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Dale Steyn among the top three pacers of all time, says Waqar Younis

Steyn still has a few years of cricket left in him, a lot of big name bowlers fell away in their last few years of intnl cricket The same may or may not be teh case with steyn Lets wait and see how he finishes his intnl career before we start to judge him with the greats of the game
 
Mamoon_Ghaffar said:
Top 3 of all time is a massive overstatement in my opinion.

He's an ATG that is for sure but he will always be a level below of his compatriots who did really well in ODIs as well and could string more than three ODI on a trot without needing to rest.

For those who say ODI performances don't matter, well they do when you compare two players like for like. For that reason, at the moment, Wasim and Waqar rank way above Steyn.

He still has 5/6 years to make up for though. But he is definitely one of the best bowlers of all time based on ability alone.
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He will not be, bcoz he averages equal or better than the 90s fast bowlers, in an era where "pitches are flat, boundaries are short, and edges are thick". Btw could we have a smiley or sthing for favorite PP line in bolded? or may be i can use :inzi or :sehwag :P
 
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pungi said:
He will not be, bcoz he averages equal or better than the 90s fast bowlers, in an era where "pitches are flat, boundaries are short, and edges are thick". Btw could we have a smiley or sthing for favorite PP line in bolded? or may be i can use :inzi or :sehwag :P
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I presume you were being sarcastic. Anyhow yes I agree that notion is used to often as a shield but it is subjective.

There is no proof that Steyn would have had a better record if he would've have played in the 90's similarly, by that logic, one could also claim that Wasim and Waqar etc would have done a lot better too if they would have played today.

You can't really compare players of different eras. All you can do is to judge their respective records. Wasim and Waqar were beast in both formats. Steyn will never be remembered as an ODI great that is why overall those two rank higher.
 
Buffet said:
Nice effort but you have missed most obvious thing people will look. That would be average in matches won. IK & Hadlee will then come ahead of Steyn. Steyn is still on top few. Anyway, I think this match winner stuff is lot more dependent on other factors which is beyond the control of bowler. Bowlers individual performance should be looked in isolation. It's not as if bowlers forgets to bowl in lost matches.

That was my logic in seeing how consistently a bowler is having an average of less than 25 in series which is considered ATG cut off by most. You are right, it might not have 100% match winning performances but this will include all good/great performances which reflects specific bowler's performance without depending on match result.

I will think that a main bowler producing less than 25 average in series has to take lot of wickets. Then if his team sucks and can't win matches , none of his effort will get included in this match winning effort. But in most probability his performance was lot better than some one averaging 30 in series & his team winning it. Not always but that will be the case most of the time. Main bowers don't take few wickets here and there. They bowl lot of overs. Kallis can have below 25 average in series without taking lot of wickets but Steyn actually has to take lot of cheap wickets to average below 25 in series.

As far as match winning contributions goes, I don't need any stats. Steyn is right up there with the best.
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how is Imran Khan a better match winner than Steyn? When we include top order wickets he does not even feature on the top 10 list.
In 26 wins he only has 125 wickets at an average of 16.08 and strike rate of 43.1. He averages 5.96 wickets in wins to Steyns 6.69.
There is no better match winner than Steyn
 
soso_killer said:
how is Imran Khan a better match winner than Steyn? When we include top order wickets he does not even feature on the top 10 list.
In 26 wins he only has 125 wickets at an average of 16.08 and strike rate of 43.1. He averages 5.96 wickets in wins to Steyns 6.69.
There is no better match winner than Steyn
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Waiting for the day he wins a match for SA in the World Cup and if ODI cricket doesn't matter to you, tell that to greats like Mcgrath, Warne and Wasim.

If Steyn doesn't take ODIs seriously there is a serious lack of ambition and drive there. He'd be classified as a test great only.
 
Imran and Waqar played in eras of bowling friendly pitches.

Steyn is playing in an era of flat pitches.

There isn't any competition if you take this into consideration.
 
KPfan said:
Imran and Waqar played in eras of bowling friendly pitches.

Steyn is playing in an era of flat pitches.

There isn't any competition if you take this into consideration.
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Again, subjective opinion.

Sub continent wickets have always been flat and they delivered on those wickets.

Besides, there is absolutely no evidence that Wasim and Waqar wouldn't have been as successful today as they were in the 90's.
 
