Dale Steyn among the top three pacers of all time, says Waqar Younis

[shah_1]

Chennai:Former Pakistan skipper Waqar Younis says Dale Steyn is among the top three fast bowlers of all time and reckons the South African has it in him to "hit the top" if he keeps going for a another 2-3 seasons.

"Dale Steyn is definitely in the top three for me. And if he keeps going like this for the next two-three years, he'll hit the top. Not many bowlers swing the ball at his pace and have his fitness," Waqar said.

The 41-year fast bowling great is working as a mentor with Sunrisers Hyderabad in the ongoing Indian Premier League (IPL).

"I don't want to offend anyone because there have been some great bowlers in the last four-five decades that I can remember. We've had Imran Khan, Kapil Dev, Dennis Lillee, Glenn McGrath, Wasim Akram, Michael Holding and so many big names," he was quoted as saying by the IPL website.

Waqar was candid in his admission that he is a "big fan" of Steyn who has played a key role in getting his team to a good position in the tournament with eight wickets at an average of 19 and an economy rate of 5.46.

Waqar also hopes Ishant Sharma would live up to his potential in the future.

"He is a very, very hard-working kid. He really wants to learn. Fair enough, he hasn't lived up to his potential up until now but he is on his way. I believe he will do well in the future."

The Pakistani great said unhelpful conditions in the Indian sub-continent was Ishant's undoing.

"The first and the biggest reason are the slow pitches in India. They don't suit his bowling style. He has played most of his 50 Test matches in India.

"I think it has a lot to do with his action as well. He's got a hard action and his height makes it even tougher for him. At times, he also tries to do too much when he doesn't get wickets. We are trying to get him to bowl more good deliveries in a row," added Waqar.

http://sports.ndtv.com/cricket/news/206831-ipl-6-dale-steyn-among-the-top-three-pacers-of-all-time-says-waqar-younis?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[shah_1]

Is he better than Lillee, Imran and Hadlee?

Maybe behind Lillee and Marshall

 

[Jo_Don]

Don't agree with what he said about Ishant. He, Wasim and Imran faced the same unhelpful conditions.

Is he better than Lillee, Imran and Hadlee?

Maybe behind Lillee and Marshall

Ahead of Lillee, who never proved himself on the SC.

The guy went past Allan Donald's record with 6 matches to spare, in an era unfavourable to bowlers. IMO only Marshall is possibly ahead of him at the moment.

 

[Red Devil]

Don't agree with him. Marshall, Mcgrath, Imran, Lillee and Walsh were better than him IMO

 

[endymion248]

Don't agree with what he said about Ishant. He, Wasim and Imran faced the same unhelpful conditions.

Ahead of Lillee, who never proved himself on the SC.

The guy went past Allan Donald's record with 6 matches to spare, in an era unfavourable to bowlers. IMO only Marshall is possibly ahead of him at the moment.

Is bowling in SA in 2010 more unfavourable than bowling in Asia in 1980s?

 

[Jo_Don]

Is bowling in SA in 2010 more unfavourable than bowling in Asia in 1980s?

Not really what I was referring to. Smaller boundaries, bouncer rules, checking for no-balls after every dismissal, and a bunch of other things all conspire against the bowler these days. Playing conditions are not exactly like-for-like.

 

[wrongun]

All this comes down to opinion, but here's mine.

He's a mile better than Walsh, but yet to be the matchwinner that Curtly or McGrath was.

He just might be better than Lillee (now I'm kicked out of Australia, great).

But he's not yet in the league of Imran, McGrath or Marshall (he might get to the next rank with Curtly, we'll see).

 

[SOSami]

Marshall, Ambrose and Waqar are my three.

Steyn would make top 10.

Certainly not no1.

If he is actually the best bowler ever, I don't think cricket is as great a game as I thought it was.

 

[Jo_Don]

Another thing I've noticed - people always seem to omit Pollock when they mention McGrath. They were similar bowlers, and had similar records, but Pollock could actually bat.

 

[BaaliSoda]

Without an IOTA of doubt Steyn is one of the top bowler from current generation of bowlers for any kind of conditions.

I am never a fan of comparing current era players with past ones, so I can't echo similar sentiment to the one expressed by great Waqar.

Growing up and watching cricket mostly from early 90's, my personal favt from SA will always be the one and only #WhiteLightning Allan Donald.

 

[Zahid87]

Alex Ferguson said something this week along the lines that Nostaligia plays tricks on us all. Yearning for the past can make players of bygone eras seem better than they were.

 

[lilFlip]

Wow. Waqar does know what he is talking about!

#respect Dale Steyn.


Poor Ishant Sharma, he is Indian Mohammad Sami (but with no pace )

 

[AFM]

I agree with Waqar. Right now, Steyn is number 4 on my All-Time list - behind Marshall, Imran and Hadlee and ahead of McGrath. If Steyn keeps this up though, then yeah, No. 1 for sure.

 

[Sohaib]

Remember what Waqar said about Mitchel Johnson? He said he is better than Wasim Akram... I had my doubts then but now Waqar might indeed be true! Steyn might end up being one of the best fast bowler IMO

 

[Sherlock]

Quality bowler and would easily play in any 11 currently but.... I always find him to be lacking something in the bowling department. Can't put my finger on it though.

