Best batsmen against genuine pace of the last 50 years

[Harsh Thakor]

This is my list in order of merit of the best batsmen against genuine or express pace in order of merit.It does not ***** overall class or merit.It is still tentative as many of the positions are virtually decided in a photo finish and could well be reversed.The rating did not base itself on sole statistics but also took into consideration ability to dominate pace and technical skill against it equally.It analyzes not just the runs but the ease with which the batsmen defied pace ,particularly against the short,bouncing ball on fast ,bouncy tracks.It has given preferability to agressive batsmen who dominated bowling but also given due consideration to players who could bat for their lives.I have considered the class of pace bowlers these batsmen faced and the nature of wickets played on when making my rankings.Consistency of batsmen has also been an important consideration.

25 best batsmen ever in tentative order of merit against genuine pace of the last 50 years.


1.Viv Richards
2.Barry Richards
3.Rohan Kanhai
4.Gary Sobers
5.Graham Gooch
6.Colin Cowdrey
7.Ricky Ponting
8.Sunil Gavaskar
9.Inzamam Ul Haq
10.Ian Chappell
11.Sachin Tendulkar
12.David Gower
13.Brian Lara /Greg Chappell
15.Ted Dexter
16.Gundapa Vishwanath/Majid Khan
18.Alan Border
19.Martin Crowe
20.Clive Lloyd
21.Kevin Pieterson
22.Rahul Dravid
23.V.V.S.Laxman
24.Javed Miandad
25.Mark Waugh


Very complex where to rank Tendulkar and Lara as although they were geniuses and arguably the best batsmen of them all did not prove themselves against genuine pace like Gavaskar,Gooch,Chappell brothers,Sobers,Rohan Kanhai.

Tendulkar dominated Alan Donald but although prolific was defensive against Dale Steyn in 2010-11 in South Africa.Tendulkar has torn apart the likes of Wasim and Waqar in O.D.I's .Still I felt he had an advantage of not having to play the best of bowlers of genuine pace in Australia like Viv or Sunny earlier and playing with protective headgear unlike his earlier counterparts.Glen Mcgrath was fast -medium and not express pace while Bret Lee was genuinely fast but not in terms of class in the club of a Lillee,Marshall or Akram.

Lara 's not scored a single test century against a great paceman who wa sgenuinely quick like Akram,Waaqr or Donald in tsets.Neverthles in O.D.I's he scored some his finest hundreds against them.

I have given Ponting the nod as he was marvellous on fast tracks and against paceman like Wasim and Shoaib Akhtar.

Inzamam is rated above anyone of the 1990's because of his great ability to tear apart genuine pace and relish even the good ball like he displayed against West Indies at home and away and the ease with which he tackled the short,bouncing ball.Against top express pace Inzy displayed greater ease than Sachin or Lara although statistics did not do his phenomenal ability true justice.Inzy in 1994 even relished Alan Donald.No batsmen of his time batted better on Carribean soil against the likes of Ambrose and Walsh.

Gooch is ranked higher than Gavaskar as he was more dominant and scored against the greatest of Carribean pace attacks.Overall Gavaskar was certainly better but against pure pace I gave Gooch the edge by a whisker .

Gavaskar is ranked high because he opened the batting against sustained pace against t the greatest bowlers,breaking almost ever batting record. Gavaskar is not rated at the very top because he basically was batsmen in the defensive mould who wore down attacks rather than take them to the sword like compatriots Viv,Bary,Sobers and Kanhai.He scored runs against the greatest bowlers ever but the bulk of his runs against West Indies and Australia came against the weaker pace attacks.8 of his 13 centuries v West Indies were not scored against the great Calypos pace quartet.

I adjudged Viv at the top because no batsmen treated sustained pace of the likes of Lillee and Imran as mercilessly while no batsmen blended technical perfection with domination of bowling at it's supreme zenith ever as much as Barry Richards.The batting in WSC supertests of Barry and Viv convinced me of their place at the top of the pedestal.Viv won the battle because he had a proper test career and was more imaginative.Neverthless morally Barry exhibited domination at the same level of Viv.If he had a full test career Barry may have even been no 1. having been an opener.

It was a whisker between Kanhai and Sobers who destroyed great pace but I gave Kanhai the edge because he batted at one down while Sobers mainly batted at no 6.They tackled the likes of greats like Trueman,Statham,Davidson,Mckenzie,Lillee etc.Their best innings in Australia in 1972 playing for rest of the world influenced me greatly,with Kanhai displaying marginaly more flair.

Cowdrey's 102 out of 191 facing Lindwall and Miller at Melbourne and his 114 and 97 at Kingtson in 1960-61 had a great bearing on my mind plus his unbeaten match-winning unbeaten 151 for Kent v Australia in 1975.

I thought although not as talented Ian Chappell was a better player of the bouncing delivery or on fast wickets than bother Greg,Lara and Tendulkar.Ian averaged over 50 at one down and his 449 run sin the 1975-76 Frank worrel trophy morally played a greater role than Greg's contribution of 702 runs in Australia wining the world unofficial test championship.

On a fast wicket I would always back Gundappa Vishwanath to overshadow Gavaskar who played the short ball with more profound skill and unlike Gavaskar would even dispatch the good balls to the fence.Unlike Gavaskar Vishy has a century against Lille which he scored at Melbourne in 1980-81.Rated Vishy lower than Sunny because of inconsistency and not as solid defence as his brother in law.Vishy's 2 best ever innings at Madras v West Indies has overshadowed any innings of Gavaskar against genuine pace.He virtually single-handedly wonthe 2 games for India of his own bat on a pitch as fast as Perth.

Majid Khan on his day could join Viv and Barry who played the hook shot better than any batsmen bar Viv Richards and played some classic knocks against top pace of Weest Indies and Australia.His 167 at Georgetown was a true classic in 1977 which played a major role in taking his team out of dire straits.

Greg Chappell statistically was the best but was uncomfortable against the short,bouncing ball and often did not relish the fast pitches.On a good wicket Greg could have joined Viv or Barry.Still it must be mentioned that no batsmen had a better record against the hostile pace attack in the Carribaen in the 1970's as Greg who in 5 WSC supertsets amassed 621 run sat an average of 69 with 3 centuries in 1979.His vulnerability against the bouncing ball was dispalyed in the 1979-80 Frank Worrel trophy.

Hard to seperate the 3 left-handers Gower Lloyd and Border Gower and Border who were as different from each other as chalk and cheese but euqllay efective in their own right.
Gower tackled great pace with the ease of a shepherd tending his flock , Border resembled a boulder unperturbed by thunder and lightning,while Lloyd held the bat like a bludgeon facing express pace.

.Border is ranked low as he hardly dominated the opposition but to bat for your life he was better than any middle-order batsmen as he proved in the Carribean when averaging over 74 in 1984 and ressurecting his team from the grave scoring an unbeaten 98 and 100.

Gower often had patches of inconsistency.Few batsmen ever displayed as remorseless ease as Gower on the fast Australian tracks against top pace who Lille rated amongst the top 3 batsmen he ever bowled to.Marshall thought Border was the hardest batsmen to dislodge.

Lloyd played Lillee and Thomson at their quickest better than anyone in the 1975-76 Frank Worrel trophy averaging 46.9 .He was also ever -consistent playing match-winning roles in the Frank Worrel trophy editions down under in 1979-80 , 1981-82 and 1984-85.

Javed Miandad was champion and the scourge of paceman but did not prove himself enough out of Pakistan Still he was more talented than players like Border and in a crisis could resist great pace better than most batsmen.


Ted Dexter counter-attacked great West Indies and Australian pace attacks in the manner Sobers did in the early 1960's .His 73 v Australia at Old Trafford and 70 versus West Indies at Lords were a part of of cricket's all-time classics.In a crisis against tearaway pace he played the role of 'Cometh the hour,cometh the man.'He was master in negotiating the short ball and pulled and hooked as imperiously as any great batsmen of his time.Gary Sobers rated Dexter the best English batsmen he ever played against who could counter-attack oposition more than anyone.

Kevin Pieterson was class act against genuine pace as he revealed in the 2005 home Ashes series and in the 2010-11 series in Australia.No batsmen resembled Viv Richards more in hos day and age against top quality pace bowling.

Martin Crowe was elegance personified and was at his best against great attacks in Australia and West Indies in the mid 1980's.

Rahul Dravid was the ultimate wall in the Alan Border mould how could stick it out and thwart a crisis better than anyone of his era .However he did not display consistent attacking agression and also did not face as lethal pace as the likes of Gavaskar,Viv and co.No doubt amongst the top 3-4 defensive players of great pace of all time.


Mark Waugh was the ultimate epitome of batting elegance and technical skill who had more natural ability against lethal pace than brother Steve.On his day Mark devoured great West Indian,South African and Australian bowlers with the relsih of biting off a freshly baked cake.


V.V.S.Laxman was artistry personified playing great pace bowling with ease and grace like no batsmen of his time.His great centuries v Australia testified this and his great average in the 4th innings in winning causes.Good dispatch the best balls of express pace on his day with more ease than even Tendulkar resembling a musical composer when batting.


Unfortunate to miss out are Dilip Vengsarkar,Aravinda De'Silva,Steve Waugh,Alvin Kalicharan,Kumar Sangakaara,Mahela Jayewardene,Mohinder Amarnath,Wasim Raja,Lawrence Rowe,Geoff Boycott etc who just missed the cut by matter of inches and could so well have made it. I am really Sorry to Sri Lankan fans having unfortunately excluded every name from Sri Lanka and I render my apologies if I am biased.No doubt Aravinda,Sanga and Mahela were true greats but still feel missed out by just a fraction.

 

[Haz95]

Very informative post but even before actually clicking this article I knew it would be Sir Vivian Richards.

