Confused Pakistan thinking about a Test all-rounder

[Junaids]

I have been increasingly troubled by the comments being made about this recently.

When Misbah became the Chief Selector he made the bizarre comment that a Test all-rounder had to be worth a place in the team as a batsman or bowler alone. This was allowed to pass unchallenged, but it makes no sense for several reasons.

1. There is a difference between a batting all-rounder at Number 6, who must be able to be 75% of a test batsman who can bowl a bit, or a bowling all-rounder at Number 8 who needs to be 75% of a bowler but able to bat a bit (and I don't mean slog like Hasan Ali).

2. If you have several all-rounders, they can share such loads.

3. Pakistan already has as its Test wicketkeeper Mohammad Rizwan, who is a bona fide Test batsman.

4. Thanks to Rizwan, the team can afford a fourth and fifth bowler at Numbers 7 and 8, but they need to be able to contribute an average of 50 runs per innings between them. But they only need between them combined to bowl as many overs or take as many wickets as a fourth bowler in a team with no all-rounder.

5. You have to go back to the First Test in England 2 years ago to find a Test match in which Pakistan had even 3 bowlers who all performed. In reality, the fourth and fifth bowler only need to contribute what Imran Khan and Musa Khan and Yasir Shah did in Australia, as follows:

Imran Khan 24-3-73-1
Musa Khan 20-0-114-0
Yasir Shah 80-2-404-2

So Pakistan's third and fourth bowler already don't justify their selection on the basis of their bowling. So why not at least pick bowlers who can bat a bit to support Naseem Shah and Shaheen Shah Afridi?

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Despite being a disappointment in ODIs, Faheem Ashraf has actually done well as an all-rounder in Tests. It surprises me why he was dropped when he should be a surefire pick for overseas tours.

He bailed Pakistan out against Ireland with the bat...on debut. Did the holding job pretty well in England. And actually bowled better than our front-line seamers against South Africa, in the only test he got to play, while basically playing as the fifth bowler.

The sample size is very small, I know. And his batting skills are nothing to write home about about. But his first-class numbers are solid and make a case for selection as an all-rounder. In the few matches that he has played, his discipline with the ball has been impressive. Which is exactly what you need from the fifth bowler.

Playing abroad with four bowlers is simply not a choice anymore. We have two very young fast-bowlers in our attack and we cannot have them risking serious injury by throwing down 30+ overs an innings, in testing conditions with minimal rest in between. This strategy hurt us in South Africa and it hurt us in Australia. And let's be honest once you're down to number 7 you're pretty close to the end of the line anyway. If you're banking on your number 7 to change the game chances are that your batsmen failed.

On the other hand, a more potent bowling attack where your front-line bowlers bowlers firing on all cylinders can actually change the game in pace-friendly conditions in a matter of minutes.

 

[Asifnow]

I agree with the overall sentiment [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] and I think Shadab Khan can fill the role of a holding 4th or even 5th bowler with his position as a pretty good bat at 6 or 7.

Pakistan could ideally play Shaheen, Shah and Abbas, with Yasir as the main spin option and Shadab in support. That allows Pakistan to have batsmen through to 5 (Sami, Abid, Azhar, Babar and Shafiq, with Rizwan at 6). Faheem Ashraf can play the Shadab role in conditions which suit, although Shadab has the higher ceiling. Plenty of options for Pak to play around with if they are smart enough.

 

[big_gamer007]

I think Pakistan is missing the trick by not playing Faheem in tests. I agree with Junaids, in tests he had been fairly decent and should be included.

 

[shamaan]

Fahim can play as a bowling all rounder in English conditions.
Shadab can play as a batting all rounder in asain conditions

 

[TeymurBlake]

Faheem or Yamin would have been acceptable in Test.

 

[Nasty Naz]

I have been increasingly troubled by the comments being made about this recently.

When Misbah became the Chief Selector he made the bizarre comment that a Test all-rounder had to be worth a place in the team as a batsman or bowler alone. This was allowed to pass unchallenged, but it makes no sense for several reasons.

I think that is the absolute right way to go about it. Test is a game of specialists, not bits and pieces cricketers. You need batsmen or bowlers who can win you games and have the ability to perform at a high level. All allrounder who can only give you some batting and some bowling without being able to dominate in either department isn't of much use.

And frankly, Rizwan isn't a good enough wicketkeeper to justify a mediocre allrounder. WK isn't just a wasted spot anymore, teams have been having strong WK to propel their teams to the top. In Test, I think the best option is to always go with 7 strong batsmen and 4 good bowlers.

This is not to suggest an allrounder are useless or anything but if you are going to have an allrounder, you need someone that can be a strong batsmen who can put up a century or as a bowler who could pickup 5 wickets. This is why Ben Stokes is so useful to England. It's also why Hafeez in his prime was so important for Pakistan back then (at least in Asian conditions). Faheem's of the world isn't good enough to cut it.