He is the best today, but def. not "of all time". Waqar, Wasim and the West Indian greats were several notches above him.
 
This is an over exaggeration by Waqar

As good a bowler as Steyn is he's not even South Africa's best fast bowler. That honour belongs to Allan Donald imo. Many of my South African friends share that opinion

Comparing him (in his prime) with other bowlers at the peaks of their careers (the ones that I have seen) I would rate (in no particular order), Marshall, Hadlee, Imran, Lillee, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Ambrose, Wasim, Waqar and McGrath (I know he was not express pace) better than Steyn
 
Mamoon_Ghaffar said:
Waiting for the day he wins a match for SA in the World Cup and if ODI cricket doesn't matter to you, tell that to greats like Mcgrath, Warne and Wasim.

If Steyn doesn't take ODIs seriously there is a serious lack of ambition and drive there. He'd be classified as a test great only.
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not Dale's fault really he bowled well in the World Cup. If our batsmen cant chase 220 odd then thats their problem. You cant expect the guy to bowl teams out for 160 all the time
 
AZulfi said:
This is an over exaggeration by Waqar

As good a bowler as Steyn is he's not even South Africa's best fast bowler. That honour belongs to Allan Donald imo. Many of my South African friends share that opinion

Comparing him (in his prime) with other bowlers at the peaks of their careers (the ones that I have seen) I would rate (in no particular order), Marshall, Hadlee, Imran, Lillee, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Ambrose, Wasim, Waqar and McGrath (I know he was not express pace) better than Steyn
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Dale Steyn reached Donald's record with 7 games to spare. He reached 300 wickets 4 balls late than Waqar. The next best is Donald himself a thousand balls later, the next is not even close. So i have always been rather perplexed by the logic that certain players at their "peaks" were better than Steyn.
 
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Look at Steyn's ODI record as well. Most great bowlers equally excelled in both formats

Donald was a better bowler overall
 
Quite like the Pigeon and Marshall, Steyn's success is based on a very sustainable model. Bowling full at rapid pace and trying to swing it will always get batsmen out, no matter the era. Barring any drastic injuries, Steyn should end up with more than 500 wickets, maybe push 600.
 
Gunther said:
Quite like the Pigeon and Marshall, Steyn's success is based on a very sustainable model. Bowling full at rapid pace and trying to swing it will always get batsmen out, no matter the era. Barring any drastic injuries, Steyn should end up with more than 500 wickets, maybe push 600.
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McGrath was a very different type of bowler, relying more on line, length and subtle variations, much like Pollock. He wasn't very pacy, but produced the goods.
 
So a guy who is amongst the top 3 pacers of all time can't even buy a wicket in the IPL :))

Who cares if he has a wonderful economy rate? He is a strike bowler; his job is to take wickets not to contain runs.

He is tied on wickets with Ishant Sharma and Dinda while having bowled more overs :)) and has less wickets than Perera, Kallis, Faulkner, Vinay Kumar, Johnson and Bravo, just to name the seamers.

His strike rate is not even amongst the top 50 bowlers this season and he has the 34th best average.

I know his intolerant fans are gonna pop up and say that judging a test great on his IPL performance is beyond ridiculous because it is a nothing league, but on the other hand you are quick to downplay players who do well in IPL because it is standard is very low. Well if its standard is that low, why is Dale "better than Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Lillee bla bla" Steyn so ineffective that trundlers like Vinay Kumar are ahead of him?

So he's completely mediocre in ODIs and T20s but brilliant in tests. How does that make him the best in the world? It makes him a test specialist. Nothing more.

He is easily the worst best fast bowler ever if you know what I'm trying to say.

He is considered the best today but he pales in comparison to the best bowlers of the preceding generations.

The likes of Wasim, Waqar, Lillee, Donald, Pollock, Holding, Roberts, Mcgrath, Richard Hadlee, Ambrose were brilliant in both Tests and ODIs and hence they all rank above him.

One can only imagine how devastating Waqar, Wasim, Mcgrath etc would have been in the IPL.

Steyn the stand out pacer of this generation simply cannot get into an all time Test XI yet let alone an alll time XI based on both formats.

That really shows he stands out more because of the glaring lack of quality of bowlers elsewhere rather than him being that good.

Steyn is more comparable to Walsh, another bowler who did really well in tests but was mediocre in ODIs and that is a level below the greats I mentioned beforehand.

