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Cousin Marriages [Discussion Thread]

Had a brief look and all I could find were some figures compiled by the NSPCC

There are estimated to be 0.7 Million disabled children in the UK (figures attained from 2005-6)

According to the 2001 census the number of Pakistani children was 280,993 (2% of the children population)

A third of 0.7 Million is 230,333

You seriously suggesting that 80% (approx) of Pakistani children in the UK are disabled? I doubt that very much
 
Thats the point I am making - nobody really knows of these 'added risks', its only recently that its becoming an issue and the media are going with it - I doubt very much the aunties know about these media stories/reports

Having said that I think the added risk is exagerrated - from what I have read and I am sure there was a thread on this topic previously, the risk comes from generation upon generation taking part in cousin marriages

iirc the figures were something like as follows - 95 out of 100 children will be fine in none cousin marriages BUT in cousin marriages it is 92 out of 100, at worst

I remember reading of some studies that suggest the risk of birth abnormalities in cousin marriages are about 2- 3% higher. These, I think are average figures rather than 'at best' or 'at worst'. As the studies were conducted on western populations where there is no particular cultural preference for it, these results would be based on one- generational cousin marriage rather than successive cousin marriages over several generations- where the risks would be higher.
 
I remember reading of some studies that suggest the risk of birth abnormalities in cousin marriages are about 2- 3% higher. These, I think are average figures rather than 'at best' or 'at worst'. As the studies were conducted on western populations where there is no particular cultural preference for it, these results would be based on one- generational cousin marriage rather than successive cousin marriages over several generations- where the risks would be higher.

I assume they would have been conducted in the UK - you will find (this is an assumption on my part though) although the result is based on the existant generation, they are the offspring of a generation that partook in cousin marriages so it should factor in that over several generations of cousin marriages
 
It is estimated that 55 per cent of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins, and a third of children with recessive genetic disorders are born to that community.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...-discussed-for-fear-of-offending-Muslims.html

I believe that this is the statistic that Usman was referring to.

The problem is worst among children born in Britain's Pakistani community, where more than half of marriages are between first cousins, and children are 10 times more likely than the general population to suffer genetic disorders.

The medical risks of first cousin marriages include higher rates of infant mortality, birth defects, learning difficulties, blindness, hearing problems and metabolic disorders.


As adults, the children born from first cousin marriages are at increased risk of miscarriage or infertility. A third of children affected die before their fifth birthday.

It would be rather difficult to argue that there isn't an increased risk (a non-negligible one) of genetic disorders in children born to marriages involving first cousins, when study after study has shown that to be the case.
 
Judging by some of the 'Blinkered' posts on this thread it appears that certain posters may be the product of these types of marriages and are in denial about the seriousness of the issue.
All I can say to them is; your parents did not have the benefit of comprehensive research as we have before us today. Please, for the sake of your children, do not enter into these sorts of marriages. I've seen too many examples of suffering, broken hearted parents and grandparents and families to know that it is just not worth the risk.
 
Where did you ger these 'facts' from? Because as orthodox_spin has mentioned they dont add up

There are 10 million disabled people in the UK - your 'fact' suggests that 3 million of those disabled people are of Pakistani ethnicity BUT according to the 2001 census the number of Pakistani's stands at 750,000

If you add Bengalis to that the figure is just over 1 million - if you add Indians then its just over 2 million - so for your figures to be correct every Pakistani, Indian and Bengali has to be disabled in the UK BUT that still leaves a shortfall of 1 million ???????????????????

My wording wasnt correct, its not 30% of all disabled people are of pakistani origin, its 30% of all disabled births
 
Quite a few children in my extended family have/had disabilites, including my own 3 kids (one severe- aged 10, two- aged 4 and 2 with learning difficulties).

Nearly all of us in our family have had cousin marriages, including myself...im totally against it and would not encourage it...unfortunately there was no way out of it for me as there emotional blackmail from parents was involved. Me and the Mrs have suffered alot of stress.

Not only do cousin marriages cause genetic defects, but also infighting between families...I have experienced all this first hand.
 
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There's a user on this board who has kids with disabilities from marrying his cousin. He made a really in depth post some time back and it was sad to hear what he and his family were going through. I don't know if he still posts now.

Personally, the thought of marrying cousins makes me sick.


This is the post i believe

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?t=53388&page=2&pp=50&highlight=cousin


This thread is a serious one and is about giving our kids a better chance in life. Life is tough enough in the 21st century without making it more difficult for our kids in the future by making them live with physical or intellectual handicaps.

The people who can really understand what this thread is all about are those who have a handicapped child, a child who is in his/her present state because his parents were ignorant enough to get married even though they were first cousins. What makes me qualified to join this debate? My son has a variety of serious medical conditions all due to the fact that I made the biggest blunder of my life, by marrying someone who shares a common grandparent with me. At that time, I did not know better. Now I would not do it if I had a chance to do it again for all the money in the world.

You might say that his condition could be a matter of random chance and could happen to anybody. I have consulted with the best doctors in North America and the conclusion is that my son's conditon is 100% due his parents being related.

