Can Dale Steyn ever match the greatness of Wasim Akram?

[Stallion__]

Total number of runs conceded by a bowler is runs scored by right handers against him + runs scored by left handers scored against him + extras. From the data, taking 320 wickets at 16.60 per wicket, Wasim has conceded 5312 runs against them and taking 94 wickets at 19.18 runs per wicket, he has conceded 1803 runs against them. That adds up to 7115 runs. And total number of runs conceded by Wasim in his career are 9779. Now 9779-7115 = 2664 runs. I really doubt that Wasim has conceded 2664 extras in 3771.1 overs that he has bowled in test cricket.

Ok this is what 'average score upon dismissal' means:

Wasim dismisses three batsman: Player A who had scored 35 runs, Player B who had scored 20 runs, Player C, who had scored 5 runs. These are not the runs these batsmen scored against Wasim, rather these were the scores they were batting at when they were dismissed. So, average score upon dismissal would be 35+20+5 = 60/3 = 20 runs.

Yeah, I got that earlier. Has also been clarified in this post

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ss-of-Wasim-Akram/page6&p=5814734#post5814734

In wicket summary , Cricinfo have average score at which batsmen were dismissed and it has absolutely no relationship with how cheaply Wasim took wickets against RHB & LHB. Cric info should have done better job at labeling this.

 

[Sidilicious]

Steyn is definitely greater than Wasim in Tests. But due to his ODI exploits, Wasim is an overall better bowler. Not by a HUGE Margin.

If Wasim is rated 9.4/10 as a bowler, then Steyn would be 9.2/10

The ODIs in Wasim's and Steyn's era are completely different, so you really can't compare them one on one. Best to compare them with peers. In Tests, Wasim was equal to a few of his peers. Steyn is way ahead of all them. In ODIs, Wasim was ahead of his peers, but not by a huge margin. In ODIs, Steyn is not the best bowler amongst his peers.

 

[WrexEverything]

Why are there so many jealous Indians here on Pakpassion lately? Was im is no doubt the superior bowler in all formats and is in the Top 3 All time fast bowlers. Stern is a great fast bowler, but Wasim is in a class of his own at the top.

Can't understand the bitterness by some.

I mean, there's a clear difference in the skill-set of both. Opposition and quality of batsmen faced is also different. Yet, because Steyn averages 22 and Wasim averages 23, Steyn is better.

Now I dare you open a thread that Kallis or Sangakkara are better than Tendulkar because they average more (or someone else who averages more than SRT). I double dare you.

These are nonsense posts. Wasim was indeed better than Steyn in ODIs, but saying that the only people who rate Steyn higher are jealous Indians is rubbish. Both of them trump the other in one of the formats.

And it's not just averages either. Steyn has maintained his amazingly low average with one of the best strike rates in history and one of the highest ever wickets/match ratio. Plus, he bowls equally brilliantly with the new and old ball, has produced amazingly destructive spells on flat pitches in Subcontinent, and consistently delivers in big series defining moments.

 

[sajeebmcj]

in test , steyn is the best along with Marshall. akram is way behind of steyn .but it is opposite in odi.
overall akram and steyn are equal.

 

[Kianig89]

In Tests Steyn is better but in ODI's Wasim is way better than Steyn

and since the question is not only Steyn vs Akram the bowler then taking into account Wasim's batting skills and quality as a leader

Wasim > Steyn

 

[Sidilicious]

In Tests Steyn is better but in ODI's Wasim is way better than Steyn

and since the question is not only Steyn vs Akram the bowler then taking into account Wasim's batting skills and quality as a leader

Wasim > Steyn

Wasim is definitely better, but not by a huge margin. ODIs in this era are different. With 2 new balls, there is no reverse swing and so even Wasim would have struggled.

 

[Kianig89]

Wasim is definitely better, but not by a huge margin. ODIs in this era are different. With 2 new balls, there is no reverse swing and so even Wasim would have struggled.

two new ball rule came after 2011 and if u check Steyn's ODI record prior to 2011 its absolutely crap the fact is Steyn is an ok ODI bowler while Wasim was a great ODI bowler there's a gulf between the two in LOI

 

[TheOnDrive]

Steyn has been amazing in tests, getting batsmen out at that rate can't be ignored and has produced a lot of match winning spells. He is way ahead of his peers. Wasim was lovely to watch and trumps Steyn because of his LOI exploits. LOI pitches have been crap for a few years but Starc and Boult are showing that a bowler can also dominate. Steyn, Johnson and Anderson are all actually striking quicker than Wasim but with the inflated average batting scores their bowling averages are suffering (Economy rates are just too high).

With that said, Steyn is thee man in tests and Wasim was a man for both tests and LOI's.

 

[Chrish]

The guy could move the ball any direction he wanted, inswing, outswing, seam, you name it.

So can Steyn.. The only thing that Steyn lacks compared to Wasim is toe-crushing yorker.. But than again he makes up for it by bowling at much faster pace than Wasim.

And people need to consider all the batting friendly conditions that work against bowlers before bringing up Steyn's ODI record in every discussion. Who knows what Akram's record might have been if he had to bowl in the world of batting powlerplay, freehits, smaller grounds, and bigger bats?

 

[Chrish]

Just like Mcgrath and Marshall, most of Steyn's scalps are top order batmen..

 

[Robert]

Lillee flopped in the Subcontinent and does not compare to the top tier of Atg's. If you took you blue tinted glasses off, you would acknowledge that Wasim is superior but your bias against Pakistan won't let you do so. Steyn along with Lillee are a level below Marshall,Wasim.

