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Can this team do well in the Champions Trophy 2017?

mz123

mz123

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We have got a good opener, a good middle order, and a good bowling attack ? Will this team be able to be competitive in the champions trophy ?
 
Are you talking about the team that lost 4 - 1 in England, the venue of the CT, and captured the world record for most runs conceded in an innings just a few days ago?
 
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Yes if Akmal replaces Azhar. Also only one of Imad or Nawaz should be in the 11 since its in England.
 
Dios said:
Are you talking about the team that lost 4 - 1 in England, the venue of the CT, and captured the world record for most runs conceded in an innings just a few days ago?
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No we are talking about the team which lost to Afghanistan the other day.
 
In all seriousness, it's just a series against a severely depleted and demoralised West Indies team on favourable pitches. Maybe Pakistan have turned the corner in LOIs but need to see their performance against a competent LOI side before commenting.
 
This series is not indicative of anything

We can make this call after Australia series
 
Too early to comment...no indication yet....after Oz series we can assume...
 
You guys are letting a series at home vs a very very poor side with a tonne of off field issues hide the reality.

Pakistan wont go from a poor LO side to CT contenders due to one series vs the WI, especially when this WI side is so bad vs spin 200 would probably be a winning total.

Basically the only purpose of this series is to get ranking points and secure your grip on #8 spot in ODI's. If you use it to judge the actual quality of the team or certain players you're just going to disappoint yourselves.
 
Yes. Sack Azhar, Sarfaraz captain. Partner Umar with Sharjeel. If this happens, we'll be very competitive down under, 3-2 either way.
 
Yes this team can do well if we have a couple of Changes my team would be:

1. Sharjeel Khan
2. Khalid Latif
3. Babar Azam
4. Malik
5. Sarfaraz (C)
6. Rizwan
7. Imad Wasim
8. Amir Yamin
9. Amir
10. Sohail Khan
11. Hassan Ali

12. Nawaz
13. U Akmal
14. Yasir Shah
15. Asad Shafiq
 
Get rid of azhar .
Get a bit of muscle in the lower order or akmal uptop .
Lots of good young players in the side
 
Donal Cozzie said:
You guys are letting a series at home vs a very very poor side with a tonne of off field issues hide the reality.

Pakistan wont go from a poor LO side to CT contenders due to one series vs the WI, especially when this WI side is so bad vs spin 200 would probably be a winning total.

Basically the only purpose of this series is to get ranking points and secure your grip on #8 spot in ODI's. If you use it to judge the actual quality of the team or certain players you're just going to disappoint yourselves.
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Pakistan have won the last 7 limited over games , including 2 vs england.
Westindies are ordinary but their recent record isnt as bad as you say .
The gradual improvement is not based on result but personell and mindset.
 
Replace azhar ali with umar akmal and make sarfraz opener :) we may not win still it would be a better show then 2013 CT
 
Need umar in team....drop azhar....also need Amir yamin in place of nawaz or imad...
 
Isnt PAK gonna miss CT 2017 anyway cause the last time was 30th sep to qualify among top8?
 
BDwarriors said:
Isnt PAK gonna miss CT 2017 anyway cause the last time was 30th sep to qualify among top8?
Click to expand...

That was 30th sep 2017

West Indies will miss it this time like Bangladesh missed it last time
 
Need to make a few changes and it is very possible to reach the semis, at least.

- Drop Azhar and find a decent opener.
- Replace Malik with Akmal
- Replace Hassan Ali with Mohammad Irfan (if he's fit).
- Make Sarfaraz the captain.
 
Why not?

There are just about 2/3 quick fix required, which I am sure Arthur can do within next 6 months.

1. Just need a better opener than Azhar. May be a new face or someone like Butt, MoHa. MoHa is a bit risky in early UK summer, but Fakher has a realistic chance - outside chance is Shahzeb. I would have opened with Babar & played Asad at 3 or even Amin has a better prospect than Azhar, as he can seem a bit with ball & fields brilliantly.
2. Need a new ball partner for Aamir, Imad can't open there. If Sohail can improve fitness, ideal partner.
3. Mian won't be this good in UK for sure. He can remain in the squad or even XI, but Umar needs to come at 4.
4. 2 left arm spinner won't work in UK, now way in June, specially when they have Malik in XI (& Fakhar can bowl SLAO as well). PAK MUST give Yasir all that he needs to succeed in ODI; if not, find another Leggi. But, this bowling combination won't work beyond WI.
5. Azhar is hurting with his batting as well - by now, I guess everyone is aware of who is calling shots during fielding. This'll create division in the team - this must has to be solved. Either empower Azhar & make that clear to everyone, or sack him (ask to resign on personal grounds).

