Really enjoying the burning and sulking of the fans from a mediocre team...they are trying too hard
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Can Ravichandran Ashwin be one of the indian greats?
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Really enjoying the burning and sulking of the fans from a mediocre team...they are trying too hard
jnaveen1980
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He is already an ATG with 8 man of the series awards.
jnaveen1980
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So history will have only 11 ATGs? That doesn't sound logical.
sensible-indian-fan
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Really enjoying the burning and sulking of the fans from a mediocre team...they are trying too hard
Bolne de yaar.
Usko takleef ho rahi hai.
Played a crucial role with bat and ball in 2 series victories in Aus but somehow is mediocre there.
There's a reason why Bilal bhai's predictions all go wrong.
He can obviously think but he is unable to separate reality from his emotions.
When facts get uncomfortable, he hides behind raw stats but that will blow up one day or the other as it always does.
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Ashwin being is an ATG spinner is up for debate.
But ATG AR....no debate lol.
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Legendary Sri Lanka spinner Muttiah Muralitharan who remains Test cricket’s most prolific wicket-taker has also won the man of the series awards the most number of times. Murali, who finished with jaw-dropping 800 wickets in a storied Test career, took home 11 man of the series awards (61 series) followed by South Africa great Jacques Kallis (61 series) who has nine such honours against his name.
Imran Khan is third with eight awards in 28 series. Ashwin has completed the feat while playing in his 30th series of Test career that began in 2011.
“My growth as a cricketer is a direct synonym to the person I am,” Ashwin said on Sunday. “I want to keep evolving, keep learning and that’s my second nature, directly proportional to the kind of cricketer I am and whatever I do, the best that I can be.”
Ashwin was all praise for his team after they entered the final of the ICC World Test Championship. “The series win is a testament to the fact that this is a really good Indian cricket team. That’s all I would like to say,” he said.
India have also reclaimed the top spot in Test rankings.
https://www.cricketcountry.com/news...rd-with-eighth-man-of-the-series-award-972827
Imran Khan is third with eight awards in 28 series. Ashwin has completed the feat while playing in his 30th series of Test career that began in 2011.
“My growth as a cricketer is a direct synonym to the person I am,” Ashwin said on Sunday. “I want to keep evolving, keep learning and that’s my second nature, directly proportional to the kind of cricketer I am and whatever I do, the best that I can be.”
Ashwin was all praise for his team after they entered the final of the ICC World Test Championship. “The series win is a testament to the fact that this is a really good Indian cricket team. That’s all I would like to say,” he said.
India have also reclaimed the top spot in Test rankings.
https://www.cricketcountry.com/news...rd-with-eighth-man-of-the-series-award-972827
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Another MOS for Ashwin where he contributed with bat and ball at the same time.
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Wow, Only 2 players have more MOS than Ashwin, and look at Ashwin's total number of matches. By the time he hangs up his boot, he may have more MOS than even Murali.
He has contributed with bat and ball to get some other series to get MOS. Even in Aus, series win, he helped with the bat.
ATG all-rounder for me.
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Wow, Only 2 players have more MOS than Ashwin, and look at Ashwin's total number of matches. By the time he hangs up his boot, he may have more MOS than even Murali.
He has contributed with bat and ball to get some other series to get MOS. Even in Aus, series win, he helped with the bat.
ATG all-rounder for me.
cricketjoshila
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Bolne de yaar.
Usko takleef ho rahi hai.
Played a crucial role with bat and ball in 2 series victories in Aus but somehow is mediocre there.
There's a reason why Bilal bhai's predictions all go wrong.
He can obviously think but he is unable to separate reality from his emotions.
When facts get uncomfortable, he hides behind raw stats but that will blow up one day or the other as it always does.
----
Ashwin being is an ATG spinner is up for debate.
But ATG AR....no debate lol.
He is still in denial that Ashwin is greater in tests than Ajmal or Shah.
Mamoon
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By the time he retires, there will be no doubt over his status as the greatest Asian Test all-rounder of all time.
He is one of the greatest match-winners ever and would probably get into every team in history, including the great West Indies (they didn’t have a proper spinner) and Australia where he would be a great partner for Warne in Asia.
He is one of the greatest match-winners ever and would probably get into every team in history, including the great West Indies (they didn’t have a proper spinner) and Australia where he would be a great partner for Warne in Asia.
jnaveen1980
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He very narrowly missed 9th one.
jnaveen1980
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Unlike Jadeja/Axar who relies largely on the natural variations from the surface, Ashwin creates his own variations which is why i rate him above other Indian spinners in the history.
