Dalits seek escape from Indian caste system

[mithun_minhas]

I think it would have been a disaster for Dalits. Today atleast they have 33% reservation in govt and govt jobs.

During independence there were virtually no education in dalits. So creating a nation of people where more than 90% were illeterate is a crime. The 10% elite would have completely made the life of rest horrible.

Atleast with India, they have enough people who think to bring them up (though I do not agree with caste based reservation). Atleast we have 33% dalits in govt leadership which are assured seats.

I agree. But surely there would be at least a 1000 Dalits who are educated enough like Ambedkar.

May be Dalits could have waited for about 10yrs, get their people to some level of education and then demanded a separate state.

Even for Muslims before Independance, the literacy rate was horrible.

As a Brahmin guy, I am tired of listening to Dalits complaining about the atrocities committed on them by our ancestors bla bla bla...

We form less than 4% of the population and yet we get blamed for every misery that exists in India.

 

[Garuda]

I agree. But surely there would be at least a 1000 Dalits who are educated enough like Ambedkar.

May be Dalits could have waited for about 10yrs, get their people to some level of education and then demanded a separate state.

Even for Muslims before Independance, the literacy rate was horrible.

As a Brahmin guy, I am tired of listening to Dalits complaining about the atrocities committed on them by our ancestors bla bla bla...

We form less than 4% of the population and yet we get blamed for every misery that exists in India.

Well from a frustration point of view you can say it would have been better to have separate dalit nation.

But in reality it would have been disaster for them. If there were 1000 educated dalits they would have been oppressing them. E.g. Mayawati.

We have 33% Dalit leadership in parliament. Do you think they are working for Dalits ??

So if they had given a nation to run why do you think they would have worked for Dalits ?

There were a nation created for muslims. Do all muslims got their due ? Didn't the elites took the power and let the poor suffer in their new country ?

 

[insaan]

Reservation in the name of caste means you are supporting the caste system and do not want it to go away. If you keep calling SC, ST, OBC and hence forth, aren't you actually creating them more prominent ?

How is it going to change the situation. It may give some people from that caste benefits but it will never give benefit to whole. On the other hand the feeling and bad blood will increase.

Do you think our politicians wants reservation to help the dalit ? Hell No. Its just a vote bank politics.

If you want reservation make it on economic level irrespective of caste. There should be no mention of caste in any (ANY) thing.

If dalits are the most economically behind then by making economic reservation, they will also come under it without the creamy layer taking the benefit always.

Reservation based on caste means one is promoting the caste system?

Is reservation responsible for Dalits being denied in Temples. Is reservation responsible for the two tumbler system in village tea stalls?

No. Reservation is the affirmative action that is giving justice for the socially backward.

Caste system will go if people stop using their caste surnames. And they stop checking for caste before marrying. Go to any Indian matrimonial site, and you will caste based searches for brides and grooms. Is reservation responsible for that too?

Heard it many times from upper castes that they are against caste in reservations. But they dont mind following their caste in other aspects. Only in jobs and education, they want to do away with the caste system.

Another hypocrisy of the upper castes is when they talk about 33 percent reservation for women. I wonder what happens to their mantra of meritocracy then.

Reservation is not just for the economically backward, but for the socially backward too. As an upper caste, I was economically backward, but never had to face any social discrimination. I still played with rich upper castes, got invited to dine with them, something that I didnt see happening with the Dalits.

There are schemes for poor and then there are schemes for the socially backward. Whether the politicians really care about the Dalits is something I cannot say. I do agree that it has not been implemented properly.

But in principle I support caste based reservations, which exists along with schemes for the poor. It should continue till the field is level for all, and they can compete openly.

PS: My opinions are not targeting you as a person. I am talking about the general upper caste mentality when it comes to reservations.

 

[insaan]

Well from a frustration point of view you can say it would have been better to have separate dalit nation.

But in reality it would have been disaster for them. If there were 1000 educated dalits they would have been oppressing them. E.g. Mayawati.

We have 33% Dalit leadership in parliament. Do you think they are working for Dalits ??

So if they had given a nation to run why do you think they would have worked for Dalits ?

There were a nation created for muslims. Do all muslims got their due ? Didn't the elites took the power and let the poor suffer in their new country ?

Was not aware of that. Can you show me some link for that. Thank you.

 

[Garuda]

Reservation based on caste means one is promoting the caste system?

Is reservation responsible for Dalits being denied in Temples. Is reservation responsible for the two tumbler system in village tea stalls?

No. Reservation is the affirmative action that is giving justice for the socially backward.

Caste system will go if people stop using their caste surnames. And they stop checking for caste before marrying. Go to any Indian matrimonial site, and you will caste based searches for brides and grooms. Is reservation responsible for that too?

Heard it many times from upper castes that they are against caste in reservations. But they dont mind following their caste in other aspects. Only in jobs and education, they want to do away with the caste system.

Another hypocrisy of the upper castes is when they talk about 33 percent reservation for women. I wonder what happens to their mantra of meritocracy then.

Reservation is not just for the economically backward, but for the socially backward too. As an upper caste, I was economically backward, but never had to face any social discrimination. I still played with rich upper castes, got invited to dine with them, something that I didnt see happening with the Dalits.

There are schemes for poor and then there are schemes for the socially backward. Whether the politicians really care about the Dalits is something I cannot say. I do agree that it has not been implemented properly.

But in principle I support caste based reservations, which exists along with schemes for the poor. It should continue till the field is level for all, and they can compete openly.

PS: My opinions are not targeting you as a person. I am talking about the general upper caste mentality when it comes to reservations.

Again, You didn't understand my point.

I didn't say reservation responsible for dalit not entering temple nor I say it recommended two tumbler thing.

But it made me aware that there is this concept which my parents never tought me that there is a lower caste. The govt tought me that there is a lower caste and I am a upper caste.

Also social backwardness doesn't go by reservation in a job. If I feel that way, I won't dine with a dalit even if he is a collector. So that is a wrong way of solving social issue.

Also the govt told a 16 year old bright student (from a poor brahmin service class boy ) that he won't be able to study cuz he was born as brahmin.

I am not against Dalits, I am not against reservation. But I am against reservation being used as vote bank instead of their real use.

Tell me, why the reservation has not able to help dalits even after 65 years. Why do only elite dalits make use of reservations (leave the exception cases) ?

So, the caste based reservation is not helping Dalits either. At the same time it is injecting anger in uppercaste kids instead of telling them they are all equal.

You can not discriminate one generation based on what happend 2 generations before. That's not how you make everyone equal.

 

[Garuda]

Was not aware of that. Can you show me some link for that. Thank you.

Good.

So that is another proof that reservation is not the answer as it will just be used by the elite of that caste.

When you make reservation based on financial status, you will remove the elite of all class and caste. The real beneficiary will be the needy.

But it will not happen as our reservation system is not to improve state of dalits but to use them as vote bank.

 

[insaan]

Again, You didn't understand my point.

I didn't say reservation responsible for dalit not entering temple nor I say it recommended two tumbler thing.

But it made me aware that there is this concept which my parents never tought me that there is a lower caste. The govt tought me that there is a lower caste and I am a upper caste.

Also the govt told a 16 year old bright student (from a poor brahmin service class boy ) that he won't be able to study cuz he was born as brahmin.

I am not against Dalits, I am not against reservation. But I am against reservation being used as vote bank instead of their real use.

Tell me, why the reservation has not able to help dalits even after 65 years. Why do only elite dalits make use of reservations (leave the exception cases) ?

So, the caste based reservation is not helping Dalits either. At the same time it is injecting anger in uppercaste kids instead of telling them they are all equal.

You can not discriminate one generation based on what happend 2 generations before. That's not how you make everyone equal.

No. I never accused you of supporting caste-ism. Sorry if that is how I sounded.

I agree that reservation has been used for vote bank politics. Have been saying that since the beginning.

You are against caste based reservation, and I was giving my reasons why I support caste based reservations.

It is not helping dalits because of the creamy layer, who are using the fruits of reservation again and again.

If the creamy layer is excluded, the benefits of reservation will accelerate.

Reservation policy, along with schemes for poor will go a long way in eradicating this social injustice.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Again, You didn't understand my point.

I didn't say reservation responsible for dalit not entering temple nor I say it recommended two tumbler thing.

But it made me aware that there is this concept which my parents never tought me that there is a lower caste. The govt tought me that there is a lower caste and I am a upper caste.

Also social backwardness doesn't go by reservation in a job. If I feel that way, I won't dine with a dalit even if he is a collector. So that is a wrong way of solving social issue.

Also the govt told a 16 year old bright student (from a poor brahmin service class boy ) that he won't be able to study cuz he was born as brahmin.

I am not against Dalits, I am not against reservation. But I am against reservation being used as vote bank instead of their real use.

Tell me, why the reservation has not able to help dalits even after 65 years. Why do only elite dalits make use of reservations (leave the exception cases) ?

So, the caste based reservation is not helping Dalits either. At the same time it is injecting anger in uppercaste kids instead of telling them they are all equal.

You can not discriminate one generation based on what happend 2 generations before. That's not how you make everyone equal.

Exactly man.

I wasn't even aware that I was a Brahmin by birth until I finished my high school. I was applying for Junior college and in the application, it asked me about my caste and I had to write it there

I was further made aware of my caste when I joined Engineering College. There were groups for various castes. The Dalit group used to taunt Brahmin students. I used to site besides a Dalit student and he used to argue with me about the bad things in Hinduism and he preached me virtues of Christianity at every opportunity. He even said that Jesus was mentioned in Vedas, Gita etc

I learnt a lot from that Dalit student about the atrocities that were committed on his forefathers and how Brahmins and Dalits differ from each other both in terms of looks and culture. I was brought up in a liberal family and did not had any clue until then. Then I did some research and found more things. That was the beginning for me not to believe in man made lines and religion.

 

[Garuda]

No. I never accused you of supporting caste-ism. Sorry if that is how I sounded.

I agree that reservation has been used for vote bank politics. Have been saying that since the beginning.

You are against caste based reservation, and I was giving my reasons why I support caste based reservations.

It is not helping dalits because of the creamy layer, who are using the fruits of reservation again and again.

If the creamy layer is excluded, the benefits of reservation will accelerate.

Reservation policy, along with schemes for poor will go a long way in eradicating this social injustice.

How do you remove them ? Will you remove by creating another caste (SC- Creamy ?)

That is why I said it should be based on financial.

A brahmin, a dalit, a muslim, a christian all face the same problem if they are poor. If its a poor child he doesn't pay school fee. As straight as that. No matter which surname he carries.

Do that 20 years and no one will care about surname.

 

[insaan]

Good.

So that is another proof that reservation is not the answer as it will just be used by the elite of that caste.

When you make reservation based on financial status, you will remove the elite of all class and caste. The real beneficiary will be the needy.

But it will not happen as our reservation system is not to improve state of dalits but to use them as vote bank.

Sorry, I checked again. Wiki says there is 15% for SC and 7.5% for ST. It does not add up to 33%.

That is why I was surprised by that number.

But going back to your main point that why it hasnt helped most dalits. Two reasons, the leadership is incompetent/selfish and Dalits are too backward for any progress to be seen.

