Cousin Marriages [Discussion Thread]

[Wazeeri]

We and other species from the Animal and Plant Kingdoms all the way down to single celled organisms have been driven by evolution to seek diversity in our gene pools for a multitude of reasons.

Disagree with this, evolution theory as it is right now requires repetitive inbreeding at an earlier stage. Evolution is all about speciation and offspring from different species are worst off then off spring from consanganeous marriages, much worst off.

Single celled organisms do not seek diversity in their gene pool because they have asexual reproduction. They don't have to find a partner, cousin or otherwise.

Infact if you look at it from an evolutionary point of view, communities with genetic disorders would be avoided and they would be forced into inbreeding. This will result in them being erradicated and the fittest surviving.

 

[Wazeeri]

do cousin marriages result in dimmer children?

No it doesn't and there is nothing to support this.

There is a slightly higher chance of an offspring being born with genetic disorders.

 

[161]

Disagree with this, evolution theory as it is right now requires repetitive inbreeding at an earlier stage. Evolution is all about speciation and offspring from different species are worst off then off spring from consanganeous marriages, much worst off.

Single celled organisms do not seek diversity in their gene pool because they have asexual reproduction. They don't have to find a partner, cousin or otherwise.

Infact if you look at it from an evolutionary point of view, communities with genetic disorders would be avoided and they would be forced into inbreeding. This will result in them being erradicated and the fittest surviving.

What the ???

OK there Mr. Wazeeri, PhD in Wikipedia Biology

 

[Wazeeri]

What the ???

OK there Mr. Wazeeri, PhD in Wikipedia Biology

Mr Wikipedia is only trying to bring balance to this debate which has now become infested with the idea that somehow cousin marriages induce birth defects.

Generally your family has to have a history already for cousin marriages to be an issue.

Overwhelming majority of cousin marriages are OK just like regular marriages. There is an over reaction on this thread.

 

[KabuliPashtoon]

Its not the end of the world if you are married to your cousin.... remember that there are plenty living happy lives....

BUT in order for the long term benefit of our society the practice needs to be limited.

I think this thread should be a sticky!

well i dont know if we can ever be happy. I was forced into it, and now im reading all of this, puts a guy down thats for sure

 

[Indiafan]

well i dont know if we can ever be happy. I was forced into it, and now im reading all of this, puts a guy down thats for sure

Bhai there is nothing you can change in the past now. But don't hold any grudges and try to make it a successful marriage. God-willing everything will work out fine.

 

[KabuliPashtoon]

Bhai there is nothing you can change in the past now. But don't hold any grudges and try to make it a successful marriage. God-willing everything will work out fine.

Not if I finish that time machine

but seriously, not to turn this thread about me, but I don't know what you mean not hold grudges I assume my elements of my marriage (she and i being forced into it) mean failure. we dont exactly get along becuz of such

 

[Legal Eye]

Then surely it is best to part ways and make a new life for yourself?

 

[KabuliPashtoon]

its not that simple for a lot of reasons. family and such involved, and other stuff...


sorry if i derailed this thread, esp. since ima newcomer

 

[161]

Generally your family has to have a history already for cousin marriages to be an issue.

That is incorrect .. it only takes one round of interbreeding for bad genes inherit in a particular family to combine.

Overwhelming majority of cousin marriages are OK just like regular marriages. There is an over reaction on this thread.

Callous remark.

I'd like you to meet just one family, one child who is a victim of this.

 

[Wazeeri]

That is incorrect .. it only takes one round of interbreeding for bad genes inherit in a particular family to combine

I don't think you understood.

Callous remark.

I'd like you to meet just one family, one child who is a victim of this.

If you have run out of points or if this discussion is beyond you then I suggest you stop. Suggesting that I am averse to the plight of individuals involved, is a cheap and pathetic debating tactic.

 

[161]

Suggesting that I am averse to the plight of individuals involved, is a cheap and pathetic debating tactic.

The plight of your ego is the only thing you seem to care about in this thread.

Wazeeri always wins .. right ?

But not this time .. you are backing a dangerous practice that results in unnecessary pain, suffering and death ... and I'm not gonna let you get away with it.

 

[KabuliPashtoon]

i wish this topic was discussed more in our communities

 

[Amir]

That is incorrect .. it only takes one round of interbreeding for bad genes inherit in a particular family to combine.

No more than any regular family. Its when you get into multiple rounds there is a heightened chance.

 

[Wazeeri]

Wazeeri always wins .. right ?

But not this time .. you are backing a dangerous practice that results in unnecessary pain, suffering and death ... and I'm not gonna let you get away with it.

"I'm not going to let you get away with it"????????
Do you think this is some Rambo movie?

These marriages are as dangerous as marriages between afro-americans, european jews and many other races.