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I am sure he has made many great contributions outside of these 8 MOS, but to be a standout in the 8 series in 70 odd tests is fantastic.
People talk a lot about Ind being ruthless at home in the last 10 years. It has a lot to do with Ashwin and Jadeja. Yes, even earlier it was hard to win series in India, but you could draw or win some tests. Right now, visiting teams don't avoid losing in most tests. Indian batting is surely poorer. The only reason they have been ruthless at home is their bowling being far better.
Thunderbolt14
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In my mind the distinction is GOAT (Gavaskar, Sachin), ATG (Dev, Kohli, Dravid), and Indian ATG (Ashwin, Sehwag).
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Imran Khan’s average difference in that series, that’s brutal.
jnaveen1980
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Under the captaincy of Kohli his performance dramatically improved overseas just like the performance of other bowlers.
Under Kohli away from home
sensible-indian-fan
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Either denial or salty.
Needlessly prolonging his misery.
Some real cognitive dissonance going on.
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Yah, credit should be given to Kohli for the change in the bowling unit mindset. Kohli tries to win every test and you do only by backing your bowlers.
Ab Fan
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Ashwin also has about 2800 runs and counting with 5 test hundreds to his name. Sehwag in contrast was part timer with bowl.
In terms of their primary skills, both genuine match winners in Asia.
Thunderbolt14
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History should have 11-15 GOAT cricketers. 11 to make the pure GOAT team plus 3-4 who couldn’t make the GOAT team but there is no difference in ability (for example Richard Hadlee might not make the GOAT team as the all rounder quota might be fulfilled by Imran, but Hadlee was a GOAT cricketer). From India you have Gavaskar (GOAT opener) and Tendulkar and from Pakistan you have Imran and Wasim.
1. Sunil Gavaskar
2. Matthew Hayden
3. Donald Bradman
4. Sachin Tendulkar
5. Brian Lara
6. Adam Gilchrist (wk)
7. Imran Khan
8. Wasim Akram
9. Malcolm Marshall
10. Shane Warne
11. Glenn McGrath
This is the rough list of GOAT cricketers that most people will agree on as the GOAT XI (everyone has their own preferences so this lineup might change a little bit here or there). All in all you can add maybe 4 more names to this list to cultivate the list of greatest cricketers ever. You have Hadlee, Murali, and Sobers for example.
Next, you have the genuine ATG cricketers who do not make the GOAT list. These guys are just below GOAT tier — Dale Steyn, Virat Kohli, Steve Smith, Jacques Kallis, AB de Villiers, Shaun Pollock, Viv Richards, Curtly Ambrose, Shoaib Akhtar, Ricky Ponting, Ian Botham, Kapil Dev, Jack Hobbs, Rahul Dravid, and a few more. All of these guys have a genuine case to be GOAT cricketers, and were the undisputed number 1 in the world in their respective eras. They fall short from the GOAT XI for one reason or the other.
Ashwin comes in the next category. These guys are genuine ATG cricketers for their respective countries. Ravi Ashwin, Kevin Pietersen, Virender Sehwag, Javed Miandad, Mahela Jayawardene, Inzamam ul Haq, Shivnarine Chanderpaul, Waqar Younis, Dennis Lillee, Steve Waugh, MS Dhoni, James Anderson. (Some more names that I’ve left out).
These guys are must picks in the playing XIs of their countries. They make a case for being close to genuine ATG cricketers, but they are one level behind the likes of Kohli, Smith, Ambrose, AB, Ponting who are borderline GOAT cricketers.
Overall the distribution will be something like this:
GOAT - 15 cricketers
ATG - 20 cricketers
Country ATG - 30 cricketers
Ashwin is by this metric among the top 65 cricketers to have ever existed, which is a fair assessment.
Bhaag Viru Bhaag
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Best Indian all rounder since Kapil Dev. 
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No chance that Matthew Hayden is among the greatest openers of all time given how much he struggled in England, New Zealand, and South Africa (averaging less than 35 in those countries). His technique was too brittle against high quality swing bowling.
He was every bit as much a home track bully as Virender Sehwag.
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A decent break up even though I disagree with many relative positions.
For example,
I have rarely seen anyone rating Akhtar above Miandad when it comes to Pakistani great players.
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Akhtar is just a borderline country great for Pakistan, his fitness record counts massively against him.
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I was of the view that Rohit should be MoS, but you can't really argue against 32 wickets and a century of great significance.
Besides, I spent the last couple of hours re-watching various phases of this series and that was some display of artistry by Ashwin. Really beautiful spells of bowling
Besides, I spent the last couple of hours re-watching various phases of this series and that was some display of artistry by Ashwin. Really beautiful spells of bowling
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He was a good test bowler and gave an extra dimension to the Pakistani attack due to his pace. I also think that he was just a borderline Pakistani great due to having only 170 odd test wickets.
