Bangladesh: Still cricket minnows?

[Markhor]

Correction to #639 - *than 2016

 

[Ummii]

Rotay hi rehna

 

[ManFan]

BD fans on the "minnow hole"

"Just when you think you're out, they pull you back in".

 

[Usman Chadda]

Losing 3-0 to Afghanistan of all teams should put Bangladesh fans' chest-thumping in perspective. Bangaldesh need to drop every senior bar Mahmadullah (maybe Mushfiqur Rahim if they dont have a decent keeper). Rubbish players who go missing consistently.

 

[Varun]

Losing 3-0 to Afghanistan of all teams should put Bangladesh fans' chest-thumping in perspective. Bangaldesh need to drop every senior bar Mahmadullah (maybe Mushfiqur Rahim if they dont have a decent keeper). Rubbish players who go missing consistently.

I was thinking they should try another sport altogether.

 

[ManFan]

I was thinking they should try another sport altogether.

They go into hiding when their team loses.

At least Pakistani and Indian fans bash theirs when a loss occurs.

 

[Usman Chadda]

I was thinking they should try another sport altogether.

Be prepared for one of the longest posts ever on PP, making one excuse after another.

 

[Mainul]

They go into hiding when their team loses.

At least Pakistani and Indian fans bash theirs when a loss occurs.

If you are a nonsense cricket fan then you will bash your own team after such an incredible entertaining game of cricket. We don't go into hiding man.Check out other threads.

 

[ManFan]

If you are a nonsense cricket fan then you will bash your own team after such an incredible entertaining game of cricket. We don't go into hiding man.Check out other threads.

You're emotional right now.

Take it from someone who went through the same ordeal on Sunday.

As Frozen said, "Let It Go!"

 

[world cup captain]

PP is a nightmare for Bangladeshi fans. Sure, their team isn't what they make it out to be but they continue to support it day in and day out. We as Pakistanis do it too. As a matter of fact, most Pakistanis hype up the India vs Pakistan match in the WC every time only to get demolished. Does that mean Pakistanis should stop hyping up the India match? No, but why should Bangladeshi fans stop supporting their team?

 

[Josh]

PP is a nightmare for Bangladeshi fans. Sure, their team isn't what they make it out to be but they continue to support it day in and day out. We as Pakistanis do it too. As a matter of fact, most Pakistanis hype up the India vs Pakistan match in the WC every time only to get demolished. Does that mean Pakistanis should stop hyping up the India match? No, but why should Bangladeshi fans stop supporting their team?

Supporting and hyping vs extremely over hyping. They make their players to be heroes which they aren't. India & Pakistan have long history and present performances to back these hypes at least.

 

[Usman Chadda]

PP is a nightmare for Bangladeshi fans. Sure, their team isn't what they make it out to be but they continue to support it day in and day out. We as Pakistanis do it too. As a matter of fact, most Pakistanis hype up the India vs Pakistan match in the WC every time only to get demolished. Does that mean Pakistanis should stop hyping up the India match? No, but why should Bangladeshi fans stop supporting their team?

Don't have any issues with them supporting the team. Its the misplaced arrogance thats hilarious.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

PP is a nightmare for Bangladeshi fans. Sure, their team isn't what they make it out to be but they continue to support it day in and day out. We as Pakistanis do it too. As a matter of fact, most Pakistanis hype up the India vs Pakistan match in the WC every time only to get demolished. Does that mean Pakistanis should stop hyping up the India match? No, but why should Bangladeshi fans stop supporting their team?

India and Pakistan have been top tier teams in both tests and ODIs since the 70s. Bangladesh team have always been mediocre except for a few years. They're back to square one again.

 

[Varun]

India and Pakistan have been top tier teams in both tests and ODIs since the 70s. Bangladesh team have always been mediocre except for a few years. They're back to square one again.

When is this mysterious period you refer to?

 

[Sachin136]

Don't have any issues with them supporting the team. Its the misplaced arrogance thats hilarious.

Bangladesh is one rank behind Pakistan in tests and ODIs, yet there are posts about this being a golden era for Pakistan and no one is calling is misplaced arrogance. A T20 series loss doesn't mean much.

 

[Sachin136]

When is this mysterious period you refer to?

The period when they humiliated our team?

 

[Joseph Gomes]

When is this mysterious period you refer to?

2015-2016 I guess? Also 2007 (beat Ind, SAF at WC), 2010 (New Zealand whitewash) and 2012 (Asia Cup)

 

[Varun]

The period when they humiliated our team?

They were abysmal even back then - and we went and beat them in Tests AND ODIs in a tour right after that World Cup.

Similarly, we didn't 'humiliate' the West Indies back in 1983 - it was an ODI where one won and the other lost.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Bangladesh is one rank behind Pakistan in tests and ODIs, yet there are posts about this being a golden era for Pakistan and no one is calling is misplaced arrogance. A T20 series loss doesn't mean much.

Whats the point difference Pakistan and Bangladesh? Also by your reckoning, Pakistan is as good an ODI team as Australia since both are neck and neck in terms of points. Perspective please.

 

[world cup captain]

Supporting and hyping vs extremely over hyping. They make their players to be heroes which they aren't. India & Pakistan have long history and present performances to back these hypes at least.

Don't have any issues with them supporting the team. Its the misplaced arrogance thats hilarious.

India and Pakistan have been top tier teams in both tests and ODIs since the 70s. Bangladesh team have always been mediocre except for a few years. They're back to square one again.

It frustrates me too but going ahead and trying to rip apart sensible posters is beyond my understanding. Yes, there are a few Bangladeshi posters who hype Bangladesh like they are the second coming of the 80's Windies; however, it's the sensible guys on the forum that take the hit.

 

[Sherlock]

Bangladesh is one rank behind Pakistan in tests and ODIs, yet there are posts about this being a golden era for Pakistan and no one is calling is misplaced arrogance. A T20 series loss doesn't mean much.

That was one thread that a fan wrote after getting excited over the CT win. The "golden era" you're writing about doesn't exist. No-one in their right mind thinks that way.

 

[troodon]

BD needs to find some bowlers. Even some mystery spinners who can be considered World Class.

Afg out of no where has pulled out 3 world Class spinners in Rashid, Mujeeb and Nabi. Even young Zahir Khan is also regarded as a great talent.

BD needs to find those above type of spinners if Fast bowlers are not possible.

In this day and age, you cannot get away with bowlers like Rubel, Jayed, Hider and Islam. Very average bowlers.

 

[gazza619]

BD needs to find some bowlers. Even some mystery spinners who can be considered World Class.

Afg out of no where has pulled out 3 world Class spinners in Rashid, Mujeeb and Nabi. Even young Zahir Khan is also regarded as a great talent.

BD needs to find those above type of spinners if Fast bowlers are not possible.

In this day and age, you cannot get away with bowlers like Rubel, Jayed, Hider and Islam. Very average bowlers.

Let me correct you, BD does not need to find bowlers or batsmen, they need to find the right attitude to play this beautiful game. Cut down on arrogance, silly nagin dances, lack of sportmenship etc. They could learn a thing or two from Pakistan.

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

Be prepared for one of the longest posts ever on PP, making one excuse after another.

Still waiting for that Essay

 

[moghul]

Bangladesh looks a different side home and away. Still they have quite a few quality players in ranks.

India's fault, they are not making them feel like home.

 

[Sherlock]

Let me say what I noticed with *some* Bangladeshi players, namely Sakib/Tamim. They seem less bothered about playing for their countries than they are for franchise cricket sides around the world. The sheer negative body language is eye-opening and worrying if I were a Bangladeshi supporter.

 

[Slim]

The Bangla players deserve a lot of flak for their poor performance. I feel bad for Bangla fans but like always its their own doing.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

BD needs to find some bowlers. Even some mystery spinners who can be considered World Class.

Afg out of no where has pulled out 3 world Class spinners in Rashid, Mujeeb and Nabi. Even young Zahir Khan is also regarded as a great talent.

BD needs to find those above type of spinners if Fast bowlers are not possible.

In this day and age, you cannot get away with bowlers like Rubel, Jayed, Hider and Islam. Very average bowlers.

Abu Haider actually bowled well on these totally spin friendly tracks.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

We must not forget that in the T20 format Afghanistan are ranked 8th in the world. They are a top side in T20 cricket. They could beat any side in the world including India.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

I was thinking they should try another sport altogether.

There's no other sport apart from cricket that Asians are good at. Soccer, basketball, ice hockey require too much athleticism for subcontinentals.

 

[LegendAli]

PP is a nightmare for Bangladeshi fans. Sure, their team isn't what they make it out to be but they continue to support it day in and day out. We as Pakistanis do it too. As a matter of fact, most Pakistanis hype up the India vs Pakistan match in the WC every time only to get demolished. Does that mean Pakistanis should stop hyping up the India match? No, but why should Bangladeshi fans stop supporting their team?

Dude have you not heard of household names in Wasim, Akhtar, Imran, Sachin, Kohli, Dhoni? This is all i'm going to say, think about what you just wrote.

Come on man.

 

[world cup captain]

Dude have you not heard of household names in Wasim, Akhtar, Imran, Sachin, Kohli, Dhoni? This is all i'm going to say, think about what you just wrote.

Come on man.

