Can India and Pakistan move past the Mumbai attacks episode?

[Major]

Normal relations between the two country was very much possible before mumbai attacks. After partition the first generation had their grudge as they saw it. Second generation heard stories. But third generation had no reason, and thus we saw aman ke asha and what not.

Relations wont improve and the reason for that is the fault that lies on both sides. India has its BJP that will keep on promoting a version of India that is not secular and is anti-muslim.

Pakistani govt is not the issue but the establishment. Mumbai attacks got us nothing back. One attack and we were out of the ipl. I always wonder if india was invovled in the sri lanka team attack as a form of revenge.

There is no point of both countries having relations as any time or effort spent gets wasted everytime something happens in mumbai....

After the article 370 came, pakistan will be making more noise on kashmir and rightly so because shimla agreement has been voided at the same time and pakistan will be more vocal on kashmir especially till bjp is there.

Maybe the next generation can do something or the generation after that, because by that time many of the seniors would be dead and there would be less senior politicians to brainwash the young minds with hate. Be it the political leaders of india or our establishment

 

[PakLFC]

We've moved on already. Forget 26/11 it happened. Since 9/11 millions have died in terror related incidents including Pakistanis killed by Indian terrorism. Raat geyi, baat geyi.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Until Hafiz Saeed dies its not possible to move on from the Mumbai Attacks. No Pakistani govt will ever hand him over to India, and no Indian leader can improve relations with Pakistan until they get him.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

That's the point. China and Taiwan has hundred billion dollar trade and investment + millions of tourist inflow each way + heavy cultural exchange inspite of all their troubles. Bcoz both sides prioritized economic well being of their citizens

India and Pakistan have nothing to do with each other. We have no trade , investment , tourism . So what's the point of having any friendly ties. Only for Coke Studio and Bollywood ? Which we are anyways enjoying on either side via YouTube and Netflix

Even after 75 years we are nowhere close to any peace and harmony and I doubt there will be anything better in the next 75. There is no point in blame games. Both sides will say the other side is guilty. So best solution is ignore each side and get on with life

This would be ideal, having mutually beneficial trade relations without having to give up their positions on Kashmir. Also trade relations can be done without any cultural exchange, or aman ki asha , or being friends. Heck both countries can still hate each other, however still trade with one another.

 

[MenInG]

Stay on topic.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Maybe the next generation can do something or the generation after that, because by that time many of the seniors would be dead and there would be less senior politicians to brainwash the young minds with hate. Be it the political leaders of india or our establishment

If the established caused bad relations with India, I can accept that. However the Pakistani people did not elect them. In fact when given a democratic right to choose their representatives they have always chosen parties that wanted good relations. Whether its PTI, PPP, PML N.

On the other hand, the humsaya mulk has elected vile Muslim hating leaders with an overwhelming majority. Remember Jaisi awam waisay hukmaran. This idea that their were "brainwashed" is not true. This is how many Hindus feel.

 

[pillionrider]

This doesn't happen much now due to moderation, but it's a little hard for Indians to move past comments that take pride in a 'sole gunman' ripping terror among the weak Indians/Hindus.

There's also a similar pride in dominance asserted by brutal Islamic kings in India.

So, when some vocal Pakistanis stop taking ironic pride in these things, it will be easier to move on.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

This doesn't happen much now due to moderation, but it's a little hard for Indians to move past comments that take pride in a 'sole gunman' ripping terror among the weak Indians/Hindus.

There's also a similar pride in dominance asserted by brutal Islamic kings in India.

So, when some vocal Pakistanis stop taking ironic pride in these things, it will be easier to move on.

Majority of Pakistanis were against the Mumbai attacks, and any other attack on civilians in India. And if you want to blame establishment for Mumbai attacks and bad relations with India alot of Pakistanis will agree.

However this idea that in order to make peace with India Pakistanis/Muslims should not take pride in subcontinent Muslim empires is outrageous. Were Hindu/Sikh Kings not Brutal? Or do you believe they were Doodh ka dhula?

No Pakistani/Muslim has told Hindus/Sikhs not to take pride in Marthas, Dogras, Sikh empires, etc. Kings of these empires were pretty intolerant of Muslims. Heck to them the lives of cows was more important than the life of a Muslim.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Normal relations between the two country was very much possible before mumbai attacks.

So that means if one of the two countries wished to stop relations, they could engineer a terrrorist attcak. I would say a more mature govt which genuinely desired beneficial relations would look past one-off incidents or easily engineered terror attacks in a third world country.

How about using a major sport such as the IPL to build relations instead of using it as a political weapon?

 

[Major]

If the established caused bad relations with India, I can accept that. However the Pakistani people did not elect them. In fact when given a democratic right to choose their representatives they have always chosen parties that wanted good relations. Whether its PTI, PPP, PML N.

On the other hand, the humsaya mulk has elected vile Muslim hating leaders with an overwhelming majority. Remember Jaisi awam waisay hukmaran. This idea that their were "brainwashed" is not true. This is how many Hindus feel.

Yes you are right the pakistani people did not elect them, but you have to understand indias pov and i agree with them. If our establishment is involved where after every few years we cause death of innocent in mumbai than the best action is to end relations there and than and learn to be independent.

Its embarrassing that the establishment causes problems and than we beg for relations in trade and sports.

You cant generalize and say thats how hindus feel. Modi apart from his anti muslim rehtoric has done great economically in his state.

 

[Major]

So that means if one of the two countries wished to stop relations, they could engineer a terrrorist attcak. I would say a more mature govt which genuinely desired beneficial relations would look past one-off incidents or easily engineered terror attacks in a third world country.

How about using a major sport such as the IPL to build relations instead of using it as a political weapon?

Read the history of mumbai, there are no one off incident. Kashmir mujahideen funding is done by us, maybe if you were a local you would know

Mature govts break relations with someone who kills there people.

Pakistan can learn from india when it comes to have relations with taliban, thats how desperate we are that we are willing to do negotiations with taliban. While india has learned to be independent and not rely on us.

 

[RajBan]

I think when there are no relations like in last 2-3 years, both countries see a relatively peaceful phase. I will rather have that as opposed to some symbolic gestures which hardly means anything. Pakistan has a good thing going on with China , Afghanistan, Turkey , Arabia basically countries to its West. India focussing on ties with countries on Asean and East. Let that continue , we can have small dialogues here and there but I don't think the power blocks in respective countries are anyways close to same page for a common agenda. Rather they are wary and will act differently the moment there are talks of peace and trade offs. Let the current strategy of conscious disengagement continue, we will have a better chance to attain peace.

 

[cricketjoshila]

So that means if one of the two countries wished to stop relations, they could engineer a terrrorist attcak. I would say a more mature govt which genuinely desired beneficial relations would look past one-off incidents or easily engineered terror attacks in a third world country.

