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Defend or chase against England?

Mamoon said:
We can only score 300 by "limping", and we did it against the same opposition in the last ODI that we played on this venue. Yes, playing a dead rubber is not the same as playing a semifinal, but a total of 300 can be achieved.
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trust me, bilateral game and ICC knock out game are completely different. Moreover condition is different between then and now. now you are playing on an used wicket which would grip a bit. even the game against SL, par score was about 260 or 270. now you are playing on a same wicket, it should be about 250 or 260 max.
 
IMMY69 said:
That was a dead rubber. We were four down in the series.
This is a semi final game. Chalk and cheese
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Ok, then did you watch Pak vs NZ 2009 CT Semifinal?

We batted first and set 234 to chase, which we weren't able to defend despite having a quality bowling attack in front of a comparatively weak batting lineup, so how do you suppose we can do that against a team which arguably has the best batting line?

Fact is, batting first makes our batting even more tuk tuk than it is actually and a big total seems like a dream only. Chasing is the only way to win.
 
Mamoon said:
This England batting lineup does not slow down, and that is why they have been so brutal in batting out teams. All of their batsmen (with the exception of Root) come out all guns blazing, and if two of them click, game over for the opposition. Since they do not consolidate even when wickets tumble, the opposition captain is under constant pressure. The other day, Smith looked helpless even when England are 50 for 3.

In addition, we have to play to our strengths. We simply cannot chase anything beyond 250 under pressure, and we cannot restrict them to anything below that.
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That is exactly why we should chase.

Under relentless pressure - our entire bowling unit will do a Wahab and lose the plot completely. Bowling first at least we have a chance with a few early wickets with the new ball. We can hope to consolidate and bowl defensively on a flat pitch if it comes to that but we will have no such luxury if England are chasing since they will come out all guns blazing and demolish our bowling.
 
Arsalan Pro said:
Ok, then did you watch Pak vs NZ 2009 CT Semifinal?

We batted first and set 234 to chase, which we weren't able to defend despite having a quality bowling attack in front of a comparatively weak batting lineup, so how do you suppose we can do that against a team which arguably has the best batting line?

Fact is, batting first makes our batting even more tuk tuk than it is actually and a big total seems like a dream only. Chasing is the only way to win.
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We could have won that game if it wasn't for a crucial dropped catch.

Have you seen how we bat when chasing? Out of our top 6 only FAkhar and Safaraz look in any touch.
We are completely devoid of confidence and any semblance of score board pressure would decimate our lineup.

Batting first takes that burden off of our shoulders. Our week minded batsmen can actually just bat without having to keep up with a run rate.. plus the way our bowling has performed in the last two games it will give our batsmen confidence.

Just because we crept over the line against Sri Lanka doesn't make us good chasers. If anything we are renowned for being a pathetic chasing side. This is largely do with our mental weaknesses..

On the other hand, Rngland have been flying. If they bat first they'll know that they can go hard and that even if they lose wickets, 250 would still be a winning score with our batters.

Plus it's a used wicket and a knock out game.. why on earth would you choose to chase unless its cloudy and there is grass on the wicket.
 
Chasing makes absolutely zero sense.

We can bat second and there is still a chance that we may win but I'm shocked by the logic given here for chasing a total rather then setting one.

If Rngland in the toss and I'd put money on it that they'll opt to bat first.
 
Prince of Pakistan said:
Fakhar Zaman is going to face serious short stuff from Wood, Plunkett. Be aware Fakhar!
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Lol Plunkett is gully mohalla level bowler, the only reason he is hyped is because he is an English cricketer and they hype their cricketers to the moon. English bowling is Ok, Wood is the biggest threat. Their batting is what is winning them matches.
 
If I was England captain I would bat first... putting Pakistan in to bat will only give them a sniff with the bowlers that Pakistan possess and given the conditions.
 
Chase should be the way to go. Think about it this way, the English batting strategy is attack at all costs, now if we snag a few quick wickets the batsmen will still try to attack to reach that phanthom insurmountable total and in the process may overdo the attacking bit and perish cheaply.
 
Has to be chase, although our batting line up is fragile, our best chances come with chasing. Batting first we will score a moderate 200 and something score, which shouldn't cause england too many worries. However if england bat 1st and we limit them under 300, I think we have a good chance, atleast a better chance to chase it down.
 
I think its not even about defending or chasing. Its about restricting England below 250 somehow.

If they bat first we wont chase anything close to 250 in such a pressure game.

