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Corrupt OR Incompetent : Which government will you pick?

Hermoine Green

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For example there are 2 types of governments and you have to pick one.

Type A : Corrupt but competent.

Type b : Honest but Incompetent.


This is not related to PTI v PMLN discussions, but yeah i have taken this question from the same debates.

But here its a general question from all posters.

State the reasons also.
 
For example there are 2 types of governments and you have to pick one.

Type A : Corrupt but competent.

Type b : Honest but Incompetent.


This is not related to PTI v PMLN discussions, but yeah i have taken this question from the same debates.

But here its a general question from all posters.

State the reasons also.

please add type C: Corrupt and Incompetent.
the case in Pak prior to IK becoming PM.
 
Tricky question, depends on how much damage the incompetence causes compared to corruption.

In some cases, a government might be incompetent but their intentions honest so they might grow as let's say 100% but grow at 50%.
On the other hand, a government might be competent but totally corrupt. So they willingly only grow at 40%.

In this case option A was better.

If the %s reverse then option B would be better.
 
What if someone is corrupt AND incompetent like Nawaz Sharif?
 
How about a forth option ie corrupt, highly incompetent and deeply badniyat ie PPP?
 
There is a simple answer to this question.

Corrupt people should be fined or jailed
Corrupt people who steel from the poor should be tried for treason

Corrupt and Competent should never go hand in hand.
Only an idiot would have used this to defend criminals.

You take clean people with the right qualifications and keep going with this until you end up with an extremely competent person / government. But you never ever compromise on corruption.
 
Ii Will sack both of them

Better to save on salaries & perks of these corrupt and incompetent :P
 
Corrupt but competent is an oxymoron.

It's a catchy phrase used in Pakistani politics but think about it for a moment.

Competent means the ability to get things done the right way.

Corrupt means you rely on illegal activity, like bribery, to get things done.

If you rely on corruption for your system to work then you are incompetent by default.
 
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Corrupt but competent is an oxymoron.

It's a catchy phrase used in Pakistani politics but think about it for a moment.

Competent means the ability to get things done the right way.

Corrupt means you rely on illegal activity, like bribery, to get things done.

If you rely on corruption for your system to work then you are incompetent by default.

It is not black and white. Such sweeping statements should be avoided.

People who have had no exposure of working in the public sector in Pakistan or live in the West usually have a very simplistic and naive understanding of how corruption works, why corruption happens and the different layers of corruption.

Also, it is important to distinguish between the corruption of politicians such as Pervez Khattak, Jahangir Tareen, Nawaz, Zardari etc. and the corruption of civil/public servants.

Corruption happens not only because of greed but also because of circumstances. People in the public sector are grossly underpaid especially CSP officers and and corruption works like oil that keeps the engine moving. Without bribes, kickbacks and below-the-table deals, nothing would get done in Pakistan.

In an ideal world, you would develop a system that can function with zero corruption, but that cannot happen in overpopulated third world countries.

Corrupt and competent is not an oxymoron. Take the BRT metro bus project in Peshawar.

Millions and millions of rupees have been wasted on that project and the budget has been exceeded by about 10 times because PTI decided to hand over the project to a cheap construction company that was blacklisted by the PMLN government.

To give an example of their incompetence, after spending 2 years and millions of rupees, they realized that the track was not wide enough for two buses to pass through simultaneously.

As a result, they had to demolish everything and start all over again, wasting millions of rupees.

Even a person with no project management experience in construction would tell you that correct estimation/calculation of the width of the tracks is something that needs to done very early in the project and not after spending 2 years and wasting millions.

The fact that this construction company had to redo the tracks and cost the government millions is a clear example of their incompetence.

Now even if they didn’t do a rupee of corruption, what good is their honesty when they are so incompetent?

On the other hand, if the project was offered to a company that did not have dunce engineers, they could have constructed the metro bus without starting all over again after two years due to incorrect calculations.

Now even if this company did some corruption, they would still prove to be more useful than the current dunces.

India is a good example of how corruption and competency can coexist. India have achieved considerable economic and industrial growth since its economic liberation in 1991 in spite of rampant corruption because they focused on building competencies rather than eliminating corruption.

