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Can Mitchell Starc become a better Test bowler than Neil Wagner?

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Junaids

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The title says it all.

Mitchell Starc has just won the Man of the Match award for his nine wickets in the First Test at Durban.

But only one of those wickets was a batsman in the Top Five of the batting order.

Starc the Test bowler remains the same bowler he is in ODI’s, with predictably disappointing results.

He has the pace, the height, the swing. But no sign whatsoever that he is developing a cricket brain. He is the rich man’s Wahab Riaz, and shows no sign of reaching anywhere near his true potential.

He can’t dismiss top order Test batsmen. He can’t bowl the right line and length to get the slip cordon into play.

Consider this comparison with New Zealand’s second best left-arm pace bowler.

Overall Test record:
Mitchell Starc 170 wickets in 40 Tests @27.73.
Neil Wagner 144 wickets in 34 Tests @ 27.87

Test record since late 2015:
Mitchell Starc 88 wickets @ 23.19
Neil Wagner 86 wickets @ 23.41

Test record since December 2016:
Mitchell Starc 50 wickets @ 25.10
Neil Wagner 36 wickets @ 25.47

This should not be happening. Mitchell Starc the Test bowler should not be indistinguishable from a short, medium/fast South Africa reject.

But he is.
 
Australia's last four batsmen scored 96 runs for the match, contrast that to SA's last four batsmen who contributed 20 runs.

Think about that Junaids, the last four Aussie bats racked up 96 runs against the SA bowlers.

How important do you think it is to knock over the last four batsmen quickly and cheaply in test cricket, would you say any bowler can do it on a regular basis.
 
Get down from high horse brother Starc is by far the best test pace bolwer currently ... :starc

Who is Wagner ? :ashwin
 
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With due respect to Wagner( a very good test bowler), he is not fit enough to tie the lace of Starc.

Starc is exciting, fast, threatening and a delight to watch whenever he holds the ball in any format of the game.
 
Wagner has won NZ more matches than Starc has for Aus, Wagner takes more top order wickets as well.
 
I wish India had someone like starc, to treat tail-enders like they truly deserve to be i.e. Shaking with trepidation. Someone like starc adumbrate intimidation of a bowling lineup which no wagners in the world can do.
 
aniket1911 said:
I wish India had someone like starc, to treat tail-enders like they truly deserve to be i.e. Shaking with trepidation. Someone like starc adumbrate intimidation of a bowling lineup which no wagners in the world can do.
Click to expand...

This.

We have Bumrah whom we are hoping will polish off the tail like Starc does.

Starc is a wicket taking bowler and bowls too many hit me deliveries. But when he gets it right, he can rip through any batting unit irrespective of pitch and conditions. Kind of like Shoaib Akhtar.
 
Starc is a tail-ender specialist. Wagner is a man's man Test bowler.
 
Yeah let's see how many people pick Wagner in their XI over Starc :35::35::35:
 
Warne & Murali used to wrap up the tail like nobodies business too. Doesn't mean they took any less top order wickets over their careers.

It's actually a strength in modern Test cricket to do that, i you bother to follow the game.
 
Wagner is a good bowler, but Starc is a beast. If he stays fit he has a chance to end up as the greatest left armer and will most likely be an ATG.
 
Gubol123 said:
I thought rankings were flawed, or it only when India and Indians are ranked higher?
Click to expand...

The rankings aren't completely perfect nor are they completely flawed and useless.

I don't recall saying anything about Indians and criticising any ranking so not sure why that's relevant here.
 
Abdullah719 said:
The rankings aren't completely perfect nor are they completely flawed and useless.

I don't recall saying anything about Indians and criticising any ranking so not sure why that's relevant here.
Click to expand...

It is not not about you, but generally about PPers.
 
troodon said:
This.

We have Bumrah whom we are hoping will polish off the tail like Starc does.

Starc is a wicket taking bowler and bowls too many hit me deliveries. But when he gets it right, he can rip through any batting unit irrespective of pitch and conditions. Kind of like Shoaib Akhtar.
Click to expand...