You cannot fully understand the pain and the hard life my son has gone through so far. The agony, the desperation, the tears, the sleepless nights and the frustration that myself and especially his mother have had to endure cannot be accurately described in words. I always thought that I was tough, but it breaks my heart to see my son suffer. His condition causes a severe strain on our financial resources. Since he was born, my estimate is that I must have spent $500,000 on his medical treatments which has forced us into debt. My career has suffered enormously because I always have to take time off from work to attend to his treatments. His little sister and brother also suffer, by watching their big brother in his present state. They are young. Try explaining to them why their parents cannot give them all the attention they deserve because the parents have to focus on bhai (brother) or why they cannot acquire all the things that children want because the majority of the family's budget is spent on their big brother. They cannot comprehend why their brother acts in certain strange ways, why he cannot properly communicate with them, why he is scary at times.

It is easy for you and me to learn something new. When I show a new thing to my 2 younger kids, they can pick it up after a couple of times of instruction. With my elder son, it takes literally 2,000 times and still he cannot master simple things like closing a button or tying his shoes or playing catch. His hand-eye coordination is lacking, he is hardly verbal, little things can throw him off. People do not know how to react in front of him and he does not know how to interact with people. His diet is so strict that certain types of food could cause cataracts and further brain damage. He cannot control his behaviour so our social life is oftentimes restricted. One day my wife and I will die, who will look after him? Is it fair to saddle his sister and brother with the added responsibility of caring for him for the rest of his life?

If I can convince one person not to marry their first cousin, I feel that I would have improved this world. I would have saved the parents from tremendous agony and despair and their future child from a lifetime of suffering. I was stupid and made a huge mistake as I was naive and did not know better. Please do not make the same mistake that I did.
 
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Quite a few children in my extended family have/had disabilites, including my own 3 kids (one severe- aged 10, two- aged 4 and 2 with learning difficulties).

Nearly all of us in our family have had cousin marriages, including myself...im totally against it and would not encourage it...unfortunately there was no way out of it for me as there emotional blackmail from parents was involved. Me and the Mrs have suffered alot of stress.

Not only do cousin marriages cause genetic defects, but also infighting between families...I have experienced all this first hand.

:( Typical of Pakistani parents emotional blackmail to ruin everything.
 
1. I'm not saying cousin marriages are forbidden, but just that by the previous poster's logic, they would be. It is a very valid point that there is a difference between what is permissible and what is encouraged. This is permissible in Islam.

Exactly, it is permissbile in Islam. If God allows it then all you can do is tell Muslims that is it not encouraged nothing more.

I don't understand why people continually bring religion into this. It is a cultural thing and has nothing to do with Islam. Asking someone to change medically damaging cultural traditions has got absolutely nothing to do with Islam. So please, stop all this 'oh this is another attack on Muslims' nonsense.

You don't know the history of channel 4, this programme was just an extention of their propaganda.

2. You are DELUDED. The science is as conclusive as the science about the damage of smoking to your lungs or alcohol to your liver.

There have been over 70 scientific studies on first cousin marriages. 100% of the studies have concluded that cousin marriages increase the risk of children being born with serious disabilities.

Since you clearly haven't read my earlier post, I shall repeat what I said. Pakistanis make around 1.5% of the British population, yet 33.3% of all new cases of child disabilities are Pakistani children.

When two parents have the defective gene, something very likely when you have the same grandparents, there is one in four chance that every child you have will be seriously disabled.

In Bradford and Birmingham, where the Pakistani communities are based, the number of cases of child disability is many, many times the levels of other areas in the country.

Wake up and face the truth or continue to be oblivious and allow unnecessary child suffering.

The reason why Pakistani's in Britain have a higher rate is due to generations of close family marriages. This would happen in any society.

Instead of me waking up, you should provide some evidence. The risk is of first time cousin marriage is very small, a couple of percent. The same amount as a woman over 40 years of age have children.

So by your logic, women who are over 40 years of age should not have children because you don't want to allow unnecessary child suffering?

You can contact the National Society of Genetic Counselors for proof.
 
i would change you sig to Lahore tay Karachi ki choroo, Gujarkhan ni boloo.
 
I met one of the people in the documentary a couple of minutes ago (the guy with the glasses who comes in at 13 minutes) and this is approximately what he said: " [The doc.] was on the supposed consequences of first cousin marriages." A guy asked whether he was married to a first cousin and he said "Sort of.. No consequences here.. If it was actually a problem then why isnt anyone doing anything about it? There are no awareness programs or campaigns or anything like that.. Its just the media and whatever brings in the audience"

I didnt say anything but had quiet, uncomfortable giggles in front of him because he was taking the order for my biriyani which I'm pleased to tell tastes absolutely brilliant. Unfortunately with the generation of 40-50 year olds in the UK, denial seems to be the order of the day and so does wilful ignorance and this "us against the world" mentality.
 
one of the saddest parts of the whole dcumentary were the comments made by the bradford mother of the 3 extremely disabled children who blamed poor medical care of her children at birth for their disabilities...
 
marrying your cousin is just weird now in todays times.aside from the disability factors, who in their right mind in the 21st century would marry their cousin? WHY? Lol.
 
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marrying your cousin is just weird now in todays times.aside from the disability factors, who in their right mind in the 21st century would marry their cousin? WHY? Lol.