This meme again. Learn to look beyond stats, which often mislead. Stats will tell you that Wasim was a mediocre bowler home and away against England. Or was he just carrying injuries or suffering diabetic issues when he played them?

Ask any quick bowler of the period who was the best. Imran, Hadlee, Marshall all say Lillee was #1.

 

[Chrish]

This meme again. Learn to look beyond stats, which often mislead. Stats will tell you that Wasim was a mediocre bowler home and away against England. Or was he just carrying injuries or suffering diabetic issues when he played them?

Ask any quick bowler of the period who was the best. Imran, Hadlee, Marshall all say Lillee was #1.

6 test isn't good enough sample size to judge a bowler I guess. I still think he is below M & M but right there at the top. He had the most attacking mindset I have ever seen from a bowler. Here is my favorite video.. The way he keeps coming at the finest batsman of his time.. Cricket at its very best!

 

[zabalestmsm]

Just like Mcgrath and Marshall, most of Steyn's scalps are top order batmen..

I don't find the batsmen of this era as good as compared to the ones from the previous eras!

 

[Neferpitou]

Steyn is not better than Wasim in tests, lmao. His record against the only two decent teams in this era is pitiful.

 

[WrexEverything]

I don't find the batsmen of this era as good as compared to the ones from the previous eras!

Typical rose tinted glasses nothing more.

 

[WrexEverything]

Steyn is not better than Wasim in tests, lmao. His record against the only two decent teams in this era is pitiful.

The record has to be seen in context. Steyn's average vs Australia in somewhere around 27 I think. But on two successive tour to Australia he has produced deicisive spells to win the series. (Melbourne in 2008 and Perth in 2012). That's for more significant than having a low average, especially when the sample size is small.

 

[Neferpitou]

The record has to be seen in context. Steyn's average vs Australia in somewhere around 27 I think. But on two successive tour to Australia he has produced deicisive spells to win the series. (Melbourne in 2008 and Perth in 2012). That's for more significant than having a low average, especially when the sample size is small.

None of them were decisive spells as SA's batsmen had put up mammoth scores in both games. Even Ishant Sharma could've won that game. Anyway, I'll give him the 2008 one.

He disappeared this time around when Australia fielded a pretty strong team.

 

[Adeel Naseem]

Steyn Is not Big Match player Specially in ODI . Like other RSA Players he Can Not sustain Pressure. Thats The difference b/t Akram

 

[Neferpitou]

To those claiming Steyn is a top 5 bowler, why hasn't he beasted against Australia and England if he's that good? England and Aus(recently) have been the only two decent test sides apart from SA.

 

[as-95]

This meme again. Learn to look beyond stats, which often mislead. Stats will tell you that Wasim was a mediocre bowler home and away against England. Or was he just carrying injuries or suffering diabetic issues when he played them?

Ask any quick bowler of the period who was the best. Imran, Hadlee, Marshall all say Lillee was #1.

What one player says about another is just as misleading as stats IMO. It is just an opinion and it can be affected by bias, like or dislike of a certain player or general humility in claiming someone else is better in Marshalls case. For example, even more players rate Marshall as the greatest fast bowler they ever saw than Lillee. Despite that, when Marshall was asked about his own view, it would be more humble and befitting to name somebody else. Lillee would probably do likewise if asked.

Regardless, whether you look at stats, or general opinion of Lillee on unfamiliar pitches, it is universally known that he was poor. He has a pathetic record in India and IIRC he also dodged a tour. That can't be changed and it is a big question mark on his bowling prowess in comparison to other players of his time.

 

[rollingstoned]

For a 32 year old ATG Steyn really hasn't played many ODIs. I think if we look beyond the touchiness exhibited in general here - understandably - Steyn IS pretty comparable to Wasim and there's not much daylight between them. Lots of Saffers think he's the best fast bowler they've ever produced so that really is saying something.

 

[as-95]

Steyn Is not Big Match player Specially in ODI . Like other RSA Players he Can Not sustain Pressure. Thats The difference b/t Akram

) great point. Steyn is a choker of the highest order and has been mediocre against the likes of Australia and Eng.

 

[as-95]

Steyn is not better than Wasim in tests, lmao. His record against the only two decent teams in this era is pitiful.

Agreed. Definitely a blot on his test career. He is not too old to prove us wrong by finally performing against the big test sides, but at the moment, this trend leaves him below Akram in Tests. He's not great in ODI's anyway so he's a rung below the likes of Akram.

 

[Robert]

6 test isn't good enough sample size to judge a bowler I guess. I still think he is below M & M but right there at the top. He had the most attacking mindset I have ever seen from a bowler. Here is my favorite video.. The way he keeps coming at the finest batsman of his time.. Cricket at its very best!

He was still express in those days. There's another time where DKL bowled the last over of the day at Viv, cleaned him up with a fast off-break with the last ball to leave WI 40-4 (all taken by Lillee IIRC).

Latterly he slowed down to the low-eighties mph range but became a cut-and-swing monster.

 

[Hawkeye]

So can Steyn.. The only thing that Steyn lacks compared to Wasim is toe-crushing yorker.. But than again he makes up for it by bowling at much faster pace than Wasim.

And people need to consider all the batting friendly conditions that work against bowlers before bringing up Steyn's ODI record in every discussion. Who knows what Akram's record might have been if he had to bowl in the world of batting powlerplay, freehits, smaller grounds, and bigger bats?

When did you start watching cricket and how come you claimed that Steyn has "much faster" pace?

FYI, Steyn has one special delivery and that is his outswinger. He doesn't bowl inswingers. There are one or two flukes in his many years of bowling, but that's the skill he don't possess.