Still I am happy when I come across genuine cases of Dalits becoming empowered because of the reservation.

Again, I am all for the law of reservation. I dont support how it has been implemented.

 

[Garuda]

Sorry, I checked again. Wiki says there is 15% for SC and 7.5% for ST. It does not add up to 33%.

That is why I was surprised by that number.

But going back to your main point that why it hasnt helped most dalits. Two reasons, the leadership is incompetent/selfish and Dalits are too backward for any progress to be seen.

Still I am happy when I come across genuine cases of Dalits becoming empowered because of the reservation.

Again, I am all for the law of reservation. I dont support how it has been implemented.

Add reservation for OBC (Other backward classes). Actually its 49% and not 33%. So you support reservation even if you donno how much reservation is happening and their details ??

In central government funded higher education institutions, 22.5%[10] of available seats are reserved for Scheduled Caste (SC) and Scheduled Tribe (ST) students (15% for SCs, 7.5% for STs).[10] This reservation percentage has been raised to 49.5%,[10] by including an additional 27% reservation for OBCs. This ratio is followed even in Parliament and all elections where a few constituencies are earmarked for those from certain communities (which keeps rotating as per the Delimitation Commission).

So why do you think we should continue with caste based reservation then? If the leadership is selfish, they will be selfish in future too. So my point is valid that its not working. Change it to something else where the selfish leadership can't take advantage instead of supporting caste based reservation.

 

[insaan]

How do you remove them ? Will you remove by creating another caste (SC- Creamy ?)

That is why I said it should be based on financial.

A brahmin, a dalit, a muslim, a christian all face the same problem if they are poor. If its a poor child he doesn't pay school fee. As straight as that. No matter which surname he carries.

Do that 20 years and no one will care about surname.

You remove it by not allowing the children of those who have used reservation. Or something in that line.

No, not all poor face the same problem. Upper caste face financial difficulties, but Dalits face financial as well as social difficulties.

 

[insaan]

Add reservation for OBC (Other backward classes).

OBC are not Dalits. You had said that Dalits have 33% reservation.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Add reservation for OBC (Other backward classes).

Doesn't Tamilnadu have like 85% Reservation for SC/ST/OBC/Monority........

 

[insaan]

Doesn't Tamilnadu have like 85% Reservation for SC/ST/OBC/Monority........

I am so waiting for the latest census report as it has caste based headcount.

That will clear a lot of misconceptions I or others have. My gut feeling is that dalits and OBCs get less reservation in proportion to their population.

But till I read the census report, I will hold my judgement on that.

 

[Garuda]

You remove it by not allowing the children of those who have used reservation. Or something in that line.

No, not all poor face the same problem. Upper caste face financial difficulties, but Dalits face financial as well as social difficulties.

Can you ? You must be kidding looking at our govt officials efficiency.

Secondly, what is your problem if a poor brahmin boy gets the same treatment as a poor Dalit's ?

Why you want to make sure a brahmin doesn't get any help from state even if he is poor?

 

[mithun_minhas]

I am so waiting for the latest census report as it has caste based headcount.

That will clear a lot of misconceptions I or others have. My gut feeling is that dalits and OBCs get less reservation in proportion to their population.

But till I read the census report, I will hold my judgement on that.

There was an article in Rediff a few days ago where BJP was against caste based count.

I guess they are scared to know that the population of Dalits/OBC's have sky rocketed while the population of Brahmins and other Upper Castes have fallen

Most Dalits are laborers and they tend to have lot more kids than the Upper Caste people.

I wont be surprised if the report says that the Dalits are 40%, BC/OBC are 40% and Upper Caste are 5%( ) ) and minorities are 15%.

Upper Caste do not like to see their numbers getting insignificant as compared to Dalits.

 

[Garuda]

OBC are not Dalits. You had said that Dalits have 33% reservation.

I am talking about total reservations. So Dalit have 22.5% and 27% for OBC. So that makes the entire resercation on caste basis to almost half.

As you agreed it has failed to help dalits (for that matter anyone needy). So what is wrong is changing the approach after trying for 65 years and it failed.

Didn't even Ambedkar asked the system to be demolished after 50 years ? But now it has become a votebank and can not be removed even if it is not useful.

 

[insaan]

Can you ? You must be kidding looking at our govt officials efficiency.

Secondly, what is your problem if a poor brahmin boy gets the same treatment as a poor Dalit's ?

Why you want to make sure a brahmin doesn't get any help from state even if he is poor?

Are you even reading my posts?

I have said that that I support caste based reservation, along with schemes for the poor.

I am an upper caste and was from a poor family. I had to compete with everyone to get into IIT. But after admission, all my fees were waived off. And almost all upper castes who were poor did not have to pay the fees.

I cannot compare myself with a dalit who is poor. Because a dalits caste is used an an abuse. People use abuses like bhangis and chamaars for them. But my identity was never an abuse. I was never ridiculed or socially boycotted. I could share the table and play with all other uppr castes irrespective of them being rich or poor.

This is not true for the poor dalits. Along with financial problems, they have to face sociall backwardness. They are not allowed to share the same table in weddings. At least this is true for villages, and villages are where most of India resides.

Mayawati, despite being a CM, was insulted by an upper caste leader who caller her chamaar ki beti. So even being financially well off doesnt translate into social acceptance.

It is for this social backwardness do I support caste based reservtion. For poors, there is already schemes. Whether they are enough, NO.

But India is a work in progress. Caste based reservation is the right step in that direction.

 

[insaan]

I am talking about total reservations. So Dalit have 22.5% and 27% for OBC. So that makes the entire resercation on caste basis to almost half.

As you agreed it has failed to help dalits (for that matter anyone needy). So what is wrong is changing the approach after trying for 65 years and it failed.

Didn't even Ambedkar asked the system to be demolished after 50 years ? But now it has become a votebank and can not be removed even if it is not useful.

No, you were talking about Dalits having 33%. You stand corrected now.

It has failed to help all dalits not because of reservation, but because it was not implemented properly.

Ambedkar did not have a crystall ball, and he might have assumed that 50 years would be enough to bring social justice. It hasnt, so we need to continue it. With same changes of course. And I have already made myself clear what changes I want.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Are you even reading my posts?

I have said that that I support caste based reservation, along with schemes for the poor.

I am an upper caste and was from a poor family. I had to compete with everyone to get into IIT. But after admission, all my fees were waived off. And almost all upper castes who were poor did not have to pay the fees.

I cannot compare myself with a dalit who is poor. Because a dalits caste is used an an abuse. People use abuses like bhangis and chamaars for them. But my identity was never an abuse. I was never ridiculed or socially boycotted. I could share the table and play with all other uppr castes irrespective of them being rich or poor.

This is not true for the poor dalits. Along with financial problems, they have to face sociall backwardness. They are not allowed to share the same table in weddings. At least this is true for villages, and villages are where most of India resides.

Mayawati, despite being a CM, was insulted by an upper caste leader who caller her chamaar ki beti. So even being financially well off doesnt translate into social acceptance.

It is for this social backwardness do I support caste based reservtion. For poors, there is already schemes. Whether they are enough, NO.

But India is a work in progress. Caste based reservation is the right step in that direction.

Mr.Insaan, i got regularly taunted in my college days by Dalit students. They called me soft, timid Brahmin. They taunted me why I don't have a Shikha (tuft of hair) on my head. Why am I not in a temple doing Poojas...

Those guys do not even spare elderly and women.

It goes both ways.

Both are wrong. You cannot just do Tarafdari only for Dalits.

 

[mithun_minhas]

No, you were talking about Dalits having 33%. You stand corrected now.

It has failed to help all dalits not because of reservation, but because it was not implemented properly.

Ambedkar did not have a crystall ball, and he might have assumed that 50 years would be enough to bring social justice. It hasnt, so we need to continue it. With same changes of course. And I have already made myself clear what changes I want.

Brother if the reservation continues for another 50yrs, you will see disgruntled youth from forward castes take ugly head.

If India wants to stay united, these reservations which only increases the rift between various castes need to go away. A better system to help Dalits should be in place. Giving freebies to certain groups while everyone else is struggling to make it will be dangerous for the society.

 

[insaan]

I, and many Upper caste guys I know of, had an advantage over Dalit students even if we were not financially well off.

We never had to face any social stigma. We were not made to feel that we are lesser humans. People did not abuse us for our caste. We still socialized with other rich upper castes.

That itself is an advantage we had over the Dalit students.

It is fair, that they are compensated with reservation.

 

[Garuda]

No, you were talking about Dalits having 33%. You stand corrected now.

I stand corrected, if that was your argument. Let me know if you need apology for that too.

If you look at my posts, I am talking against reservation for caste and not only Dalit. So hopefully it will now make you feel better.

It has failed to help all dalits not because of reservation, but because it was not implemented properly.

Ambedkar did not have a crystall ball, and he might have assumed that 50 years would be enough to bring social justice. It hasnt, so we need to continue it. With same changes of course. And I have already made myself clear what changes I want.

So if you agree that it is not getting implemented properly for last 65 years then why do you think it should continue ?

Isn't it discrimination with poor brahmins for last 65 years ? How long do you think the revenge should go before you think its enough?

Or the other approach is change the implementation ways and instead of caste do it accross the caste. What is wrong in that?

 

[insaan]

Brother if the reservation continues for another 50yrs, you will see disgruntled youth from forward castes take ugly head.

If India wants to stay united, these reservations which only increases the rift between various castes need to go away. A better system to help Dalits should be in place. Giving freebies to certain groups while everyone else is struggling to make it will be dangerous for the society.

I do fear that too. I am not some anti upper caste. I am against casteism, thats all.

If a OBC makes casteist remarks about a Brahmin, that is wrong too.

I think caste will go, if people start marrying among each other. Reservation does not aim to eradicate caste. It only aims to provide ocial justice. ( It is another matter that it has been used as a political tool).

Dont recall the leader's name, but he said casteism wont go unless people share roti and beti. Meaning if they start eating together and start marrying among castes.

 

[Garuda]

I, and many Upper caste guys I know of, had an advantage over Dalit students even if we were not financially well off.

We never had to face any social stigma. We were not made to feel that we are lesser humans. People did not abuse us for our caste. We still socialized with other rich upper castes.

That itself is an advantage we had over the Dalit students.

It is fair, that they are compensated with reservation.

How ?

Do you think the brahmin who discriminate socially to a dalit will stop discriminating if the dalit has a govt job?

 

[Garuda]

I do fear that too. I am not some anti upper caste. I am against casteism, thats all.

If a OBC makes casteist remarks about a Brahmin, that is wrong too.

I think caste will go, if people start marrying among each other. Reservation does not aim to eradicate caste. It only aims to provide ocial justice. ( It is another matter that it has been used as a political tool).

Dont recall the leader's name, but he said casteism wont go unless people share roti and beti. Meaning if they start eating together and start marrying among castes.

No you are not against casteism.

You want the caste system to continue and compensate one based on his caste. You want one caste to get compensated for another caste's previous generation's mistake.

You are against giving state benefit to everyone based on their need instead of their caste.

So how can you say that you are against casteism. If supporting upper caste is casteism then supporting lower caste while ignoring the issues of upper caste is also casteism.