Different people have different opinions. 21st century has nothing to do with it. Regarding the disabilities factor, there can be this element risk even in non-cousin marriages. I am not favoring any side because in Islam, cousin marriages are allowed which closes the debate once in for all.

Among the most prominent evidence of this fact is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) married his daughter Fatima to Ali (may Allah be pleased with them) and he is the son of her father's uncle, as well as the marriage of the Prophet himself to Zainab bint Jahsh (may Allah be please with her) and she is his aunt's daughter (i.e. his cousin); and there are many other such examples.
http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/105/cousin
 
Quite a few children in my extended family have/had disabilites, including my own 3 kids (one severe- aged 10, two- aged 4 and 2 with learning difficulties).

Nearly all of us in our family have had cousin marriages, including myself...im totally against it and would not encourage it...unfortunately there was no way out of it for me as there emotional blackmail from parents was involved. Me and the Mrs have suffered alot of stress.

Not only do cousin marriages cause genetic defects, but also infighting between families...I have experienced all this first hand.


some excellent points...particulary the point about the emotional blackmail and family infighting as a result of cousin marriages

without wishing to pry has it been confirmed to you that the condition of your children is as direct consequence of cousin marraige?
 
Quite a few children in my extended family have/had disabilites, including my own 3 kids (one severe- aged 10, two- aged 4 and 2 with learning difficulties).

Nearly all of us in our family have had cousin marriages, including myself...im totally against it and would not encourage it...unfortunately there was no way out of it for me as there emotional blackmail from parents was involved. Me and the Mrs have suffered alot of stress.

Not only do cousin marriages cause genetic defects, but also infighting between families...I have experienced all this first hand.

I think this should end any 'debate' on this issue..
 
For all those saying Islam allows cousin marriages:

Does Islam allow it? Yes.
Does Islam prevent you from using common sense and logic? No.
Are cousin marriages worth the risk? No.
Would any educated person encourage this? No.

And as the above poster stated, thread/
 
For all those saying Islam allows cousin marriages:

Does Islam allow it? Yes.
Does Islam prevent you from using common sense and logic? No.
Are cousin marriages worth the risk? No.
Would any educated person encourage this? No.

And as the above poster stated, thread/

Women over 40 have the same risk, so you would advise women once they reach the age of 40 to use their common sense and not have any kids?
 

So all the millions of women who have had perfectly healthy kids after the age of 40, shouldn't have done it because of the small percentange of risk? :14::14:

Now what you need to do is write to channel 4 ask them to investigate and see if the majority of those women are Muslim, Pakistani or from another background.
 
My wording wasnt correct, its not 30% of all disabled people are of pakistani origin, its 30% of all disabled births

See post 81 - the figures still dont quite add up

I think I need to send CH4 and e-mail asking from which research they got this figure from?
 
Had a brief look and all I could find were some figures compiled by the NSPCC

There are estimated to be 0.7 Million disabled children in the UK (figures attained from 2005-6)

According to the 2001 census the number of Pakistani children was 280,993 (2% of the children population)

A third of 0.7 Million is 230,333

You seriously suggesting that 80% (approx) of Pakistani children in the UK are disabled? I doubt that very much

Ok, you've got this very wrong. Firstly, your statistics are out of date. Secondly, the statistic only refers to children with rare genetic diseases, not all disabled children. Here is a quote directly from the programme.

Channel 4 Dispatches: When Cousins Marry said:
"A major report published in 2008 shows that one third of all children suffering from rare genetic diseases are British Pakistanis, yet they only make up 1.5% of the total population".

"More than 70 published British Scientific studies have shown that cousin marriages lead to an increased chance of having a child born with a rare genetic disorder. A significant number of these children will have serious kidney or liver problems."
 
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Exactly, it is permissbile in Islam. If God allows it then all you can do is tell Muslims that is it not encouraged nothing more.



You don't know the history of channel 4, this programme was just an extention of their propaganda.



The reason why Pakistani's in Britain have a higher rate is due to generations of close family marriages. This would happen in any society.

Instead of me waking up, you should provide some evidence. The risk is of first time cousin marriage is very small, a couple of percent. The same amount as a woman over 40 years of age have children.

So by your logic, women who are over 40 years of age should not have children because you don't want to allow unnecessary child suffering?

You can contact the National Society of Genetic Counselors for proof.

Firstly, I do know of the 'history' of channel 4. The way they exposed Regents Park Mosque twice brought shame on Muslims living in the UK, who regard this particular mosque as one of the main ones in the UK. As I've said before, for the sake of everyone’s good, we need to stop this stupid victim mentality and look at a medical issue as nothing more than a medical issue. Some have made it into a habit to label everything under the sun as an attack on Muslims and 'propaganda'. If there is a genuine issue in our communities, then let’s tackle it, rather than playing the race card to scare away politicians and medics.

Secondly, I think you need to do your research. The risk of first cousin marriages leading to children born with genetic disorders is not a couple of per cent as you seem to make up out of thin air, it is between 4-10%, as again pointed out by the C4 programme.
 