I don't rate him much in ODI format despite him getting hyped a lot. He was outside of the top 10 in ODI for the majority of his career.
sensible-indian-fan
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I think Kohli vs Dhoni here is a bit overblown.
Ashwin wasn't that good before.
Then he became good.
When Kohli took over as Indian captain, he dropped Ashwin for Karn Sharma in Adelaide. Ashwin worked on his game and by the end of the series, he was a changed bowler. That 2014 Aus tour was where he transformed.
He started uprooting trees in SL from ball 1.
Ashwin can say he was used defensively by Dhoni and it might be true upto a certain extent but that dude has a history of making excuses for failing.
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I don't think Kohli had much to do with spin, but for pace, I think his contributions are massively underrated. People talk about tactics and team selections, but Kohli really backs the pacers. It is visible on the ground. Sure, pacers can also get better with time, but the backing of the captain makes a huge difference.
I thought Root handled Bess poorly in this series. Not many fans talk about it.
Thunderbolt14
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Request to the mods not to delete this as I am bringing the discussion back to Ashwin by the end of this post.
Akhtar’s spells against the great Aussie and Indian batsmen will be remembered for centuries to come. He was the fastest bowler to ever walk this earth. Despite injuries, his stats and big-match performances were impeccable in Tests and ODIs. He is already remembered for bowling the sixth greatest ball of this century according to Cricinfo, mentioned in the same breath as Steyn, Murali, and Warne (the latter two being in my GOAT category). His best ever spells have racked up millions upon millions of views on robelinda etc — much more than even the names in my GOAT list — and Akhtar is perhaps the most popular non-Indian cricketer of all time. Lastly, Akhtar played in the most competitive batting era of all time and has his best spells against cricketers who make my GOAT and ATG lists like Dravid, Tendulkar, Gilchrist, and fell the likes of Lara. Without injuries, Akhtar was all set for a GOAT record against the GOAT batsmen. Unfortunately he must be demoted to “genuine ATG”.
Miandad will be forgotten as a Pakistan great as more and more ATG batsmen emerge over the years, but Akhtar will be remembered forever across the cricketing world even 200 years from now.
That’s just my opinion. Regarding Ashwin, he by the same criteria I mentioned above will count among the same elite tier as Miandad, Sehwag, Jayawardene. I think it all depends on how the rest of his career goes. It’s difficult to call otherwise. For all we know, he might hit a purple patch like Imran and average 50 with the bat and 20 with the ball for the next 5 years. That would truly elevate Ashwin to the great pantheons of history.
I was just trying to do a general breakup to show how one might go about sorting cricketers into GOAT/ATG/Country ATG categories. I don’t think the ATG tag (the middle one) is one that should be handed out cheaply.
jnaveen1980
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Not entirely true. Ishant forgot his main weapon of inswinger. He resorted to bowling bouncers, short of a length balls. Dhoni dictated his bowlers how to bowl. Dhoni is good on turning wickets. There is a collective improvement since Kohli took over. It is certainly not a coincidence.
jnaveen1980
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Exactly he used himself more than Bess. Dhoni was an atrocious captain in every which way overseas. He openly criticized his own bowlers.
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You've got it the other way around. I've been a part of a lot of British and Australian cricket forums and people there almost always rate Miandad highly from Pakistan, ahead of Akhtar. Miandad is probably the only Pakistani batsman that's recognised as an ATG worldwide.
Akhtar I always regarded as someone who could trouble any team and any batsman on his day through the sheer pace of his bowling, but his accuracy wasn't always up there with the best of bowlers like Wasim, McGrath, Steyn, etc., and so his record suffered against the two best batting sides of his era - Australia and India. Most would have Akhtar as a country great and Miandad as a worldwide great.
Also there's no way Hayden features in an ATG XI. Smith was a better opener than Hayden during his era alone, never mind about best ever openers. Hayden had similar technical flaws like Sehwag and both fall in the category of great openers who could destroy an opposition on their day, but had technical flaws and therefore were always vulnerable in conditions that were difficult for batting.
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I disagree on both Akhtar and Miandad.
Akhar was definitely an astonishingly watchable cricketer (as referenced by the number of fans he has and the corollary views on television and social media) but he was too erratic to be classed as an ATG, perhaps because longevity and consistency is criminally underrated by many modern fans. It's sheer guilelessness to categorize someone who played in the modern era and was only able to manage 40 odd test matches as a genuine great of the game.