Pakistani fans are living off of old glory days which shows the level of desperation. We should acknowledge the fact that our team is no longer as good as it used to be. If we are to bully other fans, we need to develop a team which can consistently compete with the best and not roll over the way it did in NZ.

 

[world cup captain]

I'm curious to the reason why Bangladesh cannot string together a respectable mid ranking team. The population of Bangladesh is quite high and they seem to have a lot of passion for the game. Everything seems to indicate that it's possible so it makes me wonder why it hasn't happen. [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=136446]Mainul[/MENTION] [MENTION=136334]Shutdown Corner[/MENTION]

 

[switchshot]

BD just lost T20 games (which I don't consider real cricket) and people started bashing them once again. I really don't rate their loss to AFG in T20 much. AFG players are good for short format. If BD had played ODI, I am pretty sure BD would have won all 3 and same people who are bashing them now would tell, it's just Afganistan. BD has to win against big guns.

 

[RainMan_]

I was thinking they should try another sport altogether.

Perhaps u should better try to understand the simple fact that it's a pointless t20 format that greatly reduces the difference between two teams and anything can happen in this format. There is a reason why even a weak team like srilanka won a t20 series in a place like Australia, right?

 

[Varun]

Perhaps u should better try to understand the simple fact that it's a pointless t20 format that greatly reduces the difference between two teams and anything can happen in this format. There is a reason why even a weak team like srilanka won a t20 series in a place like Australia, right?

Sri Lanka and Australia are elite teams in cricket and one may win over the other any time.

Afghanistan are a newly hatched egg and have managed to swamp a supposedly estabished test playing team 3-0. Three. Zero.

They wouldn't have beaten anybody else by that margin in any part of the world.

 

[RainMan_]

They go into hiding when their team loses.

At least Pakistani and Indian fans bash theirs when a loss occurs.

Excuse me?

Hiding for what exactly? Is it for losing a series against Afghanistan in a pointless format like t20 that nobody cares about? Lol. We would've bashed our team if they got whitewashed by Afghanistan or Srilanka in Tests or ODIS. T20s r like filler episodes of a good series. It has no significance in the grand scheme of things.

Why do u think that the greatest cricket team of all time and 5 times odi world Cup Champion Australia still haven't won a single t20 world Cup?

 

[RainMan_]

Sri Lanka and Australia are elite teams in cricket and one may win over the other any time.

Afghanistan are a newly hatched egg and have managed to swamp a supposedly estabished test playing team 3-0. Three. Zero.

They wouldn't have beaten anybody else by that margin in any part of the world.

Even West indies was once the mightiest of all teams but now they reside below Bangladesh and I don't think I need to tell u where their cricket is heading towards, right.

T20 is an extremely unpredictable format where a match can be won by one or two players. But that's not the case with longer formats like tests or t20s. There is a reason why couple of teams that reside at the bottom of the test or odi ranking is enjoying the top spots in t20 ranking. This just further illustrates the point that the performance in this pointless format can never be taken as a benchmark to evaluate the status of a cricket nation.

Just because srilanka have somehow managed to win a t20 series against mighty Australia in Australia doesn't mean they r going through a golden period in their cricket, similarly just because Bangladesh have lost a pointless t20 series doesn't mean that their cricket is going downwards.

 

[RainMan_]

Bangladesh is one rank behind Pakistan in tests and ODIs, yet there are posts about this being a golden era for Pakistan and no one is calling is misplaced arrogance. A T20 series loss doesn't mean much.

Spot on. International T20s r totally pointless. Nobody takes this useless format seriously unless it's a t20 world Cup. The sole purpose of this format is that it gives all the other teams to try out new, untested players.

 

[Varun]

There is a reason why couple of teams that reside at the bottom of the test or odi ranking is enjoying the top spots in t20 ranking. This just further illustrates the point that the performance in this pointless format can never be taken as a benchmark to evaluate the status of a cricket nation.

It just so happens that Bangladesh are near the bottom of the test rankings as well.

 

[RainMan_]

India and Pakistan have been top tier teams in both tests and ODIs since the 70s. Bangladesh team have always been mediocre except for a few years. They're back to square one again.

India have been playing test cricket for close to hundred years now and for Pakistan its close to 70 years. How long have Bangladesh been playing test cricket? Do u even know that India took freakin 20 years to win their first ever test match, lol.

 

[Varun]

India have been playing test cricket for close to hundred years now and for Pakistan its close to 70 years. How long have Bangladesh been playing test cricket? Do u even know that India took freakin 20 years to win their first ever test match, lol.

How many tests have Bangladesh played in the last 18 years? Compared to India and Pakistan in the 18 years since their inception?

 

[saeed5646]

After asia cup 2018 no one in bd will take odi format seriously as worldcup is real format

 

[saeed5646]

India have been playing test cricket for close to hundred years now and for Pakistan its close to 70 years. How long have Bangladesh been playing test cricket? Do u even know that India took freakin 20 years to win their first ever test match, lol.

Have a some shame .india have won every single icc events and currently number one test team what have bd done apart from few cycle agharbati trophy?

 

[cricketindiafan]

In the last 3 years, BD have only beaten SL (4 times), Zimbabwe ( 2 times), and Pakistan, UAE, Oman and Netherlands once each in T20s.

Basically one good win vs a strong T20 team - Pakistan. Not good enough IMO. No wonder they were so hyper after reaching finals of Nidhas trophy.

 

[BaankeJi]

We must not forget that in the T20 format Afghanistan are ranked 8th in the world. They are a top side in T20 cricket. They could beat any side in the world including India.

Agree with this. The key thing to note is that they "can" beat top sides. But to do that they need some help from opposition as well e.g. dropped catches, out of form batsmen etc.
They cannot beat a top side that is on full song. But that doesn't happen often.

 

[BaankeJi]

In the last 3 years, BD have only beaten SL (4 times), Zimbabwe ( 2 times), and Pakistan, UAE, Oman and Netherlands once each in T20s.

Basically one good win vs a strong T20 team - Pakistan. Not good enough IMO. No wonder they were so hyper after reaching finals of Nidhas trophy.

That nagin dance gets to my nerves. Someone should tell them pointedly not to do it. It is not worthy of international players.

 

[RainMan_]

How many tests have Bangladesh played in the last 18 years? Compared to India and Pakistan in the 18 years since their inception?

Playing hundreds of matches won't make u superior in test cricket overnight. It obviously helps to gain necessary experience, but it's a small part in the whole process. The process of becoming good in this format requires a holistic approach and yes, time and having proper infrastructures is important factors in that approach. If Nepal plays hundred international test matches in next two years their team won't turn into a formidable one. For that to happen they will need some 20-25 years and need to build a proper cricket infrastructure.


When Bangladesh started playing test cricket, they didn't even have a proper first class structure. The current generation of Bangladeshi players r the result of a structure that was established only 15-20 years back and they r vastly superior than their previous generation of cricketers. In fact Bangladesh is one of the very few teams that has improved leaps and bounds within a very short period of time.


15/16 years is hardly that long. Frankly speaking, BD should be appreciated for the fact that they have laid down a proper cricketing infrastructure within this very short period and have managed to compete against teams that have been playing cricket for 80/90 years.

 

[RainMan_]

Have a some shame .india have won every single icc events and currently number one test team what have bd done apart from few cycle agharbati trophy?

Why r u getting agitated

I appreciate the fact that India have won multiple icc trophies but that doesn't change the fact that they have been playing this sport at an international level for close to hundred years.

Compared to that, BD haven't even crossed 20 years mark and already reached quarterfinal and semifinal of major icc tournaments, won test serieses outside Asia and have become a formidable side at home.

 

[Sidilicious]

Nothing brings the quibbling Indian and Pakistani fans together like Bangladesh.

The Nobel peace prize of resolving the Indo-Pak tension will go to a Bangladeshi, if not the Bangladesh Cricket Team.

 

[Varun]

Nothing brings the quibbling Indian and Pakistani fans together like Bangladesh.

The Nobel peace prize of resolving the Indo-Pak tension will go to a Bangladeshi, if not the Bangladesh Cricket Team.

Even the Sri Lankan crowd were cheering for us en masse in the Nidahas final weren't they?

It takes some skill to be the most hated team in spite of constantly being at the bottom of the rankings.

 

[saeed5646]

Why r u getting agitated

I appreciate the fact that India have won multiple icc trophies but that doesn't change the fact that they have been playing this sport at an international level for close to hundred years.

Compared to that, BD haven't even crossed 20 years mark and already reached quarterfinal and semifinal of major icc tournaments, won test serieses outside Asia and have become a formidable side at home.

Pretty rich coming from a guy from bd to telling me why am i agitated.

Just telling you fact about why should not laugh at india when you have nothing to defend but counting how many semi final you have reached in icc events even kenya does have reach semifinal but at the last only winning the title does matter not runnerup or semifinalist

 

[cricketindiafan]

India have been playing test cricket for close to hundred years now and for Pakistan its close to 70 years. How long have Bangladesh been playing test cricket? Do u even know that India took freakin 20 years to win their first ever test match, lol.