 

[insaan]

I stand corrected, if that was your argument. Let me know if you need apology for that too.

If you look at my posts, I am talking against reservation for caste and not only Dalit. So hopefully it will now make you feel better.



So if you agree that it is not getting implemented properly for last 65 years then why do you think it should continue ?

Isn't it discrimination with poor brahmins for last 65 years ? How long do you think the revenge should go before you think its enough?

Or the other approach is change the implementation ways and instead of caste do it accross the caste. What is wrong in that?

It is not a revenge. Poor brahmins have schemes which help the poor. Just that Dalits are given an extra helping hand.

Just think about it. How come Brahmins being less than 4% still dominate the media, and politics. Look at the high command of Congress and BJP. Where are the Dalits? If it was about revenge, how come we still see Brahmins over represented.

If there are laws against rape, and they dont help eradicate rape full, does it meanwe should do away with those laws itself? That is what you are saying.

And now I feel I am just repeating myself...

PS: Dont need an apology, but then saw you doing the same to some other posters. SO insisted on that irrelevant point.

 

[insaan]

How ?

Do you think the brahmin who discriminate socially to a dalit will stop discriminating if the dalit has a govt job?

They might still discriminate, but the Dalit will be in a better position to fight back.

In north India, Brahmins say that these dalits, took lutiya (drinking water from same vessel), then khatiya (sharing tables) and now they want to take our bitiya ( wanting to marry in their caste).

 

[insaan]

No you are not against casteism.

You want the caste system to continue and compensate one based on his caste. You want one caste to get compensated for another caste's previous generation's mistake.

You are against giving state benefit to everyone based on their need instead of their caste.

So how can you say that you are against casteism. If supporting upper caste is casteism then supporting lower caste while ignoring the issues of upper caste is also casteism.

Again not my job to convince you.

When it comes to jobs and education, hey we are all against casteism.

When it comes to marriage and social intercation, hey we will only marry and mingle with our caste.

I had made it clear earlier that I was not targeting you as an individual. It was a debate of ideas vs ideas.

If you want to make it person vs person, sorry, I will not entertain you.

 

[insaan]

PS: I am a Brahmin myself. But I thought that is irrelevant.

 

[Garuda]

It is not a revenge. Poor brahmins have schemes which help the poor. Just that Dalits are given an extra helping hand.

Which one for education or job for poor Brahmin?

Just think about it. How come Brahmins being less than 4% still dominate the media, and politics. Look at the high command of Congress and BJP. Where are the Dalits? If it was about revenge, how come we still see Brahmins over represented.

Dude, after 65 years of reservation you can not say that the brahmin who has a job is not deserving. He may have worked hard to get into a good school.

I am not here cuz I was a brahmin but I worked my a$$ off for 18 hours a day. So its really disrespecting when someone like you try to be socialist and say see Brahmins are in IT, media and this that.

And, no, my family had no money to support my study before you say that you had resources. I worked till 11 in the night in Delhi to fund my education.

If there are laws against rape, and they dont help eradicate rape full, does it meanwe should do away with those laws itself? That is what you are saying.

Are you real ??

If the law is not working then you don't remove the law but you change it to something which will work.

You just don't carry on with something which is not working.
And now I feel I am just repeating myself...

PS: Dont need an apology, but then saw you doing the same to some other posters. SO insisted on that irrelevant point.

May be you need to see if the point of the poster was relevant or not. I am ready to apologize if you misunderstood as I was not trying to lie the number.

 

[Garuda]

Again not my job to convince you.

When it comes to jobs and education, hey we are all against casteism.

When it comes to marriage and social intercation, hey we will only marry and mingle with our caste.

I had made it clear earlier that I was not targeting you as an individual. It was a debate of ideas vs ideas.

If you want to make it person vs person, sorry, I will not entertain you.

For your kind information, I am a brahmin north Indian but married to a dalit from South India.

So I am not against Dalit or reservation as I also feel everyone should be equal. But the way to make them equal is not reservation based on caste.

You continue this system for another 100 years and still you will have majority dalits (+OBCs) still poor.

 

[Garuda]

They might still discriminate, but the Dalit will be in a better position to fight back.

Fight back for what ? Force him to dine with him ?

You do not remove social injustice by fight back. By this you are creating divide. You are making each caste feel that someone is being treated differently.

So we are not all equal. Thats not you remove social discrimination.

In north India, Brahmins say that these dalits, took lutiya (drinking water from same vessel), then khatiya (sharing tables) and now they want to take our bitiya ( wanting to marry in their caste).

And it will be removed by giving jobs to dalits and not to uppercaste kids ?

So now the upper caste feel very affectionate towards dalit and run and marry a dalit ?

Or do you think it will create a disgruntled uppercaste kid who feel discriminated towards dalits like these dalits felt in previous generations ?


Solution to removing discrimination for one is not to start discriminating with other.

 

[insaan]

For your kind information, I am a brahmin north Indian but married to a dalit from South India.

So I am not against Dalit or reservation as I also feel everyone should be equal. But the way to make them equal is not reservation based on caste.

You continue this system for another 100 years and still you will have majority dalits (+OBCs) still poor.

It was never about you or me!

I am just debating ideas vs ideas. You representing the voice which I hear often from fellow upper castes, and I am differing.

Dont have the luxury of seeing the future. Even Ambedkar failed. I have already said the changes I want is to remove the creamy layer from the benefits.

It is there for OBCs I think. One of my OBC friend has both of his parents as doctors, hence he was denied admission in a prestigious college based on quota. And that is fair, but the govt must define the creamy layer proerly. Right now it is like 8 lakhs per annum or above, which I think is too high.

About the schemes for poor which include the upper caste: I have used one scheme myself, in which I did not have to pay any tuition fee in college.

Plus there are subsidized govt schools for all. It is another matter that they are not of good quality.

And I have already mentioned how a poor upper caste still has an advantage over a poor dalit.

 

[insaan]

Fight back for what ? Force him to dine with him ?

You do not remove social injustice by fight back. By this you are creating divide. You are making each caste feel that someone is being treated differently.

So we are not all equal. Thats not you remove social discrimination.



And it will be removed by giving jobs to dalits and not to uppercaste kids ?

So now the upper caste feel very affectionate towards dalit and run and marry a dalit ?

Or do you think it will create a disgruntled uppercaste kid who feel discriminated towards dalits like these dalits felt in previous generations ?


Solution to removing discrimination for one is not to start discriminating with other.

I have already said that reservation is not to eradicate caste system. Something that you have kept repeating in your posts.

Reservation is to provide social justice for historically oppressed sections.

 

[Ambi]

Those who are below poverty line should get the benefit of reservation

 

[Garuda]

It was never about you or me!

You mentioned you are Brahmin and you are not against casteism. So if it was not about you and me then you don't need to mention them.

I am just debating ideas vs ideas. You representing the voice which I hear often from fellow upper castes, and I am differing.

Dont have the luxury of seeing the future. Even Ambedkar failed. I have already said the changes I want is to remove the creamy layer from the benefits.

But you have the luxury of looking at the recent past 65 years and you can clearly see that it didn't work (for whatever reason).

So it was a good enough time to try and if it didn't work then we really need to rethink the approach.

I am saying reservation is needed but apply it to all deserving people instead of few castes.

It is there for OBCs I think. One of my OBC friend has both of his parents as doctors, hence he was denied admission in a prestigious college based on quota. And that is fair, but the govt must define the creamy layer proerly. Right now it is like 8 lakhs per annum or above, which I think is too high.

Here you go. So you accept that it should be financial.

So if you think creamy layers of reservation caste should be removed, what is wrong in adding poor upper castes to get benefit from education ?

About the schemes for poor which include the upper caste: I have used one scheme myself, in which I did not have to pay any tuition fee in college.

Will you agree if that much is provided to dalits ?

If a poor brahmin can make his life from that much help why can't others?

Plus there are subsidized govt schools for all. It is another matter that they are not of good quality.

So nothing major for a poor brahmin or upper caste.

And I have already mentioned how a poor upper caste still has an advantage over a poor dalit.

How in education and jobs? Can you please explain.

 

[mithun_minhas]

I do fear that too. I am not some anti upper caste. I am against casteism, thats all.

If a OBC makes casteist remarks about a Brahmin, that is wrong too.

I think caste will go, if people start marrying among each other. Reservation does not aim to eradicate caste. It only aims to provide ocial justice. ( It is another matter that it has been used as a political tool).

Dont recall the leader's name, but he said casteism wont go unless people share roti and beti. Meaning if they start eating together and start marrying among castes.

Coming to that point........

The image of Dalit in India needs to change for it to happen.

A stereotypical Dalit is a short, dark skinned individual. Our country is color biased. Only fair skinned people or people with Caucasian features are considered desirable. Most people(forget parents) cannot digest the fact that a Dalit boy is marrying a fair skinned Upper Caste girl.

A Brahmin or Jatt or Khatri or Agarwal can never think of marrying a Dalit.

Even in Christians, the Upper Caste converts or the Portugese mixed Christians in Goa cannot think of marrying a Dalit Christian.

Don't know how the situation in Pakistan is.. Will a Pathan or a Rajput Muslim marry a Dalit Muslim? If not, then the situation is same in both countries.

 

[MenInG]

In a shocking incident of caste-based violence in Uttar Pradesh's Raebareli, a minor boy from the Dalit community was assaulted and made to lick the feet of one of the accused.

A 2 min 30-second video viral on social media shows the boy sitting on the ground with his hands on his ears - a sign of punishment. The accused can be sitting on motorcycles, some of them laughing as the victim shakes in fear on the ground. One of the accused asks the victim the spell the name 'Thakur' - an upper caste and also abuses him. "Will you make such a mistake again?" another accused asks the victim.

Another video appears to show the men accusing the victim of selling Marijuana, a charge the victim appears to accept under duress.

Police arrested seven people after a video of the assault went viral. The police say the incident took place on April 10 and the arrests were made after a written complaint by the victim. Some of the accused in the case are from so-called upper castes.

"The aggrieved student had given a complaint at the police station after which those who assaulted him have been booked by the UP police under relevant sections of the law. The same video is now viral on social media," Ashok Singh, a senior police official said in a statement

The victim is a class 10 student and lives with his widowed mother. Initial reports suggested that the victim's mother had worked in the fields of some of the accused and the boy had been asking them for money for the said work. But at the home of the victim, his sisters denied this. "It's not true. In fact, it is still not clear why my brother was assaulted. He told us that he asked the attackers why they were beating him and got no convincing answer," one of the sisters, a 19-year-old, said.

"What happened to my brother, should not happen to anyone else. The accused should get the strictest possible punishment," the other sister, 24, told NDTV.

 

[ex-q-zit]

Tank Cleaned With Cow Urine In Karnataka After Dalit Woman Drinks Water

Bengaluru: So-called upper caste people in a Karnataka village drained a water tank and 'purified' it with cow urine after a Dalit woman allegedly drank water from its tap.

On November 18, a woman belonging to a Scheduled Caste, who was attending a marriage function at the Heggotara village in Karnataka's Chamarajanagar district, drank water from a drinking water tank in an area where people from so-called upper castes live. Outraged, they released all the water from the tank and cleaned it with gau mutra (cow urine), which is considered to be holy by some.

