'Bumrah has less threatening performances than Shaheen in all formats' : Aaqib Javed

[giri26]

On the Shaheen and Bumrah comparison, this is pointless. Neither have played 30 tests and bumrah is on the decline.

So Shaheen staying fit he will easily surpass bumrah - it’s not rocket science it’s just simple logic

What's with this Bumrah on the decline nonsense. He was crucial in England and picked 18 wickets in a competitive Indian bowling attack which had Siraj & Shami also picking up wickets. We are not a one bowler team like Pakistan. Shaheen might pick up more wickets and also be bowled to the ground by Pakistan team management as none of the other bowlers look anywhere close to threatening when playing overseas. India have a good all round attack and we don't have to bowl Bumrah too much. India uses Bumrah in short spells like the Oval game where he bowled those 5-6 overs in the middle to break the back of England batting.

Yeah his ODI record has decline over the last 2 years but his Test bowling hasn't been that bad. India have competent 4 man pace attack at most times, so he cannot be picking 5 wickets every time he plays. He has 8 fifers in 29 Tests which is very good with 3 of them coming in last 12 months. Shaheen in 24 Tests has 4 which is 4 less than Bumrah in just 5 less Tests.

 

[giri26]

I feel Shaheen will have a longer career than Bumrah due to the fact Bumrah has already obtained a pretty serious injury which has affected his bowling. Shaheen's action is just less injury prone than Bumrah's.

If I had to bet I would bet on Shaheen lasting longer than Bumrah.

Lots of assumptions here. History says that you would have better returns betting on anyone but a Pakistan pacer for about 3 decades now. So no it is not obvious that Shaheen will overtake or outlast Bumrah in Tests.

 

[daytrader]

What's with this Bumrah on the decline nonsense. He was crucial in England and picked 18 wickets in a competitive Indian bowling attack which had Siraj & Shami also picking up wickets. We are not a one bowler team like Pakistan. Shaheen might pick up more wickets and also be bowled to the ground by Pakistan team management as none of the other bowlers look anywhere close to threatening when playing overseas. India have a good all round attack and we don't have to bowl Bumrah too much. India uses Bumrah in short spells like the Oval game where he bowled those 5-6 overs in the middle to break the back of England batting.

Yeah his ODI record has decline over the last 2 years but his Test bowling hasn't been that bad. India have competent 4 man pace attack at most times, so he cannot be picking 5 wickets every time he plays. He has 8 fifers in 29 Tests which is very good with 3 of them coming in last 12 months. Shaheen in 24 Tests has 4 which is 4 less than Bumrah in just 5 less Tests.

I guess that's the point Aaqib is trying to make. India is not as reliant on Bumrah as Pakistan is on Shaheen. Bumrah is replaceable in the Indian XI, Shaheen isn't in the Pakistani XI

 

[Hextro]

Lots of assumptions here. History says that you would have better returns betting on anyone but a Pakistan pacer for about 3 decades now. So no it is not obvious that Shaheen will overtake or outlast Bumrah in Tests.

Younger and less injury prone > older and injury prone. Shaheen is already almost half way to 200 test wickets and is 2 years younger than Bumrah's test debut age.

But but history.....

History also tells us that Pakistan has always had/produced better fast bowlers than India.

 

[Local.Dada]

Younger and less injury prone > older and injury prone. Shaheen is already almost half way to 200 test wickets and is 2 years younger than Bumrah's test debut age.

But but history.....

History also tells us that Pakistan has always had/produced better fast bowlers than India.

Then you have a confused take of history. Since the 2 W’s not a single Pakistani fast bowler has a long career? Should I make you count?

While on the other hand, Indian bowling unit we have has been groomed, nurtured,developed over a period of time.

You keep going between having a proper argument to these kind of chest thumping statements.

I would argue that Pak never had a pace bowling pack like India has currently. I remember when the 2 W’s used to be in the side, there were always Ata-Ur-Rehman or some other medium pacer that used to get bashed by likes of Sachin,Jayasuriya etc.

By the time Shoaib became the spearhead the team had guys like Sami, Rana etc.

Pakistan never had this kind of a potent 5-6 fast bowling pool with 2 world class spinners within the unit that was shaking up teams everywhere.

As I said wake up and smell the coffee this isn’t 1996 when your argument might have had legs.

 

[TheSultan]

Then you have a confused take of history. Since the 2 W’s not a single Pakistani fast bowler has a long career? Should I make you count?

While on the other hand, Indian bowling unit we have has been groomed, nurtured,developed over a period of time.

You keep going between having a proper argument to these kind of chest thumping statements.

I would argue that Pak never had a pace bowling pack like India has currently. I remember when the 2 W’s used to be in the side, there were always Ata-Ur-Rehman or some other medium pacer that used to get bashed by likes of Sachin,Jayasuriya etc.

By the time Shoaib became the spearhead the team had guys like Sami, Rana etc.

Pakistan never had this kind of a potent 5-6 fast bowling pool with 2 world class spinners within the unit that was shaking up teams everywhere.

As I said wake up and smell the coffee this isn’t 1996 when your argument might have had legs.

I’ve said this before and will say it again. You are using Ishant Sharma as an example of an Indian bowler who has lasted. A mediocre bowler because you were lacking alternatives. In the first 10 years of Ishant’s career his only claim to fame was a wicketless spell you ponting where hit ponting on the thigh a couple of times!

Shami has lasted too.

So you are using these two examples?

What about the rest who fizzled out after a couple of seasons and got slower and slower as time went on?

Irfan Pathan
Munaf
RP Singh
Bhuvnesh Kumar
That other Kumar who used to swing the new ball
Balaji
Sreesanth
Yadav (not gone anywhere)
Aaron (not gone anywhere)
Lost count of all the others

India have had more failures than others over the last 15-20 years

And you are using one abberation (Shami) and one mediocre persistent selection (Ishant) to point out your bowler’s longevity? That is reaching

 

[TheSultan]

I would argue that Pak never had a pace bowling pack like India has currently. I remember when the 2 W’s used to be in the side, there were always Ata-Ur-Rehman or some other medium pacer that used to get bashed by likes of Sachin,Jayasuriya etc.

By the time Shoaib became the spearhead the team had guys like Sami, Rana etc.

India has already been disqualified from the initial point I’ve quoted because they are not a “pace bowling pack”. They are a “seam up bowling unit”.

Produce one consistent pace bowler then talk.

Forget ata ur rehman we had Zahid too, Mohammad Akram, shahid nazir, azhar, Razzak and dozens waiting in the wings. They just never got a look in and rightly so.

 

[Local.Dada]

I’ve said this before and will say it again. You are using Ishant Sharma as an example of an Indian bowler who has lasted. A mediocre bowler because you were lacking alternatives. In the first 10 years of Ishant’s career his only claim to fame was a wicketless spell you ponting where hit ponting on the thigh a couple of times!

Shami has lasted too.

So you are using these two examples?

What about the rest who fizzled out after a couple of seasons and got slower and slower as time went on?

Irfan Pathan
Munaf
RP Singh
Bhuvnesh Kumar
That other Kumar who used to swing the new ball
Balaji
Sreesanth
Yadav (not gone anywhere)
Aaron (not gone anywhere)
Lost count of all the others

India have had more failures than others over the last 15-20 years

And you are using one abberation (Shami) and one mediocre persistent selection (Ishant) to point out your bowler’s longevity? That is reaching

Yadav has over 150 test and more than 100 odi wickets, Shami has nearly 150 ODIs and more than 200 test wickets, Bumrah over 100 odi and test wickets in both formats, Ishant (I agree lasted more than he should have) has 300+ test wickets and over 100+ odi wickets.

Then we have had mercurial bowlers like Bhuvi, Thakur, Siraj etc coming in from no where to contribute in wins.