Not one fan in those 20 years had any delusions about India being a great team unlike most of the tiger fans who seem to think their team is the best ever team to have played cricket

BTW as those are different eras, comparing time frames alone is not correct. Let us look at number of tests teams took to win their first test and their record when they won their first test

Aus - won their first tests
England and Pakistan won their 2nd tests
WI 5 tests, 4 losses, 1 draw
SL 13 tests, 8 losses, 5 draws
SA 11 tests, 10 losses, 1 draw
India 20 tests, 11 losses, 9 draws
NZ 44 tests, 22 losses, 22 draws
BD 38 tests, 33 losses, 4 draws

If I was a BD fan, I would never ever mock other teams for their past record.

 

[saeed5646]

As usual Mamoon will make some valid criticisms before negating them with attention seeking hyperbole and exaggeration.


Two series, one whitewash victory followed by one whitewash defeat, is hardly a large enough sample to conclude whether we've built on the Champions Trophy or not. However, if you cannot see the improvement in fielding and bowling then we must be watching different teams. Look at the numbers. Under Azhar Ali's tenure as ODI captain, our bowling average was 39 and our economy rate was 5.66 RPO. Since Sarfraz Ahmed was appointed, the bowling average is 27 and the economy rate is down to 4.99 RPO. Our fielding has improved immeasurably in all formats - to the point where we're only behind South Africa and New Zealand in the percentage of Test catches taken, a stat I'd never thought I'd read in my lifetime.

I'd agree our batting remains our Achilles' heel and we lack the dynamism of other teams, though there are several players who've shown promise.


This is a patronising statement as if cricket matches are won out of thin air and involve no strategy or planning.

We had the best bowling figures during the middle overs from all the teams in the Champions Trophy, neutralising some of the best batting teams in the world in India, England and South Africa. We extracted the most reverse swing from flat, placid wickets in a tournament where there was little overcast weather during the latter stages. That doesn't happen by chance but due to sound tactics and selection which Sarfraz and Arthur deserve credit for.

I know you'll say bowling is our traditional strength - but I've just shown you the numbers which showed our bowling was SHOCKING in the ODI format before the tournament.


Since the start of 2012, New Zealand have only lost 3 out of 31 ODIs at home against Asian opposition. They've beaten Australia at home and were the runners-up at the last World Cup. They're a far more settled outfit whereas we're in the early stages of our development. Anyone expecting us to hammer NZ in their backyard were always going to be disappointed - and those predictions were a minority. A better barometer of our progress is when the likes of Australia and NZ tour the UAE later this year, and when we next visit them.


Again you make a valid criticism about our batting before negating it with rubbish. These sporting cliches pundits use like "bogey team" is nonsense - the winners of a cricket match beats their opponent because they had better tactics, selection and performance. Luck, flukes, momentum and all these buzzwords don't come into it especially in Test cricket where you must outperform the opposition session after session which we did at Lord's for 90% of the match in an era where home advantage is more pronounced than ever.

Remaining undefeated in the last four series against an England side with those 5-6 top players you speak of is not by chance. England had never lost the first Test match of a home summer starting in May since 1995 when they lost to West Indies - a record they maintained when they had worse teams than this one. They have only lost 4 home Test series since the 2001 Ashes. They may shell single Tests against the likes of SL and WI, but usually they beat these teams over the course of a series whereas we've toured TWICE and drawn - this time with a vastly inexperienced team.

Of course you "wouldn't look too much into the 1-1 draw with England" because it doesn't fit your narrative of a terminally declining team - if we had won then you'd have come up with another excuse ! You said we drew 2-2 last time because England missed Anderson, Stokes, favourable pitches, late summer conditions, Brexit etc etc and now you've come with another excuse about low confidence and bogey teams. How can people take such criticisms in good faith ?



Being the first Asian team to beat New Zealand in their backyard in a T20 series is an encouraging sign. I don't care about T20Is outside the World Cup but we've a far better chance of winning in 2020 than we did in 2020, and the progress made in the rankings reflect that, especially with the PSL now established which has given our youngsters a chance of learning from the best T20 players and performing in pressure situations.


We've already improved our domestic structure with the PSL, and there's no reason why we can't improve it further providing we use the proceeds wisely and employ the right people. Sethi for all his faults has established a good management team with Mickey Arthur and Inzamam, and re-establishing Pakistan as an international host will be a huge boon.

Very good post

 

[RainMan_]

Pretty rich coming from a guy from bd to telling me why am i agitated.

Just telling you fact about why should not laugh at india when you have nothing to defend but counting how many semi final you have reached in icc events even kenya does have reach semifinal but at the last only winning the title does matter not runnerup or semifinalist

Why would u call it rich even if it came from a BD supporter. I m still interested to know the reason behind ur agitation. Does blatant truth make u uncomfortable?

I m not interested to laugh at anybody, just pointing out the facts. So what about Kenya? Do u not consider it as an achievement? If not then I would suggest u to give a hard thought on the process that u use to rationalise things.

Even South Africa haven't won a single major ICC tournament. The best they managed to achieve was getting the title of WC semifinalist. So what? They r still considered as the top dog in World cricket and goes to every ICC tournament as favourites. Going to quarterfinal and semifinal of major icc tournaments is a pretty damn good achievement, especially for a new team like Bangladesh who have been playing international cricket for just over 15 years.

 

[Adijazz1706]

<b>The belief that Pakistan cricket is heading in the right direction is a myth.

The Champions Trophy success (won't use the buzzword here) was a one-off. It was an isolated success much like West Indies' Champions Trophy triumph in 2004 or England winning the World T20 in 2010. </b>

WI won it again in 2016. They are a very good T20 team. They beat India left and right in T20s. Their T20 players are most wanted in leagues all over the world. England have transformed their limited overs cricket in this decade. They are ranked #1 in ODIs and their limited overs team is full of destructive players. Those victories were no isolated instances as you think.



<b>We did not build towards it and neither have we managed to build on it. We entered the tournament as a struggling side and we left the tournament as a struggling side, who happened to win three successive games (we are better than Sri Lanka, hence three and not four) against three superior sides.

All the talk of a new era etc. was squashed when New Zealand demolished us 5-0. It was a much needed reality check because some of our heads were in the clouds, expecting the Champions Trophy winners to beat any ODI team anywhere except for maybe England in England, as if we were the best ODI team in the world. </b>

Same SL who chased down 300+ target against India in their previous match for the loss of 1 wicket and that too was a run-out? We did not leave the tournament as a struggling side. We absolutely manhandled England and India, the two best teams of the tournament. We went on to whitewash SL which was not likely an year ago no matter how weak they are. We did lose to NZ but NZ in NZ is a tough team to beat and are comfortably better than us. We are not there but we are getting there with the coming of better new players like Fakhar, Babar, Haris, Talat, Shadab, Hassan, etc.



<b>Teams like India, England, Australia and South Africa will still comfortably beat us in an ODI series. So what improvement are we talking about? Perhaps we can agree that the likes of Shadab, Hasan, Fakhar etc. are better than the players they have replaced, but the improvement is not considerable enough to change our fortunes against the top teams.

Nonetheless, the proof lies in the pudding. Post-Champions Trophy, we miserably failed our only major test in ODIs. A look at the pre-series predictions thread for the New Zealand series shows how much our fans overrated this mediocre team, just because they got lucky in three games against better opposition. </b>

I do not think anybody claims that Pakistan are better than the teams you mentioned. You are just putting words in other people's mouths. What most of the posters say is that our limited overs cricket has definitely improved. We will not magically start beating them overnight but we are moving in the right direction. We are getting rid of TTFs. We are posting better totals as opposed to those 240-250 scores under Misbah and Afridi.



<b>As far as Test cricket is concerned, our batting is utter rubbish. Comfortably one of the worst batting units in the world, and I won't look too much into the 1-1 draw in England because (a) England are very short on confidence and form at the moment and (b) we appear to be their bogey team. </b>


Happens to all teams. Test team is going through a rough phase because two experienced and performing batsmen recently retired. At least be consistent. Before the series you claimed that England were far better "comfortably" in those conditions. After Lord's test, you switched to "this is the worst English team I have seen since the 90s". After Headingly test, they have a strong core but they were short on confidence. You also fail to give benefit of doubt to Pakistan that they drew the series without their only match winner bowler, Yasir. Babar was not available in the second test.



<b>Even in 2010, when we toured England with one of our weakest batting lineups ever, we nearly managed a 2-2 draw before a once in a lifetime knock by Broad and the spot-fixing changed the course of the Lord's Test.

Beating England is not a big deal these days. They have 5-6 top players but it is not working for them at the moment; they probably need new direction and leadership. </b>


When India beat England, I hope it will not become a big deal all of a sudden. Why is it Pakistan's problem, anyways? They can only perform against the English team that was presented to them. Your argument has no leg because England were doing far better under Cook and Pakistan still drew a series. BTW, I noticed how cleverly you jumped from 2010 to 2018 skipping 2016.




<b>As far as the T20 ranking is concerned, it is a complete farce. Our flimsy number one ranking is built on bashing weak teams. Since 2016, we have only played 4 T20 matches against credible opposition (1 England, 3 New Zealand).

Granted that we won four of those games, but unless we get to play a considerable number of games against the likes of India, Australia, South Africa and England, we cannot say that we deserve to be ranked number one in T20s.

