Babri Masjid - A lost opportunity for Indian Muslims?

[akheR]

The Son's of Lord Ram ruled Punjab region. One ruled the regions of Haryana, Himachal... and the other Luv ruled Pakistan Punjab. I think the name Lahore comes from Luv.

Interesting... can you tell more ? Looks like ancient Pakistanis already made the difference between East and West Punjab, thus defining the future intl. borders.

 

[Smiling Creed]

Interesting... can you tell more ? Looks like ancient Pakistanis already made the difference between East and West Punjab, thus defining the future intl. borders.

It seems that ancient name of Lahore was Lavapuri and there is a temple associated with that inside shahi qila.

 

[Bhaijaan]

^ This one-

 

[Bhaijaan]

Very well taken care of, at least our brother X-men has not got to it yet.

 

[Singham]

i agree with fc on what he says about lord ram.it was disgraceful what he did to sita.(and before people hate on me let me say i'm a hindu).

FC and you are just an example that Hindus are mostly secular and do not care about religion and stuff. I expect the same from my Muslim brothers.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

People are hating on me because i am taking Mother Sita's side against Lord Rama?

Dude stop to be naive, I deleted so many Facebook friends for same reason after Delhi rape case. You educated folks fail to see or recognize suffering of men in Sub-continent. 'Mard ko dard nahin hota' is fine only in movies, in reality men are more prone to suicide after break-up,divorce and fake dowry/rape allegations. Same reason we don't treat depression in sub-continent, mard ko depression kaise ho sakta hai? or we use slangs like Khusra/Hijra for gay men! Indian laws are already very women gender biased, and you expect more tougher measure's so that these desi chudail's can have fun and ruin life of innocents. You are from Punjab, you must be aware of fake relation-ships just to get Canadian passport.

You have no authority to abuse Hindu religion even if you are born in Hindu family, if You are atheist, it's fine.

Sometimes I feel people in rural India have better understanding of life, guys who life in metro cities are brainwashed to the core esp. by English Media like CNN-IBN. Stupid non sense movies like 'Zindagi na milegi dobara' is result of this ongoing brainwashing process.

 

[Bhaijaan]

^

You said so many things in one post that i don't know what to make of it. When did i say mard ko dard nhi hota? Exactly which mards are you trying to defend here?


Delhi kaand
Facebook
Rural Indians
Metro people
Educated folk
Zindagi na Milegi Dobara
Mard
Aurat
Hijra
Khussra
Gay
Na Mard
Emotions
Immigration
Fake marriage
Canadians
Punjabis
CNN-IBN
Hindus
Authority
Atheists



Loaded post.

 

[jatt]

i being neutral person my view is why didnt the hindus stop babur when he distroyed the temple if it really existed. where was their bravery. but now when india is secular and independent nation and not a kingdom they think they own this country n can do whatever. now with muslims whats the big deal if they can let them build a mandir and cede them some space. ist hindu muslims brothers. where do muslims came from. from hindus right so if they wil let them build their temple it would make their ancestors happy too.

 

[FusedBulb]

i being neutral person my view is why didnt the hindus stop babur when he distroyed the temple if it really existed. where was their bravery. but now when india is secular and independent nation and not a kingdom they think they own this country n can do whatever. now with muslims whats the big deal if they can let them build a mandir and cede them some space. ist hindu muslims brothers. where do muslims came from. from hindus right so if they wil let them build their temple it would make their ancestors happy too.

where do Hindus came from? If we are all sons of Adams then Hindus came from Muslims since Prophet Adam was a Muslim

 

[cricketjoshila]

Re: Babri Masjid - a lost opportunity for Indian muslims?

where do Hindus came from? If we are all sons of Adams then Hindus came from Muslims since Prophet Adam was a Muslim

Islam came into being after Prophet(PBUH) had the Quran revealed to him.No one before that was a Muslim and the Jews and Christians dont believe that they were muslims and Hindus dont believe in Adam.

So dont look and judge people on basis of Islam who dont believe in Islam.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Re: Babri Masjid - a lost opportunity for Indian muslims?

i being neutral person my view is why didnt the hindus stop babur when he distroyed the temple if it really existed. where was their bravery. but now when india is secular and independent nation and not a kingdom they think they own this country n can do whatever. now with muslims whats the big deal if they can let them build a mandir and cede them some space. ist hindu muslims brothers. where do muslims came from. from hindus right so if they wil let them build their temple it would make their ancestors happy too.

The Arabs before Islam had a polyathestic religion which included Idol worship.But they were not Hindus.

But yes if you talk about of sub continental muslims most of them are converts to Islam.

 

[jatt]

where do Hindus came from? If we are all sons of Adams then Hindus came from Muslims since Prophet Adam was a Muslim

non abrahamic religion people dont believe in adam and apple theory of abrahamic religions. muslm of subcontinent at least 90% had hindu ancestors. even your quaid de azams grandfather was hindu

 

[IgnitedMind]

I support FC too on this....What Lord Ram did to Sita was Despicable...and was the initial trigger to treatment of Women today...

I mean chastity tests in front of a million people?? Talk about objectifying women ...this was where women's chastity....virgnity became more important....and virgnity was equated to Dignity... and also one of the highest reasons for Rape in this country...coz most rapists want to rape not coz of lust...but to steal their "dignity".....which they would not if otherwise !!