How about using a major sport such as the IPL to build relations instead of using it as a political weapon?

No thanks.

Since the time India has taken a hardline stance, there hasn't been many terror attacks outside of Kashmir. So there is no need to change that stance.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Read the history of mumbai, there are no one off incident. Kashmir mujahideen funding is done by us, maybe if you were a local you would know

Mature govts break relations with someone who kills there people.

Pakistan can learn from india when it comes to have relations with taliban, thats how desperate we are that we are willing to do negotiations with taliban. While india has learned to be independent and not rely on us.

Thanks "Major" beardy fellow for updating us on history of Mumbai from a hindutva perspective. Now tell that to the Afghans in your own time, and please link us in on news sites when it happens.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Read the history of mumbai, there are no one off incident. Kashmir mujahideen funding is done by us, maybe if you were a local you would know

Mature govts break relations with someone who kills there people.

Pakistan can learn from india when it comes to have relations with taliban, thats how desperate we are that we are willing to do negotiations with taliban. While india has learned to be independent and not rely on us.

Come on now Major, give the Britstani a break, he is typing from the comfort of his residence in Britain, you can't expect him to know how Pakistan works..

 

[Local.Dada]

Majority of Pakistanis were against the Mumbai attacks, and any other attack on civilians in India. And if you want to blame establishment for Mumbai attacks and bad relations with India alot of Pakistanis will agree.

However this idea that in order to make peace with India Pakistanis/Muslims should not take pride in subcontinent Muslim empires is outrageous. Were Hindu/Sikh Kings not Brutal? Or do you believe they were Doodh ka dhula?

No Pakistani/Muslim has told Hindus/Sikhs not to take pride in Marthas, Dogras, Sikh empires, etc. Kings of these empires were pretty intolerant of Muslims. Heck to them the lives of cows was more important than the life of a Muslim.

Hindu or Sikh kings didn’t come from a foreign country.


When a country with mostly Punjabis and Gunga-Jumna tehzeeb wale Indian migrants in power celebrates rulers of Afghani and Turkic descent, the comedy writes itself.

 

[Major]

Thanks "Major" beardy fellow for updating us on history of Mumbai from a hindutva perspective. Now tell that to the Afghans in your own time, and please link us in on news sites when it happens.

Us? Who us britains or Pakistanis? Why have britain got to with this?

You let the mask slip again

 

[Major]

Come on now Major, give the Britstani a break, he is typing from the comfort of his residence in Britain, you can't expect him to know how Pakistan works..

I dont, and this is why i dont understand why he tries to act as a spokesperson for pakistan

 

[NishanKonar]

Normal relations between the two country was very much possible before mumbai attacks. After partition the first generation had their grudge as they saw it. Second generation heard stories. But third generation had no reason, and thus we saw aman ke asha and what not.

Relations wont improve and the reason for that is the fault that lies on both sides. India has its BJP that will keep on promoting a version of India that is not secular and is anti-muslim.

Pakistani govt is not the issue but the establishment. Mumbai attacks got us nothing back. One attack and we were out of the ipl. I always wonder if india was invovled in the sri lanka team attack as a form of revenge.

There is no point of both countries having relations as any time or effort spent gets wasted everytime something happens in mumbai....

After the article 370 came, pakistan will be making more noise on kashmir and rightly so because shimla agreement has been voided at the same time and pakistan will be more vocal on kashmir especially till bjp is there.

Maybe the next generation can do something or the generation after that, because by that time many of the seniors would be dead and there would be less senior politicians to brainwash the young minds with hate. Be it the political leaders of india or our establishment

This is actually very true. The 2003-07 phase was the ebst for India Pakistan relations. There were regular cricket tours. Pakistani artists regularly performed in India. I myself attended concerts of Fuzon, Strings and Atif Aslam. There was genuine feelings of warmth towards Pakistan in India. The bitterness of the past was slowly receding. Of course many right wingers kept saying that Pakistan cannot be trusted but they were in a minority. Across the board most Indians genuinely believed its time to put the past behind and move forward.

And then Mumbai attacks happened. And everything fell apart. However hard Pakistanis try to deny any official involvement , the fact is a attack as sophisticated as 26/11 cannot happen without support from top levels of Pakistan army and ISI. Suddenly those right wingers who always claimed Pakistan should never be trusted were proven correct. Even the moderates and secularists in India were shocked at the way the Mumbai attacks happened

I think most Pakistanis don't understand the impact of Mumbai attacks on Indian psyche. Many think it was just another one off attack and should be ignored. Probably understandable for a country where terror attacks are common place A bit like after the Sri Lanka team attack, the PCB chief said that every country has security problems , so that attack on Sri Lanka team was not a big deal . And then accused the match officials for insulting Pakistan by claiming there was no security provided.

Just like most Pakistanis don't understand the impact of the Osama raid. It totally ruined US - Pak relations and since then Pakistan's economy has deteriorated as subsequent Presidents Trump and Biden stopped paying the bills - resulting in decade of economic stagnation and rising debt. Now Pakistan kept denying any knowledge of Osama but its hard to believe Osama was staying in a huge mansion so close to Pakistan's top military academy and the top brass has no clue !

Anyway like I said there is little scope now for any relations. So better to move on and live separate lives . Its in the best interests of both nations

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Us? Who us britains or Pakistanis? Why have britain got to with this?

You let the mask slip again

Are we conversing in English or Hindi on this site? Just answer me that bro, then we can discuss who is Britains or Pakistani.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Come on now Major, give the Britstani a break, he is typing from the comfort of his residence in Britain, you can't expect him to know how Pakistan works..

But I never pretended to know how Pakistan works. Maybe you know better as an Assie hindutva.

 

[sweep_shot]

Once culprits have been punished and people have been compensated, people should move on. No point in crying over spilled milk.

 

[pillionrider]

Majority of Pakistanis were against the Mumbai attacks, and any other attack on civilians in India. And if you want to blame establishment for Mumbai attacks and bad relations with India alot of Pakistanis will agree.

However this idea that in order to make peace with India Pakistanis/Muslims should not take pride in subcontinent Muslim empires is outrageous. Were Hindu/Sikh Kings not Brutal? Or do you believe they were Doodh ka dhula?

No Pakistani/Muslim has told Hindus/Sikhs not to take pride in Marthas, Dogras, Sikh empires, etc. Kings of these empires were pretty intolerant of Muslims. Heck to them the lives of cows was more important than the life of a Muslim.