If you can't argue sensibly then visit and stay in other threads, getting personal when you are running out of arguments is not going to achieve anything.

Think about the people who have children from these marriages who are perfectly normal (as most of them are), what would their reaction be to you suggesting that there is something wrong with their children just because you don't understand the issue?

 

[Maula Jutt]

This view is extremely useful when you want to avoid getting married to a cousin. It helped me A LOT when my mom wanted me to marry her sister's daughter and while she used emotional blackail to get me to agree, I used this study and, after roping in my dad to side with me, I won in the end.

 

[Abdullah22]

After reading this thread I got shocked but then I looked at myself and said well I'm in no way mentally retarded or have any kind of disorder I'm physically fit and very athletic. I might have a weak eyesight but that's about it.

My parents are cousins and I have 3 other siblings all healthy allhamdullilah.

I know at least 2 other families where the parents are cousins and their kids are healthy too.

A lot of people in Pakistan tend to arrange marriages within the family.
Population of Pakistan is 180 million and growing.

Yes their might be some cousin marriages gone wrong but it happens in 'non cousin' marriages too.

 

[KabuliPashtoon]

most of my family and tribe marry cousins, obviously, not really any sickness among them like described here

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

"I'm not going to let you get away with it"????????
Do you think this is some Rambo movie?

These marriages are as dangerous as marriages between afro-americans, european jews and many other races.

If you can't argue sensibly then visit and stay in other threads, getting personal when you are running out of arguments is not going to achieve anything.

Think about the people who have children from these marriages who are perfectly normal (as most of them are), what would their reaction be to you suggesting that there is something wrong with their children just because you don't understand the issue?

Do you think that the mental capability of those frequently frequenting cousin marriages isnt affected?

Countries and sub populations that frequently engage in cousin marriages have been affected, havent they?

Has the IQ of British Pakistanis been affected? Why are there so many "thick" people within our community?

http://www.pnas.org/content/75/8/3906.full.pdf

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dys.271/abstract

http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdataupload/upload/insa/INSA_1/20005bbc_407.pdf

 

[Wazeeri]

Mr Khan Ji

Both of the links speaks of recessive alleles, we have already established that this is a problem and marriages close to the family will increase the chances of these diseases manifesting. However we need to take into consideration how many families in general carry these silent genetic disorders? If your family doesn't then do you have anything to worry about?

Why are we assuming that all people are carriers? Especially when we see that cousin marriages increase your actual chance of genetic disorders by only a max of 3%?

We know that certain races carry certain genes more so then others. These genes are detrimental as well as beneficial. Inbreeding within these races would increase the chances of genetic disorders or benefits. However on the global scale we don't see a very big effect of these marriages. Tests done on specific races is not going to provide us an answer to this problem.

I still would suggest that the answer is for everyone to be tested while planning a birth.

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Mr Khan Ji

Both of the links speaks of recessive alleles, we have already established that this is a problem and marriages close to the family will increase the chances of these diseases manifesting. However we need to take into consideration how many families in general carry these silent genetic disorders? If your family doesn't then do you have anything to worry about?

Why are we assuming that all people are carriers? Especially when we see that cousin marriages increase your actual chance of genetic disorders by only a max of 3%?

We know that certain races carry certain genes more so then others. These genes are detrimental as well as beneficial. Inbreeding within these races would increase the chances of genetic disorders or benefits. However on the global scale we don't see a very big effect of these marriages. Tests done on specific races is not going to provide us an answer to this problem.

I still would suggest that the answer is for everyone to be tested while planning a birth.

doesn't your 3 per cent refer to known physical disorders? I don't think people are being tested for any mental retardation.

Agreed tests on specific races won't. but it is a guide until the full population is tested.

I think there is enough evidence for mental retardation to be taken more seriously than you are suggesting.

I am not saying that all are carriers. but the very idea of cousin marriages means that these will be more concentrated.

 

[Wazeeri]

MKJ

How are we going to base rulings on the unknown and unsubstantiated?

The specific races being tested cannot even be used as a guide because there must have been a reason why these races were selected in the first place. Maybe these communities showed signs of low IQ, Dyslexia....etc.

I am not saying that all are carriers. but the very idea of cousin marriages means that these will be more concentrated.

More will be concentrated within a concentration of communities, those outside of the communities, those who are a very big majority, are not going to be affected by marrying their cousins.

We have no evidence what so ever of these marriages actually inducing genetic disorders. All we know is that families which carry certain genes would increase the chances of these disorders manifesting through inbreeding.

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

MKJ

How are we going to base rulings on the unknown and unsubstantiated?

The specific races being tested cannot even be used as a guide because there must have been a reason why these races were selected in the first place. Maybe these communities showed signs of low IQ, Dyslexia....etc.


More will be concentrated within a concentration of communities, those outside of the communities, those who are a very big majority, are not going to be affected by marrying their cousins.

