British Pakistanis: Discussion Thread

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I have been a longstanding participant here and every week I get at least a few derogatory comments from Indian posters mostly, but also some from Pakistani ex-pats. Let's discuss and see if we can get to the root of the issues. I will tag some of the most regular posters who have referenced Brit Pakistanis and let them have the floor and see if we can come to some understanding of the issues.

@Rajdeep @Local.Dada @Hitman @cricketjoshila @Varun @Romali_rotti

Anyone else who wants to contribute feel free regardless of nationality.

 

[Rajdeep]

I respect you brother for tagging me but I am not posting in TP section these days. My entire focus is on T20 world cup, cricket and the politics surrounding it. Once that is done, I shall be back here.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Issues which could be discussed based on previous comments could be:

• Failure to integrate
• Lack of tolerance
• Overwhelming local culture

These are a few to get the topic started. Feel free to add more as needed.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I respect you brother for tagging me but I am not posting in TP section these days. My entire focus is on T20 world cup, cricket and the politics surrounding it. Once that is done, I shall be back here.

Oh dear. I hope Tommy hasn't ditched you already. I will welcome your insight when you are ready as being based in the UK you should have more insight than most!

 

[Bhaijaan]

I was not invited but i would like to say that @KingKhanWC bhai has always been my idol and favorite British Pakistani mainly because of his open mindedness despite being religiously devout, for his interest in variety of topics including sports, finances etc. and for his general jovial nature. These are the qualities i wish @DeadlyVenom bhai had but an unhealthy obsession with MILFs ruined that brother.

Secondly, i discovered Islamic rap because of British Pakistanis which almost changed my life and turned me into a muslim, until Sanatan revived in India under PM Modi.

Yes, we do hear a lot of concerning stories about British Pakistanis but they are also probably convenioejt targets for many playing darker games. Despite being to 7 European nations, i haven't been to England except the airports so i am not qualified to discuss in depth on this topic and for that reason i am out. Aadab.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I was not invited but i would like to say that @KingKhanWC bhai has always been my idol and favorite British Pakistani mainly because of his open mindedness despite being religiously devout, for his interest in variety of topics including sports, finances etc. and for his general jovial nature. These are the qualities i wish @DeadlyVenom bhai had but an unhealthy obsession with MILFs ruined that brother.

Secondly, i discovered Islamic rap because of British Pakistanis which almost changed my life and turned me into a muslim, until Sanatan revived in India under PM Modi.

Yes, we do hear a lot of concerning stories about British Pakistanis but they are also probably convenioejt targets for many playing darker games. Despite being to 7 European nations, i haven't been to England except the airports so i am not qualified to discuss in depth on this topic and for that reason i am out. Aadab.

Why have you not travelled the UK? This summer we have England v Pakistan at Edgbaston. Pop over, we have a hospitality lounge, drink , eat ,watch Pakistan get slaughtered, then a mixed grill in a Pakistani restaurant, followed by Shisha where we will find you a lovely wife to take back to India.

On topic, British Pakistanis like any other group have good or bad apples but overall its the most relevant community of people in British life. Mayor of London, Home Sec, hundreds of MP's or councillors across the countries too. Famous singers, actors and sportsman. Now its 3rd, 4th generation, most are well educated, well off and well travelled.

 

[Varun]

I have been a longstanding participant here and every week I get at least a few derogatory comments from Indian posters mostly, but also some from Pakistani ex-pats. Let's discuss and see if we can get to the root of the issues. I will tag some of the most regular posters who have referenced Brit Pakistanis and let them have the floor and see if we can come to some understanding of the issues.

@Rajdeep @Local.Dada @Hitman @cricketjoshila @Varun @Romali_rotti

Anyone else who wants to contribute feel free regardless of nationality.

British Pakistanis - all of them bar none - are amazing human beings and a credit to human society. There's absolutely no need for insecurity.

 

[KingKhanWC]

British Pakistanis - all of them bar none - are amazing human beings and a credit to human society. There's absolutely no need for insecurity.

Dont give up your day job for stand up.

You've never been to the UK so your interactions are based on this forum. For years you've been ranting about Brit Pakistanis. It really isnt their fault or anyone elses you're stuck in India. Have you considered Europe, visas are open to Moldova for Indians?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I was not invited but i would like to say that @KingKhanWC bhai has always been my idol and favorite British Pakistani mainly because of his open mindedness despite being religiously devout, for his interest in variety of topics including sports, finances etc. and for his general jovial nature. These are the qualities i wish @DeadlyVenom bhai had but an unhealthy obsession with MILFs ruined that brother.

Secondly, i discovered Islamic rap because of British Pakistanis which almost changed my life and turned me into a muslim, until Sanatan revived in India under PM Modi.

Yes, we do hear a lot of concerning stories about British Pakistanis but they are also probably convenioejt targets for many playing darker games. Despite being to 7 European nations, i haven't been to England except the airports so i am not qualified to discuss in depth on this topic and for that reason i am out. Aadab.

I don't recall you calling out British Pakistanis bro, that is the reason you weren't "invited". I consider you one of the best posters here due to your unfiltered devotion to Bharat, but not having been to the UK maybe your input here would be as an observer rather than insight. Most welcome nonetheless.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

British Pakistanis - all of them bar none - are amazing human beings and a credit to human society. There's absolutely no need for insecurity.

Why do you feel insecure if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Varun]

Dont give up your day job for stand up.

You've never been to the UK so your interactions are based on this forum. For years you've been ranting about Brit Pakistanis. It really isnt their fault or anyone elses you're stuck in India. Have you considered Europe, visas are open to Moldova for Indians?

Lol, if I needed to be anywhere, I would have been.

Continue chanting God Save the King. Cheers.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

British Pakistanis - all of them bar none - are amazing human beings and a credit to human society. There's absolutely no need for insecurity.

Thanks bro appreciate these kind words from a South Indian, a people we look up to and respect.

 

[Red-Indian]

Why have you not travelled the UK? This summer we have England v Pakistan at Edgbaston. Pop over, we have a hospitality lounge, drink , eat ,watch Pakistan get slaughtered, then a mixed grill in a Pakistani restaurant, followed by Shisha where we will find you a lovely wife to take back to India.

On topic, British Pakistanis like any other group have good or bad apples but overall its the most relevant community of people in British life. Mayor of London, Home Sec, hundreds of MP's or councillors across the countries too. Famous singers, actors and sportsman. Now its 3rd, 4th generation, most are well educated, well off and well travelled.

The first time I visited the UK I had the most astonishing experience
- The Immigration officer at Heathrow was a Sikh
- The cab service guy holding the placard with my name was a Muslim from the subcontinent - maybe from Kashmir at a guess
- The hotel receptionist was a Punjabi Muslim
- My shower wasn't working and Gujarati plumber (with the most incomprehensible Scouse accent) turned up to fix it

I was in a bit of daze for the whole day.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lol, if I needed to be anywhere, I would have been.

Continue chanting God Save the King. Cheers.

You're supposed to sing it. Chanting is what they did in Indiana jones and the temple of doom.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The first time I visited the UK I had the most astonishing experience
- The Immigration officer at Heathrow was a Sikh
- The cab service guy holding the placard with my name was a Muslim from the subcontinent - maybe from Kashmir at a guess
- The hotel receptionist was a Punjabi Muslim
- My shower wasn't working and Gujarati plumber (with the most incomprehensible Scouse accent) turned up to fix it

I was in a bit of daze for the whole day.

London is an international city these days, probably true for more than half a century now. Probably a topic which deserves it's own thread, but that's true for most western capitals.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The first time I visited the UK I had the most astonishing experience
- The Immigration officer at Heathrow was a Sikh
- The cab service guy holding the placard with my name was a Muslim from the subcontinent - maybe from Kashmir at a guess
- The hotel receptionist was a Punjabi Muslim
- My shower wasn't working and Gujarati plumber (with the most incomprehensible Scouse accent) turned up to fix it

I was in a bit of daze for the whole day.

Heathrow is mini Asia. I landed back a few days ago didnt speak to a single white Brit , got into my car and drove home.

The British Asian community going back to the 60's have achieved a lot. Hundreds of thousands came here poor , worked hard and have changed the future of their generations to come. Those Asians have helped changed the culture of Britain. The national dish of Britain is chicken tikka masala. Asian and Caribbean communities made Britain vibrant and colourful from their food, music, carnivals etc. Sadly now the new immigrants from India and Pakistan are here to leech off the country. There should be no more immigration from India, Pak and Bang now.

 

[Varun]

You're supposed to sing it. Chanting is what they did in Indiana jones and the temple of doom.

I'm sure you know what to do.

 

[Red-Indian]

London is an international city these days, probably true for more than half a century now. Probably a topic which deserves it's own thread, but that's true for most western capitals.

Yeah this was in 2004. I was pretty uninformed and while I'd travelled to 3-4 countries, I'd never experienced multi-culturalism to this extent.

Now I've seen a bit of the world. A couple of years ago, I was on a New York subway and I looked around the car and tried to estimate nationalities or rather countries of origin. I counted around 17 with a few ambiguities before I gave up.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I'm sure you know what to do.

There is no obligation to do so. Its basic education, knowing national anthems are sung.

Can you please post an audio of you chanting the BJP anthem? I'm sure it's entertaining.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

The first time I visited the UK I had the most astonishing experience
- The Immigration officer at Heathrow was a Sikh
- The cab service guy holding the placard with my name was a Muslim from the subcontinent - maybe from Kashmir at a guess
- The hotel receptionist was a Punjabi Muslim
- My shower wasn't working and Gujarati plumber (with the most incomprehensible Scouse accent) turned up to fix it

I was in a bit of daze for the whole day.

If you spend enough time with any one of them, they will all let you know how their community contributes to the UK but the other guys are all thieves and scammers.

 

[Red-Indian]

If you spend enough time with any one of them, they will all let you know how their community contributes to the UK but the other guys are all thieves and scammers.

Yeah I'd grown up on a lot of English culture. Starting with tons of Enid Blyton growing into Conan Doyle, Agatha Christie, Wodehouse. The colonial hangover education system meant all of our English syllabus were Wordsworth, Burns and Shakespeare in the original. The England I had in my mind was very different from the London I encountered.