It is despicable and nonsense that we teach kids Ramayana....it was stupid !!!!

And Rama also says that Accusations of Sita is a slur on the dynasty.....The root of honor killings....and associating women 's sex life with dignity of the house...

Even if say Ravana touched her..the fact that Sita had to prove herself and the loss of dignity is associated to forcefully touched than the person who touches her..leads todays treatment of rape victims in the rural part....they are given a more harder life and looked down upon....

It really angries me when I see Rama and Sita shown as idle couple....Sita was a good wife....But Rama is root cause of Today's male chavunism !!!!

 

[Bhaijaan]

where do Hindus came from? If we are all sons of Adams then Hindus came from Muslims since Prophet Adam was a Muslim

We have evolved to humanhood. Science has already torn apart creationism theory dude,what are you on about? Adam, Eve are just stories the real thing is the universal mother and she was most probably an African.

 

[shakil]

Dude stop to be naive, I deleted so many Facebook friends for same reason after Delhi rape case. You educated folks fail to see or recognize suffering of men in Sub-continent. 'Mard ko dard nahin hota' is fine only in movies, in reality men are more prone to suicide after break-up,divorce and fake dowry/rape allegations. Same reason we don't treat depression in sub-continent, mard ko depression kaise ho sakta hai? or we use slangs like Khusra/Hijra for gay men! Indian laws are already very women gender biased, and you expect more tougher measure's so that these desi chudail's can have fun and ruin life of innocents. You are from Punjab, you must be aware of fake relation-ships just to get Canadian passport.

You have no authority to abuse Hindu religion even if you are born in Hindu family, if You are atheist, it's fine.

Sometimes I feel people in rural India have better understanding of life, guys who life in metro cities are brainwashed to the core esp. by English Media like CNN-IBN. Stupid non sense movies like 'Zindagi na milegi dobara' is result of this ongoing brainwashing process.

Agree. It is grass greener on the other side thing. Yes it looks nice when Women are given total freedom and you can stay with them without marriage but in the long run things can get pretty crazy.

IMO, our family system/values is the only positive thing about us Desis minus conservative views and I am an atheist

 

[Bhaijaan]

^ Who is saying family values are not important?

 

[shakil]

^ Who is saying family values are not important?

What I mean is that Indian/Pakistani society is not as anti-women as people (esp. those living abroad) would like to think

And I think that Sita/Ram story signifies the importance of Chastity which is the core of our family values.

 

[RexRex]

That cover allmost all of the humanity except some atheiest. what are you on about

Read it in the context of this thread.Obviously I was referring to fighting for relics and structures centuries after they've been looted or displaced.. like it has some kind of eternal mystique built into it.
Hagia Sophia was the like the Vatican of the East for around a thousand years before it came under siege and the Ottomans made it a mosque for the next 500 years but today it rests peacefully as a museum.

 

[Bhaijaan]

May be lesser number of minors would have been abducted and forced into the prostitution trade across whole India if virginity wasn't a big deal in the society? Apparently i read more about cases against minors than grown up women. Preserving culture and all is good but then you look at ground realities and realize how a number of traditional things have done more harm to the society than good. Having known so many honour killing incidents in my life, its just too hard to digest this family values crap against personal freedom.

 

[oyei]

May be lesser number of minors would have been abducted and forced into the prostitution trade across whole India if virginity wasn't a big deal in the society? Apparently i read more about cases against minors than grown up women. Preserving culture and all is good but then you look at ground realities and realize how a number of traditional things have done more harm to the society than good. Having known so many honour killing incidents in my life, its just too hard to digest this family values crap against personal freedom.

that is the case in every nation, i do not think it has to anything with virginity. some perv would always prefer a younger one, virgin or not.

 

[shakil]

May be lesser number of minors would have been abducted and forced into the prostitution trade across whole India if virginity wasn't a big deal in the society? Apparently i read more about cases against minors than grown up women. Preserving culture and all is good but then you look at ground realities and realize how a number of traditional things have done more harm to the society than good. Having known so many honour killing incidents in my life, its just too hard to digest this family values crap against personal freedom.

Rapes = common in both east and west. Probably more so in east but that is only because of corruption and lack of accountability rather than cultural

Killing Woman/Wife/Spouse = Even my apartment owner killed his wife. Just that he got punished whereas in India/Pakistan they could walk free depending on their sources.

Of course, everything comes with a baggage because not everyone will follow and respect the values (ignoring honor killing as cultural/allegorical and accepting some ills - banishment from society seems okay to me though).

 

[par]

Babri demolition is a black spot on India's secularism and rightly so. It gace rise to religious extremism on both sides and there are still repercussions.

I have had these thoughts in my mind for a long time, putting them here for a discussion - I believe that Indian Muslims lost a huge opportunity to show their generosity and to get assimilated in the mainstream.

The 70s and 80s were tumultuous decades in India. Early nineties saw Rajeev Gandhi at the helm. He was a political novice and did whatever his political advisers said. There had been a history of Muslim appeasement (in smaller matters, overall they still lag behind) in India and there had been an anger in Hindus against it. The historic Shahbano judgement and Rajeev's unconstitutional reversal of it, fanned it even more.