Barry Richards cannot be rated as highly due to lack of international feats, regardless of how good he was in other Supertests and whatnot.

Also Ricky Ponting should be in the top 5 or even top3, no doubt.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Very informative post but even before actually clicking this article I knew it would be Sir Vivian Richards.

Barry Richards cannot be rated as highly due to lack of international feats, regardless of how good he was in other Supertests and whatnot.





Also Ricky Ponting should be in the top 5 or even top3, no doubt.

What about other players like Gavaskar,Chappell brothers,Gower,Majid,Lar,Tendulkar etc.Ranked correctly even if my order is tentative?Where does Inzamam rank in your view.

Never forger Bary's super performances in WSC cricket where he averaged above 79.Rember standard prevailing there and then.take this into consideration .

 

[Haz95]

What about other players like Gavaskar,Chappell brothers,Gower,Majid,Lar,Tendulkar etc.Ranked correctly even if my order is tentative?Where does Inzamam rank in your view.

Never forger Bary's super performances in WSC cricket where he averaged above 79.Rember standard prevailing there and then.take this into consideration .

Haven't looked too closely at the named batsmen so won't comment, however am talking about destructive ability against pace whereby Ricky Ponting and Viv Richards stood out.

Inzamam definitely was a brilliant player, his own laziness and lack of commitment however ruined his record/name against pace. Barry Richards was another talented and destructive batsman vs pace but again due to a lack of international feats, I'm reluctant to rate him highly (even if the supertests were more competetive).

 

[Romali_rotti]

This is my list in order of merit of the best batsmen against genuine or express pace in order of merit.It does not ***** overall class or merit.It is still tentative as many of the positions are virtually decided in a photo finish and could well be reversed.The rating did not base itself on sole statistics but also took into consideration ability to dominate pace and technical skill against it equally.It analyzes not just the runs but the ease with which the batsmen defied pace ,particularly against the short,bouncing ball on fast ,bouncy tracks.It has given preferability to agressive batsmen who dominated bowling but also given due consideration to players who could bat for their lives.I have considered the class of pace bowlers these batsmen faced and the nature of wickets played on when making my rankings.Consistency of batsmen has also been an important consideration.

25 best batsmen ever in tentative order of merit against genuine pace of the last 50 years.


1.Viv Richards
2.Barry Richards
3.Rohan Kanhai
4.Gary Sobers
5.Graham Gooch
6.Colin Cowdrey
7.Ricky Ponting
8.Sunil Gavaskar
9.Inzamam Ul Haq
10.Ian Chappell
11.Sachin Tendulkar
12.David Gower
13.Brian Lara /Greg Chappell
15.Ted Dexter
16.Gundapa Vishwanath/Majid Khan
18.Alan Border
19.Martin Crowe
20.Clive Lloyd
21.Kevin Pieterson
22.Rahul Dravid
23.V.V.S.Laxman
24.Javed Miandad
25.Mark Waugh


Very complex where to rank Tendulkar and Lara as although they were geniuses and arguably the best batsmen of them all did not prove themselves against genuine pace like Gavaskar,Gooch,Chappell brothers,Sobers,Rohan Kanhai.

Tendulkar dominated Alan Donald but although prolific was defensive against Dale Steyn in 2010-11 in South Africa.Tendulkar has torn apart the likes of Wasim and Waqar in O.D.I's .Still I felt he had an advantage of not having to play the best of bowlers of genuine pace in Australia like Viv or Sunny earlier and playing with protective headgear unlike his earlier counterparts.Glen Mcgrath was fast -medium and not express pace while Bret Lee was genuinely fast but not in terms of class in the club of a Lillee,Marshall or Akram.

Lara 's not scored a single test century against a great paceman who wa sgenuinely quick like Akram,Waaqr or Donald in tsets.Neverthles in O.D.I's he scored some his finest hundreds against them.

I have given Ponting the nod as he was marvellous on fast tracks and against paceman like Wasim and Shoaib Akhtar.

Inzamam is rated above anyone of the 1990's because of his great ability to tear apart genuine pace and relish even the good ball like he displayed against West Indies at home and away and the ease with which he tackled the short,bouncing ball.Against top express pace Inzy displayed greater ease than Sachin or Lara although statistics did not do his phenomenal ability true justice.Inzy in 1994 even relished Alan Donald.No batsmen of his time batted better on Carribean soil against the likes of Ambrose and Walsh.

Gooch is ranked higher than Gavaskar as he was more dominant and scored against the greatest of Carribean pace attacks.Overall Gavaskar was certainly better but against pure pace I gave Gooch the edge by a whisker .

Gavaskar is ranked high because he opened the batting against sustained pace against t the greatest bowlers,breaking almost ever batting record. Gavaskar is not rated at the very top because he basically was batsmen in the defensive mould who wore down attacks rather than take them to the sword like compatriots Viv,Bary,Sobers and Kanhai.He scored runs against the greatest bowlers ever but the bulk of his runs against West Indies and Australia came against the weaker pace attacks.8 of his 13 centuries v West Indies were not scored against the great Calypos pace quartet.

I adjudged Viv at the top because no batsmen treated sustained pace of the likes of Lillee and Imran as mercilessly while no batsmen blended technical perfection with domination of bowling at it's supreme zenith ever as much as Barry Richards.The batting in WSC supertests of Barry and Viv convinced me of their place at the top of the pedestal.Viv won the battle because he had a proper test career and was more imaginative.Neverthless morally Barry exhibited domination at the same level of Viv.If he had a full test career Barry may have even been no 1. having been an opener.

It was a whisker between Kanhai and Sobers who destroyed great pace but I gave Kanhai the edge because he batted at one down while Sobers mainly batted at no 6.They tackled the likes of greats like Trueman,Statham,Davidson,Mckenzie,Lillee etc.Their best innings in Australia in 1972 playing for rest of the world influenced me greatly,with Kanhai displaying marginaly more flair.

Cowdrey's 102 out of 191 facing Lindwall and Miller at Melbourne and his 114 and 97 at Kingtson in 1960-61 had a great bearing on my mind plus his unbeaten match-winning unbeaten 151 for Kent v Australia in 1975.

I thought although not as talented Ian Chappell was a better player of the bouncing delivery or on fast wickets than bother Greg,Lara and Tendulkar.Ian averaged over 50 at one down and his 449 run sin the 1975-76 Frank worrel trophy morally played a greater role than Greg's contribution of 702 runs in Australia wining the world unofficial test championship.

On a fast wicket I would always back Gundappa Vishwanath to overshadow Gavaskar who played the short ball with more profound skill and unlike Gavaskar would even dispatch the good balls to the fence.Unlike Gavaskar Vishy has a century against Lille which he scored at Melbourne in 1980-81.Rated Vishy lower than Sunny because of inconsistency and not as solid defence as his brother in law.Vishy's 2 best ever innings at Madras v West Indies has overshadowed any innings of Gavaskar against genuine pace.He virtually single-handedly wonthe 2 games for India of his own bat on a pitch as fast as Perth.

Majid Khan on his day could join Viv and Barry who played the hook shot better than any batsmen bar Viv Richards and played some classic knocks against top pace of Weest Indies and Australia.His 167 at Georgetown was a true classic in 1977 which played a major role in taking his team out of dire straits.

Greg Chappell statistically was the best but was uncomfortable against the short,bouncing ball and often did not relish the fast pitches.On a good wicket Greg could have joined Viv or Barry.Still it must be mentioned that no batsmen had a better record against the hostile pace attack in the Carribaen in the 1970's as Greg who in 5 WSC supertsets amassed 621 run sat an average of 69 with 3 centuries in 1979.His vulnerability against the bouncing ball was dispalyed in the 1979-80 Frank Worrel trophy.

Hard to seperate the 3 left-handers Gower Lloyd and Border Gower and Border who were as different from each other as chalk and cheese but euqllay efective in their own right.
Gower tackled great pace with the ease of a shepherd tending his flock , Border resembled a boulder unperturbed by thunder and lightning,while Lloyd held the bat like a bludgeon facing express pace.

.Border is ranked low as he hardly dominated the opposition but to bat for your life he was better than any middle-order batsmen as he proved in the Carribean when averaging over 74 in 1984 and ressurecting his team from the grave scoring an unbeaten 98 and 100.

Gower often had patches of inconsistency.Few batsmen ever displayed as remorseless ease as Gower on the fast Australian tracks against top pace who Lille rated amongst the top 3 batsmen he ever bowled to.Marshall thought Border was the hardest batsmen to dislodge.

Lloyd played Lillee and Thomson at their quickest better than anyone in the 1975-76 Frank Worrel trophy averaging 46.9 .He was also ever -consistent playing match-winning roles in the Frank Worrel trophy editions down under in 1979-80 , 1981-82 and 1984-85.

Javed Miandad was champion and the scourge of paceman but did not prove himself enough out of Pakistan Still he was more talented than players like Border and in a crisis could resist great pace better than most batsmen.


Ted Dexter counter-attacked great West Indies and Australian pace attacks in the manner Sobers did in the early 1960's .His 73 v Australia at Old Trafford and 70 versus West Indies at Lords were a part of of cricket's all-time classics.In a crisis against tearaway pace he played the role of 'Cometh the hour,cometh the man.'He was master in negotiating the short ball and pulled and hooked as imperiously as any great batsmen of his time.Gary Sobers rated Dexter the best English batsmen he ever played against who could counter-attack oposition more than anyone.

Kevin Pieterson was class act against genuine pace as he revealed in the 2005 home Ashes series and in the 2010-11 series in Australia.No batsmen resembled Viv Richards more in hos day and age against top quality pace bowling.

Martin Crowe was elegance personified and was at his best against great attacks in Australia and West Indies in the mid 1980's.

