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Best ever Test all-rounder from Asia

Lol at Ravi Ashwin getting compared with Imran and Kapil. The guy has taken over 200 of his 270 career wickets in India.
 
EliteCynical said:
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=137142]JaDed[/MENTION] [MENTION=141829]geraltofrivia[/MENTION]
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As I said in reply to "IK averaged 50 with bat and 19 with ball in his last 10 years of international cricket".

Quite a remarkable performance!

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...ow=;tourneyid=0;runshigh=;.cgifields=viewtype

Ashwin has a very long way to go before he comes close to IK's last 10 years performance. IK also had the intangible greatness of molding a team into winners.
 
EliteCynical said:
[MENTION=142162]Napa[/MENTION] [MENTION=137142]JaDed[/MENTION] [MENTION=141829]geraltofrivia[/MENTION]
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Its a thread to put down Ash man,and yes I'm glad you shared the stats,considering we see so many such stats often from Pak posters :)) wonder what they will say now lol.

But tbf to Imran what really separated him from the rest was his hard work along with talent.
 
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EliteCynical said:
After 49 tests,

Imran Khan

Matches 49
Runs 1853
HS 123
Batting Average 29.88
100's 2
Wickets 232
BBI 8/58
Bowling average 22.91
5WI 16
Average Difference - 6.97

Ravichandran Ashwin
Matches 49
Runs 1903
HS 124
Batting Average 32.25
100's 4
Wickets 275
BBI 7/59
Bowling average 25.22
5WI 25
Average Difference 7.03


Some people (read most) here talking as if they saw Imran from day one of his cricketing career and he was this god level all rounder with a batting average of 50 and bowling average of 20 from day 1. After 49 matches (clearly a pedastal which the 'same fans' use while comparing say a Babar vs Kohli), one can clearly see Ashwin is ahead of Imran. So unless, they can peep into their crystal ball and tell how Ashwin is going to do the next few years, i suggest they refrain from making silly statements like dirt on sneakers and all.

Yes Imran is an ATG, no doubt about it, I am just pointing at the double standards of our friendly neighbors over here who jump on the defensive when an upcoming pak batsman is compared with an indian great, and quote performances after 'x' games.

Rest my case!
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Have to say Ashwin is very underrated as an all-rounder. He should focus only on Test matches and the big tournaments, to keep his fitness in check. At the moment, he has better stats than Imran Khan, and that is no small sample either.
 
EliteCynical said:
After 49 tests,

Imran Khan

Matches 49
Runs 1853
HS 123
Batting Average 29.88
100's 2
Wickets 232
BBI 8/58
Bowling average 22.91
5WI 16
Average Difference - 6.97

Ravichandran Ashwin
Matches 49
Runs 1903
HS 124
Batting Average 32.25
100's 4
Wickets 275
BBI 7/59
Bowling average 25.22
5WI 25
Average Difference 7.03


Some people (read most) here talking as if they saw Imran from day one of his cricketing career and he was this god level all rounder with a batting average of 50 and bowling average of 20 from day 1. After 49 matches (clearly a pedastal which the 'same fans' use while comparing say a Babar vs Kohli), one can clearly see Ashwin is ahead of Imran. So unless, they can peep into their crystal ball and tell how Ashwin is going to do the next few years, i suggest they refrain from making silly statements like dirt on sneakers and all.

Yes Imran is an ATG, no doubt about it, I am just pointing at the double standards of our friendly neighbors over here who jump on the defensive when an upcoming pak batsman is compared with an indian great, and quote performances after 'x' games.

Rest my case!
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Great reply! I see a reasonable amount of silence on this thread after these stats have been put up. Ofcourse there will be people like bilal who will keep on harping devoid of logic.
 
Can't seriously be comparing Ashwin with Imran. I mean seriously.

On another note Shakib deserves a mention as well.
 
I said it before and I'll say it again, if Indian posters want to show these meaningless stats and compare cricketers that played over different generations, then they're very welcome to do so on their own petty Indian forums. Don't fill in Pakpassion with such filth and ruin our experience too because Ashwin isn't worth the dirt on Imran Khan's 30 year old sneakers.
 
Rightarmfast said:
Great reply! I see a reasonable amount of silence on this thread after these stats have been put up. Ofcourse there will be people like bilal who will keep on harping devoid of logic.
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Thanks man. For the record I agree Imran is the greatest all rounder from Asia and (not the world, as some people here think). Comparing Ashwin to him is actually a joke and even Ashwin would agree .

However as I said, putting hard facts on the table with stats, he is behind Ashwin after 49 tests and what I posted is not any other forum material. This is exactly what people post here in Pakpassion when an Indian batsman is compared with a Pakistani batsman (mind goes back to Babar v Kohli thread). They can carry on I suppose.

I agree with the silence part though!
 