Then comes the matter of Ram temple. Ram is one of the biggest Gods of Hindus, and his birthplace is very, very holy. Whereas Babri was just another mosque for Muslims. There had been umpteen attempts to explain this to Muslims and get only a little land where Ram was supposedly born and make a small temple there. Moderate sections of Muslims were ready for it, but hardliners vehemently against.

Advani exploited Rajeev's Muslim appeasement and this unwillingness by Muslims to concede even a little to the hilt. Most of the Hindus are not as strongly religious as Muslims are; I would put their numbers as high as 90% (there is a reason why BJP is out of power, and Mosi isn't a viable PM candidate). But even the moderates see Advani's PoV and it fanned anger. This culminated in Babru demolition, subsequent riots and it's after-effects can still be felt.

If only the Muslim leadership had shown little magnanimity, not only they would have won Hindus' hearts for ever, but would have also nipped the Hindu religious extremism for ever.

Your thoughts?

I believe, after the Hindu organisations somehow got a somewhat favourable decision to them on the Babri Masjid case, they have to show big hearts and generosity and give away the land to our Muslim brothers and sisters for maintaining peace in India.

 

[tempus123]

I have never seen or interacted with God Ram or for that matter any XYZ god.


However, almost every day I interact with a muslim who is a human and shares his life on this earth with me.

I will never choose a temple or a God against a human. For me the human has more value than any God, temple, mosque etc etc.

What kind of logic is this ? I have never seen Siachen, so have no connection with that place, but I may have a friend in Army who puts his life in danger to protect Siachen, is he being naive about it ?

 

[tempus123]

But then the question is how can people consider ram as a godly figure?isn't he supposed to rise above these issues,if he truly was god-like?or was god to supposed to pander to everything what the society says.
If he did what society told him too then how is he different from any xyz guy of that time?

He was not perfect.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Babri Masjid issue was a lost opportunity for secularism and justice in india. While trying to appease right wing, political parties and the judiciary did great damage to the indian society. Effects of which will be ever lasting.

Yes, many mosques were built over existing temples in the past. That was a historical wound for some (many?) hindus, but the solution should have been to rebuild a temple along side the mosque, not be demolishing it, or placing idols inside it. There are many places in india where a temple and mosque are side by side. By demolishing babri masjid, it created a chain of events for which india continues to pay a price. rise of hindutva politics, rise of home grown muslim and hindu extremists, rise of pseudo seculars. Somewhere between them, true secularism died.

 

[gani999]

I have a simple suggestion...

There are thousands of temples and mosques all over India...

Why not leave that place for the Gods to decide? Let us wait and watch. If God does exist, he/she does not need a Ramchand or Salim to build a home for him/her. God is capable of handling himself.


Just leave that place and go pray else where. I bet there are many more Mosques and temples in Ayodhya.

I have a better idea.

Demolish all the construction in the disputed site and build a massive, super speciality hospital there.

The Ayodhya region needs more hospitals, I am told.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I have a better idea.

Demolish all the construction in the disputed site and build a massive, super speciality hospital there.

The Ayodhya region needs more hospitals, I am told.

What utter rubbish.

This is the exact problem with the pseudo seculars. You may not need a place of worship, but millions do. No need to look down upon their beliefs. Hospitals and schools can be build without demolishing temples and mosques.

 

[gani999]

What utter rubbish.

This is the exact problem with the pseudo seculars. You may not need a place of worship, but millions do. No need to look down upon their beliefs. Hospitals and schools can be build without demolishing temples and mosques.

I am sorry but medical care should be and is always more important than any religion will ever be.
Let me see your Allahs and Rams, Mullahs and Pandits cure cancer or AIDS.

Nitpicking over which religion is greater while ignoring far more important issues like education, healthcare and unemployment is the biggest sign of idiocy in our part of the world.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I am sorry but medical care should be and is always more important than any religion will ever be.
Let me see your Allahs and Rams, Mullahs and Pandits cure cancer or AIDS.

Nitpicking over which religion is greater while ignoring far more important issues like education, healthcare and unemployment is the biggest sign of idiocy in our part of the world.

Let us demolish all cricket, hockey, football stadiums, all theatres and multiplexes first and build schools and hospitals there.

Surely education and medical treatment is always more important than any form of entertainment. Those Sachins and Shahrukhs cannot cure cancer or AIDS.

 

[Bhaijaan]

If we idiots really were successful humans, we could have agreed on building an international university over there but no we want mosques and temples. Idiots we are.

 

[gani999]

Let us demolish all cricket, hockey, football stadiums, all theatres and multiplexes first and build schools and hospitals there.

Surely education and medical treatment is always more important than any form of entertainment. Those Sachins and Shahrukhs cannot cure cancer or AIDS.

If people kill other people and prevent real progress in the name of cricket, hockey, football and other forms of entertainment, then all these activities should be banned too, or at least regulated in some way.

I am neither against any religion nor against building Masjids and Mandirs peacefully, but too much blood has been shed in the name of this Babri masjid-Ram Janmabhoomi nonsense by both communities. It is time both communities were put in their place.

So no mandir and no masjid either. Build a hospital which will benefit everyone!

 

[Slog]

Very well said. If only Muslims could have just given up that land which holds no significance for them to the Hindus ( who care ) for whom its the most sacred place , could have done wonders for the unity.

But Since that hasnt happened one can wonder how much the other party demands and how much are they willing to offer to others even for the sake of peace .