 

[soso_killer]

Exactly, in no particular order Marshall, Steyn, Donald, Waqar and Ambrose are in a league of their own. And then the rest. Maybe Hadlee deserves a place there as well but those 5 would be my 1st pick though.

 

[Buffet]

Another thing I've noticed - people always seem to omit Pollock when they mention McGrath. They were similar bowlers, and had similar records, but Pollock could actually bat.

Ah, No. Look Pollock is there in my post alongside McGrath,

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showpost.php?p=5737560&postcount=62

 

[Zaz]

Not in my top 3, top 5 yes

I rate marshall, lillee and hadlee ahead of him

 

[Madplayer]

Problem is, steyn is at his peak right now and everyone thinks he is the best or amongst the top three.. We should wait untill he enters his 30s and mid 30s (if he doesnt decide to retire before that) and then judge him. If wasim or imran had retired 3-4 years before when they actually did, they would have had unmatched statistics.

 

[MightyObnoxious]

Steyn is no 1 for me. Never saw Marshall, Imran, Lille etc and do not have the pleasure of watching Wasim and Waqar in their peaks so... Steyn for me...... But, If stats are to be looked at then who knows??

 

[Varun]

I agree.

Havent seen any of the bowlers of yore (from the 70s and 80s) but you would think that the conditions they bowled in were very favourable to fast bowling.

Unlike the predominantly batting pitches Steyn plies his trade on today.

 

[Yossarian]

Waqar is is currently the coach of Steyn, being the fast bowling coach of Sunrisers Hyderabad and Steyn being their star bowler. So would you expect Waqar to say he's not that high up in the list?
I would not have been surprised if Waqar had even said Steyn was the best he's ever seen and Ishant was the best Indian fast bowler he's ever seen!

 

[JustListen]

LOL, this is hilarious. Its like calling shoaib the best bowler in his hey days. Steyn has yet to prove himself in the shorter format. Waqar again with his senseless comments.

 

[SL_Fan]

My top 10 fast bowlers during the last 50 years

1 Malcolm Marshall
2 Curtly Ambrose
3 Glenn McGrath
4 Richard Hadlee
5 Imran Khan
6 Joel Garner
7 Wasim Akram
8 Dennis Lillee
9 Allan Donald
10 Michael Holding

I reckon Steyn will end up somewhere around 4-6 if his bowling does not deteriorate considerably from now on until he calls it a day. He'll be 30 in a couple of months so he's probably looking at another 7 or so years in the game.

 

[SL_Fan]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...3;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

[soso_killer]

All this comes down to opinion, but here's mine.

He's a mile better than Walsh, but yet to be the matchwinner that Curtly or McGrath was.

He just might be better than Lillee (now I'm kicked out of Australia, great).

But he's not yet in the league of Imran, McGrath or Marshall (he might get to the next rank with Curtly, we'll see).

Sorry mate but this is utter rubbish. The is no better match winner in the history of the game than Steyn NONE
HERE ARE THE NUMBERS:
IN WINS (QUALIFICATION 150 WICKETS)
Sorted by S. Rate
(Name, win, wickets@S.R)
1. D. Steyn, 35, 234@30.7
2. R. Hadlee, 22, 173@33.5
3. W. Younis, 39, 222@35.0
4. A. Donald, 33, 187@35.5
5. Marshall,43, 254@38.1
6. I. Khan, 26, 155@38.3
7. D. Lillee,31, 203@39.0
8. M. Holding, 31, 152@40.8
9. F. Trueman, 34, 177@40.8
10. W. Akram, 41, 211@42.3
^
21. McGrath, 84, 414@47.7
TOP ORDER WICKET IN WINS (TOP 6)
1. Steyn, 35, 227@31.2
2. W. Younis, 39, 201@35.6
3. R. Hadlee, 22, 157@35.6
4. A. Donald, 33, 172@36.5
5. D. Lillee, 31, 196@39.6
6. Marshall, 43, 233@39.8
7. W. Akram, 41, 204@42.7
8. Ntini, 50, 226@43.5
9. F. Trueman, 34, 155@44.5
10. M. Murali, 53, 368@45.0
^
18. McGrath, 84, 406@48.4
TOP ORDER WICKETS IN WINS (TOP 6) 150 WICKETS Minimum
Sorted by average
1. R. Hadlee 13.92
2. D. Steyn 16.29
3. M. Murali 17.22
4. A. Donald 17.36
5. Marshall 17.63
6. Ambrose 17.72
7. Pollock 18.30
8. D. Lillee 18.50
9. W. Akram 18.53
10. Trueman 18.79
11. W. Younis 18.35
12. McGrath 19.50

as you can see there are better match winners than McGrath and none better than Steyn.
Average Number Of Wickets IN Wins
1. Murali 8.11
2. Hadlee 7.86
3. Steyn 6.69
4. Lillee 6.55
5. I. Khan 5.96
6. Marshall 5.91
7. W. Younis 5.69
8. A. Donald 5.67
9. Trueman 5.21
10. Ambrose 5.20
11. W. Akram 5.15
12. McGrath 4.93

you should take into account that Lillee, Hadlee and Murali bowled more overs per game than others on this list which is why they have higher average number of wickets in wins.
Murali bowled 55.18 overs per game.
Lillee 43.96.
Hadlee 42.47.
Steyn 34.36.
McGrath 39.31
This clearly indicates that Steyn is the greatest bowler ever