If there is a WT20 today, how confident are people that we will be heavy favorites to lift the trophy? </b>

You can only perform against what is in front of you. We dominated weaker teams and we beat two very strong teams at their home. To be #1, you do not have to beat every team in the world in all possible conditions. That's just ridiculous and no team barring an ATG WI or Aussie team will be able to do it. We will be one of the favorites to lift the trophy if there is a WT20 today because our T20 bowling is absolutely top class and our batting has consistently posted 170+ scores in T20s.



<b>Those who are comparing the records of Pakistan and Bangladesh over the last two-three years to prove that Pakistan is going north and Bangladesh are going south are missing the point - it doesn't tell the story.

I prefer to look at the bigger picture because we cannot directly compare the results of an established team with 65 years of cricketing heritage to an emerging side that has been around for less than 20 years.

Is the gap between Pakistan and Bangladesh today as big as the gap between Pakistan and Bangladesh 10-15 years ago? Clearly no. Some people would also argue that Bangladesh has closed the gap between themselves and all teams, but the difference between us and the other teams is that the last 10-15 has been one of our darkest periods in history. </b>

With time, minnow teams will enter into non-minnow territory. What is the accomplishment in that? That is just natural progression. Why just Pakistan? Bangladesh have closed the gap with other teams too using the same logic. They have beaten NZ several times. It does not mean NZ cricket is going South. They are still to win a tournament (even at home in any format) or at least draw a test overseas. The only time they had a chance in SA, their best player chickened out and they gave the most one sided away tour in recent history.


<b>Apart from Younis, there is a not single Pakistani cricket who is a certainty for an all-time Pakistan XI, having made his debut in this millennium. Pakistan cricket is heading towards the dumps and a few wins here and there are not enough to arrest our decline. </b>

90s team had several cricketers who will walk into all time Pakistan XI. How much did they accomplish as a team? They lost to Zimbabwe at home! With a mediocre team, Pakistan have managed to win WT20, CT, an ODI series each in India and SA. They reached #1 test ranking. Besides, Yasir has a valid shot to make all time Pakistan XI. How many Australian players who debuted in this century will make their all time team? This is a weak argument. All you need is a balanced team in which every individual contributes.


<b>Bangladesh have a better structure in place and there is no reason why they cannot surpass Pakistan in due time. As far as Afghanistan is concerned, they have a long, long way to go yet, but they too can surpass Pakistan as long as they have India's support.

India is the powerhouse of cricket and hold the game by the balls. They dictate where the game is heading, and with access to their world class facilities and the IPL, Afghanistan can rise rapidly.</b>

England have the best facilities and infrastrucure available. They must be dominating the game. Do they? SA have huge problems going on yet they still beat both Australia and India. Facilities alone do not make you a world class team. When Bangladesh surpass Pakistan then write an essay on it. For now, they are behind and so are Afghanistan.

Forget Bangladesh and Afghanistan. With such a world class team, facilities, IPL, etc. why have India failed to win 2015 WC, WT20, CT, and SA test series? Why have they failed to produce a single world class fast bowler since IPL's inception who can walk into their all time India XI? How many players who are product of IPL will walk into all time Indian XI?

This post deserves Post of the century, forget POTW! As comprehensive as the CT final

 

[RainMan_]

Not one fan in those 20 years had any delusions about India being a great team unlike most of the tiger fans who seem to think their team is the best ever team to have played cricket

BTW as those are different eras, comparing time frames alone is not correct. Let us look at number of tests teams took to win their first test and their record when they won their first test

Aus - won their first tests
England and Pakistan won their 2nd tests
WI 5 tests, 4 losses, 1 draw
SL 13 tests, 8 losses, 5 draws
SA 11 tests, 10 losses, 1 draw
India 20 tests, 11 losses, 9 draws
NZ 44 tests, 22 losses, 22 draws
BD 38 tests, 33 losses, 4 draws

If I was a BD fan, I would never ever mock other teams for their past record.

Where did u get this ridiculous idea that BD fans consider their team to be the best team to ever play the game of cricket. BD fans r extremely realistic about their team and consider their team as something that's improving at a fast speed with every passing year.

Why r u bringing in number of tests? It has little significance with regards to the development of a cricket nation. A nation needs time to build proper cricket infrastructure, cricket culture to churn out good quality players. U can't produce quality players out of thin air or just by playing more matches. At first u need to make proper investment to see the result.


As I said in one of my precious posts if Nepal plays 100 tests in next two years it won't bring any significant change to their team. If they really want to emerge as a good cricket playing nation they need at least 25/30 years and need to build proper infrastructure.


If tomorrow Nepal is given the test status and Ireland plays against them, Ireland will obviously win. But will that mean anything? Absolutely not. When Bangladesh debuted as a a test team it was one of the toughest of cricket era and all the other teams were filled with quality players and had years of playing experience. Its like asking a kindergarten student to compete against class 9/10 student and win. Obviously BD had to play a lot if matches to win against these teams who had years of experience under their belt.

 

[cricketindiafan]

Where did u get this ridiculous idea that BD fans consider their team to be the best team to ever play the game of cricket. BD fans r extremely realistic about their team and consider their team as something that's improving at a fast speed with every passing year.

Why r u bringing in number of tests? It has little significance with regards to the development of a cricket nation. A nation needs time to build proper cricket infrastructure, cricket culture to churn out good quality players. U can't produce quality players out of thin air or just by playing more matches. At first u need to make proper investment to see the result.


As I said in one of my precious posts if Nepal plays 100 tests in next two years it won't bring any significant change to their team. If they really want to emerge as a good cricket playing nation they need at least 25/30 years and need to build proper infrastructure.


If tomorrow Nepal is given the test status and Ireland plays against them, Ireland will obviously win. But will that mean anything? Absolutely not. When Bangladesh debuted as a a test team it was one of the toughest of cricket era and all the other teams were filled with quality players and had years of playing experience. Its like asking a kindergarten student to compete against class 9/10 student and win. Obviously BD had to play a lot if matches to win against these teams who had years of experience under their belt.

And that was obviously going so well under a colonial power in the 1930s and 40s India, right?

 

[Bhaijaan]

Bangladesh are terrible but as I've always said it's their bowlers which is the biggest weakness.

I cant see them producing 90mph bowlers, perhaps once in a blue moon. They also can't produce big strong batsmen for the shorter formats.

This may sound strange but they should concentrate on test cricket, they could improve in this format.

Bro you seem to have an obsession with size. India is one of the best teams and they dont have big size players and 90 mph bowlers either.

In fact the best bataman in that Bangladesh team is that tiny wicket keeper Mushfiqur.

Afghanistan didnt need size and speed to beat then either. Rashid is one of the many little guys in that Afghan team.

 

[hadi123]

<b>The belief that Pakistan cricket is heading in the right direction is a myth.

The Champions Trophy success (won't use the buzzword here) was a one-off. It was an isolated success much like West Indies' Champions Trophy triumph in 2004 or England winning the World T20 in 2010. </b>

WI won it again in 2016. They are a very good T20 team. They beat India left and right in T20s. Their T20 players are most wanted in leagues all over the world. England have transformed their limited overs cricket in this decade. They are ranked #1 in ODIs and their limited overs team is full of destructive players. Those victories were no isolated instances as you think.



<b>We did not build towards it and neither have we managed to build on it. We entered the tournament as a struggling side and we left the tournament as a struggling side, who happened to win three successive games (we are better than Sri Lanka, hence three and not four) against three superior sides.

All the talk of a new era etc. was squashed when New Zealand demolished us 5-0. It was a much needed reality check because some of our heads were in the clouds, expecting the Champions Trophy winners to beat any ODI team anywhere except for maybe England in England, as if we were the best ODI team in the world. </b>

Same SL who chased down 300+ target against India in their previous match for the loss of 1 wicket and that too was a run-out? We did not leave the tournament as a struggling side. We absolutely manhandled England and India, the two best teams of the tournament. We went on to whitewash SL which was not likely an year ago no matter how weak they are. We did lose to NZ but NZ in NZ is a tough team to beat and are comfortably better than us. We are not there but we are getting there with the coming of better new players like Fakhar, Babar, Haris, Talat, Shadab, Hassan, etc.



<b>Teams like India, England, Australia and South Africa will still comfortably beat us in an ODI series. So what improvement are we talking about? Perhaps we can agree that the likes of Shadab, Hasan, Fakhar etc. are better than the players they have replaced, but the improvement is not considerable enough to change our fortunes against the top teams.

Nonetheless, the proof lies in the pudding. Post-Champions Trophy, we miserably failed our only major test in ODIs. A look at the pre-series predictions thread for the New Zealand series shows how much our fans overrated this mediocre team, just because they got lucky in three games against better opposition. </b>

I do not think anybody claims that Pakistan are better than the teams you mentioned. You are just putting words in other people's mouths. What most of the posters say is that our limited overs cricket has definitely improved. We will not magically start beating them overnight but we are moving in the right direction. We are getting rid of TTFs. We are posting better totals as opposed to those 240-250 scores under Misbah and Afridi.



<b>As far as Test cricket is concerned, our batting is utter rubbish. Comfortably one of the worst batting units in the world, and I won't look too much into the 1-1 draw in England because (a) England are very short on confidence and form at the moment and (b) we appear to be their bogey team. </b>


Happens to all teams. Test team is going through a rough phase because two experienced and performing batsmen recently retired. At least be consistent. Before the series you claimed that England were far better "comfortably" in those conditions. After Lord's test, you switched to "this is the worst English team I have seen since the 90s". After Headingly test, they have a strong core but they were short on confidence. You also fail to give benefit of doubt to Pakistan that they drew the series without their only match winner bowler, Yasir. Babar was not available in the second test.



