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British Pakistanis: Discussion Thread

I would take the bolded with a pinch of salt. British Pakistani women tend to be housewives - there were some figures that around 50% of British Pakistani women are unemployed. There is nothing inherently wrong with that but compared to American Pakistanis, or other British communities, that figure is disproportionate.

If that's the case then the British Pakistani must be too successful that they can afford to buy homes and properties with only one salary. In my family both immediate and extended mostly all the women work in professional jobs, some of them have reached higher positions than most posting here I would imagine.

Personally I still hold to the regressive view that earning a living is the man's job and the woman's is to bring up her children. I can afford it, but unfortunately most Brits whether Pakistani or not, need two incomes to buy a house if they don't inherit from their parents.
 
That said, a profession is not something that should be denied to women. As I said, in my family both immediate and extended, all of the women work, but they rely heavily on family support (grandparents etc) to help with childminding duties. It's probably easier in the US where they can hire illegal immigrants as nannies or in the subcontinent where nannies are cheap and available for a nominal cost.
 
If that's the case then the British Pakistani must be too successful that they can afford to buy homes and properties with only one salary. In my family both immediate and extended mostly all the women work in professional jobs, some of them have reached higher positions than most posting here I would imagine.

Personally I still hold to the regressive view that earning a living is the man's job and the woman's is to bring up her children. I can afford it, but unfortunately most Brits whether Pakistani or not, need two incomes to buy a house if they don't inherit from their parents.
I am not shocked, this is classic British Pakistani from my experience and hence why out of Pakistanis worldwide they tend to be lagging in a lot of aspects.

The rest of your post is just a typical attempt to obfuscate with a sly dig/brag thrown in for good measure. British Pakistanis are below national average when it comes to own ownership.

Speaking of income:

1771239366865.png



I am sure you will find your way to weasel out of this with some irrelevant and insincere remark so unless you bring something more than your usual vacuous remarks there is nothing more that needs to be said.
 
Like I said that was maybe a culture thing of past Generations.

The younger and current Generation this certainly does not apply to them.
That is good to hear. The regressive mindset of British Pakistanis has held them back (Rishwat being a great example). If that is changing then it is incredible.
 
I am not shocked, this is classic British Pakistani from my experience and hence why out of Pakistanis worldwide they tend to be lagging in a lot of aspects.

The rest of your post is just a typical attempt to obfuscate with a sly dig/brag thrown in for good measure. British Pakistanis are below national average when it comes to own ownership.

Speaking of income:

View attachment 161775



I am sure you will find your way to weasel out of this with some irrelevant and insincere remark so unless you bring something more than your usual vacuous remarks there is nothing more that needs to be said.


I am always surprised to see these sort of stats, usually produced by jingo bingo Indian posters like cricketjoshila it has to be said. But I don't need to argue them, maybe I live in a bubble and the British Pakistanis I see don't reflect the rest of Britain. I already said I don't have much experience of living in a city with a large Pakistani British population.

You and rickroll might have relatives or associates from a poverty stricken area so YMMV.
 
All,

please ignore @rickroll pessimistic posts. British Pakistanis are the bestest community and they will get better with a more stricter version of Islam. No education for women as it leads to breakdown of family structure. Please consider absorbing BD brothers as they also have a proper conservative outlook.
How are his posts pessimistic? It is the likes of Rishwat here flip flopping, deflecting, making sly digs and trying to purport that their family (if it is even true) is more representative of facts than Government data which is apparently "surprising".
 
How are his posts pessimistic? It is the likes of Rishwat here flip flopping, deflecting, making sly digs and trying to purport that their family (if it is even true) is more representative of facts than Government data which is apparently "surprising".
I take issue with your characterization of brother @Cpt. Rishwat he is very knowledgeable poster. always provide straight answers and does none the flopping you describe. He is as straight a cooked Chinese rice noodle
 
Yes sure Rishwat's contributions in this thread are worse than @Bhaijaan and that is saying something

Be respectful. Brother @Cpt. Rishwat is one of the most highly revered posters here. People respect him for his informed opinions but more for his aristocratic yet generous behaviour. He must be a great descendent of prominent persons from Vedic era.
 
