Can Pat Cummins be reckoned as an ATG in Asian conditions?

[RizwanT20Champ]

We often scrutinise the record of SC bowlers outside of Asia but for some reason the same scrutiny is not extended the other way around. I wanted to bring to light the record of Pat Cummins the test bowler in Asia vs India, Pakistan, SL.



He averages more than 30! Can he be considered an ATG with those stats in Asia? Your views please?

@BouncerGuy please amend thread title as necessary. Many thanks.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Looking forward to the insights of @Mamoon @kingusama92 @Bhaijaan @Nikhil_cric @DeadlyVenom @Buffet

 

[Nikhil_cric]

World class in Pakistan , OK in India, rubbish in Sri Lanka.

Last 11 away/neutral matches he's averaging 37.53 with the ball.

Over the same period, he's averaging 18.5 with the ball in Australia.

 

[Kianig89]

ATG means performing in all formats, Cummins Ahmedabad hiest is a big reason he should be in ATG

 

[RexRex]

We often scrutinise the record of SC bowlers outside of Asia but for some reason the same scrutiny is not extended the other way around. I wanted to bring to light the record of Pat Cummins the test bowler in Asia vs India, Pakistan, SL.

View attachment 148745

He averages more than 30! Can he be considered an ATG with those stats in Asia? Your views please?

@BouncerGuy please amend thread title as necessary. Many thanks.

I think Starc has a much better record in Asia than Cummins. Somebody should pull his stats.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Kerry O Keefe talked about what Cummins doesn't do in this match when he was asked why Cummins is not bowling yorkers to tailenders. He replied "CUmmins is not a full bowler. He hits the deck bowler. Bowling yorker is unnatural for him". yes. His natural length doesn't allow him to do well everywhere.

 

[Ab Fan]

Cummins has played 9 games in Asia and this sample is low. But being a fast bowler, he will still need conditions assisting pacers. He has picked wickets on flat pitches in Pakistan using the reverse swing weapon. He is quite capable bowler there and not a one trick pony like Hazelwood or Philander in Asia.

If he becomes a support bowler in his next tours to Asia, his status will be debatable. Otherwise, he has done fine in Asia and remarkable in England, New Zealand, Australia and South Africa.

One way of comparison would be to look at away average vs non minnows.

Cummins avg is 25, Rabada avg was 29 and it wasn’t great for Anderson either. Bumrah’s avg is 22.

So, Cummins is a top bowler and a highly successful captain but purely on bowling, he is not really a top tier level like Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath, Steyn and Ambrose.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

I think Starc has a much better record in Asia than Cummins. Somebody should pull his stats.

Always glad to provide empirical evidence

 

[RexRex]

^ I was wrong, it's the same .. strange, i remember Starc bowling some good spells in SL.

 

[jnaveen1980]

^ I was wrong, it's the same .. strange, i remember Starc bowling some good spells in SL.

Starc is comfortable bowling full. This is why you have to look at Australian bowling as a unit. Greatest Australian bowling unit if ever there is one. Hazlewood, Cummins, Starc,

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Cummins is a bowler who doesn't rely on conditions.... he is the one who can utilize the seam of the ball quite effectively even on a dead rubbers.

 

[Buffet]

We often scrutinise the record of SC bowlers outside of Asia but for some reason the same scrutiny is not extended the other way around. I wanted to bring to light the record of Pat Cummins the test bowler in Asia vs India, Pakistan, SL.

View attachment 148745

He averages more than 30! Can he be considered an ATG with those stats in Asia? Your views please?

@BouncerGuy please amend thread title as necessary. Many thanks.

Very good point.

It goes as negative for any non-Asian pacers for sure. For example, great McGrath had very good average but didn't have ability to run through batting sides in Asia. He has just 1 5-fers in Asia in his long career. Steyn on other hand ran through batting sides in Asia few times. Steyn did the same in Aus, Eng despite getting flat wickets. That's why I rate Steyn very high. Marshall had the same ability.

Having said that Cummins will surely go down as ATG pacer. May be not absolute top tier due to reasons you pointed out but clears it comfortably. You have to always see outside home compared to peer group. Outside home for Cummins will include Asia as well. He has away average of 25-26. If it does not sound impressive,

Only 10 pacers in the last 35 years have sub 27 avg with 100 plus wickets against non-minnows when playing away without trying to see good teams or poor teams.