<b>Even in 2010, when we toured England with one of our weakest batting lineups ever, we nearly managed a 2-2 draw before a once in a lifetime knock by Broad and the spot-fixing changed the course of the Lord's Test.

Beating England is not a big deal these days. They have 5-6 top players but it is not working for them at the moment; they probably need new direction and leadership. </b>


When India beat England, I hope it will not become a big deal all of a sudden. Why is it Pakistan's problem, anyways? They can only perform against the English team that was presented to them. Your argument has no leg because England were doing far better under Cook and Pakistan still drew a series. BTW, I noticed how cleverly you jumped from 2010 to 2018 skipping 2016.




<b>As far as the T20 ranking is concerned, it is a complete farce. Our flimsy number one ranking is built on bashing weak teams. Since 2016, we have only played 4 T20 matches against credible opposition (1 England, 3 New Zealand).

Granted that we won four of those games, but unless we get to play a considerable number of games against the likes of India, Australia, South Africa and England, we cannot say that we deserve to be ranked number one in T20s.

If there is a WT20 today, how confident are people that we will be heavy favorites to lift the trophy? </b>

You can only perform against what is in front of you. We dominated weaker teams and we beat two very strong teams at their home. To be #1, you do not have to beat every team in the world in all possible conditions. That's just ridiculous and no team barring an ATG WI or Aussie team will be able to do it. We will be one of the favorites to lift the trophy if there is a WT20 today because our T20 bowling is absolutely top class and our batting has consistently posted 170+ scores in T20s.



<b>Those who are comparing the records of Pakistan and Bangladesh over the last two-three years to prove that Pakistan is going north and Bangladesh are going south are missing the point - it doesn't tell the story.

I prefer to look at the bigger picture because we cannot directly compare the results of an established team with 65 years of cricketing heritage to an emerging side that has been around for less than 20 years.

Is the gap between Pakistan and Bangladesh today as big as the gap between Pakistan and Bangladesh 10-15 years ago? Clearly no. Some people would also argue that Bangladesh has closed the gap between themselves and all teams, but the difference between us and the other teams is that the last 10-15 has been one of our darkest periods in history. </b>

With time, minnow teams will enter into non-minnow territory. What is the accomplishment in that? That is just natural progression. Why just Pakistan? Bangladesh have closed the gap with other teams too using the same logic. They have beaten NZ several times. It does not mean NZ cricket is going South. They are still to win a tournament (even at home in any format) or at least draw a test overseas. The only time they had a chance in SA, their best player chickened out and they gave the most one sided away tour in recent history.


<b>Apart from Younis, there is a not single Pakistani cricket who is a certainty for an all-time Pakistan XI, having made his debut in this millennium. Pakistan cricket is heading towards the dumps and a few wins here and there are not enough to arrest our decline. </b>

90s team had several cricketers who will walk into all time Pakistan XI. How much did they accomplish as a team? They lost to Zimbabwe at home! With a mediocre team, Pakistan have managed to win WT20, CT, an ODI series each in India and SA. They reached #1 test ranking. Besides, Yasir has a valid shot to make all time Pakistan XI. How many Australian players who debuted in this century will make their all time team? This is a weak argument. All you need is a balanced team in which every individual contributes.


<b>Bangladesh have a better structure in place and there is no reason why they cannot surpass Pakistan in due time. As far as Afghanistan is concerned, they have a long, long way to go yet, but they too can surpass Pakistan as long as they have India's support.

India is the powerhouse of cricket and hold the game by the balls. They dictate where the game is heading, and with access to their world class facilities and the IPL, Afghanistan can rise rapidly.</b>

England have the best facilities and infrastrucure available. They must be dominating the game. Do they? SA have huge problems going on yet they still beat both Australia and India. Facilities alone do not make you a world class team. When Bangladesh surpass Pakistan then write an essay on it. For now, they are behind and so are Afghanistan.

Forget Bangladesh and Afghanistan. With such a world class team, facilities, IPL, etc. why have India failed to win 2015 WC, WT20, CT, and SA test series? Why have they failed to produce a single world class fast bowler since IPL's inception who can walk into their all time India XI? How many players who are product of IPL will walk into all time Indian XI?

Really good post. You've analyzed really well and I agree with your points. But regarding the WI thing, he was referring to the 2004 Champions Trophy which was ODI's, not the World T20s. And SL won that match by like 7 wickets, not 9. Despite that, you make a really good point and I agree with basically everything.

Also great post by [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] as well, agree with your points too bro.

 

[Mamoon]

WI won it again in 2016. They are a very good T20 team. They beat India left and right in T20s. Their T20 players are most wanted in leagues all over the world. England have transformed their limited overs cricket in this decade. They are ranked #1 in ODIs and their limited overs team is full of destructive players. Those victories were no isolated instances as you think.

What do you mean by "West Indies won it again in 2016"? You are mixing up the Champions Trophy and the World T20. The 2004 Champions Trophy was West Indies' one and only triumph in the tournament.

Much like Pakistan in 2017, they entered and left the tournament a mediocre side, who happened to have a good run in the tournament.

As far as T20s are concerned, they have produced some fantastic T20 cricketers in the last few years. A full strength West Indies team from 2012 to 2016 was a very dangerous T20 team, especially on flat wickets. The generation of Gayle, Pollard, Bravo, Russell, Sammy, Narine, Badree, Samuels etc. were excellent T20 players.

They have underachieved in bilateral series because the slow Caribbean pitches do not suit their hitters, and quite often they do not get to play their full-strength team due to multiple reasons.

A full-strength West Indies T20 team also beat the living daylights out of Pakistan in the 2014 WT20, taking Ajmal to the cleaners.

Yes a weakened West Indies T20 side - the one that we have beaten a few thousand times over the last two years - also managed to win a couple of games against India, but they were down to brilliant individual performance by Evin Lewis.

Individual brilliance can happen any time against any opposition. The so-calledb best bowling attack in the world that won us the Champions Trophy in June 2017 could not defend 310 against West Indies in an ODI in May 2017, thanks to a brilliant innings by Jason Mohamed.

The same attack was taken to the cleaners by Grandhomme of all players in the fourth ODI in New Zealand earlier this year, snatching a win from the jaws of defeat.

England World T20 triumph in 2010 was isolated. They were an average Limited Overs team at that point, and remained so till the 2015 World Cup after which they transformed their Limited Overs cricket.

Same SL who chased down 300+ target against India in their previous match for the loss of 1 wicket and that too was a run-out? We did not leave the tournament as a struggling side. We absolutely manhandled England and India, the two best teams of the tournament. We went on to whitewash SL which was not likely an year ago no matter how weak they are. We did lose to NZ but NZ in NZ is a tough team to beat and are comfortably better than us. We are not there but we are getting there with the coming of better new players like Fakhar, Babar, Haris, Talat, Shadab, Hassan, etc.

Just because Sri Lanka beat India in a game or two does not change the fact that they are a mediocre side. They couldn't stop losing last year and were bashed by pretty much every team they came across.

They couldn't even win a series against the "will forever be minnows" Bangladesh. I love how you are trying to make Sri Lanka look like a quality side just to add some prestige to the 5-0 whitewash that we dished out in October last year.

Yes New Zealand in New Zealand is a tough time, but the way we surrendered 5-0 just a few months after winning the Champions Trophy put our triumph in perspective. As far as the notion that we are getting there is concerned, that is another myth - you cannot be a top quality Limited Overs team in this era without having a top class batting unit, and our batting unit is mediocre.

Babar is prolific but he starts slow and lacks impact - he also cannot switch gears and hit big shots. Haris is a good player, but he is a lost cause. He is nearly 29, and is as raw as a 20 year old. He has no temperament to play long innings, and by the time he acquires the temperament, he will be in his 30s.

He is going to go down as a wasted talent. He might have been some player had he played regularly post the 2011 World Cup, but injuries + negligence of the selectors have cost him what could have been a very fine career.

The likes of Fakhar etc. are an improvement on what he had, but he is still a hit and miss player. The current batting lineup is better than what we had in the last few years, but it is still not good enough to beat the likes of Australia, India, England, South Africa and New Zealand over a series, as the tour of New Zealand demonstrated.

The chest-thumping after that reality check really does surprise me.

I do not think anybody claims that Pakistan are better than the teams you mentioned. You are just putting words in other people's mouths. What most of the posters say is that our limited overs cricket has definitely improved. We will not magically start beating them overnight but we are moving in the right direction. We are getting rid of TTFs. We are posting better totals as opposed to those 240-250 scores under Misbah and Afridi.

I am not putting words in mouths; I am actually quoting what you said. I clearly remember you stating in a thread before the New Zealand series that only England in England and Australia in Australia (?) can beat this team. I don't remember the thread or the exact words, otherwise I would have quoted your post here.

However, I do not want to pick on you individually, because if we go back to the post Champions Trophy and pre New Zealand tour period, the forum was littered with posts on how we are the best ODI team in the world now and will beat any team in our way because of the Champions Trophy momentum and all that crap.