I think its only the duty of Hindus to give up their rights so as to maintain communal harmony in India but such a policy can work only for some time and it will come to bite back in the longer run and we have history as an evidence of it.

And mind you if the demographies were opposite to what they are in India right now, all the proud secularism would have thrown in some garbage bag , no court rulings would have taken place and wasted time on that case for so many years but a Mosque would have already been built on that land by now.

wrong. How can you decide on your own what has significance for Indian Muslims and what doesnt?

 

[CricketCartoons]

If people kill other people and prevent real progress in the name of cricket, hockey, football and other forms of entertainment, then all these activities should be banned too, or at least regulated in some way.

I am neither against any religion nor against building Masjids and Mandirs peacefully, but too much blood has been shed in the name of this Babri masjid-Ram Janmabhoomi nonsense by both communities. It is time both communities were put in their place.

So no mandir and no masjid either. Build a hospital which will benefit everyone!

Oh, I see, you are speaking from a humanist angle. Too much blood has been shed in the name of nationalism, so let abolish all nations, starting with India. Too much blood has been shed in the name of nationalism by indians and pakistanis, so it is time these countries are put in their place.

So no India and no Pakistan. Only hospitals everywhere.

 

[gani999]

Oh, I see, you are speaking from a humanist angle. Too much blood has been shed in the name of nationalism, so let abolish all nations, starting with India. Too much blood has been shed in the name of nationalism by indians and pakistanis, so it is time these countries are put in their place.
.

By all means, destroy nationalism and nations! If nationalism has done more harm than good, it too needs to go. Make the World a single nation where everyone cares for and respects everyone else. Then we won't need religions anymore.

 

[CricketCartoons]

By all means, destroy nationalism and nations! If nationalism has done more harm than good, it too needs to go. Make the World a single nation where everyone cares for and respects everyone else. Then we won't need religions anymore.

Your utopian deluded ideas have no place in present India. Religion is going nowhere. Happy that Indians are more religious and pseudo atheists are a minority.

 

[gani999]

Your utopian deluded ideas have no place in present India. Religion is going nowhere. Happy that Indians are more religious and pseudo atheists are a minority.

Well, most things we take for granted today were at one time 'deluded and utopian ideas'. Space flight, air travel, disease curing antibiotics, the internet, kidney transplant, safe surgery, universal declaration of human rights, abolition of slavery and a whole host of other things that have made our lives better were all once considered 'utopian ideas of mad mavericks'.

You would know it if you took the effort to get some education and lift those silly spacers.

With regards to the Babri business, I was born and brought up in India, saw the post -Babri masjid demolition riots first hand, even went around in vigilante groups to separate mobs of Hindus and Muslims who were hell bent on murdering each other. Some of my mates even got killed trying to make peace. I , more than any of the likes of you, know how much damage this kind of religious bigotry and narrow mindedness bordering on violence does to a society. We are better off without it. Therefore I stand by whatever I believe in.

Spare me the lecture about what is good for my country, Mr Bangladeshi Immigrant!.

 

[CricketCartoons]

Well, most things we take for granted today were at one time 'deluded and utopian ideas'. Space flight, air travel, disease curing antibiotics, the internet, kidney transplant, safe surgery, universal declaration of human rights, abolition of slavery and a whole host of other things that have made our lives better were all once considered 'utopian ideas of mad mavericks'.

You would know it if you took the effort to get some education and lift those silly spacers.

With regards to the Babri business, I was born and brought up in India, saw the post -Babri masjid demolition riots first hand, even went around in vigilante groups to separate mobs of Hindus and Muslims who were hell bent on murdering each other. Some of my mates even got killed trying to make peace. I , more than any of the likes of you, know how much damage this kind of religious bigotry and narrow mindedness bordering on violence does to a society. We are better off without it. Therefore I stand by whatever I believe in.

So spare me the lecture about what is good for my country.

Yes, the same lame talk, that everything we see today was once considered utopian, therefore what crap we say today will also happen one day. Lol. And trying to ride on scientific advancement, when most scientists and inventors have been religious. Look up what Newton and Einstein had to say about religion. Somehow atheists like to claim them for their own, because they dont have any of their own to claim.

Spare all this crap about I have seen this and that. You have seen religious bigotry, therefore you think banning religion and worship will be a great idea. What about implementing law enforcement and strong justice system, instead of taking away the fundamental rights to religion of the people. And guys like you will lecture us on tolerance, when you have zero tolerance for others faiths. LMAO.

Pseudo seculars, the biggest danger to society.

 

[gani999]

Pseudo seculars, the biggest danger to society.

.

Any day better than anarchists who use religion to create divisions in a stable society and hinder mankind's progress.

 

[Raw deal]

Babri Masjid issue was a lost opportunity for secularism and justice in india. While trying to appease right wing, political parties and the judiciary did great damage to the indian society. Effects of which will be ever lasting.

Yes, many mosques were built over existing temples in the past. That was a historical wound for some (many?) hindus, but the solution should have been to rebuild a temple along side the mosque, not be demolishing it, or placing idols inside it. There are many places in india where a temple and mosque are side by side. By demolishing babri masjid, it created a chain of events for which india continues to pay a price. rise of hindutva politics, rise of home grown muslim and hindu extremists, rise of pseudo seculars. Somewhere between them, true secularism died.