JaDed said:
Its a thread to put down Ash man,and yes I'm glad you shared the stats,considering we see so many such stats often from Pak posters :)) wonder what they will say now lol.

But tbf to Imran what really separated him from the rest was his hard work along with talent.
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Totally agree bro. Imran is Imran. No question about it. Guy was on a different planet. I was just focusing on 'stats' part :) which we keep getting served all the time.
 
Napa said:
As I said in reply to "IK averaged 50 with bat and 19 with ball in his last 10 years of international cricket".

Quite a remarkable performance!

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?...ow=;tourneyid=0;runshigh=;.cgifields=viewtype

Ashwin has a very long way to go before he comes close to IK's last 10 years performance. IK also had the intangible greatness of molding a team into winners.
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No question about that and I don't think he can come close to IK's last 10 year performance, which actually made him an ATG. After 49 tests he was a v good/great all rounder and so is Ash. Im just stating some facts on table for people to digest.
 
Cuts_and_cuts_hard said:
Ashwin is not even as good as Shakib as an allrounder
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Interesting you say that. Surprisingly even Shakib has played 49 tests so far and let us look how he has fared

Shakib Al hasan
Matches 49
Runs 3479
HS 217
Batting Average 40.92
100's 5
Wickets 176
BBI 7/36
Bowling average 33.04
5WI 15

Average Difference 7.88

So those are amazing stats again. Slightly better than Ashwin and Imran after 49 tests. What this tells me is Shakib is a batting all rounder where as the other 2 are bowling all rounders (whose runs and wickets are similar after 49 tests).

He is highly underrated and deserves all the credit.

So do you think Shakib is better than Ashwin and Imran after 49 tests?
 
This would be my Top 10.

Asian AR.jpg
Not much between Shakib and Ashwin though.
 
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Executioner said:
Surprised no Lankan allrounder their in the list
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Probably someone like Angelo Mathews has a case in ODI's , but his bowling record in test is too poor to make a case as test AR. (65 tests , 33Wkts , bowl-avg 50+)
 
big_gamer007 said:
Ashwin has saved or won few games by scoring crucial centuries or half centuries in last few years.. His batting is good for tests and can still get better.. Kapil ofcourse is the best AR from India and he was a fast bowling AR and one of a kind so far in Indian cricket history, but Ashwin can overtake him depending on his future performances..

People won't rate Ashwin because he plays most of his matches on so called rank turners in India against opposition who are very poor against spin.. So it's very tough for Ashwin to overtake KD Or IK
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the so called should have not been there in ur wording....and yes ashwin is a good bowler but one cant deny that most of his wickets are on rank turners, though i am not denying that he can perform evrywhere but his stats would have been different.....
 
1. Imran
2. Kapil
daylight
Ashwin

Please stop this nonsense, I beg you. I am a big fan of Ash but this is going too far.
 
Executioner said:
Surprised no Lankan allrounder their in the list
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shakib if back his batting abilities he can end his carre with averag of 45 to 48 and we all know his bowling is good so he can overtake ashwin if not kapil and imran...3rd will be very tough to say if shakib does improve his batting and play more tests....
 
EliteCynical said:
Thanks man. For the record I agree Imran is the greatest all rounder from Asia and (not the world, as some people here think). Comparing Ashwin to him is actually a joke and even Ashwin would agree .

However as I said, putting hard facts on the table with stats, he is behind Ashwin after 49 tests and what I posted is not any other forum material. This is exactly what people post here in Pakpassion when an Indian batsman is compared with a Pakistani batsman (mind goes back to Babar v Kohli thread). They can carry on I suppose.

I agree with the silence part though!
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I dont doubt that Imran was great. But its pretty funny how PP'ers react every time his name is taken. In the last 10 years of his career, its going to be understanding to see as to how someone who was averaging in 30's in bowling, suddenly came down below 20. Umpiring, ball tampering? Its obviously a mix of all, however Imran on records has stated himself he was guilty of ball tampering. So please, dont try to place him on a pedestal here!
 
EliteCynical said:
Thanks man. For the record I agree Imran is the greatest all rounder from Asia and (not the world, as some people here think). Comparing Ashwin to him is actually a joke and even Ashwin would agree .

However as I said, putting hard facts on the table with stats, he is behind Ashwin after 49 tests and what I posted is not any other forum material. This is exactly what people post here in Pakpassion when an Indian batsman is compared with a Pakistani batsman (mind goes back to Babar v Kohli thread). They can carry on I suppose.

I agree with the silence part though!
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Stop mistaking people ignoring that ridiculous post for people not having an answer for it. Ashwin's stats are as shiny as a new Lamborghini Aventador SV on the surface, but when you dig a little deeper, he's nothing more than a Toyota Camry. Zero, nilch, nada, anda, nothing of note outside Asia and the West Indies, with bat or ball.
 
