 (Winner AA)
vs WI .... 41/20 (Winner AA)
vs ENG .... 33/29 (Winner AA)
vs NZ .... 35/20 (Winner AA)
vs SA .... 17/31 (Winner CP)

AA/CP 100s in SENA+WI
6, 5 (Winner AA)

AA/CP Overall away Average
37/37 (Tie)

....

Pakistani fans need to support their cricketers better if they deserve it. AA definitely deserves more support than he gets.

 

[Khan12]

Pujara is better, but some people here are acting as if azhar is being comapred to Don bradman or something hes being compared with pujara who is just a bit better.

 

[Pakhs]

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

UAE pitches suit a batsman like Azhar more than Pakistani pitches. UAE pitches offer virtually no assistance to pace bowlers - the ball doesn’t do anything and the overhead conditions don’t support any swing movement either.

On the other hand, Pakistani pitches have relatively more assistance for fast bowlers. That is why Pakistan’s home record improved after moving to the UAE.

Teams like Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand etc. enjoy Pakistani conditions more than UAE conditions.

Had we stayed in Pakistan, there is no way we would have reached the top of rankings in 2016 or whitewashed 2012 England team in Pakistan.

Playing in Rawalpindi or Lahore in early winter morning is a different challenge to playing at Abu Dhabi or Dubai. There is proper swing and seam movement and the chances of failure for a batsman are very high.

Take a look at the 2006 Karachi Test. Have you seen any movement like that in UAE?

Even last December in Karachi, in the Pakistan vs Sri Lanka Test, the ball swung in the first innings and Pakistan was all out of for 191 and Azhar was clean bowled for a second ball duck thanks to an in-swinger.

If you think Azhar is good in UAE, watch what Pujara does on UAE pitches. He is going to make bowlers cry by batting for 4-5 sessions every single time.

This guy doesn’t get out on lively pitches unless it is a magical delivery, let alone on UAE pitches where you rarely get any special deliveries from fast bowlers.

As far as ODIs are concerned, what is the point of this false equivalence? Comparing Pujara and Azhar records would have been useful if other factors and variables would have been equal.

Pujara has only played 5 ODIs for India in his career because India have top-order batsmen like Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan and KL Rahul.

They also have Rahane in reserves who is capable of batting at a higher tempo than Pujara.

As a result, they don’t need to select a slow tempo player like Pujara when they have an embarrassment of riches.

On the other hand, Azhar played 53 ODIs for Pakistan because Pakistan did not have any quality top-order batsmen in ODIs.

If Pujara was in Pakistan, he would have played 100+ ODIs for Pakistan as an opener or number 3, and Azhar wouldn’t have gotten a game for India in ODI cricket.

He probably wouldn’t even have made their Test squad, but he definitely wouldn’t have been selected in ODIs.

Azhar is a good player but Pujara is simply better. He is almost Dravid level. Apart from the 2016-17 period where Azhar ran him close, Pujara has been the better batsman overall over the course of his career.

BIG JOKE POST! Rahul level.. the guy averages 20s in ENG, NZ and SA and has less overseas 100s than Azhar. Azhar averages higher away. Pujara has a tailendar average where ball moves an millimeter.

 

[Pakhs]

Pujara is better, but some people here are acting as if azhar is being comapred to Don bradman or something hes being compared with pujara who is just a bit better.

Pujara is not better even Azhar will eventually average in over 50s in Pakistan same as Pujara in India. Azhar has a better away record where pujara averages in 20s in ENG, SA & NZ.

 

[avihash]

Ridiculous comparison (because you are left with nothing else to add to the discussion)

Different eras players cant be compared. They never faced same oppositions in same conditions on same surfaces playing same brand of cricket.

AA and CP belong to same generation, have very very similar sample size of same era, faced same opposition on same surfaces, have very similar roles in their teams. Their stats can be compared ! and by those filtered stats (away avg against tough oppositions, no. of away 100s, home avg, pressure situation avg etc) AA = CP. No amount of fan opinions can change that.

Lol at the defensive post.

Now you know why statistical comparison isn't everything.

 

[Bigboii]

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

UAE pitches suit a batsman like Azhar more than Pakistani pitches. UAE pitches offer virtually no assistance to pace bowlers - the ball doesn’t do anything and the overhead conditions don’t support any swing movement either.

On the other hand, Pakistani pitches have relatively more assistance for fast bowlers. That is why Pakistan’s home record improved after moving to the UAE.

Teams like Australia, England, South Africa, New Zealand etc. enjoy Pakistani conditions more than UAE conditions.

Had we stayed in Pakistan, there is no way we would have reached the top of rankings in 2016 or whitewashed 2012 England team in Pakistan.

Playing in Rawalpindi or Lahore in early winter morning is a different challenge to playing at Abu Dhabi or Dubai. There is proper swing and seam movement and the chances of failure for a batsman are very high.

Take a look at the 2006 Karachi Test. Have you seen any movement like that in UAE?

Even last December in Karachi, in the Pakistan vs Sri Lanka Test, the ball swung in the first innings and Pakistan was all out of for 191 and Azhar was clean bowled for a second ball duck thanks to an in-swinger.

If you think Azhar is good in UAE, watch what Pujara does on UAE pitches. He is going to make bowlers cry by batting for 4-5 sessions every single time.

This guy doesn’t get out on lively pitches unless it is a magical delivery, let alone on UAE pitches where you rarely get any special deliveries from fast bowlers.

As far as ODIs are concerned, what is the point of this false equivalence? Comparing Pujara and Azhar records would have been useful if other factors and variables would have been equal.

Pujara has only played 5 ODIs for India in his career because India have top-order batsmen like Kohli, Rohit, Dhawan and KL Rahul.

They also have Rahane in reserves who is capable of batting at a higher tempo than Pujara.

As a result, they don’t need to select a slow tempo player like Pujara when they have an embarrassment of riches.

On the other hand, Azhar played 53 ODIs for Pakistan because Pakistan did not have any quality top-order batsmen in ODIs.

If Pujara was in Pakistan, he would have played 100+ ODIs for Pakistan as an opener or number 3, and Azhar wouldn’t have gotten a game for India in ODI cricket.

He probably wouldn’t even have made their Test squad, but he definitely wouldn’t have been selected in ODIs.

Azhar is a good player but Pujara is simply better. He is almost Dravid level. Apart from the 2016-17 period where Azhar ran him close, Pujara has been the better batsman overall over the course of his career.

[MENTION=143935]avihash[/MENTION] learn something instead of posting one liners filled with biases and no substance

Good and balanced post (maybe MIG worked his magic and made it look better than it actually was) and I agree with you on this one
Even though some posters are making it sound like Pujara is miles ahead of Azhar but that's not true and if they followed Pak cricket they would know
Pujara looks better because of superior batting lineup surrounding him but even if we consider that I still think Pujara is a better bat than Azhar (because of reasons you already explained)
But to suggest the conversation/debate is not worth having because of a big difference in batting pedigree
That's simply untrue

But one point I want to ask you
For both of them moving ball seems to be thier achilles heel
Who would you pick to face jimmy anderson at lords

A prime pre knee injury Azhar or Pujara (still in his prime I believe)?

 

[avihash]

[MENTION=143935]avihash[/MENTION] learn something instead of posting one liners filled with biases and no substance

Good and balanced post (maybe MIG worked his magic and made it look better than it actually was) and I agree with you on this one
Even though some posters are making it sound like Pujara is miles ahead of Azhar but that's not true and if they followed Pak cricket they would know
Pujara looks better because of superior batting lineup surrounding him but even if we consider that I still think Pujara is a better bat than Azhar (because of reasons you already explained)
But to suggest the conversation/debate is not worth having because of a big difference in batting pedigree
That's simply untrue

But one point I want to ask you
For both of them moving ball seems to be thier achilles heel
Who would you pick to face jimmy anderson at lords

A prime pre knee injury Azhar or Pujara (still in his prime I believe)?

I would suggest you don’t tell others what to learn when your own though process is severely deficient. The flawed argument here is based on nitpicking of stats. Continuing in same vein I suggested to check the diff b/w test stats of Imran and Jadeja. Instead of a ready number driven analysis what I received was a emotional outburst. So lol at your judgement and reasoning.

