What's new

Dawah, Islamic Law, Punishments & Limits in Islam

Farhan The Man said:
It’s an internet forum for god’s sakes. No one is hiding from you

Back to the unresolved premise: how is modi’s proclamation - as outrageous as it might seem - any different from any other prophet’s call of being the special one?
Click to expand...
why you always run away when others question you?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ElRaja said:
I had an interesting expereince the other day, i am not religious and i dont hide it, but having learnt from uni experiences, i realised talking about religion is a fool's errand because the risk reward ratio is way too skewed, so I never debate religion, i have no interest in other peoples beliefs.

However an acquaintance came up to me the other day and started questioning why I'm not religious, I gave the usual spiel, trying to avoid a conversation I had no interest in having. At that point, he said that he didn't care how I felt, grabbed me by the wrist, pulled me real close and said it was his job to make me a religious and good Muslim.

i was like ok sure dude, thx. i dont even know how to communicate with someone who believes something that strongly. but just as a note to someone
Click to expand...
Are you a Muslim , I am asking this because I am curious , they way you said that man approached you .
 
LordJames said:
It is the bad practice of Muslims and in going against Islam that they are unclean.

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: Cleanliness is half of faith
Click to expand...
So no empirical. Just theoretical cleanliness.

Backed by a "non-godly" commandment. Which rates it as 50% of muslim faith. Yet no mention of cleanliness in 5 pillars. Consequently, islamic subjects live in absolute decay.

I ask again: What is the sales pitch for islam to drive incremental benefit to society? In empirical terms. Certainly not cleanliness.
 
Farhan The Man said:
So no empirical. Just theoretical cleanliness.

Backed by a "non-godly" commandment. Which rates it as 50% of muslim faith. Yet no mention of cleanliness in 5 pillars. Consequently, islamic subjects live in absolute decay.

I ask again: What is the sales pitch for islam to drive incremental benefit to society? In empirical terms. Certainly not cleanliness.
Click to expand...

The issues with your substandard "11 year of Madarasah education" will continue to haunt you for the rest of your life. There are many good things Islam has stated e.g. being nice to people, being kind to orphans, helping the poor etc should everything be included in the "5 pillars"? It would then become "5 million pillars"!

The issues with your "Academic inadequacy" are so profound that it obscures your judgement even when clear evidence is in front of you. If Islam has "no Sales pitch" then how come millions around the world continue to accept Islam? And of that many are in the West and majority women? You are in the East became disillusioned despite "11 year of Madrasah education" while those in the West turn to a religion with no "empirical" and no "Sales pitch", how come?

Then the issue with Liberals, Seculars, Apostates or those faking to be Muslims (on Social Media) is the lack of morals. You have been asked to provide clear and direct evidence of something which you have claimed and you have none. Instead of retracting your claims you will go away and repeat this bogus claim elsewhere because you have no morals and no scrupulous.

The most important thing for a decent human being is morals and ethics, when they make a mistake or something is brought to their attention they correct their position. I don't know what religion @Cpt. Rishwat is but take a look at what he is saying here, this is what honest people do...

Now, where is your direct evidence of Ottomans and Printing press???​

Ottomans and Printing Press

Provide me a single direct proof from Ottomans that they banned the printing press or declared it impermissible. Don't send me secondary or tertiary quotations from reddit.

Anyone who believes this, please post an official Ottoman Fatwa on the topic. Please feel free to post in English, Urdu, Persian, Turkish or Arabic and
 
Justcrazy said:
Are you a Muslim , I am asking this because I am curious , they way you said that man approached you .
Click to expand...
I consider myself agnostic, but I speak fluent Urdu, have lived in Pakistan, and am culturally and religiously somewhat knowledgeable, so people often assume I'm religious. Sometimes, for the lols, I might correct people's religious history because I love history and probably know a fair bit of Islamic history better than the average person, so that also throws a spanner in the works, lol.
 