The cherry on top is we have the no.1 and no.2 spinner in the world

This is almost an embarrassment of riches lol.

The great WI attack didn’t have world class spinners

The great Aussie attack might have not had such a long pool like India has.

Overall there is a case for collective pace+ spin this Indian bowling being one of the g.o.a.t in terms of pereformances. Greatest in Asia without a doubt.

India is ranked No.1 in T20’s, no.2 in tests and surprisingly no.4 in ODIs a format where we are the king but could be a small ratings matter that will be sorted out next series. Ironic that Indian fans are trying hard to explain why we have a good team and bowling unit

 

[Local.Dada]

India has already been disqualified from the initial point I’ve quoted because they are not a “pace bowling pack”. They are a “seam up bowling unit”.

Produce one consistent pace bowler then talk.

Forget ata ur rehman we had Zahid too, Mohammad Akram, shahid nazir, azhar, Razzak and dozens waiting in the wings. They just never got a look in and rightly so.

You can say it in your head whichever way you want my brother, doesn’t change the fact that what we have right now will be rated as one of the most potent bowling unit (pace + spin) in the history of the game.

When was the last time a SC team starts favorite in every country it plays in?

I have a feeling you already know this but just clutching at straws here.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

You can say it in your head whichever way you want my brother, doesn’t change the fact that what we have right now will be rated as one of the most potent bowling unit (pace + spin) in the history of the game.

When was the last time a SC team starts favorite in every country it plays in?

I have a feeling you already know this but just clutching at straws here.

Starting as a favorite and then ending the tournament/series as a winner are two different things. NZ, SA tour, WT20, CT, WC 2019 are few examples.

 

[Hextro]

Then you have a confused take of history. Since the 2 W’s not a single Pakistani fast bowler has a long career? Should I make you count?

While on the other hand, Indian bowling unit we have has been groomed, nurtured,developed over a period of time.

You keep going between having a proper argument to these kind of chest thumping statements.

I would argue that Pak never had a pace bowling pack like India has currently. I remember when the 2 W’s used to be in the side, there were always Ata-Ur-Rehman or some other medium pacer that used to get bashed by likes of Sachin,Jayasuriya etc.

By the time Shoaib became the spearhead the team had guys like Sami, Rana etc.

Pakistan never had this kind of a potent 5-6 fast bowling pool with 2 world class spinners within the unit that was shaking up teams everywhere.

As I said wake up and smell the coffee this isn’t 1996 when your argument might have had legs.

After the two Ws Shoaib and Gul played 46 and 47 test matches respectively. Pakistan invested a lot into Junaid and Wahab but both of them were clearly not good enough. After that Pakistan had a streak of bad luck with Shabbir, Amir, and Asif getting banned, each of those three had the potential to take 300 test wickets. And now in the modern era, we have the likes of Hasan, Shaheen, and Naseem. Shaheen will definitely take over 300 test wickets by the end of his career. Bumrah is unlikely to take over 250 test wickets.

Now let me address your second point. The only reason the likes of Zaheer and Ishant have over 200 test wickets is because of India's low fast bowling standards. Ishant got his first 200 test wickets at an average of 36.90, Pakistan and most other teams wouldn't have let a bowler as average as Ishant play enough matches to reach 100 test wickets let alone 200, but that's not the case with India. Pakistan dropped the likes of Wahab and Gul because they averaged around 32-34 whereas India let guys like Zaheer and Ishant get 200 test wickets despite them having an average of over 36 before achieving that landmark, if it was up to India they would've kept Wahab and Gul. India will stick with mediocre bowlers until it has no other option other than to drop them.

Same story with Zaheer. Zaheer had an average of 34.28 when he reached 200 test wickets. Note that I'm including lower-ranked teams such as Zimbabwe and Bangladesh in Zaheer and Ishant's stats, if I remove those teams from their stats their situation gets even direr.

I haven't even mentioned India's failed experiments like Nehra, Pathan, Prasad, Sreesanth, Agarkar, etc.

"I would argue that Pak never had a pace bowling pack like India has currently."

Pakistan's peak bowling lineup in tests:

During the West Indes test tour of Pakistan in 1997 Pakistan had a bowling lineup of Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, and Mushtaq Ahmed bowing in tandem.

Pakistan's peak bowling lineup in ODIs:

During the 2002 Sharjah Cup Pakistan had a bowling lineup of Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, Saqlain Mushtaq, Abdul Razzaq, and Shahid Afridi bowling in tandem.

 

[Local.Dada]

After the two Ws Shoaib and Gul played 46 and 47 test matches respectively. Pakistan invested a lot into Junaid and Wahab but both of them were clearly not good enough. After that Pakistan had a streak of bad luck with Shabbir, Amir, and Asif getting banned, each of those three had the potential to take 300 test wickets. And now in the modern era, we have the likes of Hasan, Shaheen, and Naseem. Shaheen will definitely take over 300 test wickets by the end of his career. Bumrah is unlikely to take over 250 test wickets.

Now let me address your second point. The only reason the likes of Zaheer and Ishant have over 200 test wickets is because of India's low fast bowling standards. Ishant got his first 200 test wickets at an average of 36.90, Pakistan and most other teams wouldn't have let a bowler as average as Ishant play enough matches to reach 100 test wickets let alone 200, but that's not the case with India. Pakistan dropped the likes of Wahab and Gul because they averaged around 32-34 whereas India let guys like Zaheer and Ishant get 200 test wickets despite them having an average of over 36 before achieving that landmark, if it was up to India they would've kept Wahab and Gul. India will stick with mediocre bowlers until it has no other option other than to drop them.

Same story with Zaheer. Zaheer had an average of 34.28 when he reached 200 test wickets. Note that I'm including lower-ranked teams such as Zimbabwe and Bangladesh in Zaheer and Ishant's stats, if I remove those teams from their stats their situation gets even direr.

I haven't even mentioned India's failed experiments like Nehra, Pathan, Prasad, Sreesanth, Agarkar, etc.

"I would argue that Pak never had a pace bowling pack like India has currently."

Pakistan's peak bowling lineup in tests:

During the West Indes test tour of Pakistan in 1997 Pakistan had a bowling lineup of Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, and Mushtaq Ahmed bowing in tandem.

Pakistan's peak bowling lineup in ODIs:

During the 2002 Sharjah Cup Pakistan had a bowling lineup of Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, Saqlain Mushtaq, Abdul Razzaq, and Shahid Afridi bowling in tandem.

Sreeshanth has won 2 test matches in SA on his own. Pak has been whitewashed there for 2 decades.

Nehra has won a WC and was finalist in a wc with his bowling performance

Agarkar won a test match in Australia a feat not a lot of Pakistani bowlers have managed

Irfan Pathan was man of the match in Perth.

Zaheer, Sreeshanth. RP won us test series in England

Our spin bowlers have nearly 700 wickets between them and still can’t make the X1 because it is fully packed

Zak,Munaf and Nehra won us the WC

The current attack collectively is hailed as one of the G.o.a.t

Just because some names sound fancy In Your head you can’t throw them around

Indian bowlers have left Pakistan bowlers way behind since the 2000’s

 

[ravisurya]

After the two Ws Shoaib and Gul played 46 and 47 test matches respectively. Pakistan invested a lot into Junaid and Wahab but both of them were clearly not good enough. After that Pakistan had a streak of bad luck with Shabbir, Amir, and Asif getting banned, each of those three had the potential to take 300 test wickets. And now in the modern era, we have the likes of Hasan, Shaheen, and Naseem. Shaheen will definitely take over 300 test wickets by the end of his career. Bumrah is unlikely to take over 250 test wickets.

