Babar Azam can be a superstar

[Darkrai]

It's difficult to compare players from different eras.

ICC player ratings might be a better way to judge than just looking at stats since their ratings consider the quality of opposition too.

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

Best batsman since Javed for Pak. Hope he continues this form and is not pulled into any sort of scandals/ controversies ....

 

[Thunderbolt14]

I have to disappoint you here bro.

Since you haven't seen Javed, means you haven't seen almost anything of PAK cricket - it ended with 1999 WC. If I make a PAK all-time ODI XI with 5 batsmen (Imran & Razzak will bat at 6 & 7, so 5 batsmen), Babar actually won't make my XI still. I don't find him still to replace Mazid, Saeed, Zaheer, Javed and Inzi in that line-up .... if fact won't be reserve over MoYo.

Don't get me wrong - he is head & shoulders above his compatriots, but he is extremely lucky to play for a PAK team that's basically been relegated to second division of International cricket, hence he is scoring lots of soft runs - either against lower ranked teams or compromised XI. Comparison of average & strike rate will be a bit mis-leading here as he is playing in 300+ era, but if I go by the contribution - he is way behind any of these five/six.

I think, I have seen most of Babar's ODI innings - so far only one innings which had some significance in PAK's win in a competitive game was the WC knock against NZ, where Haris played better than him - came at four, so he didn't have the time to hit the hundred. Babar is still a very good accumulator who puts up lots of runs, but if you compare what those 5/6 did in terms of contribution, it's not even a contest yet. In fact, Salim Malik has played more meaningful innings than Babar - couple of mind blowing fifties at Eden, a brilliant chase at Toronto on day 3 wicket against Kumble (chasing 263 I guess), some where in between 1993-94 couple of innings against SAF & AUS....

Starting one by one - Mazid played very few games .... still one of the best early days ODI innings was played by him in 1974 against ENG, chasing like 264... Zaheer matched Viv's stats including facing Viv's bowlers; Javed scored 91 in last 12 overs with AQadir, Wasim & Tauseef, in 1986 ... then hit a last ball six; and I believe you have seen Inzi's 60 in WC or his hundred at Ahmedabad, Karachi.

One particular difference is that PAK cricket sunk so much in last 10-12 years that there is a generation gap between 2007-8 (MoYo's decline) to Babar's raise - in that period ODI cricket has moved from 220 per to 320 per state hence numbers are mind blowing. Few months back, I almost lost my speech when someone posted that Imam-Fakhar-Babar are PAK's historically best 1-2-3 ..... but then, statistically true indeed; in fact they are better than Hynes-Grineedge-Viv; Tendulkar-Ganguly-Sehwag or Gilchrist-Mark/Hayden-Ponting..... statistically.

So, not going by stats, in last 3-4 years, I had memories of Babar failing every time PAK needed him to score or finish - from the Asia Cup KO against BD to WC 2019, CT 2017 or any serious series/game that PAK has played - NZ, SAF, ENG, AUS ..... 5 games against IND .... the last one been ZIM - no bro, no dead rubbers these days - that one loss against ZIM might cost PAK big time, it was worth 10 points. Javed's numbers are relatively poor because he played for a PAK team against whom every team including Lloyd/Viv's WIN will send their best XI - still he was unreal consistent, sometimes between 1987 to 1988, he scored 8 or 9 consecutive 50s when 200 was almost match winning - forward those games 30 years, Javed would have 6-7 hundreds from those innings only. One thing you are not considering that, when PAK players used to get on to field during those 5's time, they were playing to win every game, obviously it won't happen, but no one, not even Ponting's Australia would take it easy - they did lose a home series 2-1. Current PAK team plays to compete with big boys... the pressure and context is totally different. At one point, AUS-PAK ODI H2H was 16-16, and most of those games were played in AUS, with their umpires .... I guess you can understand what I have done here.

What's Babar missing - I give one example - 1997, Independence Cup in India, PAK lost WW to Counties ... then lost to NZ in first game - so to make the finals, first they had to beat world champs SRL, then host India. It poised beautifully when IND-PAK last game became SF .... that guy Saeed Anwar smashed 194 in that game. Few months later, in Kenya - PAK lost to SAF twice ... so to make the Finals, they had to win over World Champs SRL by 89 runs margin and Rantunga put PAK in so that basically they can chase 89 less to make the final .... that guy Afridi scored 102 in 38 balls, Saeed 100+ ... and PAK 370+, winning by 91 to make the Final. Babar Azam missed Mustafiz's straight one chasing 240 against a BD attack with 2 bowlers short and Shakib injured.........

The stakes are different these days - you have seen Babar scoring 125 against ZIM without Jarvis & Sibanda ... still losing the game .... I have seen PAK 10-2 against McGrath & Fleming in a gloomy Leeds morning in WC effectively QF game, still winning for Inzi's batting; I have seen in mid night PAK chasing 260 in 45 overs against Marshall, Bishop, Ambrose & Walsh - that guy Inzi lofting Ambrose to extra cover crowd .... you saw Afghans stressing PAK to last ball on their adopted home ... you have seen PAK losing 12 out of 13 games against ENG, NZ, IND & BD (Other one washed out) - I have seen PAK facing elimination in Neheru Cup, then winning 4 at a stress - Australia at Mumbai, India at Eden, ENG at Nugpur (That was an epic chase, try to figure out the score card) ..... and then 278 against WIN at Eden in the finals .... and irony is - that target that time was also 279, against Marshall of 1989, Ambrose, Walsh & Benjamin .....

I hope it won't hurt your feelings - your generation have seen Babar among Shan Masood, Imam Ul Haq, Abid Ali, Iftekhar and Harish Sohail .... my generation have seen Mazid, Zaheer, Javed, Saeed, Inzi among themselves and tugging horns with Richards, Greg, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Jones, Crowe, Gower, Lloyd .... my assessments and expectations will be different for a reason.

Amazing post bhai, very beautifully described. Wish I could have seen those innings live...

 

[MMHS]

Amazing post bhai, very beautifully described. Wish I could have seen those innings live...

Try, WC Semifinal, WIN-PAK, 1979 - one of ODI's greatest ever partnerships, even today was played that day.

You live in USA these days - if you gossip their sports you'll notice they hardly give a damn about numbers - every regular point guard in NBA will end-up somewhere with 20 points and 10 assist per game; most centres with 20 pints & 10 rebounds, most Forwards with 20 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists and 1 block .... what it matters for them is rings, play-offs ... how many match winning budger beaters you have converted, how many steals you have made to win the last position, how many boards you have hustled on time-out positions .... numbers and averages doesn't justify MJ, Ervin Johnson, Duncan, Labron or Bill Russell.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Try, WC Semifinal, WIN-PAK, 1979 - one of ODI's greatest ever partnerships, even today was played that day.

You live in USA these days - if you gossip their sports you'll notice they hardly give a damn about numbers - every regular point guard in NBA will end-up somewhere with 20 points and 10 assist per game; most centres with 20 pints & 10 rebounds, most Forwards with 20 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists and 1 block .... what it matters for them is rings, play-offs ... how many match winning budger beaters you have converted, how many steals you have made to win the last position, how many boards you have hustled on time-out positions .... numbers and averages doesn't justify MJ, Ervin Johnson, Duncan, Labron or Bill Russell.

I have always wondered about that collapse at the Oval, a magnificent stand between Majid and Zaheer and then a heartbreaking collapse. Some of the shots played by Zaheer especially I watched on YouTube including sweeping the likes of Roberts and Garner. One shot he eased delicately down legside for six.

Miandad was given first ball duck, else maybe that game could have gone to the wire. But I also wonder about Zaheer - he got out to a fairly innocuous ball sliding down legside, edging behind to the keeper and almost criminal for a set batsman on 93.

 

[Hitman]

Best batsman since Javed for Pak. Hope he continues this form and is not pulled into any sort of scandals/ controversies ....

He has the potential to end up being better than Javed who averaged a laughable 29 against the best team of his time.

 

[Mesozoic]

Babar is also better than Kohli in some departments. As I already pointed out, you can't expect Kohli to come in the first over and hit those 2 boundaries against Shaheen, hit those that many boundaries against Starc/Cummins as Babar did in the world cup. Babar is much more at ease against good bowlers.

Hitting a couple of boundaries? Seriously?

So Kohli has 70 int'l hundreds without being at ease against good bowlers ?
The guy dominated peak Johnson, Harris, Starc in Australia... Rabada, Morkel, Philander in SAF and Jimmy, Broad in England. But Babar is better because he hit those cute little 40s....

This is the most bizarre thing I've ever heard here on PP no offense.

 

[zain7077]

He's gonna be the best all format batsman of the 2020's In Sha Allah, is there any competitor in sight?

 

[The lone Ranger]

He is a decent player and has to improve his power game otherwise will end up playing with the same strike rate in all three formats of the game.