That is good to hear. The regressive mindset of British Pakistanis has held them back (Rishwat being a great example). If that is changing then it is incredible.

Well I am ok with my lot, unfortunately my regressive mindset has only got me a wife and kids and a beautiful home. Perhaps if I had been more progressive I would be wearing a nipple ring and congratulating my adopted kids how great it is to have two dads.
 
Well I am ok with my lot, unfortunately my regressive mindset has only got me a wife and kids and a beautiful home. Perhaps if I had been more progressive I would be wearing a nipple ring and congratulating my adopted kids how great it is to have two dads.

Perfectly normal in the West. In fact, divorce, separation, remarriages etc. should be normalized. You of all people with so many years of experience living in the West shouldn't shun it.
 
Perfectly normal in the West. In fact, divorce, separation, remarriages etc. should be normalized. You of all people with so many years of experience living in the West shouldn't shun it.


Divorce, separation and remarriages happen all the time over here, although why you mentioned those after bolding the bit about two dads I am not sure. This is the difference between me and you, you want to come across as enlightened but if you really believed in the bit you bolded, you would have taken me to task for that instead of diverting to divorce, separation etc.
 
Divorce, separation and remarriages happen all the time over here, although why you mentioned those after bolding the bit about two dads I am not sure. This is the difference between me and you, you want to come across as enlightened but if you really believed in the bit you bolded, you would have taken me to task for that instead of diverting to divorce, separation etc.

Me - enlightened with my 12-word (avg) posts? What flattery, Rishi bhai.

If you're smarting because of other replies upthread, don't take it out on my little post.
 
Me - enlightened with my 12-word (avg) posts? What flattery, Rishi bhai.

If you're smarting because of other replies upthread, don't take it out on my little post.

You were the one who bolded the two dads bit, now you are flailing about, talking about your word count and smarting upthread. You can talk the talk but can't walk the walk.
 
Maybe that's a issue in your part of your extended family where the wives are not working because of some logic. Additionally that logic cannot be religious based as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fist wife was a successful businesswoman

As far as im aware alot ot the Brit - Paks that i know of both Husband and wives are working . In the current economic climate its pretty much impossible for both not to work without managing to run a home with kids.
Please understand that I am not projecting specific issues of British Pakistanis whom I know on everyone else in the community because this would be a flaw on my part.

I am taking a zoomed out perspective of many HDI metrics for the entire community and I am hoping to find the reasonings behind this.

Posts by folks like @ElRaja are helpful in that context while posts by @Cpt. Rishwat seem to reek of the same deflection+denial+fake pride BS that I had the misfortune of experiencing in person from the few British Pakistanis I know.
 
Maybe that's a issue in your part of your extended family where the wives are not working because of some logic. Additionally that logic cannot be religious based as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) fist wife was a successful businesswoman

As far as im aware alot ot the Brit - Paks that i know of both Husband and wives are working . In the current economic climate its pretty much impossible for both not to work without managing to run a home with kids.

Please also understand that this is your anecdotal observation perhaps because your network is with people who are more open minded about this. But the community data as a whole does not reflect this when it comes to women's employment rate, as I have shown in the HDI metrics data.
 
I am always surprised to see these sort of stats, usually produced by jingo bingo Indian posters like cricketjoshila it has to be said. But I don't need to argue them, maybe I live in a bubble and the British Pakistanis I see don't reflect the rest of Britain. I already said I don't have much experience of living in a city with a large Pakistani British population.

You and rickroll might have relatives or associates from a poverty stricken area so YMMV.

That could be it and I already know my extended British Pakistani family are absolute losers (not just financially/professionally but also morally and ethically in terms of how they treat women). But I have taken care not to project my specific anecdotal data onto the entire community, hence I have posted the entire community metrics.
 