Rest are perfectly in order & moving forward. At this rate, PAK should make the SF easily.
 
This team has more potential and talent than the team in 92.

Keyword: potential, talent....
 
Bilal7 said:
Need to make a few changes and it is very possible to reach the semis, at least.

- Drop Azhar and find a decent opener.
- Replace Malik with Akmal
- Replace Hassan Ali with Mohammad Irfan (if he's fit).
- Make Sarfaraz the captain.
Click to expand...

Why the hell would we do that ?
 
MMHS said:
Why not?

There are just about 2/3 quick fix required, which I am sure Arthur can do within next 6 months.

1. Just need a better opener than Azhar. May be a new face or someone like Butt, MoHa. MoHa is a bit risky in early UK summer, but Fakher has a realistic chance - outside chance is Shahzeb. I would have opened with Babar & played Asad at 3 or even Amin has a better prospect than Azhar, as he can seem a bit with ball & fields brilliantly.
2. Need a new ball partner for Aamir, Imad can't open there. If Sohail can improve fitness, ideal partner.
3. Mian won't be this good in UK for sure. He can remain in the squad or even XI, but Umar needs to come at 4.
4. 2 left arm spinner won't work in UK, now way in June, specially when they have Malik in XI (& Fakhar can bowl SLAO as well). PAK MUST give Yasir all that he needs to succeed in ODI; if not, find another Leggi. But, this bowling combination won't work beyond WI.
5. Azhar is hurting with his batting as well - by now, I guess everyone is aware of who is calling shots during fielding. This'll create division in the team - this must has to be solved. Either empower Azhar & make that clear to everyone, or sack him (ask to resign on personal grounds).

Rest are perfectly in order & moving forward. At this rate, PAK should make the SF easily.
Click to expand...

I don't think PCB can kick Azhar out. He looks more powerful than Hafeez, Afridi, Younis
 
MMHS said:
Why not?

There are just about 2/3 quick fix required, which I am sure Arthur can do within next 6 months.

1. Just need a better opener than Azhar. May be a new face or someone like Butt, MoHa. MoHa is a bit risky in early UK summer, but Fakher has a realistic chance - outside chance is Shahzeb. I would have opened with Babar & played Asad at 3 or even Amin has a better prospect than Azhar, as he can seem a bit with ball & fields brilliantly.
2. Need a new ball partner for Aamir, Imad can't open there. If Sohail can improve fitness, ideal partner.
3. Mian won't be this good in UK for sure. He can remain in the squad or even XI, but Umar needs to come at 4.
4. 2 left arm spinner won't work in UK, now way in June, specially when they have Malik in XI (& Fakhar can bowl SLAO as well). PAK MUST give Yasir all that he needs to succeed in ODI; if not, find another Leggi. But, this bowling combination won't work beyond WI.
5. Azhar is hurting with his batting as well - by now, I guess everyone is aware of who is calling shots during fielding. This'll create division in the team - this must has to be solved. Either empower Azhar & make that clear to everyone, or sack him (ask to resign on personal grounds).

Rest are perfectly in order & moving forward. At this rate, PAK should make the SF easily.
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Shafiq should not be no were in ODI team. Time to kick out Hafeez. Salman Butt is no more needed.

I guess everyone is aware of who is calling shots during fielding. How Sarfraz doing that?
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
The ability to score 300s.

284 and 336 were notched up with ease and Pakistan can still improve.

There is a huge mindset change. They are going for it nowadays.
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It also depends on quality of opposition honestly

Even in Zimbabwe home and SL series we were doing that but struggled to do that against England

Hope you're right though. Def Sharjeel being given a long rope is good to see
 
I'm sure it must be encouraging to see Pakistan put up big totals but it is West Indies, after all.