ElRaja said:
I consider myself agnostic, but I speak fluent Urdu, have lived in Pakistan, and am culturally and religiously somewhat knowledgeable, so people often assume I'm religious. Sometimes, for the lols, I might correct people's religious history because I love history and probably know a fair bit of Islamic history better than the average person, so that also throws a spanner in the works, lol.
Click to expand...

What made you stop believing in the religion into which you were born ? I'm always curious about people's breaking point.
 
RexRex said:
What made you stop believing in the religion into which you were born ? I'm always curious about people's breaking point.
Click to expand...
i grew up in a religious family, but even as a kid i remember being crazy cynical, i loved figuring out why stuff happened. when i was a teen i started exploring different subjects, ideas, etc, and i got into the sciences, i was gone. by me early teens i was a fairly hardcore atheist, the scientific method was everything, i studied maths, physics, etc it at college, and at uni. at this point i didnt even understand the point of religion, it just seemed totally pointless to me when scientific rigour seemed inherently a superior approach to answering the why questions. the religious negation of science alienated my further from religion cos the negation seemed illogical.

some point after uni i went through a really tough period in my life, i was at my lowest and had to rebuild my entire sense of self. its at this point i realised that science doesnt answer everything. there are processes beyond the phsyical, which clearly arent gonna get solved by equations. again i went around exploring all sorts of different thoughts and ideas. at some point in my journey i had certain experiences which, i dont want to go into, but people might be able to assume that someone might experience on a journey of self discovery.

this gave me a tangible experience of this "meta physical" if you will, even if its purely in my head, i realised there are planes of consciousness and connection beyond our immediate perception, and our consciousness is not explained in any particularly satisfying way by science or religion, for me. at some point in this journey i was able to accept that there is a zenith to creation, and my experiences made me inclined towards believing this moreso. furthermore i like the idea that consciousness would transcend the physical world (this is not a belief, just a preference, so not really core to my view of things)

however i picked up all the bits of religions i liked and started to weave them into my approach to my mental health. bits from all sorts, this is also where my interest in religious history comes in, ive read the quran, the torah, the gospels, Buddhist works, very little hindu stuff too, as well as the historiography of their origins from a non religious perspective. so i kinda ended up becoming a monotheistic agnostic, because i dont believe whatever the zenith of creation is can in any way truly be known or communicated with, or that it is anyway bound to the behaviour of human morality.

my beliefs are fluid, i dont think ill believe all of this ten years from now, as i didnt ten or twenty years ago. therefore i dont really get involved in religious discussions or debates, i honestly dont think i have any idea, but at the same time i can appreciate that specific fixed religious beliefs provide people mental peace, as well as societal consistency. i wouldnt want everyone to think like me, i wouldnt have all this text and history to pick through if people didnt believe things strongly. my family are all still religious so i dont really make a show and dance of it.

so i wouldnt call it a breaking point. i think there have been people who have felt the existence of planes of consciousness, or other realities, and have tried their best to explain it in words in the honest hopes of trying to free humans from the chains of materiality. Some of these developed into religions, so in a sense im guessing there is some truth everywhere. Still, i cannot recognise it as anything more than belief or that there is one specific right truth in a millions of years of billions of human consciousnesses.

sorry abt the longish answer, but i wanted to get across that it was never a breaking point, more a journey in and out of different forms of beliefs
 
ElRaja said:
i grew up in a religious family, but even as a kid i remember being crazy cynical, i loved figuring out why stuff happened. when i was a teen i started exploring different subjects, ideas, etc, and i got into the sciences, i was gone. by me early teens i was a fairly hardcore atheist, the scientific method was everything, i studied maths, physics, etc it at college, and at uni. at this point i didnt even understand the point of religion, it just seemed totally pointless to me when scientific rigour seemed inherently a superior approach to answering the why questions. the religious negation of science alienated my further from religion cos the negation seemed illogical.