Coming to Pujara vs Ali, check diff in avg. & who has been higher ranked for how long. The reason I wrote a one liner was because of the collective intelligence at display.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Okay, lets settle this [MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]
Gautam Gambhir in SENA- avg 37
Azhar Ali in SENA avg- 35

Overall away avg
azhar 41.8
Gambhir 43.8

Now apart from the fact that he averages more in SENA he also has much more clutch performances including a daddy hundred to draw a match and therefore win a series in NZ also a draw series in SA, where he made 3 or four 50+ score i think.

So the stats in "Difficult Conditions" clearly reveal that Gambhir is atleast as good as Azhar if not better.
Also their overall averages are quite close and Gambhir was always an opener, gambhir 41.96 azhar 42.9

But still i will take an Azhar ali over Gambhir . In the same way i will take Pujara ahead of Azhar any day of the week, its about performances and not just stats.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

I would suggest you don’t tell others what to learn when your own though process is severely deficient. The flawed argument here is based on nitpicking of stats. Continuing in same vein I suggested to check the diff b/w test stats of Imran and Jadeja. Instead of a ready number driven analysis what I received was a emotional outburst. So lol at your judgement and reasoning.

Coming to Pujara vs Ali, check diff in avg. & who has been higher ranked for how long. The reason I wrote a one liner was because of the collective intelligence at display.

Check difference in away average (zero) then look at home average (marginal difference). Now consider that Azhar Ali has almost never played at home.

If your best reply is to insult the collective intelligence rather than engage with the stats, then no point discussing. Look past ICC rankings one second, because ICC rankings don’t tell the entire story. Not sure why you are obsessed with them.

 

[Mobashir]

Okay, lets settle this [MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]
Gautam Gambhir in SENA- avg 37
Azhar Ali in SENA avg- 35

Overall away avg
azhar 41.8
Gambhir 43.8

Now apart from the fact that he averages more in SENA he also has much more clutch performances including a daddy hundred to draw a match and therefore win a series in NZ also a draw series in SA, where he made 3 or four 50+ score i think.

So the stats in "Difficult Conditions" clearly reveal that Gambhir is atleast as good as Azhar if not better.
Also their overall averages are quite close and Gambhir was always an opener, gambhir 41.96 azhar 42.9

But still i will take an Azhar ali over Gambhir . In the same way i will take Pujara ahead of Azhar any day of the week, its about performances and not just stats.

That's fair to take Pujara over Azhar Ali.
The problem is about thinking Pujara is an ATG and Azhar Ali is a nobody compared to Pujara. A good end to Azhar career or a bad end to Pujara's one and it can change quickly.

 

[Varun]

That's fair to take Pujara over Azhar Ali.
The problem is about thinking Pujara is an ATG and Azhar Ali is a nobody compared to Pujara. A good end to Azhar career or a bad end to Pujara's one and it can change quickly.

Pujara is a poor man's Dravid.

But there is something to him where we have to calculate the sheer number of dot balls he plays which burns out the opposition bowlers. Don't think I've seen that in any other batsman, even Dravid.

 

[avihash]

Check difference in away average (zero) then look at home average (marginal difference). Now consider that Azhar Ali has almost never played at home.

If your best reply is to insult the collective intelligence rather than engage with the stats, then no point discussing. Look past ICC rankings one second, because ICC rankings don’t tell the entire story. Not sure why you are obsessed with them.

Since rankings mean nothing and only averages mean something irrespective of the bowling attacks, I suggest you put down test numbers of Imran and jadeja and do a detailed analysis.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Since rankings mean nothing and only averages mean something irrespective of the bowling attacks, I suggest you put down test numbers of Imran and jadeja and do a detailed analysis.

Azhar and Pujara belong to the same era and largely face the same attacks.

 

[avihash]

Azhar and Pujara belong to the same era and largely face the same attacks.

Yes it’s the same thing to face Jackson bird and pat Cummins. Sure. Having said that Pujara still averages more and has consistently maintained a ranking which is higher than Azhars peek.

Coming to Imran vs Jadeja how does it matter if it’s diff era. Since both of them are all rounders, if the bowling quality in an era increases, the batting averages naturally come down. It is perfectly fair to compare all rounders across generations. Unless the fear is that you will be completely exposed with the farcical method that is being used to compare Pujara to Azhar.

This is the worst form of coping mechanism, it only exposes the jealousy against an epic series win. And hence threads like puj vs Azhar, Babar and Kohli who is a better fielder.

 

[Mamoon]

I would take Pujara over Younis let alone Azhar.

 

[avihash]

I would take Pujara over Younis let alone Azhar.

I guess there’s a 15-20% diff in quality b/w Pujara and Ali. And same for Dravid vs Younis. But b/w Pujara and Younis I think Younis clinches it for now.

 

[MesonK]

BIG JOKE POST! Rahul level.. the guy averages 20s in ENG, NZ and SA and has less overseas 100s than Azhar. Azhar averages higher away. Pujara has a tailendar average where ball moves an millimeter.

Pujara is not better even Azhar will eventually average in over 50s in Pakistan same as Pujara in India. Azhar has a better away record where pujara averages in 20s in ENG, SA & NZ.

They both have problems in techniques. CP has massive issues with moving ball which is why he has a failure record in majority of swing seam conditions in venues away (ENG, SA and NZ).

AA is not saint either as a cricketer overall ... he is a butter fingered slip fielder and an overall unfit person who couldn't keep the captaincy even when he had no other competition. He could still target ending up with 45+ average with 8k + test runs.

Batting quality wise they are on par as the numbers state. I know how hard it is for the CP fans to digest that. But who cares, we are talking about facts here not opinions.

Lol at the defensive post.

Now you know why statistical comparison isn't everything.

Stat comparison (filtered) is everything when two players have following characteristics:

- they belong to same generation and played same brand of cricket (AA and CP debuted around same time and are still playing)
- they have same or similar numbers like in case of batting they have same sample size. (Very true for AA and CP both have almost equivalent numbers of games and have equivalent test runs)
- they faced same or similar set of oppositions bowlers (AA and CP have almost equal numbers of matches against same opposition sides, 1-2 changes in bowling units will always be there but overall attacks are same)
- they batted on same surfaces away from home (Very true for both)
- they do not belong to massively different sides like one plays in a 1-2 ranked team and other plays in a established minnow side ranked 8-9. (AA is at disadvantage here because he didnt play along Kohli, Dhoni etc)

filtered numbers are not defensive post. You were claiming that AA scored soft runs while CP is some Bradman who "grinds down" opposition and I showed that AA actually has higher 3rd innings avg and similar 4th innings avg which are the toughest parts of the test match where teams are either trying to set targets or chasing them. You have nothing to answer and you instead retreated to name calling. Keep going, stats will continue to expose the truth.

The flawed argument here is based on nitpicking of stats.

AA is on par or better than CP in following stats....

Avg in SENA+WI
Avg at Home
No. of SENA+WI 100s
Avg Year by Year
Avg at top order positions when team is both openers down
Avg in 3rd and 4th innings

This is called DETAILED ANALYSIS not nitpicking in normal world.

Continuing in same vein I suggested to check the diff b/w test stats of Imran and Jadeja.

IK vs Jadeja

- they belong to same generation and played same brand of cricket (No they Dont, one played in 70s-80s other played in 2010s)
- they have same or similar numbers like in case of batting they have same sample size (no they Dont)
- they faced same or similar set of oppositions bowlers. (NO THEY LITERALLY DONT lol)
- they batted on same surfaces (No they dont)
- they do not belong to massively different sides like one plays in a 1-2 ranked team and other plays in a minnow side ranked 8-9. (Not even applicable)

Thats as irrational as comparing modern day bowlers to Kapil Dev and then saying KD was an over rated trundler who avg 30 in tests and 27+ in ODI, had he been playing in modern era he would have ended with Umar Gul like stats.

You need to respect legends like IK and KD by not comparing them to modern day cricketers.

Instead of a ready number driven analysis what I received was a emotional outburst. So lol at your judgement and reasoning.