Rahul Dravid was the ultimate wall in the Alan Border mould how could stick it out and thwart a crisis better than anyone of his era .However he did not display consistent attacking agression and also did not face as lethal pace as the likes of Gavaskar,Viv and co.No doubt amongst the top 3-4 defensive players of great pace of all time.


Mark Waugh was the ultimate epitome of batting elegance and technical skill who had more natural ability against lethal pace than brother Steve.On his day Mark devoured great West Indian,South African and Australian bowlers with the relsih of biting off a freshly baked cake.


V.V.S.Laxman was artistry personified playing great pace bowling with ease and grace like no batsmen of his time.His great centuries v Australia testified this and his great average in the 4th innings in winning causes.Good dispatch the best balls of express pace on his day with more ease than even Tendulkar resembling a musical composer when batting.


Unfortunate to miss out are Dilip Vengsarkar,Aravinda De'Silva,Steve Waugh,Alvin Kalicharan,Kumar Sangakaara,Mahela Jayewardene,Mohinder Amarnath,Wasim Raja,Lawrence Rowe,Geoff Boycott etc who just missed the cut by matter of inches and could so well have made it. I am really Sorry to Sri Lankan fans having unfortunately excluded every name from Sri Lanka and I render my apologies if I am biased.No doubt Aravinda,Sanga and Mahela were true greats but still feel missed out by just a fraction.

You put Inzi & Rahul Dravid ahead of Mohinder Amarnath ?? .. Close thread....

 

[FreePalestine]

I would say Amla and Sanga in their prime were ahead of KP in his prime. Yes KP brutalized some pace attacks, but he was Asif's bunny, and could not handle the seaming ball.

Inzy was a quality player against pace, but never managed to succeed on bouncy tracks in Oz in test cricket, which has to be held against him if we are talking about the 'best ever'.

Tendulkar should be higher up. The guy did not just brutalize Wasim and Waqar, but also Shoaib. Played some quality knocks against the aussies on their home turf as well.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Great list as always OP. Learned some stuff

 

[cricketjoshila]

Can you tell me how do you rate Barry Richards at number two?Someone who has played only 4 tests cannot be rated anywhere let alone be among top 2 of best ever batters againist pace.

In 1977 WSC series Barry Richards faced no WI great.He faced only one great bowler and that was Dennis Lillee.

In the 1st test Barry Richards scored 76 and 48 and there was no Lillee in the line up.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17141/scorecard/315992/WSC-Australia-vs-WSC-World-XI-1st-Match

In the 2nd test Barry Richards did score a 207, the top 3 batsman for that WSC world 11 scored 207,140 and 177.

Yes Dennis lillee did play that match but the other bowlers were Gilmour Walker and White.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17141/scorecard/315993/WSC-Australia-vs-WSC-World-XI-2nd-Match

In the 3rd test Lillee was joined by Pascoe. Barry Richards scored 76 and 0 .

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17141/scorecard/315994/WSC-Australia-vs-WSC-World-XI-3rd-Match

In these 3 unofficial tests the scores of Viv Richards were,

119,18 / 177 / 170,18

In the 1978 WSC series


Barry Richards did not play in the 1st test vs Australia 11

He played in the 2nd test vs WI 11

His score was 37.This was the only time Barry Richards faced the WI greats.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8614/scorecard/316194/WSC-West-Indies-vs-WSC-World-XI-

The last Super test was again vs Australia 11 and Barry Richards scored 28 and 101 . The bowlers were Lillee Pascoe and Gilmour


http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/8614/scorecard/316196/WSC-Australia-vs-WSC-World-XI-Final

And on the basis of this you want to say that Barry Richards is better than someone who has 10k test runs in 125 tests and faced everyone from WI quatret to IK and Sarfaraz to Hadlee to Thomson and Lillee(Ony 2 tests though) to Willis and Snow.

Not to forget Underwood Qadir etc.
[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

Thing is some people come here and talk about cricketing history and most posters lap it up because they havent heard seen or read any of these stuff.Problem is i have been brought up on a dose of cricketing history.

I will not even discuss Inzamam over Tendulkar and insult my intelligence and Tendulkar's ability.
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

 

[Napa]

Can you tell me how do you rate Barry Richards at number two?Someone who has played only 4 tests cannot be rated anywhere let alone be among top 2 of best ever batters againist pace.

I will not even discuss Inzamam over Tendulkar and insult my intelligence and Tendulkar's ability.
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

It is a pretty much waste of time for me discussing Harsh Thakor's lists. He is heavily biased against Indian batsmen. In one of his lists he had Gooch rated higher than Gavaskar which is beyond absurd. When presented with stats he had no reply. I don't read his lists anymore.

 

[Hitman]

Can you tell me how do you rate Barry Richards at number two?Someone who has played only 4 tests cannot be rated anywhere let alone be among top 2 of best ever batters againist pace.



I will not even discuss Inzamam over Tendulkar and insult my intelligence and Tendulkar's ability.
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

Same here.

 

[Hitman]

The thing is a batsman can be the greatest ever batsman against sheer pace bowling but unless he displays it in Test cricket he is worth nothing to talk about. Barry Richards may have scored all the runs he did but he did not do it in Test cricket, whether he would have succeeded or not is another debate. And that itself disqualifies him from the equation.
[MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION]

 

[TQ89]

What is with the barry richards stuff every wisden fanatic here has. The guy played four test matches and couple of wsc matches. Nobody denies his talent but what is with the number one or number 2 ranking you and junaids have him in every list. Then you have the audacity to say we disrespect the old legends. We dont disrespect the old greats, we are just allergic to such rubbish favoritism and call it what it really is.

How does that equate to being better than all the other guys who have played 25 times more matches and played 5 to 8 different opponents?

Funny things is the guy no matter how great you proclaim him to be played against an already battered australia team in 1969 and that too in his home grounds. And we are supposed to worship the ground he walks on because of that. RIP logic

 

[TQ89]

Dont worry, Junaids will still find a way to prove that the only high quality cricket that has taken place since cricket's creation took place in those wsc supertest's and all the rest of test cricket and odi cricket and t20 cricket and numerous world cups have been rubbish and contributed nothing to sport and hence dont count

 

[Last Monetarist]

Oh dear, best take cover as the thread has been hijacked by the mob. Heaven forbid that an Indian is not rated among the greatest players of pace.

Regarding the Barry Richards debate, ask any quick bowler who played shield cricket and county cricket in the seventies about Barry Richards ability to play fast bowling. Ian Chappell, who has forgotten more about cricket than anyone on this forum has ever known, and was famously known to harbour a grudge against the South Africans for hammering Australia on that 1970 tour, also rated him amongst the best of that era beside Sobers. Excuse us all for taking his word at face value than listen to the rabid splutterings of some random keyboard warrior(s) from India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Oh dear, best take cover as the thread has been hijacked by the mob. Heaven forbid that an Indian is not rated among the greatest players of pace.

Regarding the Barry Richards debate, ask any quick bowler who played shield cricket and county cricket in the seventies about Barry Richards ability to play fast bowling. Ian Chappell, who has forgotten more about cricket than anyone on this forum has ever known, and was famously known to harbour a grudge against the South Africans for hammering Australia on that 1970 tour, also rated him amongst the best of that era beside Sobers. Excuse us all for taking his word at face value than listen to the rabid splutterings of some random keyboard warrior(s) from India.

Excuse us for rating someone with 10000 test runs at an avg of 50 plus over someone who has 4 tests.

Regarding Ian Chapell and his personal opinion, well there are opinions of Sobers and Akrams who hail Gavaskar and dont even mention Barry Richards.

Gavaskar wipes the floor with Barry Richards in test match cricket.Any amount of whining wont change it.

I wont even discuss why Tendulkar is better than Inzamam and insult SRTs greatness and my inteliigence.

 

[Hasan123]

Lol at Inzi above Sachin, Inzi failed in Australia and South Africa so I would never have him above Sachin. Sachin whilst he never dominated a series in those countries he had a decent enough record versus some good attacks.

In recent times I'll go with Ponting as the best player versus genuine pace, whilst of all time you could go with Viv, Sunil, or Chappel.

 

[khurram39]

Good article.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Lol Barry RIchards , you can only judge someone if he plays a minimum of 50 test matches...............

 

[Tusker]

Can you tell me how do you rate Barry Richards at number two?Someone who has played only 4 tests cannot be rated anywhere let alone be among top 2 of best ever batters againist pace.



I will not even discuss Inzamam over Tendulkar and insult my intelligence and Tendulkar's ability.
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

It is a pretty much waste of time for me discussing Harsh Thakor's lists. He is heavily biased against Indian batsmen. In one of his lists he had Gooch rated higher than Gavaskar which is beyond absurd. When presented with stats he had no reply. I don't read his lists anymore.

Exactly ... he is here only to indulge in Nostalgia trips with the usual suspects. Once you try to scratch the surface and ask some difficult questions ... you get silence. Waste of time.

 

[gibsyhesperis]

Having seen all of the players in the list when they were in their prime, for me the best two were Gavaskar and Richards. Gavaskar was technically correct and scored against the West Indian quicks. Richards had a great eye and was truly brutal and dismissive of the quicks

 

[Tusker]

Having seen all of the players in the list when they were in their prime, for me the best two were Gavaskar and Richards. Gavaskar was technically correct and scored against the West Indian quicks. Richards had a great eye and was truly brutal and dismissive of the quicks

You should check Richards record against the WI quicks :

http://www.cricketcountry.com/artic...perform-against-the-west-indian-quicks-203715

Discussed here :

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ce-of-the-last-50-years&p=9397949#post9397949

maybe you will respond with an explanation unlike some others.