 

[Executioner]

Considering their records, steyn will hard to find himself in the top 5 bowlers...

but, he has played during an era of flat tracks and thick bats. If guys like lilee and marshall played at present with so many formats, i think their test average would have been close to 24/25

 

[Buffet]

My top 10 fast bowlers during the last 50 years

1 Malcolm Marshall
2 Curtly Ambrose
3 Glenn McGrath
4 Richard Hadlee
5 Imran Khan
6 Joel Garner
7 Wasim Akram
8 Dennis Lillee
9 Allan Donald
10 Michael Holding

I reckon Steyn will end up somewhere around 4-6 if his bowling does not deteriorate considerably from now on until he calls it a day. He'll be 30 in a couple of months so he's probably looking at another 7 or so years in the game.

Top 3 bowlers in bold (I have seen who have retired. I Will wait for Steyn to retire before making a direct comparison).

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Its not an invalid point. Steyn is definitely one of the best fast bowlers in history. When you start getting into Top 5 or Top 3 it becomes a bit more difficult, the topic becomes more subjective and depends on an an individuals preferences.

 

[Madplayer]

dale Steyn is a great of the game. Undoubtedly one of the finest we have seen. But it would be unfair to say that he is ahead of almost all previous greats of the game.

Steyn averages 20.56 in SA where he is provided with the best of pitches, he averages 24.59 outside SA.
Averages 27 vs Aus and Sl,
32 vs England who are good players of pace.
You can see the fluctuations in his averages which means his averages are boosted because of his performances against poor players of pace (vs india 19, vs ban 17, vs Nz 17, vs Pak 21, vs Wi 18.68)..

Compare this to Imran khan who has been consistent against every team. Averages 24.9 vs aus, 24.6 vs england, 24 vs india, 14 vs Sl, 21 vs WI (Who were among the best players of pace then) or malcolm marshall who averaged 22.5 vs aus, 19 vs Eng, 22 vs India, 21.5 vs Nz, 21 vs Pak.

And i dont think in Imran or wasim or waqar's case we can say that they bowled on pace friendly tracks because they played most matches in asia. You can say they knew how to bowl in these unfriendly conditions because they were familiar to them.

other thing about steyn is that he is at his peak and almost every great fast bowler at his peak looked like the best ever. Waqar was Arguably better than any other bowler during his best years.
That is why IMO its not possible to rank the greats of the game with much accuracy, especially the fast bowlers.

I wish steyn all the best and may he go down as an even better bowler than what he is now.

 

[SL_Fan]

This clearly indicates that Steyn is the greatest bowler ever??

Cmon now don't get too ahead of yourself. Of course he has a lower SR for now compared to the other top bowlers who have retired, but what about the average? I highly doubt Steyn will end up in the top 3. That will take some doing. Only time will tell I guess.

 

[Kianig89]

Steyn's mediocre in Odi's and sometimes in Tests when ball is older.............so not in top 5.........

 

[kingusama92]

If he keeps going as he is, I don't doubt that statement. He's a beast of a bowler.

He's also bowling in one of the toughest eras for fast bowlers.

 

[Sankalp]

Just wondering how much successful Marshal, Imran, Hadlee, Lilee, Akram, Waqar, Kapil would have if they played T'20. There is where Steyn need to get credit as he is bowling in an era where Batsman dominates everything.

 

[Madplayer]

Just wondering how much successful Marshal, Imran, Hadlee, Lilee, Akram, Waqar, Kapil would have if they played T'20. There is where Steyn need to get credit as he is bowling in an era where Batsman dominates everything.

Wasim says he would have enjoyed bowling in t20s and his bowling would have suited this format..

 

[Sankalp]

Wasim says he would have enjoyed bowling in t20s and his bowling would have suited this format..

Never know. By the way did you see today's IPL game? Steyn been massacred by Dhoni. And all the sixes went off good balls by test match standard. Thats where the cricket is today...better bats, smaller grounds - all in favour of batsman. Never know how much those old phaast bolwers would have succeded if they played in this era.

 

[Madplayer]

Never know. By the way did you see today's IPL game? Steyn been massacred by Dhoni. And all the sixes went off good balls by test match standard. Thats where the cricket is today...better bats, smaller grounds - all in favour of batsman. Never know how much those old phaast bolwers would have succeded if they played in this era.

Yup saw the game. Amazing finish. But steyn is mediocre in LOIs with an ODI average touching 30 while the great bowlers of yesteryears, especially wasim, were great in ODIs too. So it would be harsh on them to be compared with steyn as far as LOIs are concerned. Steyn in LOIs doesnt have the variety required.