My reasoning is based on following aspects

Avg in SENA+WI
Avg at Home
No. of SENA+WI 100s
Avg Year by Year
Avg at top order positions when team is both openers down
Avg in 3rd and 4th innings
Quality of batting line in which the batted

Again ... show me the numbers which point out that there is difference between AA and CP

Okay, lets settle this [MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]
Gautam Gambhir in SENA- avg 37
Azhar Ali in SENA avg- 35

Overall away avg
azhar 41.8
Gambhir 43.8

Thats actually a good post. First You need to include WI because in generation of AA, CP ... WI fast bowling has resurged. Holder+Gab+Roach have combined ~500+ test wickets and have ~27-28 like test average. WI by no means is a weak or even average fast bowling unit at home anymore so they count in tough away conditions for South Asian batsmen along with SENA.

GG does has some overlap with AA or CPs generation but remember he played against bit different set of oppositions. Also he played in ATG Indian batting lineup where his opening partners and Ist and Second down batsmen were ... can you guess whom ? he cant even be compared to CP let alone AA.

For the sake of argument we can compare these three players though.

AA/CP/GG in SENA+WI (GG never played in against modern WI in WI ... to complete the set I am including his WI in India numbers)

Still AA easily takes this ...

vs AUS .... 52/47/22 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs WI .... 41/20/39 (Winner AA>GG>CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29/12 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs NZ .... 35/20/89 (Winner GG>AA>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31/60 (Winner GG>CP>AA)

for once try to think as a cricketing fan instead of being an Indian fan... Give credit to the player who deserves it. I do it often for some Indian players who are underestimated by even Indian fans like ... J Srinath.

But still i will take an Azhar ali over Gambhir . In the same way i will take Pujara ahead of Azhar any day of the week, its about performances and not just stats.

You can take wheoever you want over whoever you want. We are talking about numbers here among players who belong to same generation and played against same or similar oppositions on same surfaces.

Btw GG was very good player and could have been Ganguly's successor if he did not have issues.

Since rankings mean nothing and only averages mean something irrespective of the bowling attacks

Following matters

Avg in SENA+WI
Avg at Home
No. of SENA+WI 100s
Avg Year by Year
Avg at top order positions when team is both openers down
Avg in 3rd and 4th innings
Quality of the batting like (averages of batsmen above and below in a batting lineup)

when two players ...

- they belong to same generation and played same brand of cricket
- they have same or similar numbers like in case of batting they have same sample size
- they faced same or similar set of oppositions bowlers.
- they batted on same surfaces
- they do not belong to massively different sides like one plays in a 1-2 ranked team and other plays in a minnow side ranked 8-9.

It perfectly applied to AA and CP but not to Jadeja and IK and KD. Stop derailing the thread please

Pujara still averages more and has consistently maintained a ranking which is higher than Azhars peek.

CP averages more because he got to play thickest part of his career in India .. his home where he grew up playing on familiar surfaces, in front of home crowds, supported by domestic strategy of preparing helpful surfaces and what not.

AA never got that chance, he debuted among match fixers and corrupt mafia of PCB when his team could not play at home at all. He literally debuted in Pakistan, his home, at age of 35 and is gaining average number (currently ~50 I think) ... He might catch up with Pujara in home average if he gets full two years in Pakistan. Besides its not like they have some huge or massive gap between them in home average ... CP averages 59 in home, AA is averaging like 52 if we include UAE+Pakistan ... not a big deal when both are playing and AA is gaining form in pakistan.

Coming to Imran vs Jadeja how does it matter if it’s diff era. Since both of them are all rounders, if the bowling quality in an era increases, the batting averages naturally come down. It is perfectly fair to compare all rounders across generations.

No they cant be or we would have KD vs Umar Gul in ODIs ... KD vs akhtar ... KD fails as a trundler in both. Also lets talk about Babar Azam vs equivalent point careers of Dravid and Ganguly and then call both the Indian legends below Babar because they have weaker numbers. How about Ajmal over Kumble where Ajmal triumphs. This type of irrational troll game works both ways. Trust me I grew up being a fan and online poster for years so I know how these argument unfold and who ends up hurting who and how.

Like I said before, different generations players cant be compared because they played different type of cricket against different types of oppositions in different environment on different surfaces. AA and CP belong to same generation ... they played same type or era of cricket against similar oppositions in same environments on same and similar surfaces.

Btw you can probably compare Jadeja to Hafeez/Malik or Afridi even that would be a stretch but for sake of argument we can do that.

I would take Pujara over Younis let alone Azhar.

You can also take P Shaw over Javed Miandad because we live in a free world.

I guess there’s a 15-20% diff in quality b/w Pujara and Ali. And same for Dravid vs Younis. But b/w Pujara and Younis I think Younis clinches it for now.

Show me the numbers how you reach 15-20 % different in quality when AA has better or par outputs with CP in following aspects

Avg in SENA+WI
Avg at Home
No. of SENA+WI 100s
Avg Year by Year
Avg at top order positions when team is both openers down
Avg in 3rd and 4th innings

Or was that just an opinion?

 

[avihash]

They both have problems in techniques. CP has massive issues with moving ball which is why he has a failure record in majority of swing seam conditions in venues away (ENG, SA and NZ).

AA is not saint either as a cricketer overall ... he is a butter fingered slip fielder and an overall unfit person who couldn't keep the captaincy even when he had no other competition. He could still target ending up with 45+ average with 8k + test runs.

Batting quality wise they are on par as the numbers state. I know how hard it is for the CP fans to digest that. But who cares, we are talking about facts here not opinions.



Stat comparison (filtered) is everything when two players have following characteristics:

- they belong to same generation and played same brand of cricket (AA and CP debuted around same time and are still playing)
- they have same or similar numbers like in case of batting they have same sample size. (Very true for AA and CP both have almost equivalent numbers of games and have equivalent test runs)
- they faced same or similar set of oppositions bowlers (AA and CP have almost equal numbers of matches against same opposition sides, 1-2 changes in bowling units will always be there but overall attacks are same)
- they batted on same surfaces away from home (Very true for both)
- they do not belong to massively different sides like one plays in a 1-2 ranked team and other plays in a established minnow side ranked 8-9. (AA is at disadvantage here because he didnt play along Kohli, Dhoni etc)

filtered numbers are not defensive post. You were claiming that AA scored soft runs while CP is some Bradman who "grinds down" opposition and I showed that AA actually has higher 3rd innings avg and similar 4th innings avg which are the toughest parts of the test match where teams are either trying to set targets or chasing them. You have nothing to answer and you instead retreated to name calling. Keep going, stats will continue to expose the truth.



AA is on par or better than CP in following stats....

Avg in SENA+WI
Avg at Home
No. of SENA+WI 100s
Avg Year by Year
Avg at top order positions when team is both openers down
Avg in 3rd and 4th innings

This is called DETAILED ANALYSIS not nitpicking in normal world.



IK vs Jadeja

- they belong to same generation and played same brand of cricket (No they Dont, one played in 70s-80s other played in 2010s)
- they have same or similar numbers like in case of batting they have same sample size (no they Dont)
- they faced same or similar set of oppositions bowlers. (NO THEY LITERALLY DONT lol)
- they batted on same surfaces (No they dont)
- they do not belong to massively different sides like one plays in a 1-2 ranked team and other plays in a minnow side ranked 8-9. (Not even applicable)

Thats as irrational as comparing modern day bowlers to Kapil Dev and then saying KD was an over rated trundler who avg 30 in tests and 27+ in ODI, had he been playing in modern era he would have ended with Umar Gul like stats.

You need to respect legends like IK and KD by not comparing them to modern day cricketers.



My reasoning is based on following aspects

Avg in SENA+WI
Avg at Home
No. of SENA+WI 100s
Avg Year by Year
Avg at top order positions when team is both openers down
Avg in 3rd and 4th innings
Quality of batting line in which the batted

Again ... show me the numbers which point out that there is difference between AA and CP



Thats actually a good post. First You need to include WI because in generation of AA, CP ... WI fast bowling has resurged. Holder+Gab+Roach have combined ~500+ test wickets and have ~27-28 like test average. WI by no means is a weak or even average fast bowling unit at home anymore so they count in tough away conditions for South Asian batsmen along with SENA.

GG does has some overlap with AA or CPs generation but remember he played against bit different set of oppositions. Also he played in ATG Indian batting lineup where his opening partners and Ist and Second down batsmen were ... can you guess whom ? he cant even be compared to CP let alone AA.

For the sake of argument we can compare these three players though.