I have plenty of posts in favour of Mughal contributions to India and my view is that they were Indians from the 2nd generation onwards. Some of them were brutal to Hindu Indians but that's the story of all empires. No one cared about the glory of the nation, they only cared about themselves. This view has been expressed by me multiple times and within another active thread too

My point was about a Pakistani who took takes vicarious pride in a terrorist ripping terror into the hearts of Indians or finding religion-derived pride in some Islamic king who brutalized his Hindu subjects. I find that pride ironic and quite pathetic, if you ask me. Why do you think plenty of us keep arguing against any pride hardcore BJP supporters might feel over the othering of Muslims in India which is in its infancy, but a real thing.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

I have plenty of posts in favour of Mughal contributions to India and my view is that they were Indians from the 2nd generation onwards. Some of them were brutal to Hindu Indians but that's the story of all empires. No one cared about the glory of the nation, they only cared about themselves. This view has been expressed by me multiple times and within another active thread too

My point was about a Pakistani who took takes vicarious pride in a terrorist ripping terror into the hearts of Indians or finding religion-derived pride in some Islamic king who brutalized his Hindu subjects. I find that pride ironic and quite pathetic, if you ask me. Why do you think plenty of us keep arguing against any pride hardcore BJP supporters might feel over the othering of Muslims in India which is in its infancy, but a real thing.

Only a minority of people would feel that way. Most of the pride comes from their cultural contributions, which are massive, and mean more to the Muslims than to the Hindus, as Muslims were more assimilated into the culture of the Muslim Kings.

And if some Pakistanis/Muslims take pride in a Muslim King who brutalized his Hindu subjects, many Hindus do so was well to Hindu/Sikh Kings who brutalized Muslims.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

And then Mumbai attacks happened. And everything fell apart. However hard Pakistanis try to deny any official involvement , the fact is a attack as sophisticated as 26/11 cannot happen without support from top levels of Pakistan army and ISI. Suddenly those right wingers who always claimed Pakistan should never be trusted were proven correct. Even the moderates and secularists in India were shocked at the way the Mumbai attacks happened

I think most Pakistanis don't understand the impact of Mumbai attacks on Indian psyche. Many think it was just another one off attack and should be ignored. Probably understandable for a country where terror attacks are common place A bit like after the Sri Lanka team attack, the PCB chief said that every country has security problems , so that attack on Sri Lanka team was not a big deal . And then accused the match officials for insulting Pakistan by claiming there was no security provided.

When Pakistan has had so many attacks themselves why is it hard to believe that their was no official support for the Mumbai attacks? Forget the attacks on civilians, in Pakistan their were attacks on Army, Navy, and even ISI facilities. Those were sophisticated as well. Do you think top levels of Army/ISI supported those attacks as well? I am not saying that rogue elements could not have been involved, but it seems farfetched to suggest the head of ISI authorized or even knew of the Mumbai attacks.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Hindu or Sikh kings didn’t come from a foreign country.


When a country with mostly Punjabis and Gunga-Jumna tehzeeb wale Indian migrants in power celebrates rulers of Afghani and Turkic descent, the comedy writes itself.

Their is no Ganga-Jamuni tehzeeb without Muslim rule. And those Kings of Afghan (Pashtun) and Turk descent were the ones mainly responsible for this culture, as they had political control. And we don't consider Muslims who were born and bred in the subcontinent, and who assimilated to be foreigners. That only reflects poorly on your own mentality.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Yes you are right the pakistani people did not elect them, but you have to understand indias pov and i agree with them. If our establishment is involved where after every few years we cause death of innocent in mumbai than the best action is to end relations there and than and learn to be independent.

Its embarrassing that the establishment causes problems and than we beg for relations in trade and sports.

You cant generalize and say thats how hindus feel. Modi apart from his anti muslim rehtoric has done great economically in his state.

Its not just Modi. He has toned his rhetoric down since becoming PM. Look at other BJP leaders like Yogi Adityanath. Their would not be a need for anti Muslim statements if a significant amount of the electorate did not want Muslims put in their place. Do Pakistani politicians say derogatory things about Hindus? It would be extremely rare. Now compare that to the amount of times BJP politicians say derogatory things about Muslims.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Their is no Ganga-Jamuni tehzeeb without Muslim rule. And those Kings of Afghan (Pashtun) and Turk descent were the ones mainly responsible for this culture, as they had political control. And we don't consider Muslims who were born and bred in the subcontinent, and who assimilated to be foreigners. That only reflects poorly on your own mentality.

Preach bro.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

I think we moved on in 2012 that is why Aane Do series happened? In 2014 BJP came into power and everything went into drain. BJP won't let India and Pakistan forget the past.

 

[Local.Dada]

Their is no Ganga-Jamuni tehzeeb without Muslim rule. And those Kings of Afghan (Pashtun) and Turk descent were the ones mainly responsible for this culture, as they had political control. And we don't consider Muslims who were born and bred in the subcontinent, and who assimilated to be foreigners. That only reflects poorly on your own mentality.

Neither do we. It’s some Muslims who see themselves as foreigners or have a foreign complex. We don’t see Parsis as foreigners do we?

Anyway all those rulers did every unislamic thing imaginable like hunting, drinking wine, consuming opium, killing their family members (fellow Muslims) etc

That makes it even more crazy.

I have seen people say Muslims ruled over Hindus for 1000 years, how did that work for a cobbler in Karachi say against some Hindu families that have preserved the culture of the land for more than 2000 years. Wonder who is the ghulam?

You confuse religion and culture. They are not the same. No one has issues with Islam in India. I think there are a lot of great things in the philosophy itself. A lot of Hindus till this date visit sufi shrines in some part of India

However the faith is not the same as culture where it came from.

A guy who came from a foreign country and ruled over this land is not a hero.

The Christians in Sc don’t consider the British and other Europeans as heroes. They see them with the same lens as others. It’s only “some” (keyword) who take pride in these invaders. It’s another thing if you are from the same lineage or dynasty.

 

[Rajdeep]

I think we moved on in 2012 that is why Aane Do series happened? In 2014 BJP came into power and everything went into drain. BJP won't let India and Pakistan forget the past.

Yes, family members of victims who have been butchered by terrorists in cold murder and their killer is still roaming freely in Pakistan will forget the past because of a cricket series. Shabash

Out of everything if BJP has done one thing best is to make it a clear that talks & terror can't go hand in hand. Something which MMS govt failed to do in 2008.

 

[Browncaps]

The remarkable thing is that posters from one country are trying to force another to accept responsibility for an attack they had nothing to do with, whilst their own country's intelligence to name just one incident killed close to 140 students just because their parents worked for Pakistan's army.

 

[NishanKonar]

When Pakistan has had so many attacks themselves why is it hard to believe that their was no official support for the Mumbai attacks? Forget the attacks on civilians, in Pakistan their were attacks on Army, Navy, and even ISI facilities. Those were sophisticated as well. Do you think top levels of Army/ISI supported those attacks as well? I am not saying that rogue elements could not have been involved, but it seems farfetched to suggest the head of ISI authorized or even knew of the Mumbai attacks.