Ashwin is a good cricketer but he is a failure outside India as a bowler.
Shahid Afridi for comparison has a batting average of 38 and a bowling average of 23 in India bowling to atg players of spin . We would have been comparing him with kallis and Sobers if he was indian.
I think for an all round record Wasim akram is better than Ashwin .
Imran is in a different league.
 
Imran and Sachin fans are so easy to rattle. Doesn't take much to get them triggered. I guess it is a subcontinent issue.
 
Mamoon said:
Imran and Sachin fans are so easy to rattle. Doesn't take much to get them triggered. I guess it is a subcontinent issue.
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No doubt about that. I have repeatedly stated there is no comparison, yet just flashed out stats after 49 tests where Ashwin is ahead, and people who call that as a ridiculous post actually use the same method when an Indian batsman is compared to Pakistani batsman. Looks like I touched a nerve for some people. Yes , I agree it is a sub continental issue.
 
EliteCynical said:
Thanks man. For the record I agree Imran is the greatest all rounder from Asia and (not the world, as some people here think). Comparing Ashwin to him is actually a joke and even Ashwin would agree .

However as I said, putting hard facts on the table with stats, he is behind Ashwin after 49 tests and what I posted is not any other forum material. This is exactly what people post here in Pakpassion when an Indian batsman is compared with a Pakistani batsman (mind goes back to Babar v Kohli thread). They can carry on I suppose.

I agree with the silence part though!
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Like your name EliteCynical, your stats are at best that!

One minor detail that was lacking in those stats is the element of 'Context' i.e. where, against whom, strength of opposition etc.

If these little tiny details are ignored, then there has been threads here (on PP) saying look Abdul Razzaq is a better ODI All Rounder than Kapil etc. (stats proved it as well) LOL
 
Monsee said:
Like your name EliteCynical, your stats are at best that!

One minor detail that was lacking in those stats is the element of 'Context' i.e. where, against whom, strength of opposition etc.

If these little tiny details are ignored, then there has been threads here (on PP) saying look Abdul Razzaq is a better ODI All Rounder than Kapil etc. (stats proved it as well) LOL
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Thanks for the kind words. Coming from a PP legend, I really appreciate it. Good, you bring in 'context' to this, that is precisely what I was trying to show with those stats, a contextual mirror. Also, if you check that Razzler v Paaji thread, I am sure some people would have actually posted in the affirmative. At least I openly accept that IK is incomparable in Asia.
 
All things change, but at this moment, the thread proposition is little better than a troll.

I don't care if the stats (on the surface) suggest that Ashwin is ahead at this stage in his career. Ashwin has a looooong way to go before he can be considered in the same ballpark as, far less being equivalent, far far less being equal to, Imran Khan.
 
Mamoon said:
Imran and Sachin fans are so easy to rattle. Doesn't take much to get them triggered. I guess it is a subcontinent issue.
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Quite true. We have a big problem in that area. Indian fans let themselves get trolled mercilessly on Sachin and Pak fans like Monsee get sensitive when anything is mentioned about Pak players. It's cute to see people get bothered by petty debate which have no real relevance to anyone's lives.
 
Very thought provoking thread. Ashwin on his way to surpass Imran.

However another thing that this thread made me realize is that Sangakkara has already overtaken Sachin as a batsman.
Average of 57 vs average of 53!
 
Stallion__ said:
Very thought provoking thread. Ashwin on his way to surpass Imran.

However another thing that this thread made me realize is that Sangakkara has already overtaken Sachin as a batsman.
Average of 57 vs average of 53!
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And Babar Azam is already better than Tendulkar. Azam hit a century in Australia vs Australia. Tendulkar did not hit a century outside Asia against any non minnow team in his first 10 years.
 
EliteCynical said:
Thanks man. For the record I agree Imran is the greatest all rounder from Asia and (not the world, as some people here think). Comparing Ashwin to him is actually a joke and even Ashwin would agree .

However as I said, putting hard facts on the table with stats, he is behind Ashwin after 49 tests and what I posted is not any other forum material. This is exactly what people post here in Pakpassion when an Indian batsman is compared with a Pakistani batsman (mind goes back to Babar v Kohli thread). They can carry on I suppose.

I agree with the silence part though!
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Not sure about others but my posts on those type of threads are usually tongue in cheek...

Comparing stats after X number of matches doesn't prove a lot, specially when the sample size is just a handful of matches.
 
EliteCynical said:
Thanks man. For the record I agree Imran is the greatest all rounder from Asia and (not the world, as some people here think). Comparing Ashwin to him is actually a joke and even Ashwin would agree .

However as I said, putting hard facts on the table with stats, he is behind Ashwin after 49 tests and what I posted is not any other forum material. This is exactly what people post here in Pakpassion when an Indian batsman is compared with a Pakistani batsman (mind goes back to Babar v Kohli thread). They can carry on I suppose.