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Nearly all of us in our family have had cousin marriages, including myself...im totally against it and would not encourage it...unfortunately there was no way out of it for me as there emotional blackmail from parents was involved. Me and the Mrs have suffered alot of stress.

I know where your're coming from bro. The village where I come from is full of people married to cousins and who encourage such relations, and my father just wouldn't have it any other way as a result of such peer pressure (barring a few exceptions). Some of my brothers/sisters tried to get out of marrying a cousin, but in the end the exerted pressure from my parents paid off. I was the last to get married in my family, and I was just resigned to this fate.

My grandparents were not first cousins as far as I'm aware, so hopefully I'm OK (Insha-Allah). We did not know our cousins at all as they lived in Pakistan, but looking at how my nieces and nephews living in the UK are growing up as brothers and sisters, the thought of them getting married makes me sick!

I think, given the risks we know of now, cousin marriages are a one time only affair.

UPDATE: Crap, my grandparents were cousins! I think a genetic test wouldn't be the worst idea in the world. Ya Allah Madad.
 
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but looking at how my nieces and nephews living in the UK are growing up as brothers and sisters, the thought of them getting married makes me sick!

First parents force them to grow up like brothers and sisters and later on they will force them to marry. :yk
 
Sir John runs with the foxes and hunts with the hounds
 
morally, if cousins werent that close (like bro and sis) before marriage then i feel there isnt much harm (morally ... yh but medically its quite dangerous)
 
Firstly, I do know of the 'history' of channel 4. The way they exposed Regents Park Mosque twice brought shame on Muslims living in the UK, who regard this particular mosque as one of the main ones in the UK. As I've said before, for the sake of everyone’s good, we need to stop this stupid victim mentality and look at a medical issue as nothing more than a medical issue. Some have made it into a habit to label everything under the sun as an attack on Muslims and 'propaganda'. If there is a genuine issue in our communities, then let’s tackle it, rather than playing the race card to scare away politicians and medics.

Exposed? It was a cut and paste job, they picked and chose certain lines from the scholors and edited to their agenda.

Secondly, I think you need to do your research. The risk of first cousin marriages leading to children born with genetic disorders is not a couple of per cent as you seem to make up out of thin air, it is between 4-10%, as again pointed out by the C4 programme.

I have done and the it has a bit more credibility than Channel 4.

The task force was brought together by the National Society of Genetic Counselors. It considered recommendations for various unions of consanguineous (literally, blood-sharing) couples related as second cousins or more closely.

The paper's senior author is Dr. Arno Motulsky, professor emeritus of medicine and genome sciences at the UW and a pioneer in medical genetics studies.

Relatively few studies have documented actual risks to the offspring of consanguineous unions, the authors note, and many of the studies that have been done are flawed in terms of their relevance for the general population. The task force reviewed all studies published in English in the medical literature, and some additional materials.

What the authors were looking for is the additional risk of significant birth defects (mental retardation or genetic disorders) -- or risk that is more than that faced by the general population of couples. For example, for couples, if the base (general population) risk of genetic conditions is 5 percent, it's the additional risk that is important for consanguineous couples to know.

Although they emphasize that it's not possible to come up with one number for all populations of consanguineous couples, the authors estimate the additional risk to range from 1.7 to 2.8 percent for first cousin unions. From her experience in counseling, Bennett believes these numbers are far lower than most people's perception of the risk.

http://www.washington.edu/newsroom/news/2002archive/04-02archive/k040302a.html
 
Quite comprehensive refutation of a statistic which was quoted at "4-10%" with a statistic which quotes 6.7-7.8%. I have a strong feeling that any lack of comprehension in this thread is ironic.

Please go to your local literature establishment and request the following at reception: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Genetics-Dummies-Tara-Rodden-Robinson/dp/0764595547

Genetics, as a code, is very simple. However the physical expression of the code is deeply complex.
 
For all those saying Islam allows cousin marriages:

Does Islam allow it? Yes.
Does Islam prevent you from using common sense and logic? No.
Are cousin marriages worth the risk? No.
Would any educated person encourage this? No.

And as the above poster stated, thread/


:14::14::14:

The government of Pakistan needs to take up this message.

Unfortunately people are too afraid of the wrath of the fundoo establishment to do something.
 
For the record very few in my incredibly large extended family, have married "cousins"

Oxy and Co. in this thread have highlighted that generally Pakistanis (and indeed Muslims in general + Non-Muslim South Asians!) marry with cousins without any detrimental genetic disorders.

Of course their is a risk of disability in offspring when marrying cousins.

But theres a risk of disability in offspring in all types of child birth!

The question that should be posed is how much do these cousin marriages increase the likelihood of severe disablity.

The Science research cited by oxy and others show that yes their is an increased chance, but statistically it is no where near the sensationalism that is attributed to this type of marriage.

Yet bear in mind logic and common sense:

If your parents were cousins its probably best not to marry your cousin - i.e. Check your genetic lineage!!!

If your parents and those of the cousin you wish to marry were not of the same genetic lineage then you are highly unlikely to have severely disabled children as a consequence of a "cousin" marriage.

So feasibly a "mixed race" child marrying his mixed race cousin has little to worry about other than the gamble that is marriage itself.