We might be moving in the right direction, but other teams are not standing still. They will also improve with time, with perhaps the exception of South Africa, and we need to do something special to close the gap. I don't think we have the capability to do that. The quality of batsmen coming through, as highlighted by the PSL, is simply not up to the mark.

Happens to all teams. Test team is going through a rough phase because two experienced and performing batsmen recently retired. At least be consistent. Before the series you claimed that England were far better "comfortably" in those conditions. After Lord's test, you switched to "this is the worst English team I have seen since the 90s". After Headingly test, they have a strong core but they were short on confidence. You also fail to give benefit of doubt to Pakistan that they drew the series without their only match winner bowler, Yasir. Babar was not available in the second test.

This English team is potentially very good but they have played very poor cricket in the last few months or so. They are at their lowest ebb since the late 90's, and it is disappointing because they have the players to do a lot better. I have given Pakistan credit for the win at Lord's and repeatedly stated that it wasn't a fluke.

Yasir is our best bowler, but we did not miss him because he is poor in conditions that do not offer much for spinners, and he is nowhere near Shadab as far as batting is concerned, so his injury was actually a blessing in disguise. Shadab brings more value to the team unless their is a lot of assistance in the pitch for the spinners.

As far as Babar is concerned, he is a nothing Test batsman at this point, and his absence cannot be excused for the capitulation at Leeds. He played well at Lord's, but he has failed in 90% of his Test innings so far and there is nothing to suggest that he has turned a corner yet. For all we know, he might have been dismissed for a pair.

He has a long way to go before his absence can be used to justify the team losing. For now, he is a poor Test batsman. I absolutely agree that he will eventually come good, but at the moment, he is not there.

When India beat England, I hope it will not become a big deal all of a sudden. Why is it Pakistan's problem, anyways? They can only perform against the English team that was presented to them. Your argument has no leg because England were doing far better under Cook and Pakistan still drew a series. BTW, I noticed how cleverly you jumped from 2010 to 2018 skipping 2016.

It will not be a big deal if India beats England, because India is the best Test team in the world at the moment and the rightful holders of the Mace. However, England tends to raise their game against them and it is a long series. Moreover, a lot of careers will be on the line and I expect England to come out hard against them. They have the players to beat any side if they click, and a narrow series win for England would not surprise me.

I did not skip 2016 - I cited the 2010 series to show that we have had the wood over England throughout this decade, even when we toured them in 2010 in difficult conditions with a very poor batting lineup.

Pakistan have lost to worst teams than England and England have beaten better teams than Pakistan. It is clear that we tend to raise our game against them.

You can only perform against what is in front of you. We dominated weaker teams and we beat two very strong teams at their home. To be #1, you do not have to beat every team in the world in all possible conditions. That's just ridiculous and no team barring an ATG WI or Aussie team will be able to do it. We will be one of the favorites to lift the trophy if there is a WT20 today because our T20 bowling is absolutely top class and our batting has consistently posted 170+ scores in T20s.

I never said that to be number one, you have to beat teams in all conditions. However, you do not beat the majority - if not all - teams to prove your dominance. I have no issues with India being ranked number one in Tests even though they haven't won in Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and England, and that is because they have beaten all these teams at home.

I would happily call Pakistan the number one T20 team if they beat all of the aforementioned sides in a series anywhere in the world. However, becoming the number one based on beating poor teams including some World XI charity is nonsense.

Our number one ranking is a complete joke and shows the flaw in ICC's ranking system. Our 180+ scores have been against a poor Sri Lanka side and the pint-sized New Zealand grounds. We have a mediocre T20 batting lineup and lack genuine strikers. If there is a World T20 tomorrow, we are likely to suffer the same fate as the last three editions.



Those who are comparing the records of Pakistan and Bangladesh over the last two-three years to prove that Pakistan is going north and Bangladesh are going south are missing the point - it doesn't tell the story.

I prefer to look at the bigger picture because we cannot directly compare the results of an established team with 65 years of cricketing heritage to an emerging side that has been around for less than 20 years.

Is the gap between Pakistan and Bangladesh today as big as the gap between Pakistan and Bangladesh 10-15 years ago? Clearly no. Some people would also argue that Bangladesh has closed the gap between themselves and all teams, but the difference between us and the other teams is that the last 10-15 has been one of our darkest periods in history.

With time, minnow teams will enter into non-minnow territory. What is the accomplishment in that? That is just natural progression. Why just Pakistan? Bangladesh have closed the gap with other teams too using the same logic. They have beaten NZ several times. It does not mean NZ cricket is going South. They are still to win a tournament (even at home in any format) or at least draw a test overseas. The only time they had a chance in SA, their best player chickened out and they gave the most one sided away tour in recent history.

It is not natural progression. Not every team will progress if given the opportunity. Kenya made it to the World Cup semifinal in 2003, but they completely disappeared afterwards. Bangladesh have worked very hard at their cricket and have developed a very good domestic structure. The have a bright future in the game and they have already closed the gap between themselves and the established sides.

New Zealand is a wrong example because they have a very small population and cricket is their distant second sport. The fact they have been so good at cricket for so long is itself a miracle, and a credit to their sporting culture. However, it won't be surprising if Bangladesh leaves New Zealand behind in the long haul.

90s team had several cricketers who will walk into all time Pakistan XI. How much did they accomplish as a team? They lost to Zimbabwe at home! With a mediocre team, Pakistan have managed to win WT20, CT, an ODI series each in India and SA. They reached #1 test ranking. Besides, Yasir has a valid shot to make all time Pakistan XI. How many Australian players who debuted in this century will make their all time team? This is a weak argument. All you need is a balanced team in which every individual contributes.

The 90's team lacked leadership. Imran Khan passed over the reigns to the corrupt Wasim Akram who was a good tactician, but he was not the leader that the team needed. The 90's team should dominated the era, and it is a shame that they failed to fulfill their potential because of egos, infightings and corruption. However, that does not change the fact that post 90s, Pakistan suffered from a talent drought.

In spite of the isolated success, the last 15-20 years have been one of the darkest periods in Pakistan cricket history. We have awful in ODIs, and a Champions Trophy title does not change that. Since 2005, we have lost nearly 85% of all our ODI series against the top teams minus Sri Lanka.

The 90's team underachieved, but the post-millennia teams minus the Inzamam-Woolmer era have simply been mediocre. Australia's example is poor because they are the greatest cricketing nation ever who produced arguably the greatest team of all time only in the previous era.

Making it to the all-time Australian XI is not comparable to making it to the all-time Pakistan XI. We have not been able to produce great players for many years now, and that certainly indicates the decline of Pakistan cricket.

England have the best facilities and infrastrucure available. They must be dominating the game. Do they? SA have huge problems going on yet they still beat both Australia and India. Facilities alone do not make you a world class team. When Bangladesh surpass Pakistan then write an essay on it. For now, they are behind and so are Afghanistan.

Facilities alone do not make you a top team, you need to have talent as well. The English youth do not appear to be interested in Test cricket, and it is nowhere close to football in popularity. The young English players are more geared towards Limited Overs cricket and they remain a top side in the shorter formats for a while.

Unlike England, Bangladesh is a cricket crazy country and it is the only sport that they love. They will come good with and the systems that they have put in place will bear fruit.

Forget Bangladesh and Afghanistan. With such a world class team, facilities, IPL, etc. why have India failed to win 2015 WC, WT20, CT, and SA test series? Why have they failed to produce a single world class fast bowler since IPL's inception who can walk into their all time India XI? How many players who are product of IPL will walk into all time Indian XI?

India are doing just fine. They have consistently been among the top-ranked sides and their captain is the greatest cricket of this era, and one of the greatest cricketers of all time at the age of 29. They are producing some excellent young talent, and their U-19 winning team is the most professional and well-drilled U-19 side ever.

They have some fantastic talent coming through, and this is only the start of their dominance in world cricket. As far as producing world class fast bowlers are concerned, they are getting there, but it will take time.

India is a batting nation, and their aspiring players want to be Tendulkar and Kohli. Considering how much they have improved in terms of bowling, it is clear that it is only matter of time before they produce fast bowlers who would be able to make it to their all-time XI. The potential is already there - their young pacers stole the show in the U-19 World Cup.

The IPL will not produce players. It, along with other copycat cheap leagues, only serve as a platform to springboard players into the national team and accelerate their progress. Kohli did not become Kohli because of the IPL, but the opportunity to play with and against world class international players since the age of 19 has played a huge role in his development as a cricketer.

Same goes for other Indian cricketers of this generation who have benefited greatly from playing in the IPL. Kohli, Rohit, Ashwin, Jadeja etc. owe a lot of their success to IPL exposure.

______________________________________________________________

I would also like to tag your cheerleaders [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] and [MENTION=136079]ahmedwaqas92[/MENTION] who don't seem to have the capacity to come up with their own points but like to toot other people's horns.

They are the type of posters I don't appreciate. The ones who prefer to hide behind other people's posts. Hopefully they can make a more substantial contribution to this discussion other than posting smileys.

 

[Mamoon]

This post deserves Post of the century, forget POTW! As comprehensive as the CT final

So comprehensive he confused the Champions Trophy with the WT20, called Sri Lanka a team that is not mediocre, and dated England's revival in Limited Overs cricket to 2010.

 

[Mamoon]

As usual Mamoon will make some valid criticisms before negating them with attention seeking hyperbole and exaggeration.