I know ODI cricket may not matter to you but tell that to legends of the game who bowled their hearts out in a "meaningless format which know one cares about and is not important".

Pretty sure they'd be shedding tears in regret now.
 
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Perhaps the legend Steyn should pick up some tips from Junaid on how to bowl in-swingers :kapil
 
What an embarrassment he is in ODIs :kapil

Why do South Africa even bother him?
 
Hard not to agree with Waqar..Steyn has it all..pace,swing,seam,deadly accuracy.

Some of the lists above baffle me..Imran better than Wasim?..Really?

Walsh better than Steyn?..Walsh didnt have half the arsenal this guy has.
 
TBH he is not the best in his own team when it's about ODI's for me Morne is a better ODI bowler
 
well not really, top 3 pacers IMO would be marshall, wasim and then waqar himself.
 
Waqar was a freak of its kind 35 5 wickets hauls in international cricket( odi + test) is just mind blowing no one come close to this feat and above that an exceptional county record.
 
On what basis is Waqar a better bowler than Steyn?

Wasim,Marshall,Hadlee,Imran but not Waqar by any strecth of imagination.
 
cricketjoshila said:
On what basis is Waqar a better bowler than Steyn?

Wasim,Marshall,Hadlee,Imran but not Waqar by any strecth of imagination.
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:))

Pre Injury Waqar was on a completely different level to Steyn, he bowled deliveries which Steyn can't even dream of.
 
I would rate Wasim higher than Waqar simply because he was more versatile..

Wasim was as mean as they can get ..ER of 3.89 runs per over compared to Waqar's 4.6..While WY's toe crusher was definitely deadlier than Wasim(but not by much),the latter was still the better bowler in the death overs..Wasim could play both roles depending on the situation,the Withholding role and the attacking role..Waqar on the other hand was all about ''attack''..His Strike rate reflects that

That said,Waqar at his prime was much faster than Wasim..Those 3 or 4 years before his Back broke,he was the most lethal bowler around.
 
Wasim is an automatic entry in the top 3 best fast bowlers ever IMO.

Brian Lara,Ricky Ponting 2 of the 3 best batsmen in the world in his era rate him as the best bowler they have faced.. I think thats pretty much all the evidence one needs..Lara's words,''Over my 15 or 16 years of playing international cricket in Tests and One Day Internationals, Wasim Akram is definitely the most outstanding bowler I've ever faced.''

Wisden named him the best ODI bowler ever ahead of Ik,Waqar,Donald,Mcgrath,Muralitharan.

Mcgrath was quoted saying "Wasim Akram, to me, is one of the greatest bowlers of all time''
 
Generous praise from a legend to a decent bowler.

It's unfair to view Steyn as South Africa's best ever bowler when you consider the exceptional Allan Donald.
 
Mamoon_Ghaffar said:
What an embarrassment he is in ODIs :kapil

Why do South Africa even bother him?
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Mamoon_Ghaffar said:
So a guy who is amongst the top 3 pacers of all time can't even buy a wicket in the IPL :))

Who cares if he has a wonderful economy rate? He is a strike bowler; his job is to take wickets not to contain runs.

He is tied on wickets with Ishant Sharma and Dinda while having bowled more overs :)) and has less wickets than Perera, Kallis, Faulkner, Vinay Kumar, Johnson and Bravo, just to name the seamers.

His strike rate is not even amongst the top 50 bowlers this season and he has the 34th best average.

I know his intolerant fans are gonna pop up and say that judging a test great on his IPL performance is beyond ridiculous because it is a nothing league, but on the other hand you are quick to downplay players who do well in IPL because it is standard is very low. Well if its standard is that low, why is Dale "better than Wasim, Waqar, Donald, Lillee bla bla" Steyn so ineffective that trundlers like Vinay Kumar are ahead of him?

So he's completely mediocre in ODIs and T20s but brilliant in tests. How does that make him the best in the world? It makes him a test specialist. Nothing more.

He is easily the worst best fast bowler ever if you know what I'm trying to say.

He is considered the best today but he pales in comparison to the best bowlers of the preceding generations.

The likes of Wasim, Waqar, Lillee, Donald, Pollock, Holding, Roberts, Mcgrath, Richard Hadlee, Ambrose were brilliant in both Tests and ODIs and hence they all rank above him.