In regards to the south Asian dispora:

You have to realise that the "Caste" system has created amongst non-muslims and muslims alike equal problems; even if you don't marry your cousin, you should consider marrying outside your "caste" if your family lineage has many generations of caste based marriage.

The effectiveness of the caste system too in south asia has led to de facto genetic racial differences, so technically when children from separate well entrenched castes marry, you can accurately say that the children will be "mixed race" i/e/ significantly varied in their genetic make-up -

This is very beneficial!


So are all cousin marriages detrimental? No.


P.S - Any person giving our community grief, just mention the good ol' British Monarchy! ;)
 
Oxy and Co. in this thread have highlighted that generally Pakistanis (and indeed Muslims in general + Non-Muslim South Asians!) marry with cousins without any detrimental genetic disorders.

I havent posted in this thread....:13:
 
A lot of posters in this thread are saying that they know children from cousin marriages who are healthy. How can you say with absolute certainty that they are healthy? Maybe the deformity or abnormality has not manifested itself yet. Maybe the child appears to be healthy but if you really dig deep, there might be various medical and health issues like propensity to fall sick, bad eyesight, attention deficit disorder and other learning difficulties, physically not as attractive (ever seen kids from mixed race marriages? They are usually very beautiful and intelligent), not as athletic on the sports field as other kids, illogical thinking and anger issues, etc. Perhaps the child has achieved only 75% of his ability and potential due to the fact that he/she has received certain negative genes from the common grandparent. How many kids from countries where excessive cousin marriages take place (mostly Islamic) go on to win an Olympic medal or a Nobel prize?

Sure Islam does not forbid cousin marriages. Islam also does not forbid driving at 200 kph while texting at the same time or crossing a busy road on foot with eyes closed. It does not mean that anyone should indulge in any of these harmful practices. Allah has given us common sense and we should use it.

Hi All,

I think this is a serious topic and should be considered more.

Over the years I have come to a similar conclusion as to the above. The problem is that it is all circumstancial / anecdotal evidence and needs more research.

In particular whether children born more inter marraiges are not as smart as those born outside.

In my experience, just looking at the British Pakistani community for example , our children perform the worst at shool - in terms of socio economic groups its in line with black males and is the lowest of the low.

However, sri lankan and Indian children (who i belive dont marry cousins as fequently) are amongst the highest of the high.

Is this a co-incidence or could it be related?

If we look at the acts of some of the Pakistani and British Pakistani leadership compared to other countries - could it be explained by the same reason?

From my perspective the answer is "I dont know" but it is too much of a co-incidence for us not to consider it properly. I would go so far as to say that it should be PRIORITY number 1. Because if it is true - it doesnt matter what we try and do, if we are not smart enough we wont be able to.
 
I also think most people don't have a say in they who marry

I know right now my parents are trying to pressure me into marrying my I believe is my second cousin (my dads sisters daughter's daughter)...they say our family marry in the family and if I don't marry its gonna look bad cuz they had agreed to this years ago

From what I can gather no child in our family history has had any effects of marrying cousins but that don't mean it won't or can't happen
 
some excellent points...particulary the point about the emotional blackmail and family infighting as a result of cousin marriages

without wishing to pry has it been confirmed to you that the condition of your children is as direct consequence of cousin marraige?

..according to genetic tests, two of the same genes have combined (one from me and one from the mrs)...hence the disability. They made it clear that 1 in 3 of my children will be disabled.

Every individual needs two different sets of genes...so when two of the same set are combined, the results can be devastating...this is how it has been explained to us.
 
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What people are your first cousins and who are the second ones can somebody tell me
 
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Hi All,

I think this is a serious topic and should be considered more.

Over the years I have come to a similar conclusion as to the above. The problem is that it is all circumstancial / anecdotal evidence and needs more research.

In particular whether children born more inter marraiges are not as smart as those born outside.

In my experience, just looking at the British Pakistani community for example , our children perform the worst at shool - in terms of socio economic groups its in line with black males and is the lowest of the low.

However, sri lankan and Indian children (who i belive dont marry cousins as fequently) are amongst the highest of the high.

Is this a co-incidence or could it be related?

If we look at the acts of some of the Pakistani and British Pakistani leadership compared to other countries - could it be explained by the same reason?

From my perspective the answer is "I dont know" but it is too much of a co-incidence for us not to consider it properly. I would go so far as to say that it should be PRIORITY number 1. Because if it is true - it doesnt matter what we try and do, if we are not smart enough we wont be able to.


I think a lot of it also has to do with from where we get married, thats a big factor how our kids education goes

Lot of people marry from back home, at least one parent is not very educated, cant speak english and will not contribute much to the kids homeworks education etc .
 
I think a lot of it also has to do with from where we get married, thats a big factor how our kids education goes

Lot of people marry from back home, at least one parent is not very educated, cant speak english and will not contribute much to the kids homeworks education etc .

Agreed - thats probably has something to do with it.

I think you can make that argument in respect of education - but inherent smartness shouldnt be affected by that.

Further - the same can be said of other Asians who also get married from back home.

Amongst the Arabic population there is a movement away from cousin marriages for precisely this reason. Certainly amongst the elite.
 