@Cpt. Rishwat in this thread has been his usual self - deflect, deflect, deflect, strawman and then ad hominem. It is laughable that he would choose to go after usernames when his own username is one of the worst possible in terms of meaning and creativity. The data is clear - British Pakistanis are far behind American Pakistanis and other Pakistanis on major HDI parameters. How much of that is due to America being a superior country is debatable but to simply deny it is classic Rishwat. These blokes are too used to debating with the likes of @cricketjoshila so when they do come up against posters like us who can destroy them with facts and grammar, they don't like it.
This is my absolute disappointment in this thread. The person who started this ended up getting unnecessarily defensive even though I stated my objectives clearly beforehand that I do not intend to score points or demean a community, but I only want to present facts that everybody can agree upon and then look at why this is happening in their community.

I'm sick of all these India centric threads. The entire internet is flooded by them, so I love threads like this because this forum is one of the few places where it is our (Pakistani) space to delve into our issues. So I have been excited to contribute to this thread only to be taken over by the usual gas lighting, personal attacks (who cares where I'm from just stick to the topic goddamnit!), deflection, denial. I think some posters here are so used to only arguing with Indian trolls for many years that they suddenly do not know how to react with a non-troll person albeit having an opposing pov.
 
If that's the case then the British Pakistani must be too successful that they can afford to buy homes and properties with only one salary. In my family both immediate and extended mostly all the women work in professional jobs, some of them have reached higher positions than most posting here I would imagine.

Personally I still hold to the regressive view that earning a living is the man's job and the woman's is to bring up her children. I can afford it, but unfortunately most Brits whether Pakistani or not, need two incomes to buy a house if they don't inherit from their parents.

I (and many Pakistani Americans) find this backward outdated thinking that is not a good thing regardless of what environment they live (mostly surrounded by non-Islamic Americans or otherwise).

This also makes me wonder if someone like @Cpt. Rishwat who has grown up outside of British Pakistani community influence can hold such an opinion then what about many British Pakistanis who grow up only around their community?

I also want to give credit where credit is due (regardless of whether @Cpt. Rishwat wants to take it or not) to openly share personal views regardless of whether they seem good or not with contemporary standards.
 
This is my absolute disappointment in this thread. The person who started this ended up getting unnecessarily defensive even though I stated my objectives clearly beforehand that I do not intend to score points or demean a community, but I only want to present facts that everybody can agree upon and then look at why this is happening in their community.

I'm sick of all these India centric threads. The entire internet is flooded by them, so I love threads like this because this forum is one of the few places where it is our (Pakistani) space to delve into our issues. So I have been excited to contribute to this thread only to be taken over by the usual gas lighting, personal attacks (who cares where I'm from just stick to the topic goddamnit!), deflection, denial. I think some posters here are so used to only arguing with Indian trolls for many years that they suddenly do not know how to react with a non-troll person albeit having an opposing pov.

But that's all you've done. You presented your tables and charts more or less every other post, no one has really argued about it. It is what it is. It's like I am sure Florida is full of old people who look like tangerines from too much sun, many of them probably from Britain, but beyond that I don't care about it too much. Maybe I'd care more if I lived there.

I'm still not sure what you want from us regarding these stats. Is there some special standard or metric that British Pakistanis need to meet? This isn't defensive, it's literally asking why it matters more than any other British person in the UK. I'm sure you must have some opinion given your hard work compiling these stats.
 
But that's all you've done. You presented your tables and charts more or less every other post, no one has really argued about it. It is what it is. It's like I am sure Florida is full of old people who look like tangerines from too much sun, many of them probably from Britain, but beyond that I don't care about it too much. Maybe I'd care more if I lived there.

I'm still not sure what you want from us regarding these stats. Is there some special standard or metric that British Pakistanis need to meet? This isn't defensive, it's literally asking why it matters more than any other British person in the UK. I'm sure you must have some opinion given your hard work compiling these stats.