Obviously you haven't seen Wasim at his peak. He was a real quick. Probably faster than Steyn. Only in the last few years he had to reduce his pace.

You're also ignorant of the fact that Wasim played against ATG batsmen, Steyn didn't face such opposition.

To cut it short, are you Indian?

 

[Hawkeye]

To those claiming Steyn is a top 5 bowler, why hasn't he beasted against Australia and England if he's that good? England and Aus(recently) have been the only two decent test sides apart from SA.

Neighbors on a rage here.

As I said earlier, it's similar to claiming that Kallis or Amla are better batsmen than Tendulkar.

You say that, and face the wrath of parosis.

 

[Hitman]

Who cares who's better? Fans are lucky that we saw an ATG in Steyn after 2000. There has been no ATG bowler apart from Steyn who made his debut after 2000.

Personally, Wasim Akram is among my top 5 favorite fast bowlers ever, while Steyn is in my top 10. I just hope Steyn goes on to achieve further heights.

 

[WrexEverything]

When did you start watching cricket and how come you claimed that Steyn has "much faster" pace?

FYI, Steyn has one special delivery and that is his outswinger. He doesn't bowl inswingers. There are one or two flukes in his many years of bowling, but that's the skill he don't possess.

Obviously you haven't seen Wasim at his peak. He was a real quick. Probably faster than Steyn. Only in the last few years he had to reduce his pace.

You're also ignorant of the fact that Wasim played against ATG batsmen, Steyn didn't face such opposition.

To cut it short, are you Indian?

Such nonsense again.

Steyn doesn't have as many magic deliveries as Wasim, but his outswinger is one of the best in history. He also bowls the off cutter, the good length scrambled seam ball (both of which he used superbly on a flat pitch in Nagpur in 2010), the quick, skiddy bouncer superbly.

And the bastmen argument is again rubbish. Steyn has bowled to batsmen like Sachin, Sanga, Dravid, Ponting, Pietersen, Cook, Younis, Clarke, Laxman, Hussey, Sehwag, Jayawardene etc. and at some stage or other owned them. Those are all top quality batsmen.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Lillee flopped in the Subcontinent and does not compare to the top tier of Atg's. If you took you blue tinted glasses off, you would acknowledge that Wasim is superior but your bias against Pakistan won't let you do so. Steyn along with Lillee are a level below Marshall,Wasim.

Blue tinted glasses? ) . I did say Wasim is my favourite fast bowler but you conveniently ignored that part. What bias against Pakistan? Steyn has taken more 5fers than Wasim and at a lower average. Not to mention a much superior strike rate. You should take off your green tinted ones instead lol.

 

[WrexEverything]

To those claiming Steyn is a top 5 bowler, why hasn't he beasted against Australia and England if he's that good? England and Aus(recently) have been the only two decent test sides apart from SA.

) great point. Steyn is a choker of the highest order and has been mediocre against the likes of Australia and Eng.

Agreed. Definitely a blot on his test career. He is not too old to prove us wrong by finally performing against the big test sides, but at the moment, this trend leaves him below Akram in Tests. He's not great in ODI's anyway so he's a rung below the likes of Akram.

Neighbors on a rage here.

As I said earlier, it's similar to claiming that Kallis or Amla are better batsmen than Tendulkar.

You say that, and face the wrath of parosis.

Oh my god, this "padosi" stuff needs to die. Brings down the whole quality of the forum.

SOme thoughts for you guys here:

Judging a players performance vs a certain team purely in terms of average is insanely flawed. A low average is useful, true, but if you look at Steyn's record vs Australia, he has 69 wickets in 14 matches at an average of 27. How is that a bad record?

Also, as I said, don't just look at the average. Why don't you consider that :

a) He has 69 wickets in 14 games. That's almost 5 per match. Even if you argue that 27 is a slightly higher average, he more than makes up for it by being prolific and picking up loads of wickets.

b) As I said before, he has produced two amazingly decisive spells in vital situations to win series in Australia. TWICE. In Melbourne 2008 and Perth 2012. He also won the match with an amazing old ball spell in Capetown last year.

Ignoring all this and just saying "Steyn average high vs Ozzies, he's a choker vs big teams lololol", just look at the big picture and how his actual performances have been, instead of only dismissing him by looking at statsguru. That's just lazy.

Coming to his performance vs ENgland. He averages 32. True, he hasn't been great. Still, that's one country, and everyone has one bad nation. Wasim himself was nothing special vs England. There's also the fact that Steyn played his first series vs England in 2004 which skews his stats vs England quite a lot.

Plus, India have been a brilliant batting lineup (arguably the best in the world) in 2007-10 and Steyn repeatedly destroyed them when he played India. Does that not count in his favour? india in this era (atleast till 2011) were as much a top team as England.

 

[Hawkeye]

Such nonsense again.

Steyn doesn't have as many magic deliveries as Wasim, but his outswinger is one of the best in history. He also bowls the off cutter, the good length scrambled seam ball (both of which he used superbly on a flat pitch in Nagpur in 2010), the quick, skiddy bouncer superbly.

And the bastmen argument is again rubbish. Steyn has bowled to batsmen like Sachin, Sanga, Dravid, Ponting, Pietersen, Cook, Younis, Clarke, Laxman, Hussey, Sehwag, Jayawardene etc. and at some stage or other owned them. Those are all top quality batsmen.

Steyn is a great bowler, but he's better than Wasim because he bowled superbly in Nagpur in 2010? What rubbish?

Again rubbish examples. When was Steyn's peak? He averaged 31 till Jan 2007. Most of the ATGs were either retired or in their last days, out of form. Can't comprehend how can you compare the likes of Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting etc of 90s to 2008/2010. I don't even want to argue on this anymore.