 

[Sankalp]

Yup saw the game. Amazing finish. But steyn is mediocre in LOIs with an ODI average touching 30 while the great bowlers of yesteryears, especially wasim, were great in ODIs too. So it would be harsh on them to be compared with steyn as far as LOIs are concerned. Steyn in LOIs doesnt have the variety required.

Fair point...Steyn need to develop good yorker in ODI's.

 

[speed]

It's not how you start it's how you finish steyn still has 5 years of cricket left in him.

 

[Sandeep]

Can't even bowl to an FTB in a demanding situation...disappoints me! Great test bowler, but not so great in LOIs

 

[PakPrince]

Steyn makes more money in 2 months of IPL Waqar made in his own career

feel bad for the old legends sometimes

 

[Sandeep]

It's not how you start it's how you finish steyn still has 5 years of cricket left in him.

What about Saqlain Mushtaq who was a poor shadow of himself in the end?! What about Waqar Younis' fans who always reiterate the 'importance' of peaks,i.e., 1990-93 )? Logic change for a foreigner?

 

[syedtumair]

the waqar comment has a big if(if he keeps his form and fitness).steyn is a very gud test bowler(the best in current era) but coming to judging him I would rather arrange the bowler according to time/era/team strength.steyn not only has the best pacers bowling with him but also has the best batting line up with him...this has also contributed too his success.obv there he is nt at the top but time will tell if he keeps up with his form he might join the hadlee marshall ik mcgreath club

 

[speed]

What about Saqlain Mushtaq who was a poor shadow of himself in the end?! What about Waqar Younis' fans who always reiterate the 'importance' of peaks,i.e., 1990-93 )? Logic change for a foreigner?

If waqar retied in 1999 he would have finished with average of 21-22 and a sr of 40.

Making him the greatest fast bowler of all time.

 

[Scrolln]

the waqar comment has a big if(if he keeps his form and fitness).steyn is a very gud test bowler(the best in current era) but coming to judging him I would rather arrange the bowler according to time/era/team strength.steyn not only has the best pacers bowling with him but also has the best batting line up with him...this has also contributed too his success.obv there he is nt at the top but time will tell if he keeps up with his form he might join the hadlee marshall ik mcgreath club

McGrath and Marshall both played for two of the greatest teams the world has ever seen.
Why single out Steyn?

 

[Buffet]

Steyn averages 20.56 in SA where he is provided with the best of pitches, he averages 24.59 outside SA. ...
his averages are boosted because of his performances against poor players of pace (vs india 19

Compare this to Imran khan who has been consistent ...

There is flip side as well.

Steyn:

Home - 20.56
Away - 24.59


IK:

Home - 19.20
Away - 25.76

So IK was averaging more than a run lower at home and more than a run higher away when compared to Steyn. Steyn doesn't look more inconsistent than IK.

Mostly bowlers averaging below 25 are contender for ATG category so let's take that number and see how many times they were averaging higher than 25 in a series. If you want to see how consistent they were in series after series,

Series average of higher than 25

Steyn: 11 out of 26 series - 42%
Imran : 11 out of 24 series - 45%

Steyn doesn't look more inconsistent than IK. If you want to see how consistent they were in different countries then .. Steyn has better career average than IK in Aus, India, NZ & WI. He has worse average in Eng, Pakistan and SL. Eng is pretty average for him but over all Steyn doesn't look more inconsistent than IK.

IK might look more consistent only when you look Vs each country which skew it in IK favor due to him doing better at home irrespective of opponent. I just presented the flip side to show that Steyn is not really inconsistent when you compare him to IK.

Also, I don't think putting less weight to Steyn's record against India is justified by saying that India was poor against fast bowlers. Fact is , India had two batsmen who were averaging 50+ away from home. Only 3-4 batsmen from SC have averaged 50+ away. Even in India, Steyn did fantastic where many other great bowlers have ordinary record.

Many people say that wickets are flatter and lot more batsmen are averaging higher in current era so that puts Steyn's record in perspective. Comparing him with retired cricketers is not justified at this moment but he seems very consistent to me. Only Ambrose, McGrath, Pollock and Marshall looked more consistent to me.

 

[soso_killer]

This clearly indicates that Steyn is the greatest bowler ever??

Cmon now don't get too ahead of yourself. Of course he has a lower SR for now compared to the other top bowlers who have retired, but what about the average? I highly doubt Steyn will end up in the top 3. That will take some doing. Only time will tell I guess.

Yeah i got carried away there . But IMO its hard to see who could put Steyn in the bench. He averages 5.2 wickets per game 2nd only to Murali. He will end up in the top 5 though. I'm sure he will end up averaging around 4.6-4.8 wickets per game which is what great bowlers average

 

[soso_killer]

Anyway my main point was that he is a better match winner than McGrath which i admit i went over the top

 

[Yossarian]

Sorry mate but this is utter rubbish. The is no better match winner in the history of the game than Steyn NONE
HERE ARE THE NUMBERS:
IN WINS (QUALIFICATION 150 WICKETS)
Sorted by S. Rate
(Name, win, wickets@S.R)
1. D. Steyn, 35, 234@30.7
2. R. Hadlee, 22, 173@33.5
3. W. Younis, 39, 222@35.0
4. A. Donald, 33, 187@35.5
5. Marshall,43, 254@38.1
6. I. Khan, 26, 155@38.3
7. D. Lillee,31, 203@39.0
8. M. Holding, 31, 152@40.8
9. F. Trueman, 34, 177@40.8
10. W. Akram, 41, 211@42.3
^

Why only wins? Besides, I'm sure having a great batting lineup helps by putting up big scores and thereby allowing the captain to place attacking fields and create pressure in addition to scoreboard pressure on the opposing batsmen.

