Best ever Test all-rounder from Asia

[Hyperion66]

again , see his games... the generation that did has very different views on tht...

You just can't call someone with less than 80 career wickets an allrounder, let alone a top one, period. Generation, nostalgia and everything else is secondary. BTW he was a very good batsman, never denied that.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

A bowler who can bat a bit CANNOT stay around for 50 overs to save a test in alien conditions.

I think some posters don't realize the amount of clutch knocks Ashwin has played in his career which ended up tilting the result of the game and the series too.

Its a long list lol.

 

[Chrish]

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...nd-vs-england-2nd-test-1115781/full-scorecard

Not alien conditions but a proper tail-ender stone-walled the opposition saved the series. It happens.

Point is Ashwin isn't reliable with the bat like jadeja is who is a proper batsman.

 

[Chrish]

Ashwin is ATG based on his bowling alone. I just don't see him as an all-rounder. Anyways it's a meaningless term. Him being or not being an all-rounder wouldn't diminish his value as a class cricketer. He is the greatest Indian bowler of all time and walks into All time Indian Xi.

 

[Chrish]

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Sachin
Kohli
Dhoni (C)
Kapil
Jadeja
Ashwin
Bhumrah
Shami

Kumble and VVS unlucky to miss out. But I reckon both Jadeja and Ashwin have suppressed Kumble as an overall cricketer.

 

[Bilal7]

A bowlers who has zero five-fors in Australia, England, New Zealand or South Africa. A batsmen who has no centuries in the aforementioned countries. A player who has never been tested against the batsmen of India or Pakistan, the best players of spin throughout his career.

Put it all together and you get the greatest Asian all-rounder? Have people gone mad?

Ashwin's going to be a great test cricketer for India. Let's not unnecessarily demean a good man by making him something he will never be.

 

[Bilal7]

People need to put more respect on Shakib's name (bless you Kamaru Usman). He's done what Ashwin has done but he's done it while playing for a garbage team. As far as spin-bowling all-rounders go, he's the best from Asia.

 

[Chrish]

Whether you are a batsman, bowler or all-rounder, the goal is essentially the same ie. winning the game for your team and Ashwin has done that it again and again.

That's why I said the term all-rounder is meaningless in determining the value of a cricketer.

 

[Buffet]

Ashwin is a brilliant spinner n a very good lower order bat

But Even hed admit hes not an allrounder

Why?

You are probably confusing batting all-rounders with bowling all-rounders.

One of the best bowling all-rounders IK scored 30 runs per inning with 6 tons in his entire career.

Ashwin has scored 25 runs per inning with 5 tons so far. Many great efforts to draw games as well.

Why do you expect more from anyone to be called a bowling all-rounder?

The best this or the best that is hyperbole at this moment, but he is a proper bowling all-rounder.

 

[Bilal7]

Whether you are a batsman, bowler or all-rounder, the goal is essentially the same ie. winning the game for your team and Ashwin has done that it again and again.

That's why I said the term all-rounder is meaningless in determining the value of a cricketer.

All-rounders are the best cricketers. It's in the name. A great all-rounder is superior to a great batsman or a great bowler. This is why Imran will always be Asia's greatest cricketer, with Sachin, Wasim and Murali below him.

 

[Buffet]

Whether you are a batsman, bowler or all-rounder, the goal is essentially the same ie. winning the game for your team and Ashwin has done that it again and again.

That's why I said the term all-rounder is meaningless in determining the value of a cricketer.

He could get close to Murali in winning games and series. Ashwin has given 10-12 series-defining performances in just 70-80 tests so far.

 

[Chrish]

All-rounders are the best cricketers. It's in the name. A great all-rounder is superior to a great batsman or a great bowler. This is why Imran will always be Asia's greatest cricketer, with Sachin, Wasim and Murali below him.

Not really.. I would take someone like Mcgrath over any all-rounder the game has seen.. Why? Because of his ridiculous impact with one skill he excelled at..

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...nd-vs-england-2nd-test-1115781/full-scorecard

Not alien conditions but a proper tail-ender stone-walled the opposition saved the series. It happens.

Point is Ashwin isn't reliable with the bat like jadeja is who is a proper batsman.

Broad back then wasnt considered a tailender.

He had lots of ability.

He kept declining.

That knock was actually rated really really high.

 

[Chrish]

Broad back then wasnt considered a tailender.

He had lots of ability.

He kept declining.

That knock was actually rated really really high.

Talking about Wagner in the 4th inning.. And Sodhi although he has pretty decent average.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Broad back then wasnt considered a tailender.

He had lots of ability.

He kept declining.

That knock was actually rated really really high.

Oh you meant Ish Sodhi...

My bad.

Generally tails dont do that (especially against a quality attack) and this is one in a million exception.

 

[Chrish]

And Shakib is absolutely gun. Many including myself are guilty of underrating him because he doesn't play for a major team.