Akhtar was (and remains) a capricious individual who had little discipline and often put the interests of self over team. One or two great spells don't change that. I find it insulting to other genuine Pakistani greats of the game including Miandad that you have put Akhtar on that pedestal.
In my view, Shoaib Akhtar was not a better bowler than Ian Bishop or Shane Bond, both of whom also had careers ravaged by injuries.
Miandad will never be forgotten as a test great simply because he was the first great Pakistani batsman, in much the same way that Sunil Gavaskar's contributions to Indian cricket will never be forgotten. It matters not a jot how many future great test batsmen emerge out of Pakistan.
I agree on Ashwin though, his away record needs to improve considerably for him to be in the conversation as a genuine ATG.
Bilal7
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Really enjoying the burning and sulking of the fans from a mediocre team...they are trying too hard
The only ones burning here are the over-emotional fans of someone who'll be benched for Jadeja by the time the next SENA series arrives.
This is too easy for me. You guys really need to go back to shilling for Kohli, that man isn't easy to discredit.
Bolne de yaar.
Usko takleef ho rahi hai.
Played a crucial role with bat and ball in 2 series victories in Aus but somehow is mediocre there.
There's a reason why Bilal bhai's predictions all go wrong.
He can obviously think but he is unable to separate reality from his emotions.
When facts get uncomfortable, he hides behind raw stats but that will blow up one day or the other as it always does.
----
Ashwin being is an ATG spinner is up for debate.
But ATG AR....no debate lol.
Typical frilly nonsense in the face of cold, hard facts. Ashwin averages ~40 with the ball and ~20 with the bat in Australia. One good innings with bat and ball does not make him an ATG all-rounder, just like the couple of good performances that Ben Stokes' had in this series do not override the fact that he was generally mediocre.
These are not predictions, these are facts. These are numbers. You clearly worship at the altar of Ashwin which is why you are unable to see that this "all-rounder" averages more with the ball than with the bat in SENA, along with having a grand total of zero centuries and zero five-fors in these four countries. He's not even a guaranteed starter in the side outside Asia! Jadeja was Kohli's first choice and Ashwin was picked in Australia because the better all-rounder was injured.
You are right, Ashwin being an ATG is not even up for debate. There is just no argument for him, apart from home bullying.
Bilal7
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The most ironic post of all-time.
Yes, good. Please stick to comparing Ashwin with Yasir Shah and stop pretending that he is fit as ATG cricketer. Hopefully, Ashwin can also get a ten-for in SENA soon, something both Yasir and Ajmal can lay claim to.
I like how you specified test cricket. Nice the delusions have an upper-limit.
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Bhaag Viru Bhaag
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It is my wish to see Ashwin as captain of Indian test team. I hope I get to see that before he retires. He is very intelligent. Want to see his field placings and bowling rotations.
Bilal7
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It is my wish to see Ashwin as captain of Indian test team. I hope I get to see that before he retires. He is very intelligent. Want to see his field placings and bowling rotations.
Yes, he is an intelligent cricketer and will make a good captain. I actually rate him quite highly in test cricket but, as evidenced by the above, he simply isn't an ATG.
Don't see Ashwin becoming captain though unless India get humiliated in England, with Rohit Sharma and Ajinkya Rahane getting dropped. He's probably fourth choice right now.
Bhaag Viru Bhaag
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I am not into distributing ATG statuses here like ladoos and gulaab jaamuns which some other fans do here based on their agenda.
Yeah chances of him becoming a captain are pretty slim because I don't think Kohli will play under him. May be next year who knows.
shaz619
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Ashwin did really well in Australia recently thought you’d give him more credit ?
Ab Fan
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I think in test cricket, Ashwin has surpassed Kapil Dev and is a better test cricketer than him. He is a Shaun Pollock level AR in my opinion.
His impact is massive in India's success since 2015 with both bat and bowl. 8 player of series in 78 tests is legendary stuff.
As for SENA stats, Jadeja averages in 20s with bowl in Australia and South Africa but I simply don't think he is as good as Ashwin with the bowl.
His impact is massive in India's success since 2015 with both bat and bowl. 8 player of series in 78 tests is legendary stuff.
As for SENA stats, Jadeja averages in 20s with bowl in Australia and South Africa but I simply don't think he is as good as Ashwin with the bowl.
Bilal7
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He did well. A fine cricketer overall. Is that enough to put him in the same category as Imran, Kallis and Sobers?
No.