some point after uni i went through a really tough period in my life, i was at my lowest and had to rebuild my entire sense of self. its at this point i realised that science doesnt answer everything. there are processes beyond the phsyical, which clearly arent gonna get solved by equations. again i went around exploring all sorts of different thoughts and ideas. at some point in my journey i had certain experiences which, i dont want to go into, but people might be able to assume that someone might experience on a journey of self discovery.

this gave me a tangible experience of this "meta physical" if you will, even if its purely in my head, i realised there are planes of consciousness and connection beyond our immediate perception, and our consciousness is not explained in any particularly satisfying way by science or religion, for me. at some point in this journey i was able to accept that there is a zenith to creation, and my experiences made me inclined towards believing this moreso. furthermore i like the idea that consciousness would transcend the physical world (this is not a belief, just a preference, so not really core to my view of things)

however i picked up all the bits of religions i liked and started to weave them into my approach to my mental health. bits from all sorts, this is also where my interest in religious history comes in, ive read the quran, the torah, the gospels, Buddhist works, very little hindu stuff too, as well as the historiography of their origins from a non religious perspective. so i kinda ended up becoming a monotheistic agnostic, because i dont believe whatever the zenith of creation is can in any way truly be known or communicated with, or that it is anyway bound to the behaviour of human morality.

my beliefs are fluid, i dont think ill believe all of this ten years from now, as i didnt ten or twenty years ago. therefore i dont really get involved in religious discussions or debates, i honestly dont think i have any idea, but at the same time i can appreciate that specific fixed religious beliefs provide people mental peace, as well as societal consistency. i wouldnt want everyone to think like me, i wouldnt have all this text and history to pick through if people didnt believe things strongly. my family are all still religious so i dont really make a show and dance of it.

so i wouldnt call it a breaking point. i think there have been people who have felt the existence of planes of consciousness, or other realities, and have tried their best to explain it in words in the honest hopes of trying to free humans from the chains of materiality. Some of these developed into religions, so in a sense im guessing there is some truth everywhere. Still, i cannot recognise it as anything more than belief or that there is one specific right truth in a millions of years of billions of human consciousnesses.

sorry abt the longish answer, but i wanted to get across that it was never a breaking point, more a journey in and out of different forms of beliefs
Click to expand...
Bro,

I wanted to reply to someone else but was extraordinarily harsh and quoted you in my post and for that and any harshness I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness. Your journey sounds a lot like mine except that I don't come a particularly religious family and in my case a lot of Academic studying, drinking, partying, reading, debating, discussions etc. Most of the time, I was upon the belief of whatever interesting girl I was with, Israeli, Hindu, White, Caribbean whatever!

And my prayers are with you on your journey because it sounds like you are still traveling.

We are all travelers and may we all arrive at the correct destination (Ameen).
 
LordJames said:
Bro,

I wanted to reply to someone else but was extraordinarily harsh and quoted you in my post and for that and any harshness I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness. Your journey sounds a lot like mine except that I don't come a particularly religious family and in my case a lot of Academic studying, drinking, partying, reading, debating, discussions etc. Most of the time, I was upon the belief of whatever interesting girl I was with, Israeli, Hindu, White, Caribbean whatever!

And my prayers are with you on your journey because it sounds like you are still traveling.

We are all travelers and may we all arrive at the correct destination (Ameen).
Click to expand...
Ma Sha Allah to see how far you’ve come now is very inspiring.

Truly, Allah guides whom He wills.

May we all be rightly guided and end our life’s journey at the peak of Iman. Ameen.
 

Book Recommendation: The Death of Neo-Darwinism: Dawkins vs Noble​

For over a century, Neo-Darwinism has exerted a predominant influence in the field of evolutionary biology, with Richard Dawkins serving as its most prominent proponent. However, the authors engage with the insights of Denis Noble to illuminate the logical deficiencies embedded within Neo-Darwinism, demonstrating that its reductionist, gene-centric paradigm fails to align with significant advancements in molecular biology.