So I think it depends what you mean by 'do well'. I wouldn't expect Pakistan to win the tournament. Doing well, considering the ranking and the form Pakistan have shown since the World Cup, would be to progress out of the group stage (so minimum 2 wins at the tournament). A par performance would be 1 win, 2 losses and elimination at group stage, while a bad performance would be 3 losses, no wins.
 
Azhar out U Akmal in and we are good 2 go:)

and why are Bangla's en Indians so interested in our Cricket...?!
 
Shafi said:
Shafiq should not be no were in ODI team. Time to kick out Hafeez. Salman Butt is no more needed.

I guess everyone is aware of who is calling shots during fielding. How Sarfraz doing that?
Click to expand...

It's not Sarfu, you have to see it other way - what bowlers & fielders doing at the end of over or in case of a bowling change.

I would discount Asad for good after one last chance under a Pro coach who understands LO cricket & who knows the role for every batting position (& player for that role). I am sure, had Arthur not been there, Babur would have batted at 5.
 
Slog said:
It also depends on quality of opposition honestly

Even in Zimbabwe home and SL series we were doing that but struggled to do that against England

Hope you're right though. Def Sharjeel being given a long rope is good to see
Click to expand...

Yes....but improvement is gradual.

I feel they are going for the big scores....they understand that this 250 nonsense is nothing but a way to lose respectably....maybe they may not replicate it against the best ODI sides (there are chinks in the armour) but still active efforts are being made.

Pakistan are pounding WI this tour. Had someone predicted it 10 days back, people would have laughed.
 
Slog said:
It also depends on quality of opposition honestly

Even in Zimbabwe home and SL series we were doing that but struggled to do that against England

Hope you're right though. Def Sharjeel being given a long rope is good to see
Click to expand...

They beat Eng in the final ODI and the T20 to. Don't know why posters are yearning for Pakistan to fail just because Mickey is coach and so Waqar can be glorified, seems to be the popular thing to do on the forum as of late; pak have a long way to go but fans are burning at the positives in our approach as of late
 
shaz619 said:
They beat Eng in the final ODI and the T20 to. Don't know why posters are yearning for Pakistan to fail just because Mickey is coach and so Waqar can be glorified, seems to be the popular thing to do on the forum as of late; pak have a long way to go but fans are burning at the positives in our approach as of late
Click to expand...
No one is burning

It's Pakistan team. Not some Arthur eleven it Waqar Eleven

But we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves

It's a very weak Windies team
 
Yes we can. Azhar should be replaced and put a seam bowling all rounder in the team. Hopefully Yasir or another spinner is found.

If these things are done I think we will have a good tournament.
 
Slog said:
No one is burning

It's Pakistan team. Not some Arthur eleven it Waqar Eleven

But we shouldn't get ahead of ourselves

It's a very weak Windies team
Click to expand...

Well it certainly does seem that way, not sure why it has to be Mickey v Waqar XI it would be nice if we could support Pakistan and be glad about our efforts with regards to change in approach/mindset even though we do have a long way to go.

But this is how posters have behaved recently, "well yeah we're doing good but lets see if we can maintain it in the future, but we should be able to clean sweep the WI's team...." So here posters (mostly pro-Waqar and Mickey Haters) are implying we will fail in the future and hope so to in order to glorify Waqar, they also went out of their way to sarcastically imply that we would possibly lose the series vs WI or not manage to clean sweep them so they can then come back on PP to let us know of Waqars greatness and how awful Mickey is because we can't beat WI 3-0.

It would be nice if we support Pakistan and get that improvement is gradual
 
I predicted this 2 years ago.

Can see our boys in the iconic white suits popping a big bottle of Pepsi in the post tournament ceremony as we take revenge on dushman country with Babar Adam leading charge with his 124.
 
Slog said:
That was 30th sep 2017

West Indies will miss it this time like Bangladesh missed it last time
Click to expand...

And every other time before that. IIRC this is the first time ever BD has qualified for the CT.
 
Suleiman said:
I predicted this 2 years ago.

Can see our boys in the iconic white suits popping a big bottle of Pepsi in the post tournament ceremony as we take revenge on dushman country with Babar Adam leading charge with his 124.
Click to expand...

Lol staying true to the sponsors:msd

Honestly those white suits looked quite odd with a sports jersey under. But the angraiz do like to be keep things royal:bumble

We should host a champions trophy in the subcontinent and present the Australians with kurtas and shalwar kameezes.
 