Pakistan’s focus is entirely wrong. We wrongly believe that eliminating corruption is the solution to our problems and we rarely focus on competencies.

The priority should be to employ qualified people and not honest people. If these qualified people are honest that would obviously be the perfect solution, but a competent but dishonest person would still bring more value than an honest but incompetent person.

Take a look at Imran Khan’s Science and Technology Minister.

Even if we assume that Fawad Chaudhry is honest, what value will a mediocre lawyer like him bring to Science and Technology Ministry?

Few months back, he claimed that Pakistan sent the Hubble telescope to space and I bet he cannot tell the difference between an atom and a molecule.

His greatest achievement in this position is probably going to be ensuring that the country celebrates eid on the same day.

Would it not be better to give this ministry to a man of science with a clear vision and understanding of how to drive this ministry forward?
 
For example there are 2 types of governments and you have to pick one.

Type A : Corrupt but competent.

Type b : Honest but Incompetent.

Currupt but competent can lift large population out of poverty. They won't lift due to having it as their goal, but it will happen.

Honest but incompetent won't lift large population out of poerverty despite honest try.
 
You need a goverment that is both competent and clean. Being Honest and Competent is not mutually exclusive.

Every country has corruption, but this idea that Agar Khata Hai To Lagata Bhi To Hai is ok is outrageous. The fact that some people, especially educated people, can defend this is why we have sunk so low.
 
For example there are 2 types of governments and you have to pick one.

Type A : Corrupt but competent.

Type b : Honest but Incompetent.


This is not related to PTI v PMLN discussions, but yeah i have taken this question from the same debates.

But here its a general question from all posters.

State the reasons also.

Corrupt cannot be competent, just not possible.
 
I would take corrupt over incompetent.

It is easier to fix corruption than incompetence.

Ideally, a government should be both transparent and competent.
 
I would take corrupt over incompetent.

It is easier to fix corruption than incompetence.

Ideally, a government should be both transparent and competent.

How do we fix corruption?

This is the biggest challenge our countries are faced with. There is a corrupt system at place where an honest person is forced to be corrupt to get things done.
 
It is not black and white. Such sweeping statements should be avoided.

People who have had no exposure of working in the public sector in Pakistan or live in the West usually have a very simplistic and naive understanding of how corruption works, why corruption happens and the different layers of corruption.

Also, it is important to distinguish between the corruption of politicians such as Pervez Khattak, Jahangir Tareen, Nawaz, Zardari etc. and the corruption of civil/public servants.

Corruption happens not only because of greed but also because of circumstances. People in the public sector are grossly underpaid especially CSP officers and and corruption works like oil that keeps the engine moving. Without bribes, kickbacks and below-the-table deals, nothing would get done in Pakistan.

In an ideal world, you would develop a system that can function with zero corruption, but that cannot happen in overpopulated third world countries.

Corrupt and competent is not an oxymoron. Take the BRT metro bus project in Peshawar.

Millions and millions of rupees have been wasted on that project and the budget has been exceeded by about 10 times because PTI decided to hand over the project to a cheap construction company that was blacklisted by the PMLN government.

To give an example of their incompetence, after spending 2 years and millions of rupees, they realized that the track was not wide enough for two buses to pass through simultaneously.

As a result, they had to demolish everything and start all over again, wasting millions of rupees.

Even a person with no project management experience in construction would tell you that correct estimation/calculation of the width of the tracks is something that needs to done very early in the project and not after spending 2 years and wasting millions.

The fact that this construction company had to redo the tracks and cost the government millions is a clear example of their incompetence.

Now even if they didn’t do a rupee of corruption, what good is their honesty when they are so incompetent?

On the other hand, if the project was offered to a company that did not have dunce engineers, they could have constructed the metro bus without starting all over again after two years due to incorrect calculations.

Now even if this company did some corruption, they would still prove to be more useful than the current dunces.

India is a good example of how corruption and competency can coexist. India have achieved considerable economic and industrial growth since its economic liberation in 1991 in spite of rampant corruption because they focused on building competencies rather than eliminating corruption.

Pakistan’s focus is entirely wrong. We wrongly believe that eliminating corruption is the solution to our problems and we rarely focus on competencies.