Here are all pacers playing away from home since 1990:


Asian paces did get to bowl in SENAW for this sample size but all non-Asian pacers have to bowl in Asia.
Among all non-Asian pacers who bowled in Asia, Cummins Avg is at 5th position in the last 35 years. Combine that with over all career Avg of 22.

Paksitan did put super road just to counter Aus pacers. PCB head is on record for that. In the same series, Cummins took 5-fer to win his team the test.

If these outputs don't make a bowler ATG then cut off is very high and you are restricting it to too few bowlers.

It's fine if your are keeping standards that high and only considering top tier ATGs. Then he may fall short for now. He will have some more tours of Asia. If he does well in futiure tours in Asia then he will go down as top tier ATG for me.

 

[Buffet]

Starting from 2010,

Top 2 away pacers are Bumrah and Cummins.




We saw earlier that Cummins was high in list in the last 35 years when playing away. There is a large gap with Buramh but Cummins is second in the list. Also, let's not get carreid away by Bumrah. He is in Marshall's class and just because he is averaging so low away and simply outbowling Cummins in series after series, we can't say that Cummins is not great.

We have to see Cummins against rest of the peer group and also against all pacers in the last 35 years. He is near the top in both. An ATG for me. He will get into all time Aus test XI for me. Surely a strong contender if not a guaranteed spot for anyone making that XI. Given we have had 6-7 decades of competetive cricket, the second best pacer of most generations during competetive cricket should make the cut for ATG.

 

[sindhiboy]

Should improve in Asia with more tests, the Anderson effect of getting better with experience.
Even Rabada has improved in Asia, was initially poor but recently took 14 wickets in 2 tests in his tour of Bangladesh averaging 9.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

^ I was wrong, it's the same .. strange, i remember Starc bowling some good spells in SL.

Always glad to provide empirical evidence

View attachment 148746

Y'all need to look at the numbers more closely. Starc has horrible numbers in India and UAE, and mediocre numbers in Pakistan. His stats are inflated by his record in Sri Lanka where he has been excellent. Don't think that makes him on-par with Cummins in Asia.

 

[Mamoon]

Looking forward to the insights of @Mamoon @kingusama92 @Bhaijaan @Nikhil_cric @DeadlyVenom @Buffet

Cummins is a fantastic bowler. Personally, I would only rank him behind McGrath amongst the best Australian pacers that I have seen. An average of 30 over a small sample size is quite respectable.

 

[Buffet]

Oh, I misread the OP a bit. Your thread tile says

ATG in Asian conditions - Surely no one can be ATG in specific condition with those numbers. ATG numbers in Asian conditions should look like sub 25-26 avg with some 5-fers.

Then you have ATG over all - he has numbers for that.

Not sure about your question.

​

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Small sample size i think. 4 tests in India over two series isn't much

 

[kingusama92]

There's no question he needs to improve his numbers in Asian conditions (India/SL). He's still an ATG because of everything else including his record around the world, at home, and in big matches. Plus, the guy is a good captain with a WTC under his belt too.

As for the Asian record, I think some part of it also has to do with their strategy on those wickets.

He bowls quick 2-4 over bursts and then they begin relying on spinners with huge gaps between spells. It's likely a team-wide strategy (due to heat + pitch conditions) that impacts him as he would do better with longer spells.

The more Tests he plays, the record will improve cause he's not averaging 60+ next time he tours SL.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

There's no question he needs to improve his numbers in Asian conditions (India/SL). He's still an ATG because of everything else including his record around the world, at home, and in big matches. Plus, the guy is a good captain with a WTC under his belt too.

As for the Asian record, I think some part of it also has to do with their strategy on those wickets.

He bowls quick 2-4 over bursts and then they begin relying on spinners with huge gaps between spells. It's likely a team-wide strategy (due to heat + pitch conditions) that impacts him as he would do better with longer spells.

The more Tests he plays, the record will improve cause he's not averaging 60+ next time he tours SL.

Pace has declined way too much to guarantee his success.

Until 2021, more than half his deliveries were 140 +.

Since 2022, it declined to around 20-25 %.

This year its around 10-15 %

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Pace has declined way too much to guarantee his success.

Until 2021, more than half his deliveries were 140 +.

Since 2022, it declined to around 20-25 %.

This year its around 10-15 %

Where did you get these pace stats from brother? Is it available for all bowlers?