They juxtapose Dawkins' limited perspective with Noble’s integrative framework, advocating for a systems-based understanding of life that transcends reductionist approaches. This work serves as a conduit between the domains of science and philosophy, prompting readers to reevaluate a belief system that is predicated solely on a scientific theory that is open to revision.

By exploring the philosophical dimensions of scientific inquiry, “The Death of Neo-Darwinism” endeavors to deepen our understanding of belief within a rapidly evolving scientific landscape. As the concept of evolution continues to transform, this biological revolution is poised to impact discourse in theology, psychology, politics, economics, and our conceptualizations of existence and society.

616xf9pNfcL._SL1499_.jpg

​
 
LordJames said:
Bro,

I wanted to reply to someone else but was extraordinarily harsh and quoted you in my post and for that and any harshness I apologize to you and seek your forgiveness. Your journey sounds a lot like mine except that I don't come a particularly religious family and in my case a lot of Academic studying, drinking, partying, reading, debating, discussions etc. Most of the time, I was upon the belief of whatever interesting girl I was with, Israeli, Hindu, White, Caribbean whatever!

And my prayers are with you on your journey because it sounds like you are still traveling.

We are all travelers and may we all arrive at the correct destination (Ameen).
Click to expand...
no worries man, hopefully one day our paths will cross, either in this plane of existence or another. :)
 
LordJames said:
If Islam has "no Sales pitch" then how come millions around the world continue to accept Islam?​
Click to expand...
And millions leave after experiencing this facade from the inside.

Ever wonder why apostasy is punishable by death. It's to keep collecting bodies.

This forceful, manipulative hold runs contrary to human compassion; and freedom of choice.
 
Farhan The Man said:
And millions leave after experiencing this facade from the inside.

Ever wonder why apostasy is punishable by death. It's to keep collecting bodies.

This forceful, manipulative hold runs contrary to human compassion; and freedom of choice.
Click to expand...
Ok show us your source please, Mr 14 years experienced scholar
 
Happy to oblige.

Narrated `Ikrima:​
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"​

 
Farhan The Man said:
Happy to oblige.

Narrated `Ikrima:​
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"​

Click to expand...
You quoted a narration for punishment of apostasy.

@The Bald Eagle is asking for evidence for this statement of yours

And millions leave after experiencing this facade from the inside.

You must have really gone to a seriously messed up Madrasah for 11 years where you can't even read basic and simple sentences in English let alone in Arabic.
 
LordJames said:
You quoted a narration for punishment of apostasy.

@The Bald Eagle is asking for evidence for this statement of yours

And millions leave after experiencing this facade from the inside.

You must have really gone to a seriously messed up Madrasah for 11 years where you can't even read basic and simple sentences in English let alone in Arabic.
Click to expand...
That Madrassah guys must would have been real gangsters.
 
LordJames said:
You quoted a narration for punishment of apostasy.

@The Bald Eagle is asking for evidence for this statement of yours

And millions leave after experiencing this facade from the inside.

You must have really gone to a seriously messed up Madrasah for 11 years where you can't even read basic and simple sentences in English let alone in Arabic.
Click to expand...

He used to refer to Shia sources as well. He stopped doing this after he realised their views were not aligned to mainstream Muslims, since 85%-90% of them are Sunni.

Makes you wonder what his real identity is since he doesn't have a clue about Islam.
 
ElRaja said:
I consider myself agnostic, but I speak fluent Urdu, have lived in Pakistan, and am culturally and religiously somewhat knowledgeable, so people often assume I'm religious. Sometimes, for the lols, I might correct people's religious history because I love history and probably know a fair bit of Islamic history better than the average person, so that also throws a spanner in the works, lol.
Click to expand...
The way they approached you was incorrect.
 