Immigrants over the last 100 years are almost always a net positive to the country that gets them...yes even illegal immigrants. The very fact that they're willing to immigrate means the receiving country pretty much gets the most daring, enterprising, determined folk from the sending country.

There are any number of economic studies that prove the gain. Unfortunately, the worst opponents of new immigrants are not natives but often the previous generation who want to pull the drawbridge up behind them.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Heathrow is mini Asia. I landed back a few days ago didnt speak to a single white Brit , got into my car and drove home.

The British Asian community going back to the 60's have achieved a lot. Hundreds of thousands came here poor , worked hard and have changed the future of their generations to come. Those Asians have helped changed the culture of Britain. The national dish of Britain is chicken tikka masala. Asian and Caribbean communities made Britain vibrant and colourful from their food, music, carnivals etc. Sadly now the new immigrants from India and Pakistan are here to leech off the country. There should be no more immigration from India, Pak and Bang now.

nah man. Honestly so many good decent people come over. Particularly Indians who are probably the most highly skilled people. When I see an Indian name on a team that I'm due to work with I usually breathe a sigh of relief because they are going to give a 110%. Skilled Pakistani's aren't too far behind either. I've not encountered too many Bangladeshis in tech/finance/engineering sectors though but thats perhaps because I don't do much London based work.

Unfortunately there are scammers but we can't write off whole communities because of the actions of some. Many of the semi-legal ways of migrating have been cut off (spouse visas are difficult, working visas have stricter criteria), so the people who probably shouldn't have been here but managed to find a loophole are now resorting to student visa scams or asylum scams to get in.

 

[KingKhanWC]

nah man. Honestly so many good decent people come over. Particularly Indians who are probably the most highly skilled people. When I see an Indian name on a team that I'm due to work with I usually breathe a sigh of relief because they are going to give a 110%. Skilled Pakistani's aren't too far behind either. I've not encountered too many Bangladeshis in tech/finance/engineering sectors though but thats perhaps because I don't do much London based work.

Unfortunately there are scammers but we can't write off whole communities because of the actions of some. Many of the semi-legal ways of migrating have been cut off (spouse visas are difficult, working visas have stricter criteria), so the people who probably shouldn't have been here but managed to find a loophole are now resorting to student visa scams or asylum scams to get in.

Sure in some areas and certain industries as you've experienced it may be of a personal benefit to you. But I think its a fair generalisation, as Ive spoken to many in various sectors, they claim to have degrees but seem to be thick a an English willow plank. A Uni degree only means you have passed exams, essays in a certain subject, it doesnt mean one is intelligent. Most are now here with fake degrees, lack of social skills, extreme hindus.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Maybe some of those I tagged are having a nap or on holiday. I will be awaiting their input with interest as they usually have quite the opinion on British Pakistanis, but very nice to hear from @Red-Indian and @Bhaijaan nonetheless. Thank you for your input guys.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Seen @Romali_rotti have another sly dig at Britstanis in another thread, and I haven't even read through most of the stuff posted today.

I wonder why these posters are so vocal in unrelated threads but when I make one where they can actually thrash out the issues, they go silent.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Seen @Romali_rotti have another sly dig at Britstanis in another thread, and I haven't even read through most of the stuff posted today.

I wonder why these posters are so vocal in unrelated threads but when I make one where they can actually thrash out the issues, they go silent.

Cap,

Britstanis I admire for their patriotism towards Pakistan, showing all loyalty and support from their comfortable homes in the UK, behind their keyboards, far far away from the mess in Pakistan.

Now what I don't like:

 

[Boyka]

These guys get their UK news from Elon Musk, Rupert Lowe et al. Some kind of weird alignment with right wing politics. Lazy, misinformed, and often targeted towards Muslims.

Low effort garbage. Unserious people

 

[aboveandbeyond]

British Pakistanis in General can be very emotional. The most alarming thing ive noticed they turn on their own communities who are different to each other.

Prime example are punjabs and Pashtoons. Very Ego driven people, with poor attitudes and a sense of pride.

I guess this stems from back home in Pakistan where this is the norm amongst these people.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Cap,

Britstanis I admire for their patriotism towards Pakistan, showing all loyalty and support from their comfortable homes in the UK, behind their keyboards, far far away from the mess in Pakistan.

Now what I don't like:

Well done rotti bro, most Brits aren't daring to mention Pakistani grooming gangs post the Epstein Files release, not when even the British royal family and indeed many western dignitaries around the world have been revealed to be part of the biggest grooming gang in the world.

 

[Technics 1210]

If British Pakistanis respond to wannabe cult Brits or cult student visa violaters or simply the cult on the run, then there's no point of this thread.

 

[sweep_shot]

Issues which could be discussed based on previous comments could be:

• Failure to integrate
• Lack of tolerance
• Overwhelming local culture

These are a few to get the topic started. Feel free to add more as needed.

I think it is more worthwhile to discuss these with native Brits (Caucasian Englishmen) than the bhakts.

Bhakts have no stake here even though they act like they do.

 

[ghalib kichlu]

British Pakistanis in General can be very emotional. The most alarming thing ive noticed they turn on their own communities who are different to each other.

Prime example are punjabs and Pashtoons. Very Ego driven people, with poor attitudes and a sense of pride.

I guess this stems from back home in Pakistan where this is the norm amongst these people.

Wannabe gangsters really , part of these futile tribes that want to inflict stupid losses on one another
A lot of the time , the leaders of the gangs are state agents or people realised from prison after having their sentences commuted

 

[Romali_rotti]

Well done rotti bro, most Brits aren't daring to mention Pakistani grooming gangs post the Epstein Files release, not when even the British royal family and indeed many western dignitaries around the world have been revealed to be part of the biggest grooming gang in the world.

Well that makes it a good then.

Phew grooming gangs can continue their good work without any scrutiny, thanks to Epstein and British Royal families

 

[rickroll]

I will bite from a Pakistani American POV and be very honest albeit ruffling some feathers here.

Positives

1. Truly well established community with rich history.
2. Strong political representation relative to other global Pakistani communities.
3. Maintaining the unique culture (this is a positive to a certain degree).
4. Hard working.

Negatives

1. Lack of education.
2. Higher percentage of radicalization.
3. More regressive thinking when it comes to women's education/career.
4. Not a big enough upward economic mobility towards higher end careers (lack of education playing a factor here).
5. Pointless lower class hype talk of "jazba this, jazba that".
6. Justifying "success" as some corner shop business owner without education saying British Pakistanis are true "entrepreneurs" (no, they are just uneducated and cannot have upward mobility of higher end entrepreneurship, this is the truth).
7. General cringe lower class behavior and not as refined as Pakistani Americans.
8. Taking pride in mundane things like winning the genetic lottery of being born in the UK probably because they have nothing else big to show for (TBH this is something I see a lot here in PP forums - "I'm Brit this, Brit that" and it is such low class uneducated MAGA type cringe for many of us US born Pakistani Americans). This is big guys, it really shows you in a pathetic light.

 

[rpant_gabba]

I will bite from a Pakistani American POV and be very honest albeit ruffling some feathers here.

Positives

1. Truly well established community with rich history.
2. Strong political representation relative to other global Pakistani communities.
3. Maintaining the unique culture (this is a positive to a certain degree).
4. Hard working.

Negatives

1. Lack of education.
2. Higher percentage of radicalization.
3. More regressive thinking when it comes to women's education/career.
4. Not a big enough upward economic mobility towards higher end careers (lack of education playing a factor here).
5. Pointless lower class hype talk of "jazba this, jazba that".
6. Justifying "success" as some corner shop business owner without education saying British Pakistanis are true "entrepreneurs" (no, they are just uneducated and cannot have upward mobility of higher end entrepreneurship, this is the truth).
7. General cringe lower class behavior and not as refined as Pakistani Americans.
8. Taking pride in mundane things like winning the genetic lottery of being born in the UK probably because they have nothing else big to show for (TBH this is something I see a lot here in PP forums - "I'm Brit this, Brit that" and it is such low class uneducated MAGA type cringe for many of us US born Pakistani Americans). This is big guys, it really shows you in a pathetic light.

Damn Bro. Harsh. Truth, but harsh. I love it.

 

[Hitman]

One thing I'll have to give it to them, they are the champions at lip service. They'll liberate Kashmir, Palestine, and everything else. No one can compete with them in that regard. And they change their loyalty from British to Pakistanis like the UK weather. You call out the village Pakistani in them, they will immediately become British.​

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

I will bite from a Pakistani American POV and be very honest albeit ruffling some feathers here.

Positives

1. Truly well established community with rich history.
2. Strong political representation relative to other global Pakistani communities.
3. Maintaining the unique culture (this is a positive to a certain degree).
4. Hard working.

Negatives

1. Lack of education.
2. Higher percentage of radicalization.
3. More regressive thinking when it comes to women's education/career.
4. Not a big enough upward economic mobility towards higher end careers (lack of education playing a factor here).
5. Pointless lower class hype talk of "jazba this, jazba that".
6. Justifying "success" as some corner shop business owner without education saying British Pakistanis are true "entrepreneurs" (no, they are just uneducated and cannot have upward mobility of higher end entrepreneurship, this is the truth).
7. General cringe lower class behavior and not as refined as Pakistani Americans.
8. Taking pride in mundane things like winning the genetic lottery of being born in the UK probably because they have nothing else big to show for (TBH this is something I see a lot here in PP forums - "I'm Brit this, Brit that" and it is such low class uneducated MAGA type cringe for many of us US born Pakistani Americans). This is big guys, it really shows you in a pathetic light.

Hit the hammer right on the head here. We have discussed this before and while we have some excellent brothers from Britain like @topspin @Rana @emranabbas but a significant minority - notice I still say minority only - say about 30-35% of British Pakistanis tend to exhibit one or more of these traits that you mention. @KingKhanWC @Cpt. Rishwat @Bewal Express all have expressed some shocking views in the past no offence. There is a need for introspection as this is one community among the global Pak community outside of Pak that really brings down Pak.

American Pakistanis in comparison are far more liberal, well integrated, well to do and among the top ethnicities in the US.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Damn Bro. Harsh. Truth, but harsh. I love it.