 

[aboveandbeyond]

Kerry O Keefe talked about what Cummins doesn't do in this match when he was asked why Cummins is not bowling yorkers to tailenders. He replied "CUmmins is not a full bowler. He hits the deck bowler. Bowling yorker is unnatural for him". yes. His natural length doesn't allow him to do well everywhere.

Yes. Cummins is more of a repeatable Good length bowler with nibble. Hence he's consistent.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Oh, I misread the OP a bit. Your thread tile says

ATG in Asian conditions - Surely no one can be ATG in specific condition with those numbers. ATG numbers in Asian conditions should look like sub 25-26 avg with some 5-fers.

Then you have ATG over all - he has numbers for that.

Not sure about your question.

​

Overall is what thr gist of my post was.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Sorry, No, he isn't a good bowler in Asian conditions.

He hasn't bowled a single match changing spell in India, his 30 odd average is also inflated with soft wickets.

In SriLanka, you can see his numbers are horrible.

He has given an ATG performance in Pakistan though so I would say you can't call him a rubbish bowler in Asia, he is a decent bowler in Asian conditions, I would take Starc over him though.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

I would also like to talk about KG Rabada here, who people hail as the best test bowler of this era,

Rabada averages 36 with the ball in Asian conditions, it is a disrespect to JJ Bumrah to be compared with Rabada coz he is effective everywhere.

I would rank

Bumrah > Cummins > Rabada

 

[Hitman]

Pretty small sample size till date. He has time to improve his record in India. Had done well in Pakistan though. I hope he tours Sri Lanka again.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Where did you get these pace stats from brother? Is it available for all bowlers?

There are quite a few analysts you can follow on Twitter and one on reddit who have access to Hawkeye data.

They keep putting out tidbits every now and then.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Sorry, No, he isn't a good bowler in Asian conditions.

He hasn't bowled a single match changing spell in India, his 30 odd average is also inflated with soft wickets.

In SriLanka, you can see his numbers are horrible.

He has given an ATG performance in Pakistan though so I would say you can't call him a rubbish bowler in Asia, he is a decent bowler in Asian conditions, I would take Starc over him though.

Cummins has never struck me as a smart man. Quite an average thinker but good skills with the ball. Needs to improve in Asia though otherwise he will be seen like Anderson.

 

[Buffet]

Cummins has never struck me as a smart man. Quite an average thinker but good skills with the ball. Needs to improve in Asia though otherwise he will be seen like Anderson.

Anderson averages 30-31 all away matches taken together.

Cummins averages 25-26 all away matches taken together.

Two different levels.

 

[kron]

Not really no. But he is Australia's second greatest ever bowler imo or Max 3rd after mcg and perhaps lillee.

Alderman was a trundler.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Cummins is not an ATG in Asia but certainly he is no the worst. Cummins is a work horse that gives him an extra edge.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

Anderson averages 30-31 all away matches taken together.

Cummins averages 25-26 all away matches taken together.

Two different levels.

But Anderson had a much bigger career - if we take last 10 years for example, Anderson has a very good away record. For me, if Asian batsmen need SENA performances then non-Asian bowlers need Asian performances otherwise it is not fair.

 

[DTrump]

No. Neither is Ambrose though. Does not matter beyond a point. Every bowler has his strong areas. Cummins beastly in Australia and South Africa. Strong in NZ/Eng and competitive in Asia.


He is quite easily among the top 20 test bowler post the Second world war.

Warne, mcgrath, cummins, lillee, lindwall
Ambrose, garner, marshall, holding, roberts.
Steyn, Pollock, donald
Wasim, Imran
Hadlee, Murali, Bumrah, Trueman

That's the top 19.

There are a dozen or so bowlers right behind this group fighting for that 20th spot. This does feel appropriate.

 

[DTrump]

But Anderson had a much bigger career - if we take last 10 years for example, Anderson has a very good away record. For me, if Asian batsmen need SENA performances then non-Asian bowlers need Asian performances otherwise it is not fair.

No. Anderson was averaging 30 after 100 tests. That is plain rubbish. Longevity cannot be a substitute for quality. He won't sniff the top 50 if we focus only on quality.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

No. Anderson was averaging 30 after 100 tests. That is plain rubbish. Longevity cannot be a substitute for quality. He won't sniff the top 50 if we focus only on quality.

I agree with you about Anderson as a whole but in the last 10 years which is what I mentioned in my post:



Anderson has 324 wickets @ 22.62. This is bigger than Cummins' career as of now.

 

[RizwanT20Champ]

No. Neither is Ambrose though.