We have no evidence what so ever of these marriages actually inducing genetic disorders. All we know is that families which carry certain genes would increase the chances of these disorders manifesting through inbreeding.

1) I am not making a conclusion on inducement, merely saying that there is sufficient evidence to

a) do more research
b) let people know about the research that has been done
c) reduce cousin marriages to reduce the risk of these recessive genes getting more concentarted

2) The whole point of the research was comparing non cousins and cousins in the same community so it doesnt matter if these communities showed signs of low IQ etc.

3) When cousin mariages are happening generation after generation then there will be many seprate concentrations all over the place.

Agreed that a first time cousin marriage after no history of cousn marriages is less likely to be an issue.

4) Lets use reverse logic, if there were less cousin marriages, would we signficantly reduce the concentration of mental retardation within our communities?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1015484/pdf/jmedgene00065-0042.pdf

(see in particular reference 10)

5) I agree that cousin marriages dont cause retardation directly (as far as we are aware - it may well be - empirical evidence suggest it might), but cousin marriages within our communities are definitely increasing the concentration of mental retardation. The effects of which will be felt for generations to come.

 

[Wazeeri]

1a + 1b agree with this.

1c I have a slight issue with this. The number of genetic disorders in general births is quite high itself and the better answer is to use the current technology we have to identify possibility of birth defects before pregnancy by all couples not just cousins.

2) It does matter because if this deterioration is due to some troublesome recessive alleles then we have an explanation of how the problem came about. If the study was done across the races and the results were the same we would be able to conclude that such unions somehow induce retarddation.

3) I don't understand point (3) how can first time cousin marriage not be as much of an issue without any history but repetitive marriages become an issue without any history?

This is again suggesting that cousin marriages induce genetic defects.

4) We will need to establish what we mean by "significant" and "our communities". Remeber that majority genetic defects are from regular marriages because majority marriages are regular marriages. If we wish to reduce this significantly we need to be screening couples before they plan to get pregnant.

5) We Pakistanis are made from many races and we don't tend to get married outside our own race hence racially "our community" doesn't mean anything.

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

1a + 1b agree with this.

1c I have a slight issue with this. The number of genetic disorders in general births is quite high itself and the better answer is to use the current technology we have to identify possibility of birth defects before pregnancy by all couples not just cousins.

2) It does matter because if this deterioration is due to some troublesome recessive alleles then we have an explanation of how the problem came about. If the study was done across the races and the results were the same we would be able to conclude that such unions somehow induce retarddation.

3) I don't understand point (3) how can first time cousin marriage not be as much of an issue without any history but repetitive marriages become an issue without any history?

This is again suggesting that cousin marriages induce genetic defects.

4) We will need to establish what we mean by "significant" and "our communities". Remeber that majority genetic defects are from regular marriages because majority marriages are regular marriages. If we wish to reduce this significantly we need to be screening couples before they plan to get pregnant.

5) We Pakistanis are made from many races and we don't tend to get married outside our own race hence racially "our community" doesn't mean anything.

1c - agreed - but lets not ignore the cousin related ones - many try and sweep it under the carpet....


2) there are troublesome recessive genes and they exist in many populations causing similar issues in cousin marriages

http://www.sci.u-szeged.hu/ABS/2003/ActaHP/4747.pdf

http://www.forward.com/articles/11430/

http://ncd.org.jo/index2.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_view&gid=132&Itemid=79

http://jmg.bmj.com/content/40/12/925.extract

Not saying they (necassarily) induce - but end up increasing the frequency of occurrence as these recessive genese are averywhere....

3) I think you misunderstood me.

If there is a history of a particular recessive genes within a community then generations of cousin marriages will result in these genes being concentrated. - If you then marry a cousin - you have an issue.....

If there was no history of cousin marriages and you married a cousin, then the risk of you both having any particular recessive gene will be much much lower.

4) Not sure what you mean... my point still stands.

I am referring to the prorportion within our sub-polulation - not on an absolute basis.

5) It does - because within these individual sub-communities the recessive genes are becoming more and more concentrated, such that when people get married the recessive genes become active genes.... they might be slightly different variants of recessive genes....

hence if we cross pollinate the recessive genes wont become active....

apologies for spellings...

 

[161]

No more than any regular family. Its when you get into multiple rounds there is a heightened chance.

Amir,

Consider a lady who has a recessive allele that leads to a congenital heart defect in the homozygous state. Lets say this gene has a prevalence of 1 in 1000 giving the heart defect a prevalence of 1 in a million (1000^2).

She marries a non-related person and has kids who have a 1 in 2 chance of inheriting this gene from her.

Her kids then marry non-related people and have kids who now have a 1 in 4 chance of inheriting the defective gene.

Now lets say these children who are first cousins marry each other.