ElRaja said:
i grew up in a religious family, but even as a kid i remember being crazy cynical, i loved figuring out why stuff happened. when i was a teen i started exploring different subjects, ideas, etc, and i got into the sciences, i was gone. by me early teens i was a fairly hardcore atheist, the scientific method was everything, i studied maths, physics, etc it at college, and at uni. at this point i didnt even understand the point of religion, it just seemed totally pointless to me when scientific rigour seemed inherently a superior approach to answering the why questions. the religious negation of science alienated my further from religion cos the negation seemed illogical.

some point after uni i went through a really tough period in my life, i was at my lowest and had to rebuild my entire sense of self. its at this point i realised that science doesnt answer everything. there are processes beyond the phsyical, which clearly arent gonna get solved by equations. again i went around exploring all sorts of different thoughts and ideas. at some point in my journey i had certain experiences which, i dont want to go into, but people might be able to assume that someone might experience on a journey of self discovery.

this gave me a tangible experience of this "meta physical" if you will, even if its purely in my head, i realised there are planes of consciousness and connection beyond our immediate perception, and our consciousness is not explained in any particularly satisfying way by science or religion, for me. at some point in this journey i was able to accept that there is a zenith to creation, and my experiences made me inclined towards believing this moreso. furthermore i like the idea that consciousness would transcend the physical world (this is not a belief, just a preference, so not really core to my view of things)

however i picked up all the bits of religions i liked and started to weave them into my approach to my mental health. bits from all sorts, this is also where my interest in religious history comes in, ive read the quran, the torah, the gospels, Buddhist works, very little hindu stuff too, as well as the historiography of their origins from a non religious perspective. so i kinda ended up becoming a monotheistic agnostic, because i dont believe whatever the zenith of creation is can in any way truly be known or communicated with, or that it is anyway bound to the behaviour of human morality.

my beliefs are fluid, i dont think ill believe all of this ten years from now, as i didnt ten or twenty years ago. therefore i dont really get involved in religious discussions or debates, i honestly dont think i have any idea, but at the same time i can appreciate that specific fixed religious beliefs provide people mental peace, as well as societal consistency. i wouldnt want everyone to think like me, i wouldnt have all this text and history to pick through if people didnt believe things strongly. my family are all still religious so i dont really make a show and dance of it.

so i wouldnt call it a breaking point. i think there have been people who have felt the existence of planes of consciousness, or other realities, and have tried their best to explain it in words in the honest hopes of trying to free humans from the chains of materiality. Some of these developed into religions, so in a sense im guessing there is some truth everywhere. Still, i cannot recognise it as anything more than belief or that there is one specific right truth in a millions of years of billions of human consciousnesses.

sorry abt the longish answer, but i wanted to get across that it was never a breaking point, more a journey in and out of different forms of beliefs
Click to expand...

You wrote a big comment , but I think you will also agree that you did not answer the question posed. I do not know whether you understand what agnostic means , but it is something where you have no stance .

here you could have mentioned why you think there may be God .
 
Farhan The Man said:
Happy to oblige.

Narrated `Ikrima:​
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to `Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn `Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"​

Click to expand...
This is what happens when you get your questions from Ex Muslim channels .

To be honest there is No point in rep;lying to you because Sanatani hiding behind Muslim names , is not uncommon these days . Your objective is not discussion but to just keep trolling. Trust me millions of such false propagation bots will not affect Islam even one bit.
 
Justcrazy said:
You wrote a big comment , but I think you will also agree that you did not answer the question posed. I do not know whether you understand what agnostic means , but it is something where you have no stance .

here you could have mentioned why you think there may be God .
Click to expand...
I disagree. Agnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis, which means knowing. Agnosticism means not knowing. I don't claim to know anything. I have certain beliefs and intuitions that I lean towards from logical or narrow experiential deduction, but I would never call them knowledge because they cannot be tested and i am not certain of them. Hence, I am agnostic.

Agnostic in the theological sense does not mean not having a stance, that's a modern usage of the term applied in a non-religious context.
 