 

[DTrump]

I agree with you about Anderson as a whole but in the last 10 years which is what I mentioned in my post:

View attachment 148915

Anderson has 324 wickets @ 22.62. This is bigger than Cummins' career as of now.

True. I don't think that is the right way to compare though.

After 65 Tests;

Cummins: 283 wickets @ 22.61
Strike-Rate: 46.47, ER: 2.92
5WI/10WM: 13/2

Anderson: 245 wickets @ 30.62
SR: 56.89, ER: 3.23
5WI/10WM: 11/1

Home

Cummins (36 Tests)
166 wickets @ 20.05
Anderson (39 Tests)
164 wickets @ 27

Away

Cummins (29 Tests)
117 wickets @ 26.24
Anderson (29 Tests)
81 wickets @ 37

Like you can see, the gulf is huge. Anderson longevity is unparalleled. Using that as a beating stuck is unfair. Jimmy deserves a lot of credit for what he did but we cannot just look at the good parts.

 

[Devadwal]

 

[sweep_shot]

Cummins is an Aussie great without a doubt.

Won an ODI WC as a captain.
Won a WTC as a captain.
Won a World T20 as a player.
283 Test wickets.

 

[Ab Fan]

No. Neither is Ambrose though. Does not matter beyond a point. Every bowler has his strong areas. Cummins beastly in Australia and South Africa. Strong in NZ/Eng and competitive in Asia.


He is quite easily among the top 20 test bowler post the Second world war.

Warne, mcgrath, cummins, lillee, lindwall
Ambrose, garner, marshall, holding, roberts.
Steyn, Pollock, donald
Wasim, Imran
Hadlee, Murali, Bumrah, Trueman

That's the top 19.

There are a dozen or so bowlers right behind this group fighting for that 20th spot. This does feel appropriate.

If you are counting Lindwall and Trueman, I guess you should also count Barnes, Davidson, Laker, Bill O’Reily, Bedser, Benaud etc as well.

If I start from 1970 onwards, that’s 17. Count Waqar, Walsh, Anderson and that’s your 20.

 

[Ab Fan]

Winning trophy is good but need to look at his contributions also. Can’t just say, he won this so he is great. He has his own strong arguments to go down as ATG but this particular reasoning is not good enough.

Cummins has no impact on WT20 win. That tournament credit goes to Hazelwood and Warner.

Cummins delivered in ODI World Cup Final 2023 but otherwise he was not very good in this tournament and hasn’t been great in this format either.

It is Test cricketer in him as well as his role as captain/leader after taking the captaincy from Tim Paine which is what makes his legacy worth remembering.

 

[Devadwal]

Winning trophy is good but need to look at his contributions also. Can’t just say, he won this so he is great. He has his own strong arguments to go down as ATG but this particular reasoning is not good enough.

Cummins has no impact on WT20 win. That tournament credit goes to Hazelwood and Warner.

Cummins delivered in ODI World Cup Final 2023 but otherwise he was not very good in this tournament and hasn’t been great in this format either.

It is Test cricketer in him as well as his role as captain/leader after taking the captaincy from Tim Paine which is what makes his legacy worth remembering.

Sreesanth had won a world cup and a world t20 so he is a indian great according to logic of some delusion posters
.

 

[Ab Fan]

Sreesanth had won a world cup and a world t20 so he is a indian great according to logic of some delusion posters
.

Winning a trophy is an achievement but credit needs to be given to standout performers. While rating players, all those who have performed and delivered at top level should be rewarded.

Australia won ODI World Cup in 2015. Standout performers - Starc, Smith

Australia won T20I World Cup 2021.
Standout performers - Hazelwood, Warner

Australia won WTC Final 2023.
Standout performer - Head, Smith

Australia won ODI WC 2023.
Standout performer - Maxwell, Head, Cummins(as captain)


Cummins purely as a fast bowler is not yet at the top level of the fast bowling greats but his achievements and legacy as a cricketer certainly puts him right up there as one of the best players of this generation.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Wow...i really didn't know that before

 

[Mamoon]

Cummins is the modern day Imran Khan.

A fantastic bowler, highly charismatic and intelligent leader and no mug with the bat either. Imran definitely was superior with the bat though, especially in the last few years of his career.

Cummins has underachieved big time with the bat. His Test and ODI averages of 17 & 14 don’t do justice to his batting. He should be averaging 25+.

He still has 5-6 years left and he could contribute a lot with the bat in the coming years.