 

[Chrish]

Wagner scored 7 from 103 NZ won that series..

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Wagner scored 7 from 103 NZ won that series..

Ish sodhi and Wagner combo... Great performance

Interesting...

 

[Ab Fan]

Ish sodhi and Wagner combo... Great performance

Interesting...

Ashwin is Shaun Pollock level as bowler and batter both in my opinion.

 

[Bilal7]

Not really.. I would take someone like Mcgrath over any all-rounder the game has seen.. Why? Because of his ridiculous impact with one skill he excelled at..

With respect, you would lose. Imran had just as much impact with the ball but also gave you 40-50 runs a match. There is just no reason to pick a specialist when the all-rounder can do almost as good a job at one thing but also do well with his other skills.

 

[Zaz]

Why?

You are probably confusing batting all-rounders with bowling all-rounders.

One of the best bowling all-rounders IK scored 30 runs per inning with 6 tons in his entire career.

Ashwin has scored 25 runs per inning with 5 tons so far. Many great efforts to draw games as well.

Why do you expect more from anyone to be called a bowling all-rounder?

The best this or the best that is hyperbole at this moment, but he is a proper bowling all-rounder.

Hes a capable lower order batsman An all rounder to me is good enough to bat in top 6 n bowl well Ashwin isnt a good enough bat

Why make him something hes not n call him an allrounder n demean his worth? Isnt being a top class spinner and a very capable lower order batsman good enough?

Its not all about how many runs you score but also how you score them Ashwin like wasim akram isnt a reliable batter You can tell by their technique theres holes in them, theyre better than tailenders and will score useful runs but they r worse than proper batsmen They ll have some good days but more bad days with the bat

It doesnt make them all rounders

Ashwin ll give you an avge of 25 runs Theres occasions he ll make a century like he did the other day with a bit of luck like dropped catches and when the bowling is mediocre or avge

You cant compare him with someone like imran who was a legitimate top order bat in his last 10 yrs of cricket

 

[Buffet]

Hes a capable lower order batsman An all rounder to me is good enough to bat in top 6 n bowl well Ashwin isnt a good enough bat

Why make him something hes not n call him an allrounder n demean his worth? Isnt being a top class spinner and a very capable lower order batsman good enough?

Its not all about how many runs you score but also how you score them Ashwin like wasim akram isnt a reliable batter You can tell by their technique theres holes in them, theyre better than tailenders and will score useful runs but they r worse than proper batsmen They ll have some good days but more bad days with the bat

It doesnt make them all rounders

Ashwin ll give you an avge of 25 runs Theres occasions he ll make a century like he did the other day with a bit of luck like dropped catches and when the bowling is mediocre or avge

You cant compare him with someone like imran who was a legitimate top order bat in his last 10 yrs of cricket

He added 30 runs per inning in his career with less than 4K runs. Either you are overrating IK or underrating Ashwin if you think Ashwin is not an all-rounder.

 

[Buffet]

I am not making a comparison with IK. All I am saying that bowling all-rounders don't really score many runs per inning. Great bowling all-rounder like IK has scored 30 runs per inning. That's your close to highest bowling all-rounders score.

Not many all-rounders are like Botham or Shakib who could do well with both skills. Batting or bowling all-rounders will have a weaker skill. If I am right then Shakib has scored in higher 30s per inning. That's rare and if we are going to use that kind of benchmark then sure, we won't have more than a handful of bowling all-rounders in the history of cricket.

 

[Zaz]

I am not making a comparison with IK. All I am saying that bowling all-rounders don't really score many runs per inning. Great bowling all-rounder like IK has scored 30 runs per inning. That's your close to highest bowling all-rounders score.

Not many all-rounders are like Botham or Shakib who could do well with both skills. Batting or bowling all-rounders will have a weaker skill. If I am right then Shakib has scored in higher 30s per inning. That's rare and if we are going to use that kind of benchmark then sure, we won't have more than a handful of bowling all-rounders in the history of cricket.

Why do you keep using this silly 30 runs per innings? Again you are missing the whole picture n choosing to focus on one stat which doesnt even tell half the story

Imran in the first half of his career a pretty avge player He had a very slow start n didnt score his first century till his 30th test Its only from there in the last decade of his career he transformed into the player he became

So using this 30 runs per innings is false Theres a reason why stats or just one stat isnt a poor way to judge the quality of a player

 

[Buffet]

Why do you keep using this silly 30 runs per innings? Again you are missing the whole picture n choosing to focus on one stat which doesnt even tell half the story

Imran in the first half of his career a pretty avge player He had a very slow start n didnt score his first century till his 30th test Its only from there in the last decade of his career he transformed into the player he became

So using this 30 runs per innings is false Theres a reason why stats or just one stat isnt a poor way to judge the quality of a player

OK, we ignore his first 30 tests.

IK played 31 tests after making his first ton till 1986. Guess what he scored 30 runs per inning in those 31 tests.