It's not harsh at all. British Pakistanis did tend to come from more working class and lesser educated backgrounds. They tend to be a bit more rough and ready as a result. Also less nerdy and better suited to sports and athletic pursuits, so you accept the good along with the bad. A Bollywood hero would probably look more like a Pakistani than an Indian.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

One thing I'll have to give it to them, they are the champions at lip service. They'll liberate Kashmir, Palestine, and everything else. No one can compete with them in that regard. And they change their loyalty from British to Pakistanis like the UK weather. You call out the village Pakistani in them, they will immediately become British. You discuss anything political or anything with them regarding Pakistan, they will open their lungi and show their village Pakistani in them.​

How is that so different to India? You don't have villages in India? It looks like Switzerland right?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Well that makes it a good then.

Phew grooming gangs can continue their good work without any scrutiny, thanks to Epstein and British Royal families

Grooming gangs are still coming under scrutiny, and rightly so. But for some reason you don't wish to condemn the grooming gangs of your western masters. Those aren't just the dregs of society either, but the very elite whom you bow down to.

 

[rpant_gabba]

It's not harsh at all. British Pakistanis did tend to come from more working class and lesser educated backgrounds. They tend to be a bit more rough and ready as a result. Also less nerdy and better suited to sports and athletic pursuits, so you accept the good along with the bad. A Bollywood hero would probably look more like a Pakistani than an Indian.

Awsome cap!

 

[jaspa888]

Hit the hammer right on the head here. We have discussed this before and while we have some excellent brothers from Britain like @topspin @Rana @emranabbas but a significant minority - notice I still say minority only - say about 30-35% of British Pakistanis tend to exhibit one or more of these traits that you mention. @KingKhanWC @Cpt. Rishwat @Bewal Express all have expressed some shocking views in the past no offence. There is a need for introspection as this is one community among the global Pak community outside of Pak that really brings down Pak.

American Pakistanis in comparison are far more liberal, well integrated, well to do and among the top ethnicities in the US.

You are correct with your last sentence. The vast majority of the original PK migrants to the US (60s-70s) were educated, and well-versed in English, meaning they could seamlessly integrate into society and the workplace. They educated their kids too, meaning many are in high profile positions.

Conversely, the vast majority of the original PK migrants to the UK during the same period were uneducated workers who came over for work in textile mills and factories. Unfortunately, most f them failed to take advantage of the UK education system for their kids.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Im

Cap,

Britstanis I admire for their patriotism towards Pakistan, showing all loyalty and support from their comfortable homes in the UK, behind their keyboards, far far away from the mess in Pakistan.

Now what I don't like:

I'm starting to come to the belief that there has been institutional honeypotting relating to this.

Keir Starmer allowed this to happen and it proliferated while he was in charge of CPS and it was known.



These animals are reading Quran while committing the crimes ?!. That's just outlandish and Reform embellishment

 

[SpiritOf1903]

I mean what is this

It's not harsh at all. British Pakistanis did tend to come from more working class and lesser educated backgrounds. They tend to be a bit more rough and ready as a result. Also less nerdy and better suited to sports and athletic pursuits, so you accept the good along with the bad. A Bollywood hero would probably look more like a Pakistani than an Indian.

 

[JaDed]

You might get a first Pakistani origin PM of Uk soon.. interesting times. The musical chairs of UK pM may long continue

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

One thing I'll have to give it to them, they are the champions at lip service. They'll liberate Kashmir, Palestine, and everything else. No one can compete with them in that regard. And they change their loyalty from British to Pakistanis like the UK weather. You call out the village Pakistani in them, they will immediately become British.​

By the way, not sure what you mean by changing loyalty from British to Pakistani and vice versa. Sometimes we get criticised for not integrating, then other times we get criticised for being loyal to Britain. Which one is it?

 

[Local.Dada]

By the way, not sure what you mean by changing loyalty from British to Pakistani and vice versa. Sometimes we get criticised for not integrating, then other times we get criticised for being loyal to Britain. Which one is it?

Beyond your vulgar insults why not give a considered response?

Exactly for this hypocrisy to shift sides whenever convenient.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

You might get a first Pakistani origin PM of Uk soon.. interesting times. The musical chairs of UK pM may long continue

What an absolute sellout she is. She seems very dense. At least the Conservative from Dewsbury had a bit of principle

 

[Romali_rotti]

Grooming gangs are still coming under scrutiny, and rightly so. But for some reason you don't wish to condemn the grooming gangs of your western masters. Those aren't just the dregs of society either, but the very elite whom you bow down to.

I condemn any groomer that harms any children. Doesn't matter of ethnicity.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

I condemn any groomer that harms any children. Doesn't matter of ethnicity.

RIngleaders of one of the biggest gangs, in Huddersfield, were martial sikhs

 

[rickroll]

I feel the usual response that "British Pakistanis did tend to come from working class and less educated backgrounds" alluding to the original immigrants is such a copout response. Y'all had what 3 or 4 generations in the UK now, such a huge head start against Pakistani Americans. To say my great great grandfather was a working class under privileged immigrant to the UK and that is why many of my current generational peers lack education and are "rough around the edges" is an absolute copout. Unlike us Americans y'all have free healthcare and much better social benefits, so what were y'all doing for 4 generations to not have good education?

I believe the defect is systemic in the British Pakistani culture that is somehow inhibiting education and upward socioeconomic mobility.

We (Pakistani Americans) are not just nerds (saying this as a negative connotation is such a 2000s thing to say). Even among career minded folks we represent entrepreneurs of tech startups, investment bankers, private equity, hedge fund, VC etc. I would say we have also branched out more in media.

A cursory AI result when searching for Pakistani American athletes. You will see a similar result for British Pakistanis as well. So its not like Pakistani Americans are lagging behind in other fields and are only academically/financially excelling. Mind you this absolute number comparison is on top of our much lower population and much lower representation (0.187% of US population versus 2.7% of UK population).

 

[ghalib kichlu]

I feel the usual response that "British Pakistanis did tend to come from working class and less educated backgrounds" alluding to the original immigrants is such a copout response. Y'all had what 3 or 4 generations in the UK now, such a huge head start against Pakistani Americans. To say my great great grandfather was a working class under privileged immigrant to the UK and that is why many of my current generational peers lack education and are "rough around the edges" is an absolute copout. Unlike us Americans y'all have free healthcare and much better social benefits, so what were y'all doing for 4 generations to not have good education?

I believe the defect is systemic in the British Pakistani culture that is somehow inhibiting education and upward socioeconomic mobility.

We (Pakistani Americans) are not just nerds (saying this as a negative connotation is such a 2000s thing to say). Even among career minded folks we represent entrepreneurs of tech startups, investment bankers, private equity, hedge fund, VC etc. I would say we have also branched out more in media.

A cursory AI result when searching for Pakistani American athletes. You will see a similar result for British Pakistanis as well. So its not like Pakistani Americans are lagging behind in other fields and are only academically/financially excelling. Mind you this absolute number comparison is on top of our much lower population and much lower representation (0.187% of US population versus 2.7% of UK population).



View attachment 161534

The billionaire Hindus in the US who fund the bjp seem to have done a lot better and worked a lot harder than the Pakistani Americans , they seem to have done a lot more for the nation they emigrated from too
The only successful Pakistani you hear of in America other than Apu is shahid khan and Tony khan, and they are for more like British Pakistanis in their habits, hobbies and mannerism

 

[corleone]

Cannot fathom the hatred and negativity towards British Pakistanis in the comments above.

British Pakistanis have enjoyed success in every field - health sciences, sport, politics, business, entertainment etc

BPs own a considerable amount of property and businesses (GP/dental practices, solicitor, accountancy firms, offices etc) in cities like London, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle, Leeds. I personally know brothers that have multimillion pound property portfolios.

We produce world level sportsmen like Amir Khan, Adil Rashid (add Adam Azim and Hamza Sheeraz to that list soon). There's several high profile politicians such as Sadiq Khan (mayor of London), Sajid Javed etc.

I'm a pharmacist myself and have many family and friends that are doctors, dentists, nurses etc. Pursuing success in your career has always been the #1 goal.

There's also Ocar winning actor Riz Ahmed and famous artists like Zayn Malik. I don't know of any other country where Pakistanis have enjoyed such success.


I don't buy the grooming gang arguments. Yes there are British Pakistani grooming gangs, but they're no more represented than British White or Black grooming gangs. I don't know anyone who thinks it's acceptable to be involved in these activities.

 

[rickroll]

The billionaire Hindus in the US who fund the bjp seem to have done a lot better and worked a lot harder than the Pakistani Americans , they seem to have done a lot more for the nation they emigrated from too
The only successful Pakistani you hear of in America other than Apu is shahid khan and Tony khan, and they are for more like British Pakistanis in their habits, hobbies and mannerism

All fair points so let's create a thread comparing Indian Americans and Pakistani Americans and analyze it there. But this thread is soliciting opinions about British Pakistanis. I'm comparing and contrasting British Pakistanis relative to my most knowledgeable community - Pakistani Americans.

 

[rickroll]

Cannot fathom the hatred and negativity towards British Pakistanis in the comments above.

British Pakistanis have enjoyed success in every field - health sciences, sport, politics, business, entertainment etc

BPs own a considerable amount of property and businesses (GP/dental practices, solicitor, accountancy firms, offices etc) in cities like London, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle, Leeds. I personally know brothers that have multimillion pound property portfolios.

We produce world level sportsmen like Amir Khan, Adil Rashid (add Adam Azim and Hamza Sheeraz to that list soon). There's several high profile politicians such as Sadiq Khan (mayor of London), Sajid Javed etc.

I'm a pharmacist myself and have many family and friends that are doctors, dentists, nurses etc. Pursuing success in your career has always been the #1 goal.

There's also Ocar winning actor Riz Ahmed and famous artists like Zayn Malik. I don't know of any other country where Pakistanis have enjoyed such success.


I don't buy the grooming gang arguments. Yes there are British Pakistani grooming gangs, but they're no more represented than British White or Black grooming gangs. I don't know anyone who thinks it's acceptable to be involved in these activities.

There is no hatred and we are only having an objective data driven discussion, no hate agenda here. I'm sure there are many good people among British Pakistanis too. But the question about socio economic progress (or lack of) remains at large.

