Depraved brothers led Telford paedophile ring that groomed and prostituted young girls

[Robert]

Agree with most of that, so in essence we are talking about uneducated yokels who's family probably migrated from really backward regions of Pakistan. If you ever watched The Wire which is based in some God-forsaken towers in Baltimore, you see feral black youths living similar pathetic lives fuelled by drugs and alcohol.

I can guarantee you the white girls in these incidents will be from the white version of low income, poorly educated families living in the region. So when they are hanging around street corners, getting picked up and plied with drink by older men, is it because they are white? Similarly, we know there is a sex trade in East Asia where European men will spend plenty of money travelling to buy the services of underage girls away from the public eye. Is it because they are white?

As I posted before.

It's because of decades of social breakdown due to lack of investment in education, low wages, and lack of opportunities.

It's because these predators can get at the young girls, knowing they have little in the way of support networks, due to absent parents and weak social services due to years of underfunding, knowing that their poor communication skills mean that Police are unlikely to take their complaints seriously.

It's because these guys assert a false sense of moral superiority and see these white girls as immoral trash.

I worked with some at-risk inner London youngsters. Mostly they needed a bit of guidance, emotional support and role models. They developed more self-awareness and self-esteem and gravitate towards decent men instead of abusers.

 

[James]

In many other European nations its even lower at 14! So a 17 year old male man can lawfully have sexual relations with a 14 year who may not have passed puberty.

Liberals have made laws to suit their own sick desires, paedophile is common in Europe with it being legal .

Give it a few years and these liberals will declare Pedophilia is natural like homosexually with a genetic deposition.

In the 1970s there was a group in the UK called P.I.E (the Paedophile Information Exchange) which actively campaigned for the age of consent being abolished altogether. Numerous politicians with liberal views supported the group in a clandestine manner.

 

[Robert]

In the 1970s there was a group in the UK called P.I.E (the Paedophile Information Exchange) which actively campaigned for the age of consent being abolished altogether. Numerous politicians with liberal views supported the group in a clandestine manner.

I read that the young Harriet Harman was legal advisor to the National Council for Civil Liberties which had links with PIE and had lobbied Parliament on their behalf. Patricia Hewitt was NCCL general secretary.

Baroness Chakrabarti notes with disgust and horror that the NCCL (which became Liberty) was expelling paedophiles as late as 1983.

Some naive Young Liberals of that era were in favour of PIE but their Chairman Peter Hain (later Blair's NI Secretary) publicly denounced the PIE.

It was a less aware time. Monty Python made jokes about perverting innocent little boys. It was considered by many to be something a bit shabby and shameful and nasty, but something that went on anyway. It was brushed under the table as a lot of sex was then. It was not anathema to decent society, like it is now.

 

[Saj]

I think you worded that quite badly, initially on reading the first sentence I thought you meant that the parents were in cahoots with their sons in grooming young girls and they were in on it together. Even so, I doubt any father would be indulging in paedophilia openly for the kids to be learning by example.

What I'm saying is that the parents are hardly angelic and innocent and more often than not turn a blind eye to what their kids are doing.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

This is such a widespread issue among mostly Pakistanis it really does beg the questions.

However the ringleaders in Huddersfield were sikhs but that was swept under as their gang was full of Pakistanis

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

As I posted before.

It's because of decades of social breakdown due to lack of investment in education, low wages, and lack of opportunities.

It's because these predators can get at the young girls, knowing they have little in the way of support networks, due to absent parents and weak social services due to years of underfunding, knowing that their poor communication skills mean that Police are unlikely to take their complaints seriously.

It's because these guys assert a false sense of moral superiority and see these white girls as immoral trash.

I worked with some at-risk inner London youngsters. Mostly they needed a bit of guidance, emotional support and role models. They developed more self-awareness and self-esteem and gravitate towards decent men instead of abusers.

This is all true, but education, support networks and guidance for low income whites costs money. In Britain we have it better than many countries in that we have social welfare. In theory this is available for non-whites as well of course, but then it's seen as spongeing off the system.

Also we've seen many Pakistani posters blaming parents for not being vigilant in policing their boys, so how do we judge white parents who don't care where their girls are at late hours? Could be they are too busy feeding their own addictions to worry too much about much else.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

What I'm saying is that the parents are hardly angelic and innocent and more often than not turn a blind eye to what their kids are doing.

Well yes. There are bad parents around, it's not a new phenomena, and it's an age old problem which societies across the world have suffered from. In Britain for example, you'd probably find more capable parents in Winchester than in Toxteth.

 

[Zaz]

The common theme here ( on both sides, victim and perpetrators) is the lack of education, low income families and a poor family upbringing where the parents are either absent physically or emotionally from their childrens lives Its a perfect storm

I live in the uk and ive seen first hand A lot of uk pakistanis are failing due to their upbringing The village mentality is lived here

Kids have a dad usually from pakistan who they cant connect to, they live is socially deprived areas, they fail at school and dont learn professional skills, they are then married to their cousins from pakistan who are also uneducated and most men end up in takeaways or taxis Rinse and repeat

A lot in the community just arent trying to better themselves in a morally or legal way The opportunity is there but without direction from the parents it just isnt taken

You go into most northern industrial towns and you will see this Poor parenting, Deprivation, A lack of Education Pakistanis and Crime

It isnt coincidence Its a failing on the community who need to do perform a better upbringing and set them up for a better future for their children

 

[Justcrazy]

The people who are proven to have done such crimes should be punished in an exemplary manner .

 

[Robert]

This is all true, but education, support networks and guidance for low income whites costs money. In Britain we have it better than many countries in that we have social welfare. In theory this is available for non-whites as well of course, but then it's seen as spongeing off the system.

Also we've seen many Pakistani posters blaming parents for not being vigilant in policing their boys, so how do we judge white parents who don't care where their girls are at late hours? Could be they are too busy feeding their own addictions to worry too much about much else.

We could afford it all if we chose. The social welfare bet is now full of holes. This government likes to channel public funds into the hands of their cronies and donors.