Now you will say that let's ignore his middle 31 tests as well because he scored silly 30 runs per inning in that period as well.

We will be left with only his last 27 tests. Guess what he picked less than 3 wickets per test in that period and that will simply make him not really a top-class bowler in those 27 tests and disqualify him as an all-rounder.

----------------

I will stick with 30 runs per inning as a very good output for a gun bowler. In my opinion, anyone having that is an all-rounder. If the benchmark is higher then we are arguing that even IK was not an allrounder.

We just need to agree to disagree here.

 

[Ashmal]

Lol....Ashwin is not even the best all-rounder in India, Jadeja > Ashwin

 

[Bilal7]

Imran Khan had a batting average of around 50 and a bowling average of around 20 in the last ten years of his career. This is why he is the greatest all-rounder of all time. Not sure why runs per innings is being used as a statistic. Remaining 'not-out' is a big achievement in test cricket.

 

[Buffet]

Normally players are judged based on their entire career, but we can see in phases here if taking career stats is misleading.

IK's

1) First 30 tests: Can be ignored for all-rounder discussion. He was not a gun with either ball or bat.

2) Middle 31 tests: I consider him as an all-rounder here because he scored 30 runs per inning and bowled really well. Contributing with both at the same time.

3 ) Last 27 tests: Done with bowling. He picked up 2-3 wickets per test.

Point is, 30 runs per inning is really a great output when you are a gun bowler. All-rounders can influence the game as bowler and batsman in the same period and that's what IK did in the middle phase of his career.

 

[Justcrazy]

Ashwin is the best ever spin bowling all-rounder world has produced .

 

[Buffet]

Imran Khan had a batting average of around 50 and a bowling average of around 20 in the last ten years of his career. This is why he is the greatest all-rounder of all time. Not sure why runs per innings is being used as a statistic. Remaining 'not-out' is a big achievement in test cricket.

It is surely an achievement and it shows that he had a good defensive game to remain not out. But when all said and done cricket is won by scoring more runs and taking 20 wickets.

If you contributed 30 runs then you contributed 30 runs. If you remain not out then it simply means you are a better batsman than someone who got out after 30 runs, but your contribution in the match is still 30 runs.

I was not even comparing Ashwin and IK here. I was using IK as a benchmark because he is one of the best bowling all-rounders in history.

 

[moghul]

His fellow countryman Kapil Dev was a better allrounder

Yes, Kapil was a great all rounder, ATG, Ashwin does not come even close to him. Stats are not everything, its how you achieve those stats. Yes, give Ashwin rank turners in India and he will deliver , not beyond that.

IK has been the best from Asia.

 

[street cricketer]

Yes, Kapil was a great all rounder, ATG, Ashwin does not come even close to him. Stats are not everything, its how you achieve those stats. Yes, give Ashwin rank turners in India and he will deliver , not beyond that.

IK has been the best from Asia.

Ashwin just played the biggest role in winning a test series in Australia. He kept Steve Smith, rated by many as arguably the best after Bradman, under a tight leash in his own backyard. Don't think any spinner has ever done that to Australia's best batsman in Australia.

 

[observer1]

I have a lot of respect for Ashwin. I really thought he was a toxic person but he seems like a down to earth guy.

Saying that, i think it's ridiculous to claim he is the best all rounder Asia has produced. That title goes to Imran Khan followed closely by Kapil.

You can post countless Stats. I always find context much better.

Imran and Kapil played for teams that were second fiddle to England, Australia and their domination of the sport.

It's hypothetical, but Ashwin didn't play in 70's or 80's in unfavourable conditions. Imran and Kapil didn't play today where the playing field has levelled out (Where India now has a massive advantage in it's clout).

 

[moghul]

Ashwin just played the biggest role in winning a test series in Australia. He kept Steve Smith, rated by many as arguably the best after Bradman, under a tight leash in his own backyard. Don't think any spinner has ever done that to Australia's best batsman in Australia.

So 12 wickets in a series is a big deal ? And, how many runs this "all rounder" scored in that series ? He is good bowler and nothing more than that.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Needs to play at least a few more game changing innings to be considered an all-rounder.

 

[street cricketer]

So 12 wickets in a series is a big deal ? And, how many runs this "all rounder" scored in that series ? He is good bowler and nothing more than that.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion I suppose..

 

[Sachin136]

So 12 wickets in a series is a big deal ? And, how many runs this "all rounder" scored in that series ? He is good bowler and nothing more than that.

Who cares about runs? His Sydney innings was worth more than many hundreds.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ashwin is the best ever spin bowling all-rounder world has produced .

No...our brother [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION] said its Shakib.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ashwin is Shaun Pollock level as bowler and batter both in my opinion.

Yeah thats a huge compliment.

Stature wise yeah.

But impact wise, way way way greater than Pollock (since he is a spinner who can bowl long spells).

His wickets per game might be much higher.

So opposition literally has no respite.

They can't play him off and score against others.