Bhaag Viru Bhaag
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Better than Imran, Kallis and Sobers? Who said that? I know who called him better than Kapil Dev but at least these guys should look at the kind of teams and bowling line ups each player played against.
cricketjoshila
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Ashwin = Ajmal plus Yasir Shah in tests - the failed dope test and chucking.
shaz619
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As an all rounder I don’t think he compares to those names, it is ridiculous to believe that; I doubt any respectable consensus would agree with that. But surely he is arguably the best offie of all time
Bilal7
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Better than Imran, Kallis and Sobers? Who said that? I know who called him better than Kapil Dev but at least these guys should look at the kind of teams and bowling line ups each player played against.
If you call Ashwin an ATG, you're claiming that he's on the same level as these ATG all-rounders. You can have a look at this thread and find people doing just that.
Yes, much better. Not something I agree with but good to see that Ashwin fans apni aukaat par aagaye.
shaz619
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He is better then Ajmal much easier to make that comparison, Yasir Shah is the best leggie of his era though and has been utilised in a variety of ways both attacking/defensively and has primarily led Pak as the bowling spearhead, therefore his numbers don’t always give the whole picture.
Thunderbolt14
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I am not into distributing ATG statuses here like ladoos and gulaab jaamuns which some other fans do here based on their agenda.
Yeah chances of him becoming a captain are pretty slim because I don't think Kohli will play under him. May be next year who knows.
According to some people all 11 players in the Indian cricket team right now are ATGs. Some players are also GOAT such as Pant (=Gilchrist) and Ashwin (=Imran Khan).
If Intikhab Alam was playing for India today (he was brought up in Hoshiarpur by the way) I am sure he would be compared to Garfield Sobers
Bilal7
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Yeah, I'm honestly surprised that Ashwin has gone from competing with (and being outbowled, at times) Shah, Herath and Lyon to now being put on a pedestal he's just not worthy of.
I consider Muralitharan an off-spinner so there is no argument for Ashwin there either.
Bilal7
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Better than Ajmal in test cricket. Ajmal was a better ODI and T20 bowler than Ashwin and seven of his generations, however.
Ab Fan
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All-rounders by tiers:-
1. Sobers, Kallis, Imran, Hadlee ( among top 1-10 cricketers ever)
2. Botham, Pollock, Ashwin, Kapil ( among 15-25 cricketers ever)
3. Jadeja, Stokes, Cairns, Flintoff, Tony Greig ( among 40-60 cricketers ever)
Below that, we have others that don't count much.
1. Sobers, Kallis, Imran, Hadlee ( among top 1-10 cricketers ever)
2. Botham, Pollock, Ashwin, Kapil ( among 15-25 cricketers ever)
3. Jadeja, Stokes, Cairns, Flintoff, Tony Greig ( among 40-60 cricketers ever)
Below that, we have others that don't count much.
Ab Fan
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Shakib in tier- 3 also.
Bhaag Viru Bhaag
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Yeah some of them are handing out ATG statuses so easily especially to Indian cricketers.
Bhaag Viru Bhaag
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According to some people all 11 players in the Indian cricket team right now are ATGs. Some players are also GOAT such as Pant (=Gilchrist) and Ashwin (=Imran Khan).
If Intikhab Alam was playing for India today (he was brought up in Hoshiarpur by the way) I am sure he would be compared to Garfield Sobers
Am I also an ATG of PPCL? [MENTION=145503]Mueez[/MENTION]
Bhaag Viru Bhaag
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Mesozoic
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Can't believe people are comparing Ashwin, the greatest spinner of this generation to a disgraced cheat like Ajmal , who threw more balls in his career than he bowled....
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Coming to the topic, I don't think Ashwin is good enough to be called an ATG all rounder. Spinner definitely yes...but that's about it.
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Fair enough, let’s agree to disagree. My take is that I don’t think Miandad (or even Sehwag, who was fantastic, for that matter) belongs in the same class as Smith, Ponting, and Kohli, just as I don’t think Ashwin belongs in the same class as Pollock, Dev, or Botham.
It was more in reference to Ashwin that I made that list - I didn’t mean to draw a direct comparison between Akhtar and Miandad. You’re free to demote Akhtar as a country great. I made an exception for him compared to Bond and Bishop (country greats) because there is only one fastest bowler in history. Akhtar, by the way, also lasted twice as long and played 100 more international matches than Bond — it Bond had played that long he’d be a genuine ATG too.
Ashwin is currently on track to end up a genuine country great like Sehwag or Bond, but he does have the potential to ascend to that next tier. He can easily keep playing for another 5-6 years as long as he maintains fitness. That’s a long time and roughly equates to 50-60 Tests. Let’s see whether he has it in him to make his mark. Maybe he can achieve an Imran or Anderson style purple patch, you never know — spinners, especially smart ones, always age like fine wine.