If you're claiming that Steyn has close to as many varieties and skills as Wasim, then again, no point arguing cuz you haven't seen both bowl.

 

[Hawkeye]

Plus, India have been a brilliant batting lineup (arguably the best in the world) in 2007-10 and Steyn repeatedly destroyed them when he played India. Does that not count in his favour? india in this era (atleast till 2011) were as much a top team as England.

This tells me you're a young kid who has not watched cricket in the 90s, not even in videos.

Obviously you're impressed because Steyn did well against India, but Wasim did that throughout the late 80s and 90s. Then early 2000s. Against all ATG batsmen and quality teams.

Then there's comparison of bowler's skills, which again can't be matched. Or do you want to argue that Steyn has a better skill-set? (Just like Amla is better than SRT?)

 

[WrexEverything]

Steyn is a great bowler, but he's better than Wasim because he bowled superbly in Nagpur in 2010? What rubbish?

Again rubbish examples. When was Steyn's peak? He averaged 31 till Jan 2007. Most of the ATGs were either retired or in their last days, out of form. Can't comprehend how can you compare the likes of Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting etc of 90s to 2008/2010. I don't even want to argue on this anymore.

If you're claiming that Steyn has close to as many varieties and skills as Wasim, then again, no point arguing cuz you haven't seen both bowl.

Ok, then tell me all these times that Wasim bowled superbly to Lara, Sachin and Ponting. Please do.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Steyn is a great bowler, but he's better than Wasim because he bowled superbly in Nagpur in 2010? What rubbish?

Again rubbish examples. When was Steyn's peak? He averaged 31 till Jan 2007. Most of the ATGs were either retired or in their last days, out of form. Can't comprehend how can you compare the likes of Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting etc of 90s to 2008/2010. I don't even want to argue on this anymore.

If you're claiming that Steyn has close to as many varieties and skills as Wasim, then again, no point arguing cuz you haven't seen both bowl.

You don't need as much variety as Wasim to be a great fast bowler. How many varieties did Mcgrath have? or for that matter even a Waqar Younis apart from the inswinging yorker? Steyn has the deadliest outswinger in the world. Can shape the old ball back in and has a skiddy short ball that is nigh on unplayable. In fact when he struggles to swing the ball, he resorts to his short stuff that gets him wickets.

 

[WrexEverything]

And what on earth are you talking about when you say the players I mentioned were past their peak after 2007? Only Ponting was past it. ALl the others I mentioned, Sachin, Sanga, Dravid (arguable), Younis, CLarke, Hussey, Jayawardene, Pietersen, Cook, etc all were fabulous players in 2007-10. Don't know what you're even talking about.

 

[WrexEverything]

You don't need as much variety as Wasim to be a great fast bowler. How many varieties did Mcgrath have? or for that matter even a Waqar Younis apart from the inswinging yorker? Steyn has the deadliest outswinger in the world. Can shape the old ball back in and has a skiddy short ball that is nigh on unplayable. In fact when he struggles to swing the ball, he resorts to his short stuff that gets him wickets.

Excellent post. Exactly what I was saying. Variety is a luxury, not a necessity.

 

[Mamoon]

Steyn's record against Australia and England should count against him. No doubt a great bowler, but I have my reservations if he really is among the top 5 of all time as some claim.

Definitely an all-time great though, but he gets a free pass because he is the only all-time great bowler in the current era, and seems to get extra points based on the assumption that he would have done better in the 80's and 90's, but there is little proof for that because he hasn't been earth-shattering against the two quality batting units of his era, excluding his own team.

 

[WrexEverything]

This tells me you're a young kid who has not watched cricket in the 90s, not even in videos.

Obviously you're impressed because Steyn did well against India, but Wasim did that throughout the late 80s and 90s. Then early 2000s. Against all ATG batsmen and quality teams.

Then there's comparison of bowler's skills, which again can't be matched. Or do you want to argue that Steyn has a better skill-set? (Just like Amla is better than SRT?)

Since you want to compare performance vs India, why don't you tell me what great batsmen India had during 90s. Only Tendulkar. Dravid was still young. The India Steyn faced had Tendulkar, Laxman, Sehwag, Dravid.

And kindly stop with the "kid" rubbish. It's you who's being childish here. Stick to debating the topic.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Steyn's record against Australia and England should count against him. No doubt a great bowler, but I have my reservations if he really is among the top 5 of all time as some claim.

Definitely an all-time great though, but he gets a free pass because he is the only all-time great bowler in the current era, and seems to get extra points based on the assumption that he would have done better in the 80's and 90's, but there is little proof for that because he hasn't been earth-shattering against the two quality batting units of his era, excluding his own team.

It has gotten much harder to bowl in Steyn's time though. For example take the 2012 series between England and South Africa. Steyn averaged below 30 in that series where the likes of jimmy got smashed. Bigger bats, flatter pitches - that certainly is a factor. Besides the indian batting lineup pre 2011 was terrific at home atleast and Steyn was brilliant both times.

 

[Statsman]

Steyn is a bigger match winner.

In the test matches where Steyn played SA have had a W/L ratio of 2.33
ODIs - 1.7

For Akram it is 1.5 and 1.3

#PPLogic

 

[WrexEverything]

Steyn's record against Australia and England should count against him. No doubt a great bowler, but I have my reservations if he really is among the top 5 of all time as some claim.

Definitely an all-time great though, but he gets a free pass because he is the only all-time great bowler in the current era, and seems to get extra points based on the assumption that he would have done better in the 80's and 90's, but there is little proof for that because he hasn't been earth-shattering against the two quality batting units of his era, excluding his own team.