The likes of Hadlee, Waqar, Wasim and Imran were never blessed with great batting lineups to the same degree, batting lineups that were regulary decimating the opposition bowlers and putting up huge totals, thereby allowing the likes of McGrath, Marshall, Holding & co. to enjoy bowling with attacking field placements.

Steyn is benefitting in a similar way considering the quality of the South African batting lineup.

 

[SL_Fan]

Yeah i got carried away there . But IMO its hard to see who could put Steyn in the bench. He averages 5.2 wickets per game 2nd only to Murali. He will end up in the top 5 though. I'm sure he will end up averaging around 4.6-4.8 wickets per game which is what great bowlers average

Yeah top 5 is definitely achieveable imo, or even number 4 if he can keep this up for 4 or 5 years of the 7 or so years left in him. Tough ask though.

 

[emclub]

Everybody missed that Waqar called kapil a great fast bowler )

 

[syedtumair]

McGrath and Marshall both played for two of the greatest teams the world has ever seen.
Why single out Steyn?

i would rather go with hadlee and ik..they both had very medicore teams and with lack of partners.. and performed very well in difficult conditions...kapil dev is also an underrated one.steyn is yet to show is true achievement...if he continue like this and improves his LO record he can be one of the great.but it is too early to say...i have very high hopes he can cross 530 wickets ...lets see

 

[soso_killer]

Why only wins? Besides, I'm sure having a great batting lineup helps by putting up big scores and thereby allowing the captain to place attacking fields and create pressure in addition to scoreboard pressure on the opposing batsmen.

The likes of Hadlee, Waqar, Wasim and Imran were never blessed with great batting lineups to the same degree, batting lineups that were regulary decimating the opposition bowlers and putting up huge totals, thereby allowing the likes of McGrath, Marshall, Holding & co. to enjoy bowling with attacking field placements.

Steyn is benefitting in a similar way considering the quality of the South African batting lineup.

a good bowler is a good bowler Z. Khan had Sewhag, Ganguly, Tendulkar, Dravid Laxman etc. that did not make him a world class bowler. We cant down play Steyn's achievements with petty talk. Besides Marshall is still regarded by many as the best bowler to have graced the game, he had a good batting lineup as well.
Anyway like i said above my point was that Steyn is a better match winner than McGrath, disputing the above user's claims.

 

[Shaddy]

The same Waqar couple of months ago said, He'd love to see a bit more of philander and Steyn bowl in subcontinental conditions in test before psassing on his final verdict. And If Steyn can prove him self to be as lethal as Imran, Wasim or Waqar were themselves in Subcontinent then I would definitely regard him as the best bowler. For now he hasn't played enough cricket to be judged

 

[Buffet]

Anyway like i said above my point was that Steyn is a better match winner than McGrath, disputing the above user's claims.

I don't know how do you decide match winner. McGrath was more consistent than Steyn. He averaged below 25 in series lot more consistently than Steyn. A bowler averaging below 25 more consistently is surely going to help his team more often.

I am not saying that McGrath was a bigger match winner but on what basis we should pronounce Steyn as bigger Match winner. I don't think even Man of the Match reflects true status because bowler might contribute a lot in win but not get Man of the match in specific match. We should directly see the frequency of series winning performance. That's why I tried to look how often a bowler was averaging below 25 in series. Even that is not fool proof. But I thought it's an important factor in seeing who is putting up series winning performances more frequently. This can be directly compared for all bowlers as opposed to comparing indirect parameters which depends on other players to a large extent.

 

[Eye_Done]

 

[Justcrazy]

Steyn Is among the best of this Era , but do not think he is THE best.

has habit of saying things like that.

 

[Madplayer]

There is flip side as well.

Steyn:

Home - 20.56
Away - 24.59


IK:

Home - 19.20
Away - 25.76

So IK was averaging more than a run lower at home and more than a run higher away when compared to Steyn.

Imran'S home is in Pakistan, steyn's home is south africa so you knows where the conditions suit fast bowling more.

Steyn doesn't look more inconsistent than IK.

Mostly bowlers averaging below 25 are contender for ATG category so let's take that number and see how many times they were averaging higher than 25 in a series. If you want to see how consistent they were in series after series,

Series average of higher than 25

Steyn: 11 out of 26 series - 42%
Imran : 11 out of 24 series - 45%

Imran played 25 series not 24. And its Not so easy. Thats not much of a difference. How about comparing how many times they averaged below 20 for consistency?