"The water tank was cleaned, but I can't confirm if it was with gau mutra," IE Basvaraj, the local jurisdictional Tahseeldar told NDTV, adding that no one had seen the woman drinking water from the tank, and she hasn't been traced so far.

"We are trying to identify and locate her. Once it happens, we will file a case (of discrimination)," Mr Basvraj said.

There are several tanks in the village with written messages that everyone can drink water from there.

The local authorities took several villagers from the Dalit and Other Backward Classes (OBC) communities to all the tanks and made them drink water.

The Tahseeldar will now file a comprehensive report to the District Collector for further action, he said.

NDTV

 

[Justcrazy]

This idiot is posting as if no caste system exists in Muslims in India. Just quoting from wikipedia:


Like castes elsewhere in Islamic world, Muslims in India have a caste system. Ashrafs are presumed to have a superior status,[92][93] while the Ajlafs have a lower status. The Arzal caste among Muslims was regarded as the equivalent of untouchables, by anti-caste activists like Ambedkar, and by the colonial British ethnographer Herbert Risley who claimed that 56 percent of Muslims in British India were of a caste equivalent in status as the Hindu Shudras and Untouchables.[94][95][96] In the Bengal region of India, some Muslims stratify their society according to 'Quoms.'[97] Some scholars have asserted that the Muslim "castes" are not as acute in their discrimination as those of the Hindus,[98] while other scholars argue that the social evils in South Asian Muslim society were worse than those seen in Hindu society.[94][96]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#Muslims

There is nothing called caste system in Islam. Kindly get some knowledge before making such sweeping statements.

Can you show me where does Quran or hadeeth speak about caste system , or one caste superior to another ?

Prophet had said that No arab has superiority over non arab and vice versa.

Caste system roots in hinduism is in the scriptures.

 

[PakLFC]

India will always be a caste ridden society. Brahmins, Kshatriya's, Vaishya's, Sudra's and the Dalits at the bottom of the list are everyone whipping community. It is not possible to change this century upon century old practice. Brahmin's off course are the self chosen people on top of the ladder in every profession. It s the job of other's to kiss their feet so to be accepted by society. A Brahmin once told me that no one can convert to Brahminism....you are either born in to this caste or not.

 

[Champ_Pal]

India will always be a caste ridden society. Brahmins, Kshatriya's, Vaishya's, Sudra's and the Dalits at the bottom of the list are everyone whipping community. It is not possible to change this century upon century old practice. Brahmin's off course are the self chosen people on top of the ladder in every profession. It s the job of other's to kiss their feet so to be accepted by society. A Brahmin once told me that no one can convert to Brahminism....you are either born in to this caste or not.

No one is whipping Dalits barring a few incidents. There are laws against Dalit abuse. You cannot use the word ****** as it is a derogatory word in public.

Brahmins are some of the poorest communities in India. All of the political power is with Shudras for over 50 yrs now.

You have no clue about the ground reality in India. The so called Savarna or Upper Caste form less than 15% of the population. You are only parroting what is written in western books.

 

[Champ_Pal]

There is nothing called caste system in Islam. Kindly get some knowledge before making such sweeping statements.

Can you show me where does Quran or hadeeth speak about caste system , or one caste superior to another ?

Prophet had said that No arab has superiority over non arab and vice versa.

Caste system roots in hinduism is in the scriptures.

You have sects in Islam and each sect considers others kufr. That is enough to kill each other.

 

[PakLFC]

No one is whipping Dalits barring a few incidents. There are laws against Dalit abuse. You cannot use the word ****** as it is a derogatory word in public.

Brahmins are some of the poorest communities in India. All of the political power is with Shudras for over 50 yrs now.

You have no clue about the ground reality in India. The so called Savarna or Upper Caste form less than 15% of the population. You are only parroting what is written in western books.

Well ya know India has a massive population but generally and historically Dalit's are at the bottom of the ladder. Equally you too will be clueless as to how many are discriminated against in India every day. How much off India have you seen just because you are Indian doesn't make you any authority.

I am telling you that most people in India at the bottom of the bread basket are non Brahmins. So the west is right when it praises India but wrong when it exposes it. That is the problem with Indian people.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Well ya know India has a massive population but generally and historically Dalit's are at the bottom of the ladder. Equally you too will be clueless as to how many are discriminated against in India every day. How much off India have you seen just because you are Indian doesn't make you any authority.

I am telling you that most people in India at the bottom of the bread basket are non Brahmins. So the west is right when it praises India but wrong when it exposes it. That is the problem with Indian people.

Historically many communities faced hardships in India. Not just Dalits. I am talking about the past decade or so. Things have changed drastically in India. The upper caste does not have any political presence. They have been kicked to the curb in South India. Its all about Shudra and OBC power. The decide the elections and almost all politicians are from those communities.

For example, below is the caste wise politicians in Andhra Pradesh General Assembly

https://twitter.com/urs_ms/status/1132909670513799168?s=20&t=u9wRLvubIHFD09SledFNFA

AP Assembly 2019
MLAs caste wise..

Reddy - 50 (Shudra)
Kaapu & Balija - 24&2 (Shudra)
Kamma - 17 (Shudra)
T Kaapu - 7 (Shudra)
K velama - 5 (Shudra)
Yadava -6 (Shudra)
S Balija - 4 (Shudra)
Vysyas -4 (Upper Caste)
Muslims -4 (Minority)
Raju - 4 (Upper Caste)
Matysakara - 3 (SC)
Velama - 2 (Shudra)
Bramins -2 (Upper Caste)
Kalinga -2 (Shudra)
Gavara -1 (Shudra)
Boya/Lingayath - 1 (Shudra)
Rajaka - 1 (Shudra)
SC - 29 (SC)
ST - 7 (ST)

As you can see, out of 173 Members of Legislative Assembly, only 10 belong to Upper Caste. The oppressive Brahmins have 2 members . Brahmins neither have the money power nor the numbers to have any effect on the society. Its the same for Vysyas and Rajus too. Vysysas and Kshtriyas do better than Brahmins money wise.

The times of Upper caste is over for a while now. Its Shudra time. It has been the case since 1960's. They and Scheduled Castes tussle for political power. But Shudra's have the money and they will not let Dalits overtake them.

 

[Justcrazy]

You have sects in Islam and each sect considers others kufr. That is enough to kill each other.

Firstly Quran clearly says not to make sects. Thus sects are NOT part of Islamic scriptures. The same cannot be said about Hinduism. It is something ingrained.

Secondly , sect and caste are two different terms. You are an educated person , and I do not think you need further explaination on the difference .

In Hinduism also you will find different sects , but caste system is different.

If you still do not get difference I will tell you difference.

 

[Oxfordchamp]

Historically many communities faced hardships in India. Not just Dalits. I am talking about the past decade or so. Things have changed drastically in India. The upper caste does not have any political presence. They have been kicked to the curb in South India. Its all about Shudra and OBC power. The decide the elections and almost all politicians are from those communities.

For example, below is the caste wise politicians in Andhra Pradesh General Assembly

https://twitter.com/urs_ms/status/1132909670513799168?s=20&t=u9wRLvubIHFD09SledFNFA

AP Assembly 2019
MLAs caste wise..

Reddy - 50 (Shudra)
Kaapu & Balija - 24&2 (Shudra)
Kamma - 17 (Shudra)
T Kaapu - 7 (Shudra)
K velama - 5 (Shudra)
Yadava -6 (Shudra)
S Balija - 4 (Shudra)
Vysyas -4 (Upper Caste)
Muslims -4 (Minority)
Raju - 4 (Upper Caste)
Matysakara - 3 (SC)
Velama - 2 (Shudra)
Bramins -2 (Upper Caste)
Kalinga -2 (Shudra)
Gavara -1 (Shudra)
Boya/Lingayath - 1 (Shudra)
Rajaka - 1 (Shudra)
SC - 29 (SC)
ST - 7 (ST)

As you can see, out of 173 Members of Legislative Assembly, only 10 belong to Upper Caste. The oppressive Brahmins have 2 members . Brahmins neither have the money power nor the numbers to have any effect on the society. Its the same for Vysyas and Rajus too. Vysysas and Kshtriyas do better than Brahmins money wise.

The times of Upper caste is over for a while now. Its Shudra time. It has been the case since 1960's. They and Scheduled Castes tussle for political power. But Shudra's have the money and they will not let Dalits overtake them.

What a dumb post ..From when are Reddys Kammas Velamas and others considered as Shudras...All these castes are considered upper castes ...pls stop posting nonsense and educate yourself...

 

[Champ_Pal]

What a dumb post ..From when are Reddys Kammas Velamas and others considered as Shudras...All these castes are considered upper castes ...pls stop posting nonsense and educate yourself...

They are forward castes and they are Shudra. I cannot educate you if do not understand the difference between Forward and Upper Castes. Reddys, Kammas and Velamas are Shudra since the beginning. They tried to be considered kshatriyas as they forged many kingdoms in South India.

Before you run your mouth, do a bit of research.

 

[ex-q-zit]

India will always be a caste ridden society. Brahmins, Kshatriya's, Vaishya's, Sudra's and the Dalits at the bottom of the list are everyone whipping community. It is not possible to change this century upon century old practice. Brahmin's off course are the self chosen people on top of the ladder in every profession. It s the job of other's to kiss their feet so to be accepted by society. A Brahmin once told me that no one can convert to Brahminism....you are either born in to this caste or not.

Do you have any knowledge about the caste system of India? India is not a homogenous society. In north india Brahmins and Kshtriyas are the dominant castes.

The above incident happened in South. In South India the dominant castes are Reddy, Kamma, Gowda, mudaliar, chettiyar etc. All these are Shudra castes. All prominent film personalities politicians and rich people are from these castes. Brahmins or Kshtriyas or Vaishyas dont have much power. Having said that dalits are looked down by Shudras too. Most brahmins are middle class or upper middle class.

Not just Brahmins you cannot convert to hinduism on a whole. Unlike islam or Christianity which has a procedure and rules to convert hinduism has no such thing. But unlike the abrahamic religions hinduism is not rigid and allows person of any religion to pray to any god. Hence every religion in the world found sheltor in India apart from the indegenous religions.

 

[Stewie]

Oh yeah....Dalit's and Muslims are prosecuted daily in thousands all over India. Worst part is they are discriminated every day, they are not allowed to move freely on roads and have to wear a badge which shows if the person is dalit or muslim. Mass murders are common all over India and press/judiciary which are owned by Hindu's all keep quiet.

Really sad situation....It is like living in hell.

Happy....now get back to work.

Sounds like thats how Dalits and Muslims are treated in India. lol

 

[Stewie]

Tank Cleaned With Cow Urine In Karnataka After Dalit Woman Drinks Water

Bengaluru: So-called upper caste people in a Karnataka village drained a water tank and 'purified' it with cow urine after a Dalit woman allegedly drank water from its tap.

On November 18, a woman belonging to a Scheduled Caste, who was attending a marriage function at the Heggotara village in Karnataka's Chamarajanagar district, drank water from a drinking water tank in an area where people from so-called upper castes live. Outraged, they released all the water from the tank and cleaned it with gau mutra (cow urine), which is considered to be holy by some.