Mistaken Identity

Oxy - Apologies - I shouuld have cited Geordie Ahmed.
 
If people knew the history of Channel 4, you would know they enjoy making programmes about Muslims and Pakistani's in a negative way.

The evidence is not conclusive in first time cousin marriages, it's only in cousin marriages through generations.

In Islam it's encouraged to marry away from your family, yet in Europe incest is legal.

Pakistani's marry in their family because they know their daughters will not be messed about with but secularists have dozens of partners which lead to all sorts of disases which lead to many more problems.

Islam is always superiour to their ideoligy, this is why they try their very best to discredit it any which way they can.

nailed it !!!!
 
Islam is always superiour to their ideoligy

Err, Lets not try to associate cultural practices with separate points about religious monogamous bonds shall we?
 
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect...-inbreeding-taking-its-toll-at+lahore-zoo-890

Tigers’ inbreeding taking its toll at Lahore Zoo

LAHORE: The chronic issue of inbreeding the Punjab Wildlife is confronted with for several years took the life of a four-and-a-half-month white tiger cub (Zona) on Sunday night at the Lahore zoo, officials told Dawn.

In the past too, the inbreeding resulted in the deaths of several tigers at the zoo and other wildlife parks.

Officials say the present zoo administration, however, has taken some practical steps to tackle the issue of inbreeding. It has also consulted national and international wildlife experts.

On the direction of the Punjab Wildlife Department director-general, a three-member committee has been constituted to probe into facts behind the death of Zona.

The committee is consisted of Wildlife director Abdul Qadeer Mahal, Biodiversity World Wide Fund for Nature director Uzma Khan and Zoo Management Committee member Dr Riffat Suleman Butt.

The committee will submit its report within three days while it will hold its meeting on Sept 29.

White tiger cub (Zona) was suffering from congenital deformities like brittle bones (suspected rickets). X-Rays show the fracturing of long bone of distal condyles.

Zoo veterinarians, who attended the postmortem at the University of Veterinary and Animal Sciences, Lahore, reported that many bones fractured previously got healed but the process of fracture was continuous due to weak bone.

A zoo high official told Dawn that all possible measures were adopted to save the animal and national and international experts were consulted, but the cub could not survive.

Giving the background of cub’s death, the official said that brown Bengal tigress (Rozi) had given birth to four cubs in April, 2010. The white Bengal tiger (Sam) was the father of these cubs who is related to the same bloodline of brown Bengal tigress (Rozi).

Two were stillbirths and one was born weak who died the next day. Since the tigress was unable to feed her cub, Zona was provided feeding through formula milk (Esbilac & KMR) for three months.

The cub started meat consumption and gradually reduced the milk intake. The body weight and other activities were normal, but the cub suddenly developed paraplegia of hind limbs on Aug 23. The recessive gene present in the white tigers causes paraplegia and immune deficiency. The inbreeding makes survival of white tigers difficult.

Quoting certain examples, the official said that a brown Bengal tigress had given birth to four cubs in Lahore Zoo Safari in April 2009. The father of these cubs was brown Bengal tiger and was shifted from the Bahawalpur Zoo. He was also of the same bloodline of the tigress.

These cubs were born normal and healthy. The cubs survived until one cub suffered from paraplegia of hind quarters at the age of three-and-a-half-months. The other cub developed deformity in fore limbs. All the four cubs died one after the other.

In 2008, the same tigress crossed again with another brown male tiger of the same bloodline and gave birth to five deformed cubs. Two cubs were born alive and three were born deformed without skull bones. The live cubs died on the same day.

He said a white Bengal male tiger was born at the Lahore Zoo in 2004. He had survived trypanosomiasis and had been weak since birth. The male was first time crossed with a brown tigress who was brought in an exchange program in 2009. The tigress gave one stillbirth and the other two cubs were not expelled out causing toxemia. The white male tiger (Sam) mated brown tigress (Rozi), resulting again in weak offspring this year.

The official said that according to the track record of bloodline of tigers at the Lahore Zoo, three tigers were imported in 1971 and 1975 and now they all have died. Only one female (Mary), 14 years of age, could survive.

In 1982 and 1984, two pairs were imported and thus the total five tigers remained in Lahore Zoo. Only a few cubs from the two pairs survived.

In 1992, white Bengal tigress (Bush) was brought from Karachi. The cubs from these pairs were shifted to other parks and zoos. In 1997, trypanosomiasis broke out and tigers started vanishing from the Lahore Zoo.

The official said the Lahore Zoo had left with only one white male tiger (Sam) and one Brown tigress (Rozi). The two white tigresses (Jati and Mohni) were imported to solve the inbreeding issue. But the genetics of these animals is still unknown.

The wildlife experts said the inbreeding issue had become a grave concern for the Wildlife Department.

All tigers at zoos and parks in Punjab should be checked for strong genetics and be paired to get strong cubs. All white tigers are carrying recessive genes and should be paired with brown tigresses after getting gene sequencing.

The experts were of the opinion that Zona was suffering from the same congenital problem as the blood profile and fecal reports did not show any abnormality.

The case has been discussed with senior doctors and it is treated symptomatically and is under close observation.

