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Brexit - BIG Irish border problem between Ireland and Northern Ireland (part of the UK)

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] [MENTION=44089]Eagle_Eye[/MENTION] [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] @Donal_Cozzie

So the cat is out of the bag - David Davis admits this morning on Marr his aim is for a "Canada plus plus plus" trade deal. Michel Barnier's leaked memo last month also hints at a Canadian-style FTA (with no further inducements thereby ruling out Davis's non-defined "pluses"), so we are willing to endure years of struggle for a deal WORSE than existing arrangements.

Let's be clear what Canada's arrangement is. It does not significantly reduce non-tariff barriers (these barriers are far more relevant in today's world than tariffs which are already low) such as EU rules of origin requirements.

CETA does NOT guarantee Canadian firms an EU financial services "passport" which is significant for the UK economy that's heavily reliant on the financial sector. I wonder how the City of London who bankroll the Tory Party will react when presented with such a deal ! A Canadian-style FTA would not offer the same level of access to EU markets for UK businesses as our membership of the Single Market and Customs Union enables.

Now I can already hear the Leavers' cry "But Britain would get a better FTA due to its size and proximity etc" - what makes one think the EU would undermine its own Single Market and Customs Union by giving Britain a more favourable agreement ?! What incentive would the EU have to strike such a deal given it would be license for other third countries to tear up their own deals with the EU, and they've already warned the EU not to give Britain a more preferential arrangement.

The upside is that Canada doesn't have to sign up to Freedom of Movement, but are the British so steeped in their hatred of the sight of immigrants that they'd be willing to incur the economic damage of such an inadequate deal ? Theresa May has only herself to blame by ruling out continued membership of the Single Market and Customs Union - a sensible Norway/Switzerland-style deal that would respect the outcome of the referendum but protect our economy thus ending this saga tomorrow.

Brexiters and the UK Gov seem to be claiming that in the event of no deal Britain can diverge from EU rules, despite this completely contradicting the agreement just signed.

One growing and gargantuan mess. Whole thing should have been scrapped after Davis himself admitted not one impact study was carried out. Such baffling incompetence
 
[MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION]

WTH doe this mean?


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...it-rebels-inflict-major-defeat-on-theresa-may

Conservative rebels inflicted a humiliating defeat on Theresa May in the House of Commons as they backed an amendment to her flagship European Union withdrawal bill over parliament’s right to a meaningful vote on the Brexit deal.

As the prime minister prepared to meet her fellow EU leaders in Brussels on Thursday, a series of last minute concessions by ministers and intense pressure from Tory whips failed to deter 11 of the government’s MPs from voting against the leadership.
 
It means that the executive (Mrs May and he Cabinet) cannot railroad through whatever deal they come up with. Parliament has to agree to it.

I can see the Brexit date being put back indefinitely here......
 
Brexiteers still deluded. Still don't have a clue. And Theresa May still thinks she can wave a magic wand and the EU/ NI/ Hard Border / Good Friday Agreement problem will disappear.

Ireland must come first in Brexit talks, says European council president

Donald Tusk, the president of the European council, has said that Ireland must come first in the Brexit talks. He made the comment on a visit to Dublin, where he is meeting the Irish prime minister Leo Varadkar.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rve-agent-attack-on-russian-spy-politics-live

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If in London someone assumes that the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Brexit?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Brexit</a> negotiations will deal with other issues first, before moving to the Irish issue, my response would be: Ireland first.</p>— Donald Tusk (@eucopresident) <a href="https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/971771754325700608?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 8, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], [MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION], [MENTION=19480]eagle-eye[/MENTION], [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION], [MENTION=7898]Gabbar Singh[/MENTION], [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION], [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION]
 
Typical EU bullying.

First EU demanded divorce terms, now the Irish border.

The Irish border is more of a concern for the UK, than the EU.

Of course, UK should threaten the EU and say no deal meaning UK walks away and the EU can forget about the £40 divorce bill.
 
Typical EU bullying.

First EU demanded divorce terms, now the Irish border.

The Irish border is more of a concern for the UK, than the EU.

Of course, UK should threaten the EU and say no deal meaning UK walks away and the EU can forget about the £40 divorce bill.
You don't really understand the agreement made between the EU and Theresa May last December, or the Good Friday Agreement, or what Customs Union means and the issues arising from the UK (inc NI) and EU (inc Ireland) having separate import tariffs but no border controls between NI and Ireland, do you? :facepalm:

'Cause if you did, you wouldn't be making such comments. But then again, that's the norm for Brexiteers.
 