IK = 11 Times in 25 series
steyn =8 times in 26 series

average below 15

IK =5 in 25 series
Steyn = 4 in 26

Steyn doesn't look more inconsistent than IK. If you want to see how consistent they were in different countries then .. Steyn has better career average than IK in Aus, India, NZ & WI. He has worse average in Eng, Pakistan and SL. Eng is pretty average for him but over all Steyn doesn't look more inconsistent than IK.

i'll tell u how your analysis of their away matches is flawed. Imran averages 28.5 in Australia and steyn averages 28.03 . Not much of a difference. Imran averages 24.6 in england, steyn averages 31.6. Huge difference. Fair enough steyn beats imran in India fair and square. In newzealand steyn averages 26.5 ,imran averages 26.6. Again Nothing separates them really. Incase u want to consider this as well, In Pakistan steyn averages 26.6 ,imran averages 19. Huge difference. In srilanka imran averages 18 , steyn averages 36 . Again massive difference. In westindies steyn 18 , imran 25 But thats also due to the fact that windies were beasts during Imran's career and they are no better than minnows now. Not to mention steyn averages 46 in U.A.E.

IK might look more consistent only when you look Vs each country which skew it in IK favor due to him doing better at home irrespective of opponent. I just presented the flip side to show that Steyn is not really inconsistent when you compare him to IK.

yup IK beats steyn in "VS each country" too.

Also, I don't think putting less weight to Steyn's record against India is justified by saying that India was poor against fast bowlers. Fact is , India had two batsmen who were averaging 50+ away from home. Only 3-4 batsmen from SC have averaged 50+ away. Even in India, Steyn did fantastic where many other great bowlers have ordinary record.

Fair point.

Many people say that wickets are flatter and lot more batsmen are averaging higher in current era so that puts Steyn's record in perspective. Comparing him with retired cricketers is not justified at this moment but he seems very consistent to me.

I dont buy this "wickets are flatter" thing. Steyn plays most matches in SA where the pitches suit him big time. In SC, apart from India he is not that great.

Only Ambrose, McGrath, Pollock and Marshall looked more consistent to me.

your Opinion.

 

[Bilal7]

Waqar was hyping Steyn up, not that the latter needs it. Already an ATG but I'd rate a few pacers higher than him.

 

[LethalSami]

Waqar himself is a little bit better bowler than Steyn...IMO

Steyn is in the all time TOP 10.......Waqar is in TOP 5 (+ Waqar and Wasim and Imran) and other SC pacers had to endure harsher pitches

that little blip is due to Steyn Okayish record in ODI's....

where other top 5 bowlers have sub 23-24 ODI avgs. Steyn is a bit on high side.
HOWEVER, as much as a legend in TESTS as other.

without an iota of doubt.....Steyn is the best bowler of 21st century till date.

 

[pungi]

Steyn makes more money in 2 months of IPL Waqar made in his own career

feel bad for the old legends sometimes

thats not the case with Akram though

 

[pungi]

Waqar himself is a little bit better bowler than Steyn...IMO

Steyn is in the all time TOP 10.......Waqar is in TOP 5 (+ Waqar and Wasim and Imran) and other SC pacers had to endure harsher pitches

that little blip is due to Steyn Okayish record in ODI's....

where other top 5 bowlers have sub 23-24 ODI avgs. Steyn is a bit on high side.
HOWEVER, as much as a legend in TESTS as other.

oh is it? Then Wasim/Akhtar/Waqar/Imran would have found a lot more success outside Pakistan than in Pakistan? Esp. in countries like Australia, England, SA where the conditions suited bowling, right? So many did they average in those countries compared to Pakistan?

 

[Madplayer]

oh is it? Then Wasim/Akhtar/Waqar/Imran would have found a lot more success outside Pakistan than in Pakistan? Esp. in countries like Australia, England, SA where the conditions suited bowling, right? So many did they average in those countries compared to Pakistan?

They were familiar to SC pitches so they bowled better here. They didnt play as many matches outside SC as they did in SC or else they'd have had better stats outside SC.

 

[Buffet]

Imran'S home is in Pakistan, steyn's home is south africa so you knows where the conditions suit fast bowling more.

IK has larger gap between home and away average. That's what I was pointing out to compare their consistency. Smaller gap makes it more consistent. Nothing to do with conditions here.

Not to mention steyn averages 46 in U.A.E.

I intentionally took out places like BD, UAE, SA etc to stick to where both played when comparing in each country. It would be pointless to list countries where only one person has played. Also if one has played in 10 countries( as opposed to 7) then chance of few bad tests spoiling figures in specific country increases manifold.

Imran played 25 series not 24. And its Not so easy. Thats not much of a difference.

You are right , there is not much difference. That's why I said Imran doesn't seem more consistent after pointing this out. I wasn't claiming that Steyn is more consistent among these two.


I picked 25 bowling average because 25 is normally considered cut off mark for most ATG bowlers. Also, their bowling average is in lower 20's. Combining those two factors it seemed nice cut off to see how many times they went above 25 (above the cut off for career average of ATG bowlers)

I was only pointing out that there is not much difference as far as consistency is concerned when you compare these two from few different angles. Steyn was outside norm against Eng and that's the only valid point for pointing out his inconsistency. But that's not much because other things are almost equal.

 

[Buffet]

They were familiar to SC pitches so they bowled better here. They didnt play as many matches outside SC as they did in SC or else they'd have had better stats outside SC.