AA/CP/GG in SENA+WI (GG never played in against modern WI in WI ... to complete the set I am including his WI in India numbers)

Still AA easily takes this ...

vs AUS .... 52/47/22 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs WI .... 41/20/39 (Winner AA>GG>CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29/12 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs NZ .... 35/20/89 (Winner GG>AA>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31/60 (Winner GG>CP>AA)

for once try to think as a cricketing fan instead of being an Indian fan... Give credit to the player who deserves it. I do it often for some Indian players who are underestimated by even Indian fans like ... J Srinath.



You can take wheoever you want over whoever you want. We are talking about numbers here among players who belong to same generation and played against same or similar oppositions on same surfaces.

Btw GG was very good player and could have been Ganguly's successor if he did not have issues.



Following matters

Avg in SENA+WI
Avg at Home
No. of SENA+WI 100s
Avg Year by Year
Avg at top order positions when team is both openers down
Avg in 3rd and 4th innings
Quality of the batting like (averages of batsmen above and below in a batting lineup)

when two players ...

- they belong to same generation and played same brand of cricket
- they have same or similar numbers like in case of batting they have same sample size
- they faced same or similar set of oppositions bowlers.
- they batted on same surfaces
- they do not belong to massively different sides like one plays in a 1-2 ranked team and other plays in a minnow side ranked 8-9.

It perfectly applied to AA and CP but not to Jadeja and IK and KD. Stop derailing the thread please




CP averages more because he got to play thickest part of his career in India .. his home where he grew up playing on familiar surfaces, in front of home crowds, supported by domestic strategy of preparing helpful surfaces and what not.

AA never got that chance, he debuted among match fixers and corrupt mafia of PCB when his team could not play at home at all. He literally debuted in Pakistan, his home, at age of 35 and is gaining average number (currently ~50 I think) ... He might catch up with Pujara in home average if he gets full two years in Pakistan. Besides its not like they have some huge or massive gap between them in home average ... CP averages 59 in home, AA is averaging like 52 if we include UAE+Pakistan ... not a big deal when both are playing and AA is gaining form in pakistan.




No they cant be or we would have KD vs Umar Gul in ODIs ... KD vs akhtar ... KD fails as a trundler in both. Also lets talk about Babar Azam vs equivalent point careers of Dravid and Ganguly and then call both the Indian legends below Babar because they have weaker numbers. How about Ajmal over Kumble where Ajmal triumphs. This type of irrational troll game works both ways. Trust me I grew up being a fan and online poster for years so I know how these argument unfold and who ends up hurting who and how.

Like I said before, different generations players cant be compared because they played different type of cricket against different types of oppositions in different environment on different surfaces. AA and CP belong to same generation ... they played same type or era of cricket against similar oppositions in same environments on same and similar surfaces.

Btw you can probably compare Jadeja to Hafeez/Malik or Afridi even that would be a stretch but for sake of argument we can do that.



You can also take P Shaw over Javed Miandad because we live in a free world.



Show me the numbers how you reach 15-20 % different in quality when AA has better or par outputs with CP in following aspects

Avg in SENA+WI
Avg at Home
No. of SENA+WI 100s
Avg Year by Year
Avg at top order positions when team is both openers down
Avg in 3rd and 4th innings

Or was that just an opinion?

Most of these points have been addressed in previous posts. I think your method of debate is death by reiteration.

Numbers wise Pujara is superior ; although you try to contradict that by emotional appeals about home, away, crowd etc etc.

Numbers wise Jaddu is same as Imran; you can try to runaway but it doesn’t matter. I wouldn’t want to insult ik by calling him a trundler or some such.

If you read carefully, I clearly said it’s ok to compare all rounders and not batsmen and bowlers across gen.

Like I said, death by reiteration. Duh.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

I read what you posted about gg vs AA.

Gambhir never played in West Indies so you used his home numbers. Lol

There's not a single point in your argument that proves Azhar was better than Gambhir in difficult conditions, you just wrote an essay without putting any logic in it.

As you said, we should deal in numbers

SENA
GG-37
AA-35

OVERALL AWAY AVG
GG-43
AZHAR 41

These are plain numbers, i won't include windies because they aren't as difficult to face as other SENA nations, India just whitewashed them in their home.
I don't care about era, a difference of 5 6 years is not significant.
Gambhir was an opener and Sehwag was a failure in later part of his career away from home, so your point about better batting partner is again wrong.

 

[Mobashir]

A very good contribution by Azhar Ali in both innings to win the match against SA. I am not a fan, but his first innings fifty was very good an important.

 

[sshakir411]

A very good contribution by Azhar Ali in both innings to win the match against SA. I am not a fan, but his first innings fifty was very good an important.

Not good enough from someone who is touted as the best we have to offer. Threw it away after yet another soft half century. Time to remove him

 

[RajBan]

Azhar Ali is underrated as a batsman. He is pretty good as an anchor and every team needs such a player in their test batting line-up. Pujara has been exactly the same for India. Batting ability wise I don't see much difference, MesonKs stats prove it as well.

The only thing where Pujara might be ahead of Ali is facing difficult oppositions and conditions. For example England and NZ prepared extreme bowling friendly pitches in last two series to maximize their bowling potential and reduce any difference between the two teams. That Indian batting overall was equally woeful did not help either. Pakistan did perform significantly better than India as a batting unit during their tours to those two countries. This could be because either overall temperament wise they have a better test batting line-up or the pitches were not as treacherous as they were during India tours or a combination of both.

 

[KingKhan12]

2 innings of Azhar Ali that Pujara can't even dream of playing. One in tests vs Sri Lanka the last day chase where Azhar got a hundred. Pujara in a million years can never play such a innings and in ODIS the champions trophy final and some other innings too he played which Pujara can never play reason why Pujara doesn't get a look in ODIs. He needs 50 balls to get of the mark most of the times which is not acceptable in ODIs.

 

[Ab Fan]

Azhar Ali is underrated as a batsman. He is pretty good as an anchor and every team needs such a player in their test batting line-up. Pujara has been exactly the same for India. Batting ability wise I don't see much difference, MesonKs stats prove it as well.

The only thing where Pujara might be ahead of Ali is facing difficult oppositions and conditions. For example England and NZ prepared extreme bowling friendly pitches in last two series to maximize their bowling potential and reduce any difference between the two teams. That Indian batting overall was equally woeful did not help either. Pakistan did perform significantly better than India as a batting unit during their tours to those two countries. This could be because either overall temperament wise they have a better test batting line-up or the pitches were not as treacherous as they were during India tours or a combination of both.

Pujara is a much better player of spin, that is the difference ability wise. Both are resillient enough to tire the pacers, weather the storm and not throw their wickets but Pujara has played many great knocks on turning wickets in India and Sri Lanka.

Azhar is a very good batsman, about Rahane level but there is a reason why he averages 42-43 and not 47-48. If we only consider alien conditions, then by that logic, even the likes of Kane Williamson and Mahela Jayawardene will be proved to be at same level as Azhar Ali which is clearly absurd.

 

[Ab Fan]

2 innings of Azhar Ali that Pujara can't even dream of playing. One in tests vs Sri Lanka the last day chase where Azhar got a hundred. Pujara in a million years can never play such a innings and in ODIS the champions trophy final and some other innings too he played which Pujara can never play reason why Pujara doesn't get a look in ODIs. He needs 50 balls to get of the mark most of the times which is not acceptable in ODIs.

Pujara has already played a series defining knock in the decider of the test series in completely overcast conditions in Sri Lanka. This is the kind of knock that actually Azhar Ali can't play.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...lanka-vs-india-3rd-test-895777/full-scorecard

 

[Mobashir]

Not good enough from someone who is touted as the best we have to offer. Threw it away after yet another soft half century. Time to remove him

Lot of guys fail to understand that some fifties have more value than big hundreds, and it depends on the pitch and match condition.
It was surely not a pitch for big hundreds.

His first innings partnership with Fawad made sure we are in the match first and then put us in the driving seat.

 

[TNAmarkFromIndia]

Dunno about Azhar Ali but Pujara was a flop in India's last tours to England, New Zealand and South Africa. He's overrated for sure.

 

[Kaka4pope]

Azhar gets stick but fair play to him for sorting out his front foot in England, shame it wasn’t rectified prior - very solid top order bat.