You don't really understand the agreement made between the EU and Theresa May last December, or the Good Friday Agreement, or what Customs Union means and the issues arising from the UK (inc NI) and EU (inc Ireland) having separate import tariffs but no border controls between NI and Ireland, do you? :facepalm:

'Cause if you did, you wouldn't be making such comments. But then again, that's the norm for Brexiteers.

Well if you understand the Irish border issue, then explain how it undermines the GFA. Don't give me some wishy washy answer like people will feel angry; hardcore reasons why the GFA will be undermined.

Then, explain why the EU did not mention the Irish border from the onset? Why is it an issue now? If you are really worried about borders, then talk to me about the solution for Gibraltar. Or let me guess, that will be a priority once Ireland border issue is resolved?

Trimble: “Rubbish” that Brexit will undermine Good Friday Agreement

Lord Trimble, one of the architects of the Good Friday Agreement, has hit out at claims that Brexit will put the historic peace accord in Northern Ireland at risk, while saying that the continuation of an open Irish border will only be “impossible” if the EU insists on imposing restrictions on the Republic of Ireland.

http://brexitcentral.com/trimble-rubbish-brexit-undermine-good-friday-agreement/
 
I've given up debating this tbh. I have plenty of posts people can read earlier in this and other threads if they wish. No point wasting time on those who dont want to actually read.

Solutions still remain unchanged.

1) NI remains in SM and CU, customs checks at NI ports
2) UK remains in SM and CU
3) No Brexit.

Simple as that.
 
Not a single one of the Remoaners has done their homework.

Free goods and free movement between Ireland and NI was around since 1993! Yes 1993! BEFORE the GFA in 1997!

The GFA was not signed because of the free border.

Let this sink in.
 
Well if you understand the Irish border issue, then explain how it undermines the GFA. Don't give me some wishy washy answer like people will feel angry; hardcore reasons why the GFA will be undermined.
First of all, let me explain the implications of no border controls of any kind (electronic or otherwise) between NI (UK) and Ireland (EU):

Imagine that the UK sets a 20% tariff on Japanese cars, while the EU sets a 10% tariff. Without border controls between the UK and EU, you could import cars to Ireland, paying 10% tariff, take them across the border to NI, and then into the rest of the UK, thereby avoiding the UK's 20% tariff, thus undermining the UK’s trade policy along with the UK losing out on 20% import duty.

Similarly, imagine that the UK does a trade deal with the US, and agrees to admit American beef duty free, while the EU retains a 15% tariff. Again, absent border controls between the UK and EU, a trader could import US beef into the UK/NI, take it across to Ireland, ship it to the rest of the EU, thereby avoiding the 15% EU tariff, thus undermining EU trade policy along with the EU losing out on 15% import duty.

So long as the UK and EU set different tariffs, therefore, there have to be border controls between them to ensure that Japanese cars, US beef, or any other goods where the EU and UK have different tariffs, are not getting in 'by the back door' of NI/Ireland.

And that's without even considering the effects on direct trade between Irish and Northern Irish businesses and farmers.


Then, explain why the EU did not mention the Irish border from the onset? Why is it an issue now? If you are really worried about borders, then talk to me about the solution for Gibraltar. Or let me guess, that will be a priority once Ireland border issue is resolved?
It's the UK that has decided to leave the EU, and not the other way around. It was therefore the UK politicians and Brexiteers job to understand the ramifications of leaving the EU, and not the job of the rest of the EU to get involved with explaining it to Brexiteers before the Referendum, especially considering that would have meant the EU interfering in the UK's internal politics.
 
First of all, let me explain the implications of no border controls of any kind (electronic or otherwise) between NI (UK) and Ireland (EU):

Imagine that the UK sets a 20% tariff on Japanese cars, while the EU sets a 10% tariff. Without border controls between the UK and EU, you could import cars to Ireland, paying 10% tariff, take them across the border to NI, and then into the rest of the UK, thereby avoiding the UK's 20% tariff, thus undermining the UK’s trade policy along with the UK losing out on 20% import duty.