I don’t blame addicts for their addiction. We should treat them with love and support to try to help them get well.

I don’t blame Pakistani parents for any criminal
actions by their adult sons.

 

[Technics 1210]

In the 1970s there was a group in the UK called P.I.E (the Paedophile Information Exchange) which actively campaigned for the age of consent being abolished altogether. Numerous politicians with liberal views supported the group in a clandestine manner.

Liberalism is the most dangerous ideology known to man.

 

[Stewie]

By the same logic Indian men IN India are prone to rape because they are Indian.

Blacks in America are more prone to crime because they are black.

White Elites in the west are more prone to paedophilia because they are white elites.

Btw nobody calls themselves ex pats lol. But you're the chap who was telling others to get vaccinated but later realised you being vaccinated are as much as risk to your elderly parents as those who are not. Release this sheepish mentality you live by watching CNN and such nonsense and start to learn to think for yourself.

British Pakistanis can continue living with their heads buried in the sand if they want. There is a very good reason why they are the bottom of the barrel in the British society with the criminal element coming more and ore to the fore now. Thinking not getting vaccinated and not watching CNN will somehow help your current predicament but it won’t.

Learn from the very few amongst you who are doing well. Try to see what they are doing differently from you. Educate yourself. Stop being personal with people who point out your flaws and most of all stop making assumptions that make you look like an idiot.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

British Pakistanis can continue living with their heads buried in the sand if they want. There is a very good reason why they are the bottom of the barrel in the British society with the criminal element coming more and ore to the fore now. Thinking not getting vaccinated and not watching CNN will somehow help your current predicament but it won’t.

Learn from the very few amongst you who are doing well. Try to see what they are doing differently from you. Educate yourself. Stop being personal with people who point out your flaws and most of all stop making assumptions that make you look like an idiot.

No one has their heads buried in the sand though, we acknowledge that there are some rotten apples among our numbers, and it is disturbing that there seems to be a pattern evolved over time. Beyond that though I am not sure what it is you expect from the rest of the community. It's not our job to tell people they should be solicitors rather than taxi drivers. Most British Pakistanis tend to have more than average ready cash available, generally they aren't living in the dives either, those are usually occupied by the Romanians, Afghans or Africans. Even the Mirpuris who tend to get the most criticism own successful businesses across the country.

This eagerness to tar the whole community by the actions of the worst examples is disturbing. I ask again, would you do the same for the whites who indulge in paedophilia abroad in Asia? I mean surely you should judge white people by that standards, let's face it, they created the porn industry.

 

[topspin]

British Pakistanis can continue living with their heads buried in the sand if they want. There is a very good reason why they are the bottom of the barrel in the British society with the criminal element coming more and ore to the fore now. Thinking not getting vaccinated and not watching CNN will somehow help your current predicament but it won’t.

Learn from the very few amongst you who are doing well. Try to see what they are doing differently from you. Educate yourself. Stop being personal with people who point out your flaws and most of all stop making assumptions that make you look like an idiot.

Completely agree with this. Unfortunately the uneducated and ignorant members of the British Pakistani society bring their pind mindset from back home to the UK.

As they keep telling themselves (like they do back home), everything seems to be a conspiracy against Pakistanis and "the world is against us". No wonder British Pakistanis lag behind their American counterparts. Shameful state of affairs.

This victim mentality needs to stop. It's time to acknowledge to problem rather than comparing Indians from back home.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Completely agree with this. Unfortunately the uneducated and ignorant members of the British Pakistani society bring their pind mindset from back home to the UK.

As they keep telling themselves (like they do back home), everything seems to be a conspiracy against Pakistanis and "the world is against us". No wonder British Pakistanis lag behind their American counterparts. Shameful state of affairs.

This victim mentality needs to stop. It's time to acknowledge to problem rather than comparing Indians from back home.

Where has anybody said anything like that in this thread? This just seems like another rant against British Pakistanis in general, again no solutions and nothing constructive.

 

[Technics 1210]

No surprise Bangladeshis and Indians are out in their droves in this thread.

 

[topspin]

Where has anybody said anything like that in this thread? This just seems like another rant against British Pakistanis in general, again no solutions and nothing constructive.

A good start would be for us to stop getting defensive. Until then there is no pathway for progression.

Just because no one is explicitly mentioning "the world is against us" or "there is a conspiracy against Pakistanis", the victim mentality is clear for everyone to see.

If this paedophile ring were of non-Pakistani origin, the sentiment would be very different on here.

 

[Zaz]

No one has their heads buried in the sand though, we acknowledge that there are some rotten apples among our numbers, and it is disturbing that there seems to be a pattern evolved over time. Beyond that though I am not sure what it is you expect from the rest of the community. It's not our job to tell people they should be solicitors rather than taxi drivers. Most British Pakistanis tend to have more than average ready cash available, generally they aren't living in the dives either, those are usually occupied by the Romanians, Afghans or Africans. Even the Mirpuris who tend to get the most criticism own successful businesses across the country.

This eagerness to tar the whole community by the actions of the worst examples is disturbing. I ask again, would you do the same for the whites who indulge in paedophilia abroad in Asia? I mean surely you should judge white people by that standards, let's face it, they created the porn industry.

But dont you see a pattern here Cpt or are you ignoring the fact that these gangs in hudderfield, oxford, telford, rotherham, rochdale etc all come from the pakistani descent community? Its a lot higher percentage involved in this sort of crime than the pakistani population in the uk That isnt a coincidence

If things are to improve some introspection is needed rather than getting defensive when people.point it out There is an issue with how some people are bringing up their children and it needs to be highligted

You have said it yourself there is money in the community but how is it earnt? Taxes arent paid in a lot of cases and its under the mattress sort of thing from taxis, takeaways and benefits Bending the rules and govt laws isnt frowned upon but accepted

There are other communities in the uk who aspire to better themselves when they come here Why isnt the pakistani community?