Two series, one whitewash victory followed by one whitewash defeat, is hardly a large enough sample to conclude whether we've built on the Champions Trophy or not. However, if you cannot see the improvement in fielding and bowling then we must be watching different teams. Look at the numbers. Under Azhar Ali's tenure as ODI captain, our bowling average was 39 and our economy rate was 5.66 RPO. Since Sarfraz Ahmed was appointed, the bowling average is 27 and the economy rate is down to 4.99 RPO. Our fielding has improved immeasurably in all formats - to the point where we're only behind South Africa and New Zealand in the percentage of Test catches taken, a stat I'd never thought I'd read in my lifetime.

I'd agree our batting remains our Achilles' heel and we lack the dynamism of other teams, though there are several players who've shown promise.

It is not a large sample, but the fact that it took only one series against a quality side for the wheels to come off puts things into perspective. Furthermore, how can you draw parallels between the Azhar and Sarfraz?

Azhar captained 15 ODIs against Australia and England in less than a year. A nightmare scenario for any captain. On the other hand, Sarfraz has had the luxury of getting eased into captaincy by playing bilateral series against some poor sides, and it took one series against a good team for his team to get thrashed.

I am by no means defending Azhar's captaincy. He was poor, and Sarfraz is clearly better than him, but you cannot blindly bring stats and compare averages and other numbers without putting them into context.

Azhar's team also looked good against Sri Lanka and West Indies, and unless Sarfraz leads the team 15 times against Australia and England, we cannot quantify and measure the improvement.

This is a patronising statement as if cricket matches are won out of thin air and involve no strategy or planning.

We had the best bowling figures during the middle overs from all the teams in the Champions Trophy, neutralising some of the best batting teams in the world in India, England and South Africa. We extracted the most reverse swing from flat, placid wickets in a tournament where there was little overcast weather during the latter stages. That doesn't happen by chance but due to sound tactics and selection which Sarfraz and Arthur deserve credit for.

I know you'll say bowling is our traditional strength - but I've just shown you the numbers which showed our bowling was SHOCKING in the ODI format before the tournament.

You can call it what you want, but individual wins are individual wins. Beating better teams over 4-5 matches is much harder then beating them in one-off game.

Azhar led Pakistan to a win against England in the first ODI of the 2015 series in Abu Dhabi, and if it was a one match series, we would be singing songs of his captaincy.

He also led Pakistan to a win against England in the fifth ODI in 2016, and if it was the only match of the series, we would again be singing songs of his captaincy.

Unless Sarfraz's team shows consistency and beats the likes of Australia, England, South Africa, India etc. in a series, we cannot say that this team is much better than the previous teams. They simply haven't been properly tested yet, although the miserably failed the first test (New Zealand ODI series).

Since the start of 2012, New Zealand have only lost 3 out of 31 ODIs at home against Asian opposition. They've beaten Australia at home and were the runners-up at the last World Cup. They're a far more settled outfit whereas we're in the early stages of our development. Anyone expecting us to hammer NZ in their backyard were always going to be disappointed - and those predictions were a minority. A better barometer of our progress is when the likes of Australia and NZ tour the UAE later this year, and when we next visit them.

New Zealand have been brilliant at home, but a team that is fresh off winning the Champions Trophy and did not do so due to any fluke or luck should not have folded 5-0 so meekly. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and in spite of being in awe of New Zealand's dominance at home, I bet that even you did not expect a 5-0 whitewash.

However, you are now using the benefit of hindsight to justify our capitulation by crediting New Zealand for their home dominance, simply because you do not want to admit that the Champions Trophy winners were brutally exposed in the first major test that they had to face.

Again you make a valid criticism about our batting before negating it with rubbish. These sporting cliches pundits use like "bogey team" is nonsense - the winners of a cricket match beats their opponent because they had better tactics, selection and performance. Luck, flukes, momentum and all these buzzwords don't come into it especially in Test cricket where you must outperform the opposition session after session which we did at Lord's for 90% of the match in an era where home advantage is more pronounced than ever.

The irony is that I am perhaps the only poster on this forum who hasn't associated the Lord's win with a fluke. I have said it before and I will say it again - you cannot fluke Test matches. One stroke of luck or one incident do not dictate Test results, although they can heavily influence Limited Overs games.

Remaining undefeated in the last four series against an England side with those 5-6 top players you speak of is not by chance. England had never lost the first Test match of a home summer starting in May since 1995 when they lost to West Indies - a record they maintained when they had worse teams than this one. They have only lost 4 home Test series since the 2001 Ashes. They may shell single Tests against the likes of SL and WI, but usually they beat these teams over the course of a series whereas we've toured TWICE and drawn - this time with a vastly inexperienced team.

Of course you "wouldn't look too much into the 1-1 draw with England" because it doesn't fit your narrative of a terminally declining team - if we had won then you'd have come up with another excuse ! You said we drew 2-2 last time because England missed Anderson, Stokes, favourable pitches, late summer conditions, Brexit etc etc and now you've come with another excuse about low confidence and bogey teams. How can people take such criticisms in good faith ?

Certain things have gone Pakistan's way in England, but you still have to play good cricket. In this decade, Pakistan have lost to worst teams than England who have beaten better teams than Pakistan. It is pretty clear that Pakistan have had their number.

This doesn't make Pakistan better than what they are, it is normal for certain teams to do better against certain teams. I don't see why this is patronizing. The success against England should not be used to cover up the glaring weaknesses in this team.

Being the first Asian team to beat New Zealand in their backyard in a T20 series is an encouraging sign. I don't care about T20Is outside the World Cup but we've a far better chance of winning in 2020 than we did in 2020, and the progress made in the rankings reflect that, especially with the PSL now established which has given our youngsters a chance of learning from the best T20 players and performing in pressure situations.

I agree that this T20 team is better than the previous T20 teams, but do they deserve the number one ranking? No.

Any half-decent team would have been ranked number one if they were given the same fixtures as Pakistan. We have played 20 T20Is since the WT20 2016, and this is the breakdown:

10 vs West Indies
3 vs Sri Lanka
3 vs World XI
3 vs New Zealand
1 vs England

50% of the games against one team, and no matches at all against Australia, India and South Africa, and only one against England. How can anyone justify the number one ranking based on these ridiculous fixtures is beyond me.

We've already improved our domestic structure with the PSL, and there's no reason why we can't improve it further providing we use the proceeds wisely and employ the right people. Sethi for all his faults has established a good management team with Mickey Arthur and Inzamam, and re-establishing Pakistan as an international host will be a huge boon.

In spite of the political bias against Sethi, there is no doubt that he has done a very good job overall. However, PSL will not revive Pakistan cricket as long as QeA Trophy is in the dumps. So far, the talk of improved pitches is just talk, we will see when it comes to fruition.

 

[Sherlock]

That's what fans do. They live off past successes. It's literally what the England cricket and football teams have been doing decades.

That's another way of striving and eclipsing past successes to form something similar for the present, and future.

 

[Sherlock]

That's what fans do. They live off past successes. It's literally what the England cricket and football teams have been doing decades.

That's another way of striving and eclipsing past successes to form something similar for the present, and future.

Sorry, forgot to tag [MENTION=135989]world cup captain[/MENTION] (damn phone)

 

[Mainul]

I'm curious to the reason why Bangladesh cannot string together a respectable mid ranking team. The population of Bangladesh is quite high and they seem to have a lot of passion for the game. Everything seems to indicate that it's possible so it makes me wonder why it hasn't happen. [MENTION=79064]MMHS[/MENTION] [MENTION=136446]Mainul[/MENTION] [MENTION=136334]Shutdown Corner[/MENTION]

Bangladesh seemed to be on way towards achieving this in last few years and in 2015 and 2016 Bangladesh achieved some wonderful results in favour.Everybody thought that yes now Bangladesh will only move forward. But from then onwards we are not seeing any further improvements and Bangladesh seemed to be stucked in a corridor of uncertainty. I think the major reason behind it is after Shakib Tamim Mushfique Mahmudullah and Mashrafee no player has established himself as a top quality player.Anamul showed promise and one injury has set him back.Same thing happened to Fizz.Nazmul was a very promising seam bowler,recurrent injury has closed the door forever. Fitness is a big issue here. Sabbir,Soumya,Miraz,Taskin all started superbly but then steadily they are fading at an alarming rate .I can also name quiet a few other names who couldn't establish in the team due to inconsistency or lack of support from the selectors in their bad patch.Pacer Al Amin, Robiul, batsman Naeem, Shaheiar Nafees,All rounder Ziaur,Shohag Gazi .......I don't know who's fault is this,player or the board but one thing is for sure all these players seemed to have the material in them to have a long successful career in BD jersey. I find it very alrming situation when these 5 pillers of Bangladesh team will retire.