Like I said you can keep arguing that there was no involvement of ISI in Mumbai attacks. Just like u can keep arguing nobody in Park army and ISI knew that Osama was hiding in a mansion which was a stone's throw away from ur top military academy. Problem is most Americans wont believe that. Now u can keep breaking ur head on a wall but it wont change the minds of US govt and public. That's why Trump and now Biden has mostly stopped all relations with Pakistan. Bcoz the belief in US is Pakistan harbored Osama while taking billions of dollars from US in the name of fighting terrorism

Same way most Indians don't believe that ISI was not involved in Mumbai attacks. So either u can keep knocking ur head on a wall. Or just accept that India wont engage with you any more. Bcoz the belief in India was that we let our guard down due to general air of peace and harmony in those years and paid a huge price. . After Lahore summit, Kargil happened. After all the peace building stuff in the 200s - Mumbai attacks happened.

Post Mumbai attacks there is general consensus in India that there is little benefit for India from Pakistan. So India's policy is to ignore Pakistan, maintain tight security on the borders and reciprocate in Baluchistan if Pakistan creates trouble in Kashmir. In 1997 the then PM IK Gujral stopped all covert activities in Pakistan as a goodwill gesture. In 2008 after Mumbai attacks, India again restarted thee covert intelligence ops in Pakistan - 1 reason there was so much trouble in Swat Valley and FATA during the 2009-12 phase.

So ideally Pakistan should follow suit as well. Forget India and move on ! Look for better ties with countries like Iran , Turkey , Central Asia. Just like India in the last few years have focused more on Bangladesh, Vietnam , Taiwan , Malaysia and Indonesia.

 

[NishanKonar]

The remarkable thing is that posters from one country are trying to force another to accept responsibility for an attack they had nothing to do with, whilst their own country's intelligence to name just one incident killed close to 140 students just because their parents worked for Pakistan's army.

Pakistan had nothing to do with Osama bin Laden, nothing to do with Mumbai attacks, nothing to do with 1971 Bangladesh genocide, nothing to do with Kargil war !

Heck ur army chief Pervez Musharraf even disowned his own fallen soldiers during the Kargil war. Only for Indian intelligence to release a taped phone conversation of Musharraf with another general that called his bluff.

Taking responsibility is not a strong point for Pakistan

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Yes, family members of victims who have been butchered by terrorists in cold murder and their killer is still roaming freely in Pakistan will forget the past because of a cricket series. Shabash

Out of everything if BJP has done one thing best is to make it a clear that talks & terror can't go hand in hand. Something which MMS govt failed to do in 2008.

And what have cricketers got to do with the terrorists? Use this same logic, look at India's history and get out of UK as soon as possible. Bas naam ke hi educated ho.

 

[Rajdeep]

And what have cricketers got to do with the terrorists? Use this same logic, look at India's history and get out of UK as soon as possible. Bas naam ke hi educated ho.

Its you who bought the topic of cricket saying you thought Indians and Pakistanis moved on from Mumbai attacks after aane do series.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Neither do we. It’s some Muslims who see themselves as foreigners or have a foreign complex. We don’t see Parsis as foreigners do we?

Anyway all those rulers did every unislamic thing imaginable like hunting, drinking wine, consuming opium, killing their family members (fellow Muslims) etc

That makes it even more crazy.

I have seen people say Muslims ruled over Hindus for 1000 years, how did that work for a cobbler in Karachi say against some Hindu families that have preserved the culture of the land for more than 2000 years. Wonder who is the ghulam?

You confuse religion and culture. They are not the same. No one has issues with Islam in India. I think there are a lot of great things in the philosophy itself. A lot of Hindus till this date visit sufi shrines in some part of India

However the faith is not the same as culture where it came from.

A guy who came from a foreign country and ruled over this land is not a hero.

The Christians in Sc don’t consider the British and other Europeans as heroes. They see them with the same lens as others. It’s only “some” (keyword) who take pride in these invaders. It’s another thing if you are from the same lineage or dynasty.

This explains so much. No wonder the Khans dominated Bollywood for so long.

 

[Local.Dada]

This explains so much. No wonder the Khans dominated Bollywood for so long.

By playing Rahul, Prem and Amar in their on screen personas

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

By playing Rahul, Prem and Amar in their on screen personas

We can only assume there were no actual Rahuls, Prems or Amars worthy of playing the roles.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

Like I said you can keep arguing that there was no involvement of ISI in Mumbai attacks. Just like u can keep arguing nobody in Park army and ISI knew that Osama was hiding in a mansion which was a stone's throw away from ur top military academy. Problem is most Americans wont believe that. Now u can keep breaking ur head on a wall but it wont change the minds of US govt and public. That's why Trump and now Biden has mostly stopped all relations with Pakistan. Bcoz the belief in US is Pakistan harbored Osama while taking billions of dollars from US in the name of fighting terrorism

Same way most Indians don't believe that ISI was not involved in Mumbai attacks. So either u can keep knocking ur head on a wall. Or just accept that India wont engage with you any more. Bcoz the belief in India was that we let our guard down due to general air of peace and harmony in those years and paid a huge price. . After Lahore summit, Kargil happened. After all the peace building stuff in the 200s - Mumbai attacks happened.

I have no interest, as you put it "knocking ur head on a wall". I will not lose any sleep if Indians believe ISI was involved or not involved. I was only interested in offering an alternative perspective. That Pakistanis could have done the Mumbai attacks, with help from rogue elements in ISI, without their being official involvement.

According to Woodward, within 48 hours of the Mumbai attack, the then CIA Director Mike Hayden contacted Pakistan Ambassador to the US, Hussain Haqqani.

"CIA intelligence showed no direct ISI links, Hayden told him. These are former people who are no longer employees of the Pakistani government," he wrote.

"Bush informed the Indians himself. He called Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, with whom he had a strong
personal relationship. My intelligence shows that the new Pakistani government is not involved, Bush said. It looked
like a war had been averted for the moment," Woodward writes.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/worl...re-involved/story-EZtosiG3W9dZTmCWQvNgAJ.html

 

[Local.Dada]

We can only assume there were no actual Rahuls, Prems or Amars worthy of playing the roles.

You don’t need to assume. As a Britisher (I get a chuckle every time I say it) you probably haven’t heard of any other names outside of the Khans who by the way are ingrained to the indic culture. They are secular, participate in Hindu rituals, contribute to taxes and are far fetched from the Mughals you so adore. Salman Khan does have some qualities though-killing endangered animals for hunting, drugs, alcohol etc.

 

[NishanKonar]

I have no interest, as you put it "knocking ur head on a wall". I will not lose any sleep if Indians believe ISI was involved or not involved. I was only interested in offering an alternative perspective. That Pakistanis could have done the Mumbai attacks, with help from rogue elements in ISI, without their being official involvement.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/worl...re-involved/story-EZtosiG3W9dZTmCWQvNgAJ.html

Good thing that u wont lose sleep over India. I hope {Pakistan govt also listens to voices like you. That's what we also want. Let's stop losing sleep over each other and move on in life

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You don’t need to assume. As a Britisher (I get a chuckle every time I say it) you probably haven’t heard of any other names outside of the Khans who by the way are ingrained to the indic culture. They are secular, participate in Hindu rituals, contribute to taxes and are far fetched from the Mughals you so adore. Salman Khan does have some qualities though-killing endangered animals for hunting, drugs, alcohol etc.