If kids are seeing this sort of thing is it any surprise they end up with the wrong mentaliy when they grow up?

 

[Technics 1210]

Riddle me this, why aren't Pakistanis caught in Europe/USA? Never heard of a Pakistani grooming gang/ring exposed outside of the UK in the West. Must be something specific to UK then?

 

[Bewal Express]

But dont you see a pattern here Cpt or are you ignoring the fact that these gangs in hudderfield, oxford, telford, rotherham, rochdale etc all come from the pakistani descent community? Its a lot higher percentage involved in this sort of crime than the pakistani population in the uk That isnt a coincidence

If things are to improve some introspection is needed rather than getting defensive when people.point it out There is an issue with how some people are bringing up their children and it needs to be highligted

You have said it yourself there is money in the community but how is it earnt? Taxes arent paid in a lot of cases and its under the mattress sort of thing from taxis, takeaways and benefits Bending the rules and govt laws isnt frowned upon but accepted

There are other communities in the uk who aspire to better themselves when they come here Why isnt the pakistani community?

If kids are seeing this sort of thing is it any surprise they end up with the wrong mentaliy when they grow up?

Good post.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

A good start would be for us to stop getting defensive. Until then there is no pathway for progression.

Just because no one is explicitly mentioning "the world is against us" or "there is a conspiracy against Pakistanis", the victim mentality is clear for everyone to see.

If this paedophile ring were of non-Pakistani origin, the sentiment would be very different on here.

More buzzword drivel instead of actual debate.

"Defensive!"
Conspiracy theories!"
"Victim mentality!"

You've reeled off most of them in the space of a couple of posts mate, got any left in the locker?

Don't bother actually asking any real questions though, I know you get wound up when certain nationalities get some back.

 

[Stewie]

Here is another thought:_
Reason#(i lost track) why British Pakistanis are lagging behind other minorities in the UK compared with Pakistanis in the US

I blame it partially on the abuse of the social welfare systems in place in the UK. They lose to abuse them, council housing, child care credit, whatever else is out there. These programs are wonderful and designed to help you get up on your feet. They are not meant for you to slack, be lazy, decide thats all you want in life and not do anything to improve your situation and get to a place where you dont have to rely on them. When you are brought up by folks who abuse such programs, is it any surprise you would think making money illegally is ok?

In USA, we dont have any such schemes, so automatically everybody has to work to put food on the table and afford rent. There are some schemes that try to help impoverished families but they are not as flamboyant as UK's with council housing and this and that. You get food stamps you can use at the grocery store and maybe some assistance to pay your bills but its usually pretty small amounts. Still Pakistanis try to abuse them here, so I wont simply find fault with UK Pakistanis on this one because as a nation a vast majority of our people like to cut corners and game the system. However if there is no game available nothing can be done about it. So I am not giving any credit here to US Pakistanis for their decent behavior in this regard.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But dont you see a pattern here Cpt or are you ignoring the fact that these gangs in hudderfield, oxford, telford, rotherham, rochdale etc all come from the pakistani descent community? Its a lot higher percentage involved in this sort of crime than the pakistani population in the uk That isnt a coincidence

If things are to improve some introspection is needed rather than getting defensive when people.point it out There is an issue with how some people are bringing up their children and it needs to be highligted

You have said it yourself there is money in the community but how is it earnt? Taxes arent paid in a lot of cases and its under the mattress sort of thing from taxis, takeaways and benefits Bending the rules and govt laws isnt frowned upon but accepted

There are other communities in the uk who aspire to better themselves when they come here Why isnt the pakistani community?

If kids are seeing this sort of thing is it any surprise they end up with the wrong mentaliy when they grow up?

Yes I did say it was strange that there seemed to be a pattern around the country, and I invited people to give their reasons why that might be the case. We've had some people saying parents are encouraging it which I've already disagreed with and given reasons why. Your example of bending the rules re taxation is a classic example of stereotyping by the way. Cash businesses are rife to under declaring across the board. Are you telling me all the tradesmen like gardeners, painters, builders and plumbers provide everyone with a VAT invoice? Because I'm going to tell you now mate, you don't live in the real world.

None of this is "defensive", it's just plain deconstruction of what is being presented. So if we want to get answers we need to look objectively at why. My own opinion is that these are the worst people in our society, but the really curious aspect is that it has spread to different towns. Almost like there is some sort of private WhatsApp group where taxi drivers are spreading the message. I wonder why no one asks questions like that?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Here is another thought:_
Reason#(i lost track) why British Pakistanis are lagging behind other minorities in the UK compared with Pakistanis in the US

I blame it partially on the abuse of the social welfare systems in place in the UK. They lose to abuse them, council housing, child care credit, whatever else is out there. These programs are wonderful and designed to help you get up on your feet. They are not meant for you to slack, be lazy, decide thats all you want in life and not do anything to improve your situation and get to a place where you dont have to rely on them. When you are brought up by folks who abuse such programs, is it any surprise you would think making money illegally is ok?

In USA, we dont have any such schemes, so automatically everybody has to work to put food on the table and afford rent. There are some schemes that try to help impoverished families but they are not as flamboyant as UK's with council housing and this and that. You get food stamps you can use at the grocery store and maybe some assistance to pay your bills but its usually pretty small amounts. Still Pakistanis try to abuse them here, so I wont simply find fault with UK Pakistanis on this one because as a nation a vast majority of our people like to cut corners and game the system. However if there is no game available nothing can be done about it. So I am not giving any credit here to US Pakistanis for their decent behavior in this regard.

Just a heads up on this one, English girls used to get knocked up (quite often under-age) and then live separately from their boyfriends so they could claim much bigger handouts as single mums. I'm not sure if this is still going on as I don't come across those areas any more, but I don't see why not. Gaming the system isn't a racial thing. Sri Lankans are buying up all the licquor stores and doing the same thing, under declaring sales to avoid big VAT bills.

That doesn't make any of it right, I'm just saying this isn't the reason for grooming. I do actually agree with you that social welfare often leads to abuse.