 

[gibsyhesperis]

You should check Richards record against the WI quicks :

http://www.cricketcountry.com/artic...perform-against-the-west-indian-quicks-203715

Discussed here :

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ce-of-the-last-50-years&p=9397949#post9397949

maybe you will respond with an explanation unlike some others.

Calm down
I was referring to Viv, not Barry (hence the comment about his eye -- Barry Richards was more orthodox than Viv).
Actually I agree (with far less childish vitriol) that Barry Richards cannot be assessed as he did not play enough Test cricket

 

[Tusker]

Calm down
I was referring to Viv, not Barry (hence the comment about his eye -- Barry Richards was more orthodox than Viv).
Actually I agree (with far less childish vitriol) that Barry Richards cannot be assessed as he did not play enough Test cricket

Try clicking one of the links on that post it wont bite

 

[gibsyhesperis]

I think another point that has not been mentioned is that of protective headgear and the two bouncer rule. Viv, Gavaskar etc played most of their cricket (in Viv's case all) before helmets became de rigueur. The element of courage was thus totally different compared to now -- the risk of a life threatening injury was always there (Nari Contractor having his skull fractured in the West Indies etc). Whilst of course, the advent of helmets is to welcomed (no game is worth dying for) it has changed how players should be assessed.
Also the English pushed through the two bouncer rule through, after being tired of being battered by the West Indian quicks -- before this batsmen could face a real barrage unless the umpire stepped in for intimidation.

 

[gibsyhesperis]

Try clicking one of the links on that post it wont bite

Fair point -- and indeed the true test of a player is how you perform against the best of your era. I guess we will never know how Viv would have performed against them but you're correct in the figures don't lie.
Guess it has to be Gavaskar then as he was the only player I saw who scored against them esp in 76

 

[Napa]

You should check Richards record against the WI quicks :

http://www.cricketcountry.com/artic...perform-against-the-west-indian-quicks-203715

Nice link showing Richards' lack of performance against the very best bowling of his time.

While Vivian Richards has played some great attacking innings, but <b>overall</b> he comes nowhere close to Gavaskar in class.

Compared to Richards, Gavaskar:

1) had to play better bowling.

2) had to open (openers should have about 5 runs added to their average to make it a fair comparison).

3) had greater longevity and scored more total runs.

4) had an higher average (even with no runs added for opening).

Anyone who ignore statistical facts and thinks Richards is better than Gavaskar is delusional and not worth engaging in discussion.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

I would say Amla and Sanga in their prime were ahead of KP in his prime. Yes KP brutalized some pace attacks, but he was Asif's bunny, and could not handle the seaming ball.

Inzy was a quality player against pace, but never managed to succeed on bouncy tracks in Oz in test cricket, which has to be held against him if we are talking about the 'best ever'.

Tendulkar should be higher up. The guy did not just brutalize Wasim and Waqar, but also Shoaib. Played some quality knocks against the aussies on their home turf as well.

very valid argument.However both not as attacking or agressive who could pulverise opposition as much.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Having seen all of the players in the list when they were in their prime, for me the best two were Gavaskar and Richards. Gavaskar was technically correct and scored against the West Indian quicks. Richards had a great eye and was truly brutal and dismissive of the quicks

More or less agree However Gavaskar was relatively defensive and not as skilled on the bouncy tracks.Reda what Andy Roberts states abot Sunny on fast,bouncy tracks when compared to Vishwantha.No doubt supreme but take into account most of his hundreds v West Indies came against the weaker West Indies attacks in 1971 and 1979 and he missed WSC.It is not only about statistics but ability to dominate opposition.No doubt Gavaskar was the best defensive player against pace.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Lol at Inzi above Sachin, Inzi failed in Australia and South Africa so I would never have him above Sachin. Sachin whilst he never dominated a series in those countries he had a decent enough record versus some good attacks.

In recent times I'll go with Ponting as the best player versus genuine pace, whilst of all time you could go with Viv, Sunil, or Chappel.

Very valid arguments stats wise corect but I ma alos considering ability to take apart genuine pace where Inzy displayed more ability.Juts consider Inzy in the Carribaen and against West Indian quickies.Gret point on Ponting.Personally I rtae Ian Chappell ahead of Greg versus genuine pace.He played the bouncing bal better.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

I think another point that has not been mentioned is that of protective headgear and the two bouncer rule. Viv, Gavaskar etc played most of their cricket (in Viv's case all) before helmets became de rigueur. The element of courage was thus totally different compared to now -- the risk of a life threatening injury was always there (Nari Contractor having his skull fractured in the West Indies etc). Whilst of course, the advent of helmets is to welcomed (no game is worth dying for) it has changed how players should be assessed.
Also the English pushed through the two bouncer rule through, after being tired of being battered by the West Indian quicks -- before this batsmen could face a real barrage unless the umpire stepped in for intimidation.

great point.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Nice link showing Richards' lack of performance against the very best bowling of his time.

While Vivian Richards has played some great attacking innings, but <b>overall</b> he comes nowhere close to Gavaskar in class.



Compared to Richards, Gavaskar:

1) had to play better bowling.

2) had to open (openers should have about 5 runs added to their average to make it a fair comparison).

3) had greater longevity and scored more total runs.

4) had an higher average (even with no runs added for opening).

Anyone who ignore statistical facts and thinks Richards is better than Gavaskar is delusional and not worth engaging in discussion.

Please consider Viv against Australia in WSC averaging 86.2 in 1977-78 and averaging 96.50 in official cricket in 1979-80.Viv decimated great pace twice as much as Sunny if you remember his assaults on Lillee and Pascoe and could turn the complexion of matches.Read what Lille has to say about Viv.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Nice link showing Richards' lack of performance against the very best bowling of his time.

While Vivian Richards has played some great attacking innings, but <b>overall</b> he comes nowhere close to Gavaskar in class.

Compared to Richards, Gavaskar:

1) had to play better bowling.

2) had to open (openers should have about 5 runs added to their average to make it a fair comparison).

3) had greater longevity and scored more total runs.

4) had an higher average (even with no runs added for opening).

Anyone who ignore statistical facts and thinks Richards is better than Gavaskar is delusional and not worth engaging in discussion.

Not denying he was close to the greatest but were not 8 of Sunny's 13 centuries against West Indies versus the lesser attacks without the great quickies.Infact aginst the great quartet he averaged around 43-44 in 11 tests .Take into acount Viv's phenomenal record averaging 86.2 in WSC supertests in 1977-78 an his average of 96.50 in Australia in 1979-80.Viv could turn the complexion of games considerably more.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Fair point -- and indeed the true test of a player is how you perform against the best of your era. I guess we will never know how Viv would have performed against them but you're correct in the figures don't lie.
Guess it has to be Gavaskar then as he was the only player I saw who scored against them esp in 76

How would you rate Lara ,Sobers or Tendulkar with them or Ponting?

 

[cricketjoshila]

Very valid arguments stats wise corect but I ma alos considering ability to take apart genuine pace where Inzy displayed more ability.Juts consider Inzy in the Carribaen and against West Indian quickies.Gret point on Ponting.Personally I rtae Ian Chappell ahead of Greg versus genuine pace.He played the bouncing bal better.

What is the this ability?Any measurement of this?Or is this like that mythical talent which cannot be measured by performance?

Inzamam was a avg player of fast bowling and that has been proved by his lack of runs in Aus and SA.

I am not counting your biased opinion though.

 

[Napa]

Please consider Viv against Australia in WSC averaging 86.2 in 1977-78 and averaging 96.50 in official cricket in 1979-80.

You can't pick and choose particular years if you are going to compare players. You have to look at their performance over their entire careers.

Viv decimated great pace twice as much as Sunny if you remember his assaults on Lillee and Pascoe and could turn the complexion of matches.

"twice as much"? The numbers don't say so. Also look at link provided by [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] showing Richard's poor performance in domestic cricket against the WI pacers.

Read what Lille has to say about Viv.

Lots of players say lots of complimentary things about lots of players. Richards was a great player no doubt, but Lillie's compliments do not make him greater than Gavaskar. To the best of my knowledge, Richards never inspired the kind of respect to have a song written about him by someone from the opposing country.

"It was Gavaskar
De real master
Just like a wall
We couldn't out Gavaskar at all, not at all
You know the West Indies couldn't out Gavaskar at all"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V2UUuKcIeA

It is stats over their entire careers which is the only valid measure for comparing players.

 

[sshakir411]

Didn't see Richards and others during his time. But what I do know for sure is that from the 90s there was no batsman better than Ricky Ponting of genuine pace bowling. Punter wipes the floor with Sachin, Laxman, Inzi combined.

 

[Hasan123]

Very valid arguments stats wise corect but I ma alos considering ability to take apart genuine pace where Inzy displayed more ability.Juts consider Inzy in the Carribaen and against West Indian quickies.Gret point on Ponting.Personally I rtae Ian Chappell ahead of Greg versus genuine pace.He played the bouncing bal better.

Inzi could take apart genuine pace but failed in Australia and South Africa so for me I don't think you can rate him higher than Sachin versus pace.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Very valid arguments stats wise corect but I ma alos considering ability to take apart genuine pace where Inzy displayed more ability.Juts consider Inzy in the Carribaen and against West Indian quickies.Gret point on Ponting.Personally I rtae Ian Chappell ahead of Greg versus genuine pace.He played the bouncing bal better.

If performance isnt the cricteria how do you measure ability?Inzy was a very avg player of pace bowling and the stats show that.

Samaraweera has great numbers in SA.Doesnt make him a great player of fast bowling.

 

[Cric1234]

Kallis must be close averaged 55 at home next best South African is Amla with 45.