With Azhar as captain we will be coming back after the group stages
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Yes....but improvement is gradual.

I feel they are going for the big scores....they understand that this 250 nonsense is nothing but a way to lose respectably....maybe they may not replicate it against the best ODI sides (there are chinks in the armour) but still active efforts are being made.

Pakistan are pounding WI this tour. Had someone predicted it 10 days back, people would have laughed.
Click to expand...

Eh??

West Indies on spin friendly tracks vs a team that literally breathes spinners?

Man the WI will be lucky to win a game this tour. At home they arent too bad but away they're still as bad as theyve ever been IMO
 
Better chance now that a few new faces have performed well and have some matches under their belt. Also the experience of having played in England will help also.
 
Donal Cozzie said:
Eh??

West Indies on spin friendly tracks vs a team that literally breathes spinners?

Man the WI will be lucky to win a game this tour. At home they arent too bad but away they're still as bad as theyve ever been IMO
Click to expand...

Pakistan batting is scoring at 8 rpo in T20.

Scored 284 and 330 in ODI.

That's improvement. Its not like they used to do this in the past.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Pakistan batting is scoring at 8 rpo in T20.

Scored 284 and 330 in ODI.

That's improvement. Its not like they used to do this in the past.
Click to expand...

In t20's they kinda did.

Granted in ODI's they didnt but you have to factor in the quality of attack. We'll see if anything has changed when they face the top sides e.g SA/IND/AUS
 
You can never tell with Pakistan,they comeup every 2-3 years like they are the next best thing and then lose focus and crash.

Its all about momentum for them,they were considered to be almost fav last Champ trophy and now again they are regaining it but something seems to go wrong.
 
Donal Cozzie said:
In t20's they kinda did.

Granted in ODI's they didnt but you have to factor in the quality of attack. We'll see if anything has changed when they face the top sides e.g SA/IND/AUS
Click to expand...

Did Pakistan used to get 284 - 336 against any attack in the past?

The intent is there.

They may or may not do well against good attacks but they did well against Eng in 5th ODI (chased a big score), 3 T20s, 2 ODIs now. That's something which they never did in years.

Definite progress.
 
JaDed said:
You can never tell with Pakistan,they comeup every 2-3 years like they are the next best thing and then lose focus and crash.

Its all about momentum for them,they were considered to be almost fav last Champ trophy and now again they are regaining it but something seems to go wrong.
Click to expand...

You of all people should know what happens, your country screws us over and starts throwing conspiracy theories against PAK left and right, it all starts months before a ICC tournament.
 
Good to see Pakistan doing well.

I don't know what happened to West Indies. They don't just look incompetent, they don't even take interest
 
Executioner said:
Good to see Pakistan doing well.

I don't know what happened to West Indies. They don't just look incompetent, they don't even take interest
Click to expand...

you were watching the match till end and hoping against hope west indies will win and you will troll us hard luck bro :uakmal
 
Donal Cozzie said:
You guys are letting a series at home vs a very very poor side with a tonne of off field issues hide the reality.

Pakistan wont go from a poor LO side to CT contenders due to one series vs the WI, especially when this WI side is so bad vs spin 200 would probably be a winning total.

Basically the only purpose of this series is to get ranking points and secure your grip on #8 spot in ODI's. If you use it to judge the actual quality of the team or certain players you're just going to disappoint yourselves.
Click to expand...

Good post except that at home we've been losing left, right and centre in LOIs, so it is praise worthy to win the ODI series.
 
Should look to qualify out of the group at least unlike the 2013 debacle.
 
Haroon786 said:
Good post except that at home we've been losing left, right and centre in LOIs, so it is praise worthy to win the ODI series.
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It is but have any of the sides youve played in the UAE up to this point been the WI??

Obviously credit the team for winning but the WI in Asia are hardly a benchmark for declaring a revolution and a surge in potential.
 
We have a good base, we just need to get a fast bowling all rounder who can end the innings with a bang.
Hint hint Aamer Yamin:inti
 
Intent to change their style and transform their cricket to modern style is there, something which has been missing for a while now but of course you don't become a great side, suddenly by beating West Indies. It's a start of transformation but not the end.
 
No. pakistan is an average team. Beating WI proves that you are better than WIbutnothing else.
 