I agree with the silence part though!
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Re: my 'bat ave of 50; bowl ave of 19 in last 10 years' comment was to show that he was as consistent as it gets with both bat and ball for a long period of time. This type of level that Ashwin must sustain to even compete with IK, and it's unlikely he'll do so.

And the only time we can come back to this thread is when Ashwin nears the end of his career. If you take Babar v Kohli debate to heart then you're simply a fool since how many names have we (Pak/Ind) have had who has been compared to 'the next x'. It's all feeble nonesense. I remember when Maqsood was being compared to Inzi cos they're from the same region or some drab. Countless Shehzad v Kohli; U Akmal v Kohli comparisons. I'm sure Indian fans were taking the latter two with a pinch of salt and probably thiought of these Pak fans as local jesters for a circus. But now we genuinely have a guy that could realistically compete with Kohli, that's when people ask the jesters heads to get chopped off. Yes, Babar has potential but Kohli's been there and done it and there's no denying who's the better batsmen. Again though, I'd personally take Babar v Kohli with a pinch of salt.

In other words, all threads comparing a guy to another guy is stupid. If you asked does Ashwin have to potential to be the best AR in Asia I'd say yes if he plays all his matches in India and stays not out when he bats. It's called a career for a reason, not 49 games.

Another argument could be in the case of context, as another PPer suggested since 'stats tell half the story', but that's for another thread.
 
Comparing Ashwin with Shakib, understandable (even though Shakib is a genuine all-rounder compared to Ashwin) but Imran Khan? Really now? I am curious to know how many of his wickets were taken in a turning track - in INDIA.
 
idrizzy said:
Re: my 'bat ave of 50; bowl ave of 19 in last 10 years' comment was to show that he was as consistent as it gets with both bat and ball for a long period of time. This type of level that Ashwin must sustain to even compete with IK, and it's unlikely he'll do so.

And the only time we can come back to this thread is when Ashwin nears the end of his career. If you take Babar v Kohli debate to heart then you're simply a fool since how many names have we (Pak/Ind) have had who has been compared to 'the next x'. It's all feeble nonesense. I remember when Maqsood was being compared to Inzi cos they're from the same region or some drab. Countless Shehzad v Kohli; U Akmal v Kohli comparisons. I'm sure Indian fans were taking the latter two with a pinch of salt and probably thiought of these Pak fans as local jesters for a circus. But now we genuinely have a guy that could realistically compete with Kohli, that's when people ask the jesters heads to get chopped off. Yes, Babar has potential but Kohli's been there and done it and there's no denying who's the better batsmen. Again though, I'd personally take Babar v Kohli with a pinch of salt.

In other words, all threads comparing a guy to another guy is stupid. If you asked does Ashwin have to potential to be the best AR in Asia I'd say yes if he plays all his matches in India and stays not out when he bats. It's called a career for a reason, not 49 games.

Another argument could be in the case of context, as another PPer suggested since 'stats tell half the story', but that's for another thread.
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Dear respected fellow poster. I request you to stop getting personal. Thanks.
 
Abdullah719 said:
Not sure about others but my posts on those type of threads are usually tongue in cheek...

Comparing stats after X number of matches doesn't prove a lot, specially when the sample size is just a handful of matches.
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Not directed at you. I know when a comment is tongue-in-cheek and when it is spiteful. You can see a few examples in this thread itself.
 
So what do People think about his now? when Ravi Ashwin has delivered one of his greatest Allround performances ?
 
After this performance, he has established himself as the greatest Asian Test all-rounder of all time. He can retire today and his legacy will be set in stone, but he still has about 4 years left and he will continue to build on this. Truly a once in a lifetime cricketer.

This is an incredible era of Indian cricket and they will remember and cherish it forever. The have the greatest Asian Test all-rounder of all time playing in the greatest Asian Test team of all time led by the greatest Asian Test captain of all time.

Rishabh Pant has all the qualities and the abilities to be recognized as the greatest Asian Test wicket-keeper batsman of all time. He is well on his way.

A truly incredible cricket team and an incredible generation of Indian players. A great privilege to have watched them play and follow their journey right from the beginning and hopefully till the end.
 
Imran by a country mile, I'm afraid take ashwain away from the dust bowls then hes decent at best
 
Just when you though indian fans cudnt come up with stupid comparisions they have decide on this one. While comparing stats did it occur to those that imran also played a few years of his test career as just a batsmen as he was unable to bowl due to injury. So his performances with ball in terms of wickets per tests in which he bowled would have been even greater.

Add to that if ashwin couldnt bowl for 2/3 years and just played as a batsmen would he have still been in the indian side.

Only shock is thread wasnt started by Mamoon.
 
Heisenberg111 said:
Is that you ? lol
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Heisenberg111 said:
How dare you think that mighty Ash won't surpass IK stats in records? lol
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That was 4 years ago. Things have changed since. He was not expected to play a starring role in two Test series win in Australia. He has now surpassed Imran and Kapil after his inspirational defiance at the SCG and this ATG innings on a rank-turner against England.