One can only imagine how devastating Waqar, Wasim, Mcgrath etc would have been in the IPL.

Steyn the stand out pacer of this generation simply cannot get into an all time Test XI yet let alone an alll time XI based on both formats.

That really shows he stands out more because of the glaring lack of quality of bowlers elsewhere rather than him being that good.

Steyn is more comparable to Walsh, another bowler who did really well in tests but was mediocre in ODIs and that is a level below the greats I mentioned beforehand.

I know ODI cricket may not matter to you but tell that to legends of the game who bowled their hearts out in a "meaningless format which know one cares about and is not important".

Pretty sure they'd be shedding tears in regret now.
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He is still way better than Anderson who is much more pathetic in the shorter formats and is easily one of the top ten pacers of all time. Nothing more nothing less.
 
Mamoon_Ghaffar said:
:))

Pre Injury Waqar was on a completely different level to Steyn, he bowled deliveries which Steyn can't even dream of.
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Pre Injury post Injury No Injury doesnt matter.Its a excuse that fans bring in to hide Waqar's failures in his later career.

Bowlers are judged over their careers and right now Steyn is ahead of Waqar in terms of Avg SR performance againist top teams.

Steyn is ahead of Waqar and if he keeps going like this he may end up above everyone else.

Care to compare the stats of Waqar and Steyn in those pre injury days?

Steyn bowls outswingers Waqar cant even dream about.Even Wasim,Lille and Kapil will find it hard to bowl such outswingers.
 
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cricketjoshila said:
Pre Injury post Injury No Injury doesnt matter.Its a excuse that fans bring in to hide Waqar's failures in his later career.

Bowlers are judged over their careers and right now Steyn is ahead of Waqar in terms of Avg SR performance againist top teams.

Steyn is ahead of Waqar and if he keeps going like this he may end up above everyone else.

Care to compare the stats of Waqar and Steyn in those pre injury days?

Steyn bowls outswingers Waqar cant even dream about.Even Wasim,Lille and Kapil will find it hard to bowl such outswingers.
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waqars' avg in his later career was better than any indian pacer ever while is strike rate was exceptional.
As far as i remember

89-96 avg 19.8
97-02 avg 26.7

He might have more international 5 fers than all indian fast bowlers combined .
 
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cricketjoshila said:
Pre Injury post Injury No Injury doesnt matter.Its a excuse that fans bring in to hide Waqar's failures in his later career.

Bowlers are judged over their careers and right now Steyn is ahead of Waqar in terms of Avg SR performance againist top teams.

Steyn is ahead of Waqar and if he keeps going like this he may end up above everyone else.

Care to compare the stats of Waqar and Steyn in those pre injury days?

Steyn bowls outswingers Waqar cant even dream about.Even Wasim,Lille and Kapil will find it hard to bowl such outswingers.
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which top team(Eng Aus ???), waqar use to avg in teens against great west indies,
 
Shane Bond was much better than Dale Steyn.

Such a shame his body had other ideas, nobody would have talked about Steyn as the best of his generation had Bond's body held up.

Brilliant brilliant bowler.
 
amax said:
which top team(Eng Aus ???), waqar use to avg in teens against great west indies,
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In 90s WI was hardly a great team.What was Waqar's avg vs Aus and India?any idea?

Steyn beats Waqar Hands down.Compare avgs compare SRs anyway you want.
 
amax said:
waqars' avg in his later career was better than any indian pacer ever while is strike rate was exceptional.
As far as i remember

89-96 avg 19.8
97-02 avg 26.7

He might have more international 5 fers than all indian fast bowlers combined .
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Didnt know Dale Steyn was an Indian?The comparision is between Steyn and Waqar.

And an avg of 27 shows he was avg in his later career.

Steyn is ahead of Waqar by some distance.
 
I don't buy this peak excuse.

Waqar's peak lasted around 18 months.

eZ31gpH.jpg


Steyn's peak lasted 5 years, and still counting...

UZT5Ko7.jpg


Steyn surpassed Donald's record with 7 matches to spare, in an era less favourable to fast bowling!
 
cricketjoshila said:
In 90s WI was hardly a great team.What was Waqar's avg vs Aus and India?any idea?

Steyn beats Waqar Hands down.Compare avgs compare SRs anyway you want.
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how old are u 10 years???....WI was unbeaten till 1996 , India was worst than Zimbabwe.
 
amax said:
how old are u 10 years???....WI was unbeaten till 1996 , India was worst than Zimbabwe.
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India beat all and sundry at home in 90s.

