Decline of specialist spinners in limited overs internationals?

[msb314]

That seems to be the trend nowadays.

Most teams hardly play specialist spinners in LOI/T20's anymore.

Only see Herath, Badree turn up for their teams from time to time but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

India play Ashwin and Jadeja who are both AR's.

NZ play Santner who is also an AR.

Pakistan play Hafeez and Imad who are both AR's (we don't play Yasir any more the shorter forms of the game)

Australia have Maxwell, Smithand Head who are all AR's (Lyon plays occasionally but is not a regular starter)

SL have Herath as the only specialist spinner but he is near the end of his career.

England have Dawson but he is not a regular starter anyway (Rashid and Moeen are AR's)

WI have Narine but he is also an AR (Badree is the only pure specialist spinner)

SAF has Tahir as a specialist but no one else.

Why the change in trend from the days of Murli, Saqlain, Kumble, Harbhajan and Warne?

 

[Rayyman]

Specialist leggies are more common (Tahir, Zampa, Rashid, Badree, etc.)

No specialist offies because off-spin is easy to bowl. Just throw the ball straight at a moderate speed with a little spin on the ball. Actually most off-spinners don't even turn the ball anymore. They're mostly darters. There is no complicated action or long run-up.

As an off-spinner, there is a lot of time to work on batting (Maxwell, Hafeez, etc.) and fielding (Jadeja, Head, etc.)

 

[Liverpool_Faizan]

I wouldnt classify Ashwin or Rashid as all rounders. They are bowlers who can bat a bit.

Im not even sure if I would classify Santner as an all rounder. Not a proper one yet anyways.

 

[Protea Fan]

Calling Narine,Ashwin,Rashid as all rounders is disrespect to proper allrounders

Although its fine calling moeen and jadeja as allrounders

To be precise shakib is only the legit allrounder playing in LOI format

 

[ExpressPacer]

Finger spinners are usually specialists.

 

[Amjid Javed]

The change in fielding restrictions, more stringent testing on actions, small boundaries etc.. have been a few factors which have started to kill off spin bowling in ODI cricket.

 

[FreePalestine]

interesting thread. I think may be down to the quality of spinners... Tahir playing suggests that being a specialist spinner is still possible if you are good enough. Mason Crane is another one who will probably soon play for England in ODI's ahead of Rashid, even though I don't think he can bat.

If there was an off spinner as good as Saqlain or Murali, you can be sure they would be playing ODI's, just think of the impact Ajmal had for us.

So considering current talent, if you are not a genuine wicket taking quality spinner, then teams will prefer the a/r option.

 

[FreePalestine]

Lyon in Australia is an interesting case. I think the Aussies underrate him a bit, but maybe his exclusion suggests that off spinners, or finger spinners, are not getting good purchase from modern ODI tracks.. That's why the wrist spinner Zampa is getting picked ahead of him. But I think it is a bit unfair on Lyon considering his recent form. Aussies are always quick to make snap judgements, its really annoying.

 

[MMHS]

Mainly due to the playing conditions that spinners are dying in cricket. It's a trap set by boards/countries that can't compete with Asian sides for their spin attack & spin playing capacity. South Asian boards are stupid enough to fell for that trap so easily. That 4 day Test proposal is another such tactics, which Asian boards must resist to preserve their unique assets, which'll eventually take all 5 Asian sides among top teams, if the cricket system remains functional.


2 machine swean balls without much seem to grip, heavier/thicker compressed bats, smaller boundary, more & more D/N matches (dew) combined with absolute roads, where batsmen can swing along the line blind folded - is taking spinners out of the LO game. Otherwise, current spin playing standard is worst in cricket history, at least since WW1. Even in these khullam khulla era of slog feast, in few matches where we have seen slight turn or a bit of double pace/bounce or a bit longer boundary than usual 60 metres - batting has been in shambles against pretty average spinners. And, when there is good turn, batting has been absolute disgraceful - even in T20s, like we saw in WC, by one of the better spin playing teams against pretty average Kiwi spin attack.

Nothing, absolutely nothing need to be changed - ONLY I'll ask the groundsmen to put the rope at maximum possible distance, where blindfold slogged top edges won't clear the boundary - like Test matches, in ODI as well top 4/5 bowlers in ICC ranking will be spinner, such is the batting standard against spin these Days. And, if they bring the identical playing conditions of 80-90s, many spinners will have Test match like wicket/match return - that's average 2/3 wickets par innings.

I think, spinners has bigger roles to play these days, because of the batting standards, but the game context has to be balanced, which gives fair chance to every element of it. Otherwise, in a similar context, we might be asking in future - if centre backs are required or not in football, if there is no off side rule!!!!