Man, I remember how Rabada & Maharaj frustrated us to no end with their resistance. Heck, Rabada in one of his innings batted like a top order batsman and same Rabada can't put bat to ball here. Some bowlers greatness can't be showcased by their stats, you need to watch them live to believe their talent. That reverse swing spell at the end was something which not many bowlers in the world are capable of emulating.
 
Abdullah719 said:
Starc isn't even the best Test pace-bowler in the Australian team at the moment.
Click to expand...

True, Hazelwood is more skillful new ball bowler. But Starc has a much better strike rate (better than already great Hazelwood strike rate), takes more wickets in a bunch (4fres, 5fers and 10fer) and tends to close the match in a hurry. Hazelwood is in the mold of Mcgrath, more skillful and great at setting up the batsman and starc more like Lee and Johnson who blasts thorough the opposition. Starc also gives away too many runs that has dented his average. If he bowled tighter lines like Hazelwood he would be averaging better than Hazelwood. As of now both have their place and Australia is blessed to have both of them (and Cummins too)
 
Junaids said:
The title says it all.

Mitchell Starc has just won the Man of the Match award for his nine wickets in the First Test at Durban.

But only one of those wickets was a batsman in the Top Five of the batting order.

Starc the Test bowler remains the same bowler he is in ODI’s, with predictably disappointing results.

He has the pace, the height, the swing. But no sign whatsoever that he is developing a cricket brain. He is the rich man’s Wahab Riaz, and shows no sign of reaching anywhere near his true potential.

He can’t dismiss top order Test batsmen. He can’t bowl the right line and length to get the slip cordon into play.

Consider this comparison with New Zealand’s second best left-arm pace bowler.

Overall Test record:
Mitchell Starc 170 wickets in 40 Tests @27.73.
Neil Wagner 144 wickets in 34 Tests @ 27.87

Test record since late 2015:
Mitchell Starc 88 wickets @ 23.19
Neil Wagner 86 wickets @ 23.41

Test record since December 2016:
Mitchell Starc 50 wickets @ 25.10
Neil Wagner 36 wickets @ 25.47

This should not be happening. Mitchell Starc the Test bowler should not be indistinguishable from a short, medium/fast South Africa reject.

But he is.
Click to expand...

Your obsession with height is similar to a teenage girl's obsession with a TDH guy. There is more to bowling than just height. Height definitely adds a lethal edge when the bowler already has the right skills.. So having that skill is more important than just height. There is not a single instance of a tall bowler with average skills turning out to be an ATG just aided by his height. Heck there is not a single instance of an average skilled basket ball player having a great career only because of height, in a sport where height plays a bigger role.
 
Starc has been good in Test cricket, but in order to become a Test great he still has a long way to go. I think he is better than Wagner at the moment, in Test cricket, but by a little margin.
 
Starc is a better bowler. Of course he needs to knock over more top order players. But the importance of dismissing tail enders shouldn't be down played. These days tail enders are contributing 100 plus runs which is changing the outcome of games. Starc is ensuring Australia aren't damages by tail enders.

He does need to improve his line and length versus the top order. He seems too obssed with the yorker.
 
Since Wahab Starc knocked over the tail twice in the Durban Test:

33.4-5-110-1
3-0-15-0
21-3-81-1
23-5-98-1

80.4 overs
13 maidens
304 runs
3 wickets at an average of 101.33 runs per wicket.
 
And now Starc is dropped after 3-304 in his last two Tests!
 
Neil Wagner is a very good bowler but doesn't get enough credit. Both Starc and wagner are on par at the moment for me.
 
Since Starc knocked over the tail with a doctored ball at Durban this is his output:

Three Tests
4 wickets for 403 at an average of 100.75 runs per wicket.
 
Junaids said:
Since Starc knocked over the tail with a doctored ball at Durban this is his output:

Three Tests
4 wickets for 403 at an average of 100.75 runs per wicket.
Click to expand...

Did you watch him bowl in this test? Or just checked scorecard?