LOL. Khans are ingrained to the Indic culture? What is Indic culture to the real Khans outside of Bollywood? Does daal khor ring a bell?

 

[NishanKonar]

If you have observed hw Indian foreign policy works - its generally takes decisions with a long term perspective and generally does not change track that easily

Example Russia. India will never change its mind on Russia despite immense US pressure. Bcoz Russia has been a strong ally for India for a long time.

Similarly with respect to China - post Galwan India made a decision that China cannot be trusted. Hence India has decided to forge strong ties with US , Japan , Australia as part of QUAD. Now even China has realized Galwan incident is a strategic mistake and has been actively reaching out to India to mend fences but to no avail. India has decided that its India's interest to forge stronger strategic ties with USA and its hard to see India changing its mind on China any time soon

Same with Pakistan. India has made a decision not to engage with Pakistan. SO its futile on Pakistan's part to try to start the process again. If India can say No to USA on Russia , and No to China on the QUAD issue , do u really think Pakistan can change Jaishankar's mind on the policy of non-engagement

 

[Local.Dada]

LOL. Khans are ingrained to the Indic culture? What is Indic culture to the real Khans outside of Bollywood? Does daal khor ring a bell?

Hahaha British guy ladies and gentleman. I know probably you are treated like a second class citizen in your home country so don’t show your inferior complex and frustration on this thread. By the way last time I checked dal khor is used as a slur in Afghanistan to Punjabi and Mohajir Muslims which constitute 80% of Pakistan.

 

[NishanKonar]

LOL. Khans are ingrained to the Indic culture? What is Indic culture to the real Khans outside of Bollywood? Does daal khor ring a bell?

Well the Khans are the best advertisement of India's secular credentials. Jinnah said Muslims have no future i India. The fact that the world's most famous Muslim actors are from India is a tight slap on JInnah's face

Fawad Khan must be cursing why he was not born in India. He wud have been as famous as SRK or Salman

Just kidding

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Hahaha British guy ladies and gentleman. I know probably you are treated like a second class citizen in your home country so don’t show your inferior complex and frustration on this thread. By the way last time I checked dal khor is used as a slur in Afghanistan to Punjabi and Mohajir Muslims which constitute 80% of Pakistan.

Hahaha. Hohoho. When you say ladies and gentlemen who are you actually addressing here? If you know people from Punjab or Afghanistan, when did you ever see them act inferior to anyone? Or Kashmir for that matter. By the way, daal khor isn't an insult if you own it. Something wrong with veggie diet in your confused mind?

 

[Browncaps]

Pakistan had nothing to do with Osama bin Laden, nothing to do with Mumbai attacks, nothing to do with 1971 Bangladesh genocide, nothing to do with Kargil war !

Heck ur army chief Pervez Musharraf even disowned his own fallen soldiers during the Kargil war. Only for Indian intelligence to release a taped phone conversation of Musharraf with another general that called his bluff.

Taking responsibility is not a strong point for Pakistan

india violated UN and human rights laws and interfered in another country's internal matter, then you post about a propaganda based genocide.

Let me guess, india has a big economy and population so per you they are always right and can say what they see fit.

 

[cricketjoshila]

The remarkable thing is that posters from one country are trying to force another to accept responsibility for an attack they had nothing to do with, whilst their own country's intelligence to name just one incident killed close to 140 students just because their parents worked for Pakistan's army.

There are UNSC resolutions on 26/11 banning pakistanis. And Pakistan government itself has accepted that the attack was planned, financed and carried out by pakistanis.

Which country's intelligence killed 140 students? Any proper source to substantiate your claims?

 

[cricketjoshila]

india violated UN and human rights laws and interfered in another country's internal matter, then you post about a propaganda based genocide.

Let me guess, india has a big economy and population so per you they are always right and can say what they see fit.

Which internal matter?

 

[Browncaps]

There are UNSC resolutions on 26/11 banning pakistanis. And Pakistan government itself has accepted that the attack was planned, financed and carried out by pakistanis.

Which country's intelligence killed 140 students? Any proper source to substantiate your claims?

Just because you and your friends say so? Take responsibility for your false flag instead of blaming a country that has had a no interference in india policy since at least the 90s.

Your country's, there are dossiers on it and other terror attacks carried out by them, Ajit Doval proudly accepted the same.

 

[Browncaps]

Which internal matter?

It is a violation of the law to plan for 10 years in advance and then interfere in the matters of and break other countries. It is considered uncivilized behaviour.

Your own General has mentioned this.

 

[saeedhk]

Sajid Mir, the mastermind of Mumbai Attacks, has been sentenced to 15 years in prison, fulfilling the requirement of the FATF and paving the way for Pakistan's removal from terror financing list. Pakistan initially lied to the FATF saying that Sajid Mir has died but the task force asked Pakistan for proof of death which led to Pakistan quickly initiating a trial and convicting Sajid Mir.

Pakistan back to its old games. Till we cease supporting terror outfits, we deserve all the humiliation that comes our way.

 

[PakLFC]

No we can not move on until the Kashmir quagmire is sorted out and India stops as admitted by themselves stops terrorism in Baluchistan. Whist on the topic terrorist Sarbjit Singh's sister died from a heart attack yesterday. With her go her cheap comments on Pakistan.

 

[NishanKonar]

india violated UN and human rights laws and interfered in another country's internal matter, then you post about a propaganda based genocide.

Let me guess, india has a big economy and population so per you they are always right and can say what they see fit.

When you have a big economy - you can get away with a lot more. That's how the world works. India & China can buy Russian oil but Pakistan cannot. Bcoz India is a big economy -so West will not risk sanctions against India ( or China ) . But Pakistan is weak economy - so if u guys buy Russian oil and the IMF cuts of ur funding , the economy will go down. These are harsh realities of life. U can scream , shout and break ur head on the wall - it wont change a thing

Just like in 1971 the US govt sent naval carrier to Bay of Bengal to threaten India and we do do nothing. Bcoz India was heavily dependent on US aid in those days. Now the situation has changed. India understood being heavilyreliant on US aid is a big sword hanging over ur head

Sooner Pakistan accepts these ground realities - its actually better for you

 

[cricketjoshila]

Just because you and your friends say so? Take responsibility for your false flag instead of blaming a country that has had a no interference in india policy since at least the 90s.

Your country's, there are dossiers on it and other terror attacks carried out by them, Ajit Doval proudly accepted the same.