Hope he continues this performance against top teams aswell, been tired of watching him dominant Zimbabwe and Bangladesh.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Babar has played only a few impact innings but still he is a much better accumulator than anyone Pakistan ever had.
Instead of comparing stats with former players we can check where he stands among his contemporaries.
Babar is at no. 3 in odis behind Kohli and maybe Root.
Majid khan being better than Babar is an absolute joke, was Majid ever considered amongst the top 3 Odi batsman of his time. Same goes for

Mohd Yousuf, he was good but nowhere near lara, sachin, punter, gilchrist etc.

Same goes for Inzi. He had all the talent in the world but didn't have the same hunger Babar has and so he was never amongst the class of lara, sachin, punter.
Zaheer Abbas and Miandad are the only ones who can compete with Azam. But that str rate of 67 in odis doesn't really give much confidence.
At this point i"ll say
Abbas>Azam>Miandad.

 

[Mobashir]

Am not saying he isnt all am saying is only one thing that he lacks is win matches and daddy hundreds

You can't compare "win matches". India is a much stronger team than Pakistan. It's much harder to perform in losses than in wins. If anything that should be in Babar's favor.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

He's gonna be the best all format batsman of the 2020's In Sha Allah, is there any competitor in sight?

KLR has 8 more years in him, Shaw and Gill can both put their hats in the ring if they emerge quickly, Labuschagne can potentially become a serious Test and ODI challenger, and in limited overs Tom Banton and Haider Ali have every chance to emerge as impact players (with lower averages and higher strike rates). And of course there’s Quinton de Kock too.

Let’s see where this decade takes us!

 

[KingKhan12]

I have to disappoint you here bro.

Since you haven't seen Javed, means you haven't seen almost anything of PAK cricket - it ended with 1999 WC. If I make a PAK all-time ODI XI with 5 batsmen (Imran & Razzak will bat at 6 & 7, so 5 batsmen), Babar actually won't make my XI still. I don't find him still to replace Mazid, Saeed, Zaheer, Javed and Inzi in that line-up .... if fact won't be reserve over MoYo.

Don't get me wrong - he is head & shoulders above his compatriots, but he is extremely lucky to play for a PAK team that's basically been relegated to second division of International cricket, hence he is scoring lots of soft runs - either against lower ranked teams or compromised XI. Comparison of average & strike rate will be a bit mis-leading here as he is playing in 300+ era, but if I go by the contribution - he is way behind any of these five/six.

I think, I have seen most of Babar's ODI innings - so far only one innings which had some significance in PAK's win in a competitive game was the WC knock against NZ, where Haris played better than him - came at four, so he didn't have the time to hit the hundred. Babar is still a very good accumulator who puts up lots of runs, but if you compare what those 5/6 did in terms of contribution, it's not even a contest yet. In fact, Salim Malik has played more meaningful innings than Babar - couple of mind blowing fifties at Eden, a brilliant chase at Toronto on day 3 wicket against Kumble (chasing 263 I guess), some where in between 1993-94 couple of innings against SAF & AUS....

Starting one by one - Mazid played very few games .... still one of the best early days ODI innings was played by him in 1974 against ENG, chasing like 264... Zaheer matched Viv's stats including facing Viv's bowlers; Javed scored 91 in last 12 overs with AQadir, Wasim & Tauseef, in 1986 ... then hit a last ball six; and I believe you have seen Inzi's 60 in WC or his hundred at Ahmedabad, Karachi.

One particular difference is that PAK cricket sunk so much in last 10-12 years that there is a generation gap between 2007-8 (MoYo's decline) to Babar's raise - in that period ODI cricket has moved from 220 per to 320 per state hence numbers are mind blowing. Few months back, I almost lost my speech when someone posted that Imam-Fakhar-Babar are PAK's historically best 1-2-3 ..... but then, statistically true indeed; in fact they are better than Hynes-Grineedge-Viv; Tendulkar-Ganguly-Sehwag or Gilchrist-Mark/Hayden-Ponting..... statistically.

So, not going by stats, in last 3-4 years, I had memories of Babar failing every time PAK needed him to score or finish - from the Asia Cup KO against BD to WC 2019, CT 2017 or any serious series/game that PAK has played - NZ, SAF, ENG, AUS ..... 5 games against IND .... the last one been ZIM - no bro, no dead rubbers these days - that one loss against ZIM might cost PAK big time, it was worth 10 points. Javed's numbers are relatively poor because he played for a PAK team against whom every team including Lloyd/Viv's WIN will send their best XI - still he was unreal consistent, sometimes between 1987 to 1988, he scored 8 or 9 consecutive 50s when 200 was almost match winning - forward those games 30 years, Javed would have 6-7 hundreds from those innings only. One thing you are not considering that, when PAK players used to get on to field during those 5's time, they were playing to win every game, obviously it won't happen, but no one, not even Ponting's Australia would take it easy - they did lose a home series 2-1. Current PAK team plays to compete with big boys... the pressure and context is totally different. At one point, AUS-PAK ODI H2H was 16-16, and most of those games were played in AUS, with their umpires .... I guess you can understand what I have done here.

What's Babar missing - I give one example - 1997, Independence Cup in India, PAK lost WW to Counties ... then lost to NZ in first game - so to make the finals, first they had to beat world champs SRL, then host India. It poised beautifully when IND-PAK last game became SF .... that guy Saeed Anwar smashed 194 in that game. Few months later, in Kenya - PAK lost to SAF twice ... so to make the Finals, they had to win over World Champs SRL by 89 runs margin and Rantunga put PAK in so that basically they can chase 89 less to make the final .... that guy Afridi scored 102 in 38 balls, Saeed 100+ ... and PAK 370+, winning by 91 to make the Final. Babar Azam missed Mustafiz's straight one chasing 240 against a BD attack with 2 bowlers short and Shakib injured.........

The stakes are different these days - you have seen Babar scoring 125 against ZIM without Jarvis & Sibanda ... still losing the game .... I have seen PAK 10-2 against McGrath & Fleming in a gloomy Leeds morning in WC effectively QF game, still winning for Inzi's batting; I have seen in mid night PAK chasing 260 in 45 overs against Marshall, Bishop, Ambrose & Walsh - that guy Inzi lofting Ambrose to extra cover crowd .... you saw Afghans stressing PAK to last ball on their adopted home ... you have seen PAK losing 12 out of 13 games against ENG, NZ, IND & BD (Other one washed out) - I have seen PAK facing elimination in Neheru Cup, then winning 4 at a stress - Australia at Mumbai, India at Eden, ENG at Nugpur (That was an epic chase, try to figure out the score card) ..... and then 278 against WIN at Eden in the finals .... and irony is - that target that time was also 279, against Marshall of 1989, Ambrose, Walsh & Benjamin .....

I hope it won't hurt your feelings - your generation have seen Babar among Shan Masood, Imam Ul Haq, Abid Ali, Iftekhar and Harish Sohail .... my generation have seen Mazid, Zaheer, Javed, Saeed, Inzi among themselves and tugging horns with Richards, Greg, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Jones, Crowe, Gower, Lloyd .... my assessments and expectations will be different for a reason.

Excellent post. Another innings which I rate as one of Inzamams best was that 350 chase against India in Karachi in 2004. Pakistan were 43 for 2 in 10 overs and no one even thought of them getting close but Yousuf played a quick innings and Inzamams hundred took them to brink of victory and other games he won chasing big scores.
Also guys like Inzamam and Yousuf have played some great innings and made some big runs in test cricket too which Babar is long way of yet.
He has the potential but needs the hunger to push on and try to improve.

 

[Mamoon]

I have to disappoint you here bro.

Since you haven't seen Javed, means you haven't seen almost anything of PAK cricket - it ended with 1999 WC. If I make a PAK all-time ODI XI with 5 batsmen (Imran & Razzak will bat at 6 & 7, so 5 batsmen), Babar actually won't make my XI still. I don't find him still to replace Mazid, Saeed, Zaheer, Javed and Inzi in that line-up .... if fact won't be reserve over MoYo.

Don't get me wrong - he is head & shoulders above his compatriots, but he is extremely lucky to play for a PAK team that's basically been relegated to second division of International cricket, hence he is scoring lots of soft runs - either against lower ranked teams or compromised XI. Comparison of average & strike rate will be a bit mis-leading here as he is playing in 300+ era, but if I go by the contribution - he is way behind any of these five/six.

I think, I have seen most of Babar's ODI innings - so far only one innings which had some significance in PAK's win in a competitive game was the WC knock against NZ, where Haris played better than him - came at four, so he didn't have the time to hit the hundred. Babar is still a very good accumulator who puts up lots of runs, but if you compare what those 5/6 did in terms of contribution, it's not even a contest yet. In fact, Salim Malik has played more meaningful innings than Babar - couple of mind blowing fifties at Eden, a brilliant chase at Toronto on day 3 wicket against Kumble (chasing 263 I guess), some where in between 1993-94 couple of innings against SAF & AUS....