Truly the greatest Test all-rounder Asian cricket has ever seen.
 
Amjid Javed said:
Just when you though indian fans cudnt come up with stupid comparisions they have decide on this one. While comparing stats did it occur to those that imran also played a few years of his test career as just a batsmen as he was unable to bowl due to injury. So his performances with ball in terms of wickets per tests in which he bowled would have been even greater.

Add to that if ashwin couldnt bowl for 2/3 years and just played as a batsmen would he have still been in the indian side.

Only shock is thread wasnt started by Mamoon.
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The thread wasn't started by him but you can see his initial posts on this thread. Refers to posts #10 and 13 on this thread,plz.
 
Mamoon said:
That was 4 years ago. Things have changed since. He was not expected to play a starring role in two Test series win in Australia. He has now surpassed Imran and Kapil after his inspirational defiance at the SCG and this ATG innings on a rank-turner against England.

Truly the greatest Test all-rounder Asian cricket has ever seen.
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Good joke. We know what has changed it is Imran Khan becoming PM and you hating him.
Even if Ashwin has amazing few years he won't pass Imran Khan as a Test all-rounder. Imran stats speak for himself more hundreds, better batting average and bowling average. And that too in a much harder era. While Ashwin has got majority of his wickets on rank turners in India.

Keep living in your troll world and fooling yourself.
 
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Mamoon said:
After this performance, he has established himself as the greatest Asian Test all-rounder of all time. He can retire today and his legacy will be set in stone, but he still has about 4 years left and he will continue to build on this. Truly a once in a lifetime cricketer.

This is an incredible era of Indian cricket and they will remember and cherish it forever. The have the greatest Asian Test all-rounder of all time playing in the greatest Asian Test team of all time led by the greatest Asian Test captain of all time.

Rishabh Pant has all the qualities and the abilities to be recognized as the greatest Asian Test wicket-keeper batsman of all time. He is well on his way.

A truly incredible cricket team and an incredible generation of Indian players. A great privilege to have watched them play and follow their journey right from the beginning and hopefully till the end.
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Mate, cool your jets lol, I know you're doing it to rile up the Pakistanis but Ashwin is not a genuine all rounder. I mean, he had the potential to be one at the start of his career but his batting fell away badly as his bowling improved by leaps and bounds. He is more in the Hadlee/Shaun Pollock mould of all rounders - gun bowlers plus a handy bat.

I think Jadeja has insane potential as an all rounder which he hasn't yet fulfilled in my opinion and I think he will finish his career as the 2nd best ever all rounder from Asia after IK. A lot of people will say Stokes because he has played more memorable innings that stick to your mind, but statistically Jadeja has been the best all rounder in test cricket in the past few years.
 
Mamoon said:
That was 4 years ago. Things have changed since. He was not expected to play a starring role in two Test series win in Australia. He has now surpassed Imran and Kapil after his inspirational defiance at the SCG and this ATG innings on a rank-turner against England.

Truly the greatest Test all-rounder Asian cricket has ever seen.
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Another copy paste job from the essay files. Like a broken record now with all this trolling.
 
When this thread started Ashwin had a better career batting average then he has now. He went downhill. People going gaga and doing bhangra over his hundred in home conditions against England. Yasir Shah got a hundred in Australia so.

And Imran batting average is better by 9 which is alot and he played more games and tougher era. Plus bowling average is better by 3 and Ashwin has been lucky to get rank turners in India where he has got majority of his wickets.

Only trolls and haters will say Ashwin a better all-rounder.

Mamoon just hates Pakistan and especially Imran Khan. 4 years back he was saying Ashwin will never beat Imran Khan in stats and become a better all-rounder and 4 years on Ashwin stats especially batting gone downhill and he saying he's better just as Imran Khan ii PM now which he can't digest and hates.
 
One decent performance in Australia and all of a sudden Ashwins best all rounder history of the game has seen. Really shows the stupidity and ignorance of some indian fans. Not even April 1st yet.
 
street cricketer said:
Mate, cool your jets lol, I know you're doing it to rile up the Pakistanis but Ashwin is not a genuine all rounder. I mean, he had the potential to be one at the start of his career but his batting fell away badly as his bowling improved by leaps and bounds. He is more in the Hadlee/Shaun Pollock mould of all rounders - gun bowlers plus a handy bat.

I think Jadeja has insane potential as an all rounder which he hasn't yet fulfilled in my opinion and I think he will finish his career as the 2nd best ever all rounder from Asia after IK. A lot of people will say Stokes because he has played more memorable innings that stick to your mind, but statistically Jadeja has been the best all rounder in test cricket in the past few years.
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This, thanks for bringing some sanity to this thread.
 
street cricketer said:
Mate, cool your jets lol, I know you're doing it to rile up the Pakistanis but Ashwin is not a genuine all rounder. I mean, he had the potential to be one at the start of his career but his batting fell away badly as his bowling improved by leaps and bounds. He is more in the Hadlee/Shaun Pollock mould of all rounders - gun bowlers plus a handy bat.