LordJames said:
There are many good things Islam has stated e.g. being nice to people, being kind to orphans, helping the poor etc should everything be included in the "5 pillars"? It would then become "5 million pillars"!​
Click to expand...
When a single act constitutes 50% of faith -- per your assertion -- it's only logical to rank top in main 5 pillars.

Apparently, you overstated the weightage for cleanliness in zest. Hence it neither ranks in 5 pillars. Nor muslims are habituated to keeping clean.

Pertinent question is. Who came up with these 5 pillars: human or god?
 
ElRaja said:
I disagree. Agnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis, which means knowing. Agnosticism means not knowing. I don't claim to know anything. I have certain beliefs and intuitions that I lean towards from logical or narrow experiential deduction, but I would never call them knowledge because they cannot be tested and i am not certain of them. Hence, I am agnostic.

Agnostic in the theological sense does not mean not having a stance, that's a modern usage of the term applied in a non-religious context.
Click to expand...

a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

This is the dictionary meaning.
 
Farhan The Man said:
sunnah.com. Is as islamic as it gets.

I am glad though you are rejecting call of murder/death/killing for apostasy.

A human deserves the right to freewill. Here now.
Click to expand...

The issue with you you will never have a proper discussion . You just make a few random comments and then you suddenly disappear. I have seen this common trait among several Sanatanis disguised as Muslims or atheists.

I asked you one question in another thread three times, never got the answer. Discussion is not one way traffic. Its not right of Sanatanis to question Islam, Muslims also have right to question you people. that is how discussion works.
 
ElRaja said:
I had an interesting expereince the other day, i am not religious and i dont hide it, but having learnt from uni experiences, i realised talking about religion is a fool's errand because the risk reward ratio is way too skewed, so I never debate religion, i have no interest in other peoples beliefs.

However an acquaintance came up to me the other day and started questioning why I'm not religious, I gave the usual spiel, trying to avoid a conversation I had no interest in having. At that point, he said that he didn't care how I felt, grabbed me by the wrist, pulled me real close and said it was his job to make me a religious and good Muslim.

i was like ok sure dude, thx. i dont even know how to communicate with someone who believes something that strongly. but just as a note to someone who thinks doing this is how you preach religion, its not.
Click to expand...
He was just looking out for a dear brother, keep him close. He has your long term best interests at heart
 
Justcrazy said:
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

This is the dictionary meaning.
Click to expand...
there are dictionary definitions which split that apart into two meanings, either, or, theres some that dont include the latter bit. its immaterial, if you dont think the label applies to me, that's fine. i think it's just the closest i can get to a label if i any is applicable at all. that's why i went into explaining what i kind of believe for now, so the label isnt important.
 
ElRaja said:
there are dictionary definitions which split that apart into two meanings, either, or, theres some that dont include the latter bit. its immaterial, if you dont think the label applies to me, that's fine. i think it's just the closest i can get to a label if i any is applicable at all. that's why i went into explaining what i kind of believe for now, so the label isnt important.
Click to expand...

I a,m, asking this because , agnostic is generally a neutral ground , so I was interested to know why you think God exists , because atheist position is that there is no god.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

R
Gaza war driving Muslim ‘isolation’ in UK: MWL chief
Replies
38
Views
369
Cpt. Rishwat
Cpt. Rishwat
The Bald Eagle
Can any Muslim nation maul Israel before the end of times?
2
Replies
150
Views
3K
Hellion
H
L
Why are Muslims always losing?
2
Replies
118
Views
1K
Stewie
Stewie
C
Kolkata Mayor Firhad Hakim's remarks on 'need to spread Islam among non-Muslims' spark controversy; BJP condemns
Replies
0
Views
206
Champ_Pal
C
The Bald Eagle
Are some of the Muslim majority areas in UK good advertisement for Islam?
Replies
23
Views
623
Mas-LFC
Mas-LFC
Back
Top