Starting one by one - Mazid played very few games .... still one of the best early days ODI innings was played by him in 1974 against ENG, chasing like 264... Zaheer matched Viv's stats including facing Viv's bowlers; Javed scored 91 in last 12 overs with AQadir, Wasim & Tauseef, in 1986 ... then hit a last ball six; and I believe you have seen Inzi's 60 in WC or his hundred at Ahmedabad, Karachi.

One particular difference is that PAK cricket sunk so much in last 10-12 years that there is a generation gap between 2007-8 (MoYo's decline) to Babar's raise - in that period ODI cricket has moved from 220 per to 320 per state hence numbers are mind blowing. Few months back, I almost lost my speech when someone posted that Imam-Fakhar-Babar are PAK's historically best 1-2-3 ..... but then, statistically true indeed; in fact they are better than Hynes-Grineedge-Viv; Tendulkar-Ganguly-Sehwag or Gilchrist-Mark/Hayden-Ponting..... statistically.

So, not going by stats, in last 3-4 years, I had memories of Babar failing every time PAK needed him to score or finish - from the Asia Cup KO against BD to WC 2019, CT 2017 or any serious series/game that PAK has played - NZ, SAF, ENG, AUS ..... 5 games against IND .... the last one been ZIM - no bro, no dead rubbers these days - that one loss against ZIM might cost PAK big time, it was worth 10 points. Javed's numbers are relatively poor because he played for a PAK team against whom every team including Lloyd/Viv's WIN will send their best XI - still he was unreal consistent, sometimes between 1987 to 1988, he scored 8 or 9 consecutive 50s when 200 was almost match winning - forward those games 30 years, Javed would have 6-7 hundreds from those innings only. One thing you are not considering that, when PAK players used to get on to field during those 5's time, they were playing to win every game, obviously it won't happen, but no one, not even Ponting's Australia would take it easy - they did lose a home series 2-1. Current PAK team plays to compete with big boys... the pressure and context is totally different. At one point, AUS-PAK ODI H2H was 16-16, and most of those games were played in AUS, with their umpires .... I guess you can understand what I have done here.

What's Babar missing - I give one example - 1997, Independence Cup in India, PAK lost WW to Counties ... then lost to NZ in first game - so to make the finals, first they had to beat world champs SRL, then host India. It poised beautifully when IND-PAK last game became SF .... that guy Saeed Anwar smashed 194 in that game. Few months later, in Kenya - PAK lost to SAF twice ... so to make the Finals, they had to win over World Champs SRL by 89 runs margin and Rantunga put PAK in so that basically they can chase 89 less to make the final .... that guy Afridi scored 102 in 38 balls, Saeed 100+ ... and PAK 370+, winning by 91 to make the Final. Babar Azam missed Mustafiz's straight one chasing 240 against a BD attack with 2 bowlers short and Shakib injured.........

The stakes are different these days - you have seen Babar scoring 125 against ZIM without Jarvis & Sibanda ... still losing the game .... I have seen PAK 10-2 against McGrath & Fleming in a gloomy Leeds morning in WC effectively QF game, still winning for Inzi's batting; I have seen in mid night PAK chasing 260 in 45 overs against Marshall, Bishop, Ambrose & Walsh - that guy Inzi lofting Ambrose to extra cover crowd .... you saw Afghans stressing PAK to last ball on their adopted home ... you have seen PAK losing 12 out of 13 games against ENG, NZ, IND & BD (Other one washed out) - I have seen PAK facing elimination in Neheru Cup, then winning 4 at a stress - Australia at Mumbai, India at Eden, ENG at Nugpur (That was an epic chase, try to figure out the score card) ..... and then 278 against WIN at Eden in the finals .... and irony is - that target that time was also 279, against Marshall of 1989, Ambrose, Walsh & Benjamin .....

I hope it won't hurt your feelings - your generation have seen Babar among Shan Masood, Imam Ul Haq, Abid Ali, Iftekhar and Harish Sohail .... my generation have seen Mazid, Zaheer, Javed, Saeed, Inzi among themselves and tugging horns with Richards, Greg, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Jones, Crowe, Gower, Lloyd .... my assessments and expectations will be different for a reason.

This is a bit harsh on Babar because impactful ODI innings are a product of partnerships. It is not surprising that Babar’s most impactful ODI innings (NZ WC) happened because another batsman stepped up as well. Of all the great innings that you mentioned, and I only remember (watching live) the ones from 1997-1998 onwards, hardly any of them were lone efforts. They were all built on partnerships.

In fact, you look at the greatest ODI knocks ever, and apart from maybe 1-2 (Sir Viv’s 189*, Bevan 185* vs Asia XI come to mind) none of them were lone efforts.

What has hurt Babar the most is that he doesn’t have any partner who is one level below him let alone equal to him. Haris has potential, but his lack of fitness and hunger has cost him a few thousand runs if not more.

Majid had Zaheer, Miandad had Saleem, Inzamam had Saeed Anwar and later MoYo. Babar is into his fifth year of international cricket and 3.5k ODI runs and 12 hundreds later, he still does not have a proper batting partner that he can feed off.

Purely as an individual Babar deserves to be mentioned along those names in ODI cricket. The rate at which he is going, he should be able to surpass them all within his individual capacity by the time he retires, but his impact on the game and the outcome of the matches should be viewed while keeping the lack of proper batting partners and the overall mediocrity of Pakistan cricket in mind.

Swap Babar with Majid, Zaheer, Miandad, Malik, Inzamam, Saeed, Moyo in this team and within the current context and I highly doubt that they will be able to do anything more than what Babar is currently doing.

 

[Ab Fan]

I think Saeed Anwar is the greatest Pakistan ODI batsmen of all-time.

Babar can match Javed's consistency and deliver under pressure situations. He also possess the talent of Inzamam as well as his consistency. But he most likely will not be able to match Anwar's destructive batting ability.

Dunno much about Zaheer Abbas though, he matches Viv S/R albeit at lower sample set but not sure about gear changing ability as haven't seen him much.

So, I think Babar can become 2nd or 3rd best ODI batsmen for Pakistan, better than the likes of Root or Kane but behind Kohli, Rohit and Anwar.

 

[Abdullah Rabbani]

I think Saeed Anwar is the greatest Pakistan ODI batsmen of all-time.

Babar can match Javed's consistency and deliver under pressure situations. He also possess the talent of Inzamam as well as his consistency. But he most likely will not be able to match Anwar's destructive batting ability.

Dunno much about Zaheer Abbas though, he matches Viv S/R albeit at lower sample set but not sure about gear changing ability as haven't seen him much.

So, I think Babar can become 2nd or 3rd best ODI batsmen for Pakistan, better than the likes of Root or Kane but behind Kohli, Rohit and Anwar.

Zaheer has better sr than anwar

 

[Bewal Express]

I think Saeed Anwar is the greatest Pakistan ODI batsmen of all-time.

Babar can match Javed's consistency and deliver under pressure situations. He also possess the talent of Inzamam as well as his consistency. But he most likely will not be able to match Anwar's destructive batting ability.

Dunno much about Zaheer Abbas though, he matches Viv S/R albeit at lower sample set but not sure about gear changing ability as haven't seen him much.

So, I think Babar can become 2nd or 3rd best ODI batsmen for Pakistan, better than the likes of Root or Kane but behind Kohli, Rohit and Anwar.

No PK matches the talent of Inzi, on the other hand no PK wasted his talent like Inzi.

 

[Ab Fan]

No PK matches the talent of Inzi, on the other hand no PK wasted his talent like Inzi.

Given his fitness, Inzi's talent would have been wasted even more had he debuted 5-10 years later.

 

[Bewal Express]

Given his fitness, Inzi's talent would have been wasted even more had he debuted 5-10 years later.

Inzi was an idiot for not realising what he had. Babar is an excellent player and will statistically become our best player in the shorter formats and may get close to the stats for tests of the other guys( if he plays enough matches) but in terms of pure talent both Inzi, SA and MY are all ahead of him.

 

[KoyoAli]

I have to disappoint you here bro.

Since you haven't seen Javed, means you haven't seen almost anything of PAK cricket - it ended with 1999 WC. If I make a PAK all-time ODI XI with 5 batsmen (Imran & Razzak will bat at 6 & 7, so 5 batsmen), Babar actually won't make my XI still. I don't find him still to replace Mazid, Saeed, Zaheer, Javed and Inzi in that line-up .... if fact won't be reserve over MoYo.

Don't get me wrong - he is head & shoulders above his compatriots, but he is extremely lucky to play for a PAK team that's basically been relegated to second division of International cricket, hence he is scoring lots of soft runs - either against lower ranked teams or compromised XI. Comparison of average & strike rate will be a bit mis-leading here as he is playing in 300+ era, but if I go by the contribution - he is way behind any of these five/six.

I think, I have seen most of Babar's ODI innings - so far only one innings which had some significance in PAK's win in a competitive game was the WC knock against NZ, where Haris played better than him - came at four, so he didn't have the time to hit the hundred. Babar is still a very good accumulator who puts up lots of runs, but if you compare what those 5/6 did in terms of contribution, it's not even a contest yet. In fact, Salim Malik has played more meaningful innings than Babar - couple of mind blowing fifties at Eden, a brilliant chase at Toronto on day 3 wicket against Kumble (chasing 263 I guess), some where in between 1993-94 couple of innings against SAF & AUS....