Several national and international experts consulted during the treatment of the cub by zoo vets say that proper breeding plan with one record unit should be made for whole of Punjab and paved floor be given to animals in the display area. Artificial insemination could also solve the problem of inbreeding issue in tigers, they said.

Former Lahore Zoo veterinarian Dr Riffat Suleman Butt, Dr I.H Kathio (USA) and San Diego Zoo curator Gary were also consulted for the cub’s treatment.

Lahore Zoo Director Iqbal Khalid said the introduction of new blood in the existing stock of tigers was badly needed to prevent further misfortune of loss of this feline species through inbreeding.
 
Sadly, my 9yr old nephew has fallen seriously ill, he is now in intensive care. One of the first questions the doctors asked my sister and her husband is if they are related (which they are)...the doctor proceeded in explaining how cousin marriages affect children.

My nephew has learning/speech difficulties..I already mentioned before I have a severely disabled son and two more with learning difficulties.
Both me and my sister had arranged marriages with my uncles daughter/sister...makes you think.
 
Sadly, my 9yr old nephew has fallen seriously ill, he is now in intensive care. One of the first questions the doctors asked my sister and her husband is if they are related (which they are)...the doctor proceeded in explaining how cousin marriages affect children.

My nephew has learning/speech difficulties..I already mentioned before I have a severely disabled son and two more with learning difficulties.
Both me and my sister had arranged marriages with my uncles daughter/sister...makes you think.

I am really sorry to hear that. It must be a really difficult time for you. I hope that his condition improves. I will do dua.

In my mind this issue is one of the most important issues facing our community (but being ignored) and we should not hide away from discussing it.

There are many obvious problems with cousin marriages, but there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that children may be affected mentally also. The problem is that it is very difficult to tie down whether it is definitely cousin marriages that causes it.

What is a fact is that there must be many genetic issues being caused by cousin marriages.

Let us discuss it and fix the problem (if there is one) and ignore what the western media has to say about it.

If we can resolve our issues ourselves - they will find something else to talk about.
 
Sadly, my 9yr old nephew has fallen seriously ill, he is now in intensive care. One of the first questions the doctors asked my sister and her husband is if they are related (which they are)...the doctor proceeded in explaining how cousin marriages affect children.

My nephew has learning/speech difficulties..I already mentioned before I have a severely disabled son and two more with learning difficulties.
Both me and my sister had arranged marriages with my uncles daughter/sister...makes you think.

Sorry to hear about that. Here's hoping for a quick recovery...
 
Judging by some of the 'Blinkered' posts on this thread it appears that certain posters may be the product of these types of marriages and are in denial about the seriousness of the issue.
All I can say to them is; your parents did not have the benefit of comprehensive research as we have before us today. Please, for the sake of your children, do not enter into these sorts of marriages. I've seen too many examples of suffering, broken hearted parents and grandparents and families to know that it is just not worth the risk.
You can see the by-products of this whole cousin-marriage(forced or otherwise) culture all over the UK. You have British Indians and Sri Lankans, a vast majority of them getting top class educations, working at the top of the ladder in every sector imaginable and on the other hand, you have the Bruvs(Brit Paks/Bangladeshis), standing on street corners with their little mickey mouse gangs, acting tough with their too-cool-for-school attitude having dropped out after the 9th grade(or whatever the system is in the UK). Just run some numbers and you'll see the massive difference between the Bruvs and the Brit Indians/Lankans in terms of education/professional standing and quite frankly, when you go to the UK from Pakistan and are judged on the same scale, you can't help but lower your head that extra 15 degrees because you know that the stigmas attached with you are justified. One interesting thing that I've noticed is that this phenomenon is limited primarily to the UK. If you look at American/Canadian/Middle Eastern Pakistanis and even the ones in Pakistan, they tend to be fairly progressive, focused on the right stuff(education, family values and all that jazz) and harbor significantly less extremist tendencies. I've had my theories regarding the core reasons for the existence of this phenomenon(one being that a vast majority immigrated from an area where this whole concept is part of the local culture) but nothing definitive. Also, this does not apply to all 2 million Bruvs(Brit Pak/Bangs) but a significant majority compared to other ethnic groups. Why is that so?
 
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..I have 3 kids with disabilities (I married my first cousin)...I may have posted that, can't remember though.

Thats quite a coincidence, because my aunty and uncle are first cousins, and they have three sons with the same disabilities (all three are deaf and mute), however, their daughter is perfectly normal.

I am not in favour of cousin marriages, because, quite similarly to super sixer, I've always seen my cousins as siblings. And I do believe that it can have quite an effect on genetics. My parents are not cousins, in fact, my father was the only one from his family to marry outside the family. And my parents have said that they will not force any of our cousins, or anyone for that matter, onto for marriage.
 
Many cousins get married to each other.

I know of many couples that have had healthy offspring and are living great lives.

Personally, I have no interest in such a marriage. My parents weren't cousins and I won't get married like that, either.

Cousins are unlikely to have inbred kids so to speak with problems, but cousins marrying cousins was normal 100 years ago, just plain strange now days. I suppose its for those that are brainwashed by there parents and lived a shelted life that a cousins is there only option. Ewwww its gross and ive been around this world for nearly half a century.
The royal families of England and europe used to do this a hundred + years ago, but its gross.