 

[Justcrazy]

The way Viv played the fast bowlers , no one comes close. He no doubt should be best at playing express pace,.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Viv, Gavaskar, G Chappell, and Ponting

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Viv, Gavaskar, G Chappell, and Ponting

Great choices .still I preferred Ian Chappell to brother Greg.Ian was better against the bouncing ball who mastered the hook shot.How do you rate him?How would you place Lara,Sachin and Inzamam?

 

[Rightarmfast]

You should check Richards record against the WI quicks :

http://www.cricketcountry.com/artic...perform-against-the-west-indian-quicks-203715

Discussed here :

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ce-of-the-last-50-years&p=9397949#post9397949

maybe you will respond with an explanation unlike some others.

Very informative post! Thanks for that. Enough to break the myth of Viv

 

[cricketjoshila]

[MENTION=132062]Harsh Thakor[/MENTION]

I am waiting for your response.

1.What has Barry Richards done vs WI fast bowlers in WSC to hype him up more than 10k runs of Gavaskar?

2.What is your measurement of ability if not performance as Inzamam was poor againist fast bowlers?

If you make a list and OP atleast defend it.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

[MENTION=132062]Harsh Thakor[/MENTION]

I am waiting for your response.

1.What has Barry Richards done vs WI fast bowlers in WSC to hype him up more than 10k runs of Gavaskar?

2.What is your measurement of ability if not performance as Inzamam was poor againist fast bowlers?

If you make a list and OP atleast defend it.

1.ON BARRY RICHARDS

Cricket is not all about statistics.Bary Richards in WSC on a most testing wicket scored an unbeaten 101 to win match on a most difficult wicket in 1978 ,outscoring Viv Richards.Earlier in 197-78 he also outscored Viv scoring 207.He faced great paceman like Dennis Lillee and Len Pascoe .In 1973 in fc match he scored 356 facing Lillee.
Not for nothing Bradman chose Bary in his all-time xi instead of Gavaskar,John Woodcock ranked Bary ahead of Sunil in his al-time list or even Graham Gooch,Dennis Lillee,Martin Crowe ,David Gower and Dicky Bird.True Suny won more votes for the all-time xi but still many experts ranked Bary ahead.Remember the standard of cricket in WSC nad waht players like Imran ,Viv and the Chapel brothers or even Lillee had to say about it's standard.Barry was more aesthetic than Gavaskar, a gretaer potential match-winner and considerably more destructive or dominating.Bradman even preferred Barry to Hobbs and Hutton because of this.Fascinating Bradmna rated Barry the best batsmen he saw in the 1970's.Richards averaged 109.86 in the 1970-71 Sheffield Shield, in which he played for South Australia and became only the second man after Bradman to register a century against all opponents. Against Western Australia he scored 325 of his 356 - 198 in boundaries - in a single day against an attack that bristled with the varying threats posed by Graham McKenzie, Dennis Lillee, Tony Lock, Tony Mann, John Inverarity and Ian Brayshaw. On the fastest of pitches at Perth !Thus he did not face the West Indian s,but his best batting against other great speedster reveal his phenomenal ability .


Alos even if arguably even the best of all batsmen 8 of Sunny's centuries were scored against the weaker West Indian attacks and only 3 against the great quartet.His average against the great pace battery was around 44 and in 1983-84 in 20 innings scored over 50 only 4 times.Ofcourse considering he had a phenomenal average in 1970-71 and 1978-79 he may have done very well even if facing the top quartet.Statistically against the top 4 Calypso pacema together I rank Greg Chappel ahead and morally Graham Gooch.In terms of pure style Gavaskar was the greatest of defensive batsmen although there were exceptions like his 129 at Delhi and 90 at Ahmedabad.

On pure stats Gavaskar would be the best,maybe the bets opening or test batsmen ever but not in terms of domination or as a match-winner.Not a joke that Barry even overshadowed the great Viv in his 2 best knock sin WSC .Conisdering the bowling Barry faced there and to an extent Suny's luck in playing Australian and West Indies sides without WSC players.

Quoting Mark Nicholas


Mark Nicholas: Barry Richards – A Genius In Straight Lines
October 9th, 2014



One-time AOC guest editor Mark Nicholas explains what made the great South African batsman Barry Richards his favourite player.

To me, cricket’s greatest appeal is in the aesthetics, and particularly in straight lines – I’ve always preferred say, Tendulkar to Lara – which isn’t to say I don’t like Lara – just that I like the exactness of straight lines.

When I first saw Barry, what I loved was the time he had to play, however challenging the bowler. Jeff Thomson was the first truly fast bowler I saw bowl at Barry and Barry had time to play him. He played fantastically, scoring 90-odd at Southampton against the Australian tourists in 1975. I liked the exactness of his technique, both against speed and spin.
Y

And then what I loved most of all was that he could use that to his advantage with his great sense of adventure. So, even when he was hitting inside out over extra cover – which in those days people didn’t really do – or backing away and late cutting, he was still doing it from a perfect technical foundation.

It may be that your thing is the Kevin Pietersen flamingo shot or the Garry Sobers back-foot drive from a half-volley. But mine was Barry using his imagination and sense of adventure to provide something close to perfect both when defending and attacking.

So risqué could he be that when you went to watch him you spent your time fearing he’d get out. That added such a frisson to the moments. But the truth is, Barry set out to entertain. He brought joy to a lot of people, but through that determination to entertain he also brought frustration – particularly in his own team, who could see that he when he got out for 100, he should have got 150 or 200. Instead, often he’d just hit it up in the air, because he’d got bored with the challenge.

People say it’s impossible to judge him because he only played four Test matches. That is a perfectly fair argument, but equally history shows that every challenge put before him, he rose to. When he went to play in the Sheffield Shield, his record was sans pareil. When he played in World Series Cricket, he thrived – I’ll never forget the fighting innings that won the Super Test Final against the Australians – when they threw everything at him, he made an unbeaten hundred and saw the Rest of the World through. His double hundred at Gloucester Park in conjunction with the other great strokemaking Richards – Viv – was also very special. In England, when the tourists came, Barry made runs against them. I believe that Test cricket would have been the next challenge that he would have mastered.

Of all the great honours that have been bestowed upon him in words, the one that might mean the most was being selected in Donald Bradman’s all-time XI – that gave him a rubber stamp from someone whose opinions became almost as important as his own batting.

Barry combined everything that I wanted out of batting and could do it all as if it was a walk in the park.

Courtesy Madhusudhan Ramakrishnan

Performance of top batsmen in World Series Cricket Batsman Team Matches Innings Runs 100 50 Average
Barry Richards World XI 5 8 554 2 2 79.14
Vivian Richards West Indies and World XI 14 25 1281 4 4 55.69
Greg Chappell Australia 14 26 1415 5 4 56.60
David Hookes Australia 12 22 769 1 7 38.45
Clive Lloyd West Indies and World XI 13 21 683 1 3 37.94
Gordon Greenidge West Indies and World XI 13 23 754 1 4 35.90
Ian Chappell Australia 14 27 893 1 5 35.72

WSC was the most difficult test for batsmen due to incredible line up of pace bowlers present then. Many batsmen failed to perform at the end of the series and only a few were able to counter the aggressive bowling consistently. While the performance of Roberts, Holding, Lillee and Imran was more or less expected considering their reputation, the showing of the South African all-rounder Mike Procter and Garth le Roux was highly impressive. Dennis Lillee picked up the most wickets for Australia and was ably supported by Max Walker and later Jeff Thomson.

Jeff Thomson on the best batsmen he ever bolwed to:

The best batsmen you bowled to?
Viv Richards, Greg Chappell and Barry Richards were easily the best. Sunil Gavaskar was also a brilliant player of fast bowling. You can see it in his record. He scored runs against the great West Indies teams in the Caribbean, he was very successful in Australia. He knew how to play fast bowling. But Viv, Greg and Barry were the best I ever faced. It's a shame Barry couldn't play more Tests because of the South Africa situation.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

[MENTION=132062]Harsh Thakor[/MENTION]

I am waiting for your response.

1.What has Barry Richards done vs WI fast bowlers in WSC to hype him up more than 10k runs of Gavaskar?

2.What is your measurement of ability if not performance as Inzamam was poor against fast bowlers?

If you make a list and OP atleast defend it.

Inzamam's record v West Indies facing likes of Ambrose,Walsh and Bishop in 1993,1997 and 2000.

v West Indies 1993-2006 15 24 3 1124 177 53.52 2123 52.94

In West Indies
1993-2005 7 12 1 634 135 57.63 1154 54.93 3 3 0 77 2 view innings


Averaging 57.63 on the Carribean tracks facing Ambrose,Walsh and Bishop.Outscored Tendulkar in West Indies.Statistically Sachin is better in Australia and South Africa but dominated great fast-medium bowlers like Glen Mcgrath.Inzy attacked great pace with more confidence and also won more matches.He was class act in South Afric in 1994 and at his best could dominate great paceman better than Sachin.Tendulkar was definitely better as a defensive batsmen but did not tear apart Dale Steyn in 2011 or Alan Donald,even if he made big scores.On stats Tendulkar is certainly better but we have to measure the runs he scored against each genuinely quick bowler in term s of dominating oposition.Most of Sachin's runs were against the great fast-medium and spin bowlers.

To sum it Tendulkar or Lara beter in stats,but in pure skill I choose Inzamam.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

[MENTION=132062]Harsh Thakor[/MENTION]

I am waiting for your response.

1.What has Barry Richards done vs WI fast bowlers in WSC to hype him up more than 10k runs of Gavaskar?

2.What is your measurement of ability if not performance as Inzamam was poor againist fast bowlers?

If you make a list and OP atleast defend it.

Quoting great South African fast bowler Allan Donald in cricinfo

ALLAN DONALD

:Bowling to Inzy was almost like bowling to a brick wall. Everything about him was unfazed, nothing could rattle him - he was so solid. He was very calm of nature, and even as captain you felt he never got angry. The only time I saw him angry was when Pakistan were called off the field at The Oval last year.