Possible Shadab might be good enough since he has really improved on his batting but I think we need to see more FC dominance first.

 

[Kroll]

Depends on personnel and conditions but an ideal standard formation for Tests would be 6 strong batsmen, with 6 being a strong WK batsman which is the trend these days. 7 would be the all rounder and then your front line bowlers taking up the remaining 4 slots.

In ODI's its preferable to utilise more all rounders as unlike Tests, you don't necessarily have to bowl the opposition out to win the game.

 

[daytrader]

It's a non issue as Shadab has secured the number 7 spot and will be there for the foreseeable future. Playing another bowling all-rounder will throw off the balance. We also have bowling options in Azhar, Harris and Fawad that can lighten the load of the main bowlers.

Also how come you excluded Abbass from the 3rd/4th bowler spot? Surely he makes it to the team ahead of Imran and Musa.

The only weakness I see in the test bowling line up would be Yasir not performing with the ball but as Saeed Ajmal noted in his interview that's due to lack of game time and form drops when you have big gaps between games. Yasir is still our premier spinner for tests and I'm sure he'll be back in form before long. Ideally we should have an off spinner but in the immediate Yasir is our best option. Besides as per your criteria the 4th bowler should be able to bat and Yasir can certainly do that.

Current bowling lineup:

7. Shadab
8. Yasir
9. Abbas
10. Shaheen
11. Naseem

 

[Thunderbolt14]

How has Shadab secured the number 7 spot in England when there is already a spinner in Yasir?

 

[daytrader]

How has Shadab secured the number 7 spot in England when there is already a spinner in Yasir?

He scored 3 50's on his last tour there. Misbah's not going to ignore that

 

[ElRaja]

takes ages to develop a test level all rounder, maybe 15 tests, 20 tests, its not easy but the returns are so large in helping to balance a team.

the real problem is you wont develop an all rounder playing 15 tests over 3 years, changes in conditions mean if we go with shadab and fahim, neither is likely to play more than 5 or 6 tests in that period.

fahim's batting is very worrisome tho, shadab makes more sense especially if pak want to favour playing 4 specialist seamers at home.

 

[gazza619]

Azhar Ali and Haris Sohail need to work harder on their bowling and can chip in 10 odd overs in between them in a day.

I dont like the sound of Shadab, Faheem, Yamin in tests. They are just not test material.

 

[angrypathan]

He scored 3 50's on his last tour there. Misbah's not going to ignore that

You give Misbah too much credit. I'd be surprised if Shadab gets a game, unless Yasir is smashed in the first test

 

[Kroll]

You give Misbah too much credit. I'd be surprised if Shadab gets a game, unless Yasir is smashed in the first test

I'd be more surprised if Yasir isn't smashed in the first Test.

 

[daytrader]

You give Misbah too much credit. I'd be surprised if Shadab gets a game, unless Yasir is smashed in the first test

There's room for both. It's safe to say Shadab is an established member of PCT and the way he took responsibility in PSL is sure to impress Misbah. Misbah likes responsible players so he should play him in tests. I think Yasir will also play although at expense of the 4th seamer.

 

[angrypathan]

There's room for both. It's safe to say Shadab is an established member of PCT and the way he took responsibility in PSL is sure to impress Misbah. Misbah likes responsible players so he should play him in tests. I think Yasir will also play although at expense of the 4th seamer.

Playing two leg spinners in England will be madness. If an all-rounder is to play along with Yasir, it has to be a seamer. Ideally Shadab would play as frontline spinner as he did on the last tour.

 

[Nasty Naz]

It's a non issue as Shadab has secured the number 7 spot and will be there for the foreseeable future. Playing another bowling all-rounder will throw off the balance. We also have bowling options in Azhar, Harris and Fawad that can lighten the load of the main bowlers.

Also how come you excluded Abbass from the 3rd/4th bowler spot? Surely he makes it to the team ahead of Imran and Musa.

The only weakness I see in the test bowling line up would be Yasir not performing with the ball but as Saeed Ajmal noted in his interview that's due to lack of game time and form drops when you have big gaps between games. Yasir is still our premier spinner for tests and I'm sure he'll be back in form before long. Ideally we should have an off spinner but in the immediate Yasir is our best option. Besides as per your criteria the 4th bowler should be able to bat and Yasir can certainly do that.

Current bowling lineup:

7. Shadab
8. Yasir
9. Abbas
10. Shaheen
11. Naseem

lol how has Shadab secured 7th spot when he hasn't even played a Test in a while?