Collectively IK/Wasim/Waqar played over 120 test matches outside SC. That's very large number of test matches. Each played around 40 test matches outside of SC. Over 120 test matches outside SC , collectively they average 26+. You can't say that if they had played 200 test matches then they would have averaged 22-23.

If you look at Ambrose/Marshall/McGrath/Pollock then you will see that they collectively played substantially less than 120 matches in SC but they average 23 in SC. I think it shows that IK/Wasim/Waqar mainly focused on developing skills which made them lethal in SC conditions. They didn't adapt to alien conditions as well as Marshall/Ambrose/McGrath/Pollock did. Anyway, all of them were great bowlers and hopefully we get few more of such kinds in future.

 

[Madplayer]

Collectively IK/Wasim/Waqar played over 120 test matches outside SC. That's very large number of test matches. Each played around 40 test matches outside of SC. Over 120 test matches outside SC , collectively they average 26+. You can't say that if they had played 200 test matches then they would have averaged 22-23.

If you look at Ambrose/Marshall/McGrath/Pollock then you will see that they collectively played substantially less than 120 matches in SC but they average 23 in SC. I think it shows that IK/Wasim/Waqar mainly focused on developing skills which made them lethal in SC conditions. They didn't adapt to alien conditions as well as Marshall/Ambrose/McGrath/Pollock did. Anyway, all of them were great bowlers and hopefully we get few more of such kinds in future.

What logic is that? Collectively? Lol

 

[Madplayer]

IK has larger gap between home and away average. That's what I was pointing out to compare their consistency. Smaller gap makes it more consistent. Nothing to do with conditions here.



I intentionally took out places like BD, UAE, SA etc to stick to where both played when comparing in each country. It would be pointless to list countries where only one person has played. Also if one has played in 10 countries( as opposed to 7) then chance of few bad tests spoiling figures in specific country increases manifold.



You are right , there is not much difference. That's why I said Imran doesn't seem more consistent after pointing this out. I wasn't claiming that Steyn is more consistent among these two.


I picked 25 bowling average because 25 is normally considered cut off mark for most ATG bowlers. Also, their bowling average is in lower 20's. Combining those two factors it seemed nice cut off to see how many times they went above 25 (above the cut off for career average of ATG bowlers)

I was only pointing out that there is not much difference as far as consistency is concerned when you compare these two from few different angles. Steyn was outside norm against Eng and that's the only valid point for pointing out his inconsistency. But that's not much because other things are almost equal.

The point i was trying to make is that dale steyn, as great as he is, is not really the Best or even among the top 3 of all time. Infact if u read my earlier post i have mentioned its not possible to rank the greats of cricket especially fast bowlers with much accuracy. And going by your analysis in this thread and perhaps mine too ,we can see how close steyn and Imran are to each other not to mention marshall who has an upper hand on arguably every other fast bowler.. That was the whole point of my arguement.

 

[Buffet]

What logic is that? Collectively? Lol

Well you can see individually and similar pattern will emerge for outside SC.

Wasim - 40 matches @ 25
Waqar - 40 odd matches @ 27
IK ----- 40 Odd matches @ 26

You can break down Ambrose/Mcgrath/Marshall/Pollock and you will find out that each one of them have played substantially less than 40 matches in SC but they were able to adapt better. Each of them average around 23 in SC.

I was using them collectively as a group to make a point because even individually it's the same story. I can see why it may sound funny though.

 

[Buffet]

The point i was trying to make is that dale steyn, as great as he is, is not really the Best or even among the top 3 of all time. Infact if u read my earlier post i have mentioned its not possible to rank the greats of cricket especially fast bowlers with much accuracy. And going by your analysis in this thread and perhaps mine too ,we can see how close steyn and Imran are to each other not to mention marshall who has an upper hand on arguably every other fast bowler.. That was the whole point of my arguement.

Sure, stats are just one aspect because based only on stats you can't put one bowler over another. Same is true for batsman. I personally rate Marshall , Ambrose and Mcgrath as top 3 but it's not like there is some large gap between them in some others ATG bowlers. Steyn is still playing and if we chop off his career right now then I am not sure if I will put him in my top 3 yet. Who knows where he will end up by the end of his career.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

"I think it has a lot to do with his action as well. He's got a hard action and his height makes it even tougher for him. At times, he also tries to do too much when he doesn't get wickets. We are trying to get him to bowl more good deliveries in a row," added Waqar.

Ishant has played 50 tests, the sad fact is he's learning this trait now while most people do this stuff in domestic.

Ishant had all the promise but he's just not cut out for international arena.

 

[Madplayer]

Sure, stats are just one aspect because based only on stats you can't put one bowler over another. Same is true for batsman. I personally rate Marshall , Ambrose and Mcgrath as top 3 but it's not like there is some large gap between them in some others ATG bowlers. Steyn is still playing and if we chop off his career right now then I am not sure if I will put him in my top 3 yet. Who knows where he will end up by the end of his career.

this is exactly what i was saying in my earlier posts.