"The water tank was cleaned, but I can't confirm if it was with gau mutra," IE Basvaraj, the local jurisdictional Tahseeldar told NDTV, adding that no one had seen the woman drinking water from the tank, and she hasn't been traced so far.

"We are trying to identify and locate her. Once it happens, we will file a case (of discrimination)," Mr Basvraj said.

There are several tanks in the village with written messages that everyone can drink water from there.

The local authorities took several villagers from the Dalit and Other Backward Classes (OBC) communities to all the tanks and made them drink water.

The Tahseeldar will now file a comprehensive report to the District Collector for further action, he said.

NDTV

Is the consumption of cow urine fairly common for all hindus? How often are they supposed to drink it?

 

[Stewie]

Do you have any knowledge about the caste system of India? India is not a homogenous society. In north india Brahmins and Kshtriyas are the dominant castes.

The above incident happened in South. In South India the dominant castes are Reddy, Kamma, Gowda, mudaliar, chettiyar etc. All these are Shudra castes. All prominent film personalities politicians and rich people are from these castes. Brahmins or Kshtriyas or Vaishyas dont have much power. Having said that dalits are looked down by Shudras too. Most brahmins are middle class or upper middle class.

Not just Brahmins you cannot convert to hinduism on a whole. Unlike islam or Christianity which has a procedure and rules to convert hinduism has no such thing. But unlike the abrahamic religions hinduism is not rigid and allows person of any religion to pray to any god. Hence every religion in the world found sheltor in India apart from the indegenous religions.

So a question for you, then. This by the way is very interesting, thank you for the explanation.

If I, a born Muslim, for some reason decide to convert to Hinduism, how will I be treated as in the Hindu society from a caste point of view? What caste will I be? Or does caste have to do with your family? So if I was born into a Muslim rajput family, how will I be treated? I am not sure if I understand hindu caste system and how it translates to some of what us in Pakistan observe as castes.

Thanks in advance for your explanation.

 

[Champ_Pal]

So a question for you, then. This by the way is very interesting, thank you for the explanation.

If I, a born Muslim, for some reason decide to convert to Hinduism, how will I be treated as in the Hindu society from a caste point of view? What caste will I be? Or does caste have to do with your family? So if I was born into a Muslim rajput family, how will I be treated? I am not sure if I understand hindu caste system and how it translates to some of what us in Pakistan observe as castes.

Thanks in advance for your explanation.

You will be a Hindu without a caste. You can put caste no bar or no caste in brackets. There are many Hindus like that who do not identify with any caste. Having a caste is compulsory in olden days. Probably until 80's and 90's. Many have rebelled against it and do not identify with any caste now.

 

[ex-q-zit]

What a dumb post ..From when are Reddys Kammas Velamas and others considered as Shudras...All these castes are considered upper castes ...pls stop posting nonsense and educate yourself...

He is correct. Its you who needs to educte yourself. I am a Kamma myself. We like reddys and velamas are dominant castes socially but not upper castes. Upper castes are Brahmins, Kshtriyas and Vaishyas. Just because these castes are powerful doesn't make them upper castes. Shudras were never considered upper castes.

 

[ex-q-zit]

So a question for you, then. This by the way is very interesting, thank you for the explanation.

If I, a born Muslim, for some reason decide to convert to Hinduism, how will I be treated as in the Hindu society from a caste point of view? What caste will I be? Or does caste have to do with your family? So if I was born into a Muslim rajput family, how will I be treated? I am not sure if I understand hindu caste system and how it translates to some of what us in Pakistan observe as castes.

Thanks in advance for your explanation.

Hinduism is complicated as within each caste there are gotras. You cannot marry within your gotras. If you knew which caste you were from (and teh gotra though this is not mandatory) you can just start praying to hindu gods and practice the religion. As I said there is no process of converting to hindusim ritually. Even if you pray to hindu gods without converting no one will object as it doesn't have concept of worshipping only one god. In Andhra there are several muslims who worship lord balaji as they belive lord balaji married bibi nanchari who was a muslim.

Now coming to how will hindus treat a muslim who has become hindu. Its wouldn't be any different from when how he was teated when he was a muslim. If you are rich you will have teh same kind of influence in society whereas if you are poor you will find same issues.

Not just muslim rajputs there are many who have converted to christianity in south india but still carry there hindu caste surname like reddy, chowdary. They are treated the same just like when they were hindu.

Unfortunately dalits too are treated the same after converting to christianity or islam. In India dalit muslims are called pasmanda msulims and discriminated against by other muslims. This completely demolishes the key tenets of islam but sadly its the truth. Even dalit sikhs are discriminated while sikhism too doesn't recognise castes.

Hope I didn't confuse you further regrading teh complexity of castes in India.

By teh way if you wnat to know about about muslim to hindu converst google jitendra tyagi you will find a recent convert who changed his name from syed waseem rizvi to jitendra tyagi.

 

[ex-q-zit]

Is the consumption of cow urine fairly common for all hindus? How often are they supposed to drink it?

No one drinks it and there is no compulsions in hinduism in anything. The only way it is consumed is when a very small quantity of it is mixed in the holy water (theerth) that is given in temples. Those who did this cleansing of teh water tank are just fools.

Though I am born as a hindu and I identify as a hindu I dont believe in teh concept of God. Thats the best part of Hinduism as its not considered blasphemous. The reason I identify as hindu because i see hinduism as a way of life rather than a religion.

 

[Stewie]

Hinduism is complicated as within each caste there are gotras. You cannot marry within your gotras. If you knew which caste you were from (and teh gotra though this is not mandatory) you can just start praying to hindu gods and practice the religion. As I said there is no process of converting to hindusim ritually. Even if you pray to hindu gods without converting no one will object as it doesn't have concept of worshipping only one god. In Andhra there are several muslims who worship lord balaji as they belive lord balaji married bibi nanchari who was a muslim.

Now coming to how will hindus treat a muslim who has become hindu. Its wouldn't be any different from when how he was teated when he was a muslim. If you are rich you will have teh same kind of influence in society whereas if you are poor you will find same issues.

Not just muslim rajputs there are many who have converted to christianity in south india but still carry there hindu caste surname like reddy, chowdary. They are treated the same just like when they were hindu.

Unfortunately dalits too are treated the same after converting to christianity or islam. In India dalit muslims are called pasmanda msulims and discriminated against by other muslims. This completely demolishes the key tenets of islam but sadly its the truth. Even dalit sikhs are discriminated while sikhism too doesn't recognise castes.

Hope I didn't confuse you further regrading teh complexity of castes in India.

By teh way if you wnat to know about about muslim to hindu converst google jitendra tyagi you will find a recent convert who changed his name from syed waseem rizvi to jitendra tyagi.

Thank you, [MENTION=143985]ex-q-zit[/MENTION], [MENTION=156243]Champ_Pal[/MENTION],
I guess my question was more from a societal POV than legal and from that angle, Ex-q-zit's answer made more sense. So if I am to get my kids married in the society, most ppeople who ask for caste for a match, would probably shun me, is my take. I would only be accepted in the circles where they dont pay attention to caste.

Now, I would request your attention towards the bolded parts of your post.
1) By definition, someone who prays to anyone other than Allah is not a Muslim, so that should handle the first part. They can claim to be Muslims, but they are not. Of course, I do not have any legal/moral/religious authority to make that jdugment, but I know enough about Islam and as a Muslim to hold that opinion of someone. Hopefully, that is not taken as a slight.

2) Indeed, it is very sad because Rasool Allah (saw) himself said that no Arab holds any superiority over a non-Arab or vice versa, unless its based on piety. This establishes the fact your race, color, caste, language you speak, etc, has no bearing in your stature in the eyes of God except for piety. Any Muslims engaged in such behavior are in direction violation of our credo

 

[Stewie]

No one drinks it and there is no compulsions in hinduism in anything. The only way it is consumed is when a very small quantity of it is mixed in the holy water (theerth) that is given in temples. Those who did this cleansing of teh water tank are just fools.

Though I am born as a hindu and I identify as a hindu I dont believe in teh concept of God. Thats the best part of Hinduism as its not considered blasphemous. The reason I identify as hindu because i see hinduism as a way of life rather than a religion.

Very interesting view, because Muslims also believe and claim Islam to be a way of life and not just a religion but it has to be done a certain way so it is not as flexible or loosely defined as you may want. I think Indians might be well familiar with that concept that Muslims do not treat Islam just as a set of rules to pray and worship. It is about how a life is meant to be liived starting from appearance, behavior, how you treat your fellow man, to how you live your life and the goals you set yourself in this life and for afterlife.

 

[ex-q-zit]

Thank you, [MENTION=143985]ex-q-zit[/MENTION], [MENTION=156243]Champ_Pal[/MENTION],
I guess my question was more from a societal POV than legal and from that angle, Ex-q-zit's answer made more sense. So if I am to get my kids married in the society, most ppeople who ask for caste for a match, would probably shun me, is my take. I would only be accepted in the circles where they dont pay attention to caste.

Now, I would request your attention towards the bolded parts of your post.
1) By definition, someone who prays to anyone other than Allah is not a Muslim, so that should handle the first part. They can claim to be Muslims, but they are not. Of course, I do not have any legal/moral/religious authority to make that jdugment, but I know enough about Islam and as a Muslim to hold that opinion of someone. Hopefully, that is not taken as a slight.

2) Indeed, it is very sad because Rasool Allah (saw) himself said that no Arab holds any superiority over a non-Arab or vice versa, unless its based on piety. This establishes the fact your race, color, caste, language you speak, etc, has no bearing in your stature in the eyes of God except for piety. Any Muslims engaged in such behavior are in direction violation of our credo

@bold: things are changing now. In my extended family I have cousins who have married outside the caste and the weddings were accepted by the parents. Though inter-religion marriages are still frowned upon. But 20 years down the line inter-caste and inter-faith marriages will be the norm. As parents will be from my generation.

 

[Stewie]

@bold: things are changing now. In my extended family I have cousins who have married outside the caste and the weddings were accepted by the parents. Though inter-religion marriages are still frowned upon. But 20 years down the line inter-caste and inter-faith marriages will be the norm. As parents will be from my generation.

so I am just curious, why is then that in hundreds of years, the Dalits plight has not changed? What makes you think that would all change in 20 years?

I guess I am not very informed on Dalits to begin with so, let us take a step back. What are they from a faith POV? Are they not considered hindus? Or are they considered low class hindus?

I believe this issue is tlaked about so much everywhere that there is truth to it and it has not completely subsided in all these years. So while I may agree with you when it comes to the more educated urban Indians, I find it hard to believe that in 20 years time, the Indian society will see too much of an all encompassing change in this respect. I think caste based discrimination will continue, as it does in some ways in Pakistan as well.

 

[PakLFC]

Do you have any knowledge about the caste system of India? India is not a homogenous society. In north india Brahmins and Kshtriyas are the dominant castes.

The above incident happened in South. In South India the dominant castes are Reddy, Kamma, Gowda, mudaliar, chettiyar etc. All these are Shudra castes. All prominent film personalities politicians and rich people are from these castes. Brahmins or Kshtriyas or Vaishyas dont have much power. Having said that dalits are looked down by Shudras too. Most brahmins are middle class or upper middle class.