Syed1 said:
Sad day for BD and India fans
Click to expand...

Not the way I see it. If WI had won this series 3-0 PAK would be down to 85 points, but the WI would be right on our heels or even ahead of us. If PAK wins 3-0, which they should WI will be at 89 and PAK at 91...Which gives us a bit of breathing space with a 4 point buffer.

If we beat England 2-1, we wil be back on the 98 points we had prior to losing to Afghanstan. A 3-0 win will take us to 101 points, and head of SL into the 6th spot.

Exciting times ahead.
 
Shutdown Corner said:
Not the way I see it. If WI had won this series 3-0 PAK would be down to 85 points, but the WI would be right on our heels or even ahead of us. If PAK wins 3-0, which they should WI will be at 89 and PAK at 91...Which gives us a bit of breathing space with a 4 point buffer.

If we beat England 2-1, we wil be back on the 98 points we had prior to losing to Afghanstan. A 3-0 win will take us to 101 points, and head of SL into the 6th spot.

Exciting times ahead.
Click to expand...

Congratulations for completely missing my point.


I said it is a sad day because most of them rejoice whenever Pakistan loses. So these past few days have been dull and gloomy for BD and Indian fans.
 
sivaji said:
No. pakistan is an average team. Beating WI proves that you are better than WIbutnothing else.
Click to expand...

Sir same Windies blasted 240 odd against you in a T20 not too long ago.
 
Executioner said:
Good to see Pakistan doing well.

I don't know what happened to West Indies. They don't just look incompetent, they don't even take interest
Click to expand...

The WI team management is in a shambles, and some top players like Gayle won't play for the team. They really don't have the concentration needed to play at the top level. On friendly pitches, they will swing hard and get a big score (like they did in the WC and Florida), beyond that they don't have much.
 
Syed1 said:
So these past few days have been dull and gloomy for BD and Indian fans.
Click to expand...

Indian fans have been doing very well, thank you. Did you see the Indian tail wag again against NZ? What we are not focused on is not moving from #9 to #8, but whether India wins 2 Tests and merely gets the #1 ranking back, or wins 3 Tests and puts the #1 ranking out of Pakistan's reach permanently.
 
Syed1 said:
Congratulations for completely missing my point.


I said it is a sad day because most of them rejoice whenever Pakistan loses. So these past few days have been dull and gloomy for BD and Indian fans.
Click to expand...

Only for feeble minded fans, but I guess it takes one to know one :p

Personally, its always nice to see India and Pakistan lose - which makes India v Pakistan matches particularly painful as you're doomed either way. Of course, with Pakistan and India's political situation, we don't have to worry too much about that thank god. Of course if either team unearths some exciting players in the future, its cricket's loss. Wasim/Waqar/Shoaib vs Tendulkar/Ganguly/Srinath was always entertaining for us neturals.

That being said, my primary concern is Bangladesh moving up the rankings table, and that is best served by Pakistan sweeping WI 3-0 as the WI are more of a threat atm. After this series, we'll probably need to root for the Windies to bring PAK down a few points again. So on and so forth...
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
Yes....<b>but improvement is gradual.</b>

I feel they are going for the big scores....they understand that this 250 nonsense is nothing but a way to lose respectably....maybe they may not replicate it against the best ODI sides (there are chinks in the armour) but still active efforts are being made.

Pakistan are pounding WI this tour. Had someone predicted it 10 days back, people would have laughed.
Click to expand...

Actually Pakistan is not improving, because improvement does not come out of the thin air. A cricket team is only a reflection of how systems function in the country and the Pakistani systems are dysfunctional. Systems do not change unless something fundamental changes, and nothing fundamental has changed.

Pakistan has now won the last 7 matches it played, and will likely win the next 4. However in the 11 matches win streak the only one with value will be the T20 against Eng. The ODI against Eng had them facing a team which was 4-0 up and resting its top spinners.

India produces better players because its systems are better. Along with the IPL and BCCI, the message is "Work hard, improve yourself and you have a chance of big rewards". This system wins against a system in which players do not have the same incentives and the same security.

Pakistani batting is a grade lower than other top teams. The only significant victory they had in 2015 WC (against SA) was due to its bowling. Wait for the Jan 2017 Aus tour and you will see the true state of Pakistani cricket.
 