 

[Zaz]

No parents want their kids to become abusers and there isnt one thing that would lead someone down this path With the pakistani community it seems to be a multi faceted issue where several factors combine to create the perfect storm

Being brought up in socially deprived areas, a lack of education and morals, lack of job opportunity, getting mixed up in the wrong crowd, absence of hands on parenting, welfare abuse, being taught lack of respect for women esp white girls, wanting fast money, difficulty in accessing sex, dealing in drugs and general crime, forced marriages, parents kids cant relate to

These are all issues which are possibly combining to cause certain groups in the pakistani population to go down this path

 

[Saj]

Completely agree with this. Unfortunately the uneducated and ignorant members of the British Pakistani society bring their pind mindset from back home to the UK.

As they keep telling themselves (like they do back home), everything seems to be a conspiracy against Pakistanis and "the world is against us". No wonder British Pakistanis lag behind their American counterparts. Shameful state of affairs.

This victim mentality needs to stop. It's time to acknowledge to problem rather than comparing Indians from back home.

Indeed.

Add to the mix that many haven't been in the UK long and think they can go there and do whatever they want.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

To use a crude analogy, they're like kids in a sweet shop. That's what happens when you have a retrograde culture, where religion is about restraint and the culture is infested by foreign culture anathema to the traditional values. Parents producing children and then not knowing how to raise them.

 

[Bewal Express]

To use a crude analogy, they're like kids in a sweet shop. That's what happens when you have a retrograde culture, where religion is about restraint and the culture is infested by foreign culture anathema to the traditional values. Parents producing children and then not knowing how to raise them.

Are you talking about Ind rapists? Don't you guys have a massive problem with violent rape in Ind?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No parents want their kids to become abusers and there isnt one thing that would lead someone down this path With the pakistani community it seems to be a multi faceted issue where several factors combine to create the perfect storm

Being brought up in socially deprived areas, a lack of education and morals, lack of job opportunity, getting mixed up in the wrong crowd, absence of hands on parenting, welfare abuse, being taught lack of respect for women esp white girls, wanting fast money, difficulty in accessing sex, dealing in drugs and general crime, forced marriages, parents kids cant relate to

These are all issues which are possibly combining to cause certain groups in the pakistani population to go down this path

To be clear, there is no excuse for what these guys have done, it makes the skin crawl to be perfectly honest. But unless there is something concrete where we can say, yes this is the reason why it's Pakistanis who are doing this, then it's basically slandering a community on the back of their worst people. Then for the sake of impartiality, we should be able to attach a national or racial flag to all communities on the back of their reprobates.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Are you talking about Ind rapists? Don't you guys have a massive problem with violent rape in Ind?

I was watching a video of a young couple who make holiday vlogs, they are touring Asia, and I watched one on India, and while they mostly were positive, they made a video of the downsides...and guess what the main one was? The guys in some parts of India were basically pervs. Touching up the girlfriend or giving them hostile stares. The girlfriend looks Asian but she's actually Brazilian and she needed the guy around to feel safe.

Now are we going to say it's because they are Pakistani?

 

[Bewal Express]

I was watching a video of a young couple who make holiday vlogs, they are touring Asia, and I watched one on India, and while they mostly were positive, they made a video of the downsides...and guess what the main one was? The guys in some parts of India were basically pervs. Touching up the girlfriend or giving them hostile stares. The girlfriend looks Asian but she's actually Brazilian and she needed the guy around to feel safe.

Now are we going to say it's because they are Pakistani?

No doubt there is a big ( and I am reluctant to use that word because it implies the law abiding people like me, you and other people of PK or are responsible for the behaviour of these cretins) but its gets my goat when I see Inds commenting here and on other forums when they have a problem which is much worse. Do I blame the average Ind, off course I dont, but if they will generalise then so will I.

 

[Zaz]

To be clear, there is no excuse for what these guys have done, it makes the skin crawl to be perfectly honest. But unless there is something concrete where we can say, yes this is the reason why it's Pakistanis who are doing this, then it's basically slandering a community on the back of their worst people. Then for the sake of impartiality, we should be able to attach a national or racial flag to all communities on the back of their reprobates.

No one is slandering a whole community but when pakistani names keep coming up year after year we shouldnt just shrug our shoulders and put it down to coincedence we should accept there is an issue

Like youve said its a minority that is committing these crimes but proportionally its high

Its still something that needs addressing as it doesnt sit right why pakistani boys names keep popping up on these crimes

You still havent given a answer for this because there isnt one answer specific when the issue is so complex and multifaceted

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No one is slandering a whole community but when pakistani names keep coming up year after year we shouldnt just shrug our shoulders and put it down to coincedence we should accept there is an issue

Like youve said its a minority that is committing these crimes but proportionally its high

Its still something that needs addressing as it doesnt sit right why pakistani boys names keep popping up on these crimes

You still havent given a answer for this because there isnt one answer specific when the issue is so complex and multifaceted

I did give an answer in post #39, but I also saw a lot of truths in Robert's post #32. If you combine those two I think you get a pretty good idea of what is happening. If you want to refute any of those points I made then please quote me and we can look at it in depth.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Also I never said it was coincidence, I specifically said it was strange that it was happening in more than one town, almost as if there was some sort of social media group where these people exchange ideas. This is just plain inaccurate. Use the quote function and highlight what I say and address what I actually say, not what you think I say.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

The common theme here ( on both sides, victim and perpetrators) is the lack of education, low income families and a poor family upbringing where the parents are either absent physically or emotionally from their childrens lives Its a perfect storm

I live in the uk and ive seen first hand A lot of uk pakistanis are failing due to their upbringing The village mentality is lived here

Kids have a dad usually from pakistan who they cant connect to, they live is socially deprived areas, they fail at school and dont learn professional skills, they are then married to their cousins from pakistan who are also uneducated and most men end up in takeaways or taxis Rinse and repeat

A lot in the community just arent trying to better themselves in a morally or legal way The opportunity is there but without direction from the parents it just isnt taken

You go into most northern industrial towns and you will see this Poor parenting, Deprivation, A lack of Education Pakistanis and Crime

It isnt coincidence Its a failing on the community who need to do perform a better upbringing and set them up for a better future for their children

You are perhaps the first one who bravely said it all.