 

[KingKhan12]

Pujara has already played a series defining knock in the decider of the test series in completely overcast conditions in Sri Lanka. This is the kind of knock that actually Azhar Ali can't play.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...lanka-vs-india-3rd-test-895777/full-scorecard

Azhar Ali has played some similar innings like these at strike rate of 50.
Innings I mentioned of Azhar Alis their is no way Pujara can even cream of playing such innings. Just like Indian winning on the last day chasing against Australia. Pujara played at a strike rate in the 20s. If India didn't pull of that win and drew instead getting close then he would been to blame. Azhar Ali similar situation in a must win gamer needing 302 to win from 59 overs last day got a hundred at a strike rate of 75 and took Pakistan to victory unlike Pujara has ever done in similar situations.

 

[Ab Fan]

Azhar Ali has played some similar innings like these at strike rate of 50.
Innings I mentioned of Azhar Alis their is no way Pujara can even cream of playing such innings. Just like Indian winning on the last day chasing against Australia. Pujara played at a strike rate in the 20s. If India didn't pull of that win and drew instead getting close then he would been to blame. Azhar Ali similar situation in a must win gamer needing 302 to win from 59 overs last day got a hundred at a strike rate of 75 and took Pakistan to victory unlike Pujara has ever done in similar situations.

Strike Rates are not a parameter to decide which test inning was great. That inning played by SL was in series decider and the conditions were overcast and seamer-friendly. All other batsman failed but Pujara literally carried the batting all the way and scored a series winning 151*. SL are an average team but that knock was outstanding.

 

[KingKhan12]

Strike Rates are not a parameter to decide which test inning was great. That inning played by SL was in series decider and the conditions were overcast and seamer-friendly. All other batsman failed but Pujara literally carried the batting all the way and scored a series winning 151*. SL are an average team but that knock was outstanding.

Azhar Ali carried the Pakistan team at times too. Got a double hundred not out in Australia even though Pak lost due to their useless bowling.
Azhar Ali innings was a series decider too and much more pressure chasing a record last day total.
And that kind of innings Pujara can never play. He had the opportunity against Australia but he played at a strike rate of around 20 for his half century. Heck I bet Australia be regretting getting Pujara out as the way he was batting game would been drawn, his dismissal helped India as next batsmans took the game to Australia like Pant and won it.

 

[MesonK]

Numbers wise Pujara is superior ; although you try to contradict that by emotional appeals about home, away, crowd etc etc.

Numbers wise AA > CP

Let me post again for others to see as I already know you refuse to acknowledge mathematical facts

AA> CP in years by year avg ... AA 7/12 times has better avg than Pujara

AA/CP in SENA+WI (AA has higher averages in 4/5 away venues)

vs AUS .... 52/47 (Winner AA)
vs WI .... 41/20 (Winner AA)
vs ENG .... 33/29 (Winner AA)
vs NZ .... 35/20 (Winner AA)
vs SA .... 17/31 (Winner CP)

AA/CP 100s in SENA+WI ... 6, 5 (Winner AA)

AA/CP Overall away Average 37/37 (Tie)

Please tell me how is CP superior to AA when AA has better stats

Numbers wise Jaddu is same as Imran; you can try to runaway but it doesn’t matter. I wouldn’t want to insult ik by calling him a trundler or some such.

Well I will call Kapil Dev a trundler because he was one .. with 30-ish average in tests. I cant believe someone with 30 like average can play for a test playing nation for literally 20 years. His numbers in ODI are equal/weaker to Abdur Razzaq. As a bowler he seems to be on levels of Umar Gul at best while a Afridi level batsman ...

I told you ... this game works both ways !

If you read carefully, I clearly said it’s ok to compare all rounders and not batsmen and bowlers across gen.

Its not. Conditions, surfaces, brand of cricket, oppositions, rankings ... everything changes with time so two players cant be compared when they have a single generation gap let alone generations ..

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

I read what you posted about gg vs AA.

Gambhir never played in West Indies so you used his home numbers. Lol

You dragged in GG in this discussion (for what reason?) not me ... If GG didnt get selected for WI tours or was booted off Indian squad then its not AA or my fault.

And btw GG in WI would have scored less than what he averaged in home against WI .. thats how batsmen usually score, higher in home against same oppositions.

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]



There's not a single point in your argument that proves Azhar was better than Gambhir in difficult conditions, you just wrote an essay without putting any logic in it.

what are you talking about ? GG is the weakest of the three ... AA has better average than CP in 4 away venues. GG cant even be compared to AA and CP for having generational gap and also his sample size is like half of what AA and CP will end their careers with. Again you made this irrational comparison not me, I just played along.

AA/CP/GG

vs AUS .... 52/47/22 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs WI .... 41/20/39 (Winner AA>GG>CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29/12 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs NZ .... 35/20/89 (Winner GG>AA>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31/60 (Winner GG>CP>AA)

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

i won't include windies because they aren't as difficult to face as other SENA nations, India just whitewashed them in their home.

WI has three pacers with almost 500 test wickets between them at mean average of 27-28.5 ... Holder, Gab, Roach are an amazing trio of fast bowlers. WI loses not because of them but because of their weak batting and lack of proper spinner option which is a must in test cricket. I know you are trying to exclude WI because of fear of weakening your argument

WI has amazing pace trio (very higher numbers of wickets and lower averages)
WI is an away alien environment for South Asian
WI surfaces are totally different then rest of the world

They count !

[MENTION=138806]MesonK[/MENTION]

Gambhir was an opener and Sehwag was a failure in later part of his career away from home, so your point about better batting partner is again wrong.

Yeah right... Sehwag averaged 56, 61 and 72 in 2008, 2009 and 2010 where him and GG played 22-24 tests togather as openers. Check your stats before claiming stuff!

Also even if Sehwag was averging 10, it means nothing, Indian batting in GG era was at ATG status so Gambhir was always supported on the other end by likes of Dhoni, Dravid, Yuvraj, Tendulkar, Laxman etc

AA was supported by whom ? Taufiq Umar and Salman Butt

Azhar is a very good batsman, about Rahane level but there is a reason why he averages 42-43 and not 47-48.

Only reason AA has an overall test average of 43 while ACP has 47 is because CP played thickest part of career in India while AA debuted in Pakistan at age of 35 few months ago. AA would have an average of 48-50 has he been playing in front of home crowds on PCB doctored pitches which he grew up playing on.

If we only consider alien conditions, then by that logic, even the likes of Kane Williamson and Mahela Jayawardene will be proved to be at same level as Azhar Ali which is clearly absurd.

Your logic is faulty

Jaya has an away average of almost 42 and his sample size is like twice the size of AA and CP both. They both will have to score like 6000 more test runs to be compared to Jaya. Jaya is just superior stats wise.

Same story with Kane ... an overall superior stat bearer.

Dunno about Azhar Ali but Pujara was a flop in India's last tours to England, New Zealand and South Africa. He's overrated for sure.

How dare you bring sanity to this thread.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Well I will call Kapil Dev a trundler because he was one .. with 30-ish average in tests. I cant believe someone with 30 like average can play for a test playing nation for literally 20 years.

He averaged 29-ish for 400+ wickets and was one of the greatest captains for his country. Your analysis is so poor.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Not to forget that Kapil Dev averaged 31 with the bat.

....but but how did he play for a test team?

Gibberish people write on this forum and then want to be taken seriously.

 

[MesonK]

He averaged 29-ish for 400+ wickets and was one of the greatest captains for his country. Your analysis is so poor.

Not to forget that Kapil Dev averaged 31 with the bat.

....but but how did he play for a test team?

Gibberish people write on this forum and then want to be taken seriously.

I was being sarcastic in response to Ik vs Jadeja claims

 

[BreadPakoda]

I was being sarcastic in response to Ik vs Jadeja claims

Ah, my bad.