Pakistani government and UNSC are my friends? Most of the world has banned pakistani nationals for their role in Mumbai attacks. Pakistan is still on FATF list for terror funding.

Dossiers? Anyone can make a file. But has the evidence been verified and accepted by any neutral third party? Has the UNSC sanctioned anyone on this? Was the attack carried out by an Indian? The attack was carried out by 2 Afghans, 1 chechen 1Egyptian 1 Saudi and 1 Moroccan national. TTP took responsibility of it. The masterminds were in Afghanistan and FATA.

 

[cricketjoshila]

When you have a big economy - you can get away with a lot more. That's how the world works. India & China can buy Russian oil but Pakistan cannot. Bcoz India is a big economy -so West will not risk sanctions against India ( or China ) . But Pakistan is weak economy - so if u guys buy Russian oil and the IMF cuts of ur funding , the economy will go down. These are harsh realities of life. U can scream , shout and break ur head on the wall - it wont change a thing

Just like in 1971 the US govt sent naval carrier to Bay of Bengal to threaten India and we do do nothing. Bcoz India was heavily dependent on US aid in those days. Now the situation has changed. India understood being heavilyreliant on US aid is a big sword hanging over ur head

Sooner Pakistan accepts these ground realities - its actually better for you

Pakistan cannot take Money from IMF and western nations and then buy oil from Russia. If they were not loan and aid dependent they could.

 

[cricketjoshila]

It is a violation of the law to plan for 10 years in advance and then interfere in the matters of and break other countries. It is considered uncivilized behaviour.

Your own General has mentioned this.

What 10 year plan? What event?

 

[Major]

This is actually very true. The 2003-07 phase was the ebst for India Pakistan relations. There were regular cricket tours. Pakistani artists regularly performed in India. I myself attended concerts of Fuzon, Strings and Atif Aslam. There was genuine feelings of warmth towards Pakistan in India. The bitterness of the past was slowly receding. Of course many right wingers kept saying that Pakistan cannot be trusted but they were in a minority. Across the board most Indians genuinely believed its time to put the past behind and move forward.

And then Mumbai attacks happened. And everything fell apart. However hard Pakistanis try to deny any official involvement , the fact is a attack as sophisticated as 26/11 cannot happen without support from top levels of Pakistan army and ISI. Suddenly those right wingers who always claimed Pakistan should never be trusted were proven correct. Even the moderates and secularists in India were shocked at the way the Mumbai attacks happened

I think most Pakistanis don't understand the impact of Mumbai attacks on Indian psyche. Many think it was just another one off attack and should be ignored. Probably understandable for a country where terror attacks are common place A bit like after the Sri Lanka team attack, the PCB chief said that every country has security problems , so that attack on Sri Lanka team was not a big deal . And then accused the match officials for insulting Pakistan by claiming there was no security provided.

Just like most Pakistanis don't understand the impact of the Osama raid. It totally ruined US - Pak relations and since then Pakistan's economy has deteriorated as subsequent Presidents Trump and Biden stopped paying the bills - resulting in decade of economic stagnation and rising debt. Now Pakistan kept denying any knowledge of Osama but its hard to believe Osama was staying in a huge mansion so close to Pakistan's top military academy and the top brass has no clue !

Anyway like I said there is little scope now for any relations. So better to move on and live separate lives . Its in the best interests of both nations

Potw.

Exactly this. Pakistanis dont understand how big an impact mumbai attack was and they still dont understand how big an impact bin ladden being found in pakistan was aswell. It proved all the allegations against us.

Pakistans dont understand mumbai attacks because we had small scale terrorist attacks everyday that we think its normal.

If we understood the impact, terrorism would had been dealt better.

I lost any sense of patriotism towards my country and understood isi's true intentions the day bin ladden was found in pakistan

 

[RajBan]

Potw.

Exactly this. Pakistanis dont understand how big an impact mumbai attack was and they still dont understand how big an impact bin ladden being found in pakistan was aswell. It proved all the allegations against us.

Pakistans dont understand mumbai attacks because we had small scale terrorist attacks everyday that we think its normal.

If we understood the impact, terrorism would had been dealt better.

I lost any sense of patriotism towards my country and understood isi's true intentions the day bin ladden was found in pakistan

I think most folks don't understand that India and to an extent Pakistan (barring IK govt) have grown beyond this obsession of getting each other to listen to themselves. Political jingoism aside specially during elections, the state/beauracratic machineries specially on Indian side are now indifferent than ever to what Pakistan is doing unless they assess that it will impact them.

 

[Browncaps]

When you have a big economy - you can get away with a lot more. That's how the world works. India & China can buy Russian oil but Pakistan cannot. Bcoz India is a big economy -so West will not risk sanctions against India ( or China ) . But Pakistan is weak economy - so if u guys buy Russian oil and the IMF cuts of ur funding , the economy will go down. These are harsh realities of life. U can scream , shout and break ur head on the wall - it wont change a thing

Just like in 1971 the US govt sent naval carrier to Bay of Bengal to threaten India and we do do nothing. Bcoz India was heavily dependent on US aid in those days. Now the situation has changed. India understood being heavilyreliant on US aid is a big sword hanging over ur head

Sooner Pakistan accepts these ground realities - its actually better for you

I am not doing any of those things

I wanted to point out that your beliefs do not change facts about who is the aggressor, as for your lame accusations, you can enforce them on people who fall for what you think.

Pakistan will accept responsibility for facts not your made up assumptions.

 

[Browncaps]

Pakistani government and UNSC are my friends? Most of the world has banned pakistani nationals for their role in Mumbai attacks. Pakistan is still on FATF list for terror funding.

Dossiers? Anyone can make a file. But has the evidence been verified and accepted by any neutral third party? Has the UNSC sanctioned anyone on this? Was the attack carried out by an Indian? The attack was carried out by 2 Afghans, 1 chechen 1Egyptian 1 Saudi and 1 Moroccan national. TTP took responsibility of it. The masterminds were in Afghanistan and FATA.

You have had these posts of yours debunked multiple times.

Your friends are your allies who will say what your country wants as they pressurize Pakistan in this manner.

You are right that no indian carried out the attack though, refer to Doval's comments and videos, he has said india will do exactly what occurred, no rag tag group benefits from attacking army facilities, schools or mosques. It is funded by RAW.

What benefit does Pakistan get from making up fake dossiers especially when they are shared with the powers of the world? They were presentations on the dossiers, kind of hard to record lies if one thinks in a logical manner.

TTP is funded by RAW, this is acknowledged by the intelligence agencies.

As Nishan has repeatedly shared with us,due to self interests of the powers that's why there is no ban on india.

 

[Browncaps]

What 10 year plan? What event?

indian plan to train and fund mukthi bahini was initiated in 1965 as confirmed by Vice Admiral Anil Kumar Chawla.