It should indeed. But in a comparison with Wasim? Wasim himself wasn't amazing vs England. And there's hardly much difference in their records vs Australia. Honestly don't udnerstand how this has much relevance in Steyn vs Akram debate.

Plus, Akram averaged close to 30 against the 2nd best team of his time... South Africa. Should that not count against him?

 

[Hawkeye]

Forget Steyn.

Agarkar > Wasim (Tests).

 

[WrexEverything]

It has gotten much harder to bowl in Steyn's time though. For example take the 2012 series between England and South Africa. Steyn averaged below 30 in that series where the likes of jimmy got smashed. Bigger bats, flatter pitches - that certainly is a factor. Besides the indian batting lineup pre 2011 was terrific at home atleast and Steyn was brilliant both times.

Yep. Agree with this. Steyn's performances vs India should count for a lot, considering he destroyed our best lineups consistently.

 

[Neferpitou]

Oh my god, this "padosi" stuff needs to die. Brings down the whole quality of the forum.

SOme thoughts for you guys here:

Judging a players performance vs a certain team purely in terms of average is insanely flawed. A low average is useful, true, but if you look at Steyn's record vs Australia, he has 69 wickets in 14 matches at an average of 27. How is that a bad record?

Also, as I said, don't just look at the average. Why don't you consider that :

a) He has 69 wickets in 14 games. That's almost 5 per match. Even if you argue that 27 is a slightly higher average, he more than makes up for it by being prolific and picking up loads of wickets.

b) As I said before, he has produced two amazingly decisive spells in vital situations to win series in Australia. TWICE. In Melbourne 2008 and Perth 2012. He also won the match with an amazing old ball spell in Capetown last year.

Ignoring all this and just saying "Steyn average high vs Ozzies, he's a choker vs big teams lololol", just look at the big picture and how his actual performances have been, instead of only dismissing him by looking at statsguru. That's just lazy.

Don't beat around the bush bud. Answer my question, why has Steyn the great not dominated Aus when they've been relatively weak compared to their past.

I don't need statsguru, I've watched him bowl against Australia and he's been nothing special. In the most recent series, Australia fielded their strongest team in recent times and he had no answer for them. Warner made him look a mediocre bowler.

Coming to his performance vs ENgland. He averages 32. True, he hasn't been great. Still, that's one country, and everyone has one bad nation. Wasim himself was nothing special vs England. There's also the fact that Steyn played his first series vs England in 2004 which skews his stats vs England quite a lot.

Yeah nothing surprising, he chokes when countered by great teams.

Plus, India have been a brilliant batting lineup (arguably the best in the world) in 2007-10 and Steyn repeatedly destroyed them when he played India. Does that not count in his favour? india in this era (atleast till 2011) were as much a top team as England.

Yes, he's performed well in India but the sample size is too small.

Steyn is an ATG but he is not a top 5 bowler. To be considered the best, you need to perform consistently against the best.

 

[WrexEverything]

If you think a detailed post explaining my stance logically is "beating round the bush", don't bother reading.

Steyn is an ATG but he is not a top 5 bowler. To be considered the best, you need to perform consistently against the best.

Ok, so why is Wasim considered top 5 by you despite him averaging 29 and 30 against England and SA? Please explain.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Don't beat around the bush bud. Answer my question, why has Steyn the great not dominated Aus when they've been relatively weak compared to their past.

I don't need statsguru, I've watched him bowl against Australia and he's been nothing special. In the most recent series, Australia fielded their strongest team in recent times and he had no answer for them. Warner made him look a mediocre bowler.



Yeah nothing surprising, he chokes when countered by great teams.


Yes, he's performed well in India but the sample size is too small.

Steyn is an ATG but he is not a top 5 bowler. To be considered the best, you need to perform consistently against the best.

No bowler can average sub 25 consistently in this era on the roads of Australia against the Aussies. If that is your criterion, then there is no great bowler alive.

 

[WrexEverything]

No bowler can average sub 25 consistently in this era on the roads of Australia against the Aussies. If that is your criterion, then there is no great bowler alive.

Plus, why people think an average of 27 @ 5 wickets per match vs Australia is bad baffles me. It's extremely good.

Wasim averaged 25.7 vs Australia.

Steyn averages 27.1 vs Australia.

A difference of 1.4. Such a huge difference, right?

 

[aslaisnomasla]

I would put steyn ahead anyday of the week he as he averages in low 20s in the era of flat pitches and big bats. Very few can swing the ball so prodigious at such quick pace.

I would only expect a hater like you to start such thread, misguided indian fan.

 

[Neferpitou]

Ok, so why is Wasim considered top 5 by you despite him averaging 29 and 30 against England and SA? Please explain.

Wasim performed against Australia and Windies consistently, two of the greatest teams of all time hence why he is rated so highly by them.

Played 2 games against SA in SA on separate tours. You can figure the rest. He performed well against them at home. Even Marshall averages 32 in NZ in 3 games, these small sample sizes take nothing away from their greatness.

Wasim's average was 27 against England by 14 games. The average rose because of final two series he played well past his prime. His best series(averaged 22) was in 92 at his peak. 27 in 14 games is nothing special but by no means does it hold him back.

Some other reasons why I rate him so highly.

- Averaged 23 despite having at least 150 catches(not chances but easy catches) dropped over his career. The slip cordon hold on to half of them and he averages 20.

- Had to deal with constant collapses, bowled many times with lack of rest.

- Never enjoyed the scoreboard pressure that Mcgrath, Steyn or Marshall were provided by their teams.