Not just Brahmins you cannot convert to hinduism on a whole. Unlike islam or Christianity which has a procedure and rules to convert hinduism has no such thing. But unlike the abrahamic religions hinduism is not rigid and allows person of any religion to pray to any god. Hence every religion in the world found sheltor in India apart from the indegenous religions.

Yes I have good knowledge through a good many Indian's i know from many backgrounds. I did not say that other castes do not discriminate rather the Brahmins consider themselves as the Godheads of Hinduism. The five castes are like a ladder where the one below is considered as being the weaker. I also know that every caste has many sub groups as well. No! Most prominent Bollywood actors have Muslim names nowadays where as the Kapoor's were Brahmins I believe.

Yes you can convert to Hinduism if you don't bother asking any high priests permission or ignore a conversion ceremony. Hollywood actress Julia Roberts is a devout Hindu which obviously you are oblivious about. Another thing is that if conversion is not a part of Hinduism then what's with this "ghar wapsi" nonsense doing our heads in? As Gandhi said Hinduism is more of a culture then religious belief which is exactly what the RSS preach that you can be Muslim yet culturally Hindu too! I don't know how this works! I am afraid today most non Hindu's in India are living under the gun all the time.

 

[PakLFC]

Historically many communities faced hardships in India. Not just Dalits. I am talking about the past decade or so. Things have changed drastically in India. The upper caste does not have any political presence. They have been kicked to the curb in South India. Its all about Shudra and OBC power. The decide the elections and almost all politicians are from those communities.

For example, below is the caste wise politicians in Andhra Pradesh General Assembly

https://twitter.com/urs_ms/status/1132909670513799168?s=20&t=u9wRLvubIHFD09SledFNFA

AP Assembly 2019
MLAs caste wise..

Reddy - 50 (Shudra)
Kaapu & Balija - 24&2 (Shudra)
Kamma - 17 (Shudra)
T Kaapu - 7 (Shudra)
K velama - 5 (Shudra)
Yadava -6 (Shudra)
S Balija - 4 (Shudra)
Vysyas -4 (Upper Caste)
Muslims -4 (Minority)
Raju - 4 (Upper Caste)
Matysakara - 3 (SC)
Velama - 2 (Shudra)
Bramins -2 (Upper Caste)
Kalinga -2 (Shudra)
Gavara -1 (Shudra)
Boya/Lingayath - 1 (Shudra)
Rajaka - 1 (Shudra)
SC - 29 (SC)
ST - 7 (ST)

As you can see, out of 173 Members of Legislative Assembly, only 10 belong to Upper Caste. The oppressive Brahmins have 2 members . Brahmins neither have the money power nor the numbers to have any effect on the society. Its the same for Vysyas and Rajus too. Vysysas and Kshtriyas do better than Brahmins money wise.

The times of Upper caste is over for a while now. Its Shudra time. It has been the case since 1960's. They and Scheduled Castes tussle for political power. But Shudra's have the money and they will not let Dalits overtake them.

Ya know India is one country that hides everything from the world through it's propoganda. It tells that all is great in IoK when independent repoorts tell a very different story. As for statistics Navjot Singh Sidhu it best with his "miniskirts" comments! Similarly your assembly does not paint the overall picture of your society either. I will say that most religious discrimination occurs in remote villages where no one keeps any record of such happenings. One wouldn't expect co-operative India to be discriminating so openly would mean the government condones it.

From my experience the many asylum seekers I have met are mostly from North India. They tell me they ended up wherever they did due to the various forms of discrimination they faced back home. Why do you people think India is a first world country?

 

[ex-q-zit]

Very interesting view, because Muslims also believe and claim Islam to be a way of life and not just a religion but it has to be done a certain way so it is not as flexible or loosely defined as you may want. I think Indians might be well familiar with that concept that Muslims do not treat Islam just as a set of rules to pray and worship. It is about how a life is meant to be liived starting from appearance, behavior, how you treat your fellow man, to how you live your life and the goals you set yourself in this life and for afterlife.

I completely agree with you, Islam is a way of life too though too rigid for my liking.

I look at hinduism as a way of life in a different way. Its not just about appearance or behaviour. It give Yoga which is a form of excercise, Ayurveda which is medicine to maintain our health. Then it not only tries to protect mankind but also most importantly nature. Our ancestors were much much intelligent and had more foresight than us. Hence they put a theory that god is omnipresent thereby saying god/godess is in rivers, animals, forests, sun and moon. (But we being greedy dumped wastes in rivers polluting them, poached animals, occupied forests and the end result is causing the balnace of nature to be destroyed. Now we are all claomouring about climate chnage after the damage has been done).

Many non-hindus laugh at the concept og gau-mata which is understandable. I myself am a beef-eater. But I can understand where this concept comes from. In ancient times cow was very important as it provided milk which could be used in the form of various dairy products. farming was the most common means of living theerby making it more important. The cow dung was used to light up the mud stoves to cook. In cold places, cow dung is used to line the walls of rustic houses as a cheap thermal insulator. Most of the villagers in India spray fresh cow dung mixed with water in front of the houses to repel insects. Hence every house owned cows then. To keep people from killing the cows for consumption the concept of cow as holy was propagated which i believe is no longer valid in today's world.

Even today in cities turmeric is applied to doorsteps which is again a natural repellent to keep insect away. So most of the practices have a scientific meaning behind them.

Many feminists question why only groom ties the mangalsutra and bride doesn't like rings are exchanged in christian weddings. One logic that i learnt was that when saw a woman with sindoor and mangalsutra they learnt that she is married. Women on the other hand never lifted their gaze and made eye contact with men so they wouldn't be looking at the man's chest or face. But in those days both men and women wore toe rings after marriage so the woman would look at teh man's toes to know if he is married or not. But over the years men removed the toe rings after marriage (So did I after 3-4 days). Again this practice is in south india which may be different from the north.

Hence I look at Hinduism as a way of life. I shun those that I feel are outdated and no longer relevant today like for eg., after attending a funeral we are asked to take bath immediately on reaching home. This is because the virus or bacteria from teh dead person may have been on our body or clothes. By doing this it wouldn't spread to anyone else. Similarly when a person dies in a family they dont cook for 10 days and food is supplied to them for 13 days by relatives. This is again because society would wait to see if the discease has spreda to anyone else in teh family and anyone else has died in those 13 days. Once no deaths are registered in the family on teh 13th day the society would get togther. These practices are no longer relevant and followed as in those days the medical field was not so advanced.

I might be completely wrong here but these are some things i concluded upom based on my experiences.

 

[PakLFC]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/citi...man-drinks-water-from-it-101668972139600.html kind of things happen every day in rural India. I assure you Indian people on this forum choose to ignore such things. If not they tell Pakistanis "we know more about India then you do". This is just one incident that no Indian here knows about.

 

[PakLFC]

Correction. Most asylum seekers and refugee's are from South India. I can tell because of their inability to speak or understand the Urdu-Hindi language. With broken English they speak about their background end explain the persecution they escaped.

 

[ex-q-zit]

so I am just curious, why is then that in hundreds of years, the Dalits plight has not changed? What makes you think that would all change in 20 years?

I guess I am not very informed on Dalits to begin with so, let us take a step back. What are they from a faith POV? Are they not considered hindus? Or are they considered low class hindus?

I believe this issue is tlaked about so much everywhere that there is truth to it and it has not completely subsided in all these years. So while I may agree with you when it comes to the more educated urban Indians, I find it hard to believe that in 20 years time, the Indian society will see too much of an all encompassing change in this respect. I think caste based discrimination will continue, as it does in some ways in Pakistan as well.

I believe change takes place exponentially. It starts with individuals but as teh change grows it changes in multifold. Moroever in todays world of globalisation change is evident. I am not saying in 20 years caste system will be eradicated. But will be more fluid with inter caste marraiges more acceptable.

@bold: I am not sure but I have a theory about this which I read somewhere. It may be wrong or right so need to take with a pinch of salt. When aryans invaded and defeated the local population they were given 2 choices. Firstly, live a Shudras as peasant class or get driven out. Those who accepted became Shudras and those who didn't were classed a untouchables.

But no one knows what exactly is the reason. But tehy still follow it blindly like a herd of sheep.

 

[Stewie]

I completely agree with you, Islam is a way of life too though too rigid for my liking.

I look at hinduism as a way of life in a different way. Its not just about appearance or behaviour. It give Yoga which is a form of excercise, Ayurveda which is medicine to maintain our health. Then it not only tries to protect mankind but also most importantly nature. Our ancestors were much much intelligent and had more foresight than us. Hence they put a theory that god is omnipresent thereby saying god/godess is in rivers, animals, forests, sun and moon. (But we being greedy dumped wastes in rivers polluting them, poached animals, occupied forests and the end result is causing the balnace of nature to be destroyed. Now we are all claomouring about climate chnage after the damage has been done).

Many non-hindus laugh at the concept og gau-mata which is understandable. I myself am a beef-eater. But I can understand where this concept comes from. In ancient times cow was very important as it provided milk which could be used in the form of various dairy products. farming was the most common means of living theerby making it more important. The cow dung was used to light up the mud stoves to cook. In cold places, cow dung is used to line the walls of rustic houses as a cheap thermal insulator. Most of the villagers in India spray fresh cow dung mixed with water in front of the houses to repel insects. Hence every house owned cows then. To keep people from killing the cows for consumption the concept of cow as holy was propagated which i believe is no longer valid in today's world.

Even today in cities turmeric is applied to doorsteps which is again a natural repellent to keep insect away. So most of the practices have a scientific meaning behind them.

Many feminists question why only groom ties the mangalsutra and bride doesn't like rings are exchanged in christian weddings. One logic that i learnt was that when saw a woman with sindoor and mangalsutra they learnt that she is married. Women on the other hand never lifted their gaze and made eye contact with men so they wouldn't be looking at the man's chest or face. But in those days both men and women wore toe rings after marriage so the woman would look at teh man's toes to know if he is married or not. But over the years men removed the toe rings after marriage (So did I after 3-4 days). Again this practice is in south india which may be different from the north.

Hence I look at Hinduism as a way of life. I shun those that I feel are outdated and no longer relevant today like for eg., after attending a funeral we are asked to take bath immediately on reaching home. This is because the virus or bacteria from teh dead person may have been on our body or clothes. By doing this it wouldn't spread to anyone else. Similarly when a person dies in a family they dont cook for 10 days and food is supplied to them for 13 days by relatives. This is again because society would wait to see if the discease has spreda to anyone else in teh family and anyone else has died in those 13 days. Once no deaths are registered in the family on teh 13th day the society would get togther. These practices are no longer relevant and followed as in those days the medical field was not so advanced.

I might be completely wrong here but these are some things i concluded upom based on my experiences.

Very insightful stuff. It’s amazing how every culture/religion/ civilization dating back hundreds or thousands of years has had its own practices which we may look at as dated, farsooda, as we say in Urdu or simply labeled as rituals based on superstitions or whatever and yet some of them make sense if you try looking at them from different angles.

