Did AB de Villiers bat more like Viv Richards than anyone else? Viv Richards of the modern era?

[SL_Fan]

So why do these great bowling attacks of the 70s and 80s appear so toothless in any of the footage from those ERAs ?



Thank Lord for the small mercies. So if Cricket is soo much more batting friendly then are you willing to accept that Starc , BLee etc are the Greatest ODI bowlers ever ?

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...6;team=7;team=8;template=results;type=bowling

We are not talking about the 1950s or something here. The game was played at a decent level during the 1970s/80s and was dominated by the quicks. Back then the ODI game was definitely a lot more balanced between the bat and ball compared to post mid 2000s. There’s absolutely no doubt about that. However you seem to only see what you want to see that’s the issue.

Lee and Starc are two of the best no doubt. Starc’s numbers are just unreal given that batsmen have had it all their own way this decade. Could certainly go down as the greatest ever if he keeps it up and manages to get to that 300+ wickets mark.

 

[SL_Fan]

Not about fielding restrictions etc.

His game was basically leg side hoicks against poor deliveries. Watch his innings.

That kind of batting in today's era would not work. You need to improvise and have to be good enough to not just rely on leg side hacking.

But, in that era nobody else took initiative or had the mindset to do leg side slogging. He did, so he's the best of that era.

But wouldn't survive in today's era. Or doesn't have the skillset of a player like AB de Villiers.

That era Viv was great, today AB is great and is the Viv of this generation.

I suggest you go and have a look at some of the video footage of Viv. There are plenty out there. Even in the vid I posted here you see him hitting an inside out six over cover off a ball that pitched middle and leg (2m35s). How about that one for a leg side hoik eh.

 

[SL_Fan]

There is a CLEAR problem with all your posts which you are just not engaging with.

All of your analysis is about performances relative to peers.

I could make a similar relative table about performances in Bangalore college cricket circuit and conclude that G.S. Govindaraju is a world-class batsman.

What Tusker is saying here is that ALL the players in the whole era are much weaker than average players now, and that even if some players teams weren't garbage according to the standards of 1980, they would definitely be garbage as per the standards of 2018.

Don’t think my posts are the problem here. Obviously you would expect the player skill levels on the whole to improve over the decades never claimed otherwise. Having said that tho I’m not going to just completely ignore the disadvantages either. If you think that ODI batting post mid 2000s has been tougher than the late 70s and the 80s on the whole you are deadset kidding yourself. Nothing points towards that being the case. Not the actual facts and figures anyways.

 

[hk031992]

toothless? Give me a break

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t51RjEpw8E0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99eFt5HRTW0

This is anything but toothless.

 

[SL_Fan]

Lets just say that ABDV was superior in terms of his skill and individual ability on so many levels compared to Viv, but factors which can be compared across distinct era's that are free from bias are mental fortitude, desire, hunger, the will to never give up and how one handles pressure situations. We've had many instances in the past where in key moments great great players faltered when it mattered most even when up against inferior talent, but this is why we value performances in KO stages or crunch knocks in a WC final for example. And [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] pointed out some of those iconic knocks which embodied mental fortitude, a never say die attitude and an uncanny ability to deliver under immense pressure when the stakes were extremely high, I love ABDV but does he have a knock in any KO stages of a 50 over World Cup which compare to the 138 vs England ?

Sure in era's that followed the game evolved but why should pioneers be disrespected and why should their achievements be disregarded in tough circumstances that too when their numbers far exceeded those of their peers. But one thing is for sure, Viv is mentally tougher and has a bigger set of cricket balls then ABDV ever had; and I'd pick him to bat for my life in the past or present over the South African.

Too right. Viv has ticked off all the boxes and then some - MOTMs in WC grand finals, KOs and prelims, home and away tournaments and bilaterals the whole lot. AB on the other hand after 13 WCs/CTs/T20WCs not even a single runner-up medal that too playing for one of the top sides. Against the top six does not even have an ICC tourney hundred in 46 outings nor a MOTM against them in a WC/CT.

So for all his 360 degree shots, flashy numbers, fastest this and that records, IPL heroics and whatnot can someone please tell me what AB has to show for it? Scraping the barrel here but I don’t think he even has an IPL or a T20 league title to his name?

 

[shaz619]

as did Viv against even more mediocre players ... its not like Viv was flawless in this aspect.

But I see you are not answering my point about Waqar being considered a great player despite the lack of a big WC KO win.



Kohli has already helped us win the CT 2013 Final and did ok in the 2011 final and numerous other big games. It hasnt stopped fans from trolling him. Idiots are gonna produce idiotry. Luckily the world is NOT run by idiots. Therefore the likes of Kohli and ABDV will go down as the absolute greats of the game with or without WC performances. Just like how Waqar Younis is considered a Great despite that 96 Q/F.

But he delivered a prestigious trophy in challenging circumstances something ABDV has never achieved because he is mentally weak.

I haven't said you can't be a great player without performances in crunch moments under pressure but the likes of Waqar, Kohli and ABDV will be limited to lower ATG tiers, only their mentally inept fans will sing their undisputed praises.

It was a good knock, I was at that match which became a T20 due to rain in my city but it was Jadeja who had the most impact. He isn't a prophet who can't be critcised and has failed in big games.