I visited UK quite a few times and was very disappointed and frustrated to see the general lifestyle of many Pakistanis I met and saw.

But every time I tried to raise this concern, I was met with knee jerk reactions by almost all who felt offended and lived in denial.

I read some stats where it was studied that the highest number of UNSKILLED labor in UK is the English youth of Pakistani origin.

Wasnt surprising.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You are perhaps the first one who bravely said it all.

I visited UK quite a few times and was very disappointed and frustrated to see the general lifestyle of many Pakistanis I met and saw.

But every time I tried to raise this concern, I was met with knee jerk reactions by almost all who felt offended and lived in denial.

I read some stats where it was studied that the highest number of UNSKILLED labor in UK is the English youth of Pakistani origin.

Wasnt surprising.

Did you ever try raising those concerns with white people of those northern industrial towns on your visits to the UK?

I'm guessing you and the guy you are quoting have very little interaction with those areas outside of the Pakistani community. Those you are passing judgement on actually live there. They may well be influenced by their surroundings in an attempt to integrate, did that ever cross your mind?

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Did you ever try raising those concerns with white people of those northern industrial towns on your visits to the UK?

I'm guessing you and the guy you are quoting have very little interaction with those areas outside of the Pakistani community. Those you are passing judgement on actually live there. They may well be influenced by their surroundings in an attempt to integrate, did that ever cross your mind?

No.

My oracle was a natural comparison between American youth of Pakistani origin and English youth of Pakistani origin.

How do the Indian kids generally[/] do as compared to Pakistani kids in UK? Academics? Entrepreneurship? business?

I think that will be a better comparison instead of whites in north.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

You are perhaps the first one who bravely said it all.

I visited UK quite a few times and was very disappointed and frustrated to see the general lifestyle of many Pakistanis I met and saw.

But every time I tried to raise this concern, I was met with knee jerk reactions by almost all who felt offended and lived in denial.

I read some stats where it was studied that the highest number of UNSKILLED labor in UK is the English youth of Pakistani origin.

Wasnt surprising.

Well that's simply not true but the reason is mostly Mirpuris are not very educated but that's too simplistic to begin with given many variations

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Intriguingly and quite bizarrely, Pakistani/Bangladeshi is a joint category..

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...pay-and-benefits/employment/employment/latest

 

[Colorblind Genius]

Intriguingly and quite bizarrely, Pakistani/Bangladeshi is a joint category..

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures...pay-and-benefits/employment/employment/latest

This is perhaps a different category which is somewhat better - I was talking about “unskilled labor” (whether employed or not is a different stat).

 

[SpiritOf1903]

This is perhaps a different category which is somewhat better - I was talking about “unskilled labor” (whether employed or not is a different stat).

So where you gathering this info from?.

I also believe the statistics of population is skewed, as the vast numbers of Indians in the Midlands is not always reflected in local authority statistics

 

[Robert]

Just a heads up on this one, English girls used to get knocked up (quite often under-age) and then live separately from their boyfriends so they could claim much bigger handouts as single mums. I'm not sure if this is still going on as I don't come across those areas any more, but I don't see why not.e.

Those would be very low education, very low expectations girls, often with drug dependence issues too. The fathers would be part if the same milieu and probably run away from their responsibility. Their children would be considered at-risk and perhaps be taken by the state.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No.

My oracle was a natural comparison between American youth of Pakistani origin and English youth of Pakistani origin.

How do the Indian kids generally[/] do as compared to Pakistani kids in UK? Academics? Entrepreneurship? business?

I think that will be a better comparison instead of whites in north.

Indians are generally invisible in the UK, they don't have much of a public profile. You mostly see them online( Pakistanii forums) and on the end of a phone line for tech support.

You might not want to hear about whites in the north, but these are the people at the brunt end of this topic. You can't integrate with them from a computer screen.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Those would be very low education, very low expectations girls, often with drug dependence issues too. The fathers would be part if the same milieu and probably run away from their responsibility. Their children would be considered at-risk and perhaps be taken by the state.

One thing I have noticed is that care home girls are targeted by the low lives. I've seen a couple of Hollywood movies where that has been the theme as well, in those the staff are usually the abusers. I know social services in the UK have come in for tremendous criticism in these cases but in my opinion they were just doing their jobs. It's the police playing the race card which has really rung alarm bells.

 

[Robert]

One thing I have noticed is that care home girls are targeted by the low lives. I've seen a couple of Hollywood movies where that has been the theme as well, in those the staff are usually the abusers. I know social services in the UK have come in for tremendous criticism in these cases but in my opinion they were just doing their jobs. It's the police playing the race card which has really rung alarm bells.

The BBC drama Three Girls is revealing of this phenomenon. Though one of the three girls of the title came from a stable and loving home, so blanket statements about at-risk girls don't cover the whole truth. Another of the three girls had learning difficulties and didn't realise she had been exploited - she thought she was in a loving relationship with the abusers. This was all based on social care records and court evidence.

 

[Bewal Express]

The BBC drama Three Girls is revealing of this phenomenon. Though one of the three girls of the title came from a stable and loving home, so blanket statements about at-risk girls don't cover the whole truth. Another of the three girls had learning difficulties and didn't realise she had been exploited - she thought she was in a loving relationship with the abusers. This was all based on social care records and court evidence.

One of the problems is that some of the girls actually like the thrill of being with these bad boys. Many years ago, I a student from my school hanging with the drug dealers. She was deaf and I feared for her. I reported it and the when her signer asked her, she said no one else was showing interest and she enjoyed being with them.

 

[Thulsa]

Indians are generally invisible in the UK, they don't have much of a public profile. You mostly see them online( Pakistanii forums) and on the end of a phone line for tech support.