WI were not a great team in 90s.what was there win loss ratio?

Which team gave ZIM their only away victory in test in 90s?

I am sure i have watched more cricket than you atleast.Thats why i dont hide behind "PEAK YEARS" excuse to judge players.
 
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Jo_Don said:
I don't buy this peak excuse.

Waqar's peak lasted around 18 months.

eZ31gpH.jpg


Steyn's peak lasted 5 years, and still counting...

UZT5Ko7.jpg


Steyn surpassed Donald's record with 7 matches to spare, in an era less favourable to fast bowling!
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I dont want to compare two of my favorite bowlers but some points.

This era seems less favorable ; due to one or another reason some talented fast bowlers post 2000 cant make big I am talking about Bond, Akhter, Asif, regardless Steyn is enjoying best conditions for fast bowling(In some SA pitches you have to just place the bowl at the right areas).

Secondly, it is an established fact that swing playing ability of batsmen have declined now there are no more gooches, crowes, flowers etc.Additionally Waqar had to share his scalps with an equally good if not better partner therefore it was very difficult for him to maintain high rankings for too long.
 
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amax said:
I dont want to compare two of my favorite bowlers but some points.

This era seems less favorable ; due to one or another reason some talented fast bowlers post 2000 cant make big I am talking about Bond, Akhter, Asif, regardless Steyn is enjoying best conditions for fast bowling(In some SA pitches you have to just place the bowl at the right areas).

Secondly, it is an established fact that swing playing ability of batsmen have declined now there are no more gooches, crowes, flowers etc.Additionally Waqar had to share his scalps with an equally good if not better partner therefore it was very difficult for him to maintain high rankings for too long.
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More excuses.

Warne and Mcgrath played together both ended up with more than 500 wicketz in tests.

Waqar's high avg of 27 suggest that he failed to take wickets and leaked runs as well.

If ability to play swing has diminished how come no other bowler is profiteering?

Steyn beats Waqar in avgs and SRs.He is just a better bowler how hard is to accept that?
 
cricketjoshila said:
More excuses.

Warne and Mcgrath played together both ended up with more than 500 wicketz in tests.

Waqar's high avg of 27 suggest that he failed to take wickets and leaked runs as well.

If ability to play swing has diminished how come no other bowler is profiteering?

Steyn beats Waqar in avgs and SRs.He is just a better bowler how hard is to accept that?
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27 avg with waqaresque strike rate is world class in every era. With in a year or so Steyn will be entering into tail end of his career when stats of all Genuine fast bowlers take a blow let us talk after that.

Finally, for your kind information all genuine fast bowlers are great for 5-6 years(peak) after that they are very good not great.
 
Waqar bowled alot in county cricket and was less protected and then toward's the latter of his career was barely used while under wasim's captaincy,

If Dale bowled as much as Waqar bowled in county cricket he wouldn't last 1 year,

Not sayin Dale isn't special. Dale is at his peak right now, best to compare career when Dale's called it a day
 
liaqat said:
Waqar bowled alot in county cricket and was less protected and then toward's the latter of his career was barely used while under wasim's captaincy,

If Dale bowled as much as Waqar bowled in county cricket he wouldn't last 1 year,

Not sayin Dale isn't special. Dale is at his peak right now, best to compare career when Dale's called it a day
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More excuses.A new one now.Waqar played county cricket and Steyn didnt so Waqar is better than Steyn.

Steyn has 300 plus test wickets will go past Waqar in next 12 months or so.

This a career sir not some Peak that PPers.use to defend Waqar.
 
amax said:
27 avg with waqaresque strike rate is world class in every era. With in a year or so Steyn will be entering into tail end of his career when stats of all Genuine fast bowlers take a blow let us talk after that.

Finally, for your kind information all genuine fast bowlers are great for 5-6 years(peak) after that they are very good not great.
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Steyn already has 300 plus wickets hence comparable to any bowler.

AS things stand

Steyn has 300 plus wickets at a better avg and SR than Waqar and hence is a better bowler.
 
Didnt Waqar say that Mitchell Johnson can be the next Wasim Akram.

Woudlnt go too much in his comments, IMO Waqar himself was a more accomplished fast bowler.
 