 

[Third_Umpire]

Sorry, a 3-0 loss to Afghanistan is worse than minnow status. Yes, Afghanistan is improving and Rashid Khan is world class, but 3-0 is shameful.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Bangladesh seemed to be on way towards achieving this in last few years and in 2015 and 2016 Bangladesh achieved some wonderful results in favour.Everybody thought that yes now Bangladesh will only move forward. But from then onwards we are not seeing any further improvements and Bangladesh seemed to be stucked in a corridor of uncertainty. I think the major reason behind it is after Shakib Tamim Mushfique Mahmudullah and Mashrafee no player has established himself as a top quality player.Anamul showed promise and one injury has set him back.Same thing happened to Fizz.Nazmul was a very promising seam bowler,recurrent injury has closed the door forever. Fitness is a big issue here. Sabbir,Soumya,Miraz,Taskin all started superbly but then steadily they are fading at an alarming rate .I can also name quiet a few other names who couldn't establish in the team due to inconsistency or lack of support from the selectors in their bad patch.Pacer Al Amin, Robiul, batsman Naeem, Shaheiar Nafees,All rounder Ziaur,Shohag Gazi .......I don't know who's fault is this,player or the board but one thing is for sure all these players seemed to have the material in them to have a long successful career in BD jersey. I find it very alrming situation when these 5 pillers of Bangladesh team will retire.

Call it genes. BD team does not have T20 batsmen. In this series Afghanistan hit 21 sixes. BD hit just 10 sixes. BD has to make peace with the fact they don't have a batting side that can win T20s consistently. They just have to strengthen their bowling and try to be a bowling unit that can restrict any sides. There is no monsterous batsman like Brathwhite or Russell waiting in the wings for Bangladesh.

 

[Hasan123]

Bangladesh have made progress no doubt. But can't consider them a top team yet. They are rubbish in T20s , fail in pressure situations time and time again, and have rarely competed away from home.

They are far away from being a top team.

 

[world cup captain]

Bangladesh seemed to be on way towards achieving this in last few years and in 2015 and 2016 Bangladesh achieved some wonderful results in favour.Everybody thought that yes now Bangladesh will only move forward. But from then onwards we are not seeing any further improvements and Bangladesh seemed to be stucked in a corridor of uncertainty. I think the major reason behind it is after Shakib Tamim Mushfique Mahmudullah and Mashrafee no player has established himself as a top quality player.Anamul showed promise and one injury has set him back.Same thing happened to Fizz.Nazmul was a very promising seam bowler,recurrent injury has closed the door forever. Fitness is a big issue here. Sabbir,Soumya,Miraz,Taskin all started superbly but then steadily they are fading at an alarming rate .I can also name quiet a few other names who couldn't establish in the team due to inconsistency or lack of support from the selectors in their bad patch.Pacer Al Amin, Robiul, batsman Naeem, Shaheiar Nafees,All rounder Ziaur,Shohag Gazi .......I don't know who's fault is this,player or the board but one thing is for sure all these players seemed to have the material in them to have a long successful career in BD jersey. I find it very alrming situation when these 5 pillers of Bangladesh team will retire.

Yes, I remember Sabbir Rehman at #3 a few years back. He seemed a genuine stroke player but faded away with time. I suppose the newer players much like Pakistan, fade away with time. The system needs to nurture these players better or else the cycle will continue.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

Not one fan in those 20 years had any delusions about India being a great team unlike most of the tiger fans who seem to think their team is the best ever team to have played cricket

This is actually a oft-repeated, yet never proven libel used to perpetuate what I suspect is really a racial or ethnic (since all desis are the same "race") animus that many (though not all Indians and Pakistanis) have against Bangladeshis.Its much easier to say "I hate Bangladeshis because [some/many/ALL] of them think they are better than everyone else" than it is to say "I just hate Bangladeshis because they are short/dark skinned/ugly/eat fish...gee maybe I'm just a bigot".

I'd be happy to retract this thesis IF - and this is a big if - anyone could point out a significant percentage of Bangladeshi posters who have at any time in the past 20 years consistently said that Bangladesh is the best cricket team in the world. Like show me the posts. One or two jestful boasts don't count. I want to see examples of posts from this or any other forum where Bangladeshi cricket fans have claimed that Bangladesh is the best team in the world or the best team in the history of cricket or even the best team in Asia. For the first time since I've joined this forum, I would actually like to be proven wrong here. But I don't think I will and I can even guess that the first excuse given will be "oh I'm far too important and busy to go and find posts and screenshot them and them repost in the forum for you", all the while being perfectly bekaar enough to have 10,000 or 20,000 or 30,000 posts. Sound plausible?

Perhaps some of these Bangladesh critics aren't consciously aware of their motivations, maybe some of them were victimized by a Bangladeshi in the past. Any number of things could be possible.

 

[blackanhyellow]

Bangladesh's fall has been surprising.

A couple of years ago, it looked like they were finally building a solid team and found some good bowlers.

 

[Varun]

Bangladesh's fall has been surprising.

A couple of years ago, it looked like they were finally building a solid team and found some good bowlers.

Don't you have to be at a height in the first place, to then "fall"?

 

[cricketindiafan]

This is actually a oft-repeated, yet never proven libel used to perpetuate what I suspect is really a racial or ethnic (since all desis are the same "race") animus that many (though not all Indians and Pakistanis) have against Bangladeshis. Akin to blood libels against Jews in Europe in order to justify anti-semitism. Its much easier to say "I hate Bangladeshis because [some/many/ALL] of them think they are better than everyone else" than it is to say "I just hate Bangladeshis because they are short/dark skinned/ugly/eat fish...gee maybe I'm just a bigot".

I'd be happy to retract this thesis IF - and this is a big if - anyone could point out a significant percentage of Bangladeshi posters who have at any time in the past 20 years consistently said that Bangladesh is the best cricket team in the world. Like show me the posts. One or two jestful boasts don't count. I want to see examples of posts from this or any other forum where Bangladeshi cricket fans have claimed that Bangladesh is the best team in the world or the best team in the history of cricket or even the best team in Asia. For the first time since I've joined this forum, I would actually like to be proven wrong here. But I don't think I will and I can even guess that the first excuse given will be "oh I'm far too important and busy to go and find posts and screenshot them and them repost in the forum for you", all the while being perfectly bekaar enough to have 10,000 or 20,000 or 30,000 posts. Sound plausible?

Perhaps some of these Bangladesh critics aren't consciously aware of their motivations, maybe some of them were victimized by a Bangladeshi in the past. Any number of things could be possible.

"most of the tiger fans" read it very slowly and then search on social media. And you are right, I am not going to go through posts to prove something to you.

Watch behaviour of those fans and especially Bangla media next time you win something against a major nation.

 

[MenInG]

Keep all discussions to cricket.

 

[Shutdown Corner]

And you are right, I am not going to go through posts to prove something to you.

Well you've only got 6000 posts so you might actually be busy, so I'll give you a pass.

Watch behaviour of those fans and especially Bangla media next time you win something against a major nation.

"most tiger fans" means 51% or more...so:

I need names. Twitter handles, IG accounts, youtube channels. I'm not asking for DNA samples here. "Those fans" is terrible ID. Thats like referring to Hitler by saying "the Holocaust was orchestrated by that German with a mustouche".

But honestly I don't even care about possible random idiots on tumblr or xanga, who are the posters on this forum, who keep saying that Bangladesh is the #1 ranked side in world cricket? How representative are they of all Bangladeshis?

If I know of one Indian who sneezed in my direction, is that a reason to hate all 10 billion Indians on the planet?

 

[Mainul]

Not one fan in those 20 years had any delusions about India being a great team unlike most of the tiger fans who seem to think their team is the best ever team to have played cricket

BTW as those are different eras, comparing time frames alone is not correct. Let us look at number of tests teams took to win their first test and their record when they won their first test

Aus - won their first tests
England and Pakistan won their 2nd tests
WI 5 tests, 4 losses, 1 draw
SL 13 tests, 8 losses, 5 draws
SA 11 tests, 10 losses, 1 draw
India 20 tests, 11 losses, 9 draws
NZ 44 tests, 22 losses, 22 draws
BD 38 tests, 33 losses, 4 draws

If I was a BD fan, I would never ever mock other teams for their past record.

Can you qoute any such comment please? If you can't it will be considered just a mockery and false allegation from you ,nothing else.If you can then any bashing will be gladly accepted.

 

[Mainul]

Don't you have to be at a height in the first place, to then "fall"?

Bangladesh was recently ranked 6th in ICC ODI ranking above Pakistan,Srilanka,West Indies,Zimbabwe.Wont you consider it some height? LOL.

 

[Shafi]

We should't be too much boastful either. Recently Mujib alone destroy our U-19 team 3-4 times in World Cup and Asia Cup. We are about to face Rashid as well. So we could end up humiliate by them.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Well you've only got 6000 posts so you might actually be busy, so I'll give you a pass.



"most tiger fans" means 51% or more...so:

I need names. Twitter handles, IG accounts, youtube channels. I'm not asking for DNA samples here. "Those fans" is terrible ID. Thats like referring to Hitler by saying "the Holocaust was orchestrated by that German with a mustouche".

But honestly I don't even care about possible random idiots on tumblr or xanga, who are the posters on this forum, who keep saying that Bangladesh is the #1 ranked side in world cricket? How representative are they of all Bangladeshis?

If I know of one Indian who sneezed in my direction, is that a reason to hate all 10 billion Indians on the planet?

There is a thread on PP about Bangladesh being the second best team in Asia. I don't remember who created it, seeing as we have a bunch of insecure Pakistanis on this forum. But the Bangladeshi posters in that thread did agree with the premise. Since you are on a Pakistani forum, and that thread was created to troll Pakistanis, you cannot whine when posters on this forum take Bangladeshi fans to the cleaners.