You might not want to hear about whites in the north, but these are the people at the brunt end of this topic. You can't integrate with them from a computer screen.

Public profile is a fairly ambiguous term and I’d argue hardly a barometer of success or achievement. However from a literacy/education attainment perspective - UK Indians are leagues ahead of their UK Pakistani counterparts who are more in the lower end of the scale.

In the corporate world, senior management plus, it’s my experience that their are far more Indians (UK born and/or from abroad) compared to their Muslim counterparts.

It is interesting in that in other countries outside the SC, there is less of a gulf between such folk but in the UK it’s quite extreme.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Public profile is a fairly ambiguous term and I’d argue hardly a barometer of success or achievement. However from a literacy/education attainment perspective - UK Indians are leagues ahead of their UK Pakistani counterparts who are more in the lower end of the scale.

In the corporate world, senior management plus, it’s my experience that their are far more Indians (UK born and/or from abroad) compared to their Muslim counterparts.

It is interesting in that in other countries outside the SC, there is less of a gulf between such folk but in the UK it’s quite extreme.

i would agree, Indians are generally better educated, although the first wave of immigrants following partition where Punjabis from both sides of the border came here following the bloodshed, I would say there was not that much difference. Since the influx from Kashmir maybe we got a more rudimentary type who were less educated. Still, there's no argument Indians are more successful acamedically. Pakistanis have different qualities, maybe physically more athletic and generally more attractive. I guess everyone has their worth in one way or another.

 

[Stewie]

i would agree, Indians are generally better educated, although the first wave of immigrants following partition where Punjabis from both sides of the border came here following the bloodshed, I would say there was not that much difference. Since the influx from Kashmir maybe we got a more rudimentary type who were less educated. Still, there's no argument Indians are more successful acamedically. Pakistanis have different qualities, maybe physically more athletic and generally more attractive. I guess everyone has their worth in one way or another.

Agreed. Look nobody is saying all UK Pakistanis are paindoos (by the way being paindoo is not a derogatory term for me unless used in a derogatory context… here I mean someone coming from a pind), and even if you are a paindoo, I don’t generalize and say they are all “the problem” here. But a vast majority in the UK are turning out to be this way. Then there are others from urban backgrounds and even they are not all 100% model citizens but a majority is focused on a certain standard of life style or way of living which is more in line with society they are in.

Here is another interesting theory, [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION]:
Another difference in immigration patterns between Pakistan and India is that in Pakistan if you got money then it’s lots of money, there are relaxed tax laws and all, so the division between haves and have nots is much larger. etc so people with money don’t tend to immigrate because their lives are comfortable in Pakistan.. The vast majority of people who moved to the UK and US were lower class and I observed this pattern post 1990s or so although with UK like you said, the people from Kashmir areas had been moving there since even before partition. But in either case you have this trend where you are not getting the, for lack of a better term “cream of the crop”. There are those immigrating for education or career purposes but their numbers are not that high.

Compare that with India, where there is so much intense competition domestically for the educated, they tend to immigrate for greener pastures and their numbers are so high they tend to eclipse the lower class people even though their numbers do exist in those immigration numbers too. They have better tax reforms there and people are not hoarding wealth like they do in Pakistan. The income gap there might be a bit better in my opinion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Agreed. Look nobody is saying all UK Pakistanis are paindoos (by the way being paindoo is not a derogatory term for me unless used in a derogatory context… here I mean someone coming from a pind), and even if you are a paindoo, I don’t generalize and say they are all “the problem” here. But a vast majority in the UK are turning out to be this way. Then there are others from urban backgrounds and even they are not all 100% model citizens but a majority is focused on a certain standard of life style or way of living which is more in line with society they are in.

Here is another interesting theory, [MENTION=48620]Cpt. Rishwat[/MENTION]:
Another difference in immigration patterns between Pakistan and India is that in Pakistan if you got money then it’s lots of money, there are relaxed tax laws and all, so the division between haves and have nots is much larger. etc so people with money don’t tend to immigrate because their lives are comfortable in Pakistan.. The vast majority of people who moved to the UK and US were lower class and I observed this pattern post 1990s or so although with UK like you said, the people from Kashmir areas had been moving there since even before partition. But in either case you have this trend where you are not getting the, for lack of a better term “cream of the crop”. There are those immigrating for education or career purposes but their numbers are not that high.

Compare that with India, where there is so much intense competition domestically for the educated, they tend to immigrate for greener pastures and their numbers are so high they tend to eclipse the lower class people even though their numbers do exist in those immigration numbers too. They have better tax reforms there and people are not hoarding wealth like they do in Pakistan. The income gap there might be a bit better in my opinion.

Really? A vast majority are problems for the UK? How?

I don't mean to ignore the rest of a relatively well written post, but you can't throw that in there without backing it up.

 

[Robert]

One of the problems is that some of the girls actually like the thrill of being with these bad boys. Many years ago, I a student from my school hanging with the drug dealers. She was deaf and I feared for her. I reported it and the when her signer asked her, she said no one else was showing interest and she enjoyed being with them.

All women like bad boys.

Paedophiles are a different thing entirely.

 

[Bewal Express]

All women like bad boys.

Paedophiles are a different thing entirely.

I think people are confused when they are using these terms. These guys abused under age girls, these girls weren't as far as I know, pre pubescent.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

All women like bad boys.

Paedophiles are a different thing entirely.

These guys aren't bad boys, they were mostly ugly losers from what I saw, probably incapable of attracting women without picking on vulnerable girs and plying them with vodka.

 

[Stewie]

Really? A vast majority are problems for the UK? How?

I don't mean to ignore the rest of a relatively well written post, but you can't throw that in there without backing it up.

Fair enough, it’s my perception and can’t back by strong evidence because there are no such demographically studies. I am going by my personal experience and observation. You can take it with a grain of salt.

The evidence is circumstantial at best, yes.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

It's this lack of acceptance in a community's fault, nay, disease, that will not allow it to evolve.