- Bowled on the flattest pitches in the world.

- Easily the most skilled bowler to ever play.

- He's rated as the most difficult to play by majority of his peers.

- If he was white, he'd be considered the greatest.

 

[WrexEverything]

Wasim performed against Australia and Windies consistently, two of the greatest teams of all time hence why he is rated so highly by them.

Played 2 games against SA in SA on separate tours. You can figure the rest. He performed well against them at home. Even Marshall averages 32 in NZ in 3 games, these small sample sizes take nothing away from their greatness.

Wasim's average was 27 against England by 14 games. The average rose because of final two series he played well past his prime. His best series(averaged 22) was in 92 at his peak. 27 in 14 games is nothing special but by no means does it hold him back.

Yet, when I made similar points for Steyn, you laughed it off. That was extremely unfair don't you think?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Wasim performed against Australia and Windies consistently, two of the greatest teams of all time hence why he is rated so highly by them.

Played 2 games against SA in SA on separate tours. You can figure the rest. He performed well against them at home. Even Marshall averages 32 in NZ in 3 games, these small sample sizes take nothing away from their greatness.

Wasim's average was 27 against England by 14 games. The average rose because of final two series he played well past his prime. His best series(averaged 22) was in 92 at his peak. 27 in 14 games is nothing special but by no means does it hold him back.

Some other reasons why I rate him so highly.

- Averaged 23 despite having at least 150 catches(not chances but easy catches) dropped over his career. The slip cordon hold on to half of them and he averages 20.

- Had to deal with constant collapses, bowled many times with lack of rest.

- Never enjoyed the scoreboard pressure that Mcgrath, Steyn or Marshall were provided by their teams.

- Bowled on the flattest pitches in the world.

- Easily the most skilled bowler to ever play.

- He's rated as the most difficult to play by majority of his peers.

- If he was white, he'd be considered the greatest.

Very good post.

But how do you know around 150 catches were dropped?

With all being said, Steyn is underrated on this forum for sure.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Don't beat around the bush bud. Answer my question, why has Steyn the great not dominated Aus when they've been relatively weak compared to their past.

I don't need statsguru, I've watched him bowl against Australia and he's been nothing special. In the most recent series, Australia fielded their strongest team in recent times and he had no answer for them. Warner made him look a mediocre bowler.



Yeah nothing surprising, he chokes when countered by great teams.


Yes, he's performed well in India but the sample size is too small.

Steyn is an ATG but he is not a top 5 bowler. To be considered the best, you need to perform consistently against the best.

Because of the pitches these days.

Why does Ryan Harris and Johnson get carted by the Indians in the recent series?

Does that mean Kohli, Vijay and Rahane >>>>> Sachin, Dravid and Gavaskar?

 

[aslaisnomasla]

because of the pitches these days.

Why does ryan harris and johnson get carted by the indians in the recent series?

Does that mean kohli, vijay and rahane >>>>> sachin, dravid and gavaskar?

this.

 

[Chrish]

When Steyn debuted, he was a rubbish bowler.. He got smashed all over the park and was dropped from the team.. He then went back to domestic, built up strength to bowl faster and honed his swinging skills. He then took a lot of wickets in domestic and came back. That's the reason behind his poor bowling averages against particular country (it was oz or England). He wasn't the same bowler when he started. He himself has admitted this

 

[WrexEverything]

When Steyn debuted, he was a rubbish bowler.. He got smashed all over the park and was dropped from the team.. He then went back to domestic, built up strength to bowl faster and honed his swinging skills. He then took a lot of wickets in domestic and came back. That's the reason behind his poor bowling averages against particular country (it was oz or England). He wasn't the same bowler when he started

It was England in 2004

 

[Neferpitou]

No bowler can average sub 25 consistently in this era on the roads of Australia against the Aussies. If that is your criterion, then there is no great bowler alive.

What green Mambas was Johnson bowling on? He averaged 13-14 IIRC. I didn't specify 'in Australia', just against Australia. The last series was played in SA.

There is no such thing as a road in Australia because of the bounce.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

What green Mambas was Johnson bowling on? He averaged 13-14 IIRC. I didn't specify 'in Australia', just against Australia. The last series was played in SA.

There is no such thing as a road in Australia because of the bounce.

Another rubbish post. Johnson did that in one series. Could he repeat that against India a year later? The series that was played in SA were not green mambas either. What is your point? Most OZ batsmen play bounce with ease compared to English/Sc bats. You need lateral movement to get them out.

 

[Neferpitou]

Because of the pitches these days.

Why does Ryan Harris and Johnson get carted by the Indians in the recent series?

Does that mean Kohli, Vijay and Rahane >>>>> Sachin, Dravid and Gavaskar?

Johnson had lost his pace and Harris is 35 and even at their best Mcgrath and co. were a superior bowling unit.

Excuses all over the place, what green mambas did Wasim bowl on?

Seriously I'm laughing at the Indians here clutching at straws.

 

[WrexEverything]

What green Mambas was Johnson bowling on? He averaged 13-14 IIRC. I didn't specify 'in Australia', just against Australia. The last series was played in SA.

There is no such thing as a road in Australia because of the bounce.

Again though. Why do you not consider, that using only averages to say Steyn averaged 27 against Australia is a useless statistic to conclude ho well he bbowled. He won two consecutive series in Australia with big performances and took has close to 5 wickets per match against them. While Wasim has close to 4 per match. He also has a phenomenal strike rate. Do these statistics not outweigh hsi slightly, minutely higher average.

I just don't see how Wasim's average of 25.7 is that much better than Steyn's average of 27.1. It's such a minuscule difference, isn't it? Thoughts?