Similarly, imagine that the UK does a trade deal with the US, and agrees to admit American beef duty free, while the EU retains a 15% tariff. Again, absent border controls between the UK and EU, a trader could import US beef into the UK/NI, take it across to Ireland, ship it to the rest of the EU, thereby avoiding the 15% EU tariff, thus undermining EU trade policy along with the EU losing out on 15% import duty.

So long as the UK and EU set different tariffs, therefore, there have to be border controls between them to ensure that Japanese cars, US beef, or any other goods where the EU and UK have different tariffs, are not getting in 'by the back door' of NI/Ireland.

And that's without even considering the effects on direct trade between Irish and Northern Irish businesses and farmers.

It's the UK that has decided to leave the EU, and not the other way around. It was therefore the UK politicians and Brexiteers job to understand the ramifications of leaving the EU, and not the job of the rest of the EU to get involved with explaining it to Brexiteers before the Referendum, especially considering that would have meant the EU interfering in the UK's internal politics.

Thank you for the detailed response, but unfortunately for you, not a single word has to do with the Good Friday Agreement. :19:
 
Forgot to add, the simple solution is to move the border to the sea. All imports/exports to Ireland/NI from/to mainland UK will be subject to checks, while the border between Ireland and NI will remain open.

It really is this simple.
 
Thank you for the detailed response, but unfortunately for you, not a single word has to do with the Good Friday Agreement. :19:
Well if you don't have border controls of any kind, then people can also move freely between the NI and Ireland. Meaning, just like goods, EU citizens from Romania, Poland etc. could come into Ireland without visa, drive across to NI and then on into the rest of the UK.

Now if you do decide to have border controls of any kind, electronic or physical (thus avoiding the above problem as well as the tariff issues from my previous post), then you are breaking the GFA which specifically forbids it.

Whilst I suggest you go and read a summary of the GFA in relation to the various cross-border agreements underpinning it, and how some of these are incompatible with a hard border, I will simply give you one example of the effects:

The Good Friday Agreement provides that the people of Northern Ireland may choose to have Irish citizenship or British citizenship, or both. Those born in Northern Ireland (and their spouses and children) are thus entitled (in the case of spouses after a period of residence) to both UK and Irish passports, although in practice many have only Irish, or only UK, passports.

Over time, reciprocal rights for UK and Irish nationals (some of which are legally enforceable) now include the right to enter and reside in the UK and Ireland, the right to work, the right to study, access to social welfare entitlements and benefits and access to health services, and the right to vote in local and parliamentary elections.

When it was concluded, the GFA clearly presupposed that both Ireland and the United Kingdom would both be members of the European Union — no one even contemplated the idea that one of them might leave the EU, a view endorsed by the UK Supreme Court in Miller. This significantly affected the way in which rights in the GFA were dealt with. This, in turn, affected the framework of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and, indirectly, the wider UK devolution settlement.

In particular, rights deriving from the EU provided one element of the common understanding of rights shared between the UK and Ireland (the other important dimension being the ECHR). In addition, there is a wide range of rights afforded to people in Northern Ireland directly under EU law. These include the European Single MarketÂ’s four freedoms (free movement of goods, capital, services, and people), and rights such as EU equality law, that together with domestic anti-discrimination law, partially meet obligations under the GFA.

Ireland and Northern Ireland are both bound by the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, for example, when government implements EU law. Ireland and Northern Ireland are both subject to the fundamental rights jurisprudence of the Court of Justice of the European Union (the CJEUÂ’), part of EU law’s general principles.

In short, several of the rights and entitlements that are provided for directly or indirectly in the GFA are themselves either directly or indirectly underpinned by EU law, and its system of effective remedies


some extracts taken from : https://medium.com/brexit-briefings/the-good-friday-agreement-brexit-and-rights-1c0af667440b


Hope that's no too complicated for you to understand. 'Cause it's far too complicated for the likes of Boris Johnson, Theresa May et al to understand!
 
Forgot to add, the simple solution is to move the border to the sea. All imports/exports to Ireland/NI from/to mainland UK will be subject to checks, while the border between Ireland and NI will remain open.

It really is this simple.
Short of canceling Brexit and/or the UK remaining part of the CU and Single Market, the border being the Irish sea is the only solution. But the DUP and the UK government have already declared no to that.
 
Well if you don't have border controls of any kind, then people can also move freely between the NI and Ireland. Meaning, just like goods, EU citizens from Romania, Poland etc. could come into Ireland without visa, drive across to NI and then on into the rest of the UK.