Bowling 88-89 mph with top speed of 93 mph, was unlucky not to have picked 3-4 wickets
 
This is like Rahul v Babar thread. Bumping every time, one of them fails. What's the point!!
 
cricketindiafan said:
Did you watch him bowl in this test? Or just checked scorecard?

Bowling 88-89 mph with top speed of 93 mph, was unlucky not to have picked 3-4 wickets
Click to expand...
Mitchell Starc has never learned how to bowl in Test cricket.

The line, the length and the speed required are completely different to limited overs cricket, and yet Starc always bowls as if it’s an ODI.
 
Junaids said:
Mitchell Starc has never learned how to bowl in Test cricket.

The line, the length and the speed required are completely different to limited overs cricket, and yet Starc always bowls as if it’s an ODI.
Click to expand...

Obviously someone with 182 Test wickets does not know how to bowl in tests. Should he have achieved more with his skill? Of course, but to say he does not know how to bowl in tests is as your usual over exaggeration.
 
cricketindiafan said:
Did you watch him bowl in this test? Or just checked scorecard?

Bowling 88-89 mph with top speed of 93 mph, was unlucky not to have picked 3-4 wickets
Click to expand...

Nope.

Many good to great express pace bowlers have had to bowl in MUCH harsher conditions.

For super long spells. And they succeeded.

So far, Starc has yet to prove his competence on Asian pitches. Will not always get extra high bounce and grass.

Great bowlers are those who take the pitch out of the equation.
 
I agree with [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] that Starc doesn't really adjust his line and length when bowling in test matches, it's always the same formula: a series of full-pitched deliveries interspersed with the odd bouncer i.e. the exact same ploy that he utilizes in limited overs matches.

It's surprising that he is bowling the exact same way he used to when he made his debut 7 years ago.

He is still taking wickets because he has great pace and can swing the ball both ways, but with the tools he has been blessed with, he should really have done a lot better.

I'd honestly rather have Neil Wagner in my test side.
 
cricketindiafan said:
Did you watch him bowl in this test? Or just checked scorecard?

Bowling 88-89 mph with top speed of 93 mph, was unlucky not to have picked 3-4 wickets
Click to expand...

Think of how Starc got McCullum in the first over of the World Cup Final.

The need for quick runs meant that McCullum played Starc with a very high bat speed, so when he missed, Starc bowled him.

That doesn't happen in Tests: decent batsmen just employ a dead bat against Starc's full deliveries and hit his short and wide ones.

Starc uses the same tactics in Tests and ODIs. He bowls 4-5 very full deliveries per over and 1 or 2 short ones.

But if the ball isn't reverse swinging, if the batsman gets in line to the full deliveries then Starc can't get him out.

I was at the Durban Test, when Starc was Man of the Match for dismissing 7 tailenders and 2 proper batsmen.

And this is what I wrote in the Pak Passion commentary thread:

2 March 2231: "Of note, the outfield is lush and green and there is only one disused strip three across from the one in use, and it has a thick covering of grass.

That is to say, you can’t scuff the ball by throwing it from the outfield onto a rough disused strip.

In other words, the only way either side is going to reverse it in this Test is by ball tampering. It’s as simple as that."

2 March 2357: "Oh look, it’s reversing after 27 overs!

I remember being at Wellington two years ago on a strip where after Day 1 the par score was 500, and then Mitch Marsh started to reverse the ball around corners!

Australia are very skilled at getting reverse swing even when the outfield is smooth and grassy".

We probably need to accept the possibility that the temporary improvement in Mitchell Starc's Test bowling record may owe more to the longer-term use of sandpaper to scuff the ball than they have admitted to.
 
When Australia first started to get extraordinary amounts of reverse swing in Tests, in early 2016, Mitchell Starc was out injured.

When he came back, in mid-2016, this was his career record:

91 wickets in 25 Tests at 30.58 runs per wicket.

He then had a golden period in Tests until the First Test in South Africa this year:

88 wickets in 16 Tests at 23.19 runs per wicket.