Since they have a 1 in 4 chance oh having the gene their children will have a 1 in 16 chance of having the two copies necessary to produce the congenital heart defect.

Here you have just one round of cousin marriage bringing the probability of this disorder up from 1 in 1,000,000 to 1 in 16.

And that is just for this one disorder, the original lady could have many more defective genes present and there are more complex genetics then just these recessive/dominant alleles that also need to be considered.

 

[Wazeeri]

2) Yes there are many but are they so widespread that it becomes significant? That's my point.

4) It depends on how big this sub-portion of our community is. If there is an issue with one of the communities then they are at risk. I will repeat that majority of birth defects are from regular marriages which form the majority of the marriages. The real "significant" problem lies with them.

5) The Nazi take on this would be that repetitive in-breeding would get rid of these genes.

 

[Wazeeri]

Consider a lady who has a recessive allele that leads to a congenital

Now consider the other ladies who don't have this allele. What is the proportion between the two types of ladies?

If it is 999 ladies to this 1 lady then we stop cousin marriages for 99.9% of the population unnecessarily.

 

[161]

Now consider the other ladies who don't have this allele. What is the proportion between the two types of ladies?

If it is 999 ladies to this 1 lady then we stop cousin marriages for 99.9% of the population unnecessarily.

You forgot to take into account the thousands of other genes we have .. no ?

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

2) Yes there are many but are they so widespread that it becomes significant? That's my point.

4) It depends on how big this sub-portion of our community is. If there is an issue with one of the communities then they are at risk. I will repeat that majority of birth defects are from regular marriages which form the majority of the marriages. The real "significant" problem lies with them.

5) The Nazi take on this would be that repetitive in-breeding would get rid of these genes.

2) Significant enough... especially when the incumbents are muslims and the mix of passion and retardedness leads to certain other issues....

4) Signficant enough - I think its more prevalent than you think it is.
Too many retarded people around!

Again look at it the other way - shouldnt we be trying to reduce the problem rather than aggravating it....

the research is only in its infancy - the limited research shows retardedness to an extent.... empirical evidene suggests its more prevalent....

5) Glad we're not Nazi's then....

 

[sa88]

well i dont know if we can ever be happy. I was forced into it, and now im reading all of this, puts a guy down thats for sure

Does the D word come to mind?

 

[Wazeeri]

You forgot to take into account the thousands of other genes we have .. no ?

Nope the argument stands with all genes as well.

You have a population X with problems.
You have a population Y without problems.

Marriages in both these populations show that there are genetic disorders at percentage A with an increase of a maximum 3% for cousin marriages. This should suggest that population X is not large enough to require an across the board ruling.

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

Nope the argument stands with all genes as well.

You have a population X with problems.
You have a population Y without problems.

Marriages in both these populations show that there are genetic disorders at percentage A with an increase of a maximum 3% for cousin marriages. This should suggest that population X is not large enough to require an across the board ruling.

The 3% covers certain counted physical abnormalities.... not all of the issues.

 

[Wazeeri]

2) Come on
4) I think you are concentrating your analysis on only the UK pakistanis upto 70% of whom come from the same few villages or atleast the same small region.

Again look at it the other way - shouldnt we be trying to reduce the problem rather than aggravating it....

If we were to take this logic then marriages within afro-americans, european jews, Some indian races, north eastern Pakistanis and Nigerians should be restricted.

 

[MR__KHAN__JI]

2) Come on
4) I think you are concentrating your analysis on only the UK pakistanis upto 70% of whom come from the same few villages or atleast the same small region.

If we were to take this logic then marriages within afro-americans, european jews, Some indian races, north eastern Pakistanis and Nigerians should be restricted.

2) yes come on.

4) See the research I have quoted. The research is the tip of the iceberg. Same logic applies with many all sub communities not just that one. It may not be as pronounced, and it may not be the same recessive gene.

4b) Highlighted and educated and persuaded. Not forced!

 

[161]

Nope the argument stands with all genes as well.

You have a population X with problems.
You have a population Y without problems.

Marriages in both these populations show that there are genetic disorders at percentage A with an increase of a maximum 3% for cousin marriages. This should suggest that population X is not large enough to require an across the board ruling.

???????????????

I think you misunderstood what I said because your "argument" here doesn't speak to it.

You said that we stopped the marriages of the other 999 women unnecessarily because they would be OK at that particular locus.

That is correct however there are 25,000 other genes where they might have problems.

Mother nature gave us two copies of each gene for a reason.

 

[161]

5) I agree that cousin marriages dont cause retardation directly (as far as we are aware - it may well be - empirical evidence suggest it might), but cousin marriages within our communities are definitely increasing the concentration of mental retardation. The effects of which will be felt for generations to come.

Important point you are making.