But you did. Even when presented with the data you said that you do not see it as a problem that British Pakistanis have that they lag behind Pakistani Americans (and Afghan Americans) despite data. I posted the data again and again asking you why you denied it despite data proof? You have never answered that and are escaping from that question. Let's give you one more chance ...

In the face of data comparing HDI metrics, do you or do you not see British Pakistanis legging behind Pakistani Americans and Afghan Americans, YES/NO? Just give a simple answer without going into pointless BS like my origin, user name etc etc. Oh, I'm asking you this because you first asked me to go into conclusion/inference/reasoning (already explained this too), so don't go into another argument reason to escape from the question.

Just a simple YES/NO for the bolded question.


But you are the one claiming there is a problem. So if I don't see the problem, why would I make YOUR argument for you? For what it's worth, your sympathy or empathy is not needed, we don't know who you are or if you are even an American Pakistani. We are just taking this on faith but you could be anyone.
 
the american community is very different to the british pakistani community, as you say, its simply not a valid comparison. amongst other things american pakistanis were never a large enough community to even be talking point, and when any negativity came towards them it was largely islamophobic in nature.

the britpak community along with the black community has been at the forefront of far rights conciousness for more than 60 years to the point the colloguial term for abusing any brown person was "pa7i bashing". british pakistanis are a very visisible part of this countries political fabric, and imo the media has fed into that demand and given britpaks a lot more stick than any other ethnic group, esepcially when our generations were young.

compare that to the usa, there was a latino rapper who was part of latino gangs, etc, everything till he revealed in an interview he was pakistani. thats how little being pakistani is a part of the american conciousness.

I missed this post. Some good points here and yes, being a prominent minority comes with its own yoke to bear.

How do British Indians feature in the UK since they are also a prominent minority under the UK brown people umbrella? So historically they have also been subject to this systemic discrimination in the UK? What did they do to escape this that our Pakistani community in the UK did not, or is it a case where most Indian immigrants to the UK were more educated while Pakistani immigrants were not? (Makes me curious why that was the case if so).
 
I missed this post. Some good points here and yes, being a prominent minority comes with its own yoke to bear.

How do British Indians feature in the UK since they are also a prominent minority under the UK brown people umbrella? So historically they have also been subject to this systemic discrimination in the UK? What did they do to escape this that our Pakistani community in the UK did not, or is it a case where most Indian immigrants to the UK were more educated while Pakistani immigrants were not? (Makes me curious why that was the case if so).
british indians were still called Pa7is, it made no difference to those of the far right if u were hindu, muslim, jain, whatever, it was all the same, and still is to a racist.

the major difference between british indians and british pakistanis was that the predominant indian communities in the UK, at least in London were firstly punjabi sikhs, who every body generally likes because they are stereotypically extroverted, happy go lucky, and hard working (in my experience one of the most physically hard working ethnic groups in the UK), and secondly gujis, who i have always found have been insular and cliquey, but have leveraged generations of business and wealth building acumen and applied the same in the UK and become wealthy.

the largest group of british pakistanis were kashmiris who came over in the 60s and 70s, and moved to the mill towns of the north. they found work in factories, and were fed the political class rhetoric of the time, which looked to ingrain the class system into the psyche of workers in the name of socialism. when those factories closed and those towns died, the local communities had no where to go other than to turn to themselves for support, creating functioning local economies but also essentially ghettos. it is not a coincidence that the core of the far right that harbours the greatest resentment toward the britpak community is from the exact same communities which were destroyed by deindustrialisation which saw generational employers shut up shop in the span of five or ten years. they lost their communities, but saw that britpaks didnt lose their, even though they were both in the same poverty and depravation.

the british indians were a completely different type of diaspora, and they lived and worked in completely different conditions to the britpak community.

im from london so dont have first hand experience of the north, but im sure @Markhor could correct me where ive gone wrong, and illucidate the point further.
 