The event was to interfere in and break another country which no reasonable country would ever do.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Potw.

Exactly this. Pakistanis dont understand how big an impact mumbai attack was and they still dont understand how big an impact bin ladden being found in pakistan was aswell. It proved all the allegations against us.

Pakistans dont understand mumbai attacks because we had small scale terrorist attacks everyday that we think its normal.

If we understood the impact, terrorism would had been dealt better.

I lost any sense of patriotism towards my country and understood isi's true intentions the day bin ladden was found in pakistan

You shouldn't lose the feeling of patriotism for your country or your people. ISI and Army can only do as much as the people of pakistan allow them to do. The day the people say no more, thats the day they will have to stop.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You have had these posts of yours debunked multiple times.

Your friends are your allies who will say what your country wants as they pressurize Pakistan in this manner.

You are right that no indian carried out the attack though, refer to Doval's comments and videos, he has said india will do exactly what occurred, no rag tag group benefits from attacking army facilities, schools or mosques. It is funded by RAW.

What benefit does Pakistan get from making up fake dossiers especially when they are shared with the powers of the world? They were presentations on the dossiers, kind of hard to record lies if one thinks in a logical manner.

TTP is funded by RAW, this is acknowledged by the intelligence agencies.

As Nishan has repeatedly shared with us,due to self interests of the powers that's why there is no ban on india.

So the Pakistani government is also an Indian ally?

Dont misquote Doval. He said if pakistan does another Mumbai we can retaliate similarly. Doval was at that point in time not even a government official.

The benefit that Pakistan gets is to hyphenate India with Pakistan and terrorism.

TTP has been linked to NDS. NDS as a representative of the them Afghan government got funds from many countries who were giving aid to Afghanistan.

Nishan's answer may be rhetorical.

 

[cricketjoshila]

indian plan to train and fund mukthi bahini was initiated in 1965 as confirmed by Vice Admiral Anil Kumar Chawla.

The event was to interfere in and break another country which no reasonable country would ever do.

So in 1965 India knew that:

1. Mujib will win the elections in 1970
2. Mujib will not be made PM of Pakistan but jailed.
3.Pakistan Army would kills 1000s of East Pakistanis.
4. 10million or so East Pakistanis will come to India as refugees and for the lack of a better word cause an invasion.

Who was this clairvoyant?

If Pakistan had stopped the refugees from entering India, India wouldn't have any reason to start anything. And not to forget, pakistan started the war by doing OP chengiz Khan and bombed Indian air bases.

 

[Major]

You shouldn't lose the feeling of patriotism for your country or your people. ISI and Army can only do as much as the people of pakistan allow them to do. The day the people say no more, thats the day they will have to stop.

Its not gonna happen any time soon. The parties that exist they will give anti establishment statements until the establishment starts supporting them. Pmln is a good example and pti who are anti establishment now adays, as soon as someone who is willing to rig the elections in their favour they would happily give them control....

Its a lost cause.

Pakistan needs a leader like bhutto that can take on the establishment and settle the boundaries.

As for the people, well if the people were smart enough they would had not get pkayed in the propoganda of the current opposition ...

Its not in the peoples hands now

 

[NishanKonar]

Its not gonna happen any time soon. The parties that exist they will give anti establishment statements until the establishment starts supporting them. Pmln is a good example and pti who are anti establishment now adays, as soon as someone who is willing to rig the elections in their favour they would happily give them control....

Its a lost cause.

Pakistan needs a leader like bhutto that can take on the establishment and settle the boundaries.

As for the people, well if the people were smart enough they would had not get pkayed in the propoganda of the current opposition ...

Its not in the peoples hands now

Pakistan needs to get out the stranglehold of the Army and ISI. India needs to get rid of Modi and RSS !

Only Bangladesh has sensible ruler now

 

[Browncaps]

So the Pakistani government is also an Indian ally?

Dont misquote Doval. He said if pakistan does another Mumbai we can retaliate similarly. Doval was at that point in time not even a government official.

The benefit that Pakistan gets is to hyphenate India with Pakistan and terrorism.

TTP has been linked to NDS. NDS as a representative of the them Afghan government got funds from many countries who were giving aid to Afghanistan.

Nishan's answer may be rhetorical.

Pakistani government (not referring to traitors and looters) has been vocal about having no link to the attack, for people like nawaz,he even agreed to register an FIR for Pulwama.

Doval has many videos on the topic, he even admitted to living in Pak as a spy and fomenting terror back then.

This is no tangible benefit, if dossier is made up world powers would expose this, as you know, they have no reason to favour Pakistan.

Sure, they are linked to NDS, but as are RAW. It's not feasible for there to be no terror attacks in Pak until 2006, then all of a sudden it becomes a regular occurrence as it needs funds, brainwashing, manpower etc. which a country with a proper spy agency can achieve.


I don't think he is, what he wrote is true, it only proves my point. He even mentioned india funds terror in Pak, only you want to spread this impression that its not true.

My original point was how one can fund murder of children just because of their parents profession, then keep going on and on about one incident in their own country.

 

[Browncaps]

So in 1965 India knew that:

1. Mujib will win the elections in 1970
2. Mujib will not be made PM of Pakistan but jailed.
3.Pakistan Army would kills 1000s of East Pakistanis.
4. 10million or so East Pakistanis will come to India as refugees and for the lack of a better word cause an invasion.

Who was this clairvoyant?

If Pakistan had stopped the refugees from entering India, India wouldn't have any reason to start anything. And not to forget, pakistan started the war by doing OP chengiz Khan and bombed Indian air bases.

There are multiple indian sources who quote Vice Admiral Anil Kumar Chawla as saying this, instead of asking me you should ask him, being indian you would know better than me why he said this.

No one is authorized to break another country, its just not on.

 

[Abdulm123]

This was the moment where any remaining chance of "aman" was broken between the two countries.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Pakistani government (not referring to traitors and looters) has been vocal about having no link to the attack, for people like nawaz,he even agreed to register an FIR for Pulwama.

Doval has many videos on the topic, he even admitted to living in Pak as a spy and fomenting terror back then.

This is no tangible benefit, if dossier is made up world powers would expose this, as you know, they have no reason to favour Pakistan.

Sure, they are linked to NDS, but as are RAW. It's not feasible for there to be no terror attacks in Pak until 2006, then all of a sudden it becomes a regular occurrence as it needs funds, brainwashing, manpower etc. which a country with a proper spy agency can achieve.


I don't think he is, what he wrote is true, it only proves my point. He even mentioned india funds terror in Pak, only you want to spread this impression that its not true.

My original point was how one can fund murder of children just because of their parents profession, then keep going on and on about one incident in their own country.

Who was this traitor? Can you share the relevant court order or something like that declaring this guy as traitor. Because afaik pakistan govt officially accepted that the 26/11 attacks were planned,funded and carried out by pakistanis.