Wrong. By destruction of one " babri masjid" , Muslims are not denied of their rights to pray in their mosques. If only Indian Muslims are tolerant and accept that the Babri masjid which was built on a Hindu temple is wrong, we would have more peace in this country.
What's this name " babri masjid" ? Why is the name " babri" ? In Ayodya, on Ram's birth place? Ever imagined a Hindu temple in Mecca or madina?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Wrong. By destruction of one " babri masjid" , Muslims are not denied of their rights to pray in their mosques. If only Indian Muslims are tolerant and accept that the Babri masjid which was built on a Hindu temple is wrong, we would have more peace in this country.
What's this name " babri masjid" ? Why is the name " babri" ? In Ayodya, on Ram's birth place? Ever imagined a Hindu temple in Mecca or madina?

To redress the historical wounds of one community you inflict wounds on another? It does not have to be zero sum.

 

[walsh_ambrose]

The fallacy here is that India is Secular. That boat sailed with separate civil code for muslims and the idea was obliterated with the Shahbono case.

The kongressi goons continued the non-sense with the quota for muslims.

No, India is not secular thanks to the weasly Kongressi idiots.

 

[walsh_ambrose]

To redress the historical wounds of one community you inflict wounds on another? It does not have to be zero sum.

With finite resources, it is a zero sum. Muslims have had a free ride like no other minority. Hoping that India truly becomes secular soon.

 

[Raw deal]

To redress the historical wounds of one community you inflict wounds on another? It does not have to be zero sum.

One babri masjid doesn't hold much significance for Muslims, but that particular temple holds so much importance for Hindus.

 

[tempus123]

I am sorry but medical care should be and is always more important than any religion will ever be.
Let me see your Allahs and Rams, Mullahs and Pandits cure cancer or AIDS.

Nitpicking over which religion is greater while ignoring far more important issues like education, healthcare and unemployment is the biggest sign of idiocy in our part of the world.

Why not demolish cricket stadiums and build hospitals there ?

 

[tempus123]

Let us demolish all cricket, hockey, football stadiums, all theatres and multiplexes first and build schools and hospitals there.

Surely education and medical treatment is always more important than any form of entertainment. Those Sachins and Shahrukhs cannot cure cancer or AIDS.

Well said, [MENTION=136588]CricketCartoons[/MENTION]. I am becoming a fan of your frank views.

 

[tempus123]

.

Any day better than anarchists who use religion to create divisions in a stable society and hinder mankind's progress.

Are you advocating a religion free society ?

 

[battler]

First people need to look up the definition of secularism.
Secularism is where the state disassociates itself with all religions and no law is made according to religion.
Here we have different laws for Muslims, different for hindus and different for people of other religions.
India is not a secular state, it never was.

 

[eradicator]

First people need to look up the definition of secularism.
Secularism is where the state disassociates itself with all religions and no law is made according to religion.
Here we have different laws for Muslims, different for hindus and different for people of other religions.
India is not a secular state, it never was.

Correct and it will never be one in the future either.

 

[gani999]

Are you advocating a religion free society ?

I am advocating the use of religion only for private purposes. It should not be brought out on the streets or used to serve political ends.

 

[tempus123]

I am advocating the use of religion only for private purposes. It should not be brought out on the streets or used to serve political ends.

How is it possible ? Should muslims have kept their religion private and not protested against demolition of the mosque ?

 

[CricketCartoons]

I am advocating the use of religion only for private purposes. It should not be brought out on the streets or used to serve political ends.

Please get down from your ivory tower.

 

[gani999]

How is it possible ? Should muslims have kept their religion private and not protested against demolition of the mosque ?

If Muslims and Hindus had kept their religion private, there would not have been any demolition, nor would there have been any protest.

The problem happens when people use religion as a tool to secure their own political ends. Babar did that when he allegedly demolished the original Ram temple to drive home the point that he wanted to Islamize India, and the RSS did the same by demolishing the mosque to drive home their point that India was a 'Hindu Rashtra'.

Religion, hubris and political ambition make for a dangerous mixture.

 

[tempus123]

If Muslims and Hindus had kept their religion private, there would not have been any demolition, nor would there have been any protest.

The problem happens when people use religion as a tool to secure their own political ends. Babar did that when he allegedly demolished the original Ram temple to drive home the point that he wanted to Islamize India, and the RSS did the same by demolishing the mosque to drive home their point that India was a 'Hindu Rashtra'.

Religion, hubris and political ambition make for a dangerous mixture.

Yes, but where should the privatization start ? What is the boundary beyond which one should start keeping his religion private ?

 

[gani999]

Yes, but where should the privatization start ? What is the boundary beyond which one should start keeping his religion private ?

At the point where you realize that religion is something that is meant for your own spiritual and emotional betterment and as a way for you to realize God, not something that you thrust upon others or use as a tool to achieve your worldly or material ambitions.

 

[Fallen King]

Babri Masjid is not worth it and especially after reading the comments of this thread. Just because people claim for the nation doesn't make that one.

Knowing the history of Gujarat and the possibility of Modi coming back to power, Babri Masjid is not worth it. Indian Muslim needs to stay away from the controversial land that may trigger the inevitable riot and possibility life-threatening for the community, Allahu Alim!.

Bumping old thread, are we?

I don't remember commenting on this, but oh my, my prediction turned out to be accurate.

 

[Abhilash93]

First people need to look up the definition of secularism.