Now let me address your second point. The only reason the likes of Zaheer and Ishant have over 200 test wickets is because of India's low fast bowling standards. Ishant got his first 200 test wickets at an average of 36.90, Pakistan and most other teams wouldn't have let a bowler as average as Ishant play enough matches to reach 100 test wickets let alone 200, but that's not the case with India. Pakistan dropped the likes of Wahab and Gul because they averaged around 32-34 whereas India let guys like Zaheer and Ishant get 200 test wickets despite them having an average of over 36 before achieving that landmark, if it was up to India they would've kept Wahab and Gul. India will stick with mediocre bowlers until it has no other option other than to drop them.

Same story with Zaheer. Zaheer had an average of 34.28 when he reached 200 test wickets. Note that I'm including lower-ranked teams such as Zimbabwe and Bangladesh in Zaheer and Ishant's stats, if I remove those teams from their stats their situation gets even direr.

I haven't even mentioned India's failed experiments like Nehra, Pathan, Prasad, Sreesanth, Agarkar, etc.

"I would argue that Pak never had a pace bowling pack like India has currently."

Pakistan's peak bowling lineup in tests:

During the West Indes test tour of Pakistan in 1997 Pakistan had a bowling lineup of Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, and Mushtaq Ahmed bowing in tandem.

Pakistan's peak bowling lineup in ODIs:

During the 2002 Sharjah Cup Pakistan had a bowling lineup of Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, Saqlain Mushtaq, Abdul Razzaq, and Shahid Afridi bowling in tandem.

Mohd. Sami played 36 test matches to take a grand total of 85 wickets at an average of 52.

 

[ravisurya]

After the two Ws Shoaib and Gul played 46 and 47 test matches respectively. Pakistan invested a lot into Junaid and Wahab but both of them were clearly not good enough. After that Pakistan had a streak of bad luck with Shabbir, Amir, and Asif getting banned, each of those three had the potential to take 300 test wickets. And now in the modern era, we have the likes of Hasan, Shaheen, and Naseem. Shaheen will definitely take over 300 test wickets by the end of his career. Bumrah is unlikely to take over 250 test wickets.

Now let me address your second point. The only reason the likes of Zaheer and Ishant have over 200 test wickets is because of India's low fast bowling standards. Ishant got his first 200 test wickets at an average of 36.90, Pakistan and most other teams wouldn't have let a bowler as average as Ishant play enough matches to reach 100 test wickets let alone 200, but that's not the case with India. Pakistan dropped the likes of Wahab and Gul because they averaged around 32-34 whereas India let guys like Zaheer and Ishant get 200 test wickets despite them having an average of over 36 before achieving that landmark, if it was up to India they would've kept Wahab and Gul. India will stick with mediocre bowlers until it has no other option other than to drop them.

Same story with Zaheer. Zaheer had an average of 34.28 when he reached 200 test wickets. Note that I'm including lower-ranked teams such as Zimbabwe and Bangladesh in Zaheer and Ishant's stats, if I remove those teams from their stats their situation gets even direr.

I haven't even mentioned India's failed experiments like Nehra, Pathan, Prasad, Sreesanth, Agarkar, etc.

"I would argue that Pak never had a pace bowling pack like India has currently."

Pakistan's peak bowling lineup in tests:

During the West Indes test tour of Pakistan in 1997 Pakistan had a bowling lineup of Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, and Mushtaq Ahmed bowing in tandem.

Pakistan's peak bowling lineup in ODIs:

During the 2002 Sharjah Cup Pakistan had a bowling lineup of Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Shoaib Akhtar, Saqlain Mushtaq, Abdul Razzaq, and Shahid Afridi bowling in tandem.

Umar gul took 163 wickets at an average of 34.16

 

[Local.Dada]

Mohd. Sami played 36 test matches to take a grand total of 85 wickets at an average of 52.

That always seems to be a weird point on which the argument starts. Yes Sami was a quick bowler on the speed gun but never looked threatening. Same goes for Wahab.

Nehra has a greater body of work than these guys but somehow Pakistanis have made up their mind that Nehra can’t bowl.

Asif was good and had some great performers but so did Sreeshanth who won tests in SA and Eng and was a huge part in WT20 win but he is a spinner/ trundler but Asif had he not fixed would have been better than Anderson.

Now if that is the basis for arguments you are fighting against you can never win

Shoaib and Amir have been around since decades and have hardly played any games where as a guy like Bhuvi has had equally impact performances and is more reliable.

I think there is a bit of culture shock and denial seeing how Indian bowling has evolved. Only for a few though. There are plenty of articulate cricket fans over here who call it like they see it.

 

[Hextro]

Mohd. Sami played 36 test matches to take a grand total of 85 wickets at an average of 52.

I knew someone would bring up Sami. Pakistan played Sami because he could bowl 150kph quite consistently. Agarkar played 26 test matches for India at an average of 47.32 for no other reason than him being the only option available. Sami played alongside great bowlers such as Shoaib and Asif so his negative effect wasn't felt that much.

 

[Hextro]

Umar gul took 163 wickets at an average of 34.16

I mentioned that.

"Pakistan dropped the likes of Wahab and Gul because they averaged around 32-34"

 

[Local.Dada]

I knew someone would bring up Sami. Pakistan played Sami because he could bowl 150kph quite consistently. Agarkar played 26 test matches for India at an average of 47.32 for no other reason than him being the only option available. Sami played alongside great bowlers such as Shoaib and Asif so his negative effect wasn't felt that much.

Cherry picking Agarkar’s test stats I see

Agarkar has 288 odi wickets in 190 odd games

Akthar has 247 in 163

Doesn’t seem that off unless of course you count the hair style, badmaashi, daleri etc

 

[Hextro]

That always seems to be a weird point on which the argument starts. Yes Sami was a quick bowler on the speed gun but never looked threatening. Same goes for Wahab.

Nehra has a greater body of work than these guys but somehow Pakistanis have made up their mind that Nehra can’t bowl.

Asif was good and had some great performers but so did Sreeshanth who won tests in SA and Eng and was a huge part in WT20 win but he is a spinner/ trundler but Asif had he not fixed would have been better than Anderson.

Now if that is the basis for arguments you are fighting against you can never win

Shoaib and Amir have been around since decades and have hardly played any games where as a guy like Bhuvi has had equally impact performances and is more reliable.

I think there is a bit of culture shock and denial seeing how Indian bowling has evolved. Only for a few though. There are plenty of articulate cricket fans over here who call it like they see it.

Looks like you've completely forgotten about the topic of this thread and want to derail more than it already has been derailed.

 

[ravisurya]

Can someone post Shaheen Afridis stats without Bangladesh and Zimbabwe? Considering he took 25 out of his 95 test wickets against them at an average of 15~16.

 

[Hextro]

Cherry picking Agarkar’s test stats I see

Agarkar has 288 odi wickets in 190 odd games

Akthar has 247 in 163

Doesn’t seem that off unless of course you count the hair style, badmaashi, daleri etc

You can't be serious with this comment. There's being delusional and then there's being this.

If you want to discuss this open a Shoaib vs Agarkar thread.

 

[Local.Dada]

Looks like you've completely forgotten about the topic of this thread and want to derail more than it already has been derailed.

So when it is inconvenient for you the thread is being derailed but you can make provocative and generic inflammatory statements like Indians have never produced fast bowlers or India has an incompetent bowling unit etc.

I don’t think anyone denies that India has not had bowlers like the 2 W’s or Akthar even though had somewhat of a middling career despite the ability is unique in terms of cricket as we have only seen 2-3 160 k bowlers. Everyone can respect that:

When you make smarmy statements then the response will be some hard facts.

 

[Hextro]

So when it is inconvenient for you the thread is being derailed but you can make provocative and generic inflammatory statements like Indians have never produced fast bowlers or India has an incompetent bowling unit etc.

I don’t think anyone denies that India has not had bowlers like the 2 W’s or Akthar even though had somewhat of a middling career despite the ability is unique in terms of cricket as we have only seen 2-3 160 k bowlers. Everyone can respect that:

When you make smarmy statements then the response will be some hard facts.