 

[Ab Fan]

Numbers wise AA > CP

Let me post again for others to see as I already know you refuse to acknowledge mathematical facts

AA> CP in years by year avg ... AA 7/12 times has better avg than Pujara

AA/CP in SENA+WI (AA has higher averages in 4/5 away venues)

vs AUS .... 52/47 (Winner AA)
vs WI .... 41/20 (Winner AA)
vs ENG .... 33/29 (Winner AA)
vs NZ .... 35/20 (Winner AA)
vs SA .... 17/31 (Winner CP)

AA/CP 100s in SENA+WI ... 6, 5 (Winner AA)

AA/CP Overall away Average 37/37 (Tie)

Please tell me how is CP superior to AA when AA has better stats



Well I will call Kapil Dev a trundler because he was one .. with 30-ish average in tests. I cant believe someone with 30 like average can play for a test playing nation for literally 20 years. His numbers in ODI are equal/weaker to Abdur Razzaq. As a bowler he seems to be on levels of Umar Gul at best while a Afridi level batsman ...

I told you ... this game works both ways !



Its not. Conditions, surfaces, brand of cricket, oppositions, rankings ... everything changes with time so two players cant be compared when they have a single generation gap let alone generations ..




You dragged in GG in this discussion (for what reason?) not me ... If GG didnt get selected for WI tours or was booted off Indian squad then its not AA or my fault.

And btw GG in WI would have scored less than what he averaged in home against WI .. thats how batsmen usually score, higher in home against same oppositions.




what are you talking about ? GG is the weakest of the three ... AA has better average than CP in 4 away venues. GG cant even be compared to AA and CP for having generational gap and also his sample size is like half of what AA and CP will end their careers with. Again you made this irrational comparison not me, I just played along.

AA/CP/GG

vs AUS .... 52/47/22 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs WI .... 41/20/39 (Winner AA>GG>CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29/12 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs NZ .... 35/20/89 (Winner GG>AA>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31/60 (Winner GG>CP>AA)





WI has three pacers with almost 500 test wickets between them at mean average of 27-28.5 ... Holder, Gab, Roach are an amazing trio of fast bowlers. WI loses not because of them but because of their weak batting and lack of proper spinner option which is a must in test cricket. I know you are trying to exclude WI because of fear of weakening your argument

WI has amazing pace trio (very higher numbers of wickets and lower averages)
WI is an away alien environment for South Asian
WI surfaces are totally different then rest of the world

They count !



Yeah right... Sehwag averaged 56, 61 and 72 in 2008, 2009 and 2010 where him and GG played 22-24 tests togather as openers. Check your stats before claiming stuff!

Also even if Sehwag was averging 10, it means nothing, Indian batting in GG era was at ATG status so Gambhir was always supported on the other end by likes of Dhoni, Dravid, Yuvraj, Tendulkar, Laxman etc

AA was supported by whom ? Taufiq Umar and Salman Butt



Only reason AA has an overall test average of 43 while ACP has 47 is because CP played thickest part of career in India while AA debuted in Pakistan at age of 35 few months ago. AA would have an average of 48-50 has he been playing in front of home crowds on PCB doctored pitches which he grew up playing on.



Your logic is faulty

Jaya has an away average of almost 42 and his sample size is like twice the size of AA and CP both. They both will have to score like 6000 more test runs to be compared to Jaya. Jaya is just superior stats wise.

Same story with Kane ... an overall superior stat bearer.

Kane's record in SEIA since other countries are weak and shouldn't be counted.

Averages 34 in tests, lol at superior stats bearer. AA averages 32 in SENA, Chepu 35.

You are again wrong for Mahela.

He averages 31 in SENA.

So, basically,

In SENA,

Mahela averages 31 with around 1700 runs.

Pujara averages 35 with around 2000 runs.

Azhar averages 32 with around 1900 runs


Kane Williamson in SEIA ( New Zealand being replaced by India) averages 34 with around 1300 runs.

So, going by only alien conditions logic and not counting home matches, basically

1.Pujara
2. Kane
3. Azhar
4. Mahela

Proved.

 

[Ab Fan]

Forgot to add the link for Pujara, Azhar and Mahela. Here we go :-

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=batting

 

[Bigboii]

All-Time Test Bowling Rankings
1- Sydney Barnes
2- George Lohmann
3- Imran Khan
4- Muttiah Muralidaran

All-Time Test All-Rounder Rankings
IK no# 6
(his peers in that ranking are Garry Sobers, Ian Botham, Jacques Kallis

https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/player-rankings/test/all-time-bowling

some really idiotic a** trying to make stupid arguments that wouldn't even be discussed even in a parallel universe

 

[Bigboii]

All-Time Test Bowling Rankings
1- Sydney Barnes
2- George Lohmann
3- Imran Khan
4- Muttiah Muralidaran

All-Time Test All-Rounder Rankings
IK no# 6
(his peers in that ranking are Garry Sobers, Ian Botham, Jacques Kallis

https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/player-rankings/test/all-time-bowling

some really idiotic a** trying to make stupid arguments that wouldn't even be discussed even in a parallel universe

In Odi he comes in at 10 for
All-Time ODI All Rounder Rankings

https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/player-rankings/odi/all-time-all-rounder

In every All-time pak XI he is in the team

meanwhile just a couple of years ago Jadeja wasn't even making it into ICT
how mean how braindead one has to be to make an argument like that

 

[Heisenberg111]

Our test record in UAE was far superior to our test record in Pakistan. uae actually suited us more

Not really

Pakistan in UAE in tests

Matches Won 17
Matches Lost 10

W/L ratio of 1.7

Pakistan in tests in Pakistan since 2001

Matches Won 16
Matches Lost 5

W/L ratio of 3.2

So, its a myth that Pak's record is superior in UAE than Pakistan. And if you look at it historically Pakistan's overall W/L ratio at home is the best among all teams.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

You dragged in GG in this discussion (for what reason?) not me ... If GG didnt get selected for WI tours or was booted off Indian squad then its not AA or my fault.

And btw GG in WI would have scored less than what he averaged in home against WI .. thats how batsmen usually score, higher in home against same oppositions.




what are you talking about ? GG is the weakest of the three ... AA has better average than CP in 4 away venues. GG cant even be compared to AA and CP for having generational gap and also his sample size is like half of what AA and CP will end their careers with. Again you made this irrational comparison not me, I just played along.

AA/CP/GG

vs AUS .... 52/47/22 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs WI .... 41/20/39 (Winner AA>GG>CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29/12 (Winner AA>CP>GG)
vs NZ .... 35/20/89 (Winner GG>AA>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31/60 (Winner GG>CP>AA)





WI has three pacers with almost 500 test wickets between them at mean average of 27-28.5 ... Holder, Gab, Roach are an amazing trio of fast bowlers. WI loses not because of them but because of their weak batting and lack of proper spinner option which is a must in test cricket. I know you are trying to exclude WI because of fear of weakening your argument

WI has amazing pace trio (very higher numbers of wickets and lower averages)
WI is an away alien environment for South Asian
WI surfaces are totally different then rest of the world

They count !



Yeah right... Sehwag averaged 56, 61 and 72 in 2008, 2009 and 2010 where him and GG played 22-24 tests togather as openers. Check your stats before claiming stuff!

Also even if Sehwag was averging 10, it means nothing, Indian batting in GG era was at ATG status so Gambhir was always supported on the other end by likes of Dhoni, Dravid, Yuvraj, Tendulkar, Laxman etc

AA was supported by whom ? Taufiq Umar and Salman Butt

Again zero logic.

GG never played in Windies, its stupid to estimate his avg in windies based on home stats against them. This is the first time i have heard something like this.

Also i just checked Roach didn't play when pak toured wi last time. Here goes your 500 wkts argument.

Gg has better stats in SENA which means he was a better player in "difficult conditions".
Now combine this with the fact that he actually achieved no. 1 position in Icc test batsman ranking in 2009 when giants like Tendulkar, Dravid, sangakkara, jayawardene, Ponting, Kallis, Graeme Smith, Sehwag, Chanderpaul, Younis, de villiers, Amla were playing.

Also in the later part of his career Sehwag was poor away from home (read SENA) , while all those stats you pointed out are basically home /Asian conditions stats.

Azhar also had Younis, Misbah and Shafiq(a 40 avg batsman for most part of his career)
Its not like he was playing along with abid ali and company. Also include the fact that GG was always an opener while Azhar also played at no. 3.

 

[avihash]

So basically no number driven analysis yet for Jadeja vs Imran. Only emotional outburst out of hurt.

Jadeja is sardonically called “sir” in India. Well that makes it sir Imran now along with him. I would be happy to change my mind if there was any evidence whatsoever of him being better than Jadd. Frankly they are more closer in numbers than CP and AA.