If they gotta win, they gotta score against him.

No other way out.

Our home domination has many heroes but the main guy is Ashwin.

If he performs, the series is pretty much a done deal.

We lost 4 tests at home since Ashwin's debut.

2012 Mumbai - Ashwin sucked.
2012 Kolkata - Ashwin sucked.
2017 Pune - Ashwin picked wickets but had injury (dropped out of IPL next)
2021 Chennai - Only game where Ashwin was ok and we lost (due to too much rash cricket in 1st innings)

Not only have we not lost any games, but we win ALMOST every game barring rain or the odd dead pitch draw.

And add to that his impact with the bat in all the series...Many of them ended up being so crucial.

I dunno if many know this but take out Ashwin's knock and we might have lost the 2015 SL series. It was wayyyy too close.
WI series he performed when team was down but we might have made it back in 2nd innings tho.
Had a crucial role with the bat in the Aus Adelaide 2018 win (and the subsequent series win).
And then 2021 Aus series.....well... we know how it goes.

His batting can be iffy but he produces the goods time and time again.

Its not just his runs per innings but the impact of those little runs he scored.

How can we put a value to the 20 runs Washington Sundar scored in Gabba second innings....its priceless. Worth more than 2000 test runs for me. While all of Ashwin's runs werent that 20 runs level, it was very very crucial a lot of times.

 

[ManFan]

Really?

Ashwin over IK? Really guys?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Really?

Ashwin over IK? Really guys?

I don't think anyone is saying that.

But what's up with this indignation that a comparison shouldn't even be made.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

I think people are viewing this from 2 different sides.

Ashwin's impact at home (and some countries including Aus) VS Ashwin overalll

I think Ashwin has to perform one more tour away from home.

Eng 2018 he looked damn good before injury.

Aus 2018 he got injured after a great 1st test.

Aus 2021 was crazy good.

Eng tour will be critical as to how ends up being rated (his base legacy is established of course).

Depends on his fitness.

At the end of the day, deliverables matter.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Not that comparison between Imran and Ashwin was ever on.

But a quick into Imran's numbers.

His peak was something else.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

1982 onwards

51 average. 37 runs per innings.
19 average. 4.2 wickets per test.

Batting average of 50 at home & away.
Bowling average of 15 at home & 23 away.

Flawless record.

 

[ikky47]

Not that comparison between Imran and Ashwin was ever on.

But a quick into Imran's numbers.

His peak was something else.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

1982 onwards

51 average. 37 runs per innings.
19 average. 4.2 wickets per test.

Batting average of 50 at home & away.
Bowling average of 15 at home & 23 away.

Flawless record.

Great peak but only blemish during that time period is his record in Aus & India with the ball averages 40+

 

[Khan12]

Hes the second best all rounder in his team Jadeja is better then him and shakib is far better all rounder then both of them and comfortablly the best in asia at the moment. Shakib is ridiculously under rated here hes not even close to Imran let alone HTB ashwin.

For a start shakib has got 3 5fers in SENA Ashwin is still looking for one i believe while playing tons of more games then Shakib. Shakib also has a double ton in New Zealand when Ashwin get a ton in SENA thrn the debate can start.

People rating Ashwin over Imran dont know much about cricket if anything at all. Imran is the best cricketer from SC.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

HTB? lol.

And that elusive 5fer.

Ashwin has so many 4fers in SENA.

Unless you rate getting a tailender out to get the 5fer as be all and end all.

Ash has one 4fer in SA, one in Eng and two in Aus.

Ashwin has done things at home, SL, WI and Aus Shakib hasn't done (and I am a huge Shakib fan who I think is a more balanced AR than Ash).

Basically 80-90% of the games they play in.

 

[Buffet]

Yeah thats a huge compliment.

Stature wise yeah.

But impact wise, way way way greater than Pollock (since he is a spinner who can bowl long spells).

His wickets per game might be much higher.

So opposition literally has no respite.

They can't play him off and score against others.

If they gotta win, they gotta score against him.

No other way out.

Our home domination has many heroes but the main guy is Ashwin.

If he performs, the series is pretty much a done deal.

We lost 4 tests at home since Ashwin's debut.

2012 Mumbai - Ashwin sucked.
2012 Kolkata - Ashwin sucked.
2017 Pune - Ashwin picked wickets but had injury (dropped out of IPL next)
2021 Chennai - Only game where Ashwin was ok and we lost (due to too much rash cricket in 1st innings)

Not only have we not lost any games, but we win ALMOST every game barring rain or the odd dead pitch draw.

And add to that his impact with the bat in all the series...Many of them ended up being so crucial.

I dunno if many know this but take out Ashwin's knock and we might have lost the 2015 SL series. It was wayyyy too close.
WI series he performed when team was down but we might have made it back in 2nd innings tho.
Had a crucial role with the bat in the Aus Adelaide 2018 win (and the subsequent series win).
And then 2021 Aus series.....well... we know how it goes.