India has always had a poor bowling attack. Even your own countrymen don't deny that fact.

"When you make smarmy statements then the response will be some hard facts."

What hard facts? You got offended because I replied to someone else that Shaheen is likely to have a longer career than Bumrah.

 

[Local.Dada]

India has always had a poor bowling attack. Even your own countrymen don't deny that fact.

"When you make smarmy statements then the response will be some hard facts."

What hard facts? You got offended because I replied to someone else that Shaheen is likely to have a longer career than Bumrah.

There is no conclusive proof that Shaheen can have a long career.


In Pakistan talent doesn’t always equal to long career. Case in point Akthar, Amir,Asif or any bowler who debuted since the days of 2w’s.

Also as I said india always had poor bowlers is a myth that has been busted in plenty of arguments here. Individually as I have said the 2w’s are better than any Indian fast bowler till date especially art of reverse swing etc which we were late to adapt.

However in terms of accomplishments as a collective bowling unit, India is far ahead.

We have more ICC trophies, more series wins in Wi, Aus, more test wins in SA, more ICC knockouts and more trailblazing wins than Pakistan. That couldn’t be accomplished without a competent bowling unit.

Pak having a couple of great bowlers doesn’t equal to India having a poor bowling attack. If that’s the case we have 3 spinners with more than 400+ test wickets and 5 fast bowlers with more than 200+ test wickets and more catching up as they are in the 150 wickets range.

Your argument comes from a place of a condescending tone, I have never downplayed the talent of any good Pakistani bowler. That’s the difference. Now let’s reset and see if we can start on a better note.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

India has always had a poor bowling attack. Even your own countrymen don't deny that fact.

"When you make smarmy statements then the response will be some hard facts."

What hard facts? You got offended because I replied to someone else that Shaheen is likely to have a longer career than Bumrah.

If Bumrah keeps wasting his energy in useless Pyjama League matches his career will go down just like Kohli's. I have been saying this for the past 3-4 years that both Bumrah and Kohli should skip IPL and concentrate on internationals otherwise their careers will end prematurely. Look at what is happening with Kohli now.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

There is no conclusive proof that Shaheen can have a long career.


In Pakistan talent doesn’t always equal to long career. Case in point Akthar, Amir,Asif or any bowler who debuted since the days of 2w’s.

Also as I said india always had poor bowlers is a myth that has been busted in plenty of arguments here. Individually as I have said the 2w’s are better than any Indian fast bowler till date especially art of reverse swing etc which we were late to adapt.

However in terms of accomplishments as a collective bowling unit, India is far ahead.

We have more ICC trophies, more series wins in Wi, Aus, more test wins in SA, more ICC knockouts and more trailblazing wins than Pakistan. That couldn’t be accomplished without a competent bowling unit.

Pak having a couple of great bowlers doesn’t equal to India having a poor bowling attack. If that’s the case we have 3 spinners with more than 400+ test wickets and 5 fast bowlers with more than 200+ test wickets and more catching up as they are in the 150 wickets range.

Your argument comes from a place of a condescending tone, I have never downplayed the talent of any good Pakistani bowler. That’s the difference. Now let’s reset and see if we can start on a better note.

And there is no conclusive proof that he will have a short career either.

 

[Firebat]

Just a reminder that the thread is about Shaheen and Bumrah.

There are plenty of other threads debating the fast bowling history of Pakistan and India.

 

[Hextro]

There is no conclusive proof that Shaheen can have a long career.


In Pakistan talent doesn’t always equal to long career. Case in point Akthar, Amir,Asif or any bowler who debuted since the days of 2w’s.

Also as I said india always had poor bowlers is a myth that has been busted in plenty of arguments here. Individually as I have said the 2w’s are better than any Indian fast bowler till date especially art of reverse swing etc which we were late to adapt.

However in terms of accomplishments as a collective bowling unit, India is far ahead.

We have more ICC trophies, more series wins in Wi, Aus, more test wins in SA, more ICC knockouts and more trailblazing wins than Pakistan. That couldn’t be accomplished without a competent bowling unit.

Pak having a couple of great bowlers doesn’t equal to India having a poor bowling attack. If that’s the case we have 3 spinners with more than 400+ test wickets and 5 fast bowlers with more than 200+ test wickets and more catching up as they are in the 150 wickets range.

Your argument comes from a place of a condescending tone, I have never downplayed the talent of any good Pakistani bowler. That’s the difference. Now let’s reset and see if we can start on a better note.

"There is no conclusive proof that Shaheen can have a long career."

There is no conclusive proof that Bumrah can have a long career.

Almost every Indian bowler averages between 30 to 50. Only a handful average below 30.

 

[Hextro]

"There is no conclusive proof that Shaheen can have a long career."

There is no conclusive proof that Bumrah can have a long career.

Almost every Indian bowler averages between 30 to 50. Only a handful average below 30.

Almost every Indian fast bowler*

 

[TheSultan]

Almost every Indian fast bowler*

Seam up bowler you mean?

 

[Local.Dada]

"There is no conclusive proof that Shaheen can have a long career."

There is no conclusive proof that Bumrah can have a long career.

Almost every Indian bowler averages between 30 to 50. Only a handful average below 30.

Bumrah already has a great career.

Topping charts in ICC and winning meaningful series not just 1-2 good spells. Yes will he get to the 300-400 wickets mark needs to be seen.

Shaheen has shown glimpses of talent but hardly has done anything to be even close to Bumrah.

He has in fact a lesser upside than Hassan Ali on career returns so far.

Bashing hapless C teams or minnows don’t count.

I know the WT20 India game will be the sole template for a while but we saw the CT2017 benchmark die down very fast too so I would keep my fingers crossed for your sake.

Good luck to Shaheen, as a cricket fan I enjoy him.

Not even in the same stratosphere as any current Indian bowler from out test line up.

A good comparison will be with a young Siraj who has already made a mark in tests.

 

[Local.Dada]

Here are the current bowlers that will get into Indian side

Shaheen in ODIs and t20’s and back up in tests
Hassan Ali in ODIs
Shadab in T20
Rauf in T20
Imad maybe back up player in T20

I have no clue on the rest of the names because they seem to be in and out

Ashwin and Jadeja: is there even the slightest debate they won’t make it to Pakistan test squad? Jadeja will also walk into the Pakistan odi squad
Bumrah in all 3 formats
Shami in tests and ODIs
Umesh in tests

I am 100% confident that even with the spinners Pak played Umesh/Shami would have blown away Aussie line up on flat sc wickets 9/10 times.

Chahal will walk into the test squad and LOIs.
Kuldeep in ODIs and T20
Siraj as 3rd seamer in tests will walk into the Pak side.

Thakur in tests. Has the X factor that Faheem lacks. The guy won us tests in Eng and Aus and has a 7fr in SA. Underrated

And finally Hardik Pandya in LOIs . Is there any loi allrounder even remotely close to him in Pakistan? I would like to hear some names

I don’t want to bring any rookies because I don’t know their counterparts from Pakistan.

Only some bowlers from the Pakistan T20 bowling attack will make it to the Indian side.

 

[Hextro]

Bumrah already has a great career.

Topping charts in ICC and winning meaningful series not just 1-2 good spells. Yes will he get to the 300-400 wickets mark needs to be seen.

Shaheen has shown glimpses of talent but hardly has done anything to be even close to Bumrah.

He has in fact a lesser upside than Hassan Ali on career returns so far.

Bashing hapless C teams or minnows don’t count.

I know the WT20 India game will be the sole template for a while but we saw the CT2017 benchmark die down very fast too so I would keep my fingers crossed for your sake.

Good luck to Shaheen, as a cricket fan I enjoy him.

Not even in the same stratosphere as any current Indian bowler from out test line up.