Secularism is where the state disassociates itself with all religions and no law is made according to religion.

Here we have different laws for Muslims, different for hindus and different for people of other religions.

India is not a secular state, it never was.

This was a question in the Indian Civil Services examination a couple of years ago. "How is Indian concept of secularism different from the Western concept?"

https://www.quora.com/India/What-ar...ween-Indian-secularism-and-western-secularism

 

[CricketCartoons]

This was a question in the Indian Civil Services examination a couple of years ago. "How is Indian concept of secularism different from the Western concept?"

https://www.quora.com/India/What-ar...ween-Indian-secularism-and-western-secularism

Some western lackeys think that whatever the west defines is the true definition. But even the west is learning from the indian form of secularism and there is talk of providing different civil code to the communities. Indian secularism is the best.

 

[battler]

This was a question in the Indian Civil Services examination a couple of years ago. "How is Indian concept of secularism different from the Western concept?"

https://www.quora.com/India/What-ar...ween-Indian-secularism-and-western-secularism

There needs to be some consensus on the word secularism, otherwise any country would make any law and term it as secular according to their country.
Indian Secularism, Uk secularism, US secularism etc etc.
The word would become a joke.

 

[tempus123]

People who advocate religion free society first need to convince at least one follower of any religion to move away from it. If they can't do it to one person, how can they imagine an entire society becoming religion-free ?

 

[Abhilash93]

There needs to be some consensus on the word secularism, otherwise any country would make any law and term it as secular according to their country.
Indian Secularism, Uk secularism, US secularism etc etc.
The word would become a joke.

There can be multiple concepts of secularism just like there are different types of democratic governments (Westminster Parliamentary model in the UK,India,Pakistan & Presidential form of government in US or Presidential + PM model in South Korea) though the underlying principle is the same - democracy.

 

[CricketCartoons]

There can be multiple concepts of secularism just like there are different types of democratic governments (Westminster Parliamentary model in the UK,India,Pakistan & Presidential form of government in US or Presidential + PM model in South Korea) though the underlying principle is the same - democracy.

If by democracy one means majoritarianism then it is incompatible with secularism. Otherwise if democracy means standing for the democratic ideals like liberty and equality, then secularism and democracy go hand in hand.

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Bad news for Advani and co.

Babri Masjid Case: BJP Seniors Like LK Advani To Be Tried For Conspiracy

New Delhi: LK Advani and other top leaders of the BJP including union minister Uma Bharti will be tried for criminal conspiracy in the demolition of the 16th-century Babri Masjid in Ayodhya, the Supreme Court ruled today.

Judges have also ordered daily hearings to ensure a verdict is delivered within two years.


Mr Advani, 89, was originally and along with party colleagues like Murli Manohar Joshi, charged with making inflammatory speeches that motivated lakhs of right-wing volunteers or karsevaks to pull down the mosque in 1992. That trial was being held in Rae Bareli.

Now, the BJP leaders, facing far more serious charges, will be tried in Lucknow, where, so far, a separate case is dealing with about 20 people accused of the actual demolition of the mosque. By combining the two trials, the judges want to ensure that a verdict is delivered within two years.

Kalyan Singh, who was Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh when the mosque was demolished, is currently the Governor of Rajasthan and cannot be prosecuted while in office. His trial will begin after his term ends, the Supreme Court ruled.

The CBI says that it has evidence that the BJP leaders, who made their speeches on a stage near the mosque on the day that it was razed, were part of the deadly plan to bring down the mosque. The agency says that Mr Advani and other BJP leaders met the night before the mosque was brought down and decided that it would be razed, which makes the demolition a pre-meditated, deliberate event.

Story Highlights
Supreme Court agrees with CBI, orders tougher charges for BJP leaders
LK Advani, BJP veterans were being tried for inflammatory speeches
Court orders daily hearings and sets 2-year-deadline for verdict
New Delhi: LK Advani and other top leaders of the BJP including union minister Uma Bharti will be tried for criminal conspiracy in the demolition of the 16th-century Babri Masjid in Ayodhya, the Supreme Court ruled today.

Judges have also ordered daily hearings to ensure a verdict is delivered within two years.


Mr Advani, 89, was originally and along with party colleagues like Murli Manohar Joshi, charged with making inflammatory speeches that motivated lakhs of right-wing volunteers or karsevaks to pull down the mosque in 1992. That trial was being held in Rae Bareli.

Now, the BJP leaders, facing far more serious charges, will be tried in Lucknow, where, so far, a separate case is dealing with about 20 people accused of the actual demolition of the mosque. By combining the two trials, the judges want to ensure that a verdict is delivered within two years.


The Babri Masjid demolition came after a movement led in part by LK Advani for the Ram temple
Kalyan Singh, who was Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh when the mosque was demolished, is currently the Governor of Rajasthan and cannot be prosecuted while in office. His trial will begin after his term ends, the Supreme Court ruled.

The CBI says that it has evidence that the BJP leaders, who made their speeches on a stage near the mosque on the day that it was razed, were part of the deadly plan to bring down the mosque. The agency says that Mr Advani and other BJP leaders met the night before the mosque was brought down and decided that it would be razed, which makes the demolition a pre-meditated, deliberate event.

In 2010, the Allahabad High Court disagreed with the CBI about criminal conspiracy charges for the BJP veterans, which meant that the leaders' case continued to be heard in Rae Bareli. The CBI had appealed against that decision in the top court.