You see, statements like "British Pakistanis have success in every field", "I know multimillion property owners" etc are just anecdotal like me saying "My cousin's neighbor, a Pakistani American bats better than Babar Azam so all Pakistani Americans are excellent batsmen" -- these are individual anecdotal observations extrapolated into opinions and are not necessarily accurate representation of a population group at large. What matters is data and data does not lie.

Here is the data - 54%-59% of Pakistani Americans hold bachelors or advanced degree while only 18% of British Pakistanis do. I can go into similar HDI metrics and you will see British Pakistanis lagging in most. Mind you this is despite the following disadvantages that Pakistani Americans have ...

1. Pakistani Americans are at most 2nd generation immigrants while British Pakistanis are 4th generation by now.
2. Pakistani Americans are in a system without health insurance which means it is an added expense for us. We get college education despite this. British Pakistanis enjoy the much better social benefits that the UK system in general has and still languish.
3. Pakistani Americans do not wield the level of political representation that British Pakistanis do, and the resulting hard+soft power in shaping policy changes for community development. We have still developed more as a community than y'all have and treat our women better than y'all do. You will seldom see BS like honor killings as is rampant among British Pakistanis.

NONE OF THIS IS HATRED. If you take it personally and go into victim mode then that is on you. One of the first steps in improving something is acknowledging the negative status quo which I rarely see happen among the British Pakistani community. It is always a case of denial or some mental gymnastics like "we are sports people and they are nerds", "my great grandparents came to UK in 1940s as poor people hence we are not educated" etc etc.

 

[corleone]

Please read

There is no hatred and we are only having an objective data driven discussion, no hate agenda here. I'm sure there are many good people among British Pakistanis too. But the question about socio economic progress (or lack of) remains at large.

You see, statements like "British Pakistanis have success in every field", "I know multimillion property owners" etc are just anecdotal like me saying "My cousin's neighbor, a Pakistani American bats better than Babar Azam so all Pakistani Americans are excellent batsmen" -- these are individual anecdotal observations extrapolated into opinions and are not necessarily accurate representation of a population group at large. What matters is data and data does not lie.

Here is the data - 54%-59% of Pakistani Americans hold bachelors or advanced degree while only 18% of British Pakistanis do. I can go into similar HDI metrics and you will see British Pakistanis lagging in most. Mind you this is despite the following disadvantages that Pakistani Americans have ...

1. Pakistani Americans are at most 2nd generation immigrants while British Pakistanis are 4th generation by now.
2. Pakistani Americans are in a system without health insurance which means it is an added expense for us. We get college education despite this. British Pakistanis enjoy the much better social benefits that the UK system in general has and still languish.
3. Pakistani Americans do not wield the level of political representation that British Pakistanis do, and the resulting hard+soft power in shaping policy changes for community development. We have still developed more as a community than y'all have and treat our women better than y'all do. You will seldom see BS like honor killings as is rampant among British Pakistanis.

NONE OF THIS IS HATRED. If you take it personally and go into victim mode then that is on you. One of the first steps in improving something is acknowledging the negative status quo which I rarely see happen among the British Pakistani community. It is always a case of denial or some mental gymnastics like "we are sports people and they are nerds", "my great grandparents came to UK in 1940s as poor people hence we are not educated"

Please read my post again. It is not just my observation but a fact that British Pakistanis own significant real estate in major cities in the UK. I'm not one for quoting Google searches, however feel free to browse for confirmation.

Perhaps many British Pakistanis don't go into higher education compared to US Pakistanis, or British Indians, but that's not necessarily the only metric for success. University degrees don't teach business acumen or how to live a financially comfortable life. Besides, professions like doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants don't see serious money for a number of years anyway.

Ultimately, it depends on how we measure success, but as a man anywhere in the world first and foremost you're responsible for putting food on the table for your family and chasing career paths can be counterproductive to that.

I don't think the statistics are significant enough to suggest a British Pakistani problem of honour killing or mistreating women. Perhaps you can provide data that suggests there is a significant problem Vs Pakistanis from other parts of the world?

Again, sweeping statements like "British Pakistanis are 4th generation by now" are simply untrue. Most Pakistanis in the UK are from Mirpur in Kashmir and surrounding areas. At the earliest they migrated to the UK due to the building of Mangla Dam in the mid 60s. Therefore most British Pakistanis are 2nd or 3rd generation.

 

[rickroll]

Please read


Please read my post again. It is not just my observation but a fact that British Pakistanis own significant real estate in major cities in the UK. I'm not one for quoting Google searches, however feel free to browse for confirmation.

Perhaps many British Pakistanis don't go into higher education compared to US Pakistanis, or British Indians, but that's not necessarily the only metric for success. University degrees don't teach business acumen or how to live a financially comfortable life. Besides, professions like doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants don't see serious money for a number of years anyway.

Ultimately, it depends on how we measure success, but as a man anywhere in the world first and foremost you're responsible for putting food on the table for your family and chasing career paths can be counterproductive to that.

I don't think the statistics are significant enough to suggest a British Pakistani problem of honour killing or mistreating women. Perhaps you can provide data that suggests there is a significant problem Vs Pakistanis from other parts of the world?

Again, sweeping statements like "British Pakistanis are 4th generation by now" are simply untrue. Most Pakistanis in the UK are from Mirpur in Kashmir and surrounding areas. At the earliest they migrated to the UK due to the building of Mangla Dam in the mid 60s. Therefore most British Pakistanis are 2nd or 3rd generation.

Perhaps many British Pakistanis don't go into higher education compared to US Pakistanis, or British Indians, but that's not necessarily the only metric for success. University degrees don't teach business acumen or how to live a financially comfortable life. Besides, professions like doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants don't see serious money for a number of years anyway. -- Education along with things like infant mortality, women in workforce is one of the cornerstone metrics for assessing any population group. Saying college education (which has been near basic education level until this AI disruption) is not the measure of success for a population is extreme coping and pretty much reinforces my earlier point about typical British Pakistani reactions when presented with compelling facts.

Please read my post again. It is not just my observation but a fact that British Pakistanis own significant real estate in major cities in the UK. I'm not one for quoting Google searches, however feel free to browse for confirmation. -- Understand that when you make a claim then the burden of proof to back your own claim is on you and not others. I do not intend to spend my time cycles for any and every claim people can make here. If you are claiming something contrarian to someone then you have to back it up. Regardless of this, when majority of a community can only claim wealth through old world economies like agriculture or land ownership (nothing wrong with those) then the inference is that the population group does not have the knowledge wealth to excel in higher acuity fields. Lacking knowledge wealth as a result of lack of education means that population group is in the lower rungs of socio-economic ladder.

Again, sweeping statements like "British Pakistanis are 4th generation by now" are simply untrue. Most Pakistanis in the UK are from Mirpur in Kashmir and surrounding areas. At the earliest they migrated to the UK due to the building of Mangla Dam in the mid 60s. Therefore most British Pakistanis are 2nd or 3rd generation. -- This is not sweeping generalization but it is a fact. The earliest adult British Pakistanis would now be in 4th generation and the earliest adult Pakistani Americans would now be 2nd generation. If you take a composite median then British Pakistanis would be around 3rd generation and Pakistani Americans would only be in the 1st. Proof for this is below for your reference.

British Pakistanis have a 2 generation head start in a country with much better social benefits and yet are abysmal in all social progress indicators relative to Pakistani Americans.

See the data below. These are facts and not some hate message. Own your deficiency as a community lest you will never improve.



Proof for what Gen median British Pakistanis and Pakistani Americans are:



Links from which this data was synthesized

1. https://www.dawn.com/news/732915/pakistanis-are-second-fastest-growing-race-in-us-says-report#:~:text=Faiza Mirza Published July 9,the basis of employer's sponsorship.
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Americans#:~:text=In 2019, there were an,8% of South Asian Americans.
3. https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol48/10/48-10.pdf
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Americans#:~:text=In 2019, there were an,8% of South Asian Americans.
5. https://www.riazhaq.com/2021/06/us-census-pakistani-americans-are-young.html#:~:text=1.,the latest available census data.
6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_diaspora#:~:text=Table_title: Pakistani diaspora Table_content: header: | Total,Oman | : 250,092 (2020 estimate) |
7. https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/fact-sheet/asian-americans-pakistanis-in-the-u-s/#:~:text=by origin groups-,Population,people over the same period.
8. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/RAD-Pakistan.pdf

 

[rickroll]

Perhaps many British Pakistanis don't go into higher education compared to US Pakistanis, or British Indians, but that's not necessarily the only metric for success. University degrees don't teach business acumen or how to live a financially comfortable life. Besides, professions like doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants don't see serious money for a number of years anyway. -- Education along with things like infant mortality, women in workforce is one of the cornerstone metrics for assessing any population group. Saying college education (which has been near basic education level until this AI disruption) is not the measure of success for a population is extreme coping and pretty much reinforces my earlier point about typical British Pakistani reactions when presented with compelling facts.

Please read my post again. It is not just my observation but a fact that British Pakistanis own significant real estate in major cities in the UK. I'm not one for quoting Google searches, however feel free to browse for confirmation. -- Understand that when you make a claim then the burden of proof to back your own claim is on you and not others. I do not intend to spend my time cycles for any and every claim people can make here. If you are claiming something contrarian to someone then you have to back it up. Regardless of this, when majority of a community can only claim wealth through old world economies like agriculture or land ownership (nothing wrong with those) then the inference is that the population group does not have the knowledge wealth to excel in higher acuity fields. Lacking knowledge wealth as a result of lack of education means that population group is in the lower rungs of socio-economic ladder.

Again, sweeping statements like "British Pakistanis are 4th generation by now" are simply untrue. Most Pakistanis in the UK are from Mirpur in Kashmir and surrounding areas. At the earliest they migrated to the UK due to the building of Mangla Dam in the mid 60s. Therefore most British Pakistanis are 2nd or 3rd generation. -- This is not sweeping generalization but it is a fact. The earliest adult British Pakistanis would now be in 4th generation and the earliest adult Pakistani Americans would now be 2nd generation. If you take a composite median then British Pakistanis would be around 3rd generation and Pakistani Americans would only be in the 1st. Proof for this is below for your reference.

British Pakistanis have a 2 generation head start in a country with much better social benefits and yet are abysmal in all social progress indicators relative to Pakistani Americans.

See the data below. These are facts and not some hate message. Own your deficiency as a community lest you will never improve.