i have cousins who i have not had meaningful interactions with in the last twenty odd years, they live in the north, so lack of proximity makes keeping in touch difficult, but i never felt i could relate to them. my point was essentially that we can call out where things have gone wrong in our community, but at the same appreciate why that has happened.

a few of the points u raise

1. a problem with women studying, working. i dont think its a british pakistani thing, as much as an economically inactive thing, where desis use it as an excuse to keep some form of control over women, because the only way of maintaining respect as a man in our community is being a breadwinner, manly man provider husband. i know hundreds of pakistanis and none has discouraged their women from working, some want them to be in women dominant fields, but no one has said sit at home, dont study, etc. so i think its unfair to stick that on all britpaks.

2. conservative, extremists religious outlooks, this is more common in britpaks because brits in general are politically very cynical. americans get excited for elections, vote for two candidates from essentially the little part of the political spectrum and genuinely believe they can change the world (i may be exagerating, but this is my experience in dealing with americans), whereas brits have virtually no belief left in the political system. when the state has no buy in people look for other alternates, and given the history ive mentioned and the how britpaks were seen as terrorists post 9/11, it wasnt a big leap to make to adopt that world view wholesale, where conventional politics had failed. this however has receded significantly in recent times.

3. your contrast, again you have to discount for what jobs your parents did, what communities you were raised in, what opportunities you had and compare that to the communities, opportunities, etc, they had. like i dont think pakistanis have ever stood out for being pakistani in the usa, just for being muslim maybe, and if thats true, does that degree of inconspirciousness not buy you the breathing room to develop into your own individual personlalities. ive done well for myself, but im not impervious to the fact that involved a lot of luck, and my parents making good decisions too.

Man, some very good points here and thank you for that. Let me address/add to just one point, and I may add more for the other 2 points.

3. your contrast, again you have to discount for what jobs your parents did, what communities you were raised in -- I will give my anecdotal experience here and be candid since being anonymous helps me show my true self. Our family is tight knit with siblings and cousins wherein even cousins (in the US) are close like siblings. There is 9 of us siblings and cousins in the US (mostly in California, but some outside). There are 3 2nd cousins (parents are cousins) in the UK, this is the only UK family we are in some sort of touch with. So here goes the absolute contrast

US family
  1. Parents were 1st gen immigrants, middle class family from Pakistan.
  2. All of us siblings and cousins born in the US.
  3. None of us received any government benefit or assistance.
  4. There are 9 of us cousins and siblings 35-50 year age range, all 9 married with kids now.
  5. All 9 of us and our spouses have at least a Master's degree with some being MD doctors and some with PhD degrees from top schools.
  6. All women in the family have high end careers and are now leaders in their respective fields by their own work.
  7. For each of us 9 AND our respective spouses our individual incomes (not combined but each us and spouses) ranges from 400K - $1.5M in USD per year (double it for family income). In my 40s, my wife and I can retire and live well if we choose to. All of us do well by Allah's grace. Money is not everything obviously but I'm sharing this just as a comparative quantifying metric.
  8. Our kids in the 3-17 age ranges all hang out with each other.
  9. Kids excel academically, and are also into numerous sport and music type activities (tacit goal is to target Harvard/Stanford/MIT) type school for their undergrads.

UK family
  1. Parents were 1st gen immigrants, middle class family from Pakistan. Exact same background as the parents in US family in terms of parents' education, income, net wealth when immigrating to the UK.
  2. 3 British Pakistani sons all in similar 35-50 age range, born in the UK.
  3. None of the 3 have any education beyond high school, I suspect if one of them even finished high school.
  4. Two of them have criminal records.
  5. Third has drug issues.
  6. All 3 continue to rely on parents and mooch off of them.
  7. All 3 believe women should not work and that the man should be responsible for earning through whatever means (interpret it how you may).
  8. All 3 display cringe extreme physical objectifying opinions on women when it is just men to the point where I do not feel safe having my wife or daughter without me around them, go figure!
  9. All 3 show the exact same adulation of idiots like Andrew Tate just like how some of the British Pakistanis in this very forum do.
  10. All 3 lecture us (the US side Pakistani Americans) about how to adhere to Islam, and that they are truer Muslims than us etc ... we laugh at the cringe and feel it is not worth reasoning with such a uninformed regressive British Pakistani family member.