This isn't a matter to be mitigating against!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

It's this lack of acceptance in a community's fault, nay, disease, that will not allow it to evolve.

This isn't a matter to be mitigating against!

Which community do you know that accepts the faults of it's perverts as their own fault? Can you name me one?

 

[Bewal Express]

It's this lack of acceptance in a community's fault, nay, disease, that will not allow it to evolve.

This isn't a matter to be mitigating against!

When the guys in Delhi were raping women, was the local community a willing accomplice? I am hoping the answer is no. Families may have protected their own, but its stretching to say the community were fault.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

When the guys in Delhi were raping women, was the local community a willing accomplice? I am hoping the answer is no. Families may have protected their own, but its stretching to say the community were fault.

Why you asking me?

 

[Bewal Express]

Why you asking me?

Aren't you Indian? If you aren't then I am mistaken you for another poster that wants to generalise about PKs, but when the same question is posed about the rapes in Ind, they say nothing to do with me boss.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Aren't you Indian? If you aren't then I am mistaken you for another poster that wants to generalise about PKs, but when the same question is posed about the rapes in Ind, they say nothing to do with me boss.

No, I'm not Indian :/

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

No, I'm not Indian :/

Did you find a community which accepted perverts as representative of their people yet? I only asked for one example, shouldn't be so hard.

 

[Bewal Express]

No, I'm not Indian :/

My apologies

 

[Stewie]

When the guys in Delhi were raping women, was the local community a willing accomplice? I am hoping the answer is no. Families may have protected their own, but its stretching to say the community were fault.

Maybe I am wrong and my views are in the minority but if you raise your children correctly, give them a proper balance of education (religious and otherwise, so they know the standing of women in Islam and the respect they deserve) and watch over in particular, the boys as much as girls, I really do not see why we will see the rise of the criminal element amongst them.

Like so many people have stated here, the criminal element within the black community exists because of the non traditional family structure exists for some of their community, where there is usually no dad around and it has generally become the norm for men to be in prison or to be involved in a life of crime. I am speaking about the black community here in the US.

But such a problem should not exist for Pakistanis, because of our strong conservative family's structures. I am not putting the blame squarely on poor upbringing, but it has to have played some sort of a role here.

 

[Bewal Express]

Maybe I am wrong and my views are in the minority but if you raise your children correctly, give them a proper balance of education (religious and otherwise, so they know the standing of women in Islam and the respect they deserve) and watch over in particular, the boys as much as girls, I really do not see why we will see the rise of the criminal element amongst them.

Like so many people have stated here, the criminal element within the black community exists because of the non traditional family structure exists for some of their community, where there is usually no dad around and it has generally become the norm for men to be in prison or to be involved in a life of crime. I am speaking about the black community here in the US.

But such a problem should not exist for Pakistanis, because of our strong conservative family's structures. I am not putting the blame squarely on poor upbringing, but it has to have played some sort of a role here.

I agree that strong families lead to less crap. But the problem is that its an individual family decision and has nothing to do with the community. Its not as if I or anyone else has any control over the behaviour and values of others. I am a teacher and I have a lot of "influence" in the community but people will say the right things but as we know, everything plays 2nd fiddle to money for the vast majority of our parents( and for most other groups).

 

[Stewie]

I agree that strong families lead to less crap. But the problem is that its an individual family decision and has nothing to do with the community. Its not as if I or anyone else has any control over the behaviour and values of others. I am a teacher and I have a lot of "influence" in the community but people will say the right things but as we know, everything plays 2nd fiddle to money for the vast majority of our parents( and for most other groups).

I understand and agree. But when a large percentage of crime in a society, especially of a particular sort, starts coming from a particular minority community, it should raise the alarms for all of them because such patterns have repercussions for all of them. I am not saying we are there yet, but it helps to acknowledge and work on it within the community.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Did you find a community which accepted perverts as representative of their people yet? I only asked for one example, shouldn't be so hard.

I genuinely don't understand your strawman. Should Pakistanis not be ashamed and look to weed out this evil?

 

[dildilpak]

Maybe I am wrong and my views are in the minority but if you raise your children correctly, give them a proper balance of education (religious and otherwise, so they know the standing of women in Islam and the respect they deserve) and watch over in particular, the boys as much as girls, I really do not see why we will see the rise of the criminal element amongst them.

Like so many people have stated here, the criminal element within the black community exists because of the non traditional family structure exists for some of their community, where there is usually no dad around and it has generally become the norm for men to be in prison or to be involved in a life of crime. I am speaking about the black community here in the US.

But such a problem should not exist for Pakistanis, because of our strong conservative family's structures. I am not putting the blame squarely on poor upbringing, but it has to have played some sort of a role here.

So many things at play here -
1. Poor parenting where parents dont know/dont care what their sons are upto.
2. No value awarded to education. Both parents & kids just want to get rich quickly not caring where the money is coming from.
3. No respect for women - especially ones who belong to other races or community.
4. No fear of law & order- The impunity of these crimes in a land foreign to their own (assuming most of these perps are first gen immigrants) astounds me the most. The police simply ignoring these crimes fearing labels of racism is simply not acceptable.
5. No fear of community ostracism for themselves or their family - That they think they can get away surviving in communities without getting reported shows that in some way the community is happy to turn a blind eye to such deviant behaviour. There has to be far stricter punishment from within the community where they live in for these guys to feel the pinch.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I genuinely don't understand your strawman. Should Pakistanis not be ashamed and look to weed out this evil?

How is it a strawman? You were calling for Pakistani community to accept perverts as representative, I merely asked you if you know of any other community which has adopted perversion as a community characteristic.

By all means feel ashamed, but realistically do you have any answers how to weed it out? Complaining like an Auntie about our terrible menfolk isn't going to do it. That's just whining.

Here's the answer if you missed it before: Hit them with the sledgehammer of the law. It's not so complicated and it gets the job done.