Now, wether sir Imran was a trundler or got away with dubious reverse swing is something to be discussed once numbers are out.

 

[Hitman]

I hate watching both of them play, and I believe that both are boring to the core. Having said that, I still believe Pujara does a better job than Azar.

 

[Mamoon]

Gambhir was a world class, all-format batsman from 2008-2011. Incredible player during his peak, and quite solid outside his peak.

Would take him over the overrated Saeed Anwar let alone Azhar Ali.

 

[Mobashir]

Gambhir was a world class, all-format batsman from 2008-2011. Incredible player during his peak, and quite solid outside his peak.

Would take him over the overrated Saeed Anwar let alone Azhar Ali.

Would you take Venkatesh Prasad over Akhtar and Ramesh Powar over Afridi?

 

[Mamoon]

Would you take Venkatesh Prasad over Akhtar and Ramesh Powar over Afridi?

Of course not, but very few Pakistani batsmen are better than their Indian counterparts. We need to realize that Pakistani batting standards are a joke, and even an average batsman is a legend for our standards.

Saeed Anwar was a tail-ender against Australia, South Africa and New Zealand in ODI cricket especially in their conditions, but for Pakistan, he is still our greatest ODI opener ever because everyone else is so mediocre.

Someone like Dhawan would be considered a legend in Pakistan but he is not considered anywhere near that league in India.

He cannot even get into their Test team in spite of averaging 40+, but we are dreaming of having a 40+ averaging Test opener.

There is no comparison between Indian batting and Pakistani batting. They are miles ahead of us.

Unfortunately for us, they are now ahead of us in bowling as well, at least in the contemporary era.

Pakistan cricket is a joke compared to Indian cricket.

 

[avihash]

In Odi he comes in at 10 for
All-Time ODI All Rounder Rankings

https://www.icc-cricket.com/rankings/mens/player-rankings/odi/all-time-all-rounder

In every All-time pak XI he is in the team

meanwhile just a couple of years ago Jadeja wasn't even making it into ICT
how mean how braindead one has to be to make an argument like that

Could you use your fertile brain to share their test numbers ? Or will you just keep demonstrating how ****hurt you are by quoting random arguments and avoiding career numbers at all cost ?

 

[avihash]

Would you take Venkatesh Prasad over Akhtar and Ramesh Powar over Afridi?

One would take jadeja over both of Akhtar and Afridi. And Jadeja doesn’t even make India team most of the time.

 

[MesonK]

Kane's record in SEIA since other countries are weak and shouldn't be counted.

Averages 34 in tests, lol at superior stats bearer. AA averages 32 in SENA, Chepu 35.

This is their actual record.

AA/CP in SENA+WI
vs AUS .... 52/47 (Winner AA)
vs WI .... 41/20 (Winner AA)
vs ENG .... 33/29 (Winner AA)
vs NZ .... 35/20 (Winner AA)
vs SA .... 17/31 (Winner CP)

AA/CP 100s in SENA+WI
6, 5 (Winner AA)

AA/CP Overall away Average
37/37 (Tie)

So who is better ? AA is almost dominating CP in some venues while overall on par.

Kane's record in SEIA since other countries are weak and shouldn't be counted.

Averages 34 in tests, lol at superior stats bearer. AA averages 32 in SENA, Chepu 35.

Jaya is Indeed a superior stat bearer. What are you talking about ? Stop claiming stuff.

Jaya's away average is almost 42 while away averages for AA/CP are 37 each.
Jayas's sample size is almost twice than AA/CP. We will see but neither man will have the longivity of jaya as it seems.
Jaya also belongs to much older generation than AA/CP.
His comparison to either AA/CP is invalid to the core.

But if you insist... prepare to be proven wrong. AA dwarves both CP and MJ in away SENA+WI except for SAfrica.

AA/CP/MJ in SENA+WI

vs AUS .... 52/47/31 (AA>CP>MJ)
vs WI .... 41/20/41 (AA=MJ > CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29/36 (MJ>AA>CP)
vs NZ .... 35/20/28 (AA>MJ>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31/28 (CP>MJ>AA)

CP dominates nowhere outside India the way AA does. CP is a AA level batsman with HTB traits at best.

Pujara averages 35 with around 2000 runs.

Azhar averages 32 with around 1900 runs


Kane Williamson in SEIA ( New Zealand being replaced by India) averages 34 with around 1300 runs.

So, going by only alien conditions logic and not counting home matches, basically

1.Pujara
2. Kane
3. Azhar
4. Mahela

Proved.

I know you are discounting WI on purpose even when WI at home is lead by three fast bowlers with 27-28 test average and ~500 test wickets in between them ... Include WI and Pujara falls to the ground. LOL

This shows the true story

AA/CP SENA+WI

vs AUS .... 52/47 (AA>CP)
vs WI .... 41/20 (AA>CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29(AA>CP)
vs NZ .... 35/20 (AA>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31 (CP>AA)

4/5 away SENA+WI venues ... AA dominates CP, AA has more 100s then CP. They both have same away averages as well. So much for Javed Miandad+Dravid reborn CP.

1.Pujara
2. Kane
3. Azhar
4. Mahela

Proved.

1) Kane
2) AA/CP

MJ comparison is just stupid.

AA>CP in SENA+WI

proved above.

Again zero logic.

GG never played in Windies, its stupid to estimate his avg in windies based on home stats against them. This is the first time i have heard something like this.

Stupid post.

Explain your obsession with GG comparison with AA and CP ? He has half the sample size, played in almost a different generation than both AA/CP. He was an opener while AA and CP are middle order batsmen. AA does open because Pakistani openers get out early. This is an absurd comparison. AA/CP will end their test careers with ~8000 test runs while GG ended at half the figure, played different sets of bowlers, in different batting lines.

If your intentions are to troll around then be my guest but GG comparison to AA/CP is just derailing of the thread. He could have been superior to both AA/CP or lower than both of them, we will never know.

Also in the later part of his career Sehwag was poor away from home (read SENA) , while all those stats you pointed out are basically home /Asian conditions stats.

You are totally wrong. Sehwag averaged 56, 61 and 72 in 2008, 2009 and 2010 overall not just in "Asian conditions" Him and GG played 22-24 tests as openers in that era. GG opened with a great of the game.

Azhar also had Younis, Misbah and Shafiq(a 40 avg batsman for most part of his career)
Its not like he was playing along with abid ali and company. Also include the fact that GG was always an opener while Azhar also played at no. 3.

Are you seriously going to compare batting line made of Shan Masood, Fakhar Zaman, Shafiq the Bradman, Sarfaraz, Taufiq Umars with Tendulkar, Dhoni, Sehwag, Yuvraj, Dravid and Laxman ? ... I mean literally.

So basically no number driven analysis yet for Jadeja vs Imran.

Here is a number driven analysis for you.

Kapil Dev/Abdur "The Razzler" Razzaq

Batting Avg

23/30 lol

100s/50s

1(100s)14(50s) / 3(100s)23(50s)

Bowling

27/31

Strike Rate

44/40

They both have almost equivalent sample size too btw so its valid.

Seems like KD was after all equivalent to the Razzler. So much for his GOAT status in India while we dont even count Razzler as a proper player in Pakistan.

(works both ways ...told ya)

Gambhir was a world class, all-format batsman from 2008-2011. Incredible player during his peak, and quite solid outside his peak.

.

Agreed

Would take him over the overrated Saeed Anwar let alone Azhar Ali.

Prithivi Shaw over Miandad too ?
Dinda over Akhtar as well ?

One would take jadeja over both of Akhtar and Afridi. And Jadeja doesn’t even make India team most of the time.

The razzler can be taken over KD any day.

In tests KD was a Junaid Khan level bowler. Same averages.

 

[MesonK]

So far in this thread

Stats: AA averages more in SENA+WI than CP, AA has more SENA+WI 100s than CP, AA has ditto away average as CP, AA averages higher year by year than CP

Indian response: lets talk about Gambhir, Jayawardene, Imran Khan, Kapil Dev, Sehwag, Hobbs etc etc

 

[Ab Fan]

This is their actual record.