Starting one by one - Mazid played very few games .... still one of the best early days ODI innings was played by him in 1974 against ENG, chasing like 264... Zaheer matched Viv's stats including facing Viv's bowlers; Javed scored 91 in last 12 overs with AQadir, Wasim & Tauseef, in 1986 ... then hit a last ball six; and I believe you have seen Inzi's 60 in WC or his hundred at Ahmedabad, Karachi.

One particular difference is that PAK cricket sunk so much in last 10-12 years that there is a generation gap between 2007-8 (MoYo's decline) to Babar's raise - in that period ODI cricket has moved from 220 per to 320 per state hence numbers are mind blowing. Few months back, I almost lost my speech when someone posted that Imam-Fakhar-Babar are PAK's historically best 1-2-3 ..... but then, statistically true indeed; in fact they are better than Hynes-Grineedge-Viv; Tendulkar-Ganguly-Sehwag or Gilchrist-Mark/Hayden-Ponting..... statistically.

So, not going by stats, in last 3-4 years, I had memories of Babar failing every time PAK needed him to score or finish - from the Asia Cup KO against BD to WC 2019, CT 2017 or any serious series/game that PAK has played - NZ, SAF, ENG, AUS ..... 5 games against IND .... the last one been ZIM - no bro, no dead rubbers these days - that one loss against ZIM might cost PAK big time, it was worth 10 points. Javed's numbers are relatively poor because he played for a PAK team against whom every team including Lloyd/Viv's WIN will send their best XI - still he was unreal consistent, sometimes between 1987 to 1988, he scored 8 or 9 consecutive 50s when 200 was almost match winning - forward those games 30 years, Javed would have 6-7 hundreds from those innings only. One thing you are not considering that, when PAK players used to get on to field during those 5's time, they were playing to win every game, obviously it won't happen, but no one, not even Ponting's Australia would take it easy - they did lose a home series 2-1. Current PAK team plays to compete with big boys... the pressure and context is totally different. At one point, AUS-PAK ODI H2H was 16-16, and most of those games were played in AUS, with their umpires .... I guess you can understand what I have done here.

What's Babar missing - I give one example - 1997, Independence Cup in India, PAK lost WW to Counties ... then lost to NZ in first game - so to make the finals, first they had to beat world champs SRL, then host India. It poised beautifully when IND-PAK last game became SF .... that guy Saeed Anwar smashed 194 in that game. Few months later, in Kenya - PAK lost to SAF twice ... so to make the Finals, they had to win over World Champs SRL by 89 runs margin and Rantunga put PAK in so that basically they can chase 89 less to make the final .... that guy Afridi scored 102 in 38 balls, Saeed 100+ ... and PAK 370+, winning by 91 to make the Final. Babar Azam missed Mustafiz's straight one chasing 240 against a BD attack with 2 bowlers short and Shakib injured.........

The stakes are different these days - you have seen Babar scoring 125 against ZIM without Jarvis & Sibanda ... still losing the game .... I have seen PAK 10-2 against McGrath & Fleming in a gloomy Leeds morning in WC effectively QF game, still winning for Inzi's batting; I have seen in mid night PAK chasing 260 in 45 overs against Marshall, Bishop, Ambrose & Walsh - that guy Inzi lofting Ambrose to extra cover crowd .... you saw Afghans stressing PAK to last ball on their adopted home ... you have seen PAK losing 12 out of 13 games against ENG, NZ, IND & BD (Other one washed out) - I have seen PAK facing elimination in Neheru Cup, then winning 4 at a stress - Australia at Mumbai, India at Eden, ENG at Nugpur (That was an epic chase, try to figure out the score card) ..... and then 278 against WIN at Eden in the finals .... and irony is - that target that time was also 279, against Marshall of 1989, Ambrose, Walsh & Benjamin .....

I hope it won't hurt your feelings - your generation have seen Babar among Shan Masood, Imam Ul Haq, Abid Ali, Iftekhar and Harish Sohail .... my generation have seen Mazid, Zaheer, Javed, Saeed, Inzi among themselves and tugging horns with Richards, Greg, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Jones, Crowe, Gower, Lloyd .... my assessments and expectations will be different for a reason.

That's a ridiculous take If I have ever seen one myself. Babar playing in a weaker team goes against him not in his favor. The Inzamams and Miandads played in Partnerships with Batsmen who could win games for Pakistan by themselves. They had a different self confidence. You can see Babar's Mettle just by watching him play. He is never hurried on by any bowler no matter how quick, he has balance and poise I have never seen in a Pakistani Batsman. Babar has runs against every opposition in Every condition.
Regarding Haris in WC20, the only reason Haris could ever play that freely was cuz he had Babar at the other end. I have seen Haris play many a times and I have never seen him play an innings like that. Most of the time he bats himself into a shell.
The Modern greats of Batting play in Great teams with Great Batsmen. Virat with Rohit, Smith with Warner, Williamson with Taylor and Root with Stokes and Buttler. Babar has no one yet he has been competing with them since his debut. Dont give me your nostalgia and try to make a point out of it. Babar would be the first person on my All time Pak XI, Maybe only behind Wasim Akram.

 

[MMHS]

This is a bit harsh on Babar because impactful ODI innings are a product of partnerships. It is not surprising that Babar’s most impactful ODI innings (NZ WC) happened because another batsman stepped up as well. Of all the great innings that you mentioned, and I only remember (watching live) the ones from 1997-1998 onwards, hardly any of them were lone efforts. They were all built on partnerships.

In fact, you look at the greatest ODI knocks ever, and apart from maybe 1-2 (Sir Viv’s 189*, Bevan 185* vs Asia XI come to mind) none of them were lone efforts.

What has hurt Babar the most is that he doesn’t have any partner who is one level below him let alone equal to him. Haris has potential, but his lack of fitness and hunger has cost him a few thousand runs if not more.

Majid had Zaheer, Miandad had Saleem, Inzamam had Saeed Anwar and later MoYo. Babar is into his fifth year of international cricket and 3.5k ODI runs and 12 hundreds later, he still does not have a proper batting partner that he can feed off.

Purely as an individual Babar deserves to be mentioned along those names in ODI cricket. The rate at which he is going, he should be able to surpass them all within his individual capacity by the time he retires, but his impact on the game and the outcome of the matches should be viewed while keeping the lack of proper batting partners and the overall mediocrity of Pakistan cricket in mind.

Swap Babar with Majid, Zaheer, Miandad, Malik, Inzamam, Saeed, Moyo in this team and within the current context and I highly doubt that they will be able to do anything more than what Babar is currently doing.

There are many great PAK innings without partnerships - I can give lists, but won’t be required. Also, great players help his partners to ease out, not cash on them. Babar got two fantastic starts from Sharjeel in Australia- literally cashed on Sharjeel’s innings to get a hundred. He got a tremendous start from Fakhar/Azhar in CT final - sucked the momentum of PAK innings from 200/2 in 30 overs or so. If you reach high, you’ll be judged in your position, not based on who are below you.

There was no batsman, not only in PAK that carried a batting lineup more than Javed Miandad. Even in this bankrupt days of PAK cricket, at least statistically Imam, Fakhar & Haris are contributing significantly ... from 1985 to 1992, can you tell me who was PAK’s second batsman - arguably it’ll be Imran ..... and that team achieved, achieved lot - a World Cup, Neheru Cup, another WC SF, a final at WSC mini WC, numerous ODI tournaments in UAE; a final in Perth ahead of WIN & AUS ....

As I said - he is into his 5th year of career - and hasn’t done anything apart from soft numbers. On a pure batting merit, he learned lot from Arthur, something YK & MoYo did from Woolmer - did notice their change between 2003 to 2008?

 

[MMHS]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] - one parameter that has changed in ODI is the volume has gone higher hence the partnerships are getting larger - 70-80 is a nothing partnership today, but it was almost match winning when the per was 200.

Even then, without partnerships a batsman can guide his batting - check WC SF of 1992. People remember only Inzi’s blast, but Javed played a gem there. One particular innings I can recall - some Perth Challenge Final on 1st January 1987. Against a very good English side PAK went to like 127/9 in 39’3 overs.... then Javed put 50 with Jafar for last pair in 10’3 overs .... these days Faheem-Shadab can put 59 in 10 overs so no big deal; but what made me to remember that innings is that of the last 63 balls, Jafar played 4 or 5; 2 of those were in 40th over after coming to bat. Somehow, somehow Javed managed to take a single for all 10 overs, 8 or 9 times on last ball. PAK lost that game but Javed was MoM for his 77*.

Babar had enough chances Mamoon, more than enough - at least in 4-5 Tests and few ODIs as well. One WC hundred against Kiwis isn’t enough - he is 26, by that age Inzi won a Test against those scary Aussies at Karachi putting 58 with Mushi in last pair, saved a Test at Antigua against WIN of 1993 by adding 100+ with last two batsman that saved follow on. And, made a wonderful Test hundred on day 1 of lord's Test that set up the game.