The priority should be to employ qualified people and not honest people. If these qualified people are honest that would obviously be the perfect solution, but a competent but dishonest person would still bring more value than an honest but incompetent person.

Take a look at Imran Khan’s Science and Technology Minister.

Even if we assume that Fawad Chaudhry is honest, what value will a mediocre lawyer like him bring to Science and Technology Ministry?

Few months back, he claimed that Pakistan sent the Hubble telescope to space and I bet he cannot tell the difference between an atom and a molecule.

His greatest achievement in this position is probably going to be ensuring that the country celebrates eid on the same day.

Would it not be better to give this ministry to a man of science with a clear vision and understanding of how to drive this ministry forward?

When I call out the flaw in the terms used I am by no means advocating for the "honest but incompetent" alternative. It should be obvious that a person can not be assigned a position solely based on their honesty. However, the whole premise of "corrupt but competent" is false which is then used to normalize corruption.

Competency to me is the ability to get things done the right way. Often times these "corrupt but competent" types don't really follow the proper protocol and can get things done throw a middle man.

At the same time an individual might have the proper ability to get a certain task done but may be forced to rely on corrupt practices to get it done, due to the system at place.

A better term for what is being discussed in the Pakistani politics would be:

Corrupt but can get things down.

VS

Honest but can't get things done.


A rational person would choose the one who can get things done over the one who can't. At the end of the day things needs to be done and nobody cares about how pure the heart is if necessary tasks aren't getting done.

The relevant questions are:

Why is the corrupt person able to get things done?

Is it superior skill set? OR, Is it the knowledge and willingness to navigate through the corrupt system?

What's hindering the honest person from getting things done?

Is it the lack of skill set? OR, Is it the lack of willingness to work in line with the corrupt system at place and therefore end up sacrificing the effectiveness?

Primarily, I am calling out the corruption of the top layer and those responsible for supporting the current system and allowing the continuation of the systematic corruption.

At first, one may think things are getting done so let's stick with this system but the country is headed towards devastating harm in the long term, as things are being done in an inefficient way wasting the nations resources by hoarding them in foreign banks, which are then forever lost once the bank decides to freeze the account or the person dies.

The rhetoric in Pakistani politics needs to stop blandishing corrupt leaders by automatically assigning the attribute "competent" to them. Instead of coming up with scenarios to legitimatize systematic corruption we should be brainstorming on how to lessen it.

The debate about corruption and its harm has to be independent of PTI VS non-PTI government.

Popular use of terms like "corrupt but competent" makes it seems as if the two are synonyms or as if there is a correlation between them. Someone who is responsible for the widespread systematic culture of corruption and its survival is than somehow automatically considered to "competent".

No country is without any corruption.

However, countries with less systematic corruption seem to doing better in all aspects than countries with high rates of corruption. A widespread culture of corruption is a hallmark of an inefficient and ineffective system at place. Inefficiency can't be competency.

On another note: Merit is part of a less corrupt system. If you are selecting an unqualified person for a task due to their honesty then you are indulging in corrupt practice because the selection was based on other than merit.
 
I don’t get the binary. You can single out specific examples like BRT but overall just because someone is honest doesn’t mean they are incompetent.

9 times out of 10 the honest pick is better than the corrupt pick.

If you and everyone like you stopped justifying criminals, Pakistan’s mindset would change radically and we would improve for the better.

The only thing that’s been holding is back is this apologist mindset. Stop looking to the past and apologizing for the Sharifs and Bhuttos and military men. Rise above the simple binaries. Focus on converting other people to honesty.

Competence comes with education. And that can always be achieved as a byproduct of your investment in the system. But progress comes with honesty. And that can never be replaced. Because it is a mentality of people like these apologists here.

Think about these last three sentences a bit.
 
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An honest but incompetent person holding on to an important post is very dangerous as corrupt individuals working under him can take full benefits of that person and manipulate him.
 
An honest but incompetent person holding on to an important post is very dangerous as corrupt individuals working under him can take full benefits of that person and manipulate him.