 

[dildilpak]

How is it a strawman? You were calling for Pakistani community to accept perverts as representative, I merely asked you if you know of any other community which has adopted perversion as a community characteristic.

By all means feel ashamed, but realistically do you have any answers how to weed it out? Complaining like an Auntie about our terrible menfolk isn't going to do it. That's just whining.

Here's the answer if you missed it before: Hit them with the sledgehammer of the law. It's not so complicated and it gets the job done.

But is law enforcement enough? Clearly they have no fear of the law & order. And not to mention our Muslim bros will be the first to cry the ‘R’ word if the police adopt stringent steps to weed out such vermin.

 

[Stewie]

How is it a strawman? You were calling for Pakistani community to accept perverts as representative, I merely asked you if you know of any other community which has adopted perversion as a community characteristic.

By all means feel ashamed, but realistically do you have any answers how to weed it out? Complaining like an Auntie about our terrible menfolk isn't going to do it. That's just whining.

Here's the answer if you missed it before: Hit them with the sledgehammer of the law. It's not so complicated and it gets the job done.

Weeding it out comes down to individual level, and that was my point. It all starts at home with proper upbringing. If you notice and alarming trend of such stuff within a larger community, it may mean they are all taking similar missteps such as not giving their children enough time or paying enough attention. Thats all you can do. There will always be outliers who despite all the right moves will fall into a life of crime.

 

[Ryw]

Western culture doesnt teach anyone to sexually groom kids as young as 13 & 14. And being sexually active or drinking liquor is not a license to be termed promiscous & be considered as fair game which these gangs in Huddersfield, Rochdale or Telford think they are.

Your statement is exactly the problem i see in many British Pakistanis - living in a Western society & benefiting from the social benefits largesse but considering their morals, religion & culture weak compared to your own. Americans & Canadian Pakistanis who are better integrated into the local society dont have similar issues.

Very sad incident, this type of grooming is a worldwide problem, dont know why you want to involve Pakistani culture or muslim culture in it, you can have that yahoodi culture adopt it but plz don’t drag everybody into the gutter. They are british and living in british society british brought up british culture
I smell also racism in it,very biased reporting.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But is law enforcement enough? Clearly they have no fear of the law & order. And not to mention our Muslim bros will be the first to cry the ‘R’ word if the police adopt stringent steps to weed out such vermin.

What else is there if not the law? Aunties gossiping over the fence about how such and such's son is such a bad lad?

Police shouldn't have been allowed to play the race card, let's put the blame where it lies. They are there to enforce the law, not act as social workers.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Weeding it out comes down to individual level, and that was my point. It all starts at home with proper upbringing. If you notice and alarming trend of such stuff within a larger community, it may mean they are all taking similar missteps such as not giving their children enough time or paying enough attention. Thats all you can do. There will always be outliers who despite all the right moves will fall into a life of crime.

I'm sure it would be great if everyone were exemplary parents, but that works only in close communities. Britain is geared around individual rights, you just aren't in a position to tell other people how to bring up their kids. Practlcally it's not implementable.

 

[dildilpak]

Very sad incident, this type of grooming is a worldwide problem, dont know why you want to involve Pakistani culture or muslim culture in it, you can have that yahoodi culture adopt it but plz don’t drag everybody into the gutter. They are british and living in british society british brought up british culture
I smell also racism in it,very biased reporting.

Worldwide problem? Can you show me any other immigrant community involved in such deviant acts anywhere in the Western world? And mind too its not an one-off incident, this has become a pattern in Britain. Easy to cry the R word but if you refuse to see a problem what is right under your nose, you will never find a solution for it.

 

[Stewie]

I'm sure it would be great if everyone were exemplary parents, but that works only in close communities. Britain is geared around individual rights, you just aren't in a position to tell other people how to bring up their kids. Practlcally it's not implementable.

Its not, and that was not what I said. It boils down to individuals. They have to do it themselves. You cannot "police" such things. But each and every person should take this responsibility at least to try and fix it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Worldwide problem? Can you show me any other immigrant community involved in such deviant acts anywhere in the Western world? And mind too its not an one-off incident, this has become a pattern in Britain. Easy to cry the R word but if you refuse to see a problem what is right under your nose, you will never find a solution for it.

What would be your solution for it?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Its not, and that was not what I said. It boils down to individuals. They have to do it themselves. You cannot "police" such things. But each and every person should take this responsibility at least to try and fix it.

This is like saying everyone should be nice to each other. Yes, well that would be wonderful.

 

[topspin]

More buzzword drivel instead of actual debate.

"Defensive!"
Conspiracy theories!"
"Victim mentality!"

You've reeled off most of them in the space of a couple of posts mate, got any left in the locker?

Don't bother actually asking any real questions though, I know you get wound up when certain nationalities get some back.

If you read the next post from the one you've quoted me on, you've been told to stop being defensive by another poster.

Actually it's you who avoiding this debate with this response of yours. Bringing out desperate diversion tactics like "you're using buzzwords" as opposed to addressing my post. But this is expected by certain British Pakistanis who're always living in denial.

 

[Stewie]

This is like saying everyone should be nice to each other. Yes, well that would be wonderful.

If you are asking for solution here, you are barking up the wrong tree. You cannot expect forum members who dont even live in the UK to give you any valuable and practical insight into what you should do to fix the problem. Acknowledging you have a problem is half the battle. But it seems some people here dont even want to do that.

Regardless, the universal solution or catch it all for social problems is :it all begins at home.

You may say that is a given and not particularly insightful but you would be surprised how we some times tend to ignore whats right under our nose.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If you read the next post from the one you've quoted me on, you've been told to stop being defensive by another poster.

Actually it's you who avoiding this debate with this response of yours. Bringing out desperate diversion tactics like "you're using buzzwords" as opposed to addressing my post. But this is expected by certain British Pakistanis who're always living in denial.

So you are attacking me as a poster, and that is your idea of a debate on this topic. This tends to be the go to tactic for those who can't actually contribute to the topic itself.