As has been said above, cousins have always been like siblings in my family. cringing at the thought of cousins marrying.
 
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i was forced to marry my cousin a few years ago back in kabul, which obviously wasnt fun. marriage was going ok for awhile but now its running into problems, im so stressed out to say the least
 
People who are accusing others of ignoring scientific data I believe, don't understand the data itself or the implications of their position.

Actual risk
Let's ignore what is happening in UK for a minute.

Consanguineous marriages have been shown to increase birth defects by 1.5% to 3%. Most estimates put birth defects at 5% to 8% of all births.

If we take the worst case scenario then that gives us 95% defects for regular marriages and 92% defects for consanguineous marriages. if not then obviously not.

Either both the figures are alarming and require attention or neither is.

Recessive alleles
It has already been discussed how recessive alleles work. A lot of diseases are caused by an individual inherriting two recessive alleles. Systic fibrosis, Tay-Sachs...etc.

If a family has this disease present in their gene pool then there is an increased risk of births with these defects.

The reason why we have alarming birth defects in the Pakistani population in the UK is because most of the Pakistanis come from the same area in Pakistan and their gene pool carries these diseases. Repeated marriages within the community cause birth defects.

Other things to consider
Jews from Europe are more likely to have Tay-Sachs.
Afro-Americans more likely to have Cystic fibrosis, Sickle cell Anaemia.
Thalasemia - greeks and italians.
Parkinsons - Amish...etc

What is the answer?
The answer is clearly not to disallow marriages between cousins as the difference in birth defects is not big enough to justify this. Doing so would also logically require that Jews from europe, Afro-Americans and the Amish shoud not be allowed to marry within their communities.

The answer is that ALL MARRIAGES and births should be planned after a genetic test is carried out.
 
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The answer is that ALL MARRIAGES and births should be planned after a genetic test is carried out.


Neither do we have tests for all genetic defects nor do we know the full extent of the harm of consanguineous marriages.

It isn't just straight forward recessive/dominant alleles etc .. genetics is far more complex than that.

I agree that banning these marriages is wrong but it is the responsibility of the government to at least educate people on this issue instead of pretending it doesn't exist.
 
Kashif77 said:
Neither do we have tests for all genetic defects nor do we know the full extent of the harm of consanguineous marriages.
The main defects thalasemia, cytic fibrosis, sickle cell...etc all have tests. This will reduce the birth defects substantially. You can do the tests based on which demographic an individual was born in to reduce the number of tests.

Or even if an exhaustive list of tests needs to be carried out I am sure it is cheaper then having upto 8% of your population suffering from genetic disorders.
 
The main defects thalasemia, cytic fibrosis, sickle cell...etc all have tests. This will reduce the birth defects substantially.

That does work somewhat for the general population but not for populations who have been practicing consanguineous marriages for generations.

Take a look at some of the cases described in this thread .. modern medicine has not even described them let alone do we have some sort of test to detect them.

My mother's three brothers all married their first cousins who were also sisters. All three of these couples failed to produce a single live birth. What good would a Sickle Cell or Thalasemmia test done them ?

We and other species from the Animal and Plant Kingdoms all the way down to single celled organisms have been driven by evolution to seek diversity in our gene pools for a multitude of reasons.

No simple test can reverse the immense harm done by ignoring this principle.
 
I really don't see why its worth the risk

There are plenty of other women outside the family, and decent ones at that too I'm sure.

Better be safe than sorry.
 
Im happy to say that my nephew is out of intensive and is making a recovery. He was diagnosed with Septicemia (blood poisoning)..individuals with weak immune systems are usually vulnerable to this.

The doctors at one point told us he will not make it. However, he fought hard. His kidneys have stopped functioning properly..this is still a great concern at the moment.
 
Im happy to say that my nephew is out of intensive and is making a recovery. He was diagnosed with Septicemia (blood poisoning)..individuals with weak immune systems are usually vulnerable to this.

The doctors at one point told us he will not make it. However, he fought hard. His kidneys have stopped functioning properly..this is still a great concern at the moment.

Good to hear.

If his blood pressure has stabilized his kidneys will resume normal function in a few days.
 
Im happy to say that my nephew is out of intensive and is making a recovery. He was diagnosed with Septicemia (blood poisoning)..individuals with weak immune systems are usually vulnerable to this.

The doctors at one point told us he will not make it. However, he fought hard. His kidneys have stopped functioning properly..this is still a great concern at the moment.

That is very good news. Inshallah he will make a full recovery.
 
cousin marriages is not an issue in pakistan, and also Islam does not prohibited it.there may be some medical complications (to the offspring) when first cousins marry, but then it is in Allah's hands. all sickness and disease comes from him. there are people that i know are quite healthy despite their parents being first cousins.

fine. so if islam doesnt prohibit then isnt it up to us to decide what we should do in that matter? science say it might be a bad thing to do cousin marriages so why not follow that as there is no contradiction with islam in this matter??
 
Its not the end of the world if you are married to your cousin.... remember that there are plenty living happy lives....

BUT in order for the long term benefit of our society the practice needs to be limited.

I think this thread should be a sticky!
 
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