View attachment 161541

Proof for what Gen median British Pakistanis and Pakistani Americans are:

View attachment 161538

Links from which this data was synthesized

1. https://www.dawn.com/news/732915/pakistanis-are-second-fastest-growing-race-in-us-says-report#:~:text=Faiza Mirza Published July 9,the basis of employer's sponsorship.
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Americans#:~:text=In 2019, there were an,8% of South Asian Americans.
3. https://www.demographic-research.org/volumes/vol48/10/48-10.pdf
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_Americans#:~:text=In 2019, there were an,8% of South Asian Americans.
5. https://www.riazhaq.com/2021/06/us-census-pakistani-americans-are-young.html#:~:text=1.,the latest available census data.
6. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistani_diaspora#:~:text=Table_title: Pakistani diaspora Table_content: header: | Total,Oman | : 250,092 (2020 estimate) |
7. https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/fact-sheet/asian-americans-pakistanis-in-the-u-s/#:~:text=by origin groups-,Population,people over the same period.
8. https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/RAD-Pakistan.pdf

I pasted wrong data in the wrong cells in the table. Here is the correct version.

 

[rickroll]

To all the British Pakistanis reading this, think about it logically and please do not take it personally. I'm sure many of you are good hearted people but as a community you are much farther behind Pakistani Americans.

You had a head start of 2 generations in UK compared to us in the US. You are in a country with more social benefits like free healthcare compared to near nothing that we have. Despite this, look at all of the comparative metrics below. Ask yourself - what happened and how did we fall behind despite 2 generational head start in a land of opportunity.

If all you do is deny obvious facts or cope with empty statements like "we have more jazba, you guys are nerds ..", or unnecessarily get defensive just to point score in a forum then you are simply contributing to exacerbate your community's decline.

I'm second gen Pakistani American and every friend or family member in my circle feels like we have to grit our teeth and put up with the cringe any time we have to interact with British Pakistani extended family (NO it is not us looking down on you but just noticing the difference). I say grit our teeth and cringe because even when we offer our help all they (extended family) do is stupid stuff to save face for non-existent pride. Almost every US born Pakistani American feels this when interacting with y'all despite our efforts to help and we are cringing with pity at y'all.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I condemn any groomer that harms any children. Doesn't matter of ethnicity.

Only when you are cornered. You jumped on the white Brit bandwagon to post the video of Pakistani grooming gangs which the media has been peddling for over a decade, but where have you been hiding now that the British whites (including their royal family) have been exposed as part of the biggest grooming gang of all? Where are your posts which raise alarm over the western culture at the heart of this sickening exploitation?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

To all the British Pakistanis reading this, think about it logically and please do not take it personally. I'm sure many of you are good hearted people but as a community you are much farther behind Pakistani Americans.

You had a head start of 2 generations in UK compared to us in the US. You are in a country with more social benefits like free healthcare compared to near nothing that we have. Despite this, look at all of the comparative metrics below. Ask yourself - what happened and how did we fall behind despite 2 generational head start in a land of opportunity.

If all you do is deny obvious facts or cope with empty statements like "we have more jazba, you guys are nerds ..", or unnecessarily get defensive just to point score in a forum then you are simply contributing to exacerbate your community's decline.

I'm second gen Pakistani American and every friend or family member in my circle feels like we have to grit our teeth and put up with the cringe any time we have to interact with British Pakistani extended family (NO it is not us looking down on you but just noticing the difference). I say grit our teeth and cringe because even when we offer our help all they (extended family) do is stupid stuff to save face for non-existent pride. Almost every US born Pakistani American feels this when interacting with y'all despite our efforts to help and we are cringing with pity at y'all.


View attachment 161543

I don't really have any issue with your assertions that American Pakistanis are more successful financially, the consensus seems to be that generally only the highly educated Pakistanis end up in the USA, whereas British Pakistanis arrived mostly from rural and less educated backgrounds in the early 50's, from Punjab following partition, then again in the 70's (I think) from Kashmir following the Mangla Dam construction which displaced hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris from Mirpur.

People from rural backgrounds tend to be more religious and this affects their attitude to education in a western country where there is no segregation these days. You will see similar attitudes from Afghan refugees who are also usually conservative. That would explain why they have been slower to take advantage of the high standard of education available, although I have seen this changing a lot in the last couple of decades. From what I have heard from relatives who live in the US, the American Pakistanis tend to assimilate into the American culture and don't really have much of a Pakistani culture as such.

As far as the nerds and sportsmen comment, I would say don't take it personally. It wasn't really aimed at American Pakistanis as such, more the desis in the US in general. We watch a lot of US shows and movies over here, and that is the impression we get.

 

[sweep_shot]

Please read


Please read my post again. It is not just my observation but a fact that British Pakistanis own significant real estate in major cities in the UK. I'm not one for quoting Google searches, however feel free to browse for confirmation.

Perhaps many British Pakistanis don't go into higher education compared to US Pakistanis, or British Indians, but that's not necessarily the only metric for success. University degrees don't teach business acumen or how to live a financially comfortable life. Besides, professions like doctors, lawyers, dentists, accountants don't see serious money for a number of years anyway.

Ultimately, it depends on how we measure success, but as a man anywhere in the world first and foremost you're responsible for putting food on the table for your family and chasing career paths can be counterproductive to that.

I don't think the statistics are significant enough to suggest a British Pakistani problem of honour killing or mistreating women. Perhaps you can provide data that suggests there is a significant problem Vs Pakistanis from other parts of the world?

Again, sweeping statements like "British Pakistanis are 4th generation by now" are simply untrue. Most Pakistanis in the UK are from Mirpur in Kashmir and surrounding areas. At the earliest they migrated to the UK due to the building of Mangla Dam in the mid 60s. Therefore most British Pakistanis are 2nd or 3rd generation.

Top post.

You have just demolished some of the misinformed/ignorant arguments.

 

[sweep_shot]

As far as the nerds and sportsmen comment, I would say don't take it personally. It wasn't really aimed at American Pakistanis as such, more the desis in the US in general. We watch a lot of US shows and movies over here, and that is the impression we get.

This is true actually.

American desis are generally not street smart like the European desis. This is why European desis often become top atheletes like Hamza Choudhary, Amir Khan etc.

American desis are mostly good at doing regular corporate 9-5 jobs. They have a safety-first approach to life like Misbah or Alaistar Cook.

 

[corleone]

To all the British Pakistanis reading this, think about it logically and please do not take it personally. I'm sure many of you are good hearted people but as a community you are much farther behind Pakistani Americans.

You had a head start of 2 generations in UK compared to us in the US. You are in a country with more social benefits like free healthcare compared to near nothing that we have. Despite this, look at all of the comparative metrics below. Ask yourself - what happened and how did we fall behind despite 2 generational head start in a land of opportunity.

If all you do is deny obvious facts or cope with empty statements like "we have more jazba, you guys are nerds ..", or unnecessarily get defensive just to point score in a forum then you are simply contributing to exacerbate your community's decline.

I'm second gen Pakistani American and every friend or family member in my circle feels like we have to grit our teeth and put up with the cringe any time we have to interact with British Pakistani extended family (NO it is not us looking down on you but just noticing the difference). I say grit our teeth and cringe because even when we offer our help all they (extended family) do is stupid stuff to save face for non-existent pride. Almost every US born Pakistani American feels this when interacting with y'all despite our efforts to help and we are cringing with pity at y'all.


View attachment 161543

I'm reading sweeping statement after sweeping statement. Perhaps US Pakistanis have gotten farther according to your chosen metrics, but that's not to say British Pakistanis haven't still done well for themselves.

For example you may perceive that someone has done well by going into further education and getting a degree en route a 9-5 job, I might decide that's pointless if you've accrued thousands of £ debt en route and you're now in your late 20s and still living off your parents. Perhaps someone straight out of school at 16, hypothetically, that owns a takeaway or mobile phone business that generates £1000s a week and now drives a nice car and has a big house, provides for his parents, has relatively done better.

The bottom line is that our perception of success is subjective. Individuals have different paths, skills, priorities and there's arguments for or against their relative success.

I don't think any community is actively seeking competition against any other community. I don't think British Pakistanis worry about or the thought occurs in their mind that US Pakistanis have gotten farther than them, as you put it. I personally don't know of any US Pakistani success stories except the owner of Fulham FC, and that's only because I follow football, otherwise I'd be none the wiser.

I wish Pakistanis everywhere in the world success. May we flourish and uplift our country and its image.

 

[rickroll]

I'm reading sweeping statement after sweeping statement. Perhaps US Pakistanis have gotten farther according to your chosen metrics, but that's not to say British Pakistanis haven't still done well for themselves.

For example you may perceive that someone has done well by going into further education and getting a degree en route a 9-5 job, I might decide that's pointless if you've accrued thousands of £ debt en route and you're now in your late 20s and still living off your parents. Perhaps someone straight out of school at 16, hypothetically, that owns a takeaway or mobile phone business that generates £1000s a week and now drives a nice car and has a big house, provides for his parents, has relatively done better.

The bottom line is that our perception of success is subjective. Individuals have different paths, skills, priorities and there's arguments for or against their relative success.

I don't think any community is actively seeking competition against any other community. I don't think British Pakistanis worry about or the thought occurs in their mind that US Pakistanis have gotten farther than them, as you put it. I personally don't know of any US Pakistani success stories except the owner of Fulham FC, and that's only because I follow football, otherwise I'd be none the wiser.

I wish Pakistanis everywhere in the world success. May we flourish and uplift our country and its image.

I don't really have any issue with your assertions that American Pakistanis are more successful financially, the consensus seems to be that generally only the highly educated Pakistanis end up in the USA, whereas British Pakistanis arrived mostly from rural and less educated backgrounds in the early 50's, from Punjab following partition, then again in the 70's (I think) from Kashmir following the Mangla Dam construction which displaced hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris from Mirpur.

People from rural backgrounds tend to be more religious and this affects their attitude to education in a western country where there is no segregation these days. You will see similar attitudes from Afghan refugees who are also usually conservative. That would explain why they have been slower to take advantage of the high standard of education available, although I have seen this changing a lot in the last couple of decades. From what I have heard from relatives who live in the US, the American Pakistanis tend to assimilate into the American culture and don't really have much of a Pakistani culture as such.