Problem is, steyn is at his peak right now and everyone thinks he is the best or amongst the top three.. We should wait untill he enters his 30s and mid 30s (if he doesnt decide to retire before that) and then judge him.

and i agree stats dont tell the whole picture. Infact i was amazed when some people were rating steyn higher than marshall here on PP.

 

[Buffet]

Infact i was amazed when some people were rating steyn higher than marshall here on PP.

If Steyn can continue like this then he might have a claim but long way to go. Marshall is the best I have seen. I can't rate bowlers which I didn't get to see.

 

[pungi]

They were familiar to SC pitches so they bowled better here. They didnt play as many matches outside SC as they did in SC or else they'd have had better stats outside SC.

Thats the point..everyone bowls better in conditions, he is familiar with. Outside, its always a bit of struggle. So just bcoz Wasim/Imran had a better average in SC that doesn't mean they were better than Ambrose, Mcgrath, Marshall, Donald, Pollock, Walsh, Holding, Steyn, Lilly, Thomson etc etc

 

[soso_killer]

I don't know how do you decide match winner. McGrath was more consistent than Steyn. He averaged below 25 in series lot more consistently than Steyn. A bowler averaging below 25 more consistently is surely going to help his team more often.

I am not saying that McGrath was a bigger match winner but on what basis we should pronounce Steyn as bigger Match winner. I don't think even Man of the Match reflects true status because bowler might contribute a lot in win but not get Man of the match in specific match. We should directly see the frequency of series winning performance. That's why I tried to look how often a bowler was averaging below 25 in series. Even that is not fool proof. But I thought it's an important factor in seeing who is putting up series winning performances more frequently. This can be directly compared for all bowlers as opposed to comparing indirect parameters which depends on other players to a large extent.

come dude i just posted performances in wins and you ask me questions that i have already answered above?

1st averaging 25 in a series does not necessarilly translate to match winning performances it could mean that you were economical and getting a couple of wickets here and there.
Dale Steyn takes a wicket every 30.7 balls in wins at an average of 16 and 6.6 wickets per win.
McGrath a wicket every 47.7 balls at an average of 19 and 4.93 wickets per win.

Please visit my well detailed and unbias analysis so i dont have to repeat myself again.

 

[Down2Earth]

Too tough to say, it's a shame that imran and waqar didn't get to bowl at pakistani batsmen

 

[amax]

Mcgrath was not a fast bowler, there are hardly ten genuine fast bowlers in the history of the game with over 300 wickets.

 

[LethalSami]

SC conditions are tough for pacers...

that's the reason why only Pak has been able to produce WORLD CLASS pacers...........Not a single legendary pacer from IND, SL, BAN combined

 

[Buffet]

come dude i just posted performances in wins and you ask me questions that i have already answered above?

1st averaging 25 in a series does not necessarilly translate to match winning performances it could mean that you were economical and getting a couple of wickets here and there.
Dale Steyn takes a wicket every 30.7 balls in wins at an average of 16 and 6.6 wickets per win.
McGrath a wicket every 47.7 balls at an average of 19 and 4.93 wickets per win.

Please visit my well detailed and unbias analysis so i dont have to repeat myself again.

Nice effort but you have missed most obvious thing people will look. That would be average in matches won. IK & Hadlee will then come ahead of Steyn. Steyn is still on top few. Anyway, I think this match winner stuff is lot more dependent on other factors which is beyond the control of bowler. Bowlers individual performance should be looked in isolation. It's not as if bowlers forgets to bowl in lost matches.

That was my logic in seeing how consistently a bowler is having an average of less than 25 in series which is considered ATG cut off by most. You are right, it might not have 100% match winning performances but this will include all good/great performances which reflects specific bowler's performance without depending on match result.

I will think that a main bowler producing less than 25 average in series has to take lot of wickets. Then if his team sucks and can't win matches , none of his effort will get included in this match winning effort. But in most probability his performance was lot better than some one averaging 30 in series & his team winning it. Not always but that will be the case most of the time. Main bowers don't take few wickets here and there. They bowl lot of overs. Kallis can have below 25 average in series without taking lot of wickets but Steyn actually has to take lot of cheap wickets to average below 25 in series.

As far as match winning contributions goes, I don't need any stats. Steyn is right up there with the best.

 

[Buffet]

Mcgrath was not a fast bowler, there are hardly ten genuine fast bowlers in the history of the game with over 300 wickets.

Thread is not about speed contest. It's about best pacers. McGrath was not a spin bowler. He is considered a pacer by everyone.

You can open a thread with sub category of best express bowlers and there we should not have McGrath. Another category - Express left hand bowlers will have even less people. If we want to see who is better bowler then it's enough to have two categories, spin and fast, for meaningful discussions when comparing bowlers skill.

 

[Mamoon]

Top 3 of all time is a massive overstatement in my opinion.

He's an ATG that is for sure but he will always be a level below of his compatriots who did really well in ODIs as well and could string more than three ODI on a trot without needing to rest.

For those who say ODI performances don't matter, well they do when you compare two players like for like. For that reason, at the moment, Wasim and Waqar rank way above Steyn.

He still has 5/6 years to make up for though. But he is definitely one of the best bowlers of all time based on ability alone.