He has a chance to make PAK all-time ODI XI in the spot of Mazid as MK didn’t play enough and PAK didn’t try to open with MoYo (would have been a marvellous ODI opener); but other four are simply out of his reach - he’ll have to do lot, lot more.

 

[MMHS]

So Babar's whole career is built on Soft runs? No point in this discussion anymore. Seems like you got offended when ppl started flaming you about the Babar and Tamim comparison in the KK vs LQ thread.

You probably haven’t noticed that I actually am not interested either for discussion.

 

[shamaan]

You can't compare "win matches". India is a much stronger team than Pakistan. It's much harder to perform in losses than in wins. If anything that should be in Babar's favor.

Of course india is much stronger thiers no doubt about that but when you are so close and your settled and you are couple hits away from winning the match you should go and win it example against Zimbabwe yes you could without that innings babar would have lost by a mile but that's the difference

 

[Cric1234]

While Babar is a very good batsman his best averages in ODIs are against Zimbabwe West Indies and Sri Lanka there is little in way of a match winning innings in high scoring matches against the top 5 teams.

Batting has become easier in ODIs now strike rate counts more than a 50 plus average as it’s not difficult to accumulate runs on flat wickets it remains to be seen whether Babar can enter the top tier of ODI batsmen in the future it’s unlikely as his batting is more about finesse than power hitting ability.

 

[UzmanBeast]

We are never happy with what we have. Probably after years of searching, we have found ONE SOLID BATSMAN, who is regarded as one of the best in the world, yet we still criticize him for not being a power hitter, and not being this and that.

If we are setting such expectations for him, why do we carry a playing XI? Let's have him bowl as well. Pathetic points being made, this discussion is plagued with biased opinion and meaningless intuitions about what expectations should be placed on him. Need I remind everyone here that Pakistan is nothing without Babar.


As for how he compares with legends and whatnot, would you judge Haider Ali to be better than Babar Azam after playing 4 T20Is?

 

[MenInG]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Babar Azam's last 6 innings:<br><br>63*<br>65<br>51<br>82<br>125<br>77*<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@Saj_PakPassion) <a href="https://twitter.com/Saj_PakPassion/status/1329508888551493633?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 19, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I have to disappoint you here bro.

Since you haven't seen Javed, means you haven't seen almost anything of PAK cricket - it ended with 1999 WC. If I make a PAK all-time ODI XI with 5 batsmen (Imran & Razzak will bat at 6 & 7, so 5 batsmen), Babar actually won't make my XI still. I don't find him still to replace Mazid, Saeed, Zaheer, Javed and Inzi in that line-up .... if fact won't be reserve over MoYo.

Don't get me wrong - he is head & shoulders above his compatriots, but he is extremely lucky to play for a PAK team that's basically been relegated to second division of International cricket, hence he is scoring lots of soft runs - either against lower ranked teams or compromised XI. Comparison of average & strike rate will be a bit mis-leading here as he is playing in 300+ era, but if I go by the contribution - he is way behind any of these five/six.

I think, I have seen most of Babar's ODI innings - so far only one innings which had some significance in PAK's win in a competitive game was the WC knock against NZ, where Haris played better than him - came at four, so he didn't have the time to hit the hundred. Babar is still a very good accumulator who puts up lots of runs, but if you compare what those 5/6 did in terms of contribution, it's not even a contest yet. In fact, Salim Malik has played more meaningful innings than Babar - couple of mind blowing fifties at Eden, a brilliant chase at Toronto on day 3 wicket against Kumble (chasing 263 I guess), some where in between 1993-94 couple of innings against SAF & AUS....

Starting one by one - Mazid played very few games .... still one of the best early days ODI innings was played by him in 1974 against ENG, chasing like 264... Zaheer matched Viv's stats including facing Viv's bowlers; Javed scored 91 in last 12 overs with AQadir, Wasim & Tauseef, in 1986 ... then hit a last ball six; and I believe you have seen Inzi's 60 in WC or his hundred at Ahmedabad, Karachi.

One particular difference is that PAK cricket sunk so much in last 10-12 years that there is a generation gap between 2007-8 (MoYo's decline) to Babar's raise - in that period ODI cricket has moved from 220 per to 320 per state hence numbers are mind blowing. Few months back, I almost lost my speech when someone posted that Imam-Fakhar-Babar are PAK's historically best 1-2-3 ..... but then, statistically true indeed; in fact they are better than Hynes-Grineedge-Viv; Tendulkar-Ganguly-Sehwag or Gilchrist-Mark/Hayden-Ponting..... statistically.

So, not going by stats, in last 3-4 years, I had memories of Babar failing every time PAK needed him to score or finish - from the Asia Cup KO against BD to WC 2019, CT 2017 or any serious series/game that PAK has played - NZ, SAF, ENG, AUS ..... 5 games against IND .... the last one been ZIM - no bro, no dead rubbers these days - that one loss against ZIM might cost PAK big time, it was worth 10 points. Javed's numbers are relatively poor because he played for a PAK team against whom every team including Lloyd/Viv's WIN will send their best XI - still he was unreal consistent, sometimes between 1987 to 1988, he scored 8 or 9 consecutive 50s when 200 was almost match winning - forward those games 30 years, Javed would have 6-7 hundreds from those innings only. One thing you are not considering that, when PAK players used to get on to field during those 5's time, they were playing to win every game, obviously it won't happen, but no one, not even Ponting's Australia would take it easy - they did lose a home series 2-1. Current PAK team plays to compete with big boys... the pressure and context is totally different. At one point, AUS-PAK ODI H2H was 16-16, and most of those games were played in AUS, with their umpires .... I guess you can understand what I have done here.

What's Babar missing - I give one example - 1997, Independence Cup in India, PAK lost WW to Counties ... then lost to NZ in first game - so to make the finals, first they had to beat world champs SRL, then host India. It poised beautifully when IND-PAK last game became SF .... that guy Saeed Anwar smashed 194 in that game. Few months later, in Kenya - PAK lost to SAF twice ... so to make the Finals, they had to win over World Champs SRL by 89 runs margin and Rantunga put PAK in so that basically they can chase 89 less to make the final .... that guy Afridi scored 102 in 38 balls, Saeed 100+ ... and PAK 370+, winning by 91 to make the Final. Babar Azam missed Mustafiz's straight one chasing 240 against a BD attack with 2 bowlers short and Shakib injured.........

The stakes are different these days - you have seen Babar scoring 125 against ZIM without Jarvis & Sibanda ... still losing the game .... I have seen PAK 10-2 against McGrath & Fleming in a gloomy Leeds morning in WC effectively QF game, still winning for Inzi's batting; I have seen in mid night PAK chasing 260 in 45 overs against Marshall, Bishop, Ambrose & Walsh - that guy Inzi lofting Ambrose to extra cover crowd .... you saw Afghans stressing PAK to last ball on their adopted home ... you have seen PAK losing 12 out of 13 games against ENG, NZ, IND & BD (Other one washed out) - I have seen PAK facing elimination in Neheru Cup, then winning 4 at a stress - Australia at Mumbai, India at Eden, ENG at Nugpur (That was an epic chase, try to figure out the score card) ..... and then 278 against WIN at Eden in the finals .... and irony is - that target that time was also 279, against Marshall of 1989, Ambrose, Walsh & Benjamin .....

I hope it won't hurt your feelings - your generation have seen Babar among Shan Masood, Imam Ul Haq, Abid Ali, Iftekhar and Harish Sohail .... my generation have seen Mazid, Zaheer, Javed, Saeed, Inzi among themselves and tugging horns with Richards, Greg, Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Jones, Crowe, Gower, Lloyd .... my assessments and expectations will be different for a reason.

I am a bit old fashioned as well. I would always rate Javed, Zaheer, Moyo, Inzi, Anwar above others. Even Wasim Raja had a swagger. He would bring his best against the best sides back then.
It was routine to see Inzi winning games on his own with the tail, something Javed used to do before him.

Babar is improving still. He has not come to a standstill but he definitely is improving. With so much media coverage and stuff, cricketers need grooming as well as maintain a media friendly profile as well.
He may not become as good of a finisher as Inzi or Miandad, but he will definitely be a better batter than we have seen from Pakistan in last 10 years.

ODI cricket in my opinion is not as good as it was back then. Pre 2009 Odi's used to be simple, no silly powerplays or self damaging field restrictions. These 2 balls, 35 and 15 over rules have made ODI's pretty one dimensional and even fantastic matches are not being seen as such.

 

[Cric1234]

We are never happy with what we have. Probably after years of searching, we have found ONE SOLID BATSMAN, who is regarded as one of the best in the world, yet we still criticize him for not being a power hitter, and not being this and that.

If we are setting such expectations for him, why do we carry a playing XI? Let's have him bowl as well. Pathetic points being made, this discussion is plagued with biased opinion and meaningless intuitions about what expectations should be placed on him. Need I remind everyone here that Pakistan is nothing without Babar.