As a batsman he was a very, very difficult guy to bowl to. He was not the most elegant batsman ever seen, but he was very effective in his own way - a bit like Steve Waugh; and I'm not comparing him to Steve Waugh, just comparing their natures. Inzi was very resilient and put a very high price on his wicket.

When he was playing really well he had all the time in the world and all the shots to go with it. He played from quite deep in the crease and that gave him more time. The minute you started coming a bit fuller, thinking you might get him through the gate, the timing of his shots was incredible. He had such good balance for a big guy.

Our strategy was to bowl a little bit fuller and make sure that it was on the off stump, and not middle and off, because he was very good working the ball off the stumps. In the first 15-20 balls he didn't really look to get into the ball or at the ball on the front foot, so we concentrated on bowling fuller and finishing on the off stump. Then we would try peppering in the short one from time to time, because the bounce had been his undoing here in South Africa sometimes.

You can't compare Inzy to any of his team-mates, or even former Pakistan batsmen. This guy, to me, was the one batsman who showed a bit more real guts: to get out there, apply himself, get over the hot period and get himself in

Allan Donald

But over a period of time we realised we were wasting our time trying to bounce him early on because he almost wanted us to do that. What made our job difficult was he was very patient, and that was because he was very disciplined: He left a lot of balls and was a good judge of pitches and how to leave balls on the bounce or lack of bounce. He was good at wearing bowlers down. Sometimes it felt as though if anything was going to get him out it was him getting bored and playing a rash shot or running himself out. Mentally you couldn't upset him. It didn't matter what you said. In that respect he is like Jacques Kallis.

You can't compare Inzy to any of his team-mates, or even former Pakistan batsmen. This guy, to me, was the one batsman who showed a bit more real guts: to get out there, apply himself, get over the hot period and get himself in.

He was no doubt a great batsman and he would be in my top five: Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Steve Waugh, Inzamam-ul-Haq and Mike Atherton.

Favourite Inzamam shot My favourite Inzy shot was the straight drive. He didn't really look to hit through the line to a ball that was full: he would always hit it down the ground past the bowler, the hallmark of a top-class player.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

[MENTION=132062]Harsh Thakor[/MENTION]

I am waiting for your response.

1.What has Barry Richards done vs WI fast bowlers in WSC to hype him up more than 10k runs of Gavaskar?

2.What is your measurement of ability if not performance as Inzamam was poor againist fast bowlers?

If you make a list and OP atleast defend it.

Former Pakistan speedster Shoaib Akhtar said his former team-mate and skipper Inzamam-ul-Haq played him better than any other batsman in the world.

Shoaib, one of the fastest bowlers to have ever played the game, took a career tally of 444 international wickets.

The 41-year-old said of all the batsmen he bowled to, including batting legends Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara and Ricky Ponting, no one played him better than his legendary team-mate. (Also read: Shoaib Akhtar turns 41: Some unknown facts that you must know about the 'Rawalpindi Express')

"There were a lot of players in the world (I found difficult to get out) but the most difficult, who I couldn't even get out in the nets, was Inzamam," Shoaib was quoted as saying by fellow team-mate and pace bowling legend Wasim Akram's talk show The Sportsman, reports cricket.com.au.

"I think there was no other player who played me better than him. His footwork was quick, he would place himself and be ready to play. He could see the ball earlier than many. I always thought he had an extra second. However fast I bowled, he had placed himself where the ball would land," he added.

 

[Bewal Express]

From the ones i have seen against Genuine pace:
Viv Richards
Ricky Ponting
Martin Crowe
Allan Lamb
Aravinda De Silva

 

[Tusker]

Very informative post! Thanks for that. Enough to break the myth of Viv

Thanks, but ironically that link was originally posted by a Viv Richards supporter - [MENTION=131038]badsha001[/MENTION] - without realizing that it was a critical analysis of Viv. He never posted again on that thread BTW !!. Link to that thread --> http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...t-A-Genius-of-His-Generation-Imran-Khan/page2

 

[Bewal Express]

Stats cannot show how good Richards was against genuine pace. As readers will know, Lara and Tendulkar often got hit on the helmet, whereas Richards never batted with a helmet againt Lillee, Thompson, Hogg, Pascoe, IK,Willis etc.

 

[Tusker]

Stats cannot show how good Richards was against genuine pace.

They do ... unless you think Inzamam is a great player of fast bowling with ordinary stats in SA and AUS.

Similarly the best fast bowlers of Viv's tine were his fellow Windies fast bowlers whom he could only face in county cricket and domestic matches.

As readers will know, Lara and Tendulkar often got hit on the helmet, whereas Richards never batted with a helmet againt Lillee, Thompson, Hogg, Pascoe, IK,Willis etc.

Its a myth that Richards never got hit. He was hit by Lenny Pascoe.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Quoting great South African fast bowler Allan Donald in cricinfo.

ALLAN DONALD

:Bowling to Inzy was almost like bowling to a brick wall. Everything about him was unfazed, nothing could rattle him - he was so solid. He was very calm of nature, and even as captain you felt he never got angry. The only time I saw him angry was when Pakistan were called off the field at The Oval last year.

As a batsman he was a very, very difficult guy to bowl to. He was not the most elegant batsman ever seen, but he was very effective in his own way - a bit like Steve Waugh; and I'm not comparing him to Steve Waugh, just comparing their natures. Inzi was very resilient and put a very high price on his wicket.

When he was playing really well he had all the time in the world and all the shots to go with it. He played from quite deep in the crease and that gave him more time. The minute you started coming a bit fuller, thinking you might get him through the gate, the timing of his shots was incredible. He had such good balance for a big guy.

Our strategy was to bowl a little bit fuller and make sure that it was on the off stump, and not middle and off, because he was very good working the ball off the stumps. In the first 15-20 balls he didn't really look to get into the ball or at the ball on the front foot, so we concentrated on bowling fuller and finishing on the off stump. Then we would try peppering in the short one from time to time, because the bounce had been his undoing here in South Africa sometimes.

You can't compare Inzy to any of his team-mates, or even former Pakistan batsmen. This guy, to me, was the one batsman who showed a bit more real guts: to get out there, apply himself, get over the hot period and get himself in

Allan Donald

But over a period of time we realised we were wasting our time trying to bounce him early on because he almost wanted us to do that. What made our job difficult was he was very patient, and that was because he was very disciplined: He left a lot of balls and was a good judge of pitches and how to leave balls on the bounce or lack of bounce. He was good at wearing bowlers down. Sometimes it felt as though if anything was going to get him out it was him getting bored and playing a rash shot or running himself out. Mentally you couldn't upset him. It didn't matter what you said. In that respect he is like Jacques Kallis.

You can't compare Inzy to any of his team-mates, or even former Pakistan batsmen. This guy, to me, was the one batsman who showed a bit more real guts: to get out there, apply himself, get over the hot period and get himself in.

He was no doubt a great batsman and he would be in my top five: Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara, Steve Waugh, Inzamam-ul-Haq and Mike Atherton.

Favourite Inzamam shot My favourite Inzy shot was the straight drive. He didn't really look to hit through the line to a ball that was full: he would always hit it down the ground past the bowler, the hallmark of a top-class player.

ALLAN DONALD ON SACHIN TENDULKAR

People go to a Test match just to watch Tendulkar. I, for one, would rather watch him than bowl against him. Actually, I'm glad I'll never have to bowl to him in a Test match again, though I've been quite successful against him. He is No. 1 in my book - the best player I have ever had the privilege of bowling to. There's Steve Waugh and there's Brian Lara, who was wonderful in 1995, but Tendulkar is a class above, consistently special.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/sachin/content/story/434423.html

Glenn Mcgrath on Tendulkar

Sachin Tendulkar: He is up there obviously, such a quality batsman. Technically so good. From a young age he grew up with a cricket bat in his hand. Mentally so strong. To play for 24 years in just incredible. You got to have real love and passion for the game. He had the technique to destroy attacks, also has the patience to bat all day. Great package. If you are so great it is not one thing that stands out, it has to be greatness across the board. A complete batsman.

http://www.thehindu.com/sport/cricket/mcgrath-picks-his-top-five-batsmen/article7342432.ece

Ambrose on Tendulkar

Ambrose also said a few words on India’s batting maestro, Sachin Tendulkar, “He has to be one of the greatest batsmen ever to play this game — no two ways about it. He would be in my top five batsmen of all time.”

There are a few tricks we bowlers try to unsettle batsmen but you couldn’t ruffle Tendulkar. I still gave him my stare as it was part of my game but I knew it was not going to work because he was such a composed person. You couldn’t psych him out. He would go about his business like there was nothing else going on around him, apart from facing that ball. He had serious powers of concentration and I never saw him become emotional. If I saw him play a bad stroke, whereas some guys will hit their bat into the ground or their pads and chastise themselves, the most he would do was walk towards square leg to regain his composure,” he says.

Ambrose claims that though Tendulkar played alongside some of greatest batsmen in the Indian team, like Rahul Dravid, V V S Laxman and Sourav Ganguly, he simply stood out because of his ability to bat for a long time.

“I am focusing on Sachin because of his incredible achievements over his career but that is no way meant as any disrespect to his team-mates like Rahul Dravid, V.V.S. Laxman and Sourav Ganguly, who were also fine batsmen.

"Tendulkar was just a cut above because of his supreme will to bat and bat. Dravid and Ganguly were different from Tendulkar because they would give you a chance and would occasionally play at deliveries they should not have played at. Tendulkar’s lapses were few,” he concurred.