Not only can we prove the harm of cousin marriages when looking at simple singe gene inheritance, there is research that also shows that they are also harmful for things like intelligence which has a complicated polygenic inheritance pattern,

One study showed a five times increase in the rate of mental retardation in consanguineous marriages.

http://www.pnas.org/content/75/8/3906.full.pdf

http://www.springerlink.com/content/x699045j75427361/

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2788.1991.tb01042.x/abstract

http://neurologyasia.org/articles/20073_015.pdf

 

[KabuliPashtoon]

Does the D word come to mind?

lot more complicated than that, family and such involved, plus im not a citizen here, i dont know what that wuld do. but anyway enough of this, i dont want to turn this into some personal thread bout me

 

[in_cutter]

Two weeks ago, I was told my youngest daughter has autistic spectrum syndrome. That's three of my children with some sort of defect.

Guys I urge you...think hard about your future before marrying in family.

 

[kingusama92]

Two weeks ago, I was told my youngest daughter has autistic spectrum syndrome. That's three of my children with some sort of defect.

Guys I urge you...think hard about your future before marrying in family.

InshAllah, the treatment will go well for her.

I just wanted to ask (hope it's not too personal), but why did you end up having 3+ children (not sure how many you have)? Was it a case of all three being diagnosed a long while after birth?

I always remember you whenever I see people getting married to their cousins. Hopefully, no one else has to go through such a traumatic experience.

 

[in_cutter]

InshAllah, the treatment will go well for her.

I just wanted to ask (hope it's not too personal), but why did you end up having 3+ children (not sure how many you have)? Was it a case of all three being diagnosed a long while after birth?

I always wanted another boy, but was not to be. But im happy with what I have (one boy, three girls).

My son started with epilepsy at 6months..but we had no idea his condition would be severe as it is until he was aged around two (still no diagnoses). My second daughter is perfectly fine. Third one..mainly lack of speech/learning difficulty..youngest age two...started showing signs that something is not right at around 18months.

 

[kingusama92]

I always wanted another boy, but was not to be. But im happy with what I have (one boy, three girls).

My son started with epilepsy at 6months..but we had no idea his condition would be severe as it is until he was aged around two (still no diagnoses). My second daughter is perfectly fine. Third one..mainly lack of speech/learning difficulty..youngest age two...started showing signs that something is not right at around 18months.

Mashallah, nice to hear you've been blessed with four children.

Yes, epilepsy can be quite difficult to handle for everyone involved.

One can only hope the treatments work out for the three children that were born with these difficulties.

 

[Aly]

Marrying your Cousins!

Just wanted to raise this issue since over a period of time I have noticed that this particular issue attracts lots of criticism from the non-muslim circles all over.

It's almost seems as if there's some sort of silent consensus among both religious as well as secular world ( barring Islam of course ) that this is something very low and is almost equivalent to marrying your own sisters / brothers

So was just wondering as to what could be the reason for it in Islam which mind you is a religion which otherwise borrows a lot from the other Abrahamic religions

Also, of all the other religions in the world, is islam the only religion which allows you such kind of liberty?

Besides, How do you guys look at this issue in the light Of modern science which also believes that marrying within your family might raise the chances of abnormalities in your offsprings?

 

[Prince_Pathan]

dont believe in it...

huge chance of kids having genetic issues...

i know of way too many examples to not go there...besides 1st cousins are technically like your brothers and sisters...

distant is fine...but close no

 

[mithun_minhas]

Marriages between closely related people is strictly prohibited among Hindus in North India...

How ever I have observed that some Hindu communities in South India still do this... Uncle marrying Niece, Boy marrying his Dad's Sister's daughter etc.... How ever it is not ok to marry your Dad's brother's daughter for them... The logic is that genetic traits are passed on from only Dad's which is pure ignorance. Worst part is that they are still making movies on them and glorifying them

I heard that it is very prevalent among Pakistanis. Is it in Islam or just pertinent to Pak?

 

[Gujar]

Aly, you mention Islam as though it somehow recommends it or demands it. On the contrary, Islam tells us to not divide ourselves on cultural/caste/family lines. Because it is allowed for Muslims is Alhamdulillah a great benefit but this does not make it compulsory. It just shows you the choice that Allah SWT has bestowed upon us.

 

[Aly]

dont believe in it...

huge chance of kids having genetic issues...

i know of way too many examples to not go there...besides 1st cousins are technically like your brothers and sisters...

distant is fine...but close no

In fact your post also reminds me of the fact that with in Pakistan there are certain communities which strictly avoid marrying within in their families despite being conventional muslims otherwise!

One of them is meiu community, may be someone can add more!

So I guess this only shows that this particular issue is controversial even within the muslim community itself.
or are these just those pre-conversion hindu traditions still being followed within some communities?