As for how he compares with legends and whatnot, would you judge Haider Ali to be better than Babar Azam after playing 4 T20Is?

With or without Babar we will still lose most matches against the top 5 teams somebody like Fakhar on a going day can help win a high scoring match otherwise there isn’t a batsman capable of doing that in the top order.

Imam is too slow despite a 50 plus average very flattering for his ability his strike rate drops into the 70s minus minnows.

Umar Akmal could’ve been a match winner on his day in the top order with potential for 45/95 or better stats in the last 3-4 years of ODI cricket but wasn’t tested properly apart from 1 or 2 innings.

Going forward it is hoped Haider or another batsman can be developed for future otherwise we will consistently lose to the top 5 teams and progress won’t come a similar thing can be said for tests with the batting struggling to compete at times overseas.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Babar's main strength is his consistency, a very rare trait amongst Pak batters in last 15 years.
His innings against NZ in world cup is one of the best ever (at least I rate it very highly due to obvious reasons).

Let's see how his career evolves and let's enjoy his majestic batting

 

[MMHS]

I am a bit old fashioned as well. I would always rate Javed, Zaheer, Moyo, Inzi, Anwar above others. Even Wasim Raja had a swagger. He would bring his best against the best sides back then.
It was routine to see Inzi winning games on his own with the tail, something Javed used to do before him.

Babar is improving still. He has not come to a standstill but he definitely is improving. With so much media coverage and stuff, cricketers need grooming as well as maintain a media friendly profile as well.
He may not become as good of a finisher as Inzi or Miandad, but he will definitely be a better batter than we have seen from Pakistan in last 10 years.

ODI cricket in my opinion is not as good as it was back then. Pre 2009 Odi's used to be simple, no silly powerplays or self damaging field restrictions. These 2 balls, 35 and 15 over rules have made ODI's pretty one dimensional and even fantastic matches are not being seen as such.

The PPlay rule was first introduced in 1991 WSC, it has been modified though few times.

I have written myself that Babar’s technique is very good, his best asset is his balance - never out of shape to play any type of ball.... it’s almost a bipolar experience watching Babar & Fakhar batting together. But, at highest level you have to do something more than scoring runs. I read lot about lack of partners ..... partially true, but did you see our midget batting in Asia Cup 2018? That hundred against SRL and 99 against PAK?

I understand the mindset of younger posters here - everyone is biased for his own time. But, their time has to have something to show as well - Babar averaged in single digit and kiwis blew PAK 5-0. His 5 innings against India has brought him 158 runs at 32/76 stats without a 50; his stats against WIN, ZIM & SRL are 77/88, 115/100, 62/83 ... 9 of his 12 hundreds are against these 3 teams in 24 innings .... and PAK went to as low as 9th rank during his time, now hanging on 6th.

Still, still for the sake of saying I can take it - but he has more time than Ul Haq playing pace ..... his spin play compared to Javed, Zaheer, Saeed .... you know. If the discussions aren’t done in good faith, then probably I should join a certain doctor here talking sweet always.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

I have always wondered about that collapse at the Oval, a magnificent stand between Majid and Zaheer and then a heartbreaking collapse. Some of the shots played by Zaheer especially I watched on YouTube including sweeping the likes of Roberts and Garner. One shot he eased delicately down legside for six.

Miandad was given first ball duck, else maybe that game could have gone to the wire. But I also wonder about Zaheer - he got out to a fairly innocuous ball sliding down legside, edging behind to the keeper and almost criminal for a set batsman on 93.

[MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] would love to know your thoughts. Fantastic if heartbreaking partnership

 

[shaz619]

I think it is a little premature to rate Babar among the best Pak has ever seen but I don't understand why he should be judged harsher for playing in a weaker team, if anything he is under enormous pressure the moment he steps out to bat knowing you need to go big with little / no support at the other end, his performances should be commended more with that in mind. In terms of his greatness, he surely does pass the eye test for now and has some numbers to back it up to, you watch him Bat and appreciate how sound he is technically, elegant and seems to have all the time in the world to play his shots, the timing is surreal and you value the consistency as well, this is reflected in the rankings to across all forms of the game.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

The PPlay rule was first introduced in 1991 WSC, it has been modified though few times.

I have written myself that Babar’s technique is very good, his best asset is his balance - never out of shape to play any type of ball.... it’s almost a bipolar experience watching Babar & Fakhar batting together. But, at highest level you have to do something more than scoring runs. I read lot about lack of partners ..... partially true, but did you see our midget batting in Asia Cup 2018? That hundred against SRL and 99 against PAK?

I understand the mindset of younger posters here - everyone is biased for his own time. But, their time has to have something to show as well - Babar averaged in single digit and kiwis blew PAK 5-0. His 5 innings against India has brought him 158 runs at 32/76 stats without a 50; his stats against WIN, ZIM & SRL are 77/88, 115/100, 62/83 ... 9 of his 12 hundreds are against these 3 teams in 24 innings .... and PAK went to as low as 9th rank during his time, now hanging on 6th.

Still, still for the sake of saying I can take it - but he has more time than Ul Haq playing pace ..... his spin play compared to Javed, Zaheer, Saeed .... you know. If the discussions aren’t done in good faith, then probably I should join a certain doctor here talking sweet always.

What you say makes sense, but I am just saying that Babar is the best Pakistan has produced in last 15 years. He didn't start to come into Test groove till 2018 where we lost the series to NZ at home. He is not going to singlehandedly win Tests anytime soon. But there is improvement still. His run scoring has increased since 2019 started, and has been playing better than he was in the preceding years. How much he can improve, let's see. Pakistan is not that good of a side, but it is undoubtedly stronger with Babar than without him. The only other batter worthy for being in discussion in Pakistan team is Haris Sohail. He looks a level above other batters. Better than Imam, Fakhar and others. He could become a foil to Babar provided they play Tests and ODIs together in future.

Regarding powerplay, i was talking of the batting powerplay that was started in 2009 that could be taken anytime by the batting side, which was made mandatory from 35-40th over by ICC.
I believe MCC should have a say in cricket as well rather than ICC chopping and changing and making ODIs into an extended version of t20is.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Babar's main strength is his consistency, a very rare trait amongst Pak batters in last 15 years.
His innings against NZ in world cup is one of the best ever (at least I rate it very highly due to obvious reasons).

Let's see how his career evolves and let's enjoy his majestic batting

The collapses became more frequent with Pakistan post 2003. Saeed's inning in semi 1999 is probably better than Babar's knock.

 

[Kaddy]

The collapses became more frequent with Pakistan post 2003. Saeed's inning in semi 1999 is probably better than Babar's knock.

Saeed is among my favourite players but sorry no his knock wasn't better, Babar Azam's innings against New Zealand was much better than Saeed Anwar's knock.

Sometimes you can judge better when you watch the match live. That 99 semi final pitch was a batting friendly wicket. Commentators were consistently mentioning this and they praised Pakistani bowling more than Pakistani batsmen.

Saeed Anwar didn't even get MOM for his innings. It was Shoaib Akhtar who got MOM and you know he just got only 3 wickets.

Heck even Wajahatullah Wasti looked like Bradman on that pitch. He played his career best innings on that pitch.

Moreover, kindly check the bowling lineups of New Zealand in the both matches, apart from Alliot, 99s kiwi bowling was way more inferior than their 2019 bowling lineup.

 

[Madplayer]

Babar is a gem but people comparing him to Kohli's prime are just kidding themselves.

 

[Mamoon]

Saeed is among my favourite players but sorry no his knock wasn't better, Babar Azam's innings against New Zealand was much better than Saeed Anwar's knock.

Sometimes you can judge better when you watch the match live. That 99 semi final pitch was a batting friendly wicket. Commentators were consistently mentioning this and they praised Pakistani bowling more than Pakistani batsmen.

Saeed Anwar didn't even get MOM for his innings. It was Shoaib Akhtar who got MOM and you know he just got only 3 wickets.

Heck even Wajahatullah Wasti looked like Bradman on that pitch. He played his career best innings on that pitch.

Moreover, kindly check the bowling lineups of New Zealand in the both matches, apart from Alliot, 99s kiwi bowling was way more inferior than their 2019 bowling lineup.

Calling Saeed’s semifinal knock better than Babar’s is a classic case of revision and nostalgic bias.

That NZ team would not stand a chance against the current Kiwi lot.

 

[Rana]

Can I just ask, how do people not see Babar to be a better batsman than Mohammad Yousuf in ODI cricket? Younis Khan doesn’t even qualify in the ODI debate v Babar Azam.

The only reason why we are arguing Babar Azam is a superstar is because of his heroics in ODI and T20 cricket in the first place...so why is the Test cricket comparison being brought in the first place? He has played 29 Tests, maybe we could start making comparisons with Miandad and Inzimam, plus Mazid after 60 Tests?

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Saeed is among my favourite players but sorry no his knock wasn't better, Babar Azam's innings against New Zealand was much better than Saeed Anwar's knock.