With that being said, I fully respect your opinions, but as a Muslim, I’ll posit some counterpoints which I hope are not taken offensively.

About Islam being rigid or Hinduism being flexible or just your view of preferring a flexible way of life, I would say it all makes sense to you because you are looking at it from a personal view. Some things f your policies and actions may not be viewed as “kosher” (for lack of a better term). It comes down to personal or individual preference which are going to vary from person to person, from minor differences to extreme contrasts. So how do you determine what’s best? Also you may have the best at heart but someone else might now and do what’s convenient to them and not to others and the environment. I am speaking in generalities because that’s the only way I can hopefully communicate my point.

Islam tries to provide a rule book or guidance to avoid exactly this sort of situation. Quite honestly, I admit even I feel it is too rigid and I question those who tell me Islam is simple and straight forward. N many ways it is and many ways it isn’t. Some would tell me it’s just because I listen to the wrong people with rigid points of view. Anyhow that’s a topic for another discussion.

Point is, you need some structure around you. We claim that’s what pagans and Christians lacked. For instance Christian’s started their own churches based on their own preference and they all greatly vary, yet they all call themselves Christian denominations. Islam tries to unify and give you a structure. Unfortunately even that structure has slightly changed over the years if you look at different sects of Islam but largely they are very similar. It’s human nature to go off and diverge and Islam tries to keep that in check somehow to control those impulses.

Don’t know if any of that made sense to you.

 

[ex-q-zit]

Yes I have good knowledge through a good many Indian's i know from many backgrounds. I did not say that other castes do not discriminate rather the Brahmins consider themselves as the Godheads of Hinduism. The five castes are like a ladder where the one below is considered as being the weaker. I also know that every caste has many sub groups as well. No! Most prominent Bollywood actors have Muslim names nowadays where as the Kapoor's were Brahmins I believe.

Yes you can convert to Hinduism if you don't bother asking any high priests permission or ignore a conversion ceremony. Hollywood actress Julia Roberts is a devout Hindu which obviously you are oblivious about. Another thing is that if conversion is not a part of Hinduism then what's with this "ghar wapsi" nonsense doing our heads in? As Gandhi said Hinduism is more of a culture then religious belief which is exactly what the RSS preach that you can be Muslim yet culturally Hindu too! I don't know how this works! I am afraid today most non Hindu's in India are living under the gun all the time.

You are so ignorant but I appreciate the confidence you have. As I said earlier India is not an homogenous society. India has 28 states and most states have their own culture. So have you met people from all states? Can you distinguish between a kannadiga and tamilian?

I don't know under what basis you claim most south indians abroad are asylum seekers. It makes no sense at all. Maybe you met Sri Lankan Tamils and mistook them for Indian Tamils as that is the only place which was war-torn. On teh other hand South India has been the most peaceful since independence as we dont share an boundaries with any country. Delhi had Sikh riots, Gujarat had 2003, UP had babari masjid but south has been relatively peaceful.

All 5 states in south india have 1000s of universities and all multi national IT companies have offices in its cities. To seek asylum in large numbers there should be terrorism like tehre was in Kashmir n Punjab in 80s and 90s. On the otehr hand 90% of immigrated south indians are It professionals or doctors.

When did I say you cannot follow hinduism? Please read what I have written carefully before you post. I said clearly there are no formal procedure to convert to hindusim but anyone can pray and follow hindu practices. Does Julia Roberts have a gotra which every hindu has? As I said earlier Hinduism accepts everything in its fold hence all religions have been able to grow in India.

As for Ghar wapsi, its done by RSS with some made up procedures. So whats wrong if RSS preaches that muslims are culturally hindu? Those who agree will accept it and those who dont will not give 2 cents to it. Its not like every muslim women is asked to put on sindhoor. RSS wods are not the gospel.

Coming to the last part. Its rich coming from you that non hindus in India are living under the gun all the time. When was the last time you had a Sikh PM or Hindu President? Oh wait you cannot have them constitutionally right!!!!!!!!!!

How many muslim girls have been forcefully kidnapped, converted and married off in India? Can you provide atleast 1 incident? Google it if you want as nothing is hidden in this age of internet. At the same time google how many hindu/sikh girls have ben kidnapped and forcefully converted in Pakistan. In fact in India there have been several instance when a muslim girl and hindu boy eloped and got married and the couple or boy has ben murdered. Can a hindu family in Pakistan kill a muslim for marrying their daughter? Are there any Sikh or hindu generals in Pak army?

In India ahmaddiyyas live and practice their religion peacefully. Can they do the same in Pak? Before you start getting afraid of non-hindus in India show atleast 1% of that concern towards your fellow minority citizens. In India every city or town or village with muslims have masjids? Was a temple allowed to be built in Islamabad?

Hope your points were answered.

 

[ex-q-zit]

Very insightful stuff. It’s amazing how every culture/religion/ civilization dating back hundreds or thousands of years has had its own practices which we may look at as dated, farsooda, as we say in Urdu or simply labeled as rituals based on superstitions or whatever and yet some of them make sense if you try looking at them from different angles.

With that being said, I fully respect your opinions, but as a Muslim, I’ll posit some counterpoints which I hope are not taken offensively.

About Islam being rigid or Hinduism being flexible or just your view of preferring a flexible way of life, I would say it all makes sense to you because you are looking at it from a personal view. Some things f your policies and actions may not be viewed as “kosher” (for lack of a better term). It comes down to personal or individual preference which are going to vary from person to person, from minor differences to extreme contrasts. So how do you determine what’s best? Also you may have the best at heart but someone else might now and do what’s convenient to them and not to others and the environment. I am speaking in generalities because that’s the only way I can hopefully communicate my point.

Islam tries to provide a rule book or guidance to avoid exactly this sort of situation. Quite honestly, I admit even I feel it is too rigid and I question those who tell me Islam is simple and straight forward. N many ways it is and many ways it isn’t. Some would tell me it’s just because I listen to the wrong people with rigid points of view. Anyhow that’s a topic for another discussion.

Point is, you need some structure around you. We claim that’s what pagans and Christians lacked. For instance Christian’s started their own churches based on their own preference and they all greatly vary, yet they all call themselves Christian denominations. Islam tries to unify and give you a structure. Unfortunately even that structure has slightly changed over the years if you look at different sects of Islam but largely they are very similar. It’s human nature to go off and diverge and Islam tries to keep that in check somehow to control those impulses.

Don’t know if any of that made sense to you.

I completely respect your opinion. I said rigid from the point of view of an athiest. Hinduism allows me that, thats all I meant.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Ya know India is one country that hides everything from the world through it's propoganda. It tells that all is great in IoK when independent repoorts tell a very different story. As for statistics Navjot Singh Sidhu it best with his "miniskirts" comments! Similarly your assembly does not paint the overall picture of your society either. I will say that most religious discrimination occurs in remote villages where no one keeps any record of such happenings. One wouldn't expect co-operative India to be discriminating so openly would mean the government condones it.

From my experience the many asylum seekers I have met are mostly from North India. They tell me they ended up wherever they did due to the various forms of discrimination they faced back home. Why do you people think India is a first world country?

Of course, the asylum seekers say they faced discrimination. What else they will say to the immigration officer? All of those people are economic migrants. Dalits have reservations and they do not have to try hard to get jobs. Same goes for OBC castes and BC’s.

So your conclusion depends on what asylum seekers say vs the stats I posted.

 

[PakLFC]

Of course, the asylum seekers say they faced discrimination. What else they will say to the immigration officer? All of those people are economic migrants. Dalits have reservations and they do not have to try hard to get jobs. Same goes for OBC castes and BC’s.

So your conclusion depends on what asylum seekers say vs the stats I posted.

The stats that you posted were not verified by any independent source. It is understandable that you will call those escaping persecution in India as economic migrants. We know that India has the most number of separatists that leads to violence. This is what these people are escaping.

 

[PakLFC]

You are so ignorant but I appreciate the confidence you have. As I said earlier India is not an homogenous society. India has 28 states and most states have their own culture. So have you met people from all states? Can you distinguish between a kannadiga and tamilian?

I don't know under what basis you claim most south indians abroad are asylum seekers. It makes no sense at all. Maybe you met Sri Lankan Tamils and mistook them for Indian Tamils as that is the only place which was war-torn. On teh other hand South India has been the most peaceful since independence as we dont share an boundaries with any country. Delhi had Sikh riots, Gujarat had 2003, UP had babari masjid but south has been relatively peaceful.

All 5 states in south india have 1000s of universities and all multi national IT companies have offices in its cities. To seek asylum in large numbers there should be terrorism like tehre was in Kashmir n Punjab in 80s and 90s. On the otehr hand 90% of immigrated south indians are It professionals or doctors.

When did I say you cannot follow hinduism? Please read what I have written carefully before you post. I said clearly there are no formal procedure to convert to hindusim but anyone can pray and follow hindu practices. Does Julia Roberts have a gotra which every hindu has? As I said earlier Hinduism accepts everything in its fold hence all religions have been able to grow in India.

As for Ghar wapsi, its done by RSS with some made up procedures. So whats wrong if RSS preaches that muslims are culturally hindu? Those who agree will accept it and those who dont will not give 2 cents to it. Its not like every muslim women is asked to put on sindhoor. RSS wods are not the gospel.

Coming to the last part. Its rich coming from you that non hindus in India are living under the gun all the time. When was the last time you had a Sikh PM or Hindu President? Oh wait you cannot have them constitutionally right!!!!!!!!!!

How many muslim girls have been forcefully kidnapped, converted and married off in India? Can you provide atleast 1 incident? Google it if you want as nothing is hidden in this age of internet. At the same time google how many hindu/sikh girls have ben kidnapped and forcefully converted in Pakistan. In fact in India there have been several instance when a muslim girl and hindu boy eloped and got married and the couple or boy has ben murdered. Can a hindu family in Pakistan kill a muslim for marrying their daughter? Are there any Sikh or hindu generals in Pak army?

In India ahmaddiyyas live and practice their religion peacefully. Can they do the same in Pak? Before you start getting afraid of non-hindus in India show atleast 1% of that concern towards your fellow minority citizens. In India every city or town or village with muslims have masjids? Was a temple allowed to be built in Islamabad?

Hope your points were answered.

Calling me ignorant only proves i am hurting your Indian ego! I didn't say there are insurgents in every state that you are asking me childish questions. Even if there are only a few thousand then that is enough to cause helluva lot of damage. I can tell by there mother tongue or can ask them where they originate from.

You say that Hinduism does not propagate religious conversion then they there is nothing wrong with "ghar wapsi". At least Islam openly believes in proselytizing instead of your contradictory cobblers. How can a Muslim be culturally Hindu when Islam forbids idol worship?? Hindu's want the money of Christian missionaries and the Arab's which is why it supposedly tolerates these religions but the reality can be seen with all the RSS hate mongering. There is no procedure in following Hinduism because no one really knows what it is with is incredibly complicated practices and belief system.

You see a country formed in the name of Islam like Pakistan can not have a non Muslim Pres or PM. This is something you Indian people fail to understand time and time again. Having a non Muslim leader contradicts the very creation of Pakistan where as India calls itself secular hence the difference in approach.