I think Jadeja has insane potential as an all rounder which he hasn't yet fulfilled in my opinion and I think he will finish his career as the 2nd best ever all rounder from Asia after IK. A lot of people will say Stokes because he has played more memorable innings that stick to your mind, but statistically Jadeja has been the best all rounder in test cricket in the past few years.
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Let him make a fool of himself :P
 
street cricketer said:
Mate, cool your jets lol, I know you're doing it to rile up the Pakistanis but Ashwin is not a genuine all rounder. I mean, he had the potential to be one at the start of his career but his batting fell away badly as his bowling improved by leaps and bounds. He is more in the Hadlee/Shaun Pollock mould of all rounders - gun bowlers plus a handy bat.

I think Jadeja has insane potential as an all rounder which he hasn't yet fulfilled in my opinion and I think he will finish his career as the 2nd best ever all rounder from Asia after IK. A lot of people will say Stokes because he has played more memorable innings that stick to your mind, but statistically Jadeja has been the best all rounder in test cricket in the past few years.
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I doubt if Jadeja can reach the level of Kapil Dev let alone surpass him. He does have stats but they are inflated. Great all-rounder but not an ATG all-rounder like Kapil.

Agreed on Ashwin. As an all-rounder, no but as a test cricketer, I would consider putting him ahead of Kapil Dev.
 
street cricketer said:
Mate, cool your jets lol, I know you're doing it to rile up the Pakistanis but Ashwin is not a genuine all rounder. I mean, he had the potential to be one at the start of his career but his batting fell away badly as his bowling improved by leaps and bounds. He is more in the Hadlee/Shaun Pollock mould of all rounders - gun bowlers plus a handy bat.

I think Jadeja has insane potential as an all rounder which he hasn't yet fulfilled in my opinion and I think he will finish his career as the 2nd best ever all rounder from Asia after IK. A lot of people will say Stokes because he has played more memorable innings that stick to your mind, but statistically Jadeja has been the best all rounder in test cricket in the past few years.
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Do you see Ashwin overtaking Kapil as an allrounder or Jadeja overtaking Imran? Jadeja can overtake IMO, its already very close between the two statistically.
 
street cricketer said:
Mate, cool your jets lol, I know you're doing it to rile up the Pakistanis but Ashwin is not a genuine all rounder. I mean, he had the potential to be one at the start of his career but his batting fell away badly as his bowling improved by leaps and bounds. He is more in the Hadlee/Shaun Pollock mould of all rounders - gun bowlers plus a handy bat.

I think Jadeja has insane potential as an all rounder which he hasn't yet fulfilled in my opinion and I think he will finish his career as the 2nd best ever all rounder from Asia after IK. A lot of people will say Stokes because he has played more memorable innings that stick to your mind, but statistically Jadeja has been the best all rounder in test cricket in the past few years.
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Cricket has only had one genuine all-rounder and that was Botham, who in his prime was a world class batsman and a world class bowler.

Every other great all-rounder, be it Sobers, Imran, Kapil, Kallis, Pollock, Flintoff, Stokes, Shakib, Ashwin etc. all had stronger and weaker suits.

In the vast majority of cases, their weaker suit is not strong enough to make a strong team on merit.

For example, Imran as a batsman might have been valuable for Pakistan in his time, but he will never get into a strong batting lineup in any era because purely as a batsman he was not world class.

Similarly, Kapil was worth his weight in gold for Indian cricket but how many great lineups across eras will Kapil walk into purely as a batsmen? Probably none.

Stokes will not make the England team today if he cannot bat.

Ashwin won’t make it into the Indian team if he cannot bowl.

Kallis would not have made it in the South African team purely as a bowler and Pollock would not have made it purely as a batsman.

The concept of genuine all-rounder is largely a myth and it was only disproved by Ian Botham during his first 50 odd Tests where both his batting and bowling were good enough for him to get into almost every team and in most eras purely as a batsman or as a bowler.

As a result, peak Botham is the only genuine all-rounder and thus the greatest all-rounder ever.

Hence, it is futile to downplay Ashwin because his batting is not world class.
 
I think Ashwin batting has declined so I don't consider him a true all rounder.

He is definitely a top class spinner and can be in the debate for greatest test spinner. But not all rounder debate.

He's had a great test career so far.
 
Mamoon said:
Cricket has only had one genuine all-rounder and that was Botham, who in his prime was a world class batsman and a world class bowler.

Every other great all-rounder, be it Sobers, Imran, Kapil, Kallis, Pollock, Flintoff, Stokes, Shakib, Ashwin etc. all had stronger and weaker suits.