Sometimes you can judge better when you watch the match live. That 99 semi final pitch was a batting friendly wicket. Commentators were consistently mentioning this and they praised Pakistani bowling more than Pakistani batsmen.

Saeed Anwar didn't even get MOM for his innings. It was Shoaib Akhtar who got MOM and you know he just got only 3 wickets.

Heck even Wajahatullah Wasti looked like Bradman on that pitch. He played his career best innings on that pitch.

Moreover, kindly check the bowling lineups of New Zealand in the both matches, apart from Alliot, 99s kiwi bowling was way more inferior than their 2019 bowling lineup.

The pressure of semis can get the better of anyone.
It was sort of surprising how well timed the chase we made of it. If you put our current team in that scenario 8/10 times they would fail to do so but if you put 99 team in 2019 match, they would win it 7/10.

90s was the best time for dibbly dobbly bowlers as with taking pace off the ball it became hard to hit with the ball getting older. The fact that Anwar made it look so easy shouldn't undermine his inning.
I would be pretty amazed if Imam and Fakhar can go through even these 2 without either throwing away their wickets or sucking all the momentum out of the chase.
Chasing 240 in 99 and 2019 are two vastly different things.
I saw both innings live. To say Babar's innings was one of the best ever is a big big stretch.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

Can I just ask, how do people not see Babar to be a better batsman than Mohammad Yousuf in ODI cricket? Younis Khan doesn’t even qualify in the ODI debate v Babar Azam.

The only reason why we are arguing Babar Azam is a superstar is because of his heroics in ODI and T20 cricket in the first place...so why is the Test cricket comparison being brought in the first place? He has played 29 Tests, maybe we could start making comparisons with Miandad and Inzimam, plus Mazid after 60 Tests?

In limited overs, Babar’s comparison is with Saeed Anwar, Miandad, Inzamam, and Zaheer Abbas. I think I would still choose those names over Bobby at this stage of his career, for an ODI playing XI though Bobby still makes the team as 5th best. In fact, Babar probably opens in an all-time Pakistan ODI XI given our lack of good openers to partner Anwar. (Babar makes it over Majid Khan). We also know Bobby can open effectively due to his T20 career.

Something like this is Pakistan’s best all-time ODI XI:

1. Saeed Anwar
2. Babar Azam
3. Zaheer Abbas
4. Javed Miandad (vc)
5. Inzamam ul Haq
6. Imran Khan (c)
7. Moin Khan (wk)
8. Shahid Afridi
9. Wasim Akram
10. Saqlain Mushtaq
11. Waqar Younis

Babar is definitely better than Yousuf and Younis, but not better (yet) than the other batsmen on this above list.

 

[Ab Fan]

It is too early to make any comparisons at this stage. But one think is sure, there is no reason Babar can not become Pakistan's greatest batsmen ever.

Whether he will become Pakistan's greatest or end up below one or two or three names, only time will tell that.

 

[Rana]

In limited overs, Babar’s comparison is with Saeed Anwar, Miandad, Inzamam, and Zaheer Abbas. I think I would still choose those names over Bobby at this stage of his career, for an ODI playing XI though Bobby still makes the team as 5th best. In fact, Babar probably opens in an all-time Pakistan ODI XI given our lack of good openers to partner Anwar. (Babar makes it over Majid Khan). We also know Bobby can open effectively due to his T20 career.

Something like this is Pakistan’s best all-time ODI XI:

1. Saeed Anwar
2. Babar Azam
3. Zaheer Abbas
4. Javed Miandad (vc)
5. Inzamam ul Haq
6. Imran Khan (c)
7. Moin Khan (wk)
8. Shahid Afridi
9. Wasim Akram
10. Saqlain Mushtaq
11. Waqar Younis

Babar is definitely better than Yousuf and Younis, but not better (yet) than the other batsmen on this above list.

Alright, I know stats can be misleading in regards to the quality of opposition and the era they are generated, however Statistically Babar Azam has already disqualified Zaheer Abbas as an ODI player. Was Zaheer still a better player than Babar? I cannot truly say, I started taking a serious interest into cricket in 2003, so I can only argue in the view of players who I have seen very closely such as Inzimam and Mohammad Yousuf. There was enough recent material on sky and youtube to view and analyse Saeed Anwar as well, I was actually at the 1999 wc semi final where he scored that 100. It would be unfair of me to give a complete view on why Babar is better than Javed or Javed is better than Babar, I have never seen Javed Miandad play cricket at the peak of his career.

I would like to confidently argue that I feel Babar is better than Yousuf 100%. And I believe Babar should surpass Inzimam as our best ever ODI batsman. So that being said, my argument at the moment is that from my personal perspective, I believe Inzimam is the ATG ODI Batsman at the moment, and not Saeed Anwar. I would also like to argue that Babar should surpass Inzimam for this title as the Best ever ODI batsman as long as he will play 270+ ODI matches.

Why do I feel Babar should surpass Inzimam, and handsomely surpass him?

Babar is a much fitter, a much more athletic and nimble batsman than Inzimam. Inzimam has always been a much bigger physical unit who has struggled to keep his weight in check throughout his career, but he has been afforded relaxation due to his overweight physique because of his regular performances and batsmanship for Pakistan. This isnt an argument that I am pioneering, but posters in the past here have used Inzimam's poor
conversion rate (10 hundreds and 83 ODI 50s) as a clear indication to how his poor fitness costed him a career with sublime statistics as an ODI great.

+one can argue that Inzimam was never chasing the statistics, the hundred and the 43+ batting average due to his natural, psychological approach to the game where he wanted to stamp his authority in the batting innings and churn out the tough runs for Pakistan. Inzimam could be viewed as a man who would symbolise is intent on soaking in the pressure for his team. This is the reason why he is Pakistan's best ever ODI player regardless of how he could not match Sachin Tendulkar and Ricky Ponting in his era. Look at how Inzimam wanted to score his runs in comparison to how SRT and Ponting wanted to score theirs. The latter were not too worried about others performing around them, whereas Inzimam wanted to ensure that he is standing there at the end for his team.

+This leads to the question of 'the selfish batsman 'versus the one who wants to grind down and score the tough runs. So in essence, I believe Babar Azam is currently approaching ODI cricket (and T20 cricket) with a very different mindset in comparison to Inzimam ul Haq who was approaching the game with a much more of a cavalier approach from a very young age. I believe Haider Ali at the age of 19 versus Inzimam ul Haq at the age of 19 is a far more appropriate comparison. We have not seen enough of young Haider, but what we can see is that this isnt a man that likes to be bogged down and respect the opposition bowlers too much.As mentioned somewhere. Inzimam at the age of 22 produced an ATG performance against New Zealand in the Semi Finals of the world cup. This was a very brave innings in which he could't care less. It was do or die, and he became immortal as a result of taking the game on. Haider Ali looks like he wants to play the game in this manner, not Babar. In comparison though, Babar manages to break free and 'disrespect' the opposition bowlers by just being technically correct with his stroke play and timing. Flambouyancy however is not his forte.

+Is it wrong for Babar Azam to want to be selfish for his runs and to achieve his goals? No, I do not think so. This is because I believe Pakistan is extremely fortunate to have a world class runs machine in their ranks who aims to keep the scoreboard ticking at a strike rate of 90-100 through the middle overs, and sometimes from the very start of the innings, regardless of how people would like him to shift gears the way Steve Smith or Kohli would at times. However, it is the duty of the management of utilising the quality of this consistent performer for Pakistan make sure that the remaining batsman contribute enough to produce a respectable total or the bowlers to defend.
+Pakistan were yearning, crying for a player in the top 3-4 to produce regular scores for the side since 2011 with all of its issues. None of the middle order, top order batsmen were taking the responsibility seriously. Mohammad Hafeez was a bright beacon of hope for a bit but he failed miserably in the 2013 away series to South Africa in which Dale Steyn was tormenting the Pakistan side, and it became apparent that we are fast declining as an ODI side in comparison to India, South Africa and Australia. Umar Akmal's mental weaknesses were fast on the rise, alongside his carelessness with his fitness. In such desperate times, a man who wants to bat for as long as possible enjoy his batting and score that 70-80+ score at a decent rate would have been a Godsend, and would have released a lot of pressure on the mediocre players who were being asked to do too much. Babar provided this contingency to the team by late 2015-2016 and Pakistan has definitely been a much better Batting unit since the retirement of Misbah and Younis Khan. In the last 4 years, he has solely been the reason why Pakistan are still staying afloat as a competitive side, although one that is losing 3 in 4 games against the best sides in the world. He alone is a reason why we are still likely to produce wins against High Quality teams such as New Zealand, England, Australia and South Africa otherwise there is no reason for us to be as hopeless as some of the lower ranked sides. Mohammad Hafeez, Imam ul Haq and Harris Sohail will only be as good as their core engine at no.3 will allow them to be. Umar Akmal could not step up to become that core engine whereas Babar has done it and is well on his way to breaking all the records set by the Best Pakistani batsmen before him

We can dive deeper in why Babar is or isnt going to be better than Inzimam. Maybe someone can explain what Babar needs to do to be better than Saeed Anwar and Miandad, as I said I am in no position to compare him with the two at the moment.