But that was up until the Test in which former South African fast bowler Fanie de Villiers suspected that Australia was tampering with the ball. And from then on, the Aussie fielders and bowlers have been subjected to much closer scrutiny of what they do with the ball. And in that time, Mitchell Starc's Test record is:

4 wickets in 3 Tests at 100.75 runs per wicket.
 
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Junaids said:
When Australia first started to get extraordinary amounts of reverse swing in Tests, in early 2016, Mitchell Starc was out injured.

When he came back, in mid-2016, this was his career record:

91 wickets in 25 Tests at 30.58 runs per wicket.

He then had a golden period in Tests until the First Test in South Africa this year:

88 wickets in 16 Tests at 23.19 runs per wicket.

But that was up until the Test in which former South African fast bowler Fanie de Villiers suspected that Australia was tampering with the ball. And from then on, the Aussie fielders and bowlers have been subjected to much closer scrutiny of what they do with the ball. And in that time, Mitchell Starc's Test record is:

4 wickets in 3 Tests at 100.75 runs per wicket.
Click to expand...

Very excellent post.

This can kind of transcend to other bowlers in the past. I am not going to say names. But bowlers who had all these great records but who knows how impactful ball tampering may have been for them.
 
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Hawkeye said:
Nope.

Many good to great express pace bowlers have had to bowl in MUCH harsher conditions.

For super long spells. And they succeeded.

So far, Starc has yet to prove his competence on Asian pitches. Will not always get extra high bounce and grass.

Great bowlers are those who take the pitch out of the equation.
Click to expand...

Starc had a tremendous SL tour with 27 wkts in 3 tests when Aus lost 3-0
 
Junaids said:
When Australia first started to get extraordinary amounts of reverse swing in Tests, in early 2016, Mitchell Starc was out injured.

When he came back, in mid-2016, this was his career record:

91 wickets in 25 Tests at 30.58 runs per wicket.

He then had a golden period in Tests until the First Test in South Africa this year:

88 wickets in 16 Tests at 23.19 runs per wicket.

But that was up until the Test in which former South African fast bowler Fanie de Villiers suspected that Australia was tampering with the ball. And from then on, the Aussie fielders and bowlers have been subjected to much closer scrutiny of what they do with the ball. And in that time, Mitchell Starc's Test record is:

4 wickets in 3 Tests at 100.75 runs per wicket.
Click to expand...

Starc is a excellent bowler. 3 Tests is a very low sample to judge him.
 
Bilal Ahmad15 said:
I am saying Starc is better than Wagner in all formats
Click to expand...
I don’t see it.

He has spent the entire Test against India at Adelaide bowling as if it’s the first over of an ODI.

Mitchell Starc still is completely clueless about the line, length and delivery types required in Test cricket.

It reminds me of the decline in Rahat Ali when Waqar stopped being the coach. Neither Rahat nor Starc has the intelligence to work out how to bowl in Tests unless someone smarter is telling them what to bowl.
 
Australia's best pacer in this test, close to 200 test wickets but hey he is clueless about test match bowling! This happens when you write things without watching.

Add tio it the laughable comparisons with Rahat Ali, someone who averages 40 with the ball.

BTW Wagner was so good in UAE, Gradhomme was preferred ahead of him!
 
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cricketindiafan said:
Australia's best pacer in this test, close to 200 test wickets but hey he is clueless about test match bowling! This happens when you write things without watching.

Add tio it the laughable comparisons with Rahat Ali, someone who averages 40 with the ball.

BTW Wagner was so good in UAE, Gradhomme was preferred ahead of him!
Click to expand...

Well, he's 6'6" bowls 145/150k left arm and can swing it. It would be really weird if he didn't get any wickets. He has literally every advantage a bowler could want.

He either lacks the smarts or the accuracy to turn all those talents into a deadly, 25 average bowler. But he's got enough tools in the shed to be a 28-30 average bowler, even without knowing/hitting the right lengths or working over a batsman's technique with skill and intelligence.
 
As of now wagner is surely better.
Starc is the weakest of the three aussie pacers. But yeah he has more x factor, due to which he can trigger a collapse quickly.
Wagner bowled better in uae as well.
 