A good comparison will be with a young Siraj who has already made a mark in tests.

Finally you've started talking about the topic at hand and stopped diverging.

Currently in tests Shaheen < Bumrah. Currently in ODIs Shaheen > Bumrah.

 

[Hextro]

Here are the current bowlers that will get into Indian side

Shaheen in ODIs and t20’s and back up in tests
Hassan Ali in ODIs
Shadab in T20
Rauf in T20
Imad maybe back up player in T20

I have no clue on the rest of the names because they seem to be in and out

Ashwin and Jadeja: is there even the slightest debate they won’t make it to Pakistan test squad? Jadeja will also walk into the Pakistan odi squad
Bumrah in all 3 formats
Shami in tests and ODIs
Umesh in tests

I am 100% confident that even with the spinners Pak played Umesh/Shami would have blown away Aussie line up on flat sc wickets 9/10 times.

Chahal will walk into the test squad and LOIs.
Kuldeep in ODIs and T20
Siraj as 3rd seamer in tests will walk into the Pak side.

Thakur in tests. Has the X factor that Faheem lacks. The guy won us tests in Eng and Aus and has a 7fr in SA. Underrated

And finally Hardik Pandya in LOIs . Is there any loi allrounder even remotely close to him in Pakistan? I would like to hear some names

I don’t want to bring any rookies because I don’t know their counterparts from Pakistan.

Only some bowlers from the Pakistan T20 bowling attack will make it to the Indian side.

This comment would be more relevant in this thread -

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...uld-walk-into-a-Pakistani-team-and-vice-versa

 

[Ab Fan]

Here are the current bowlers that will get into Indian side

Shaheen in ODIs and t20’s and back up in tests
Hassan Ali in ODIs
Shadab in T20
Rauf in T20
Imad maybe back up player in T20

I have no clue on the rest of the names because they seem to be in and out

Ashwin and Jadeja: is there even the slightest debate they won’t make it to Pakistan test squad? Jadeja will also walk into the Pakistan odi squad
Bumrah in all 3 formats
Shami in tests and ODIs
Umesh in tests

I am 100% confident that even with the spinners Pak played Umesh/Shami would have blown away Aussie line up on flat sc wickets 9/10 times.

Chahal will walk into the test squad and LOIs.
Kuldeep in ODIs and T20
Siraj as 3rd seamer in tests will walk into the Pak side.

Thakur in tests. Has the X factor that Faheem lacks. The guy won us tests in Eng and Aus and has a 7fr in SA. Underrated

And finally Hardik Pandya in LOIs . Is there any loi allrounder even remotely close to him in Pakistan? I would like to hear some names

I don’t want to bring any rookies because I don’t know their counterparts from Pakistan.

Only some bowlers from the Pakistan T20 bowling attack will make it to the Indian side.

Prasidh will walk into ODI and Test side too. He is a very good test bowler, just that India have a long list of quality pacers in tests like Bumrah, Shami, Siraj and Umesh so he doesn't get a debut.

 

[Hextro]

Prasidh will walk into ODI and Test side too. He is a very good test bowler, just that India have a long list of quality pacers in tests like Bumrah, Shami, Siraj and Umesh so he doesn't get a debut.

You're a veteran member of this forum you should know what the rules are by now.

I've been using this forum for 5 years now as just a reader and I can't believe I didn't notice how you guys go off topic every thread. Its shocking that I have to keep reminding you guys to not derail every thread.

 

[DRsohail]

Tests Bumrah better than Shaheen
Odi both are same I think but in death over bumrah wins
T20 Shaheen is better.
Overall Shaheen is young while Bumrah may have toycho his peak years.lets see how it goes.
Overall Bumrah wins but I believe Shaheen will get more odi and gets wickets when he retires.

 

[Marooned]

Bumrah already has a great career.

Topping charts in ICC and winning meaningful series not just 1-2 good spells. Yes will he get to the 300-400 wickets mark needs to be seen.

Shaheen has shown glimpses of talent but hardly has done anything to be even close to Bumrah.

He has in fact a lesser upside than Hassan Ali on career returns so far.

Bashing hapless C teams or minnows don’t count.

I know the WT20 India game will be the sole template for a while but we saw the CT2017 benchmark die down very fast too so I would keep my fingers crossed for your sake.

Good luck to Shaheen, as a cricket fan I enjoy him.

Not even in the same stratosphere as any current Indian bowler from out test line up.

A good comparison will be with a young Siraj who has already made a mark in tests.

Bumrah has been bashing hapless c teams and minnow teams no less while coming up short against the better lineups.

He bullied a weak Australia batting lineup in 2018 and averaged in teens but when faced with a strong lineup in 2020 he averaged close to 30 when both Cummins and Hazlewood averaged 20.

He has so far in his career only played against 2 test class batting lineups.

1. 20/21 vs Australia- He averaged close to 30 where Cummins and Hazlewood averaged 20.

2. New Zealand 2020- Averaged 32 ( All 3 of the NZ pacemen averaged in teens)

Far from stratospheric that.


Not to mention he is as untested as they come in subcontinent conditions.

He faced England in challenging conditions in Chennai and Anderson outbowled him in his own backyard.
5-fers against Lanka don't count (Even Naseem Shah has that).

I don't find much merit in winning series argument. It's disingenuous and frankly stupid. Winning series is a team effort and should not be conflated with individual performances.

 

[Sidilicious]

Tests Bumrah better than Shaheen
Odi both are same I think but in death over bumrah wins
T20 Shaheen is better.
Overall Shaheen is young while Bumrah may have toycho his peak years.lets see how it goes.
Overall Bumrah wins but I believe Shaheen will get more odi and gets wickets when he retires.

Shaheen is better in ODIs. Bumrah bas been poor in ODIs for two years.

T20 Bumrah is still better than Shaheen IMO

 

[Marooned]

Tests Bumrah better than Shaheen
Odi both are same I think but in death over bumrah wins
T20 Shaheen is better.
Overall Shaheen is young while Bumrah may have toycho his peak years.lets see how it goes.
Overall Bumrah wins but I believe Shaheen will get more odi and gets wickets when he retires.

In odis, Shaheen is clearly better.
Takes 2 wickets/game (insane ratio) compared to Bumrahs 1.6. Yes, Shaheen has played less games but he can maintain that ratio like Starc has.

Shaheen's new ball prowess gives him a significant edge over Bumrah in odis. Wickets upfront win you far more matches than the odd choking job in death.

Taking wickets is the only reliable way to stem the flow of runs. Take India's 2019 wc match vs England for example. Bumrah ended up with a respectable 1-44 in his 10 overs. England still went on to pile 337 and win.

If you knock off the top order instead, that will give your team a much higher chance to win and Bumrah is decidedly average with the new ball.

 

[DRsohail]

In odis, Shaheen is clearly better.
Takes 2 wickets/game (insane ratio) compared to Bumrahs 1.6. Yes, Shaheen has played less games but he can maintain that ratio like Starc has.

Shaheen's new ball prowess gives him a significant edge over Bumrah in odis. Wickets upfront win you far more matches than the odd choking job in death.

Taking wickets is the only reliable way to stem the flow of runs. Take India's 2019 wc match vs England for example. Bumrah ended up with a respectable 1-44 in his 10 overs. England still went on to pile 337 and win.

If you knock off the top order instead, that will give your team a much higher chance to win and Bumrah is decidedly average with the new ball.

You have a point but debatable, Bumrah also takes wicekts upfront, stats will show us the clear picture.

 

[Marooned]

You have a point but debatable, Bumrah also takes wicekts upfront, stats will show us the clear picture.

We can also debate whether water is wet or not for that matter.

 

[DRsohail]

We can also debate whether water is wet or not for that matter.

Hahha no , that's fact, I said stats will show.