 

[WrexEverything]

Johnson had lost his pace and Harris is 35 and even at their best Mcgrath and co. were a superior bowling unit.

Excuses all over the place, what green mambas did Wasim bowl on?

Seriously I'm laughing at the Indians here clutching at straws.

Dude, please stop with the Indian excuse and reply on merit.

Harris is world class, his age has not mattered at all yet. The pitches STeyn bowled on in Australlia and England in 2012 were extremely flat. Flatter than in Akram's time. That's why comparing their averages is not an apples to apples fair comparison.

 

[Hawkeye]

Very good post.

But how do you know around 150 catches were dropped?

With all being said, Steyn is underrated on this forum for sure.

Nopes. All Pakistanis rate him as Test ATG. They even like him in ODIs, where he hasn't been that great.

It's one of the reasons why Mamoon didn't use to praise Steyn much because everyone was in love with him here Consequently, he termed Anderson the better bowler once. Which I believe he don't believe in anymore.

The problem arises when some insecure users come here and make threads like these.

I think you got a pretty good idea of, for example, how Hitman or Freelance would react if someone created a thread here claiming Sangakkara is better than SRT.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Johnson had lost his pace and Harris is 35 and even at their best Mcgrath and co. were a superior bowling unit.

Excuses all over the place, what green mambas did Wasim bowl on?

Seriously I'm laughing at the Indians here clutching at straws.

Wow..

So you ask a question and I answer it with effortless ease backing it up with a REAL LIFE example of what happened easily and you call it straw clutching.

Let the world see this thread and judge.

You raise good points but the way you trash others genuine point is pretty sad.

As for Johnson or Harris...NO ATG in the past used to trash bowlers at that run rate. Even on pattas, they didn't score so fast.

So that means current Indian batsmen >> ATGs.

Well....there goes your theory.

 

[Neferpitou]

Very good post.

But how do you know around 150 catches were dropped?

With all being said, Steyn is underrated on this forum for sure.

1-2 easy catches being dropped was and is still common when Pakistan field. 104 X 1.5 = 156

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Nopes. All Pakistanis rate him as Test ATG. They even like him in ODIs, where he hasn't been that great.

It's one of the reasons why Mamoon didn't use to praise Steyn much because everyone was in love with him here Consequently, he termed Anderson the better bowler once. Which I believe he don't believe in anymore.

The problem arises when some insecure users come here and make threads like these.

I think you got a pretty good idea of, for example, how Hitman or Freelance would react if someone created a thread here claiming Sangakkara is better than SRT.

Leaving aside the posters and focusing on topic - its a very easy point to answer.

SRT and Lara averaged 50+ in 90s when 4 players averaged 50. SRt averaged 58 in that decade.

Sanga averaged 50+ in an era where tons average 50+ post 2000.

PLus...guys like Gavaskar and Javed Miandad and Steve Waugh get extra credit for batting in a bowlers era but guys like Steyn don't get extra credit for doing well in a batsmen's era.

In fact, England SPECIFICALLY prepared pattas to counter Steyn and save their No 1 ranking.

SA got to 612-1 or something and won that game. After that they won another match to win the series 2-0.

 

[Neferpitou]

Wow..

So you ask a question and I answer it with effortless ease backing it up with a REAL LIFE example of what happened easily and you call it straw clutching.

Let the world see this thread and judge.

You raise good points but the way you trash others genuine point is pretty sad.

As for Johnson or Harris...NO ATG in the past used to trash bowlers at that run rate. Even on pattas, they didn't score so fast.

So that means current Indian batsmen >> ATGs.

Well....there goes your theory.

Not at that run rate but there have been run-fests in the past and there will continue to be in the future.

 

[WrexEverything]

Nopes. All Pakistanis rate him as Test ATG. They even like him in ODIs, where he hasn't been that great.

It's one of the reasons why Mamoon didn't use to praise Steyn much because everyone was in love with him here Consequently, he termed Anderson the better bowler once. Which I believe he don't believe in anymore.

The problem arises when some insecure users come here and make threads like these.

I think you got a pretty good idea of, for example, how Hitman or Freelance would react if someone created a thread here claiming Sangakkara is better than SRT.

I will not speak for others, but I will say that saying Sanga is better than Sachin is not a ridiculous opnion. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean debate should be shut down.

Surely in the same way you agree that as Steyn and Wasim are bowlers of approximately the same ATG level, they are atleast comparable. You think Wasim is better, fine. I too think he's far better in ODIs. But simply diluting the debate down to which country you belong to is too simplistic and jingositic. That frustrates me on this forum. I say Steyn>Wasim in tests and am automatically branded a "kid" or a "jealous padosi". We have to understand that Sachin vs Sanga and Wasim vs Steyn are genuine debates. None of them are far better than the other. Without having a true debate what's the point of this forum? Don't you agree?

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

1-2 easy catches being dropped was and is still common when Pakistan field. 104 X 1.5 = 156

How do you know every innings it happened?

I agree Wasim had tons of drop catches and his average should be better than what it was.

I also agree he had to bowl in Pakistan.

But just was questioning the number of drop catches.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

Not at that run rate but there have been run-fests in the past and there will continue to be in the future.

Yeah...that's what.

Why are there run fests where even a guy like Harris who averages low 20s in the limited games he played (he would be ATG if he had fitness) and Johnson get carted?

Its the pitches.

Hence his average there.

I agree that best bowlers have to perform against best teams but if the best team has a patta pitch, then what options do you have?

I am all for debating Steyn's pros and cons.