 

[The_Odd_One]

Most teams can't afford to play tailenders in ODIs so unless you are Tahir level good, teams will be more content with playing all-rounders like Imad who will just finish their 10 overs quota economically.

 

[msb314]

I wouldnt classify Ashwin or Rashid as all rounders. They are bowlers who can bat a bit.

Im not even sure if I would classify Santner as an all rounder. Not a proper one yet anyways.

Ashwin bats at no. 6 in Tests with multiple centuries - seems like an AR to me.

 

[msb314]

The change in fielding restrictions, more stringent testing on actions, small boundaries etc.. have been a few factors which have started to kill off spin bowling in ODI cricket.

But why don't the same factors affect legspin?

 

[msb314]

Calling Narine,Ashwin,Rashid as all rounders is disrespect to proper allrounders

Although its fine calling moeen and jadeja as allrounders

To be precise shakib is only the legit allrounder playing in LOI format

Narine and Ashwin are both AR's.

Ashwin has Test centuries away from home batting at no. 6.

Narine has incredible hitting power and has played blinders in the IPL. He is also an AR>

 

[mak36]

Narine and Ashwin are both AR's.

Ashwin has Test centuries away from home batting at no. 6.

Narine has incredible hitting power and has played blinders in the IPL. He is also an AR>

Ashwin has shown ability with the bat in tests, but he is not an AR in LOIs.

Narine is a pinch hitter- he is definitely not an AR at the international level in any format.

 

[Abdullah719]

Narine and Ashwin are both AR's.

Ashwin has Test centuries away from home batting at no. 6.

Narine has incredible hitting power and has played blinders in the IPL. He is also an AR>

This is subjective based on your definition of an all-rounder.

Ashwin is rarely of use in ODIs as a batsman unless perhaps there a situation where he needs to bat conservatively which rarely happens with India.

I know Narine has been used in T20 leagues up the order but he still has a top international score of 36...

 

[Rayyman]

But why don't the same factors affect legspin?

Leg spin is the real deal. Off-spin is for noobs.

 

[msb314]

Leg spin is the real deal. Off-spin is for noobs.

Why is that?

 

[mmkextreme_1]

Leg spin is the real deal. Off-spin is for noobs.

What makes you say that? It's an offspinner that holds the record to fastest 100 (only in regards to a spinner), 150, 200, and 250 wickets in ODI cricket. Saying off-spin is for noobs is far from the truth.

 

[Convict]

What makes you say that? It's an offspinner that holds the record to fastest 100 (only in regards to a spinner), 150, 200, and 250 wickets in ODI cricket. Saying off-spin is for noobs is far from the truth.

Right arm finger spin is the least threatening of all the spin bowling because 1. they generally don't spin it much and 2. they spin it the wrong way against right handed batsmen. Though in ODI this isn't an issue because being able to control the run rate can itself be offensive.

The reason so many right arm finger spinners were "chucking" was because of this - as being able to spin it the other way finally gave them an offensive strike weapon.

That said a good off spinner is a good bowler anyway its just that his arsenal is going to be a lot smaller than a wrist spinners.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

That seems to be the trend nowadays.

Most teams hardly play specialist spinners in LOI/T20's anymore.

Only see Herath, Badree turn up for their teams from time to time but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

India play Ashwin and Jadeja who are both AR's.

NZ play Santner who is also an AR.

Pakistan play Hafeez and Imad who are both AR's (we don't play Yasir any more the shorter forms of the game)

Australia have Maxwell, Smithand Head who are all AR's (Lyon plays occasionally but is not a regular starter)

SL have Herath as the only specialist spinner but he is near the end of his career.

England have Dawson but he is not a regular starter anyway (Rashid and Moeen are AR's)

WI have Narine but he is also an AR (Badree is the only pure specialist spinner)

SAF has Tahir as a specialist but no one else.

Why the change in trend from the days of Murli, Saqlain, Kumble, Harbhajan and Warne?

Why is not being able to bat a qualification? Obv it's an improvement that they know how to bat.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

Ashwin has shown ability with the bat in tests, but he is not an AR in LOIs.

Narine is a pinch hitter- he is definitely not an AR at the international level in any format.

He is a T20 allrounder 100%. Unless you have a very out-dated definition of that term.

 

[troodon]

Finger spinners and slow left armies are useless in LOI's.

You need a potent wrong'un to keep the batsmen in the crease and keep him guessing. That is why you need leggies in he team. Offies will get destroyed in ODI's and T20's that offer no spin these days.