If we bat first, we have to bowl our heart out to take early wickets to stay in the game or else they will murder our bowlers and chase the whatever modest target of 240-250 our weak batting unit would have set, in the 40th over.

May God help us!!
 
If the wicket is dry, take advantage of it batting first and we are capable of defending a decent score like 270+.

if the rain is in forecast and won the toss, then chase. The wet ball will not reverse or spin.
 
Mamoon said:
This England batting lineup does not slow down, and that is why they have been so brutal in batting out teams. All of their batsmen (with the exception of Root) come out all guns blazing, and if two of them click, game over for the opposition. Since they do not consolidate even when wickets tumble, the opposition captain is under constant pressure. The other day, Smith looked helpless even when England are 50 for 3.
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That's exactly the reason, why defending a target against England would be harder than chasing down a sub-par score. It's not just England, most modern ODI teams have learned how to score risk-free runs, even when going down to #8 batsman. The old style of 'scoreboard pressure' when chasing, doesn't apply (or only does so for Pakistani batsmen). Asking opposition to bat first means that if we get early wickets, the middle and lower order may gift us a few more in trying to set an uncertain target. When batting second, the opposition will have far fewer uncertainties.

In addition, we have to play to our strengths. We simply cannot chase anything beyond 250 under pressure, and we cannot restrict them to anything below that.
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Our strength is bowling. Chances of restricting England under 250-260 are orders of magnitude greater than our chances of scoring 330+ when batting first.

Bowling first at least give us some chance, and another benefit is that you get to know half-way through, if there's any point following the match further.
 
NA said:
That's exactly the reason, why defending a target against England would be harder than chasing down a sub-par score. It's not just England, most modern ODI teams have learned how to score risk-free runs, even when going down to #8 batsman. The old style of 'scoreboard pressure' when chasing, doesn't apply (or only does so for Pakistani batsmen). Asking opposition to bat first means that if we get early wickets, the middle and lower order may gift us a few more in trying to set an uncertain target. When batting second, the opposition will have far fewer uncertainties.



Our strength is bowling. Chances of restricting England under 250-260 are orders of magnitude greater than our chances of scoring 330+ when batting first.

Bowling first at least give us some chance, and another benefit is that you get to know half-way through, if there's any point following the match further.
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Well I don't have faith in our batting to chase any meaningful target, and I don't expect the bowlers to bowl out a team for <250 for the third successive innings.
 
In my view the most suitable batting order and line up against England will be the following.
1)Fakhar(20)
2)Azam(59)
3)Sarfraz(54)
4)Harris(48)
5)Malik(69)
6)Imad(3)
7)Ashraf(46)
8)Shadab(30)
9) Amir(25)
10)Hassan
11)Junaid
354-8(50)
 
We need to chase. Even if we set England 300 they'll go all out guns blazing. We need to bowl well first, keep them to 250-280 and then bat sensibly.
 
Asif khan said:
Like last year or in UAE over the last few tours when they were cruising past 300 and the odd 444 against us? Our bowling CANNOT contain their batsmen, period!
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It will be worse if we are made to chase even 250.
 
It's going to be a fairly warm day with the sun shining and if we're playing on a used pitch expect the spinners and reverse swing to come in to play. I say bat first and you never know England might choke under the pressure.
 
Play each tournament or match according to your strengths. By bowling first we are utilizing our strength right away. If we bat first and get skittled out for 200, this will give our bowlers less confidence going out there.

Obviously this is not a long term strategy as Pakistan must revolutionize their batting in the future, but with the current resources and situation they are in, you just have to work with it.
 
England has to perform below par for pakistan to have chances.pakistan has to bat first if it wins the toss and score around 300 and expect english batsmen lose their brains.how i wish pakistan wins it though only a miracle can see it home.
 
Considering Srafaraz is the captain, he usually prefers chasing so I wont be surprised if he does the same. Although I want them to bat first in this match, although the question is what if Morgan wins the toss I guess he is gonna chase.

Shadab might be the turning point of this game.
 
Pakistan team should chase because england can chase anything, they have players who can play at any strike rate they calculate. And bowlers will be in less pressure if they will be bowling first.
 
Chase is the way to go.Resrtict them to less than 260.Bowling is good enough to do the job.Have faith in bowlers.
#no mercy #18 june
 
IMMY69 said:
I've been around for far longer then ten years.
Your post however tells me that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever.

