Could Kane Williamson surpass Stephen Fleming as New Zealands greatest captain?

[Hasan123]

Stephen Fleming is highly regarded as New Zealands greatest captain due to his tactical ability and leadership. Kane Williamson is showing similar abilities, he has taken New Zealand to a World Cup final and they have a chance of getting to the inaugural ICC test championship final.

Is there any chance Kane Williamson can finish his career as New Zealands greatest captain?

 

[szrana007]

Fleming had some great achievements as NZ captain in test cricket. He won in England in 1999 with quite a weak team. Drew against a GOAT Aussie team away in 2001 and also drew against a strong Indian team away. Kane got smashed 3-0 in India and Australia. So If you look at it, NZ under Fleming always punched above their weight, even though he had a weaker side than Kane. So Fleming will always be a better captain for me.

 

[Snatch]

Fleming had some great achievements as NZ captain in test cricket. He won in England in 1999 with quite a weak team. Drew against a GOAT Aussie team away in 2001 and also drew against a strong Indian team away. Kane got smashed 3-0 in India and Australia. So If you look at it, NZ under Fleming always punched above their weight, even though he had a weaker side than Kane. So Fleming will always be a better captain for me.

Williamson has captained NZ to 20 test wins and has only loss 8, he and Kohli now have the equal 3rd best captaincy record of all time after Steve Waugh and Ponting

 

[Deewana Mastana]

He sure can especially as he is getting the players around him to help him to do so as well.

 

[szrana007]

Williamson has captained NZ to 20 test wins and has only loss 8, he and Kohli now have the equal 3rd best captaincy record of all time after Steve Waugh and Ponting

Fleming has 28 wins as NZL captain and he lead a much weaker side than Kane has. Yes he also lost more but a captain's W/L ratio is a function of his team. Steve Waugh has a great W/L ratio but was ordinary as a tactician, but because he had a great team, it reflects in his W/L ratio as a captain.

 

[Snatch]

Fleming has 28 wins as NZL captain and he lead a much weaker side than Kane has. Yes he also lost more but a captain's W/L ratio is a function of his team. Steve Waugh has a great W/L ratio but was ordinary as a tactician, but because he had a great team, it reflects in his W/L ratio as a captain.

Fleming has the likes of Bond, Nash, Cairns, Doull, Vettori with the ball - Not Marshall Garner and Holding, but still a useful attack for Fleming. And batting wise, Fleming has Richardson, Astle, McMillian, Oram & Cairns- not world beaters, but guys who averaged close to 40.

I do think Williamson is captaining a stronger side than Fleming, but not by that much, and his record is much superior to Flemings.

 

[Savak]

Fleming has the likes of Bond, Nash, Cairns, Doull, Vettori with the ball - Not Marshall Garner and Holding, but still a useful attack for Fleming. And batting wise, Fleming has Richardson, Astle, McMillian, Oram & Cairns- not world beaters, but guys who averaged close to 40.

I do think Williamson is captaining a stronger side than Fleming, but not by that much, and his record is much superior to Flemings.

Vettori was the only great player Fleming had. Bond, Nash were frequently injured and Cairns usually blew hot and cold. Fleming if he had the likes of Boult, Southee, Jamison, Ferguson with him would have had much bigger wins under his belt. Fleming was also a very good strategist in the field with his field placements.

 

[Snatch]

Vettori was the only great player Fleming had. Bond, Nash were frequently injured and Cairns usually blew hot and cold. Fleming if he had the likes of Boult, Southee, Jamison, Ferguson with him would have had much bigger wins under his belt. Fleming was also a very good strategist in the field with his field placements.

Yes, that is all true, and Williamson's record should be better than Fleming's, and it is by a lot

 

[szrana007]

Fleming has the likes of Bond, Nash, Cairns, Doull, Vettori with the ball - Not Marshall Garner and Holding, but still a useful attack for Fleming. And batting wise, Fleming has Richardson, Astle, McMillian, Oram & Cairns- not world beaters, but guys who averaged close to 40.

I do think Williamson is captaining a stronger side than Fleming, but not by that much, and his record is much superior to Flemings.

I think many will agree that this current Kiwi side is the GOAT kiwi team. Kane is captaining a GOAT kiwi team but still was whitewashed 3-0 in India and Australia. Contrast that to Fleming, who with a weaker NZL side came close to winning against the GOAT Aussie team in Australia in 2001 and also came close to beating India away in 2003. Fleming also led NZL to their first ever test series win in the Caribbean against against a good West Indian team. So too many great achievements of Fleming to ignore really.