People always roll their eyes at this comparison because of how sexy Starc's bowling is. But at the end of the day, Starc remains only a good test match bowler despite everything he has going for him (the height, the pace, the swing etc.).

Wagner is the anti-Starc. He's short, medium pace, and doesn't have good seam release. But he has other virtues that get overlooked: accuracy, aggression, stamina and intelligence - all of which Starc has in short supply. He played a vital hand in that first test win for NZ, and has done similar things all around the world for years. I think Starc shades the contest narrowly, and he'll almost certainly go on to have a far longer and more successful career (Wagner is nearly 33, and I think his best years are behind him). But as of right now, it really is a close contest, as remarkable as that seems on face value.
 
Bahnz said:
People always roll their eyes at this comparison because of how sexy Starc's bowling is. But at the end of the day, Starc remains only a good test match bowler despite everything he has going for him (the height, the pace, the swing etc.).

Wagner is the anti-Starc. He's short, medium pace, and doesn't have good seam release. But he has other virtues that get overlooked: accuracy, aggression, stamina and intelligence - all of which Starc has in short supply. He played a vital hand in that first test win for NZ, and has done similar things all around the world for years. I think Starc shades the contest narrowly, and he'll almost certainly go on to have a far longer and more successful career (Wagner is nearly 33, and I think his best years are behind him). But as of right now, it really is a close contest, as remarkable as that seems on face value.
Click to expand...
Brilliant post.

You absolutely nailed it!
 
Junaids said:
Since Wahab Starc knocked over the tail twice in the Durban Test:

33.4-5-110-1
3-0-15-0
21-3-81-1
23-5-98-1

80.4 overs
13 maidens
304 runs
3 wickets at an average of 101.33 runs per wicket.
Click to expand...
And so now we see that since Australia’s use of sandpaper was exposed, Mitchell Starc has the following figures:

6 Tests
12 wickets
Average of 48.66 per wicket.

Whereas before the exposure of the use of sandpaper he had:

16 most recent Tests
88 wickets
Average of 23.19 per wicket.


Mitchell Starc appears to be literally half the bowler when the ball hasn’t been sandpapered.

And that explains why for a brief period he obtained Test success bowling as if he was in an ODI.
 
Starc after sandpaper

Am shocked the fans and public aren't aggressively going after him. He has done Jack since the SA tour. His entire record needs to be wiped clean. He looks like a third grade bowler now. Lol he only got 3 overs in the second innings
 
I wonder what his stats look like since the scandal
 
Savak said:
Am shocked the fans and public aren't aggressively going after him. He has done Jack since the SA tour. His entire record needs to be wiped clean. He looks like a third grade bowler now. Lol he only got 3 overs in the second innings
Click to expand...
Paine is not at all trusting him and his go to guy is Cummins
 
Ball is not reversing after 25 overs :) He has pace. That is all he has now. Nothing else. Sure he can clock 151kph from time to time. But even Umesh yadav defended his 151 kph non chalantly as there was no movement.
 
Starc is pedestrian now, after the initial burst with new ball he doesn't do much.

It will be very interesting to see his stats post sandpaper gate
 
Junaids said:
When Australia first started to get extraordinary amounts of reverse swing in Tests, in early 2016, Mitchell Starc was out injured.

When he came back, in mid-2016, this was his career record:

91 wickets in 25 Tests at 30.58 runs per wicket.

He then had a golden period in Tests until the First Test in South Africa this year:

88 wickets in 16 Tests at 23.19 runs per wicket.

But that was up until the Test in which former South African fast bowler Fanie de Villiers suspected that Australia was tampering with the ball. And from then on, the Aussie fielders and bowlers have been subjected to much closer scrutiny of what they do with the ball. And in that time, Mitchell Starc's Test record is:

4 wickets in 3 Tests at 100.75 runs per wicket.
Click to expand...

Ozzies missing Starc’s reverse swing? Even Mitch Marsh was looking harmless.

Both looked out of form in the last test.
 