In the vast majority of cases, their weaker suit is not strong enough to make a strong team on merit.

For example, Imran as a batsman might have been valuable for Pakistan in his time, but he will never get into a strong batting lineup in any era because purely as a batsman he was not world class.

Similarly, Kapil was worth his weight in gold for Indian cricket but how many great lineups across eras will Kapil walk into purely as a batsmen? Probably none.

Stokes will not make the England team today if he cannot bat.

Ashwin won’t make it into the Indian team if he cannot bowl.

Kallis would not have made it in the South African team purely as a bowler and Pollock would not have made it purely as a batsman.

The concept of genuine all-rounder is largely a myth and it was only disproved by Ian Botham during his first 50 odd Tests where both his batting and bowling were good enough for him to get into almost every team and in most eras purely as a batsman or as a bowler.

As a result, peak Botham is the only genuine all-rounder and thus the greatest all-rounder ever.

Hence, it is futile to downplay Ashwin because his batting is not world class.
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What you say is true. It is physically impossible for a player to be equally good with both bat and the ball simultaneously, and if he tries to be one, he will get physically and mentally worn out after a few years. Even when Imran had insane stats in the last 10 years, it was through phases where he was great with the ball and not as great with the bat and very good performances with the bat when he couldn't bowl due to injury.

But when I meant genuine all rounder, I mean someone with high class skill in one discipline plus a dependable skill level in another. Imran was high class with the ball, and he was stoic and dependable with the bat. His batting average of 37 with 6 tons and 18 50s indicate that. Ashwin might surpass Imran with the tons count at the end of his career (he's currently on 5 tons) but his current sub 30 average with the bat shows he isn't consistent. He is already 34 now, so although last few performances kinda feel like a second wind to his batting, I don't see a great upside to his batting from now till the end of his career. It's why I categorised Ashwin as a handy bat rather than a dependable batsman.
 
Mamoon said:
That was 4 years ago. Things have changed since. He was not expected to play a starring role in two Test series win in Australia. He has now surpassed Imran and Kapil after his inspirational defiance at the SCG and this ATG innings on a rank-turner against England.

Truly the greatest Test all-rounder Asian cricket has ever seen.
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Why disrespect mighty Ash by calling him GOAT from Asia? Just call him the World's GOAT, Period.
 
Ab Fan said:
I doubt if Jadeja can reach the level of Kapil Dev let alone surpass him. He does have stats but they are inflated. Great all-rounder but not an ATG all-rounder like Kapil.

Agreed on Ashwin. As an all-rounder, no but as a test cricketer, I would consider putting him ahead of Kapil Dev.
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Kapil is the GOAT ODI all rounder, his peak is a league above any of the past and present all rounders in one day cricket but in test cricket, he was always the weakest among the 4 great all rounders of the 80s era. And I don't know why you feel Jadeja's stats are inflated. I assume you feel like many, he's just a rank turner bully. But Jadeja averages 21 with the ball after 4 tests in Australia. Small sample size I know but better bowlers than him like Murali have been treated with contempt in Australia, so it's no mean feat. He has played one good match in SA (the only match he played) and averages sub 30 in SL and WI. He only has a poor record in NZ and Eng.

And it's not like Kapil didn't have weakness in his record. He was particularly known for being great with the ball in Australia and West Indies and carrying a minnow level pace attack on his shoulders at home and abroad, but for someone who was a classical swing bowler who had a beautiful outswinger, he doesn't have a great record with the ball in England and NZ where you would expect swing bowlers to flourish. Same with SA. Kapil will be remembered as someone who brought his best in the backyard of the best, i.e., West Indies and Australia but he wasn't as lethal with the ball in some other places for a bowler of his caliber.
 
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szrana007 said:
Do you see Ashwin overtaking Kapil as an allrounder or Jadeja overtaking Imran? Jadeja can overtake IMO, its already very close between the two statistically.
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Jadeja needs to score a few more tons to be in conversation with Imran. He has just one ton in his test career. If he can score something like 6-8 tons and maintain his performance with the ball before he retires, he can be comparable to Imran. Theoretically possible yeah, but hard to see it happening because Jadeja is already 33 I think.

Ashwin's legacy at the end of his career will not be as an all rounder, but as one of the greatest matchwinners in the history of the game. He has already 7 Man of the series awards in test cricket, something very few test cricketers achieved even at the end of their career. Imran, Hadlee and Warne are ahead of him with 8 awards, Kallis with 9 man of the series awards and Murali has 13 awards in his test career. Realistically, if he can maintain his fitness (which is a question with Ashwin), he can challenge Murali's record
 
street cricketer said:
Kapil is the GOAT ODI all rounder, his peak is a league above any of the past and present all rounders in one day cricket but in test cricket, he was always the weakest among the 4 great all rounders of the 80s era. And I don't know why you feel Jadeja's stats are inflated. I assume you feel like many, he's just a rank turner bully. But Jadeja averages 21 with the ball after 4 tests in Australia. Small sample size I know but better bowlers than him like Murali have been treated with contempt in Australia, so it's no mean feat. He has played one good match in SA (the only match he played) and averages sub 30 in SL and WI. He only has a poor record in NZ and Eng.