So the demographic input in both these cases was the same but the system/process has been different and now just in one generation, the demographic output is night and day. This made me wonder what it is in the systemic process faced by the British Pakistani community that has made the demographic output so markedly different for them.

I shared all the data because without the data, the usual denial brigade people here will claim that nothing is different.
 
british indians were still called Pa7is, it made no difference to those of the far right if u were hindu, muslim, jain, whatever, it was all the same, and still is to a racist.

the major difference between british indians and british pakistanis was that the predominant indian communities in the UK, at least in London were firstly punjabi sikhs, who every body generally likes because they are stereotypically extroverted, happy go lucky, and hard working (in my experience one of the most physically hard working ethnic groups in the UK), and secondly gujis, who i have always found have been insular and cliquey, but have leveraged generations of business and wealth building acumen and applied the same in the UK and become wealthy.

the largest group of british pakistanis were kashmiris who came over in the 60s and 70s, and moved to the mill towns of the north. they found work in factories, and were fed the political class rhetoric of the time, which looked to ingrain the class system into the psyche of workers in the name of socialism. when those factories closed and those towns died, the local communities had no where to go other than to turn to themselves for support, creating functioning local economies but also essentially ghettos. it is not a coincidence that the core of the far right that harbours the greatest resentment toward the britpak community is from the exact same communities which were destroyed by deindustrialisation which saw generational employers shut up shop in the span of five or ten years. they lost their communities, but saw that britpaks didnt lose their, even though they were both in the same poverty and depravation.

the british indians were a completely different type of diaspora, and they lived and worked in completely different conditions to the britpak community.

im from london so dont have first hand experience of the north, but im sure @Markhor could correct me where ive gone wrong, and illucidate the point further.

Very good points here bhai, this is the type of discussion that I have been hoping for in this thread. I feel like I learned new things and I'm thankful to you for that.
 
@Cpt. Rishwat - Here is some history of this thread summarized so you can self-reflect (and I'm not even bringing up your personal attacks because you will deflect that into an argument to hide under those arguments).

Post #83 where you asked me to draw conclusion, which gives me the right to ask you if you even acknowledge the existence of the problem given all the valid HDI data.
So what conclusion do you draw from studying all the data you have presented? Any ideas?

Post #90 where you say you do not see a problem even after seeing all the lagging HDI metrics data for British Pakistanis.
But you are the one claiming there is a problem. So if I don't see the problem, why would I make YOUR argument for you? For what it's worth, your sympathy or empathy is not needed, we don't know who you are or if you are even an American Pakistani. We are just taking this on faith but you could be anyone.

Post #119 where you are asking me for conclusion again without a simple acknowledgement that the problem of British Pakistanis lagging in HDI metrics does exist.
Even when acknowledging some good points - all made by British Pakistani posters (you still haven't given any insights whatsoever) - this whole post is again just a long rant about posters rather than actually discussing whatever it is you presumably want to discuss.

Post #120 Where you say you do not agree that the problem exists despite all the data proof, yet are asking me to provide conclusion for something that you do not believe exists despite proof in your face. If this is not rampant denial, then what is?
No I do not agree.

I am naturally justified in asking you to accept that British Pakistanis lag in HDI metrics (not just financially) behind Pakistani Americans and Afghan Americans due to two reasons - #1, data is proof, #2 you asked me to do something (provided conclusion) so I'm within my rights to ask you to confirm the existence of the problem.

I posted the same tables for YOU because you not only repeatedly denied the problem but conveniently skirted my question for WHY you deny the problem despite data proof. Any answer for this?
 
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