 

[Marooned]

Hahha no , that's fact, I said stats will show.

It's a waste of time asking for stats for something so obvious.
Stats cannot conjure up something from nothing, they mostly confirm what we see.

Anyway, here you go.

Since Shaheen's debut.

Shaheen has 23 powerplay wickets in 26 innings ie. He strikes 88% of times.

Bumrah has 16 in 39 ie. He strikes 41% of times.

This only confirms the gulf. Satisfied?

 

[DRsohail]

It's a waste of time asking for stats for something so obvious.
Stats cannot conjure up something from nothing, they mostly confirm what we see.

Anyway, here you go.

Since Shaheen's debut.

Shaheen has 23 powerplay wickets in 26 innings ie. He strikes 88% of times.

Bumrah has 16 in 39 ie. He strikes 41% of times.

This only confirms the gulf. Satisfied?

That's the point agreed, thanks

 

[cricketjoshila]

Younger and less injury prone > older and injury prone. Shaheen is already almost half way to 200 test wickets and is 2 years younger than Bumrah's test debut age.

But but history.....

History also tells us that Pakistan has always had/produced better fast bowlers than India.

History tells us, no pakistani fast bowler has taken 200 test wickets after Waqar.

Younger but playing more games as pakistan has no other option.

Bumrah being rotated abd rested.

 

[Hextro]

History tells us, no pakistani fast bowler has taken 200 test wickets after Waqar.

Younger but playing more games as pakistan has no other option.

Bumrah being rotated abd rested.

Refer to my other comment if you want an answer.

 

[shamaan]

There is no conclusive proof that Shaheen can have a long career.


In Pakistan talent doesn’t always equal to long career. Case in point Akthar, Amir,Asif or any bowler who debuted since the days of 2w’s.

Also as I said india always had poor bowlers is a myth that has been busted in plenty of arguments here. Individually as I have said the 2w’s are better than any Indian fast bowler till date especially art of reverse swing etc which we were late to adapt.

However in terms of accomplishments as a collective bowling unit, India is far ahead.

We have more ICC trophies, more series wins in Wi, Aus, more test wins in SA, more ICC knockouts and more trailblazing wins than Pakistan. That couldn’t be accomplished without a competent bowling unit.

Pak having a couple of great bowlers doesn’t equal to India having a poor bowling attack. If that’s the case we have 3 spinners with more than 400+ test wickets and 5 fast bowlers with more than 200+ test wickets and more catching up as they are in the 150 wickets range.

Your argument comes from a place of a condescending tone, I have never downplayed the talent of any good Pakistani bowler. That’s the difference. Now let’s reset and see if we can start on a better note.

Shaheen is pataan they are built differently

 

[shamaan]

In tests Bumrah is ahead
In odis il take Shaheen
In t20s they both on par.

 

[TheSultan]

India is ranked No.1 in T20’s, no.2 in tests and surprisingly no.4 in ODIs a format where we are the king but could be a small ratings matter that will be sorted out next series. Ironic that Indian fans are trying hard to explain why we have a good team and bowling unit

Except -

you were dumped out in the group stage of the T20 World Cup.

You were beaten in the test championship final quite easily

And dumped out of the semi final of the World Cup.

You have the audacity to compare to the great West Indian and Aussies teams. Both of those teams were CLEARLY No1 in tests and each won at least 2 consecutive world cups.

There’s no point beating your chest when you choke. If that was important South Africa would have been considered a great team in the 1990s, 2000s and all the way up to 2015.

India are still yet to find a formula to cement themselves as no1 in anything.

 

[TheSultan]

Except -

you were dumped out in the group stage of the T20 World Cup.

You were beaten in the test championship final quite easily

And dumped out of the semi final of the World Cup.

You have the audacity to compare to the great West Indian and Aussies teams. Both of those teams were CLEARLY No1 in tests and each won at least 2 consecutive world cups.

There’s no point beating your chest when you choke. If that was important South Africa would have been considered a great team in the 1990s, 2000s and all the way up to 2015.

India are still yet to find a formula to cement themselves as no1 in anything.

Add to that you were whitewashed in tests and ODIs the last time you toured NZ and you are yet to beat England in England.

What is there to shout about. Yes you beat Australia in 2020 and I give them credit for that but it was not because of the bowling attack - it was because the aussie bowlers lost their nerve in the last two tests against your BATTING, not bowling.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Except -

you were dumped out in the group stage of the T20 World Cup.

You were beaten in the test championship final quite easily

And dumped out of the semi final of the World Cup.

You have the audacity to compare to the great West Indian and Aussies teams. Both of those teams were CLEARLY No1 in tests and each won at least 2 consecutive world cups.

There’s no point beating your chest when you choke. If that was important South Africa would have been considered a great team in the 1990s, 2000s and all the way up to 2015.

India are still yet to find a formula to cement themselves as no1 in anything.

1. You didn't even reach icc test championship final.

2. When was the last time pakistanis played the WC semis?

India were the number 1 test side for many months. Pakistan was not.

South Africa was one of the best teams of 1990s and 2000s.

India has reached and stayed at no.1 in many things. Pakistan may try.

 

[Local.Dada]

It's a waste of time asking for stats for something so obvious.
Stats cannot conjure up something from nothing, they mostly confirm what we see.

Anyway, here you go.

Since Shaheen's debut.

Shaheen has 23 powerplay wickets in 26 innings ie. He strikes 88% of times.

Bumrah has 16 in 39 ie. He strikes 41% of times.

This only confirms the gulf. Satisfied?

Only reason where I rate Shaheen ahead of Bumrah is ability to pick up wickets with the new white ball in ODIs.

Even in the India game Hardik Pandya got hold of him at the death if I remember or at least his 2nd spells even in T20 lack intensity.

You think a guy like Wade would have the audacity to play those scoops against Bumrah the best death bowler in the world? Don’t think so.

Shaheen has raw pace initially and insane skills. So the new Cherry gets shape and swings at high pace which to a new batsman is a nightmare. That’s his amazing skill. He doesn’t seem to have plan B apart from bowling as fast as he can with that one stock ball which to an experienced guy like Wade or for a lot of death batsman becomes predictable.

Sure in 3-4 years time Shaheen might very well be ahead, right now it’s like Babar Azam vs Kohli comparison from 2 years ago.

 

[TheSultan]

1. You didn't even reach icc test championship final.

2. When was the last time pakistanis played the WC semis?

India were the number 1 test side for many months. Pakistan was not.

South Africa was one of the best teams of 1990s and 2000s.

India has reached and stayed at no.1 in many things. Pakistan may try.

Except, I’m not beating my chest about the Pakistan team. You guys are talking about your team as ATGs. Get it. If you don’t - go and have a rethink and come back with a less childish response

 

[TheSultan]

Only reason where I rate Shaheen ahead of Bumrah is ability to pick up wickets with the new white ball in ODIs.

Even in the India game Hardik Pandya got hold of him at the death if I remember or at least his 2nd spells even in T20 lack intensity.

You think a guy like Wade would have the audacity to play those scoops against Bumrah the best death bowler in the world? Don’t think so.

Shaheen has raw pace initially and insane skills. So the new Cherry gets shape and swings at high pace which to a new batsman is a nightmare. That’s his amazing skill. He doesn’t seem to have plan B apart from bowling as fast as he can with that one stock ball which to an experienced guy like Wade or for a lot of death batsman becomes predictable.

Sure in 3-4 years time Shaheen might very well be ahead, right now it’s like Babar Azam vs Kohli comparison from 2 years ago.

Pandya got hold of him? When? When he was in agony rubbing his shoulder?

The thing with the Wade situation, it was a semi final and anything’s possible. We would never know what would happen to bumrah cos he failed to get india anywhere close to a semi final in that tournament. Levels

 

[Marooned]

Only reason where I rate Shaheen ahead of Bumrah is ability to pick up wickets with the new white ball in ODIs.