His batting can be iffy but he produces the goods time and time again.

Its not just his runs per innings but the impact of those little runs he scored.

How can we put a value to the 20 runs Washington Sundar scored in Gabba second innings....its priceless. Worth more than 2000 test runs for me. While all of Ashwin's runs werent that 20 runs level, it was very very crucial a lot of times.

The bold part is such a huge one. Ashwin has SR lower than someone like IK. Ashwin can bowl a lot more overs due to bowling spin. That means, you have to play him well to score. You can't just see him off somehow and hope to score against others. And if you play long enough he is picking wickets every 8-9 overs. No wonder, it has been very hard to beat India in India.

I don't get this dismissive attitude for a top-class player in PP. Discussion in the thread would have been far more productive if it had nothing to do with IK. A total blind spot for some fans to appreciate a good cricketer if IK comes in the picture. You start getting weird reactions.

 

[Khan12]

HTB? lol.

And that elusive 5fer.

Ashwin has so many 4fers in SENA.

Unless you rate getting a tailender out to get the 5fer as be all and end all.

Ash has one 4fer in SA, one in Eng and two in Aus.

Ashwin has done things at home, SL, WI and Aus Shakib hasn't done (and I am a huge Shakib fan who I think is a more balanced AR than Ash).

Basically 80-90% of the games they play in.

Bowling average of 40+ in 2 out of 4 SENA countires while 30 + in the other 2 while batting average of 18 in those countires. A bolwing average of 38 in SENA while a batting average of 18 with 2 fifties. Then compare it to india. The definition of HTB and people here are comparing him with Imran lol.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Bowling average of 40+ in 2 out of 4 SENA countires while 30 + in the other 2 while batting average of 18 in those countires. A bolwing average of 38 in SENA while a batting average of 18 with 2 fifties. Then compare it to india. The definition of HTB and people here are comparing him with Imran lol.

Good job figuring out how to use cricinfo stats. I am impressed.

Bowling average of 29 in last SENA cycle.

Including injury.

Bowling average of 20 odd in last sena cycle in non injured games lol.

Moreover the bowling average of 40 was mainly In aus where he had to bowl on dead pitches with zero support for pacers and still matched lyon in the games they played.

When other spinners toured there, their careers derailed.

On SA, he played one game and didn't pick a wicket. 2013.

Or else he averages 30 odd there. Or maybe 28. And i this includes a gazzilion dropped catches in centurion.

Now go back to sleep.

You aint worthy enough to debate with sif.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

The bold part is such a huge one. Ashwin has SR lower than someone like IK. Ashwin can bowl a lot more overs due to bowling spin. That means, you have to play him well to score. You can't just see him off somehow and hope to score against others. And if you play long enough he is picking wickets every 8-9 overs. No wonder, it has been very hard to beat India in India.

I don't get this dismissive attitude for a top-class player in PP. Discussion in the thread would have been far more productive if it had nothing to do with IK. A total blind spot for some fans to appreciate a good cricketer if IK comes in the picture. You start getting weird reactions.

Its funny.

I will address your post in detail tom mate.

Too hard to type on mobile.

The impact of Ash goes far beyond stats.. Even tho statistically hes right up there.

 

[Khan12]

Good job figuring out how to use cricinfo stats. I am impressed.

Bowling average of 29 in last SENA cycle.

Including injury.

Bowling average of 20 odd in last sena cycle in non injured games lol.

Moreover the bowling average of 40 was mainly In aus where he had to bowl on dead pitches with zero support for pacers and still matched lyon in the games they played.

When other spinners toured there, their careers derailed.

Now go back to sleep.

You aint worthy enough to debate with sif.

Maybe you need some rest since you are struglling to grasp a bowling average of 38 for injured ashwin and a batting average of 18 for the so called great asain all rounder not so sensible indian fan.

 

[MesonK]

Guy averages 24, 25, 2, 21 with bat and 42,33, 33, 46 with bowl in SENA

averages 30 in ist innings but 19 in 4th innings when pitch cracks (in India mostly)

He is the greatest allrounder of all ... very true

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Maybe you need some rest since you are struglling to grasp a bowling average of 38 for injured ashwin and a batting average of 18 for the so called great asain all rounder not so sensible indian fan.

I defo need a rest buddy after putting up with such mind numbing debate.

First it was lack of 5fers...

Once thats addressed, next sena average...

Once thats addressed, now rest

I better take ur advice and rest up.

 

[Bigboii]

I absolutely love the guy probably my top 5 favourite players of current generation

but if you are going to make him the best he needs to compete with

IK, Shakib

don't think he is better than Shakib

 

[Bigboii]

Really?

Ashwin over IK? Really guys?

Ashwin is actually good, but I heard someone (don't remember the poster) saying Jadeja was way better than IK

 

[Bigboii]

I absolutely love the guy probably my top 5 favourite players of current generation

but if you are going to make him the best he needs to compete with

IK, Shakib

don't think he is better than Shakib

hell I forgot Kapil...