And who do you even take out if Shadab does well? Haris? If Pakistan want to make their batting extremely weak like they did in SA tour, then go for it. I am sure it will work out well.

Side note - Pakistan top 4 in SA first two test were: Imam/Fakhar/Shan/Azhar. As you can guess, it failed spectacularly. Never underestimate Pakistan's ability to be utterly insane.

 

[daytrader]

lol how has Shadab secured 7th spot when he hasn't even played a Test in a while?

And who do you even take out if Shadab does well? Haris? If Pakistan want to make their batting extremely weak like they did in SA tour, then go for it. I am sure it will work out well.

Side note - Pakistan top 4 in SA first two test were: Imam/Fakhar/Shan/Azhar. As you can guess, it failed spectacularly. Never underestimate Pakistan's ability to be utterly insane.

Sorry I meant he will secure it as he's the prime contender for the all rounder spot. All rounders play at 7 and that's where he should be.

 

[shamaan]

lol how has Shadab secured 7th spot when he hasn't even played a Test in a while?

And who do you even take out if Shadab does well? Haris? If Pakistan want to make their batting extremely weak like they did in SA tour, then go for it. I am sure it will work out well.

Side note - Pakistan top 4 in SA first two test were: Imam/Fakhar/Shan/Azhar. As you can guess, it failed spectacularly. Never underestimate Pakistan's ability to be utterly insane.

In SENA it should be shadab at 7 fahim at 8 Abbas at 9 shaheen 10 naseem 11

In Asian conditions should be gohar at 8 yasir at 9 then 10 abbas and shaheen at 11

Bisicaly in sena conditions you should play 3 fast bowlers and 2 all rounders

I'n asian conditions should be 2 spinners and 2 fast bowlers unless it's going to have swing

 

[shamaan]

Azhar Ali and Haris Sohail need to work harder on their bowling and can chip in 10 odd overs in between them in a day.

I dont like the sound of Shadab, Faheem, Yamin in tests. They are just not test material.

Harris is decent bowler he can bowl 15 overs.shadab and fahim will be decent in sena conditions yamin and fahim wont olay in the same test side only 1

 

[shamaan]

You give Misbah too much credit. I'd be surprised if Shadab gets a game, unless Yasir is smashed in the first test

Personally I'd play shadab but yasir will play

 

[shamaan]

There's room for both. It's safe to say Shadab is an established member of PCT and the way he took responsibility in PSL is sure to impress Misbah. Misbah likes responsible players so he should play him in tests. I think Yasir will also play although at expense of the 4th seamer.

Playing 2 spinners in sena conditions lol expect a white wash

 

[daytrader]

Playing 2 spinners in sena conditions lol expect a white wash

I know but I don't think we have many options as we don't have a quality fast bowling all rounder that can be the 4th seamer and a quality bat. We need to play 5 bowlers (3 full time & 2 all rounders or 4 full time & 1 all rounder). Maybe instead of Yasir we can go with another spin bowling all rounder like Iftikhar or a 4th full time pacer. The latter option will significantly weaken the lower order batting.

 

[FreePalestine]

Although I admit, I like the idea of playing six batsmen plus Rizwan, I wouldn’t want to discount playing Shadab and Faheem together. As people have said, they did well in their short stints together in the side.

The decision to absolutely reject it as an option and drop Faheem from everything the way Misbah has done, and his decision to drop Abbas in the first test vs Aus, shows bias, and a harsh attitude to players. Think what all these decisions do for the confidence of these players!

 

[shamaan]

I know but I don't think we have many options as we don't have a quality fast bowling all rounder that can be the 4th seamer and a quality bat. We need to play 5 bowlers (3 full time & 2 all rounders or 4 full time & 1 all rounder). Maybe instead of Yasir we can go with another spin bowling all rounder like Iftikhar or a 4th full time pacer. The latter option will significantly weaken the lower order batting.

It has to be either fahim or yamin even thou they ain't that good but they will do a job. I'd play fahim and shadab like last time we went to england

 

[shamaan]

Although I admit, I like the idea of playing six batsmen plus Rizwan, I wouldn’t want to discount playing Shadab and Faheem together. As people have said, they did well in their short stints together in the side.

The decision to absolutely reject it as an option and drop Faheem from everything the way Misbah has done, and his decision to drop Abbas in the first test vs Aus, shows bias, and a harsh attitude to players. Think what all these decisions do for the confidence of these players!

If you want 5 bowlers 2 being able to bat then has to be fahim and shadab if it's a for man attack then yasir will play

 

[FreePalestine]

If you want 5 bowlers 2 being able to bat then has to be fahim and shadab if it's a for man attack then yasir will play

Exactly. Has to be a more nuanced approach, than just rejecting the only decent a/r option we appear to have at the moment. Both performed well in test cricket so far.