Even in the India game Hardik Pandya got hold of him at the death if I remember or at least his 2nd spells even in T20 lack intensity.

You think a guy like Wade would have the audacity to play those scoops against Bumrah the best death bowler in the world? Don’t think so.

Shaheen has raw pace initially and insane skills. So the new Cherry gets shape and swings at high pace which to a new batsman is a nightmare. That’s his amazing skill. He doesn’t seem to have plan B apart from bowling as fast as he can with that one stock ball which to an experienced guy like Wade or for a lot of death batsman becomes predictable.

Sure in 3-4 years time Shaheen might very well be ahead, right now it’s like Babar Azam vs Kohli comparison from 2 years ago.

Let alone Wade, Pat Cummins dispatched Bumrah for 4 sixes in an over at death and we are talking about a tail ender here.

 

[Mesozoic]

Younger and less injury prone > older and injury prone. Shaheen is already almost half way to 200 test wickets and is 2 years younger than Bumrah's test debut age.

But but history.....

History also tells us that Pakistan has always had/produced better fast bowlers than India.

What a weird logic lol.

So just because Shaheen is "young and less injury prone", he's better than Bumrah in all formats. Talk about desperation.

And your last sentence was true until the late 90s.its 2022. Wake up. I know it's tough to accept that but you got to swallow it. Indian fast bowling has left yours in the dust. That's the harsh truth.

 

[Hextro]

What a weird logic lol.

So just because Shaheen is "young and less injury prone", he's better than Bumrah in all formats. Talk about desperation.

And your last sentence was true until the late 90s.its 2022. Wake up. I know it's tough to accept that but you got to swallow it. Indian fast bowling has left yours in the dust. That's the harsh truth.

I was talking about longevity...

Atleast try to understand my comments before replying.

 

[Local.Dada]

Let alone Wade, Pat Cummins dispatched Bumrah for 4 sixes in an over at death and we are talking about a tail ender here.

Good to see you keep a tab on obscure IPL games. I can’t tell you what happened last game.

Wade wouldn’t have lasted doing that against Bumrah because Bumrah has a plan and method to his bowling which is why he is so highly rated. He is not just a one dimensional bowler.

Anyway Shaheen has been tonked around by other teams as well at the death. Has a long way to go.

I have already said Bumrah hasn’t been that effective with the new ball in LOIs.

Maybe you are seeing this as point scoring debate and emotions while I am basing this on the actual cricketing logic.

Shaheen has a long way to go before he can catch up to Bumrah.

Can he? sure.

Will he? needs to be seen.

Is he? No way lol.

Anything more is what ifs at this point that’s about it.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Good to see you keep a tab on obscure IPL games. I can’t tell you what happened last game.

Wade wouldn’t have lasted doing that against Bumrah because Bumrah has a plan and method to his bowling which is why he is so highly rated. He is not just a one dimensional bowler.

Anyway Shaheen has been tonked around by other teams as well at the death. Has a long way to go.

I have already said Bumrah hasn’t been that effective with the new ball in LOIs.

Maybe you are seeing this as point scoring debate and emotions while I am basing this on the actual cricketing logic.

Shaheen has a long way to go before he can catch up to Bumrah.

Can he? sure.

Will he? needs to be seen.

Is he? No way lol.

Anything more is what ifs at this point that’s about it.

Yes there is an age gap of 6 years and it takes time to reach there. Other than that there is hardly any gap and it is not as long as you are trying to show here. An average of 25 in tests, 23 in ODIs and 24 in T20s for someone who is just starting out his international cricket isn't bad.

Regarding Bumrah having a plan and method to his bowling. All his plans and methods have failed so far when it comes to knockouts or finals of big ICC tournaments.

 

[Marooned]

Good to see you keep a tab on obscure IPL games. I can’t tell you what happened last game.

Wade wouldn’t have lasted doing that against Bumrah because Bumrah has a plan and method to his bowling which is why he is so highly rated. He is not just a one dimensional bowler.

Anyway Shaheen has been tonked around by other teams as well at the death. Has a long way to go.

I have already said Bumrah hasn’t been that effective with the new ball in LOIs.

Maybe you are seeing this as point scoring debate and emotions while I am basing this on the actual cricketing logic.

Shaheen has a long way to go before he can catch up to Bumrah.

Can he? sure.

Will he? needs to be seen.

Is he? No way lol.

Anything more is what ifs at this point that’s about it.

I'm not seeing this as point scoring, your arguments just have very little substance.

You asked if Wade could've done the same against Bumrah. Well he has been smashed worse that too by a tail ender so there's that. The plan and the method didn't seem to work did it?

Bumrah too has been tonked around by others too... with costly consequences so let's not go there.


Shaheen absolutely doesn't have any way to go to catch upto Bumrah as far as LOIs are concerned.
He is significantly better in both the white ball formats.

Bumrah is better in tests for now, I didn't claim otherwise either.

 

[CrIc_Mystique]

One set of fans are in massive denial as they feel their position as the land of the 'phaast bowling' is being asked questions, not realizing that nothing lasts for ever - for eg Windies, no one has a monopoly on the whole 'phaast pace is pace yaar' business. It wont be long before we have outstanding quicks, its going to be sooner rather than later, watch out world.
The other set of fans are massively overating and over hyping their own bowling attack, no doubt an all condition versatile attack who can win anywhere/most places but results on ground are fantastic but not earth shattering. couple of near misses are the WTC finals, CT 2018, WC 2019 - no wins in NZ & series win in SA(i guess the last two hurdles will be shot down pretty soon)

 

[Usman Chadda]

Good to see you keep a tab on obscure IPL games. I can’t tell you what happened last game.

Wade wouldn’t have lasted doing that against Bumrah because Bumrah has a plan and method to his bowling which is why he is so highly rated. He is not just a one dimensional bowler.

Anyway Shaheen has been tonked around by other teams as well at the death. Has a long way to go.

I have already said Bumrah hasn’t been that effective with the new ball in LOIs.

Maybe you are seeing this as point scoring debate and emotions while I am basing this on the actual cricketing logic.

Shaheen has a long way to go before he can catch up to Bumrah.

Can he? sure.

Will he? needs to be seen.

Is he? No way lol.

Anything more is what ifs at this point that’s about it.

Shaheen is a much better white ball bowler than Bumrah, just as Bumrah is much better in Test cricket. Bumrah is a very average LOI bowler, he has gone missing in too many games for India to be considered a match-winner in that format.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Shaheen is a much better white ball bowler than Bumrah, just as Bumrah is much better in Test cricket. Bumrah is a very average LOI bowler, he has gone missing in too many games for India to be considered a match-winner in that format.

Then why are his stats good?

 

[Hextro]

Then why are his stats good?

Are you talking about Bumrah's ODI stats? His ODI stats aren't good they're decent/average.

 

[giri26]

Younger and less injury prone > older and injury prone. Shaheen is already almost half way to 200 test wickets and is 2 years younger than Bumrah's test debut age.

But but history.....

History also tells us that Pakistan has always had/produced better fast bowlers than India.

Younger does not mean fitter. Never heard such a theory in my life. History tells us Pakistan since Waqar has produced better bowlers for a short period who disappeared only for another short timer to appear. The reason for such inconsistent 2 decades for Pakistan in all forms of the game.

 

[Hextro]

Younger does not mean fitter. Never heard such a theory in my life. History tells us Pakistan since Waqar has produced better bowlers for a short period who disappeared only for another short timer to appear. The reason for such inconsistent 2 decades for Pakistan in all forms of the game.

Younger means Shaheen has more years left in him compared to Bumrah obviously.

Shaheen already has almost 100 test wickets and he's just getting started. You need not worry about the longevity of Shaheen's career.