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I was also thinking the same, not a same bowler after that scandal, may be he is going through bad phase .
Whatever the reason he has bowled really bad after 1st SA test.
 
Same with Mitch Marsh.

He had potent reverse swing and was a vital cog in the pace attack. He’s looking completely out of form.
 
That MCG vs Pakistan should be declared a no contest for sure
 
Yep, no dodgy "Ball of the Century" this summer for Mitch.
 
Junaids said:
And so now we see that since Australia’s use of sandpaper was exposed, Mitchell Starc has the following figures:

6 Tests
12 wickets
Average of 48.66 per wicket.

Whereas before the exposure of the use of sandpaper he had:

16 most recent Tests
88 wickets
Average of 23.19 per wicket.


Mitchell Starc appears to be literally half the bowler when the ball hasn’t been sandpapered.

And that explains why for a brief period he obtained Test success bowling as if he was in an ODI.
Click to expand...

Wow.... What a thread, you did this long before anyone could see it.....

Great Job buddy
 
Am interested to hear [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] views on this. Even Amir looks threatening in his first 2-3 overs
 
Starc is this generation brett lee.

Not consistent enough to be a great test bowler. He can have good spells where he can destroy teams particularly tail enders but mediocre in between
 
cricketindiafan said:
Australia's best pacer in this test, close to 200 test wickets but hey he is clueless about test match bowling! This happens when you write things without watching.

Add tio it the laughable comparisons with Rahat Ali, someone who averages 40 with the ball.

BTW Wagner was so good in UAE, Gradhomme was preferred ahead of him!
Click to expand...

I am sure Rahat with a sandpapered ball would make us forget about Wasim Akram
 
Reyansh2017 said:
Starc is this generation brett lee.

Not consistent enough to be a great test bowler. He can have good spells where he can destroy teams particularly tail enders but mediocre in between
Click to expand...

With all due respect, Brett Lee got his wickets honestly without using a sandpapered ball
 
Savak said:
Am interested to hear [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] views on this. Even Amir looks threatening in his first 2-3 overs
Click to expand...

Starc has bowled quite well in this series, but Kohli and Pujara have negated him beautifully. His spell with the second new ball on day 1 in this Test was one of the best of the series, and only a batsman of Kohli’s caliber could have tamed him.

People are looking too much into the ball-tampering. Pretty much every bowler has benefited from it as some point, and it was even more rampant in the 70s and 80s when teams could get away with it easily and made full use of bottle caps.

Do you think Waqar’s famous banana yorkers were purely down to natural reasons?

Starc is a top bowler, but he does have his limitations. He can become predictable at times with his length especially for elite batsmen.
 
Mamoon said:
Starc has bowled quite well in this series, but Kohli and Pujara have negated him beautifully. His spell with the second new ball on day 1 in this Test was one of the best of the series, and only a batsman of Kohli’s caliber could have tamed him.

People are looking too much into the ball-tampering. Pretty much every bowler has benefited from it as some point, and it was even more rampant in the 70s and 80s when teams could get away with it easily and made full use of bottle caps.

Do you think Waqar’s famous banana yorkers were purely down to natural reasons?

Starc is a top bowler, but he does have his limitations. He can become predictable at times with his length especially for elite batsmen.
Click to expand...
It’s just so “Starc”.

Australia started to get absurdly early reverse swing from the March 2016 Wellington Test onwards, and Starc and to a lesser extent Mitchell Marsh looked like world beaters.

Yes, most cricketers use sharp fingernails or sugary sweets or zippers to obtain reverse swing. Which is mild cheating

But Australia resorted to the industrial strength sandpapering of the ball, more similar to Chris Pringle using a bottle top at Fausalabad in 1990-91, or Imran Khan using one when he bowled on one leg in county cricket in 1983.

And the thing is, now that Australia are too closely scrutinised to employ industrial strength ball tampering, Mitchell Starc is exposed as the mediocre Test bowler he really is.
 
Mitchell Starc 201 wickets in 50 Tests at 28.83.

Neil Wagner 158 wickets in 40 Tests at 28.88.

Could their records be any more similar?
 
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