My poor opinion kind of agrees with Waqar's informed opinion.
 
LegendsXI said:
Can be lol. Im sorry Mitchell and Akram cant be mentioned in the same sentence.
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Ah yes, the untouchable Akram who can never be compared to anyone.

The fact is that anyone has the potential to be as good as or better than anyone. Whether they live up to it is something else entirely.
 
Jo_Don said:
Ah yes, the untouchable Akram who can never be compared to anyone.

The fact is that anyone has the potential to be as good as or better than anyone. Whether they live up to it is something else entirely.
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Well certainly not Mitchell Johnson. The fact that Waqar was so far off on this comparison, shows his ability to hype certain players.

Crux Mitchell was never going to be any where near Wasim.

And on this analysis, i have a hard time believing that Styen is the best there ever was.
 
LegendsXI said:
Well certainly not Mitchell Johnson. The fact that Waqar was so far off on this comparison, shows his ability to hype certain players.

Crux Mitchell was never going to be any where near Wasim.

And on this analysis, i have a hard time believing that Styen is the best there ever was.
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He isn't Sourh Africa's best bowler let alone best of all time. Both Donald and Pollock were better.

Beasts in both formats.
 
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To be fair Johnno was awesome for his first couple of years. Then he seemed to get the yips.
 
LegendsXI said:
Well certainly not Mitchell Johnson. The fact that Waqar was so far off on this comparison, shows his ability to hype certain players.

Crux Mitchell was never going to be any where near Wasim.

And on this analysis, i have a hard time believing that Styen is the best there ever was.
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Johnson had a great start to his career, so the potential was there.

Like it or not, your Wasim is not untouchable.
 
Jo_Don said:
Johnson had a great start to his career, so the potential was there.

Like it or not, your Wasim is not untouchable.
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Well no bowler in 1oo plus years of cricket has been near Wasim yet.But then you never know what the future is.
 
Jo_Don said:
That's a bold statement. Are you calling him the best ever?
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In terms of left arm bowling he is the best ever.

In terms of fast bowling i doubt anyone can do what Wasim could do with the ball.He is one of the top 5 bowlers for sure.
 
cricketjoshila said:
Well no bowler in 1oo plus years of cricket has been near Wasim yet.
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Surely, you are not talking about right hand bowlers here otherwise even in last 25 years, we have seen Marshall, McGrath and Ambrose. I have seen them along with Wasim. Saw only last few years of Marshall but that was enough for me.

Now for left hander, as far as some one coming close to Wasim is concerned,I think Davidson comes close for sure. Due to relatively shorter career, I won't put him ahead of Wasim but just to put it in perspective,

AK Davidson - 44 Tests at avg of 20.53.

Wasim avearges 3 runs higher and it's very likely that Davidson would have averaged higher with more number of test matches but to keep it in perspective, Davidson would have averaged near Wasim even after averaging around 26-27 in his next 44 test matches. Amazing isn't it? He was a left hand bowler and great performer against every single opposition he played during his time. He performed brilliantly in Eng, Aus, Ind, Pakistan & SA. Basically he did fantastic no matter where he played and who was the opposition. He was very decent batsman as well. Known for hitting long sixes.

Davidson and Wasim are two greatest left hand bowlers to play cricket. Also Davidson didn't play in 1800s. He played in 50's/60's. He played fair number of matches against Ind/Pakistan/SA/WI as well apart from playing lot of matches against Eng. Against Eng his average was worst and even that was around 23-24. How many proper bowlers after world war II have averaged lower than Davidson? That gives some clue about his class.

Obviously , I have not seen him and I am only going by what I have read but you talked about 100 years. He happen to play in 50s/60s. There is not doubt that Wasim is far ahead of other left hand fast bowlers in last few generations.
 
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Mamoon_Ghaffar said:
Shane Bond was much better than Dale Steyn.

Such a shame his body had other ideas, nobody would have talked about Steyn as the best of his generation had Bond's body held up.

Brilliant brilliant bowler.
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yeah and Philander is better than Waqar, Wasim IK
 
I dont know why all the peers of wasim from lara to Kallis to Tendulker to Ponting unanimously call him the best they have faced. ?? Probably they dont watch cricket on crickindia.com with calculator in hand.
 