 

[Bhaijaan]

The thing about Bobby is that he is a grower but not a shower.

 

[MMHS]

What you say makes sense, but I am just saying that Babar is the best Pakistan has produced in last 15 years. He didn't start to come into Test groove till 2018 where we lost the series to NZ at home. He is not going to singlehandedly win Tests anytime soon. But there is improvement still. His run scoring has increased since 2019 started, and has been playing better than he was in the preceding years. How much he can improve, let's see. Pakistan is not that good of a side, but it is undoubtedly stronger with Babar than without him. The only other batter worthy for being in discussion in Pakistan team is Haris Sohail. He looks a level above other batters. Better than Imam, Fakhar and others. He could become a foil to Babar provided they play Tests and ODIs together in future.

Regarding powerplay, i was talking of the batting powerplay that was started in 2009 that could be taken anytime by the batting side, which was made mandatory from 35-40th over by ICC.
I believe MCC should have a say in cricket as well rather than ICC chopping and changing and making ODIs into an extended version of t20is.

If you notice, in my first post I mentioned that PAK cricket got into a hollow from 12 years - since Inzi’s retirement & MoYo’s decline to Babar’s raise a good 10-12 years, PAK best ODI batsman was a mix between Hafeez, Misbah & Umar - that itself will make Babar look like a moon among stars.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

If you notice, in my first post I mentioned that PAK cricket got into a hollow from 12 years - since Inzi’s retirement & MoYo’s decline to Babar’s raise a good 10-12 years, PAK best ODI batsman was a mix between Hafeez, Misbah & Umar - that itself will make Babar look like a moon among stars.

Pak Cricket also suffered in the tumultuous period of 2007-2010.
1. Shoaib Malik's rise to captaincy never went down well with some regular players in the side. Yousaf and Abdul Razzaq to name two. Politics reached a new height.
2. Pakistan didn't play a single test in 2008. Apart from Asia Cup and the series against weak Zim and Ban(sorry but you know that team wasn't that good) preceding it, I think we only played a 3 odi series against WI. So basically only played cricket from april-june for all year.
3. The lack of tests led to drastic decrease in quality of pitches at home. The sad and terrifying attack on SL team left a definite mark on Pak cricket and did affect our cricket for the worse.

Plus I don't think Yousaf post 2006 was a good enough senior figure for incoming juniors as that person was constantly involved in fights in the dressing room and beyond, he stopped paying attention to his fitness and started compromising on his performance. I doubt he was fully fit once from after returning from his ICL stint till his ouster from the team in 2010.

But during pathetic Naseem Ashraf-Ijaz Butt regime starting from 2006-2011, our team nosedived to heights it had never gone before and never really rose to a good degree. There were a few good series in between like 2010 test series against NZ, 2016 test series in England, 2015 series against England in UAE. Even 2016-17 Australian tour wasn't as bad as 2006. If not for the brainless collapse on the final day in MCG, Pak had played okayish till then. Once they lost that game, the morale was visibly broken down and in Sydney, Pak played like ameteurs.

 

[MMHS]

Pak Cricket also suffered in the tumultuous period of 2007-2010.
1. Shoaib Malik's rise to captaincy never went down well with some regular players in the side. Yousaf and Abdul Razzaq to name two. Politics reached a new height.
2. Pakistan didn't play a single test in 2008. Apart from Asia Cup and the series against weak Zim and Ban(sorry but you know that team wasn't that good) preceding it, I think we only played a 3 odi series against WI. So basically only played cricket from april-june for all year.
3. The lack of tests led to drastic decrease in quality of pitches at home. The sad and terrifying attack on SL team left a definite mark on Pak cricket and did affect our cricket for the worse.

Plus I don't think Yousaf post 2006 was a good enough senior figure for incoming juniors as that person was constantly involved in fights in the dressing room and beyond, he stopped paying attention to his fitness and started compromising on his performance. I doubt he was fully fit once from after returning from his ICL stint till his ouster from the team in 2010.

But during pathetic Naseem Ashraf-Ijaz Butt regime starting from 2006-2011, our team nosedived to heights it had never gone before and never really rose to a good degree. There were a few good series in between like 2010 test series against NZ, 2016 test series in England, 2015 series against England in UAE. Even 2016-17 Australian tour wasn't as bad as 2006. If not for the brainless collapse on the final day in MCG, Pak had played okayish till then. Once they lost that game, the morale was visibly broken down and in Sydney, Pak played like ameteurs.

I think two events were killer nails in PAK cricket coffin - 3/9 shooting and August 2010 fixing issues (followed by moronic statements).

First event took cricket out of PAK and landed in the desert which basically sucked every bit of blood out of PAK cricket - batsmen with zero flair or back-foot game, darters opening bowling, new ball pacers waiting for the ball to get ruffed up, captain playing dead-ball game ..... and dropping any batsman with some aggressive instinct.

Second event didn't allow PAK to shift their compromised home to UK, which would have been instant hit - more successful than cricket in PAK itself, particularly Test cricket. PCB did start to walk in that path with series against AUS, but then it ended prematurely for that cursed event. Also, what cost PAK cricket big time from August 2010 events is that County path was shut down to PAK cricketers, otherwise I believe Wahab, Amir, Asif would have formed a tremendous attack and Hafeez, Umar ...... would have been much better batsmen.

 

[Savak]

How many ads does he come in? I have hardly seen him on enough billboards

 

[yxsr]

^ do not take the bengali's comment seriously and with a pinch of salt. This is how dads talk who cant get over their own generation and old is gold and everything new gen isnt.

Babar by all qualities is the finest strokesman and timer of the ball weve produced all he lacks is the no. of runs/centuries among our other greats, but at the rate he's going he's gonna step over all of them. Believe me Babar makes our ATG's list simply of his ability being greater. Take my word not some bengali dad up there

 

[Rana]

^ do not take the bengali's comment seriously and with a pinch of salt. This is how dads talk who cant get over their own generation and old is gold and everything new gen isnt.

Babar by all qualities is the finest strokesman and timer of the ball weve produced all he lacks is the no. of runs/centuries among our other greats, but at the rate he's going he's gonna step over all of them. Believe me Babar makes our ATG's list simply of his ability being greater. Take my word not some bengali dad up there

He is slowly but surely exposing his agenda here. A much sweet talk version of Mamoon. Josef Mengala style.

 

[sharmaji]

Babar as a player is already a superstar. We'll see if he can be a superstar captain as well (to be judged in 5-6 years time, ofcourse).

 

[BunnyRabbit]

I think two events were killer nails in PAK cricket coffin - 3/9 shooting and August 2010 fixing issues (followed by moronic statements).

First event took cricket out of PAK and landed in the desert which basically sucked every bit of blood out of PAK cricket - batsmen with zero flair or back-foot game, darters opening bowling, new ball pacers waiting for the ball to get ruffed up, captain playing dead-ball game ..... and dropping any batsman with some aggressive instinct.

Second event didn't allow PAK to shift their compromised home to UK, which would have been instant hit - more successful than cricket in PAK itself, particularly Test cricket. PCB did start to walk in that path with series against AUS, but then it ended prematurely for that cursed event. Also, what cost PAK cricket big time from August 2010 events is that County path was shut down to PAK cricketers, otherwise I believe Wahab, Amir, Asif would have formed a tremendous attack and Hafeez, Umar ...... would have been much better batsmen.

Agreed on what 2010 scandal did and switching between UAE and England would have been pretty sweet.
But I don't think Hafeez and Umar Akmal would have become better players if our "home" series had been relocated to England. Umar was the cause of his own downfall no one else. Although he was dropped unfairly from Test team ahead of Shafiq, he would have soon succumbed to his lack of brain.
Wahab wouldn't have been a better bowler in England though. Still believe Wahab is a liability with the new ball especially in the first 25 overs in ODIs. And he got plenty of time to develop conventional swing in the domestic cricket in Pakistan where there good amount for conditions available for pace bowlers and pace bowlers usually top the charts in FC cricket regularly.

We did the best we could in UAE Tests. Dropping players with aggressive instincts was more down to management issues rather than cricketing especially in LOIs. Aggressive batters in LOIs usually do well in uae. Glenn Maxwell has a very good record in LOIs in UAE.
Actually Tests in UAE had a distinct flair to it as well. A boring one yes but it does have it. 3 slow days and then match suddenly coming alive in the last 2 days.

I don't think Pak Cricket is dead. It is on path to become better. Comparing how our team suffered from 2007-2011, and how our team was back in 2013-2015 to how it is now, there is a good amount of difference than the current one is on the ascending trend. It will be a slow ascend but hopefully better times await. Just need to tweak the minor issues regarding the senior and junior teams and their management, the grassroot cricket and domestic cricket takes a good amount of time to reap the crop.