 

[Snatch]

I think many will agree that this current Kiwi side is the GOAT kiwi team. Kane is captaining a GOAT kiwi team but still was whitewashed 3-0 in India and Australia. Contrast that to Fleming, who with a weaker NZL side came close to winning against the GOAT Aussie team in Australia in 2001 and also came close to beating India away in 2003. Fleming also led NZL to their first ever test series win in the Caribbean against against a good West Indian team. So too many great achievements of Fleming to ignore really.

Fleming was an excellent technician, but I think Williamson is too and gets underrated. Both excellent captains

 

[Hasan123]

Fleming was an excellent technician, but I think Williamson is too and gets underrated. Both excellent captains

How does Williamson get underrated as a captain? He is called the best captain in the world on PP and I have seen many ex players praise his captaincy.

 

[szrana007]

Fleming was an excellent technician, but I think Williamson is too and gets underrated. Both excellent captains

I think, if Fleming was leading the current GOAT kiwi team, NZL would atleast be competitive in India and Australia, both places where Kane got whitewashed.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Stephen Fleming >>> Kane Williamson IMO.

 

[MMHS]

Catching Fleming will be tough - he won NZ’s only ICC event, made another final as well. Drew Test series in India & Australia, won a series in England.

 

[Suleiman]

Nah. Kane isn’t anything special of a captain. He’s blessed to be in a period where NZ are producing top cricketers, and him being a world class batsman helps his reputation but says nothing about his captaincy.

 

[wrongun]

Williamson has a team that just might surpass some of what FLeming achieved (with a far more limited team). But he hasn't actually done much apart from win at home yet. I suppose ODI WC Final is an achievement of sorts but you don't hear Pakistan claiming '99 as some huge achievement.

Williamson has a far, far more talented team. A far superior batting lineup & an atg (for NZ) pace attack. If he doesn't achieve what Fleming did, he should be rated poorly as a leader.

What Kane needs to do to even get close: draw in Oz, draw in India, win in England. None of these are easy, for any team. He has the team to achieve this in Oz & England. He lacks the bowlers to win a Test in India, so it'll have to be a batathon.

How could Kane surpass FLeming:
a) Win World Test Championship.

b) Win tours in SENA countries. Needs series win in at least one, draws in the rest sometime over the course of his captaincy.

c) Achieve something in India. If he can do this, without spin resources he will be regarded as a great captain because he'll need to coax perfomances out of mediocre spinners or captain his quicks to perform in places hostile to them.

HOW is he supposed to do this? Not sure NZ aren't booked to play another significant Test tour until May 2022, England... Only other significant Test tour they have his Pakistan October 22... then nothing much until the FTP runs out in 2023...

From a NZ point of view it is essential they win that WTC for the status & series hype so that India, Oz , England will invite them quickly in 2023/2024 while they still have this good team.

 

[Titan24]

He has taken NZ to no 1 position in the test rankings first time in their history which is a big achievement. He is still 30 and taking into account NZ culture irrespective of results he is going to remain captain most probably till his retirement so can achieve many more things.

However, it is also a fact that is he is leading NZ side in arguably their best cricketing era ever and have much more resources at his disposal than Fleming. Fleming was a pretty good reader of the game but numbers wise Williamson is going to end up as a greater captain across the formats. A second ICC tournament win in NZ history would be something which Williamson will definitely be eying upon as in such eras are best opportunity to fill that trophy cabinet.

 

[Ab Fan]

A very good captain, probably the best of this generation but Fleming is one of ATG captains in the world.

 

[Heisenberg111]

Williamson has a team that just might surpass some of what FLeming achieved (with a far more limited team). But he hasn't actually done much apart from win at home yet. I suppose ODI WC Final is an achievement of sorts but you don't hear Pakistan claiming '99 as some huge achievement.

Williamson has a far, far more talented team. A far superior batting lineup & an atg (for NZ) pace attack. If he doesn't achieve what Fleming did, he should be rated poorly as a leader.

What Kane needs to do to even get close: draw in Oz, draw in India, win in England. None of these are easy, for any team. He has the team to achieve this in Oz & England. He lacks the bowlers to win a Test in India, so it'll have to be a batathon.

How could Kane surpass FLeming:
a) Win World Test Championship.

b) Win tours in SENA countries. Needs series win in at least one, draws in the rest sometime over the course of his captaincy.

c) Achieve something in India. If he can do this, without spin resources he will be regarded as a great captain because he'll need to coax perfomances out of mediocre spinners or captain his quicks to perform in places hostile to them.

HOW is he supposed to do this? Not sure NZ aren't booked to play another significant Test tour until May 2022, England... Only other significant Test tour they have his Pakistan October 22... then nothing much until the FTP runs out in 2023...

From a NZ point of view it is essential they win that WTC for the status & series hype so that India, Oz , England will invite them quickly in 2023/2024 while they still have this good team.

Good post, I agree.