You want more? You really want to compare what players have to say about Tendulkar and Inzy?
[MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION] [MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION]

 

[cricketjoshila]

1.ON BARRY RICHARDS

Cricket is not all about statistics.Bary Richards in WSC on a most testing wicket scored an unbeaten 101 to win match on a most difficult wicket in 1978 ,outscoring Viv Richards.Earlier in 197-78 he also outscored Viv scoring 207.He faced great paceman like Dennis Lillee and Len Pascoe .In 1973 in fc match he scored 356 facing Lillee.
Not for nothing Bradman chose Bary in his all-time xi instead of Gavaskar,John Woodcock ranked Bary ahead of Sunil in his al-time list or even Graham Gooch,Dennis Lillee,Martin Crowe ,David Gower and Dicky Bird.True Suny won more votes for the all-time xi but still many experts ranked Bary ahead.Remember the standard of cricket in WSC nad waht players like Imran ,Viv and the Chapel brothers or even Lillee had to say about it's standard.Barry was more aesthetic than Gavaskar, a gretaer potential match-winner and considerably more destructive or dominating.Bradman even preferred Barry to Hobbs and Hutton because of this.Fascinating Bradmna rated Barry the best batsmen he saw in the 1970's.Richards averaged 109.86 in the 1970-71 Sheffield Shield, in which he played for South Australia and became only the second man after Bradman to register a century against all opponents. Against Western Australia he scored 325 of his 356 - 198 in boundaries - in a single day against an attack that bristled with the varying threats posed by Graham McKenzie, Dennis Lillee, Tony Lock, Tony Mann, John Inverarity and Ian Brayshaw. On the fastest of pitches at Perth !Thus he did not face the West Indian s,but his best batting against other great speedster reveal his phenomenal ability .


Alos even if arguably even the best of all batsmen 8 of Sunny's centuries were scored against the weaker West Indian attacks and only 3 against the great quartet.His average against the great pace battery was around 44 and in 1983-84 in 20 innings scored over 50 only 4 times.Ofcourse considering he had a phenomenal average in 1970-71 and 1978-79 he may have done very well even if facing the top quartet.Statistically against the top 4 Calypso pacema together I rank Greg Chappel ahead and morally Graham Gooch.In terms of pure style Gavaskar was the greatest of defensive batsmen although there were exceptions like his 129 at Delhi and 90 at Ahmedabad.

On pure stats Gavaskar would be the best,maybe the bets opening or test batsmen ever but not in terms of domination or as a match-winner.Not a joke that Barry even overshadowed the great Viv in his 2 best knock sin WSC .Conisdering the bowling Barry faced there and to an extent Suny's luck in playing Australian and West Indies sides without WSC players.

Quoting Mark Nicholas


Mark Nicholas: Barry Richards – A Genius In Straight Lines
October 9th, 2014



One-time AOC guest editor Mark Nicholas explains what made the great South African batsman Barry Richards his favourite player.

To me, cricket’s greatest appeal is in the aesthetics, and particularly in straight lines – I’ve always preferred say, Tendulkar to Lara – which isn’t to say I don’t like Lara – just that I like the exactness of straight lines.

When I first saw Barry, what I loved was the time he had to play, however challenging the bowler. Jeff Thomson was the first truly fast bowler I saw bowl at Barry and Barry had time to play him. He played fantastically, scoring 90-odd at Southampton against the Australian tourists in 1975. I liked the exactness of his technique, both against speed and spin.
Y

And then what I loved most of all was that he could use that to his advantage with his great sense of adventure. So, even when he was hitting inside out over extra cover – which in those days people didn’t really do – or backing away and late cutting, he was still doing it from a perfect technical foundation.

It may be that your thing is the Kevin Pietersen flamingo shot or the Garry Sobers back-foot drive from a half-volley. But mine was Barry using his imagination and sense of adventure to provide something close to perfect both when defending and attacking.

So risqué could he be that when you went to watch him you spent your time fearing he’d get out. That added such a frisson to the moments. But the truth is, Barry set out to entertain. He brought joy to a lot of people, but through that determination to entertain he also brought frustration – particularly in his own team, who could see that he when he got out for 100, he should have got 150 or 200. Instead, often he’d just hit it up in the air, because he’d got bored with the challenge.

People say it’s impossible to judge him because he only played four Test matches. That is a perfectly fair argument, but equally history shows that every challenge put before him, he rose to. When he went to play in the Sheffield Shield, his record was sans pareil. When he played in World Series Cricket, he thrived – I’ll never forget the fighting innings that won the Super Test Final against the Australians – when they threw everything at him, he made an unbeaten hundred and saw the Rest of the World through. His double hundred at Gloucester Park in conjunction with the other great strokemaking Richards – Viv – was also very special. In England, when the tourists came, Barry made runs against them. I believe that Test cricket would have been the next challenge that he would have mastered.

Of all the great honours that have been bestowed upon him in words, the one that might mean the most was being selected in Donald Bradman’s all-time XI – that gave him a rubber stamp from someone whose opinions became almost as important as his own batting.

Barry combined everything that I wanted out of batting and could do it all as if it was a walk in the park.

Courtesy Madhusudhan Ramakrishnan

Performance of top batsmen in World Series Cricket Batsman Team Matches Innings Runs 100 50 Average
Barry Richards World XI 5 8 554 2 2 79.14
Vivian Richards West Indies and World XI 14 25 1281 4 4 55.69
Greg Chappell Australia 14 26 1415 5 4 56.60
David Hookes Australia 12 22 769 1 7 38.45
Clive Lloyd West Indies and World XI 13 21 683 1 3 37.94
Gordon Greenidge West Indies and World XI 13 23 754 1 4 35.90
Ian Chappell Australia 14 27 893 1 5 35.72

WSC was the most difficult test for batsmen due to incredible line up of pace bowlers present then. Many batsmen failed to perform at the end of the series and only a few were able to counter the aggressive bowling consistently. While the performance of Roberts, Holding, Lillee and Imran was more or less expected considering their reputation, the showing of the South African all-rounder Mike Procter and Garth le Roux was highly impressive. Dennis Lillee picked up the most wickets for Australia and was ably supported by Max Walker and later Jeff Thomson.

Jeff Thomson on the best batsmen he ever bolwed to:

The best batsmen you bowled to?
Viv Richards, Greg Chappell and Barry Richards were easily the best. Sunil Gavaskar was also a brilliant player of fast bowling. You can see it in his record. He scored runs against the great West Indies teams in the Caribbean, he was very successful in Australia. He knew how to play fast bowling. But Viv, Greg and Barry were the best I ever faced. It's a shame Barry couldn't play more Tests because of the South Africa situation.

Barry Richards scored almost next to nothing againist WI fast bowlers in WSC.So what are you comparing him with Gavaskar's centuries againist WI?

Yes Barry Richards made some runs againist the unofficial Aussie side of WSC. Gavaskar made runs againist Imran Hadlee and Aussies too.Many more runs than Barry Richards ever did. 10000 runs in Test cricket.

Do you really want to talk about what players have to say about Gavaskar?Holding Marshall Imran etc?

Now please bring actual performances and records and not heresay. And stats matter because they reflect performance.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Former Pakistan speedster Shoaib Akhtar said his former team-mate and skipper Inzamam-ul-Haq played him better than any other batsman in the world.

Shoaib, one of the fastest bowlers to have ever played the game, took a career tally of 444 international wickets.

The 41-year-old said of all the batsmen he bowled to, including batting legends Sachin Tendulkar, Brian Lara and Ricky Ponting, no one played him better than his legendary team-mate. (Also read: Shoaib Akhtar turns 41: Some unknown facts that you must know about the 'Rawalpindi Express')

"There were a lot of players in the world (I found difficult to get out) but the most difficult, who I couldn't even get out in the nets, was Inzamam," Shoaib was quoted as saying by fellow team-mate and pace bowling legend Wasim Akram's talk show The Sportsman, reports cricket.com.au.

"I think there was no other player who played me better than him. His footwork was quick, he would place himself and be ready to play. He could see the ball earlier than many. I always thought he had an extra second. However fast I bowled, he had placed himself where the ball would land," he added.

Nets is equal to test match arena?Really now?

Please bring actual stats.

Btw Akhtar also said Tendulkar is the greatest batsman he bowled to.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Inzamam's record v West Indies facing likes of Ambrose,Walsh and Bishop in 1993,1997 and 2000.

v West Indies 1993-2006 15 24 3 1124 177 53.52 2123 52.94

In West Indies
1993-2005 7 12 1 634 135 57.63 1154 54.93 3 3 0 77 2 view innings


Averaging 57.63 on the Carribean tracks facing Ambrose,Walsh and Bishop.Outscored Tendulkar in West Indies.Statistically Sachin is better in Australia and South Africa but dominated great fast-medium bowlers like Glen Mcgrath.Inzy attacked great pace with more confidence and also won more matches.He was class act in South Afric in 1994 and at his best could dominate great paceman better than Sachin.Tendulkar was definitely better as a defensive batsmen but did not tear apart Dale Steyn in 2011 or Alan Donald,even if he made big scores.On stats Tendulkar is certainly better but we have to measure the runs he scored against each genuinely quick bowler in term s of dominating oposition.Most of Sachin's runs were against the great fast-medium and spin bowlers.

To sum it Tendulkar or Lara beter in stats,but in pure skill I choose Inzamam.

This is biggest joke.What are skills if they dont result in performance.Inzamam is skillful but Inzamam didnt score runs. How many runs does Inzamam have in Australia and SA?Any idea?

Define Skill.How do you decide who is more skillful?

Coming to WI.

Till 2000 Tendulkar played 8 tests vs WI and Inzamam 9 tests.