The clubbing of the two cases in Lucknow has been opposed by lawyers for Mr Advani and his colleagues on the grounds that they involve different people as the accused. They also say that the trials are at different stages.

The demolition of the mosque came after a movement led in part by Mr Advani for a temple to be built on the same spot where the masjid was constructed by the Mughals. Many Hindus believe that the mosque was built over the birthplace of Lord Ram; they want a temple to be built there. The Supreme Court is deciding who the dispute site belongs to.

The razing of the Babri Masjid incited nationwide riots between Hindus and Muslims; around 2,000 people were killed.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/m.ndtv...se-supreme-court-1683165?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

 

[R0H1T]

Bad news for Advani and co.



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/m.ndtv...se-supreme-court-1683165?amp=1&akamai-rum=off

What a joke, these guys should've been punished way back, or acquitted if not found guilty, justice delayed is justice denied IMO.

 

[Muhammad10]

Babri Masjid case: CBI court to frame charges against LK Advani, Murli Manohar Joshi and Uma Bharati

NEW DELHI: A special CBI court in Lucknow will frame charges against senior BJP leaders LK Advani, Murli Manohar Joshi and Union Minister Uma Bharati for their alleged role in the Babri Masjid demolition in 1992.

The court will also frame charges against Sadhwi Ritambhara, BJP MP Vinay Katiyar and Vishwa Hindu Parishad leader Vishnu Hari Dalmia.

Special CBI judge SK Yadav had asked them to appear personally before the court on May 30, cautioning them that no further exemption would be allowed.

Before her court appearance Uma Bharti today said: "It (Babri demolition) was an open protest, as it was during the time of emergency. What conspiracy was there in it I don't know."

"It is the matter of God and in such a case I can only have expectations from him. Since I have taken part in it with devotion, I don't consider myself as a criminal," she said.

Uttar Pradesh Chief Minister Yogi Adityanath met LK Advani in Lucknow ahead of hearing today.

The verdict in this sensitive case will have major repercussions in the state and national politics.

In 2001, a CBI court had dropped the conspiracy charges against them and the Allahabad high court upheld the judgment in 2010.

But the Supreme Court on April 19 this year ordered prosecution of Advani, Joshi , Uma Bharti and other accused for criminal conspiracy in the 25-year-old case.

The apex court had asked the special court to conduct day-to-day hearing, frame fresh charges within a month, and wrap up the case within two years.

Calling the Allahabad High Court's February 12, 2001 verdict as "erroneous", the top court had called the destruction of the structure a "crime" which shook the "secular fabric of the Constitution".

Supreme Court had also criticised CBI for the delay of 25 years in the trial.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...nd-uma-bharati-today/articleshow/58906814.cms

 

[Gabbar Singh]

Ravi Shankar has asked Muslims to give up their “claims on Ayodhya as a goodwill gesture”. He's also stated that if the court rules against the Hindu community then there will be 'bloodshed' and 'India will turn into Syria'. Who made this joker the representative of the Ram Janmabhoomi movement?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">In his interview with India Today, Art of Living founder Sri Sri Ravi Shankar invoked the Syrian civil war to say that Muslims should 'give up' their claims on Ayodhya. <a href="https://twitter.com/PadmajaJoshi?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@PadmajaJoshi</a><a href="https://t.co/PH7xcBo6Q4">https://t.co/PH7xcBo6Q4</a></p>— India Today (@IndiaToday) <a href="https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/970541408409939968?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">5 March 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[TM Riddle]

Ravi Shankar is a clown. Before spouting this nonsense , how about him and his chelas answer for the waste they laid to Yamuna floodplains during one of their yearly stupid religious functions there. As if the poor river need any more bad news.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Ravi Shankar is a clown. Before spouting this nonsense , how about him and his chelas answer for the waste they laid to Yamuna floodplains during one of their yearly stupid religious functions there. As if the poor river need any more bad news.

Isnt he trying to get a peaceful settlement?

If a temple is ever built on this land, there will be tensions and even bloodshed which nobody wants. Also the precedent will be set, what will be torn down next?

 

[TM Riddle]

Isnt he trying to get a peaceful settlement?

If a temple is ever built on this land, there will be tensions and even bloodshed which nobody wants. Also the precedent will be set, what will be torn down next?

He's one of those fancy new age Baba types with hip demeanor and sophisticated persona. He's nothing more than a Charsi who has zero idea about the ground realities.
IMO the land should be cleared of any religious structure even if that means breaking down the temple or shrine (or whatever it is there). What's the point of having so many temples , We have plenty of them already in like every gulli nukkad.

 

[TM Riddle]

The great Lord Rama couldn't show any trust in her great (the actually great) wife Seeta. She committed no sin during her stay in Lanka after Raavan abducted her and kept her honour. But The great Lord Rama abandoned her just because a few losers in Ayodhya questioned her character. Seeta ji then left Ayodhya, gave birth to two children. Can you imagine the hardships of a single mother? Then later on The great Lord Rama gets to know about his two children and gets them back. Poor Seeta ji didn't wish to go back to the man who showed no trust in her and left this world. What a sad life! I don;t know about you, but i can't forgive the great lord Rama.

Right here the insight into minds of Indian burger kids if anyone's interested.