3 players who I think are better than Ashwin as an all rounder

 

[Buffet]

I absolutely love the guy probably my top 5 favourite players of current generation

but if you are going to make him the best he needs to compete with

IK, Shakib

don't think he is better than Shakib

Shakib's career bowling average may show that he averages 31, but he has played 30% of tests against Zim/WI. To really compare take out Zim/WI from both bowlers.

You get Ashwin averaging 25 and Shakib averaging 35.

There is a too huge a gap between Ashwin and Shakib as a bowler. Averaging 10 points higher with bat won't compensate for that.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ashwin is actually good, but I heard someone (don't remember the poster) saying Jadeja was way better than IK

Rhetorical i believe.

Statistically comparable both are.

If i were like some posters here, i could make a pretty amazing argument on how Jaddu 2. 0 equals Imran, frustrate the hell out of posters and take this thread to 1 pages.

And i believe i can do a pretty good job of it.

But i wont cos i ain't like that.

Jaddu is really amazing tho.

If he keeps up what he is doing, he is going to go places.

 

[Khan12]

I defo need a rest buddy after putting up with such mind numbing debate.

First it was lack of 5fers...

Once thats addressed, next sena average...

Once thats addressed, now rest

I better take ur advice and rest up.

Who says lack of 5 fer was adressed. Unless you think 4 fers and 5 fers are the same.

SENA average is near 40 which is not the batting average unfortunately. He can always improve on that and as you have rightly pointed out his 29 average imagine what is was without it. BTW i actually think hes a fantastic test cricketer. No reason why he cant improve on these averages.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Shakib's career bowling average may show that he averages 31, but he has played 30% of tests against Zim/WI. To really compare take out Zim/WI from both bowlers.

You get Ashwin averaging 25 and Shakib averaging 35.

There is a too huge a gap between Ashwin and Shakib as a bowler. Averaging 10 points higher with bat won't compensate for that.

They get confused since Shakib is a more balanced AR.

I bet many of them feel Flintoff is a better AR than Ash.

Both of them were more balanced AR but not necessarily better.

If Ash had stat boosted with the bat, all this debate about him not looking secure would have merit.

But his runs are clutch as hell and he has scored all over the world except SA (3 tests) and NZ (1 test).

And even in SA he played a crucial knock in Centurian supporting Kohli, facing their pace quartet. Rabada was hailing thunderbolts that game.

Responsible for series wins in SL, Aus (twice) and WI with important crucial knocks with the bat.

 

[Buffet]

Shakib's career bowling average may show that he averages 31, but he has played 30% of tests against Zim/WI. To really compare take out Zim/WI from both bowlers.

You get Ashwin averaging 25 and Shakib averaging 35.

There is a too huge a gap between Ashwin and Shakib as a bowler. Averaging 10 points higher with bat won't compensate for that.

I think Shakib is a more genuine all-rounder than Ashwin, IK, and Dev. Not really the best, but he could contribute with bat and ball at the same time more frequently due to having more balanced skills. The issue comes with him never being gun in any skill to take over as the best. I don't think he ever broke into the top 5 ranks in either batting or bowling.

As of now, IK is clear number one in Asian all rounders.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Who says lack of 5 fer was adressed. Unless you think 4 fers and 5 fers are the same.

SENA average is near 40 which is not the batting average unfortunately. He can always improve on that and as you have rightly pointed out his 29 average imagine what is was without it. BTW i actually think hes a fantastic test cricketer. No reason why he cant improve on these averages.

Yes 4fers and 5fers are almost the same lol.

The 5th wicket is almost always a tailender.

Bowlers usually dont take 5fers getting out pure bats.

In fact, here is a list of 5fers he missed out:

Sydney 2015....he took 4 out of 5 wickets once the pitch started to turn...too bad all the other bowlers were complete trash so they scored fast and they declared....

Centurian 2018 - took like 8 wickets in that innings... Dropped catches turned into 4 lol

Edgbaston 2018 - took 4 wickets..
Pacers finished it off

Adelaide 2020 - toook 4 wickets... Pat cummins threw his wicket away to jaddu...

Even this series, ashwin needed atleast 1 tail wicket to gget his 5fers... Thats the norm...

So 5fer argument is null and. Void... He has 4fers...and many many 3fers with top order wickets...

His earlier sena average was like this

1 test no wicket in SA
50 average in Aus (bowling with pacers who were leaking 4 rpo on the other end)
33 average in eng

It aint a big deal....

This sena cycle he really did well...

 

[Buffet]

They get confused since Shakib is a more balanced AR.

I bet many of them feel Flintoff is a better AR than Ash.

Both of them were more balanced AR but not necessarily better.

If Ash had stat boosted with the bat, all this debate about him not looking secure would have merit.

But his runs are clutch as hell and he has scored all over the world except SA (3 tests) and NZ (1 test).