Ab Fan
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I will replace Kallis with Kapil.
Disagree. Kallis is one of the greatest All-rounders ever. Kapil is up there with the greatest ever in LOIs but in tests, he is just an ATG and last among that quartet.
However, I may consider adding Gilchrist, Sangakkara, AB de Villiers and Andy Flower in the list of all-rounders too as keeping and batting are also multiple roles.
In future, a certain Rishabh Pant may also qualify.
Thunderbolt14
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I am hesitant to put Ashwin as greater than even Saqlain as a pure offie. Saqlain gets extra points for inventing the doosra and being one of the few in history to have bowled it with a legal action. And Saqlain was absolutely destructive during the years he was active, before his knees gave way.
Ashwin as an all-rounder is what puts him ahead of other offies — his batting ability. You are right that there has been a really sudden jump from being compared to Shah, Herath, and Lyon to being named as the greatest ever, that generates a lot of cognitive dissonance which doesn’t make sense to me.
Some genuinely good performances in recent months; if he keeps it up, there is definitely a place waiting for him in the history books. But not yet.
Thunderbolt14
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Ashwin is in tier 3 and Stokes is in Tier 4. Ashwin is not remotely comparable to the great Kapil Dev. And Stokes does not hold a candle to Flintoff!
cricketjoshila
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In test matches there is no comparison, Ashwin is far ahead of Saqi. In fact, he is ahead of every offie not named Muralitharan.
Ab Fan
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He is way ahead of the likes of Flintoff and Cairns as test bowler. You are underrating him. 8 player of the series award in 78 tests is legendary stuff.
Also, Stokes is as good as that guy with 3 fifers in his entire career.
Bilal7
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So Ashwin, with his mediocre performances in SENA and having never been tested against Pakistani or Indian batsmen is on the level of Shane Warne and Muttiah Muralitharan.
Someone please explain what these guys are basing this off of and why they are so desperate to stick the ATG tag on this player? His record consists of home bullying and some good performances against Sri Lanka and the West Indies. He will probably be benched yet again for Jadeja when India go overseas. He has spent a good part of his career being an inferior test bowler to the likes of Ajmal, Herath, Shah and Lyon. Moeen Ali outbowled him in England.
I prefer Saqlain because I love the doosra and Saqlain was the master. He also had some legendary performances against India, which was arguably the strongest batting lineup against spin ever.
Bilal7
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What's the breakdown of his MOTS awards? How many came at home on dustbowls?
Thunderbolt14
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As a bowler yes, he is far ahead, but Ashwin is also far behind as a Test batsman. All put together, he is in tier 3 on that list comfortably in the same category as Flintoff and Cairns.
Ab Fan
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6 at home( 1 each vs SENAW and 1 more vs NZ) and 2 away in SL( Herath playing) and Windies.
But based on 8 MOS, he should be in the league of Imran, Kallis, Hadlee, Murali and Sobers.
However, since his SENA record is not as great, I will put him a level below above mentioned names and that means on par with Kumble and Kapil as a bowler and overall an ATG.
Based on the impact only, he is undoubtedly a lower tier ATG like Shaun Pollock and James Anderson.
Ab Fan
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Nikhil_cric
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Ashwin is a better test spinner than Saqlain. His record is much better. He was a crucial part of 2 test wins in Australia and has generally been very good for an off spinner. Peak Saqlain (1995-99) was a much better ODI spinner though.
Last Monetarist
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Saqlain was an average test bowler save for one series in India. There's no real comparison with Ashwin at all.
Mesozoic
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So Ashwin, with his mediocre performances in SENA and having never been tested against Pakistani or Indian batsmen is on the level of Shane Warne and Muttiah Muralitharan.
So you consider Murali an ATG. Fine...
Ashwin in SENA -
Played - 19 Tests
Bowling average - 40.1
Murali in Australia, South Africa and India -
Played - 22 Tests
Bowling average - 41.8
I mean i'm not saying Ashwin is better or something let's have that discussion some other time...but how can Murali be qualified as an ATG spinner with such mediocre stats away from home against three of the best Test teams of his time but not Ashwin ?
You think others can't beat you at your own game of agenda driven filtering?
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Nikhil_cric
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Saqlain was pretty good in Australia in 99/00 apart from that India series too. Problem for Saqi , and most Pakistani spinners, is the lack of longevity imho.
Ab Fan
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Most Indian fans rate Saqlain highly based on what they saw of him in India. For rest of the country, they basically follow stats. However, Ashwin is clearly better as far as test cricket is concerned.