Napa said:
Actually Pakistan is not improving, because improvement does not come out of the thin air. A cricket team is only a reflection of how systems function in the country and the Pakistani systems are dysfunctional. Systems do not change unless something fundamental changes, and nothing fundamental has changed.

Pakistan has now won the last 7 matches it played, and will likely win the next 4. However in the 11 matches win streak the only one with value will be the T20 against Eng. The ODI against Eng had them facing a team which was 4-0 up and resting its top spinners.

India produces better players because its systems are better. Along with the IPL and BCCI, the message is "Work hard, improve yourself and you have a chance of big rewards". This system wins against a system in which players do not have the same incentives and the same security.

Pakistani batting is a grade lower than other top teams. The only significant victory they had in 2015 WC (against SA) was due to its bowling. Wait for the Jan 2017 Aus tour and you will see the true state of Pakistani cricket.
Click to expand...

You should try winning a few overseas tests against teams other than WI before talking.
 
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Shutdown Corner said:
Only for feeble minded fans, but I guess it takes one to know one :p

Personally, its always nice to see India and Pakistan lose - which makes India v Pakistan matches particularly painful as you're doomed either way. Of course, with Pakistan and India's political situation, we don't have to worry too much about that thank god. Of course if either team unearths some exciting players in the future, its cricket's loss. Wasim/Waqar/Shoaib vs Tendulkar/Ganguly/Srinath was always entertaining for us neturals.

That being said, my primary concern is Bangladesh moving up the rankings table, and that is best served by Pakistan sweeping WI 3-0 as the WI are more of a threat atm. After this series, we'll probably need to root for the Windies to bring PAK down a few points again. So on and so forth...
Click to expand...

This plus minus will keep on going, but the real divider will come in the Champions Trophy. Which team amongst BD, Pak and WI does well and goes to the semis or further, will open up an unassailable lead with the rest of the pack.

BD having dropped that match against Afghanistan did quite a big disservice to itself, now they are within touching distance of the other two which wasn't the case earlier.
 
mz123 said:
We have got a good opener, a good middle order, and a good bowling attack ? Will this team be able to be competitive in the champions trophy ?
Click to expand...

I think they can.

The only weak link is now Azhar and that can be fixed in a variety of ways.

Would also like a lower order power hitter in the lineup.
 
LegendAli said:
You of all people should know what happens, your country screws us over and starts throwing conspiracy theories against PAK left and right, it all starts months before a ICC tournament.
Click to expand...

We didn't do nothing before last champ trophy bruh,that's all on our team from being fav to not winning in group.

Also unless u r accusing BCCI for fixing Amir,Asif,Butt not sure what you mean before ICC tourney, are u saying BCCI is responsible for Ajmal ban and not CA and ECB?
 
Napa said:
Actually Pakistan is not improving, because improvement does not come out of the thin air. A cricket team is only a reflection of how systems function in the country and the Pakistani systems are dysfunctional. Systems do not change unless something fundamental changes, and nothing fundamental has changed.

Pakistan has now won the last 7 matches it played, and will likely win the next 4. However in the 11 matches win streak the only one with value will be the T20 against Eng. The ODI against Eng had them facing a team which was 4-0 up and resting its top spinners.

India produces better players because its systems are better. Along with the IPL and BCCI, the message is "Work hard, improve yourself and you have a chance of big rewards". This system wins against a system in which players do not have the same incentives and the same security.

Pakistani batting is a grade lower than other top teams. The only significant victory they had in 2015 WC (against SA) was due to its bowling. Wait for the Jan 2017 Aus tour and you will see the true state of Pakistani cricket.
Click to expand...

System, structural improvement is long term and that is a different topic.

I am talking about doing stuff with the available resources. There you can see improvement.
 
Are they better than when they were under Woomer? i doubt it. Where are the pacers and batsmen. Younis and Mishbah are almost out and back to the basics again :)
 
Sarfraz is just needed as captain to inject some life back into the bowling attack. Azhar is by far the worst ODI captain in our history.
 
Champions trophy is an unrelenting tournament where there is no space for a breather and you mostly face tough teams. Pakistan are grouped with India, South Africa and Sri Lanka in the tourney.

I assume Pakistan will get the better of SL despite the latter being a good tournament team. But Pakistan doing well depends on whether the current team can beat India and/or South Africa in England.
 
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