And even in SA he played a crucial knock in Centurian supporting Kohli, facing their pace quartet. Rabada was hailing thunderbolts that game.

Responsible for series wins in SL, Aus (twice) and WI with important crucial knocks with the bat.

LOL, I wrote something similar just before seeing your post. Balanced doesn't always mean better.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

LOL, I wrote something similar just before seeing your post. Balanced doesn't always mean better.

Yeah indeed.

Vast majority of the posters misread his Aus average on those brutal pitches with our old pace attack.

In 2015, I would explain with numbers but very few would see the point.

Good overseas spinners used to average 50 to 100 on 90s aussie pitches.... These 2010 to 2015 pitches were graveyards and it wud mess up anyone's career.

Time proved the theory right.

It messed up a lot of careers.

And once we got a decent pace attack and ashwin improved his skills, his numbers took a 180 degree turn in Aus.

It's simple basic analysis.

 

[Buffet]

Yeah indeed.

Vast majority of the posters misread his Aus average on those brutal pitches with our old pace attack.

In 2015, I would explain with numbers but very few would see the point.

Good overseas spinners used to average 50 to 100 on 90s aussie pitches.... These 2010 to 2015 pitches were graveyards and it wud mess up anyone's career.

Time proved the theory right.

It messed up a lot of careers.

And once we got a decent pace attack and ashwin improved his skills, his numbers took a 180 degree turn in Aus.

It's simple basic analysis.

Ashwin contributed in the last two series wins in Aus. Smith was in top form and Ashwin kept him on a leash. He actually kept too tight from one end even when not taking wickets. Can't ask for more from a spinner in Aus.

I just looked up the numbers to put it out here. Ashwin bowled 220+ overs in the last 2 series in Aus and his ER was freaking 2.2. That was the huge factor in Aus not doing well, otherwise, Aus often scores too fast and the opposition simply goes behind in the game.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Ashwin contributed in the last two series wins in Aus. Smith was in top form and Ashwin kept him on a leash. He actually kept too tight from one end even when not taking wickets. Can't ask for more from a spinner in Aus.

I just looked up the numbers to put it out here. Ashwin bowled 220+ overs in the last 2 series in Aus and his ER was freaking 2.2. That was the huge factor in Aus not doing well, otherwise, Aus often scores too fast and the opposition simply goes behind in the game.

Yeah its a bit weird as to why it happened.

I have wondered about it cos ashwin cant get those economy rates even in India. Lol.

Bounce should make it easier for stroke making so that defies logic too.

Or maybe the Aussie bats were just horrible.

But then in the past tours, they scored lots of runs relatively faster.

 

[Buffet]

Yeah its a bit weird as to why it happened.

I have wondered about it cos ashwin cant get those economy rates even in India. Lol.

Bounce should make it easier for stroke making so that defies logic too.

Or maybe the Aussie bats were just horrible.

But then in the past tours, they scored lots of runs relatively faster.

Aus were defensive in their mindset. I don't think he bowled as well as having ER of 2.2, but him keeping it so tight derailed the momentum Aus usually get against visiting bowling attacks.

 

[moghul]

There has been too many genuine all rounders produced by India and Pakistan other than Imran and Kapil. Azhar Mahmood and Shahid Afridi can also be included in the same category but at a different level.

Other are in following category

1-A bowler and more than useful batsman : Wasim, Ashwin, jadeja, and some others
2-Batsman and more than useful bowler : Mushtaq Mohammad, Yovraj Singh, Hafeez, and some others

Bits and pieces players ; Razzq.

 

[KP From India]

To me, Razzler was a quality ODI allrounder in the league of Cairns, Klusner etc.

 

[Heisenberg111]

My rankings for best all-rounders from Asia.

1. IK
2. KD
3. Ash
4. Jadeja
5. Shakib
6. Mushtaq Mohammad

 

[redmaverik84]

My rankings for best all-rounders from Asia.

1. IK
2. KD
3. Ash
4. Jadeja
5. Shakib
6. Mushtaq Mohammad

I would agree with this list. IK was more inspirational, aspirational and led as a Captain and I would say had more watch winning moments. Ashwin while being excellent till recently was not a certainty for tests in SENA and batting was on the wane till recently. He still has a few years in him and there is no reason if he improves and performs as he is now, that he shouldn't reach the levels of IK

 

[Bilal7]

Not that comparison between Imran and Ashwin was ever on.

But a quick into Imran's numbers.

His peak was something else.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...;spanval1=span;template=results;type=allround

1982 onwards

51 average. 37 runs per innings.
19 average. 4.2 wickets per test.

Batting average of 50 at home & away.
Bowling average of 15 at home & 23 away.

Flawless record.

Yes, this is why any unbiased person wouldn't even get into a debate on this topic. Imran was the closest thing to the perfect all-rounder. I'm not sure why [MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] thought it was wise to start this conversation; of course it was going to go sour because there is no comparison between Imran and Ashwin.