As far as the nerds and sportsmen comment, I would say don't take it personally. It wasn't really aimed at American Pakistanis as such, more the desis in the US in general. We watch a lot of US shows and movies over here, and that is the impression we get.

I'm reading sweeping statement after sweeping statement. Perhaps US Pakistanis have gotten farther according to your chosen metrics, but that's not to say British Pakistanis haven't still done well for themselves.

For example you may perceive that someone has done well by going into further education and getting a degree en route a 9-5 job, I might decide that's pointless if you've accrued thousands of £ debt en route and you're now in your late 20s and still living off your parents. Perhaps someone straight out of school at 16, hypothetically, that owns a takeaway or mobile phone business that generates £1000s a week and now drives a nice car and has a big house, provides for his parents, has relatively done better.

The bottom line is that our perception of success is subjective. Individuals have different paths, skills, priorities and there's arguments for or against their relative success.

I don't think any community is actively seeking competition against any other community. I don't think British Pakistanis worry about or the thought occurs in their mind that US Pakistanis have gotten farther than them, as you put it. I personally don't know of any US Pakistani success stories except the owner of Fulham FC, and that's only because I follow football, otherwise I'd be none the wiser.

I wish Pakistanis everywhere in the world success. May we flourish and uplift our country and its image.

Lo jee, here we go again with defensive responses. This is exactly how many of us Pakistani Americans see British Pakistanis respond even when we reach out in a non-confrontational way to point out facts. Instead of acknowledging facts backed with sources the response is to run in circles because it hurts some non-existent pride. Your heart is in a good place bhai but let me please clarify. Also, this is not an argument but just a discussion.

I'm not making sweeping statements - I am not making any sweeping statements that usually have baseless opinions. If I offer a baseless opinion saying "all British Pakistanis are XYZ" then that is a sweeping statement. I am merely pointing out the data to you to show how the community is trending. Obvious big difference between the two? You called my point on earliest British Pakistanis being 4th gen as a "sweeping statement" did I not prove that wrong by also presenting facts that you guys have a 2 generation head start over us?

Fallacy in your point regarding Money & Success - Financial mobility is one of the many attributes of success and it is not the ONLY attribute. I agree as well. Is money and wealth the only metric I posted? See below, I have posted again. Why are you guys honing in only on financial outcome for college education? Do you not realize that college education also creates better general awareness for good practices in health/famil/social well being? College education not yielding financial outcomes in career is only a recent AI driven still unproven event. Before this, it is common sense that college education will yield better financial outcomes in the long run. There are many proven studies to back this, and NO some one off anecdotal BS like your "cousin's friend's neighbor without degree being a real estate millionaire" does not count (now THIS is a sweeping statement).

Forget Money as success metric and look at other metrics - Why is your infant mortality higher? Why are women among British Pakistanis have such low unemployment? Low women unemployment also means lower overall freedom for women. Why is your prison population so much higher? Do you guys not see that lack of education has a direct effect on your community falling behind on these key HDI metrics?

This is not a competition between Pakistanis - You are right, this is not a competition and we want all Pakistanis everywhere to succeed. This is exactly my point. We (Pakistani Americans) do wish+hope that British Pakistanis do not fall behind. The first step in fixing a problem is acknowledging the problem and not think of the messenger as your adversary? British Pakistanis almost always have this knee jerk defensive reaction to deny their bad reality even when shown facts and run things around in circles. Is this because your community is already insecure so even when someone shows facts in a helpful way your community's insecurity pushed you into a natural defensive reaction? This is a genuine question because many of us observe this when interacting with British Pakistani family even when on best terms otherwise.

British Pakistanis arrived mostly from rural and less educated backgrounds in the early 50's - This does make sense to an extent. 1950s was 70+ years ago and if we assume 25 years for each generation to take into adulthood working population then this is 3 generations. Are we seeing regressive outlooks passing along to 3 generations? That seems pretty intense and makes me wonder why that happens. Here among Pakistani Americans regressive outlooks usually go away or mitigated a lot at worst by the next generation. Is this also why we see higher levels of terrorism/crime radicalization situations among British Pakistanis? I also like your analogy of the Afghans. What is interesting is I have anecdotally seen quite a few motivated 2nd generation Afghan American kids (their parents being migrants without education to the US) be super talented in higher end roles like private equity. I gave private equity internships in my firm to 3 2nd gen Afghan kids and I kid you not, one of them was a girl - go figure! Now I wonder if there is something in the American ecosystem different from the UK ecosystem for all migrants.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Lo jee, here we go again with defensive responses. This is exactly how many of us Pakistani Americans see British Pakistanis respond even when we reach out in a non-confrontational way to point out facts. Instead of acknowledging facts backed with sources the response is to run in circles because it hurts some non-existent pride. Your heart is in a good place bhai but let me please clarify. Also, this is not an argument but just a discussion.

I'm not making sweeping statements - I am not making any sweeping statements that usually have baseless opinions. If I offer a baseless opinion saying "all British Pakistanis are XYZ" then that is a sweeping statement. I am merely pointing out the data to you to show how the community is trending. Obvious big difference between the two? You called my point on earliest British Pakistanis being 4th gen as a "sweeping statement" did I not prove that wrong by also presenting facts that you guys have a 2 generation head start over us?

Fallacy in your point regarding Money & Success - Financial mobility is one of the many attributes of success and it is not the ONLY attribute. I agree as well. Is money and wealth the only metric I posted? See below, I have posted again. Why are you guys honing in only on financial outcome for college education? Do you not realize that college education also creates better general awareness for good practices in health/famil/social well being? College education not yielding financial outcomes in career is only a recent AI driven still unproven event. Before this, it is common sense that college education will yield better financial outcomes in the long run. There are many proven studies to back this, and NO some one off anecdotal BS like your "cousin's friend's neighbor without degree being a real estate millionaire" does not count (now THIS is a sweeping statement).

Forget Money as success metric and look at other metrics - Why is your infant mortality higher? Why are women among British Pakistanis have such low unemployment? Low women unemployment also means lower overall freedom for women. Why is your prison population so much higher? Do you guys not see that lack of education has a direct effect on your community falling behind on these key HDI metrics?

This is not a competition between Pakistanis - You are right, this is not a competition and we want all Pakistanis everywhere to succeed. This is exactly my point. We (Pakistani Americans) do wish+hope that British Pakistanis do not fall behind. The first step in fixing a problem is acknowledging the problem and not think of the messenger as your adversary? British Pakistanis almost always have this knee jerk defensive reaction to deny their bad reality even when shown facts and run things around in circles. Is this because your community is already insecure so even when someone shows facts in a helpful way your community's insecurity pushed you into a natural defensive reaction? This is a genuine question because many of us observe this when interacting with British Pakistani family even when on best terms otherwise.

British Pakistanis arrived mostly from rural and less educated backgrounds in the early 50's - This does make sense to an extent. 1950s was 70+ years ago and if we assume 25 years for each generation to take into adulthood working population then this is 3 generations. Are we seeing regressive outlooks passing along to 3 generations? That seems pretty intense and makes me wonder why that happens. Here among Pakistani Americans regressive outlooks usually go away or mitigated a lot at worst by the next generation. Is this also why we see higher levels of terrorism/crime radicalization situations among British Pakistanis? I also like your analogy of the Afghans. What is interesting is I have anecdotally seen quite a few motivated 2nd generation Afghan American kids (their parents being migrants without education to the US) be super talented in higher end roles like private equity. I gave private equity internships in my firm to 3 2nd gen Afghan kids and I kid you not, one of them was a girl - go figure! Now I wonder if there is something in the American ecosystem different from the UK ecosystem for all migrants.


View attachment 161582

Might be better if you quote people seperately if you are going to make statements like "defensive responses". Maybe you are addressing @corleone here because I don't see anything to be defensive about, I have no issues with your facts or stats as I already said.

As for terrorism/radicalism/crime, these tend to happen more among the disenfranchised and poorer communities. We are seeing it among the white communities now as well, there are plenty of studies that white males now feel discriminated and are faring worse in studies, and if the UK economy doesn't recover, I expect we'll see even more far right noise as you have in the USA with the MAGA movement.

Most nations are made up of wealthy elites, middle class and working class. I haven't seen any where they get by on everyone just being upper class elite. Manual work is still a thriving industry here, maybe when everything can be done by robots we will have a rethink on everyone's usefulness.

 

[rickroll]

Might be better if you quote people seperately if you are going to make statements like "defensive responses". Maybe you are addressing @corleone here because I don't see anything to be defensive about, I have no issues with your facts or stats as I already said.

As for terrorism/radicalism/crime, these tend to happen more among the disenfranchised and poorer communities. We are seeing it among the white communities now as well, there are plenty of studies that white males now feel discriminated and are faring worse in studies, and if the UK economy doesn't recover, I expect we'll see even more far right noise as you have in the USA with the MAGA movement.

Most nations are made up of wealthy elites, middle class and working class. I haven't seen any where they get by on everyone just being upper class elite. Manual work is still a thriving industry here, maybe when everything can be done by robots we will have a rethink on everyone's usefulness.

My initial defensive comment was at @corleone and my subsequent comment in my post was a generic one at British Pakistanis in general (including my extended family). I just quoted multiple posts together since it is easier to respond but you make a good point since it confuses who I am responding specific comments to.

Terrorism/crime among poorer communities - I absolutely agree. Matter of fact this reinforces my earlier point and probably negates the counter point that financial is not everything in life. Income ability is a key indirect metric for other positive social indicators. I say this in many contexts - money may not bring happiness but lack of money has higher chances of bringing misery. Lack of education or lack of higher income may seem like surface issues where people can argue "degree is not important, income is not important" etc to cope but see what has happened to the British Pakistani community now. 4 generations have languished in a first world country that offers very good free social benefits.

Education has so many downstream positive effects, not just degree-job-financial effect. Just look at Afghan Americans (the very Afghans many PPers here look down as radicals). Their 1st gen uneducated immigrants to the US (country with no social benefits) make the effort to educate their kids (sons and daughters mind you) and these 2nd gen Afghan kids move up the socio-economic ladder with life success. If uneducated strict Islamic Afghan refugees can uplift their 2nd generation in US with minimal social benefits, why are 3rd or 4th gen British Pakistanis unable to do so in UK with much better social benefits? - I agree that this simplified question has a complex nuanced answer but the fact of this apparent gap remains at large.