So you expect me to give you answers my Google when incidents like Gujarat are in front of us! Do you not know what was done to Muslim ladies then? Every day we here Hindu's and Muslims fighting on your TV channels over the smallest of issues then you talk of "ghar wapsi" asking how many are being pressurized to become Hindu? Yeah Pak has such problems because unlike Indian people we accept it, you don't.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...mob-shocked-by-release-of-11-jailed-men-india Yes there are Hindu's and Sikh's in the Pak army but once again for the said reasons in an Islamic country they can not get the top most positions.

Once more what is with this "ghar wapsi" nonsense when your Muslim's are happy to believers in Islam?? Adityanath openly calls for the rape of Muslim ladies with thousands cheering and you point the finger at us? Has a Hafiz Saee ever called for the rape or slaughter of Hindu's or Sikh's in Pakistan?. No in Pak a Hindu can not marry a Muslim lady but equally a Muslim man may not marry a Hindu lady either. Those who do so go against the tenants of Islam. So what is your point mentioning that Hindu's are murdered in India? In case it missed you India has a massive Muslim population where as Pak a minuscule Hindi and Sikh one nonetheless we don't attack Sikh temples like you did in 1984. Remember??

Yes many Ahmediyya's in Pak do practice freely but you won't hear that because only their suffering makes the news. Ever heard of a Christian missionary being killed in Pak like we often do in India?? You need to hear the truth and I am just the one to do it by opening your eyes to reality. I don't need lectures from someone living in the rape capital of the world at all unless you want a red face in return. Lectures from the west i will accept India the biggest hell hole on earth you've gotta be havin' a laugh talking about human rights. It's not even funny! Yes many Hindu temples in Pak have been restored where as in India you find temples under every Mosque then bulldoze them whilst the government and police look on.

 

[ex-q-zit]

Calling me ignorant only proves i am hurting your Indian ego! I didn't say there are insurgents in every state that you are asking me childish questions. Even if there are only a few thousand then that is enough to cause helluva lot of damage. I can tell by there mother tongue or can ask them where they originate from.

You say that Hinduism does not propagate religious conversion then they there is nothing wrong with "ghar wapsi". At least Islam openly believes in proselytizing instead of your contradictory cobblers. How can a Muslim be culturally Hindu when Islam forbids idol worship?? Hindu's want the money of Christian missionaries and the Arab's which is why it supposedly tolerates these religions but the reality can be seen with all the RSS hate mongering. There is no procedure in following Hinduism because no one really knows what it is with is incredibly complicated practices and belief system.

You see a country formed in the name of Islam like Pakistan can not have a non Muslim Pres or PM. This is something you Indian people fail to understand time and time again. Having a non Muslim leader contradicts the very creation of Pakistan where as India calls itself secular hence the difference in approach.

So you expect me to give you answers my Google when incidents like Gujarat are in front of us! Do you not know what was done to Muslim ladies then? Every day we here Hindu's and Muslims fighting on your TV channels over the smallest of issues then you talk of "ghar wapsi" asking how many are being pressurized to become Hindu? Yeah Pak has such problems because unlike Indian people we accept it, you don't.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...mob-shocked-by-release-of-11-jailed-men-india Yes there are Hindu's and Sikh's in the Pak army but once again for the said reasons in an Islamic country they can not get the top most positions.

Once more what is with this "ghar wapsi" nonsense when your Muslim's are happy to believers in Islam?? Adityanath openly calls for the rape of Muslim ladies with thousands cheering and you point the finger at us? Has a Hafiz Saee ever called for the rape or slaughter of Hindu's or Sikh's in Pakistan?. No in Pak a Hindu can not marry a Muslim lady but equally a Muslim man may not marry a Hindu lady either. Those who do so go against the tenants of Islam. So what is your point mentioning that Hindu's are murdered in India? In case it missed you India has a massive Muslim population where as Pak a minuscule Hindi and Sikh one nonetheless we don't attack Sikh temples like you did in 1984. Remember??

Yes many Ahmediyya's in Pak do practice freely but you won't hear that because only their suffering makes the news. Ever heard of a Christian missionary being killed in Pak like we often do in India?? You need to hear the truth and I am just the one to do it by opening your eyes to reality. I don't need lectures from someone living in the rape capital of the world at all unless you want a red face in return. Lectures from the west i will accept India the biggest hell hole on earth you've gotta be havin' a laugh talking about human rights. It's not even funny! Yes many Hindu temples in Pak have been restored where as in India you find temples under every Mosque then bulldoze them whilst the government and police look on.

I shall try making some sense with one last time.

'Ghar Wapsi' is a Sangh dream and a complete farce nor does is it have any support outside of the RSS.

You are asking if Hafiz Saeed has ever called for the rape or slaughter of hindu's and sikhs in Pak. But conveniently leave the point of kidnapping of hindu/sikh girls and forcefully marrying them.

Regarding india tolerating christians and muslims for money do you know when christianity started in India? It started in kerala immediately after christ's crucification when one of his disciples landed in India and the king gave him land to build a church 2000 years ago. Today kerala have 20% christian population. So how much money did the king get to build teh first church in India. Parsis who were following the native religion of Iran came to India as refugees and have lived here for centuries? What did India gain then by giving them refuge.

India has 1.4 billion population. Pakistan with 225 million has fights between Sunnis and Shias. 1000s of hazaras have been killed. With over a billion population and that too a bloody partition behind them there are bound to be riots. In Kashmir muslims are a majority and there hindus too faced the brunt. India has its own set of problems in every region. But every Indian irrespective of their religion has the same rights irrespective of religion. I studied in a 140 year old school built by the british where I had classmates who were muslim, christian and sikh. In colleges and at workplace too people of all faiths were there. No muslim has been stopped from doing their muharrum processions or eid celebrations. If that was the case most of the Indian asylum seekers that you claim to have met would have been Indian muslims.

In fact Haj subsidies are provided to muslims. No such thing for hindus or christians. Theer are reservations in colleges for all SCs, STs, BCs and muslims as well. If Indian muslims were persecuted so much 1000s would ahve left to join ISIS but it was just a handful. We have muslims like Abdul Kalam who headed ISRO and went on to become the President. We have Nikhat Zareen who won gold in boxing. They ahve equal opportunity in every field.

Since you claim to ahve met many Indians i guess you would have met atleast a handful of muslims. Ask them if given a chance would they migrate to Pakistan and you will have your answer.

Just like you are a self proclaimed defender of Islam I am a self proclaimed athiest. I ahve no sympathies whatsoever regrading RSS and other Sangh elements. But my friend, you seem to have a wrong notion about India. Being a country of billion popluation consisting of various religions, languages and cultures Indian society is too complex to simplify it as hindus vs non-hindus. You can only understand it if you visit India and see it yourself and not believe hearsay and inbuilt hate.

Anyways I am done. You are free to do whatever you want.

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Thread was created in 2012 and we are in 2022 now. Forget about escaping from caste system, things are getting worse with each passing day in India.

 

[Justcrazy]

Do you have any knowledge about the caste system of India? India is not a homogenous society. In north india Brahmins and Kshtriyas are the dominant castes.

The above incident happened in South. In South India the dominant castes are Reddy, Kamma, Gowda, mudaliar, chettiyar etc. All these are Shudra castes. All prominent film personalities politicians and rich people are from these castes. Brahmins or Kshtriyas or Vaishyas dont have much power. Having said that dalits are looked down by Shudras too. Most brahmins are middle class or upper middle class.

Not just Brahmins you cannot convert to hinduism on a whole. Unlike islam or Christianity which has a procedure and rules to convert hinduism has no such thing. But unlike the abrahamic religions hinduism is not rigid and allows person of any religion to pray to any god. Hence every religion in the world found sheltor in India apart from the indegenous religions.

So , if you have no procedures , and one can pray to anything , then that means there is no such religion .

But , I think that Hinduism does have a body and jurisprudence . They have ceremonies at birth and death and how to marry , how to dispose dead.

 

[Justcrazy]

No one drinks it and there is no compulsions in hinduism in anything. The only way it is consumed is when a very small quantity of it is mixed in the holy water (theerth) that is given in temples. Those who did this cleansing of teh water tank are just fools.

Though I am born as a hindu and I identify as a hindu I dont believe in teh concept of God. Thats the best part of Hinduism as its not considered blasphemous. The reason I identify as hindu because i see hinduism as a way of life rather than a religion.

You say you consider Hinduism is way of life , so how you incorporate hinduism in your day to day life ? Is there anything you do different , than what you would have done if you had no influence of hinduism in your life ?

 

[ex-q-zit]

You say you consider Hinduism is way of life , so how you incorporate hinduism in your day to day life ? Is there anything you do different , than what you would have done if you had no influence of hinduism in your life ?

I have explained in detail in one of my posts above about way of life.

As for if I would ahve done anything different if I had no influence of hinduism is difficult to answer. How your world views depends on which region, religion you are born in, your expereiences growing up. For eg., a muslim born in pakistan would see hindus differentlt than a muslim in India. The latter would ahve seen hindus more upclose and be more accomodative of it. A muslim woman in India can wear boxer shorts and compete in a boxing competition but that is unthinkable in Pakistan.

So answering your question about if I would have lived differently is difficult.

 

[ex-q-zit]

So , if you have no procedures , and one can pray to anything , then that means there is no such religion .

But , I think that Hinduism does have a body and jurisprudence . They have ceremonies at birth and death and how to marry , how to dispose dead.

Hindusim unlike the Abrahamic religions is not within the confines of a single holy book. There are vedas, upanishads, puranas etc. Within these you have rituals for marraige, birth, death etc. But unlike other religions it doesn't say there is only one god and you cannot worship any other God.

There is no concept of proselytizing in hinduism. This Ghar wapsi rubbish is something no one takes seriously. Julia Roberts follows hinduism and it can be done without any rituals mentioned in the scriptures because when they were written any religion apart from hinduism didn't exist in Indian subcontinent. Hence Julia would not have a 'gotra' that a hindu descendent in India has. But not having a gotra dosesn't stop her from praying to hindu gods.

Hinduism follows the principle of 'Savre Jana Sukhinobhavanthu' which translates as May all the people live happily. Unlike islam which is like a closed corporation for muslims only. Here is what Dr. B.R. Ambedkar said:

“Hinduism is said to divide people and in contrast, Islam is said to bind people together. This is only a half-truth. For Islam divides as inexorably as it binds. Islam is a close corporation and the distinction that it makes between Muslims and non-Muslims is a very real, very positive and very alienating distinction. The brotherhood of Islam is not the universal brotherhood of man. It is a brotherhood of Muslims for Muslims only. There is a fraternity, but its benefit is confined to those within that corporation. For those who are outside the corporation, there is nothing but contempt and enmity,”

There is no concept of Ummah in hinduism. It follows the concept of 'Vasudaiva Kutumbikam' which means the whole world is a family. Thats teh reason I said anyone can pray to hindu gods without actually converting into it. Although reiterate there is no ritual to "actuall" convert to it.

Note: Funnily even the term 'Hinduism' is not correct. When the middle eastern invaders came they termed all the people living across the river Sindhu as Hindu and thats how hinduism term came about. Prior to that it was refered to a Dharma or Sanatana Dharma.