 

[Black Zero]

doesn't look so harmful
http://www.cousincouples.com/?page=facts

 

[AamchiMumbaikar]

It is strictly prohibited, they are like our own brothers/ sisters. Right from childhood we refer each other as bhayya/ didi, so even that thought never comes in mind.

It's not good even from medical fronts...

 

[Black Zero]

It is strictly prohibited, they are like our own brothers/ sisters. Right from childhood we refer each other as bhayya/ didi, so even that thought never comes in mind.

It's not good even from medical fronts...

But not actually brother and sister.

It shouldn't be encouraged but no need to place a ban on it either.

 

[Aly]

Aly, you mention Islam as though it somehow recommends it or demands it. On the contrary, Islam tells us to not divide ourselves on cultural/caste/family lines. Because it is allowed for Muslims is Alhamdulillah a great benefit but this does not make it compulsory. It just shows you the choice that Allah SWT has bestowed upon us.

Well Pardons if you got the wrong impression but I am just trying to find out as to why islam didn't restrict us from such activities when on the other hand it has very elaborate instructions as to who we should or shouldn't marry?

 

[velu]

Marriages between closely related people is strictly prohibited among Hindus in North India...

How ever I have observed that some Hindu communities in South India still do this... Uncle marrying Niece, Boy marrying his Dad's Sister's daughter etc.... How ever it is not ok to marry your Dad's brother's daughter for them... The logic is that genetic traits are passed on from only Dad's which is pure ignorance. Worst part is that they are still making movies on them and glorifying them

I heard that it is very prevalent among Pakistanis. Is it in Islam or just pertinent to Pak?

I think its something to do with paternal or maternal lineage and nothing related to genetics.
In paternal society fathers side relatives are brothers/sisters but mothers side relatives are eligible to marry.
Reverse incase of maternal society.

 

[akheR]

In fact your post also reminds me of the fact that with in Pakistan there are certain communities which strictly avoid marrying within in their families despite being conventional muslims otherwise!

One of them is meiu community, may be someone can add more!

So I guess this only shows that this particular issue is controversial even within the muslim community itself.
or are these just those pre-conversion hindu traditions still being followed within some communities?

My father told me that it's forbidden to marry with your cousin in some Rajput clans, like ours.

 

[Tera Gawaandi]

I think Pakistan benifited from this, marry your cousin, go abroad and sponsor family. It's easiest method for Pakistani's to immigrate to West.

I think its more prevalent in Pakistan compared to other Islamic countries, people who migrated from Pakistan to India during partition indulge in this, its rare occurance though. I have observed Khatri clan Punjabis are okay with this, where as Jatts/Rajput etc strongly oppose this.

 

[akheR]

Marriages between closely related people is strictly prohibited among Hindus in North India...

How ever I have observed that some Hindu communities in South India still do this... Uncle marrying Niece, Boy marrying his Dad's Sister's daughter etc.... How ever it is not ok to marry your Dad's brother's daughter for them... The logic is that genetic traits are passed on from only Dad's which is pure ignorance. Worst part is that they are still making movies on them and glorifying them

I heard that it is very prevalent among Pakistanis. Is it in Islam or just pertinent to Pak?

I know some North Africans who marry their cousins too. For Pakistan, I think that they 'profited' of the fact that Islam doesn't forbid it, contrarily to Hinduism. But uncle marrying niece... not that far.
It permits to keep wealth within the family/clan.

 

[TheHK16]

4:23 Forbidden unto you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and your father's sisters, and your mother's sisters, and your brother's daughters and your sister's daughters, and your foster-mothers, and your foster-sisters, and your mothers-in-law, and your step-daughters who are under your protection (born) of your women unto whom ye have gone in - but if ye have not gone in unto them, then it is no sin for you (to marry their daughters) - and the wives of your sons who (spring) from your own loins. And (it is forbidden unto you) that ye should have two sisters together, except what hath already happened (of that nature) in the past. Lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.

 

[kingusama92]

Science aside, it's plain awkward to think about marrying your cousin.

A lot of people go down that route, though. It's their choice.

 

[hokie]

Aly, you speak as if marrying your cousin is forbidden in Christianity and Judaism but it isn't. In fact it used to be quite a common practice just about everwhere.

I would feel awkward with it, but as kingusama said it's a personal choice. To each his own

 

[PakistanPaindabad]

Just wanted to raise this issue since over a period of time I have noticed that this particular issue attracts lots of criticism from the non-muslim circles all over.

It's almost seems as if there's some sort of silent consensus among both religious as well as secular world ( barring Islam of course ) that this is something very low and is almost equivalent to marrying your own sisters / brothers

So was just wondering as to what could be the reason for it in Islam which mind you is a religion which otherwise borrows a lot from the other Abrahamic religions

Also, of all the other religions in the world, is islam the only religion which allows you such kind of liberty?