Inzamam avgd 61.66 againist them

Tendulkar avgd 62.81 againist them

At Home

Inzamam avgd 136.50

Tendulkar avgd 67.00

Away in WI

Inzamam avgd 46.5

Tendulkar avgd 57.8


What are you on about?



[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION]

 

[Bewal Express]

They do ... unless you think Inzamam is a great player of fast bowling with ordinary stats in SA and AUS.

Similarly the best fast bowlers of Viv's tine were his fellow Windies fast bowlers whom he could only face in county cricket and domestic matches.



Its a myth that Richards never got hit. He was hit by Lenny Pascoe.

But it was rare, where it was the norm with likes of Lara, Tend and even Pointing.

 

[sshakir411]

Since we can't have any thread related to the best batsmen without Sachin fans getting offended...here's my 2 cents on Sachin vs Inzy in reference to playing fast bowling. Batsmen who are good against pace have a clear advantage in playing the short ball. Sachin in that aspect cannot match Inzy. While Sachin never threw his wicket to short pitch bowling he could not pull or hook to save his life (yeah, one six against Caddick doesn't count). Sachin's square cut against genuine pace wasn't that great as well...although Sachin was a better player of anything pitched up. Inzy was a far better player of the cut and pull shot and for that reason a better player of genuine pace but not the better batsman.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Since we can't have any thread related to the best batsmen without Sachin fans getting offended...here's my 2 cents on Sachin vs Inzy in reference to playing fast bowling. Batsmen who are good against pace have a clear advantage in playing the short ball. Sachin in that aspect cannot match Inzy. While Sachin never threw his wicket to short pitch bowling he could not pull or hook to save his life (yeah, one six against Caddick doesn't count). Sachin's square cut against genuine pace wasn't that great as well...although Sachin was a better player of anything pitched up. Inzy was a far better player of the cut and pull shot and for that reason a better player of genuine pace but not the better batsman.

So why this better cutter and puller failed in Australia and SA?

 

[htariq25]

Umar akmal
Adnan akmal
Kamran akmal
Faisal iqbal
Imran farhat

 

[Tusker]

But it was rare, where it was the norm with likes of Lara, Tend and even Pointing.

Norm. .. I recall only Shoaib , Waqar hitting SRT and Lara Once by Shoaib. Considering that SRT played 3 times as much cricket as Viv and he started much earlier and lasted much longer than Viv it would be much the same %.

 

[sshakir411]

So why this better cutter and puller failed in Australia and SA?

Inzy being a better cutter and puller has nothing to do with his performance in Australia and SA..unless you believe those 2 shots are the only ones played in those countries...Also I already stated Sachin is the better batsman but Inzy the better player of pace bowling and specifically short pitch pace bowling. You can be a great player of spin and still be a failure in India...maybe you should dig up the stats and find out how many short pitch balls Inzy was bowled to in Aus & SA and then we can debate if Inzy was or wasn't a better player of the short ball.

 

[Tusker]

.....
maybe you should dig up the stats and find out how many short pitch balls Inzy was bowled to in Aus & SA and then we can debate if Inzy was or wasn't a better player of the short ball.

This is easy to determine. ... Inzy never really survived long enough to face much bowling lol. And then there is the fact that SRT Played many more matches in Aus and SA than Inzy. Tendulkar will win easily.

 

[sshakir411]

This is easy to determine. ... Inzy never really survived long enough to face much bowling lol. And then there is the fact that SRT Played many more matches in Aus and SA than Inzy. Tendulkar will win easily.

go for it then..and while you're at it also pull up how Inzy got out in each of his innings in Aus & SA. Should be easy. Oh and for the record Tendulkar might win easily but he could still not play the pull to save entire India if he had to.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Inzy being a better cutter and puller has nothing to do with his performance in Australia and SA..unless you believe those 2 shots are the only ones played in those countries...Also I already stated Sachin is the better batsman but Inzy the better player of pace bowling and specifically short pitch pace bowling. You can be a great player of spin and still be a failure in India...maybe you should dig up the stats and find out how many short pitch balls Inzy was bowled to in Aus & SA and then we can debate if Inzy was or wasn't a better player of the short ball.

Inzy better player of pace bowling did jack in pace friendly nations of SA and AUS.If he was so good at handling bounce why did he fail on bouncy tracks of AUS and SA?

If Inzy was the better player,where are the runs?

 

[cricketjoshila]

go for it then..and while you're at it also pull up how Inzy got out in each of his innings in Aus & SA. Should be easy. Oh and for the record Tendulkar might win easily but he could still not play the pull to save entire India if he had to.

But he can still score far more runs than Inzy can.

 

[Cric1234]

Interestingly Tendulkar Ponting Richards averaged in the 30s in the last 5 years of their career.

 

[Abdullah719]

Interestingly Tendulkar Ponting Richards averaged in the 30s in the last 5 years of their career.

Tendulkar 52, Ponting 39.5 and Viv 41.5

 

[Cric1234]

Typo it wasn't last 5 years last 25 tests they averaged in the 30s.

 

[Bewal Express]

Norm. .. I recall only Shoaib , Waqar hitting SRT and Lara Once by Shoaib. Considering that SRT played 3 times as much cricket as Viv and he started much earlier and lasted much longer than Viv it would be much the same %.

Jimmy Anderson at Lords hit him full on, Wasim hit him in Sharjah and thats just from memory.

 

[sshakir411]

But he can still score far more runs than Inzy can.

He already has sir but that doesn't make him the best player of fast bowling.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Great choices .still I preferred Ian Chappell to brother Greg.Ian was better against the bouncing ball who mastered the hook shot.How do you rate him?How would you place Lara,Sachin and Inzamam?

Ian was really good. He actually averages 50+ batting at #3 which his higher than his career averages. This clearly shows how good he was against fast bowling.

Don't rate Lara and Tendulkar that high against pace bowling, though both were the finest players against spinners.

 

[cricketjoshila]

He already has sir but that doesn't make him the best player of fast bowling.

Better than Inzy for sure.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Since we can't have any thread related to the best batsmen without Sachin fans getting offended...here's my 2 cents on Sachin vs Inzy in reference to playing fast bowling. Batsmen who are good against pace have a clear advantage in playing the short ball..

Yeap Agreed, Inzi was great vs the short ball especially vs genuine 'FAST' Bowlers;

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7xokjGHZePI?ecver=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[R0H1T]

Ian was really good. He actually averages 50+ batting at #3 which his higher than his career averages. This clearly shows how good he was against fast bowling.

Don't rate Lara and Tendulkar that high against pace bowling, though both were the finest players against spinners.

That;s highly suspicious & I;d argue fairly inaccurate. Both of them did well against Lee, Shoaib, Bond, Donald et al. The key word being pace, not accurate fast bowlers which the 70's & 80's had plenty of. The lot of them are faster than most pacers from 2/3 decades back as per the speed gun measurement during WSC. The four have all clocked in excess of 150kph in tests IIRC.

 

[Chrish]

Ponting from 90s and onward

 

[Tusker]

This is biggest joke.What are skills if they dont result in performance.Inzamam is skillful but Inzamam didnt score runs. How many runs does Inzamam have in Australia and SA?Any idea?

Define Skill.How do you decide who is more skillful?

Coming to WI.

Till 2000 Tendulkar played 8 tests vs WI and Inzamam 9 tests.

Inzamam avgd 61.66 againist them

Tendulkar avgd 62.81 againist them

At Home

Inzamam avgd 136.50

Tendulkar avgd 67.00

Away in WI

Inzamam avgd 46.5

Tendulkar avgd 57.8.


What are you on about?

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] [MENTION=133315]Hitman[/MENTION]

good post

In Tendulkars time which also includes Inzi's career (and more on either side lol ) against AUS-SA-WI (Away): http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...n;team=6;team=7;template=results;type=batting


Tendulkar has more than twice the number of runs - 3 times as many hundreds as Inzi and more than a 10 point difference in Avg. Heck even Veeru has better stats than Inzi .... but but but stats don't mean anything when they go against your opinions.


Here is the same stat for batsmen from ALL countries in AUS-SA-WI during Tendulkars career :
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...9;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

[sshakir411]

Yeap Agreed, Inzi was great vs the short ball especially vs genuine 'FAST' Bowlers;

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7xokjGHZePI?ecver=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

so he got bowled one bouncer and he ducked..and then got out to a fast pitched up delivery. Not sure how you're able to determine someone's ability to play SHORT 'FAST' bowling based off that but I'm sure you (just like other Sachin fans) have supernatural understanding of the game...here's some videos you might enjoy of the great against short pitch 'FAST' bowling

so called best batsman can't even duck as well as Inzy..

can't even handle trundlers on a UAE pitch


It's pathetic how Sachin fans actually belittle his achievements by trying to convince everyone that he was the best at everything, he wasn't. No where did I say Inzy was a better batsman..just that he could judge the short ball better and specifically play the pull shot better. Sachin has scored more runs and proven to be a better all-round batsman than Inzy but you guys can't admit the FACT that he was not the best player of short pitch bowling. Makes me think you don't even know what made Sachin the greatest batsman of his time. It's actually a curse that the best batsman got the dumbest bunch of fans on the planet.

 

[sshakir411]

Just one more so we can all know that Sachin could not pick the short ball even in his younger days

 

[Romali_rotti]

Just one more so we can all know that Sachin could not pick the short ball even in his younger days

Here is your problem, no one was claiming SRT was the greatest puller or the greatest batsmen of PACE. Had you said INZI was one of the good batsmen going around during his time, it is acceptabl. However when you have Pakistanis claiming utter nonsense like Inzi is the greatest batsmen of PACE with poor records vs 2 teams SA & AUS who pretty much had the best quick bowling attacks during INZI's time, it really makes things comical.. Here is another tribute to the greatest batsmen of pace:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/QgUgNnvSgIY?ecver=1" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>