Now if you do decide to have border controls of any kind, electronic or physical (thus avoiding the above problem as well as the tariff issues from my previous post), then you are breaking the GFA which specifically forbids it.

Whilst I suggest you go and read a summary of the GFA in relation to the various cross-border agreements underpinning it, and how some of these are incompatible with a hard border, I will simply give you one example of the effects:

The Good Friday Agreement provides that the people of Northern Ireland may choose to have Irish citizenship or British citizenship, or both. Those born in Northern Ireland (and their spouses and children) are thus entitled (in the case of spouses after a period of residence) to both UK and Irish passports, although in practice many have only Irish, or only UK, passports.

Over time, reciprocal rights for UK and Irish nationals (some of which are legally enforceable) now include the right to enter and reside in the UK and Ireland, the right to work, the right to study, access to social welfare entitlements and benefits and access to health services, and the right to vote in local and parliamentary elections.

When it was concluded, the GFA clearly presupposed that both Ireland and the United Kingdom would both be members of the European Union — no one even contemplated the idea that one of them might leave the EU, a view endorsed by the UK Supreme Court in Miller. This significantly affected the way in which rights in the GFA were dealt with. This, in turn, affected the framework of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and, indirectly, the wider UK devolution settlement.

In particular, rights deriving from the EU provided one element of the common understanding of rights shared between the UK and Ireland (the other important dimension being the ECHR). In addition, there is a wide range of rights afforded to people in Northern Ireland directly under EU law. These include the European Single MarketÂ’s four freedoms (free movement of goods, capital, services, and people), and rights such as EU equality law, that together with domestic anti-discrimination law, partially meet obligations under the GFA.

Ireland and Northern Ireland are both bound by the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights, for example, when government implements EU law. Ireland and Northern Ireland are both subject to the fundamental rights jurisprudence of the Court of Justice of the European Union (the CJEUÂ’), part of EU law’s general principles.

In short, several of the rights and entitlements that are provided for directly or indirectly in the GFA are themselves either directly or indirectly underpinned by EU law, and its system of effective remedies


some extracts taken from : https://medium.com/brexit-briefings/the-good-friday-agreement-brexit-and-rights-1c0af667440b


Hope that's no too complicated for you to understand. 'Cause it's far too complicated for the likes of Boris Johnson, Theresa May et al to understand!

I got news for you bruv, people were able to move freely between Ireland and NI since 1923. Yup, Nineteen Twenty Three! (Goods since 1993).
 
Short of canceling Brexit and/or the UK remaining part of the CU and Single Market, the border being the Irish sea is the only solution. But the DUP and the UK government have already declared no to that.

I think it's all bravado. Offer DUP another £1 Billion and I am sure they will melt like butter.
 
I got news for you bruv, people were able to move freely between Ireland and NI since 1923. Yup, Nineteen Twenty Three! (Goods since 1993).
Clearly you didn't comprehend anything written in that post. Appears as if you don't even understand the background to the Troubles and all the bloodshed, and the reasons for the Good Friday Agreement in the first place. I politely suggest you go and make some effort in reading about the Troubles, about the GFA, and how/why it resulted in relative peace.

Otherwise making simplistic statements of the type you're making gives the impression that you derive all of your knowledge on the topic of NI / Troubles / GFA comes from reading the Daily Fail and The Sun.
 
I think it's all bravado. Offer DUP another £1 Billion and I am sure they will melt like butter.
Do you know why the likes of the DUP even exist?
Hint: Do everything and anything to ensure NI doesn't slowly edge towards being a part of a united Ireland and thus not being part of Britain
 
Clearly you didn't comprehend anything written in that post. Appears as if you don't even understand the background to the Troubles and all the bloodshed, and the reasons for the Good Friday Agreement in the first place. I politely suggest you go and make some effort in reading about the Troubles, about the GFA, and how/why it resulted in relative peace.

Otherwise making simplistic statements of the type you're making gives the impression that you derive all of your knowledge on the topic of NI / Troubles / GFA comes from reading the Daily Fail and The Sun.

The troubles are clearly down to Catholics and Protestants division, NOTHING to do with the border.

You have been stumped.

You talk of freedom of movement, since 1923 there has been freedom of movement between NI and Ireland. You talk of nationality, since 1923, nationality has not been an issue in Ireland. You talk of Customs Union and Single Market, been there since 1993 BEFORE GFA. Sweet FA to do with GFA. Sea border resolves the issue.