Besides, How do you guys look at this issue in the light Of modern science which also believes that marrying within your family might raise the chances of abnormalities in your offsprings?

Islam borrows a lot from Abrahamic religions?

I am not sure if you are muslim or not (if you are a muslim than sorry for this explanation as you would already know), but the belief is that all these books or Abrahamic faiths were Allah's message, and Islam, also was the last of Allah's message with Prophet Muhammad (saw) being the final messenger. So Islam doesnt borrow anything from Abrahamic religions, when all the Abrahamic religions are also a word of Allah. Same creator.

As to the topic, show me where in any other religion has it been disallowed? Islam allows it but it is not encouraged. Like the rest said to each their own.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Bottom line, marry as far from your family as possible to reduce any genetic defects in your kids...

The risk may be only 2 or 3% if you marry your cousin, but its not worth taking it.

 

[RWAC]

But not actually brother and sister.

It shouldn't be encouraged but no need to place a ban on it either.

Why not? When it is documented medically that it leads to a higher risk of If this is not ban, then why ban, and not just discourage, incest in the first place also?

Some practices need to be banned if they lead to higher risk because people are not going to be enlightened enough to know the damage it could cause. The average guy in Asia wouldn't know that marrying cousins leads to a higher risk for their offspring. They will only do or not do it depending on what culture they are being raised in.

Think of the risk it puts so many lives at - they may not show any outwardly signs of physical unhealthiness, but they could be susceptible to conditions all their lives. That's why a ban is important until the masses become knowledgeable about this issue.

 

[RWAC]

Just wanted to ask you guys - what degree of risk would there be if a guy marries a girl who dad's family might have had the same lineage 6 generations ago? Almost negligible?

 

[Aly]

Islam borrows a lot from Abrahamic religions?

I am not sure if you are muslim or not (if you are a muslim than sorry for this explanation as you would already know), but the belief is that all these books or Abrahamic faiths were Allah's message, and Islam, also was the last of Allah's message with Prophet Muhammad (saw) being the final messenger. So Islam doesnt borrow anything from Abrahamic religions, when all the Abrahamic religions are also a word of Allah. Same creator.

As to the topic, show me where in any other religion has it been disallowed? Islam allows it but it is not encouraged. Like the rest said to each their own.

Ignore my rather limited knowledge but is it allowed in Christianity?

For some reason I always got this impression that it wasn't.

Especially after watching the general response of Christians on this issue?

 

[Down2Earth]

cousin marriages should be banned. marrying sisters is prohibited and cousins are sisters, i don't care what anyone says.

 

[AbdulrazzaqFan]

Yes, it is true, proven by evidence based medicine--that consanguineous marriages (cousin marriages) increase the chances of certain diseases manifesting themselves. If inbreeding goes on for many generations, the increase in morbidity is significant.

Of course, we as Muslims can never ban cousin marriages, because Allah swt allowed it, and we cannot disallow what Allah allowed.

I believe the issue isn't really about cousin marriages but rather about inbreeding that goes on for many generations! In other words, an occasional cousin marriage here and there will NOT significantly increase the chances of disease manifestation. So why should we ban ALL cousin marriages? That is extremism.

In reality, the West has banned cousin marriages not because of diseases, but because they find it 'nasty' to marry someone whom you grow up with...they grow up like brothers and sisters, so how can they marry them? This is because their culture does not observe purdah, whereas our religion (which is superior to them in modesty) very much does. Therefore, when cousins reach the age of puberty in Islam, then we do not allow them to intermingle with the cousins of the opposite gender. Therefore, the relationship you have with your male/female cousin is going to be just like one you have had with any other guy/girl whom you've known since childhood (but who was not a relative).

Lastly, cousin marriages are permissible but are neither encouraged nor discouraged in Islam, so if one worries about inbreeding then they shouldn't look into marrying their cousin.

 

[gameovais]

I don't have any issues with cousin marriages if they happen for the right reasons.

Sadly people have arranged marriages to cousins for all the wrong reasons.

Some parents, even my own, don't think girls other than their nieces exist. Thankfully for me though, I have no female cousin who is around my age, they're either already married or still kids.

 

[biophysics]

Marriage Discussion

As a pakistani living in US, I wonder what the attitudes are of pakistanis and expat pakistani's to cousin marriage.

Have been doing some research regarding this: apparently pakistan is #1 in the world in this? Something like 70%.

What is the ulema/quran/hadith perspective on this?

Also read some studies about genetic malformation and pakistani's having the highest rate among those living in britain

Any advice/experience from those married to cousins, or further relatives is appreciated

 

[biophysics]

Any views from ppers are appreciated. Including Aussies, Indians and any other posters. Any one with medical knowledge as well

 

[sada90]

i got married with my cuz , last year .. , i don't have any kids yet ,
i am very happy Allhumdulillah
my sis got married with cuz also few years ago, she got two kids, and her dad in law had kidney disease , and she and her husband and kids are all well
one of my other cuz got married with her cuz and they got that bone marrow disease ( i can't remember the name of the that disease but they can't produce kids , because of family marriage )
so it varies

 

[KingKhanWC]

As a pakistani living in US, I wonder what the attitudes are of pakistanis and expat pakistani's to cousin marriage.