Most nations are made up of wealthy elites, middle class and working class - Yes and this is how any country's economic system works. But we are not talking about UK as a whole or US as a whole, we are talking about a specific community inside a country. We are also not generalizing for an entire community to be only wealthy or only poor but we are looking at the composite median and are looking at the cause for this wide disparity between the two Pakistani origin communities.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

My initial defensive comment was at @corleone and my subsequent comment in my post was a generic one at British Pakistanis in general (including my extended family). I just quoted multiple posts together since it is easier to respond but you make a good point since it confuses who I am responding specific comments to.

Terrorism/crime among poorer communities - I absolutely agree. Matter of fact this reinforces my earlier point and probably negates the counter point that financial is not everything in life. Income ability is a key indirect metric for other positive social indicators. I say this in many contexts - money may not bring happiness but lack of money has higher chances of bringing misery. Lack of education or lack of higher income may seem like surface issues where people can argue "degree is not important, income is not important" etc to cope but see what has happened to the British Pakistani community now. 4 generations have languished in a first world country that offers very good free social benefits.

Education has so many downstream positive effects, not just degree-job-financial effect. Just look at Afghan Americans (the very Afghans many PPers here look down as radicals). Their 1st gen uneducated immigrants to the US (country with no social benefits) make the effort to educate their kids (sons and daughters mind you) and these 2nd gen Afghan kids move up the socio-economic ladder with life success. If uneducated strict Islamic Afghan refugees can uplift their 2nd generation in US with minimal social benefits, why are 3rd or 4th gen British Pakistanis unable to do so in UK with much better social benefits? - I agree that this simplified question has a complex nuanced answer but the fact of this apparent gap remains at large.

Most nations are made up of wealthy elites, middle class and working class - Yes and this is how any country's economic system works. But we are not talking about UK as a whole or US as a whole, we are talking about a specific community inside a country. We are also not generalizing for an entire community to be only wealthy or only poor but we are looking at the composite median and are looking at the cause for this wide disparity between the two Pakistani origin communities.

Well you are looking for the cause for the disparity. I don't think most British Pakistanis are even aware American Pakistanis exist. At the basic level they will come here from Pakistan and start earning a living. If they are not here for employment that will probably mean selling something or driving ubers. Maybe they will continue doing that for generations, I don't know. In my circles most are professionals but I don't live in a Pakistani neighbourhood. I did spend the first few years of my life in a white council estate and that was grim.

In the UK the Afghans aren't really seen as upwardly mobile types either so not sure how much relevance your personal experience is instructional. Especially given your somewhat unflattering signature regarding Afghans.Over here Pakistanis are generally considered to be doing considerably better than Afghans in the spheres you are talking about.

 

[ghalib kichlu]

All fair points so let's create a thread comparing Indian Americans and Pakistani Americans and analyze it there. But this thread is soliciting opinions about British Pakistanis. I'm comparing and contrasting British Pakistanis relative to my most knowledgeable community - Pakistani Americans.

I do like the likes of shahid khan and imam vellani
I love watching nfl and miss marvel etc
My friends love listening to Nicki Minhaj etc

 

[rickroll]

Well you are looking for the cause for the disparity. I don't think most British Pakistanis are even aware American Pakistanis exist. At the basic level they will come here from Pakistan and start earning a living. If they are not here for employment that will probably mean selling something or driving ubers. Maybe they will continue doing that for generations, I don't know. In my circles most are professionals but I don't live in a Pakistani neighbourhood. I did spend the first few years of my life in a white council estate and that was grim.

In the UK the Afghans aren't really seen as upwardly mobile types either so not sure how much relevance your personal experience is instructional. Especially given your somewhat unflattering signature regarding Afghans.Over here Pakistanis are generally considered to be doing considerably better than Afghans in the spheres you are talking about.

To clarify - my signature about Afghans is from a political standpoint. As much as I abhor the backstabbing of Pakistanis by the Bangladeshis/Afghans/Arabs I will also concede some of the positive things they may have done. Credit where credit is due and that will be true for everyone (including the Indians).

I get it for the fresh immigrants and I do not question that at all. I do question the 2nd and 3rd gen Pakistani descendants in UK who still languish despite first world birth + social benefits when similar socio-economic background people in the US have noticeable better metrics in the US during 2nd gen. Mind you I'm only contrasting similar cultures here because some of the 20+ generations of African Americans also languish in the US but it becomes apples-oranges comparison here due to different cultures.

Your point about Afghan Americans made me curious and I dug into some data sources. So here is an updated table comparing Pakistani Americans, British Pakistanis, Afghan Americans. I see the same argument from British Pakistanis saying they are uneducated immigrants hence they lack in all metrics (which is flawed by itself when applied for 2nd or 3rd gen). So let's compare similar less educated+more religious Islamic immigrants in key metrics. Afghan Americans and British Pakistanis. I urge all British Pakistanis to please see the results below. The Afghans most of us look down on as radicalized and more regressive actually perform better than British Pakistanis, that too in a country with less support system than UK. Why/how is this so?

You guys (British Pakistanis) think we (Pakistani Americans) are looking at you with contempt because we have more money. This is NOT true. Most of us are looking at you with sympathy because British Pakistanis severely lack in many metrics as a community. For some Pakistani Americans this pity does devolve into contempt when the typical British Pakistani response is denying/skirting/coping insecurity driven as opposed to having an honest dialog acknowledging the truth.





Sources for analysis and compilation of above data:

• https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2021-09/camarota-afghans-9-21.pdf
• https://reliefweb.int/report/united...s-afghan-newcomers-contribute-646m-us-economy
• https://iir.gmu.edu/immigrant-stori...ington-dc-and-baltimore-md-metropolitan-areas
• https://www.upwardlyglobal.org/news...economy-more-than-1-7b-in-potential-earnings/
• https://nursekey.com/afghans-and-af...ing to these,men are reluctant to participate.
• https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blo...),,attainment than the rest of the population.
• https://www.health.state.mn.us/comm...r barriers.-,9,deaths per 100,000 live births.
• https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1724420
• https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/afghan-immigrants-in-the-united-states/
• https://www.npr.org/2025/01/27/nx-s...han allies,also being impacted, VanDiver said.
• https://cis.org/Report/Economic-and...se of Afghan poverty,all natives (25 percent).
• https://fee.org/articles/no-afghan-... were true,as prioritizing women and children.

 

[rickroll]

I do like the likes of shahid khan and imam vellani
I love watching nfl and miss marvel etc
My friends love listening to Nicki Minhaj etc

Oh man, I did not know that Nicki Minhaj has Pakistani roots. Now you have made me curious.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

To clarify - my signature about Afghans is from a political standpoint. As much as I abhor the backstabbing of Pakistanis by the Bangladeshis/Afghans/Arabs I will also concede some of the positive things they may have done. Credit where credit is due and that will be true for everyone (including the Indians).

I get it for the fresh immigrants and I do not question that at all. I do question the 2nd and 3rd gen Pakistani descendants in UK who still languish despite first world birth + social benefits when similar socio-economic background people in the US have noticeable better metrics in the US during 2nd gen. Mind you I'm only contrasting similar cultures here because some of the 20+ generations of African Americans also languish in the US but it becomes apples-oranges comparison here due to different cultures.

Your point about Afghan Americans made me curious and I dug into some data sources. So here is an updated table comparing Pakistani Americans, British Pakistanis, Afghan Americans. I see the same argument from British Pakistanis saying they are uneducated immigrants hence they lack in all metrics (which is flawed by itself when applied for 2nd or 3rd gen). So let's compare similar less educated+more religious Islamic immigrants in key metrics. Afghan Americans and British Pakistanis. I urge all British Pakistanis to please see the results below. The Afghans most of us look down on as radicalized and more regressive actually perform better than British Pakistanis, that too in a country with less support system than UK. Why/how is this so?

You guys (British Pakistanis) think we (Pakistani Americans) are looking at you with contempt because we have more money. This is NOT true. Most of us are looking at you with sympathy because British Pakistanis severely lack in many metrics as a community. For some Pakistani Americans this pity does devolve into contempt when the typical British Pakistani response is denying/skirting/coping insecurity driven as opposed to having an honest dialog acknowledging the truth.


View attachment 161595


Sources for analysis and compilation of above data:

• https://cis.org/sites/default/files/2021-09/camarota-afghans-9-21.pdf
• https://reliefweb.int/report/united...s-afghan-newcomers-contribute-646m-us-economy
• https://iir.gmu.edu/immigrant-stori...ington-dc-and-baltimore-md-metropolitan-areas
• https://www.upwardlyglobal.org/news...economy-more-than-1-7b-in-potential-earnings/
• https://nursekey.com/afghans-and-afghan-americans/#:~:text=In fact, according to these,men are reluctant to participate.
• https://www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2017/03/immigrant_familiesa.html#:~:text=According to the Current Population Survey (CPS),,attainment than the rest of the population.
• https://www.health.state.mn.us/communities/rih/coe/clinical/obafghan/inafghan.html#:~:text=or other barriers.-,9,deaths per 100,000 live births.
• https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1369183X.2020.1724420
• https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/afghan-immigrants-in-the-united-states/
• https://www.npr.org/2025/01/27/nx-s1-5273521/trump-executive-order-refugee-afghanistan-veterans#:~:text=Longstanding pathways for Afghan allies,also being impacted, VanDiver said.
• https://cis.org/Report/Economic-and-Cultural-Challenges-Afghan-Immigration#:~:text=The cause of Afghan poverty,all natives (25 percent).
• https://fee.org/articles/no-afghan-refugees-won-t-drive-up-crime-in-america/#:~:text=Even if that were true,as prioritizing women and children.

Now you are comparing Afghan Americans with British Pakistanis. Any Afghan allowed into the USA will probably be there because they are from an educated demographic in the first place, while British Afghans will have mostly come as refugees or criminals pretending to be refugees.

You are fluffing a lot of your posts with unnecessary references like sympathy, insecurity, defensiveness etc. Better just to leave out your personal opinions and present your arguments because these are weakening them, not reinforcing.