AA/CP in SENA+WI
vs AUS .... 52/47 (Winner AA)
vs WI .... 41/20 (Winner AA)
vs ENG .... 33/29 (Winner AA)
vs NZ .... 35/20 (Winner AA)
vs SA .... 17/31 (Winner CP)

AA/CP 100s in SENA+WI
6, 5 (Winner AA)

AA/CP Overall away Average
37/37 (Tie)

So who is better ? AA is almost dominating CP in some venues while overall on par.




Jaya is Indeed a superior stat bearer. What are you talking about ? Stop claiming stuff.

Jaya's away average is almost 42 while away averages for AA/CP are 37 each.
Jayas's sample size is almost twice than AA/CP. We will see but neither man will have the longivity of jaya as it seems.
Jaya also belongs to much older generation than AA/CP.
His comparison to either AA/CP is invalid to the core.

But if you insist... prepare to be proven wrong. AA dwarves both CP and MJ in away SENA+WI except for SAfrica.

AA/CP/MJ in SENA+WI

vs AUS .... 52/47/31 (AA>CP>MJ)
vs WI .... 41/20/41 (AA=MJ > CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29/36 (MJ>AA>CP)
vs NZ .... 35/20/28 (AA>MJ>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31/28 (CP>MJ>AA)

CP dominates nowhere outside India the way AA does. CP is a AA level batsman with HTB traits at best.




I know you are discounting WI on purpose even when WI at home is lead by three fast bowlers with 27-28 test average and ~500 test wickets in between them ... Include WI and Pujara falls to the ground. LOL

This shows the true story

AA/CP SENA+WI

vs AUS .... 52/47 (AA>CP)
vs WI .... 41/20 (AA>CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29(AA>CP)
vs NZ .... 35/20 (AA>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31 (CP>AA)

4/5 away SENA+WI venues ... AA dominates CP, AA has more 100s then CP. They both have same away averages as well. So much for Javed Miandad+Dravid reborn CP.



1) Kane
2) AA/CP

MJ comparison is just stupid.

AA>CP in SENA+WI

proved above.

.

You are not making sense at all. Windies are basically minnow level team and runs against them do not hold higher value than say, runs in Sri Lanka or even home runs against SENA or Sri Lanka. We already have given you number of examples to prove the fallacy of your logic but you are basically happy to continue with your hypocrisy.

If you have any response to my below statement, sure you can continue or else no point taking this absurd and ridiculous logic further.

In SENA,

Mahela averages 31 with around 1700 runs.

Pujara averages 35 with around 2000 runs.

Azhar averages 32 with around 1900 runs


Kane Williamson in SEIA ( New Zealand being replaced by India) averages 34 with around 1300 runs.

All these stats are facts and no opinions. Already gave you link above too. And if you are counting Windies, sure count Sri Lanka for Williamson, Pujara and Azhar too. Sri Lanka have been far superior team than Windies and they had Herath to make life tough for SENA teams in Sri Lanka.

 

[avihash]

This is their actual record.

AA/CP in SENA+WI
vs AUS .... 52/47 (Winner AA)
vs WI .... 41/20 (Winner AA)
vs ENG .... 33/29 (Winner AA)
vs NZ .... 35/20 (Winner AA)
vs SA .... 17/31 (Winner CP)

AA/CP 100s in SENA+WI
6, 5 (Winner AA)

AA/CP Overall away Average
37/37 (Tie)

So who is better ? AA is almost dominating CP in some venues while overall on par.




Jaya is Indeed a superior stat bearer. What are you talking about ? Stop claiming stuff.

Jaya's away average is almost 42 while away averages for AA/CP are 37 each.
Jayas's sample size is almost twice than AA/CP. We will see but neither man will have the longivity of jaya as it seems.
Jaya also belongs to much older generation than AA/CP.
His comparison to either AA/CP is invalid to the core.

But if you insist... prepare to be proven wrong. AA dwarves both CP and MJ in away SENA+WI except for SAfrica.

AA/CP/MJ in SENA+WI

vs AUS .... 52/47/31 (AA>CP>MJ)
vs WI .... 41/20/41 (AA=MJ > CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29/36 (MJ>AA>CP)
vs NZ .... 35/20/28 (AA>MJ>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31/28 (CP>MJ>AA)

CP dominates nowhere outside India the way AA does. CP is a AA level batsman with HTB traits at best.




I know you are discounting WI on purpose even when WI at home is lead by three fast bowlers with 27-28 test average and ~500 test wickets in between them ... Include WI and Pujara falls to the ground. LOL

This shows the true story

AA/CP SENA+WI

vs AUS .... 52/47 (AA>CP)
vs WI .... 41/20 (AA>CP)
vs ENG .... 33/29(AA>CP)
vs NZ .... 35/20 (AA>CP)
vs SA .... 17/31 (CP>AA)

4/5 away SENA+WI venues ... AA dominates CP, AA has more 100s then CP. They both have same away averages as well. So much for Javed Miandad+Dravid reborn CP.



1) Kane
2) AA/CP

MJ comparison is just stupid.

AA>CP in SENA+WI

proved above.



Stupid post.

Explain your obsession with GG comparison with AA and CP ? He has half the sample size, played in almost a different generation than both AA/CP. He was an opener while AA and CP are middle order batsmen. AA does open because Pakistani openers get out early. This is an absurd comparison. AA/CP will end their test careers with ~8000 test runs while GG ended at half the figure, played different sets of bowlers, in different batting lines.

If your intentions are to troll around then be my guest but GG comparison to AA/CP is just derailing of the thread. He could have been superior to both AA/CP or lower than both of them, we will never know.



You are totally wrong. Sehwag averaged 56, 61 and 72 in 2008, 2009 and 2010 overall not just in "Asian conditions" Him and GG played 22-24 tests as openers in that era. GG opened with a great of the game.



Are you seriously going to compare batting line made of Shan Masood, Fakhar Zaman, Shafiq the Bradman, Sarfaraz, Taufiq Umars with Tendulkar, Dhoni, Sehwag, Yuvraj, Dravid and Laxman ? ... I mean literally.



Here is a number driven analysis for you.

Kapil Dev/Abdur "The Razzler" Razzaq

Batting Avg

23/30 lol

100s/50s

1(100s)14(50s) / 3(100s)23(50s)

Bowling

27/31

Strike Rate

44/40

They both have almost equivalent sample size too btw so its valid.

Seems like KD was after all equivalent to the Razzler. So much for his GOAT status in India while we dont even count Razzler as a proper player in Pakistan.

(works both ways ...told ya)




Agreed



Prithivi Shaw over Miandad too ?
Dinda over Akhtar as well ?




The razzler can be taken over KD any day.

In tests KD was a Junaid Khan level bowler. Same averages.

Hahah. . Such a nonsensical post really. But that’s what I have come to expect from you. Where are the numbers for the two sirs jadeja and Imran ?

For Kapil vs razzler, below are the test stats, (Bat avg/ bow avg) kd: 31/29 , razzler ( 28/36).Kapil has been comfortably better. And there is a small matter of 85 test matches b/w them. Which is incidentally equivalent to the entire rest career of Imran. When it comes to jadeja vs Imran there test careers will be almost the same length, so it’s as fair a comparison as it can get.

Of course, razzler will trump Kapil if it comes to his original profession before taking up cricket I.e repair punctured tyres..

But then the comparison I asked for was jaddu vs Imran and you have still been hiding from it for obvious reasons.

 

[sshakir411]

Azhar Ali carried the Pakistan team at times too. Got a double hundred not out in Australia even though Pak lost due to their useless bowling.
Azhar Ali innings was a series decider too and much more pressure chasing a record last day total.
And that kind of innings Pujara can never play. He had the opportunity against Australia but he played at a strike rate of around 20 for his half century. Heck I bet Australia be regretting getting Pujara out as the way he was batting game would been drawn, his dismissal helped India as next batsmans took the game to Australia like Pant and won it.

That double hundred was one of the most useless innings I have ever seen. The guy batted for over 2 days and couldn’t even draw the game. Azhar is king of soft innings and has failed to deliver even after getting the most preferential treatment in the last 8+ years. He will forever be a a mediocre player who the powers tried to turn in to a legend.

 

[Hitman]

Gambhir was a world class, all-format batsman from 2008-2011. Incredible player during his peak, and quite solid outside his peak.

Would take him over the overrated Saeed Anwar let alone Azhar Ali.

Agreed with your first part. Gambhir has a Test average of 56 odd at his peak.