It's a semi final, any side chasing would feel pressure let alone Pakistan who can fold for next to nothing chasing a next to nothing score.

Ten years?? Let's see.
2011 we lost to India in knock out game chasing 260 odd when 300 was a par score.
In 2015 World Cup we beat South Africa in do or die Match defending a sub par score.

Then in the quarter final we folded cheaply but still put up a fight against the host nation and eventual winners.

Weather is forecast to be sunny with temperature in the low or mid 20's. It's the same wicket we just played on socits not fresh. If you've watched ten years of cricket you'll know that these sorts of wickets tend to slow up during the course of 50 overs which makes it harder to score in the second innings and also brings our spinners into it.

If the conditions are as expected batting first is absolutely the right thing to do.
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You can be around for 50 years, but all you've done is be around. You don't know the first thing about modern cricket which is very obvious from your posting.

The side batting first has very little chance of winning this match.

The point is even in the last 5 years the game has changed so much that your old-school logic is dead.

Sides like England that have abandoned it are the ones that are near the top now.
 
Looking at the behavioural trend of England pitches and Rain, we should go. Only chance to win is chase. We cant defend any score on these England pitches. In last few matches Teams have chased successfully even when they were 3 4 down early.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
You can be around for 50 years, but all you've done is be around. You don't know the first thing about modern cricket which is very obvious from your posting.

The side batting first has very little chance of winning this match.

The point is even in the last 5 years the game has changed so much that your old-school logic is dead.

Sides like England that have abandoned it are the ones that are near the top now.
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This. ICC seriously needs to do something to make it even for both the teams. Now a days it's almost like win toss and win match. Perhaps 30/40 runs can be added to the total in order to mitigate the initial disadvantages of the team that is batting first
 
Coconut said:
This. ICC seriously needs to do something to make it even for both the teams. Now a days it's almost like win toss and win match. Perhaps 30/40 runs can be added to the total in order to mitigate the initial disadvantages of the team that is batting first
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One suggestion has been a run auction.

That both sides will write in a sealed envelope how many runs they are willing to give away to get their preferred option and the one that bids higher gets their choice.
 
CricketAnalyst said:
You can be around for 50 years, but all you've done is be around. You don't know the first thing about modern cricket which is very obvious from your posting.

The side batting first has very little chance of winning this match.

The point is even in the last 5 years the game has changed so much that your old-school logic is dead.

Sides like England that have abandoned it are the ones that are near the top now.
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That is a stupid comment and I'll explain why
 
Coconut said:
This. ICC seriously needs to do something to make it even for both the teams. Now a days it's almost like win toss and win match. Perhaps 30/40 runs can be added to the total in order to mitigate the initial disadvantages of the team that is batting first[/QUOTE

All the wickets where England have scored big in the toubie have been fresh wickets.

Today's wicket is the rust used pitch they will be playing on.
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Morgan said yesterday during his press conference that he hoped he lost the toss because he had no clue what they'd be best doing on this wicket.
 
I am truly shocked by some of the comments on this thread.

A complete lack of understanding
 
Pakistan has been very poor while chasing, hence, bat first is the only best option for us.
 
Look at it this way, whatever you do you have to bowl England put for under 270 to have any chance. My view is you have a better chance doing that by setting them that target. It's a ICC Knockout in my view runs on the board have double the value.
 
saeedhk said:
Match has been lost because we will be chasing.Match gone!
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Lol. You are actually on top here and you don't even realize it.

Until the mentality and understanding of modern cricket changes India and Pakistan won't advance.

Lucky you have Arthur who has some understanding.
 
This is what I've said so many times. (141/4 after 32 now)

Pakistan can boss the first half when bowling first and then anyone can chase mediocre scores like 250/260.
 
If anyone STILL thinks Pakistan should bat first against these top teams, you guys need to stop following cricket or just admit that you don't understand the nuances of the game.
 
I'll be the first one to put my hands up.

I was wrong and I'm over the moon that I was wrong.
 
cricketInsight said:
Fact is Pakistan cannot win this match regardless how well we plan. But there is still some hope - hope that England can lose this match. The chances of that happening is with Pakistan bowling first.

English batting is so good that they may set their sights on 330-340 and may not alter plans even after losing a couple of early wickets. Then our spinners come on and on this used pitch apply their choke. And the more England tries to reach 330 they more mistakes they make and end up setting Pakistan a target of 246.

Which surely will be a breeze for us :15:
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you called it :19:
 
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