 

[rickroll]

Now you are comparing Afghan Americans with British Pakistanis. Any Afghan allowed into the USA will probably be there because they are from an educated demographic in the first place, while British Afghans will have mostly come as refugees or criminals pretending to be refugees.

You are fluffing a lot of your posts with unnecessary references like sympathy, insecurity, defensiveness etc. Better just to leave out your personal opinions and present your arguments because these are weakening them, not reinforcing.

I am only sharing the typical responses many of us see and also clarify the intentions from Pakistani Americans side. I said sympathy from our end because some posters in this thread alluded that I am somehow hinting at competition when that is not the case. So I wanted to reinforce and clarify the intent from our side. If I do not clarify this intent then I'm sure another bunch of British Pakistani posters here would counter me saying I am being too aggressive/contentious/competitive/materialistic against them, blah blah. From Pakistani American side it feels like walking on egg shells anytime we point simple facts about the British Pakistani community even in a non-confrontational manner. Every response (including yours) is about picking apart the messenger rather than looking at the logic of the message. It sure is between a rock and hard place for us anytime we communicate this topic with British Pakistanis (yes, my own family included here).

The above being said, let's go to facts.

Most of the Afghan immigrants to the US are NOT educated well off immigrants. You are wrong about Afghan Americans. I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion since a basic search would have told you otherwise? Forget education, most of the immigrants even lack English proficiency and most of them came to the US under some special provisions for having helped the US against the Taliban.

A reference link for Afghan Americans (you can find many others too) - https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/afghan-immigrants-united-states-2022

Why I included Afghan Americans for comparison - If I only include Pakistani Americans then the response (including yours) is that British Pakistanis did not come from an educated background 1-2 generations ago, lack of education also meant they are more religious, thus restricting next generations etc. Since y'all argued that this background is contrarian to the more educated Pakistani American group, I wanted to show another similar group - a less educated strictly Islamic South Asian community that immigrated to the US so that y'all can see an apples-apples comparison and see the lagging metrics for British Pakistanis.

If we show Pakistani Americans - British Pakistani discrepancy: Response is "Y'all were more educated than us 2 generations ago"
If we show similar background Afghan Americans - British Pakistani discrepancy: Response is "They are AFGHANS and we are PAKISTANIS"

The British Pakistani lower HDI metrics even percolates up in the way people most messages in this forum TBH. Top two coming to my mind ...
Just look at how many British Pakistanis supported Trump (driven by hatred of "liberals") even when shown proof of his anti-Islamic stance. Basic lack of critical thinking fueling knee jerk responses.
Just look at how many British Pakistanis here support a misogynistic idiot like Andrew Tate.

 

[rickroll]

Now you are comparing Afghan Americans with British Pakistanis. Any Afghan allowed into the USA will probably be there because they are from an educated demographic in the first place, while British Afghans will have mostly come as refugees or criminals pretending to be refugees.

You are fluffing a lot of your posts with unnecessary references like sympathy, insecurity, defensiveness etc. Better just to leave out your personal opinions and present your arguments because these are weakening them, not reinforcing.

Now that I have shown that Afghan Americans (similar South Asian muslims) come from similar or even more oppressed backgrounds like British Pakistanis, the question below does loom large and I would be curious to see responses from British Pakistanis about this.

The Afghans most of us look down on as radicalized and more regressive actually perform better than British Pakistanis, that too in a country with less support system than UK. Why/how is this so?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Now that I have shown that Afghan Americans (similar South Asian muslims) come from similar or even more oppressed backgrounds like British Pakistanis, the question below does loom large and I would be curious to see responses from British Pakistanis about this.

The Afghans most of us look down on as radicalized and more regressive actually perform better than British Pakistanis, that too in a country with less support system than UK. Why/how is this so?

I had a quick glance through your sources and it seems that the Afghans who were granted visas to the USA were previously professionals, and following the war launched by America against Afghanistan they were translators or interpreters for the US military. That would suggest they were from an educated background so this isn't really a like for like comparison. I think this is similar to the Iranian exiles who are dotted around the western world, they usually come from educated background, they aren't the salt of the earth types who make up the majority.

 

[rickroll]

I had a quick glance through your sources and it seems that the Afghans who were granted visas to the USA were previously professionals, and following the war launched by America against Afghanistan they were translators or interpreters for the US military. That would suggest they were from an educated background so this isn't really a like for like comparison. I think this is similar to the Iranian exiles who are dotted around the western world, they usually come from educated background, they aren't the salt of the earth types who make up the majority.

Screenshots from that same link ...

53% of men and 60% of women lacked English proficiency, let alone education. Even for the translators/interpreters they just knew enough to barely communicate and nothing more. Bear in mind that the US military also had their own Pashto/Dari speakers so many Afghan interpreters were there as another layer of information check.



72% do not have college education and we all know the "quality" of high school education from any rural part of South Asia let alone a historically war torn place like Afghanistan.




Afghan refugee immigrants to the US have at best equal education as Pakistani refugee/economic migrants to the UK and in realistic terms the Afghans come from even more challenged backgrounds.

There are 3 steps to this analysis. Input->Process->Output
#1 Input - quality of the people in terms of education.
#2 Process - What the US or UK social/govt/economic system provides/does for the input.
#3 Output - The resulting HDI metrics for the input as a result of that process.

I'm asking about why the output for British Pakistanis is markedly lower in spite of higher input and wondering what defects in the process is causing that. You (and many typical British Pakistani response) is either not acknowledging the output or being in denial of the defects in the process and laying the emphasis that the output is less solely because the input is low. This understandably is an easier copout response because it directs the blame on an external entity and not on your country/community. Mind you we are comparing a 2nd or 3rd gen population data where even a difference in input is highly mitigated or nullified. Even if we assume generational change does not nullify input population quality, I can share however many sources to confirm the less qualifications of US Afghan immigrants relative to British Pakistani migrants. Also consider that the US is a much less forgiving system with barely any social benefits unlike what y'all enjoy.

In essence a lower quality US input (lower than the UK input) is turned into a higher quality US output by a lower benefitted US system. Where and how is the British Pakistani process failing relative to the US such that is producing sub-optimal output? - this is the crux of the issue.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Screenshots from that same link ...

53% of men and 60% of women lacked English proficiency, let alone education. Even for the translators/interpreters they just knew enough to barely communicate and nothing more. Bear in mind that the US military also had their own Pashto/Dari speakers so many Afghan interpreters were there as another layer of information check.

View attachment 161628

72% do not have college education and we all know the "quality" of high school education from any rural part of South Asia let alone a historically war torn place like Afghanistan.

View attachment 161629


Afghan refugee immigrants to the US have at best equal education as Pakistani refugee/economic migrants to the UK and in realistic terms the Afghans come from even more challenged backgrounds.

There are 3 steps to this analysis. Input->Process->Output
#1 Input - quality of the people in terms of education.
#2 Process - What the US or UK social/govt/economic system provides/does for the input.
#3 Output - The resulting HDI metrics for the input as a result of that process.

I'm asking about why the output for British Pakistanis is markedly lower in spite of higher input and wondering what defects in the process is causing that. You (and many typical British Pakistani response) is either not acknowledging the output or being in denial of the defects in the process and laying the emphasis that the output is less solely because the input is low. This understandably is an easier copout response because it directs the blame on an external entity and not on your country/community. Mind you we are comparing a 2nd or 3rd gen population data where even a difference in input is highly mitigated or nullified. Even if we assume generational change does not nullify input population quality, I can share however many sources to confirm the less qualifications of US Afghan immigrants relative to British Pakistani migrants. Also consider that the US is a much less forgiving system with barely any social benefits unlike what y'all enjoy.

In essence a lower quality US input (lower than the UK input) is turned into a higher quality US output by a lower benefitted US system. Where and how is the British Pakistani process failing relative to the US such that is producing sub-optimal output? - this is the crux of the issue.

This would suggest that those who aided the invasion and attempted conquest of Afghanistan by the USA were given priority and fast-tracked for green cards. Again you are comparing apples to oranges. Back in the times of British influx of Indian migrants, the need was of manual and physically superior labour.

During the invasion of Afghanistan, the US requirement was more geared towards intel, so they had to establish links with those willing to be pragmatic and who might be persuaded by a boost to their bank accounts. But which Afghan has actually achieved more success than the now discredited Apu from the Simpsons? Do you want to go there?

 

[rickroll]

This would suggest that those who aided the invasion and attempted conquest of Afghanistan by the USA were given priority and fast-tracked for green cards. Again you are comparing apples to oranges. Back in the times of British influx of Indian migrants, the need was of manual and physically superior labour.

During the invasion of Afghanistan, the US requirement was more geared towards intel, so they had to establish links with those willing to be pragmatic and who might be persuaded by a boost to their bank accounts. But which Afghan has actually achieved more success than the now discredited Apu from the Simpsons? Do you want to go there?

Huh?? I just showed you data for their education and English proficiency levels which is similar or lower than British Pakistani migrants of at least one generation prior (so British Pakistanis have one generation more in UK as an advantage too). It does not matter who Afghans aided or to what extent when all we are comparing is the quality of the input.

Mind you I am not even posing the question of - Why does it matter what education the grandparents had when the 2nd or 3rd gen still lag so far behind today compared to Afghan Americans (forget Pakistani Americans for a moment).

Again - This is an attempt (conscious or subconscious) to pint it as a perceived flaw being in the input since that is an external defect as opposed to the more intrinsic "Process" resulting in lower quality output.

This is the same circuitous deflection+denial type response all of us Pakistani Americans get from British Pakistani relatives when we try to have a conversation. I'm adding yet another disclaimer that this is coming from a sympathetic POV, not an argument etc (regardless of @Cpt. Rishwat calling that a distraction) because that is usually yet another deflection tactic from objective analysis of this data by some other British Pakistanis not wanting to confront the truth.

 

[Varun]

Just look at how many British Pakistanis here support a misogynistic idiot like Andrew Tate.

The individual in question announced his conversion to Islam, which played a major part in the adulation. Back in the day, even a loon like Michael Jackson became halal for the same reason.

But the religion is not a strict condition. Putin for example, is lauded in the British Pakistani world because he is perceived to be against the West, even though he will likely see this group as nothing more than human shields in his war.

 

[Hitman]

I'm just waiting for the day they liberate Palestine and Kashmir, by the bare use of their lip service.