Perhaps you should come back with better, and educated responses, than parroting James O’Brien from LBC, and the lefty tree huggers who will not accept the democratic will of the people.

As for your suggestion on reading, well, you made a great meal of it. I asked you how the GFA agreement is undermined by a hard border, and you come out with tariffs.

Of course, you are free to leave the UK if you wish to remain subservient to your EU masters who are taking you for a ride when it comes to the border issue. The fact the EU agenda is changing on a monthly basis is all but lost upon you.

Oh one last point, I have been around longer than you to understand the i*troubles* with Ireland/NI. I live through the period IRA were carpet bombing England for fun.

:19:
 
Do you know why the likes of the DUP even exist?
Hint: Do everything and anything to ensure NI doesn't slowly edge towards being a part of a united Ireland and thus not being part of Britain

Oh please. DUP were raised to prominence due to Theresa May's complacency and inability to govern the UK. Otherwise DUP would've remained a footnote in British politics.
 
The troubles are clearly down to Catholics and Protestants division, NOTHING to do with the border.

You have been stumped.

You talk of freedom of movement, since 1923 there has been freedom of movement between NI and Ireland. You talk of nationality, since 1923, nationality has not been an issue in Ireland. You talk of Customs Union and Single Market, been there since 1993 BEFORE GFA. Sweet FA to do with GFA. Sea border resolves the issue.

Perhaps you should come back with better, and educated responses, than parroting James O’Brien from LBC, and the lefty tree huggers who will not accept the democratic will of the people.

As for your suggestion on reading, well, you made a great meal of it. I asked you how the GFA agreement is undermined by a hard border, and you come out with tariffs.

Of course, you are free to leave the UK if you wish to remain subservient to your EU masters who are taking you for a ride when it comes to the border issue. The fact the EU agenda is changing on a monthly basis is all but lost upon you.

Oh one last point, I have been around longer than you to understand the i*troubles* with Ireland/NI. I live through the period IRA were carpet bombing England for fun.

:19:
"The troubles are clearly down to Catholics and Protestants division, NOTHING to do with the border. "

NOTHING to do with the border? You do realise that the whole reason for the Troubles was because, due to discrimination etc, the Nationalists wanted a united Ireland, meaning ONE country, meaning no BORDER!

It's clearly not worth arguing against all the rubbish you're spouting due to your ignorance on the topic. You're clearly unable to comprehend the fact that Brexit, tariffs, CU, Single Market, CJEU, the NI/Ireland border issue are all intertwined and interlinked, and any changes there will have a direct bearing on the GFA.

Why else do you think it has become such a major issue vis-a-vis Brexit when direct trade between NI and Ireland is a very small fraction in terms of the overall trade between the UK and the EU?

One thing I do agree with you though is that making the Irish sea as the UK / Ireland customs border will solve many problems.

As for living 'through the period IRA were carpet bombing England for fun', only thing to say is that I passed through the Arndale Centre less than 30 minutes before it was blown up by the IRA.
 
Have to say my favourite thing about Brexit by miles and I speak for the general population here has been the volume of right wing brexiters ignoring absolutely everything virtually every Irish person has been telling them on this issue for years now and patting us on the head as if they know more about our own island and country than we do ourselves.
 
"The troubles are clearly down to Catholics and Protestants division, NOTHING to do with the border. "

NOTHING to do with the border? You do realise that the whole reason for the Troubles was because, due to discrimination etc, the Nationalists wanted a united Ireland, meaning ONE country, meaning no BORDER!

It's clearly not worth arguing against all the rubbish you're spouting due to your ignorance on the topic. You're clearly unable to comprehend the fact that Brexit, tariffs, CU, Single Market, CJEU, the NI/Ireland border issue are all intertwined and interlinked, and any changes there will have a direct bearing on the GFA.

Why else do you think it has become such a major issue vis-a-vis Brexit when direct trade between NI and Ireland is a very small fraction in terms of the overall trade between the UK and the EU?

One thing I do agree with you though is that making the Irish sea as the UK / Ireland customs border will solve many problems.

As for living 'through the period IRA were carpet bombing England for fun', only thing to say is that I passed through the Arndale Centre less than 30 minutes before it was blown up by the IRA.

I am about to tune into Jame's OB's show on LBC 97.3FM

I suggest you do the same and pour your heart out - just for the giggles.
 
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