And it's not like Kapil didn't have weakness in his record. He was particularly known for being great with the ball in Australia and West Indies and carrying a minnow level pace attack on his shoulders at home and abroad, but for someone who was a classical swing bowler who had a beautiful outswinger, he doesn't have a great record with the ball in England and NZ where you would expect swing bowlers to flourish. Same with SA. Kapil will be remembered as someone who brought his best in the backyard of the best, i.e., West Indies and Australia but he wasn't as lethal with the ball in some other places for a bowler of his caliber.
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It is not about rank turners, honestly if you remove 4-5 matches played on rank turners, their overall stats will still hardly make a difference ( maybe by 1-1.5 but that's about).

The thing with Jadeja is that during the first half of his career, it was always between one of him and Ashwin to play in overseas tests and generally Ashwin got preferred except a few tests here and there. Ashwin has an average of 25 and is undoubtedly the best spinner of this generation. Jadeja is also brilliant but I don't think he is as good as Ashwin with the bowl or he is even talked as highly for his bowling as Ashwin is which is why that average of 24 with bowl is inflated.

His batting skills are better than Ashwin but in past he batted mostly at no 8 and had a very higher share of not-outs. He needs to hit a few test hundreds to be rated in that elite league. Kapil Dev has 434 test wickets but also over 5000 test runs at a very healthy strike rate, he is an ATG all-rounder even though in test format he was the weakest of the four elites of his era. The average factor comes later when you have that many wickets and runs.
 
street cricketer said:
Jadeja needs to score a few more tons to be in conversation with Imran. He has just one ton in his test career. If he can score something like 6-8 tons and maintain his performance with the ball before he retires, he can be comparable to Imran. Theoretically possible yeah, but hard to see it happening because Jadeja is already 33 I think.

Ashwin's legacy at the end of his career will not be as an all rounder, but as one of the greatest matchwinners in the history of the game. He has already 7 Man of the series awards in test cricket, something very few test cricketers achieved even at the end of their career. Imran, Hadlee and Warne are ahead of him with 8 awards, Kallis with 9 man of the series awards and Murali has 13 awards in his test career. Realistically, if he can maintain his fitness (which is a question with Ashwin), he can challenge Murali's record
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Yeah, Jadeja needs more tons, with the ball though, IK and Jadeja are comparable already.
 
szrana007 said:
Jadeja and IK are quite close stats wise.
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Let him play 25-30 tests more. If he is really that good, I am sure he will maintain that.
Jadeja is a magnificent fielder though. That catch of Neil Wagner in New Zealand and that throw to run out Steve Smith was sensational.
 
Ashwin is a brilliant spinner n a very good lower order bat

But Even hed admit hes not an allrounder
 
I get the feeling that a lot of people here prefer to read off statistics rather that actually watch cricket, cricket is a game to watch with your eyes not with a calculator in hand. Next you will be telling me that Kallis and Sangakkara were better batsmen than Tendulkar. The fact is that anyone who watched Imran throughout his career, and then also watched Jadeja and Ashwin will be able to tell you that there is no comparision between them whatsoever; Imran is by far the superior cricketer and all rounder.
 
Zaz said:
Ashwin is a brilliant spinner n a very good lower order bat

But Even hed admit hes not an allrounder
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He has got 5 tons and 10+ half centuries, you really think a bowler who could bat a bit can achieve that? Players with far worse stats are considered allrounders. He is a proper allrounder with bowling being his strongest suite.
 
Rellu_Katta said:
Imran
Kapil
Sakib
Mushtaq Muhammad
Ashwin

anyone disgree? plz bring solid arguments
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You gotta be friggin kidding me right? Mushtaq doesn't even have 80 wickets in test cricket, he was a part time bowler for most of his career!!:rp

He was a decent bat and a reliable part timer with the ball with a few notable performances, has not done enough to be discussed along with top allrounders. If he was an allrounder than Harbhajan Singh with 2000+ runs and 400+ wickets was an allrounder too and a better one at that. :ds
 
Hyperion66 said:
You gotta be friggin kidding me right? Mushtaq doesn't even have 80 wickets in test cricket, he was a part time bowler for most of his career!!:rp

He was a decent bat and a reliable part timer with the ball with a few notable performances, has not done enough to be discussed along with top allrounders. If he was an allrounder than Harbhajan Singh with 2000+ runs and 400+ wickets was an allrounder too and a better one at that. :ds
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again , see his games... the generation that did has very different views on tht...
 
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