Have been doing some research regarding this: apparently pakistan is #1 in the world in this? Something like 70%.

What is the ulema/quran/hadith perspective on this?

Also read some studies about genetic malformation and pakistani's having the highest rate among those living in britain

Any advice/experience from those married to cousins, or further relatives is appreciated

There is nothing wrong in marrying a cousin in Islam but it is recommended to marry away from the family.

As for genetics, it becomes a problem when there is a history of cousin marriages with the same family. The actual chance of genetic disorders is no more than the chance of genetic disorders for a woman of over 40 years having a baby.

 

[SIMBA]

Cousin marriages frek me out. there has been a lot in family and there has been some disable children and also a lot of still births.

I am sure my parents will prefer a cousin marriage. Tho they have been put off by my cousins wife who was within the family. They realised that integration was a hype with cousin marriages and family politics is another problem. But still they may favour this.

I want to marry my girlfriend who is a: Pakistan muslim but a mixed ethnicity. Tho i dont think parents will allow that So am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I dont know what to do tbh lol but i would hate a cousin marriage which mat be on the cards.

ps: Am not playing, stringing along my gf as I told her from day one. We just enjoy the present and hope for the best in the future

 

[Pakistaniboy]

Cousin Marriages: No Way For Me.

My Parents share same view.

 

[kingusama92]

As a pakistani living in US, I wonder what the attitudes are of pakistanis and expat pakistani's to cousin marriage.

Have been doing some research regarding this: apparently pakistan is #1 in the world in this? Something like 70%.

What is the ulema/quran/hadith perspective on this?

Also read some studies about genetic malformation and pakistani's having the highest rate among those living in britain

Any advice/experience from those married to cousins, or further relatives is appreciated

As stated before in this thread, I am not a fan of cousin marriages. Best of wishes to those who pursue those routes, but it's not for me.

Cousins feel way too close to being sisters for me.

As for genetics, like KKWC said it's only with families with continuous history of cousin marriages. Generation after generation.

Thing is, there are quite a few families who continue to marry within the family. The chances sky rocket in these cases of giving birth to disabled children.

 

[Radiance Of Australis]

Even though cousin marriages are prevalent in our family, I have no intention of marrying a cousin. I can't even think about it. I still treat them like my own brothers and sisters.
Although in the current generation of our family, none of my cousins/young relatives are marrying first or second cousins.

 

[shan]

If baby isnt disabled doesnt mean it doesnt have other genetic defects not so apparent. This is what happens when genes doesnt change. If couple are not cousins then missing genes will be less and baby will be more healty.

 

[Black Zero]

Why not? When it is documented medically that it leads to a higher risk of If this is not ban, then why ban, and not just discourage, incest in the first place also?

Some practices need to be banned if they lead to higher risk because people are not going to be enlightened enough to know the damage it could cause. The average guy in Asia wouldn't know that marrying cousins leads to a higher risk for their offspring. They will only do or not do it depending on what culture they are being raised in.

Think of the risk it puts so many lives at - they may not show any outwardly signs of physical unhealthiness, but they could be susceptible to conditions all their lives. That's why a ban is important until the masses become knowledgeable about this issue.

Sorry for replaying little late.

There is 2-3% chance of genetic defect in any marriage...should not we just ban marriages ...in this case?


In cousin marriages, risk is about 4-5%..

 

[IgnitedMind]

I escaped one!!!!!!!!!! Couple of months ago, I told my parents about my GF...and they agreed...and otherwise...I have a cousin just 6 months younger to me...and before I told my parents about my Girl friend...they wanted me to marry her.

Even otherwise, I would have convinced not too..coz I cannot risk my future...it will tough life if there is a genetic defect in the Kid....

 

[Salma_T]

I am married to non relative even non pakistani but we both have auto immune diseases in our families and heart disease. So we can never tell unless we all have genetic tests done prior to marriage.

Personally I do not agree with cousin marriages have even been told off for being quite vocal about to a relative but each to their own I say.

 

[LethalSami]

Cousins make dozens!

though i'm not into cousin marriages (since i ain't interested) or else

 

[moumotta]

Sorry for replaying little late.

There is 2-3% chance of genetic defect in any marriage...should not we just ban marriages ...in this case?


In cousin marriages, risk is about 4-5%..

I think that figure of 4-5% is for cousin marriages where ancestors are unrelated. For communities practicing cousin marriages the risk increases with each generation of inbreeding.