 

[KingKhanWC]

He's one of those fancy new age Baba types with hip demeanor and sophisticated persona. He's nothing more than a Charsi who has zero idea about the ground realities.
IMO the land should be cleared of any religious structure even if that means breaking down the temple or shrine (or whatever it is there). What's the point of having so many temples , We have plenty of them already in like every gulli nukkad.

Fair enough I dont really know who he is. I think it's wrong to knock down any religious building because of what may or may not have happened many years ago. But the Islamic faith teaches preservation of life is the most important and over rides pretty much everything else , so if the Indian Muslims are happy and it stops serious violence, leave the land unoccupied by anyone. But I dont think the hardliners will agree who want the temple to be built.

 

[Tusker]

Fair enough I dont really know who he is. I think it's wrong to knock down any religious building because of what may or may not have happened many years ago.

It has been conclusively proven using latest Scientific Archaeological methods that there existed a temple right below the Mosque. Islamic invaders Dismantling places of Idol worship was a very common practice.

But no surprise why the Muslim community in India continues to drag its feet and claim being victims.

But the Islamic faith teaches preservation of life is the most important and over rides pretty much everything else , so if the Indian Muslims are happy and it stops serious violence, leave the land unoccupied by anyone. But I dont think the hardliners will agree who want the temple to be built.

Sorry but thats just simply not true at all ... the amount of violence , death, destruction ,rape and pillage enacted by Muslims in the name of religion on a regular basis worldwide stands squarely against your claim.

 

[PakLFC]

It should be converted to a Temple if that's what it originally was. Indian Muslim's should agree to this.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It has been conclusively proven using latest Scientific Archaeological methods that there existed a temple right below the Mosque. Islamic invaders Dismantling places of Idol worship was a very common practice.

But no surprise why the Muslim community in India continues to drag its feet and claim being victims.

Babri dispute: There was no trace of Ram temple, revealed British accounts

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...revealed-british-accounts-117120500216_1.html

Sorry but thats just simply not true at all ... the amount of violence , death, destruction ,rape and pillage enacted by Muslims in the name of religion on a regular basis worldwide stands squarely against your claim.

This would be the view of Hindu extremists and Islamaphobes , nothing more to it.

 

[PakLFC]

Why does the court not announce the verdict now? Seems as if they are terrified of coming to a decision as it will upset one side for sure. No one will agree to the disputed territory being converted to a library or something mutually beneficial. It's the likes of Asaduddin Owaisi who keep running their mouths at every opportunity. No matter what the decision will be followed by great unrest.

 

[Romali_rotti]

This would be the view of Hindu extremists and Islamaphobes , nothing more to it.

Yeah of course, muslims preserving the statue of Buddha in Afghanistan:

Next time Lad just:, instead of making a fool out of yourself on an ongoing basis

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yeah of course, muslims preserving the statue of Buddha in Afghanistan:

Next time Lad just:, instead of making a fool out of yourself on an ongoing basis

lol It was the Taliban who do not represent Muslims. But it seems you do not know the difference between a statue and a place of worship used by thousands of people. I guess being a hardline BJP follower, you want the temple which didn't exist to be built again? Maybe you will lay the second brick after Modi?

 

[Romali_rotti]

lol It was the Taliban who do not represent Muslims.

OHHHHh Right, Taliban is not muslim anymore ? .... This guy lol,

 

[English August]

But it seems you do not know the difference between a statue and a place of worship used by thousands of people.

Place of worship used by thousands of people? You really should refrain from commenting on topics you know nothing about.

Babri masjid wasn't in use for more than 40 years before the events of 1992.

 

[Tusker]

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...revealed-british-accounts-117120500216_1.html

that link wont open but here is the wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babri_Masjid

In 2003, by the order of an Indian Court, the Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) was asked to conduct a more indepth study and an excavation to ascertain the type of structure that was beneath the rubble.[46] The excavation was conducted from 12 March 2003 to 7 August 2003, resulting in 1360 discoveries. The ASI submitted its report to the Allahabad high court.[47]

The summary of the ASI report indicated the presence of a 10th-century temple under the mosque.[48][49] According to the ASI team, the human activity at the site dates back to the 13th century BCE. The next few layers date back to the Shunga period (second-first century BCE) and the Kushan period. During the early medieval period (11–12th century CE), a but short-lived huge structure of nearly 50 metres north-south orientation was constructed. On the remains of this structure, another massive structure was constructed: this structure had at least three structural phases and three successive floors attached with it. The report concluded that it was over the top of this construction that the disputed structure was constructed during the early 16th century.[50]

This would be the view of Hindu extremists and Islamaphobes , nothing more to it.

LoL ... lets see ... what was the Kaaba used for before it fell into Muslim hands ? How did Farsi fire worshippers get driven out of their lands and end up in India ? How did the Pandit populaton in Kashmir become nearly 0% ? On and on and on and on .... I could literally keep going for pages listing one shocking attrocity after another from Day 1 to now.

And Taliban aren't Muslim ehh ? Does OBL count ?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It should be converted to a Temple if that's what it originally was. Indian Muslim's should agree to this.

It's disputed that there was a temple there, that would be why the Indian Muslims haven't agreed to it.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...revealed-british-accounts-117120500216_1.html

Not that it's our business to tell them what to think, it's Modi's and his Hindutva battalions who must take this responsibility.