 

[Bilal7]

It is surely an achievement and it shows that he had a good defensive game to remain not out. But when all said and done cricket is won by scoring more runs and taking 20 wickets.

If you contributed 30 runs then you contributed 30 runs. If you remain not out then it simply means you are a better batsman than someone who got out after 30 runs, but your contribution in the match is still 30 runs.

I was not even comparing Ashwin and IK here. I was using IK as a benchmark because he is one of the best bowling all-rounders in history.

Ashwin's greatest achievement as a batsman is drawing a test match in Australia. So yes, 'not-outs' are quite important in test cricket. A 30* is a better test innings than a 40 (out) for a variety of reasons but the most important is that you were good enough to not be dismissed.

You cannot use Imran as a benchmark without mentioning that he averaged 50+ with the bat while averaging below 20 with the ball for a period of ten years. Oh, he was also the captain. We use batting averages and not runs/innings for a reason in every other discussion. Not sure why you're moving away from the norm just because it supports your narrative.

No...our brother [MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION] said its Shakib.

I gave reasons for that. Shakib does what Ashwin does but he does it for a much weaker team. You're blaming India's pace attack for Ashwin's poor showing overseas but apparently, Shakib should be averaging 25 with the ball or he's not better than Ashwin.

Ashwin is the better bowler but Shakib is a far better batsman.

 

[avihash]

Rhetorical i believe.

Statistically comparable both are.

If i were like some posters here, i could make a pretty amazing argument on how Jaddu 2. 0 equals Imran, frustrate the hell out of posters and take this thread to 1 pages.

And i believe i can do a pretty good job of it.

But i wont cos i ain't like that.

Jaddu is really amazing tho.

If he keeps up what he is doing, he is going to go places.

Test batting /bowling av.

Jad : 36.2/24.3
Immy : 37.7/22.8

And on top of it, Immy is not even 1% the fielder that Jad is.

Seems pak posters have placed Immy on a very high pedestal purely because there's nobody in modern era pak team who can match his stats. But that's not the case with rest of the world.

Given the upsurge that jad has seen in recent times (both overseas bowling and overall batting), might not be surprising to seem him cross IK in all aspects.

 

[Bilal7]

Guy averages 24, 25, 2, 21 with bat and 42,33, 33, 46 with bowl in SENA

averages 30 in ist innings but 19 in 4th innings when pitch cracks (in India mostly)

He is the greatest allrounder of all ... very true

Shakib in SENA:

South Africa - BatA of 11, BowlA of 20.
England - BatA of 13, BowlA of 34
New Zealand - BatA of 73, BowlA of 40
Australia - Hasn't gotten an opportunity

Like I said, pretty comparable. With the difference being that unlike Ashwin, Shakib isn't backed by other world-class players and unlike Ashwin, he hasn't gotten more opportunities to show how good he is.

 

[wrongun]

How is this even a thread.

There is a month of daylight, night time stars & a full moon between Imran & Ashwin as Test cricketers.

Please retitle, who is the the 2nd best Test allrounder from Asia. Then people can try to justify why Ashwin or Shakib is as good as Kapil. Fairer contest.

 

[szrana007]

Test batting /bowling av.

Jad : 36.2/24.3
Immy : 37.7/22.8

And on top of it, Immy is not even 1% the fielder that Jad is.

Seems pak posters have placed Immy on a very high pedestal purely because there's nobody in modern era pak team who can match his stats. But that's not the case with rest of the world.

Given the upsurge that jad has seen in recent times (both overseas bowling and overall batting), might not be surprising to seem him cross IK in all aspects.

Jadeja has a pretty good chance to surpass IK as the GOAT all-rounder from Asia.

 

[Heisenberg111]

To me, Razzler was a quality ODI allrounder in the league of Cairns, Klusner etc.

Only a quality ODI allrounder. In tests, he was very poor.

 

[szrana007]

Shakib in SENA:

South Africa - BatA of 11, BowlA of 20.
England - BatA of 13, BowlA of 34
New Zealand - BatA of 73, BowlA of 40
Australia - Hasn't gotten an opportunity

Like I said, pretty comparable. With the difference being that unlike Ashwin, Shakib isn't backed by other world-class players and unlike Ashwin, he hasn't gotten more opportunities to show how good he is.

How are they comparable? Shakib averages less with the bat than Ashwin in very SENA country barring NZL. Most importantly Shakib has no match saving performance oversea like Ashwin has in Australia.

 

[Ab Fan]

Shakib plays for a minnow team so his stats should be taken like a pinch of salt. It is like taking Ten Doeschate's ODI batting average of 67.

Shakib is still world class but ATGs are reserved for guys like Kapil and Imran as they have won World cups and test series away for their teams. Shakib hasn't been able to win anything of worth, he may have a couple of world cup match wins as standout performance which puts him in a country great category but not an ATG like Imran , Ashwin and Kapil.