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I dont think there is much to debate here, he is one of the best Genuine fast bowler in the history of game , there are hardly 10 genuine fast bowlers with more than 300 test wickets, so top 3 top 5 doesnot matter, it is only subjective.
 
Buffet said:
Surely, you are not talking about right hand bowlers here otherwise even in last 25 years, we have seen Marshall, McGrath and Ambrose.

Now for left hander, as far as some one coming close to Wasim is concerned,I think Davidson comes close for sure. Due to relatively shorter career, I won't put him ahead of Wasim but just to put it in perspective,

AK Davidson - 44 Tests at avg of 20.53.

Wasim avearges 3 runs higher and it's very likely that Davidson would have averaged higher with more number of test matches but to keep it in perspective, Davidson would have averaged near Wasim even after averaging around 26-27 in his next 44 test matches. Amazing isn't it? He was a left hand bowler and great performer against every single opposition he played during his time. He performed brilliantly in Eng, Aus, Ind, Pakistan & SA. Basically he did fantastic no matter where he played and who was the opposition.

Davidson and Wasim are two greatest left hand bowlers to play cricket. Also Davidson didn't play in 1800s. He played in 50's/60's. He played fair number of matches against Ind/Pakistan/SA/WI as well apart from playing lot of matches against Eng. Against Eng his average was worst and even that was around 23-24. How many proper bowlers after world war II have averaged lower than Davidson? That gives some clue about his class.

Obviously , I have not seen him and I am only going by what I have read but you talked about 100 years. He happen to play in 50s/60s. There is not doubt that Wasim is far ahead of other left hand fast bowlers in last few generations.
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I was mentioning Left armers as the discussion was about Mitchell Johnson.

Secondly i dont consider Ambrose to be anywhere near Akram.How many wickets Ambrose has in the SC?

Well Davidson was agreat bowler.But how do you compare 144 wickets to 414?
 
cricketjoshila said:
Secondly i dont consider Ambrose to be anywhere near Akram.How many wickets Ambrose has in the SC?
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In Asia - Ambrose has 37 wickets at average of 22.50 in 6 test matches. Taken together he has done very well in SC. it's not the case where he ran away from SC.

What makes you say that Ambrose was not even close to Wasim? I consider Ambrose better bowler but you think he was not even close to Wasim. I will be interested to hear any evidence to back that up. I have watched them both, almost full career. I enjoyed watching Wasim, lot more than Ambrose, but I always felt that Ambrose was more effective bowler. He used to rip batting line ups consistently.


cricketjoshila said:
Well Davidson was agreat bowler.But how do you compare 144 wickets to 414?
Click to expand...

You can't, because Wasim had much longer career. That's why most people, including me, put him below Wasim otherwise he was more consistent in all countries and against all opposition in his short career of 44 test matches. I also pointed out that he could have averaged 27 in his next 44 test matches and still had same career average as Wasim. That's a clue how great he was in his short career.
 
Last edited:
Move over all the average bowlers of this decade (except starc lol), ATG Steyn is back and hopefully here to reclaim his number 1 ranking!
 
stop arguing and enjoy the most complete fast bowler of this era... no1 came close to this guy for a decade now...

we had Anderson and Broad, the only 2 who u think can compete with him but we all know that he is miles ahead of both of them... an absolute legend ....
 
What a team SA had 2-3 years back?

Steyn
Kallis
Amla
Smith
ABD
Morkel
Philander

7 world class players in a team.
 
The Last Of The Stars said:
Not in top 3 at all, feasted in an era of rare great batsmen.
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There wasn't really a rare great batsmen but there were several ok batsmen taking advantage of rules, grounds, bats. Bowlers of this era had to combat that. Also Steyn did have advantage of playing half of his games on bowling friendly wickets in South Africa, still doesn't mean he's a bad bowler.

I personally want to see how Steyn ends his career before rating him among all other bowlers, but he really does deserve more praise because he was outstanding in a batsmens era, likewise how batsmen in the bowlers era should be rated more than the batsmen in this era.

Example: Kholi isn't better than Tendu, Lara, Miandad no matter how he ends his career, unless ICC balances the game or bowler friendly initiatives are taken.

Example 2: Someone like McGrath should be comparable to Steyn, Anderson, Broad ( if all 3 end their careers on a consistent high ) This is if rules continue to favour batsman.
 
I don't know if he is top 3 all-time, but he is definitely one of the best fast bowlers we have ever seen.
 
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