Doval was a spy. You think isi or cia or mi5 or others don't have spies in India? Spying and terrorism are not the same.

NDS was the official intelligence agency of Afghan government. Just like CIA or ISI or RAW or MI5. They must have had intelligence sharing agreements with many agencies. Does that make all those agencies party to attacks on pakistan?

TTP was formed in 2007 by Baitullah Masud. BBC in its article in 2004 wrote that pakistan military ops in tribal areas have angered the local tribes and militants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3645114.stm



This led to the formation of TTP. They were already trained for the Afghan war. They had the weapons. They just diverted it towards pakistan.

When an Indian organization is sanctioned for terrorism by any neutral agency, let me know.

Your original point has no meaning towards India. APS attack was by TTP. Who allegedly had links to NDS. And as per you since NDS had relations with a number of spy agencies around the world including RAW, as every intelligence agency has, all those be blamed for APS attack.

 

[cricketjoshila]

There are multiple indian sources who quote Vice Admiral Anil Kumar Chawla as saying this, instead of asking me you should ask him, being indian you would know better than me why he said this.

No one is authorized to break another country, its just not on.

AK Chawla started his service in the Navy in 1982. 11 years after the war.

Mukti Bahini came into being in March 1971.So how could they be trained since 1965?

 

[ahsan17]

Who was this traitor? Can you share the relevant court order or something like that declaring this guy as traitor. Because afaik pakistan govt officially accepted that the 26/11 attacks were planned,funded and carried out by pakistanis.

Doval was a spy. You think isi or cia or mi5 or others don't have spies in India? Spying and terrorism are not the same.

NDS was the official intelligence agency of Afghan government. Just like CIA or ISI or RAW or MI5. They must have had intelligence sharing agreements with many agencies. Does that make all those agencies party to attacks on pakistan?

TTP was formed in 2007 by Baitullah Masud. BBC in its article in 2004 wrote that pakistan military ops in tribal areas have angered the local tribes and militants.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3645114.stm



This led to the formation of TTP. They were already trained for the Afghan war. They had the weapons. They just diverted it towards pakistan.

When an Indian organization is sanctioned for terrorism by any neutral agency, let me know.

Your original point has no meaning towards India. APS attack was by TTP. Who allegedly had links to NDS. And as per you since NDS had relations with a number of spy agencies around the world including RAW, as every intelligence agency has, all those be blamed for APS attack.

Idiotic post. No agency that is controlled by western states can be neutral. They put western interests above all else. Also, I bet you'd think they aren't neutral in cases they speak against India.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Idiotic post. No agency that is controlled by western states can be neutral. They put western interests above all else. Also, I bet you'd think they aren't neutral in cases they speak against India.

Everything thats not as per your agenda is idiotic?

Pakistan took those dossiers to UN. Abd apparently some other countries too. How many has supported pakistan on it? If they are not neutral why did pakistan go there?

 

[ahsan17]

Everything thats not as per your agenda is idiotic?

Pakistan took those dossiers to UN. Abd apparently some other countries too. How many has supported pakistan on it? If they are not neutral why did pakistan go there?

I gave the reason why it's idiotic - nothing to do with my agenda.

And as for why Pakistani leadership bothered trying, either they were idiotic or they were expecting too much. Until Pakistan is in Chinese camp it will not get favourable outcomes from organizations ran by western states.

Let me ask from a different angle. How many of these countries or organizations took KSA to task for supporting terrorism. By your logic KSA must not support terrorism since none of these countries or organizations say it does.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I gave the reason why it's idiotic - nothing to do with my agenda.

And as for why Pakistani leadership bothered trying, either they were idiotic or they were expecting too much. Until Pakistan is in Chinese camp it will not get favourable outcomes from organizations ran by western states.

Let me ask from a different angle. How many of these countries or organizations took KSA to task for supporting terrorism. By your logic KSA must not support terrorism since none of these countries or organizations say it does.

You gave a reason that fits your agenda.

Seems everyone is idiotic as per you.

How much more will pakistan be in the Chinese camp? Become a Chinese province?

KSA supports wahabbism i believe. Though many say its a very conservative form of Islam its not terrorism.. Yes many terrorists have been linked to wahabbism.

 

[ahsan17]

You gave a reason that fits your agenda.

Seems everyone is idiotic as per you.

How much more will pakistan be in the Chinese camp? Become a Chinese province?

KSA supports wahabbism i believe. Though many say its a very conservative form of Islam its not terrorism.. Yes many terrorists have been linked to wahabbism.

You can call it agenda or whatever. Seems like everyone disagreeing with you has an agenda.

You didn't point out why the neutral organizations you talk about haven't said anything about KSA state supported terrorism. I am talking about the state specifically. That in itself dispels your neutral organization argument. If these organizations were neutral they would have declared KSA a terrorist state decades ago. But they are closely allied with them, so they do nothing.

And this is where your argument completely falls apart.

 

[NishanKonar]

You can call it agenda or whatever. Seems like everyone disagreeing with you has an agenda.

You didn't point out why the neutral organizations you talk about haven't said anything about KSA state supported terrorism. I am talking about the state specifically. That in itself dispels your neutral organization argument. If these organizations were neutral they would have declared KSA a terrorist state decades ago. But they are closely allied with them, so they do nothing.

And this is where your argument completely falls apart.

You are correct. Saudi funds a lot of shady stuff in many countries and is doing terrible things in Yemen

Problem is Saudi Arabia has massive oil reserves and loaded with tons of petro dollars. Therefore nobody can do anything with them. Even Erdogan now is grovelling in front of MBS bcoz his couuntry is facing severe crisis. Same with Biden who is travelling soon to KSA to increase oil production. Basically Saudis have powerful strategic levers

Now ask urself what does Pakistan have ? Now u will say Pakistan has nuclear weapons but so does North Korea. It has little value unless u are actually waging war against others. So the West has no incentive to give a free pass to Pakistan. Which is why Pakistan economy is in big crisis

 

[ahsan17]

You are correct. Saudi funds a lot of shady stuff in many countries and is doing terrible things in Yemen

Problem is Saudi Arabia has massive oil reserves and loaded with tons of petro dollars. Therefore nobody can do anything with them. Even Erdogan now is grovelling in front of MBS bcoz his couuntry is facing severe crisis. Same with Biden who is travelling soon to KSA to increase oil production. Basically Saudis have powerful strategic levers

Now ask urself what does Pakistan have ? Now u will say Pakistan has nuclear weapons but so does North Korea. It has little value unless u are actually waging war against others. So the West has no incentive to give a free pass to Pakistan. Which is why Pakistan economy is in big crisis

I completely agree. Which is why this argument of 'neutral organization' that CJ and few others make up is completely meaningless. I bet they know there's no such thing either, but they can't help make these arguments because almost no one points out the flaw in their argument.