 

[Neferpitou]

Another rubbish post. Johnson did that in one series. Could he repeat that against India a year later? The series that was played in SA were not green mambas either. What is your point? Most OZ batsmen play bounce with ease compared to English/Sc bats. You need lateral movement to get them out.

SA batsmen can play bounce with ease as well.

The first pitch, ball was seaming all over the place and the other two produced results.

Johnson had lost his pace by the time India came.

 

[Hawkeye]

I will not speak for others, but I will say that saying Sanga is better than Sachin is not a ridiculous opnion. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean debate should be shut down.

Surely in the same way you agree that as Steyn and Wasim are bowlers of approximately the same ATG level, they are atleast comparable. You think Wasim is better, fine. I too think he's far better in ODIs. But simply diluting the debate down to which country you belong to is too simplistic and jingositic. That frustrates me on this forum. I say Steyn>Wasim in tests and am automatically branded a "kid" or a "jealous padosi". We have to understand that Sachin vs Sanga and Wasim vs Steyn are genuine debates. None of them are far better than the other. Without having a true debate what's the point of this forum? Don't you agree?

The forum is for debates, but don't think this specific type of debates serve any purpose. How old is thread? So many pages, yet whenever it is bumped the active group of members of that time re-ignite the war. Example you seem to have a special interest in this thread, and your post are overtaking even those made by Pak posters.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I will not speak for others, but I will say that saying Sanga is better than Sachin is not a ridiculous opnion. I don't agree with it, but that doesn't mean debate should be shut down.

Surely in the same way you agree that as Steyn and Wasim are bowlers of approximately the same ATG level, they are atleast comparable. You think Wasim is better, fine. I too think he's far better in ODIs. But simply diluting the debate down to which country you belong to is too simplistic and jingositic. That frustrates me on this forum. I say Steyn>Wasim in tests and am automatically branded a "kid" or a "jealous padosi". We have to understand that Sachin vs Sanga and Wasim vs Steyn are genuine debates. None of them are far better than the other. Without having a true debate what's the point of this forum? Don't you agree?

This.

 

[WrexEverything]

The forum is for debates, but don't think this specific type of debates serve any purpose. How old is thread? So many pages, yet whenever it is bumped the active group of members of that time re-ignite the war. Example you seem to have a special interest in this thread, and your post are overtaking even those made by Pak posters.

But why take it as a war? It's insecurity of Pakistan fans when they see someone rating Steyn higher than Wasim and insecurity of Indian fans when someone rates Sanga higher than Sachin. Both sides are dumb.

Now, Afridi vs Sachin, or Wasim vs Ishant, those debates are nonsense flame wars. But Wasim vs Steyn and Sachin vs Sanga should not be flame wars. They should be actual debates discussing pros and cons instead of hurling childish abuse at each other. Because a real debate is possible on such topics.

As for me, I do have an interest in the topic. Steyn and Wasim are two of my favourite bowlers ever along with Donald, Ambrose and McGrath so I like discussing them

 

[Neferpitou]

Yeah...that's what.

Why are there run fests where even a guy like Harris who averages low 20s in the limited games he played (he would be ATG if he had fitness) and Johnson get carted?

Its the pitches.

Hence his average there.

I agree that best bowlers have to perform against best teams but if the best team has a patta pitch, then what options do you have?

I am all for debating Steyn's pros and cons.

With all due respect to India, Australia will not produce those phattas for other teams.

And if we are to consider 'phatta factor' then there is no comparison between Wasim and Steyn because despite how flat pitches get in SA and Aus, there is always bounce in Australia and swing and bounce in SA. Comparing them to SC conditions will make them appear as bowling paradises.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

SA batsmen can play bounce with ease as well.

The first pitch, ball was seaming all over the place and the other two produced results.

Johnson had lost his pace by the time India came.

Yes Johnson had a great peak of 8 test matches where he destroyed the English and Saffers. But why choose just his peak of 8 matches for comparison. Why not their entire careers?

 

[Neferpitou]

Of course Steyn is an ATG and therefore comparable to Wasim but I just don't put him in the top 5.

 

[WrexEverything]

With all due respect to India, Australia will not produce those phattas for other teams.

And if we are to consider 'phatta factor' then there is no comparison between Wasim and Steyn because despite how flat pitches get in SA and Aus, there is always bounce in Australia and swing and bounce in SA. Comparing them to SC conditions will make them appear as bowling paradises.

This point is easily countered by the fact that Steyn has dominated in Asia consistently. He has been absolutely outstanding when faced with flat slow SC pitches.

 

[Neferpitou]

Yes Johnson had a great peak of 8 test matches where he destroyed the English and Saffers. But why choose just his peak of 8 matches for comparison. Why not their entire careers?

I'm not comparing them, simply showing wickets can be taken on so called 'phattas.'

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I'm not comparing them, simply showing wickets can be taken on so called 'phattas.'

Steyn has taken wickets in SC whenever he has toured post 2007. So he has taken wickets on phattas as well.

 

[WrexEverything]

I'm not comparing them, simply showing wickets can be taken on so called 'phattas.'

Of course they can. And Steyn has taken wickets on them.

 

[sensible-indian-fan]

With all due respect to India, Australia will not produce those phattas for other teams.

And if we are to consider 'phatta factor' then there is no comparison between Wasim and Steyn because despite how flat pitches get in SA and Aus, there is always bounce in Australia and swing and bounce in SA. Comparing them to SC conditions will make them appear as bowling paradises.

You can check the Aus vs SA pitches in Aus last series.

Absolute pattas except for Perth.

True....Wasim had to bowl in a lot of flatter tracks in his whole career. So extra credit must be given for that.