I love the fact you ignored the portion of my comment that talks about Bumrah's history with injuries... convenient.

 

[giri26]

Younger means Shaheen has more years left in him compared to Bumrah obviously.

Shaheen already has almost 100 test wickets and he's just getting started. You need not worry about the longevity of Shaheen's career.

I love the fact you ignored the portion of my comment that talks about Bumrah's history with injuries... convenient.

Every fast bowler goes through injury. All your greats have gone through such phase. Very rarely we see a fast bowler who goes through an entire career without even a single injury. We only have to wait and see who will have a better career but again just based on initial phase of both of their careers I will not make such assumptions. Good start is good and both have had that, how they carry on is important. At this point just based on few performances here and there I will not say Shaheen is better than Bumrah or even say that Shaheen will have better career. There isn't an overwhelming evidence of that yet. When he gets to 150 Test wickets we can take a look at their careers. Let him play a few Tests in Australia, SA and England.

I am not worried about longevity of Shaheen's career nor do I care about the same, it is Pakistan fans who need to considering the recent history.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Shaheen is a much better white ball bowler than Bumrah, just as Bumrah is much better in Test cricket. Bumrah is a very average LOI bowler, he has gone missing in too many games for India to be considered a match-winner in that format.

The more he plays test cricket in SENA conditions, the more he will improve. Just look at his county stint so far. And don't forget he is just a 22 year old baby in international cricket and he is currently far away from his peak.

 

[Hextro]

Every fast bowler goes through injury. All your greats have gone through such phase. Very rarely we see a fast bowler who goes through an entire career without even a single injury. We only have to wait and see who will have a better career but again just based on initial phase of both of their careers I will not make such assumptions. Good start is good and both have had that, how they carry on is important. At this point just based on few performances here and there I will not say Shaheen is better than Bumrah or even say that Shaheen will have better career. There isn't an overwhelming evidence of that yet. When he gets to 150 Test wickets we can take a look at their careers. Let him play a few Tests in Australia, SA and England.

I am not worried about longevity of Shaheen's career nor do I care about the same, it is Pakistan fans who need to considering the recent history.

You set the benchmark at 150 test wickets for Shaheen despite knowing that Bumrah himself hasn't reached 150 test wickets. Absolutely brilliant.

Stats will shed more light on my comments regarding Bumrah's injury.

Bumrah pre-injury in ODIs:

Average - 21.88, Economy - 4.49

Bumrah post-injury in ODIs:

Average - 55.44, Economy - 5.57

Bumrah pre-injury in Tests:

Average - 19.24, Strike Rate - 43.7

Bumrah post-injury in Tests:

Average - 24.26, Strike Rate - 54.7

Bumrah has clearly struggled post-injury, especially in LOIs. It's pretty clear for everyone to see and that's why I think his injury is relevant to this topic.

 

[TheSultan]

What I don’t understand from the Indian posters is they are already talking about Bumrah as a great and Shaheen a newbie who needs to prove himself. However, there is not much between the number of games they’ve played.

Bumrah is almost as much a baby in international experience as Shaheen except Shaheen is much younger.

Bumrah also has baby pace too

 

[Hextro]

What I don’t understand from the Indian posters is they are already talking about Bumrah as a great and Shaheen a newbie who needs to prove himself. However, there is not much between the number of games they’ve played.

Bumrah is almost as much a baby in international experience as Shaheen except Shaheen is much younger.

Bumrah also has baby pace too

The only reason Shaheen would be considered newbie is because of the age difference. They both debuted the same year in test cricket. Shaheen almost has the same amount of experience in international cricket as Bumrah.

 

[gazza619]

Another idiotic statement. Bumrah is million miles ahead of Shaheen in tests it’s not even a comparison.

Easy there. Bumrah is ahead of Shaheen, but not a million miles ahead of Shaheen.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Did you expect Amir to be the same bowler he used to be after not playing cricket for 5 years? If you expected him to be bowling 150kph thunderbolts I got news for you lol.

Also let's not degrade Amir too much, we all know what he did after coming back.

Yawn, excuses. He was fast tracked by your board - you should ask them (and not me) what they were expecting? Lol Proper trundler who took an excellent decision to retire from test cricket. Not everyone is built for the purest format.

 

[Hextro]

Yawn, excuses. He was fast tracked by your board - you should ask them (and not me) what they were expecting? Lol Proper trundler who took an excellent decision to retire from test cricket. Not everyone is built for the purest format.

It's funny that you think Amir is a toddler post comeback.

These are Bumrah's speeds in west indies series 2019.

1st Test: avg/highest

1st innings- 133.9/141.7
2nd innings- 134.5/139.0

These are Amir's speeds in Eng-Pak series 2018.

1st Test: avg/highest

1st innings- 137.7/143.3
2nd innings- 139.5/145.7

Bumrah must also qualify as a toddler in your expert opinion, right?

Keep in mind these are post comeback speeds for Amir. Amir was consistently bowling over 145kph and even hitting 150kph pre ban, saying that he wasn't affected after not playing cricket for 5 years would be either delusional or just a lack of knowledge about sport and the human body.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

The more he plays test cricket in SENA conditions, the more he will improve. Just look at his county stint so far. And don't forget he is just a 22 year old baby in international cricket and he is currently far away from his peak.

Why don't you apply the same logic on Pant vs Rizwan?

 

[ravisurya]

It's funny that you think Amir is a toddler post comeback.

These are Bumrah's speeds in west indies series 2019.

1st Test: avg/highest

1st innings- 133.9/141.7
2nd innings- 134.5/139.0

These are Amir's speeds in Eng-Pak series 2018.

1st Test: avg/highest

1st innings- 137.7/143.3
2nd innings- 139.5/145.7

Bumrah must also qualify as a toddler in your expert opinion, right?

Keep in mind these are post comeback speeds for Amir. Amir was consistently bowling over 145kph and even hitting 150kph pre ban, saying that he wasn't affected after not playing cricket for 5 years would be either delusional or just a lack of knowledge about sport and the human body.

Where did you get this data from??

 

[Hextro]

Where did you get this data from??

Search the relevant matches on ICCs official website and than click hawk-eye.

 

[Local.Dada]

It's funny that you think Amir is a toddler post comeback.

These are Bumrah's speeds in west indies series 2019.

1st Test: avg/highest

1st innings- 133.9/141.7
2nd innings- 134.5/139.0

These are Amir's speeds in Eng-Pak series 2018.

1st Test: avg/highest

1st innings- 137.7/143.3
2nd innings- 139.5/145.7

Bumrah must also qualify as a toddler in your expert opinion, right?

Keep in mind these are post comeback speeds for Amir. Amir was consistently bowling over 145kph and even hitting 150kph pre ban, saying that he wasn't affected after not playing cricket for 5 years would be either delusional or just a lack of knowledge about sport and the human body.

Amir or a lot of Pakistan bowlers these days can’t cut it in a Bumrah type schedule. Proof is in the pudding.

As a cricket fan I have seen Pak tours of Aus and Nzl recently.

Look at the Indian attack hunting in packs (while I do admit out batting sucks these days) and compare it to Warner, Jamieson etc making hay against Pakistanis in their second spells after their intensity runs out after the opening spells.

God knows where this superficiality comes from.

I guess we have made baby steps progress from Bumrah is totally useless to Bumrah is better in tests. Work in progress but we will get there.

You can go and do any gymnastics with numbers, Pak test attack and even odi attack where England C was smashing their bowlers has been pedestrian outside of WT20 which was in favorable UAE conditions which has been home for the Pakistan cricketer over a decade now. Well done there.

 

[sindhiboy]

Shaheen may easily surpass all current seamers in limited overs .

Although shaheen has bowled pretty well in Asia, he is yet to perform vs top oppositions in the test format. He will do that eventually as he has alot of years left in him.

I dont think comparisons can be made as of now