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He was average on that tour apart from the first innings in Hobart. He failed when it really mattered on days 4 and 5 of that test.
street cricketer
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I suspect Ashwin's career as a bowler will mirror Anderson's career. Like Ashwin, Anderson's ability away from home was questioned by a lot of people. And like Ashwin, Anderson didn't perform away from home well in the initial part of his career.
But Anderson recently has silenced his critics by performing well in Asia and he has aged like fine wine. It's a career of two halves for him, in the recent years, he has been as good as any quick bowler in asia. Similarly Ashwin silenced his critics by playing a major role in helping India winning a series in Australia. The tour to Australia in 2014 proved to be a turning point for him after which he transformed into a very good bowler even away from home. His numbers in the last 3 years in SENA countries are very good for a finger spinner in unfavourable conditions.
But because the numbers in the initial part of his career in SENA countries were poor, his overall numbers will not reflect the massive improvement he has made away from home and people are going to use lazy tropes like "Ashwin needs improve as a bowler in SENA conditions" when he has already made the improvement 3-4 years back.
But Anderson recently has silenced his critics by performing well in Asia and he has aged like fine wine. It's a career of two halves for him, in the recent years, he has been as good as any quick bowler in asia. Similarly Ashwin silenced his critics by playing a major role in helping India winning a series in Australia. The tour to Australia in 2014 proved to be a turning point for him after which he transformed into a very good bowler even away from home. His numbers in the last 3 years in SENA countries are very good for a finger spinner in unfavourable conditions.
But because the numbers in the initial part of his career in SENA countries were poor, his overall numbers will not reflect the massive improvement he has made away from home and people are going to use lazy tropes like "Ashwin needs improve as a bowler in SENA conditions" when he has already made the improvement 3-4 years back.
Mesozoic
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So you consider Murali an ATG. Fine...
Ashwin in SENA -
Played - 19 Tests
Bowling average - 40.1
Murali in Australia, South Africa and India -
Played - 22 Tests
Bowling average - 41.8
I mean i'm not saying Ashwin is better or something let's have that discussion some other time...but how can Murali be qualified as an ATG spinner with such mediocre stats away from home against three of the best Test teams of his time but not Ashwin ?
You think others can't beat you at your own game of agenda driven filtering?
[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]
What happened bro? Waiting for your answer.
Is Murali an ATG or not?
sensible-indian-fan
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The only ones burning here are the over-emotional fans of someone who'll be benched for Jadeja by the time the next SENA series arrives.
This is too easy for me. You guys really need to go back to shilling for Kohli, that man isn't easy to discredit.
Typical frilly nonsense in the face of cold, hard facts. Ashwin averages ~40 with the ball and ~20 with the bat in Australia. One good innings with bat and ball does not make him an ATG all-rounder, just like the couple of good performances that Ben Stokes' had in this series do not override the fact that he was generally mediocre.
These are not predictions, these are facts. These are numbers. You clearly worship at the altar of Ashwin which is why you are unable to see that this "all-rounder" averages more with the ball than with the bat in SENA, along with having a grand total of zero centuries and zero five-fors in these four countries. He's not even a guaranteed starter in the side outside Asia! Jadeja was Kohli's first choice and Ashwin was picked in Australia because the better all-rounder was injured.
You are right, Ashwin being an ATG is not even up for debate. There is just no argument for him, apart from home bullying.
The only ones burning here are the over-emotional fans of someone who'll be benched for Jadeja by the time the next SENA series arrives.
haha sure.
Keep telling yourself that buddy.
After all your failed predictions and theories bombing, you need to sleep at night.
Glad I can be of help to you.
The best part is you THINK you are good at debating and no one is able to counter your amazing logic lol.
Makes me chuckle.
Yeah who cares if players actually improve.
Ashwin averages 29 in last SENA cycle.
But but but but but he averages 40 in SENA overall.
I remember you going on and on about how Lyon is sooooo far ahead of Ashwin in the 2014 series.
I just pointed out how both of them had the SAME stats in the games they played with Ash bowling with farrr inferior bowlers.
What happened next was comedy gold.
That was too much truth for you so you literally blocked it out and resorted to but but but "he got dropped for Karn Sharma" when the whole world knows that was a crazy bad decision.
Of course.
India is a top team.
Even players like Ashwin arent guaranteed a spot unlike certain others who can average 80 in a country with 4 rpo and still play all the games.
---
Your arguments are flimsy.
Ashwin in his recent SENA tour has achieved the following:
1. Played a huge role in setting up the Centurion game.
2. Played a huge role in setting up Edgbaston game.
3. Won us the Adelaide 2008 test.
4. Setup the Adelaide 2020 test which we unfortunately lost.
5. Won us the MCG 2020 test.
6. Saved the SCG 2021 test.
The ONLY failure we can point out is Southampton and maybe Centurion second innings and he was injured in both times.
