I want to take a separate post to talk about allrounders.
It's actually more complicated than judging a batsman or a bowler.
Why? Cos there are 3 types of ARs: Batting, bowling and more balanced AR.
And it's hard to find a singular metric to judge them which gives scope for a LOT of subjectivity which in turn produces a lot of errors.
There are 3 factors which ARs can be judged:
1. Stats.
2. Eye test.
3. Impact. This need not necessarily MATCH with stats.....case in point Ben Stokes, who may not have the killer bowling stats but he delivers some of the most crucial blows with the ball.
I believe there is also a 4th factor which plays a HUGE role in how ARs are judged (this applies even for bats & bowlers tbh).
And that's called PERCEPTION.
This is so powerful that people (including me) will believe it without questioning even if reality could be different. I will get back to this in a bit.
So acknowledging all these challenges, let me move forward:
Allrounders usually have a strong and weak suit. And in almost 99% of the cases, their weak suit won't be good enough to get them a spot in a top team.
Lets take a look at the top ARs and see if they can get into the team as a batsman & bowler
1. Kapil averages 31 with bat. Won't get into any team as a pure bat.
2. Hadlee averages 27 with the bat. Same case.
3. Kallis averages less than 2 wickets per test match inspite of playing in SA. He ain't getting into any team as a bowler.
4. Sobers averages 2.5 wickets per test. Same situation.
5. Botham averages 33 with the bat in the end. He was a legendary batsman in his prime but across his entire career, he couldn't have played as a pure bat in a top team.
6. Flintoff with his batting average of 31 and less than 3 wickets per game ain't getting as a batsman or bowler in ANY top team. Of course, he was a different player in his peak as a bowler.
7. Shakib (yet to check his numbers against non-minnows) averages 39 with the bat and 31 with the ball. Will struggle to get into a good team as a pure bat. There are batsman in top teams who average less but they usually don't hold their spot for long. Regardless, Shakib is unique in the sense he can almost get into a team as a batsman or bowler (assuming his numbers hold up for non-minnows).
8. Imran (as good a bat he is) still averages 37 with the bat. He too might struggle to get into a top team purely as a bat across his entire career (but then there were periods where he was a bloody good batsman so we will get to that in a minute).
So let's get this myth out of the way.
The job of ARs is NOT to play as a pure bat & bowler.
One, it takes incredible ability to do that.
Two, even if they do that, chances are they will burn out (like Botham did). Or have be just above average in both instead of being absolutely great in one suit.
Now let's talk about bowling ARs and their batting ability:
Kapil averages 28 runs per innings.
Botham averages 32 runs per innings.
Hadlee averages 23 runs per innings.
Imran averages 30 runs per innings.
These are the numbers of UNQUESTIONABLY ATG ARs.
Of course, yes not outs matter (which boosts up Imran's average) but so does scoring enough runs to make an impact.
Now let's take Imran's batting numbers cos he did have an insane peak
From 1971 to 1981, he averages 24 with the bat (21 runs per innings).
From 1982 to 1992, he averaged 51 with the bat (37 runs per innings).
In the first period, he obviously couldn't have played as a pure bat in this period
which is what I was referring to in my earlier post.
In the second period, he would have got into a top team (in that era) as a pure batter. One of the main reasons why he is in contention with Sobers for the GOAT AR spot.
There's also this perception in PP (among some) that he was a super premium batsman in this period. While he was defo good, he wasn't anywhere near the best of the era. He scored 2500 runs in this period and among the top 50 batters, he is placed at 26th or 27th when you take runs per innings stats.
Not undermining Imran, but just clearing up a common misconception which [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] constantly mentions too.
Imran's peak breakdown
Everyone quotes him averages 51 with the bat and 19 with the ball.
That's true.
But even his peak is a tale of 2 halfs.
Part 1 - 1982 to 1986
Batting average of 41 (32 runs per innings)
Bowling average of whopping 14 (5.75 wickets per game)
Here he is playing as a bowler who can contribute very well with the bat.
Part 2 - 1987 to 1992
Batting average of whopping 59.69 with (41 runs per innings).
Bowling average of 27 (80 wickets in 28 games with less than 3 wickets per game).
Here he was playing as a batsman who could bowl a BIT.
There's no question about Imran's greatness.
But even in his case, you can't say there was any period where he could have played both as a pure bowler and batsman. Maybe the 1982-86 period at best but not sure if 32 runs per innings would be enough to be a pure bat in a good team.
That's why we need to move away from that metric.
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As for comparison, no one is comparing Ashwin with Murali/Warne.
Or with Imran/Sobers.
But let me add a fresh perspective to this debate with 3 simple points.
Point 1 - Hadlee vs Ashwin with the bat
Hadlee averages 23 runs per innings. He is regarded as an ATG AR. Ashwin averages 24 runs per innings (with almost zero stat boosting and series defining performances). Yet he isn't an ATG AR.
Why is that? PERCEPTION.
We will readily accept Hadlee as an ATG AR cos he was part of a quartet yet we would wonder about Ashwin who guarantees us wins in Asia & WI. And helped us win 2 Aus tours. We still doubt it even though Ashwin shades Hadlee in runs per innings after doing nothing with the bat for 3 whole years.
Among all players in history, Ashwin has the highest MOS against top 8 teams in the least number of matches. Kallis & Murali are ahead cos they got a few against minnows (tho to be fair WI ain't that great in this era but they are much much better in their home and Ash got an MOS there).
Out of the 8 MOS, he performed with the bat and played a critical role in 3 series. Not to mention all the other series where he performed as an AR and narrowly missed MOS (WI 2013, Eng 2016, Aus 2020).
This is why perception runs so deep.
Point 2 - The view that Ashwin is an ATG spinner and not an ATG AR
Interesting view.
But I have a question.
What happens if Ashwin flops in Southampton (WTC finals) and then England tour?
Will he still be an ATG spinner?
Cos players can't go back once they become ATG.
Imho, this is another case of eye test playing tricks.
Ashwin as a bowler looks more like an ATG spinner than an ATG AR.
But output wise, it's the opposite.
I believe Ashwin is on track to be an ATG spinner but he ain't one (in the strictest sense imho).
On the other hand, Ashwin might look shaky as a batsman, but time & time again, he has delivered as an AR. His body of work in the AR front is unquestionable while as a pure bowler, there are defo things he has left to prove.
This is why I swing the opposite way (not that the other view is wrong per se...I get where people are coming from).
My methodology isn't all that flash but it's systematic, reliable and not prone to collapse in case future results aren't favourable. And most importantly, it doesn't fall prey to perception.
Because at the end of the day, output matters.
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