An honest but incompetent person holding on to a position, for which he has little qualification, is a corrupt person, because he lacks the necessary merit to stay in his position but insists on holding on to it or the corrupt system is allowing him to stay in his position.

How did an unqualified person ended up at such an important position?

It must have been through corruption and a selection process other than merit.

Corruption is more than just bribery, thought that's the first example that comes in mind. Nepotism is a form of corruption too.

Lack of merit in selection process = corruption.

Honest but incompetent person may exist.

However, honest but incompetent person holding on to a unqualified position can not exist strictly speaking. The person deemed to be "honest" is actually corrupt and not "honest" at all, since a truly honest person would recognize his shortcomings and resign from the position.

This whole corrupt but competent VS honest but incompetent debate is utter nonsense. When closely examined these made up scenarios are flawed and only mean to normalize systematic corruption.

We need to be discussing ways to lessen systematic corruption instead of discussing which is the lesser of the two evil of a flawed made up scenario.
 
Example 1:

If someone uses 90% of the allocated money to finish a project, while 10% of the budget is stored in his foreign bank account, is that person competent?

Yeah sure, he got the project done but did he do it in an effective manner?

Is the quality of the project the same, if 100% of the allocated resources had gone into it?

If the desired quality could be achieved only by using 90% of the planned budget than who calculated the inaccurate budget?

Wouldn't the person responsible for planning the budget make sure that the excess money was secured and returned to the right authorities once the project is finished?

Can such a person and his firm really be considered competent?


Example 2:

Person A is taking an English test to get his language certificate. He uses corrupt methods (i.e. cheating) to help him out. He ends up passing the test.

Can we confidently say he is competent in English language?

Yeah sure, he got things done. He passed the exam and got the certificate but did he do it the right way?

This is how "corruption" can give you an edge to get the job done and make you appear "competent" when in reality you are far from it.
 
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An honest but incompetent person holding on to a position, for which he has little qualification, is a corrupt person, because he lacks the necessary merit to stay in his position but insists on holding on to it or the corrupt system is allowing him to stay in his position.

How did an unqualified person ended up at such an important position?

It must have been through corruption and a selection process other than merit.

Corruption is more than just bribery, thought that's the first example that comes in mind. Nepotism is a form of corruption too.

Lack of merit in selection process = corruption.

Honest but incompetent person may exist.

However, honest but incompetent person holding on to a unqualified position can not exist strictly speaking. The person deemed to be "honest" is actually corrupt and not "honest" at all, since a truly honest person would recognize his shortcomings and resign from the position.

This whole corrupt but competent VS honest but incompetent debate is utter nonsense. When closely examined these made up scenarios are flawed and only mean to normalize systematic corruption.

We need to be discussing ways to lessen systematic corruption instead of discussing which is the lesser of the two evil of a flawed made up scenario.

Agreed. Very valid point but the problem is our society has not reached at that level yet where such healthy discussion can be started. This thread or any other thread is a clear example where most of the people we know are educated yet instead of having a healthy debate they alledge others of part of being some mafia and start name calling. People have sold their loyality blindly and once they like someone it becomes part of their life to defend them at any cost. Their whole thinkinh process becomes so rigid that they take any argument against their fav personalities as personal.
 
I don’t get the binary. You can single out specific examples like BRT but overall just because someone is honest doesn’t mean they are incompetent.

9 times out of 10 the honest pick is better than the corrupt pick.

If you and everyone like you stopped justifying criminals, Pakistan’s mindset would change radically and we would improve for the better.

The only thing that’s been holding is back is this apologist mindset. Stop looking to the past and apologizing for the Sharifs and Bhuttos and military men. Rise above the simple binaries. Focus on converting other people to honesty.

Competence comes with education. And that can always be achieved as a byproduct of your investment in the system. But progress comes with honesty. And that can never be replaced. Because it is a mentality of people like these apologists here.

Think about these last three sentences a bit.
Basically go IK our cult is following you and whoever doesn't agree is an apologist NICE!
 
How do we fix corruption?

This is the biggest challenge our countries are faced with. There is a corrupt system at place where an honest person is forced to be corrupt to get things done.

Both corruption and incompetence are difficult to fix. However, I feel incompetence is worse. Incompetence can kill people.
 
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