So I have been graceful to give you the but but but argument myself.
Keep bleating about it.
Must be killing you that no one buys your theories while SIF ended up being proven right in the end.
Bhaijaan
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Ashwin is an ATG test bowler already but he has never been a genuine AR. People tend to look at statistics and rate all rounders accordingly which is a very bad way of judging AR ability of a player.
A great AR selects himself in the XI both as a a specialist batsman or a bowler and a good AR should be one who would not look completely out of place as a specialist in either role.
Ashwin is not a Top 50 level batsman in India alone. Let alone world cricket where 500 blokes are better batsmen than him. Majority of his runs have come on very good batting surfaces. As a batsman he cannot be trusted with much.
Ben Stokes is the best AR in the world and on his way to becoming one of the best ever.
Neither of Ashwin or Shakib are anywhere near Ben Stokes as ARs.
Jadeja currently is closer to Stokes than Shakib or Ashwin.
Sadly Hardik doesn't bowl as good now as he used to otherwise he would have been in the conversation.
As for where things stand in #AsianBloc ARs legacy, Kapil Dev and Imran are way ahead..
A great AR selects himself in the XI both as a a specialist batsman or a bowler and a good AR should be one who would not look completely out of place as a specialist in either role.
Ashwin is not a Top 50 level batsman in India alone. Let alone world cricket where 500 blokes are better batsmen than him. Majority of his runs have come on very good batting surfaces. As a batsman he cannot be trusted with much.
Ben Stokes is the best AR in the world and on his way to becoming one of the best ever.
Neither of Ashwin or Shakib are anywhere near Ben Stokes as ARs.
Jadeja currently is closer to Stokes than Shakib or Ashwin.
Sadly Hardik doesn't bowl as good now as he used to otherwise he would have been in the conversation.
As for where things stand in #AsianBloc ARs legacy, Kapil Dev and Imran are way ahead..
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sensible-indian-fan
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So you consider Murali an ATG. Fine...
Ashwin in SENA -
Played - 19 Tests
Bowling average - 40.1
Murali in Australia, South Africa and India -
Played - 22 Tests
Bowling average - 41.8
I mean i'm not saying Ashwin is better or something let's have that discussion some other time...but how can Murali be qualified as an ATG spinner with such mediocre stats away from home against three of the best Test teams of his time but not Ashwin ?
You think others can't beat you at your own game of agenda driven filtering?
[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]
What happened bro? Waiting for your answer.
Is Murali an ATG or not?
Damn
)Good work.
Why you no make life easy for him?
Let's see what comedy gold he comes up with next.
God forbid if Ashwin does well in WTC and/or England series.....I hope he will be alright.
Bhaijaan
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For that matter, neither is Jaq Kallis anywhere near Kapil, Imran, Botham.
Having the luxury to bowl short busts, mostly on South African pitches is same as Ashwin's luxury of piling on runs on flat pitches against average to poor bowling line ups.
Having the luxury to bowl short busts, mostly on South African pitches is same as Ashwin's luxury of piling on runs on flat pitches against average to poor bowling line ups.
cricketjoshila
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[MENTION=129948]Bilal7[/MENTION]
What happened bro? Waiting for your answer.
Is Murali an ATG or not?
When Ajmal tested to be a chucker, he went invisible m
cricketjoshila
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Damn
Good work.
Why you no make life easy for him?
Let's see what comedy gold he comes up with next.
God forbid if Ashwin does well in WTC and/or England series.....I hope he will be alright.
This is like a Ashwin delivery, invited to drive and then bowled through the gate.
sensible-indian-fan
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Only balanced ARs do that.
Like Flintoff, Stokes, Shakib, Cairns.
Now Jaddu.
Kallis, Sobers and co won't be picked for his bowling.
Pollock, Ashwin won't be picked for his batting.
Ashwin looks SHAKY as a batsman but he has played a pivotal role in MANY of our series wins.
SL 2015
WI 2016
Aus 2018
Aus 2020
And then we have Aus 2011, Eng 2014 - he was damn good as a bat but team was beyond hopeless.
Even SA 2018 - He played only 4 innings and supported Kohli against some tough bowling.
This is all on top of what he has done at home.
The body of work is immense.
How many ARs in history will have this with their weaker suit even if they looked a lot more solid?
----
As a bowler, Ashwin doesn't have the body of work to be called an ATG in the strictest sense.
I mean it depends on definition.
If we define Kumble as ATG, then Ashwin is too.
If not, then Ashwin ain't.
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