 

[SL_Fan]

as did Viv against even more mediocre players ... its not like Viv was flawless in this aspect.

But I see you are not answering my point about Waqar being considered a great player despite the lack of a big WC KO win.



Kohli has already helped us win the CT 2013 Final and did ok in the 2011 final and numerous other big games. It hasnt stopped fans from trolling him. Idiots are gonna produce idiotry. Luckily the world is NOT run by idiots. Therefore the likes of Kohli and ABDV will go down as the absolute greats of the game with or without WC performances. Just like how Waqar Younis is considered a Great despite that 96 Q/F.

I don't think any one here is saying that AB is not an ODI ATG. Of course he is. But he hasn't ticked off as many boxes as Viv. Apart from pulverising WI and minnows his ICC tourney record is nothing much to speak of. That's a huge hole in his CV.

 

[SL_Fan]

Viv did well in one of those finals. How many finals AB played? He didnt get to be in a similar situation to even fail.

These are all AB's ICC tourney KOs. One good knock but all losses. Even against his faves WI couldn’t turn it on like usual when it really mattered. After 13 WCs/CTs/T20WCs not even a single runner-up medal. Against the top six does not even have an ICC tourney hundred in 46 outings nor a MOTM against them in a WC/CT. It is what it is.

 

[SL_Fan]

Again 2 things:

1. Isn't Waqar considered as a great ODI cricketer despite that failure in 1996 WC Q/F?
2. Your basis for categorizing ABD as a player who cannot play under pressure is based on current day matches where he has to face up to opposition that are far more skilled than the woefully out of place players from KO matches that Viv played in the 70s and 80s. There is simply no comparison at all between the two. ( And most importantly Viv also failed in 2 out of the 3 finals he played)

Viv did very well in finals actually. In fact I don't think anyone beats him there. Closest is probably Ponting.

He made his ODI debut in the 75 WC and flopped as a whole with the bat (batted at 6). However still played a big part in the WC win tho with 3 crucial run-outs in the final including that of the Chappells.

In the 79 WC win Viv made a 40 odd in the semi vs Pak and scored a quick-fire 138* vs Eng (MOTM) in the final - averaged 108 striking at 74 that WC.

In the 83 WC leading up to the final Viv scored 119 vs India, 95* vs Aus and 80* in the semi vs Pakistan (3 MOTMs on the trot) and top scored with a quick 33 for WI in the final (only one other bat managed to score over 30 that game Srikkanth with 38) but of course ended up losing the final to India - averaged 73 striking at 81 that WC.

In the 87 WC did well individually (averaged 65 striking at 107) but WI didn’t make it to the semis after losing a couple of close games to Pak and Eng (Qadir hit 13 off the last over to win it for Pak and Allan Lamb and the tail got Eng home after being down and out).

His WC record is as good as it gets pretty much.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

Too right. Viv has ticked off all the boxes and then some - MOTMs in WC grand finals, KOs and prelims, home and away tournaments and bilaterals the whole lot. AB on the other hand after 13 WCs/CTs/T20WCs not even a single runner-up medal that too playing for one of the top sides. Against the top six does not even have an ICC tourney hundred in 46 outings nor a MOTM against them in a WC/CT.

So for all his 360 degree shots, flashy numbers, fastest this and that records, IPL heroics and whatnot can someone please tell me what AB has to show for it? Scraping the barrel here but I don’t think he even has an IPL or a T20 league title to his name?

Cricket is a team sport, no? Also, perhaps you should check his batting positions before you completely down play AB's contributions.

 

[SL_Fan]

He was part of a top team and SA were one of the favourites going into pretty much all of those tournies. As for the batting position always wondered why he hid down the order. He was never a top notch finisher.

Quoting Daryl Cullinan here I think he summed things up quite well.

Look at where AB is batting, No. 5, sometimes 6. I have been consistently harping on the fact that AB has to come up the order. Virat, on the other hand, is setting up games for India consistently in limited overs cricket. He is batting through the difficult period and getting those runs, so I feel Virat is more prepared to take the pressure of batting at No. 3 than AB.

 

[Tusker]

We are not talking about the 1950s or something here. The game was played at a decent level during the 1970s/80s and was dominated by the quicks. Back then the ODI game was definitely a lot more balanced between the bat and ball compared to post mid 2000s. There’s absolutely no doubt about that. However you seem to only see what you want to see that’s the issue.

The balance that you talk about is a artificial one and it is a byproduct of how cricket was played in those days. The single biggest reason is due to Test Cricketers playing ODI Cricket like Test Cricket in those days and people mindlessly drooling over the quality of it. I mean do you have any logical reasons why Test match specialists like Boycott, Tavare, Brearly, Gavaskar, Amarnath, Border, Shoaib Mohammad, Mudassar, John Wright etc etc played soo many ODI's ? Madness !!

You ARE going to have an awesome Balance between bat and ball if there are soo many tuk-tuks in every team. This is the circular logic.( See [MENTION=135134]CricketAnalyst[/MENTION] posts.) Unless you find a way to break that deadlock you will continue to believe in this nonsense that everything that was done in the 70s and 80s was Gold standard.

Whereas now - guys like Pujara have no place in ODIs and Rahane struggles to find a spot. The difference in mindset is soo massive that it is not even funny.

Lee and Starc are two of the best no doubt. Starc’s numbers are just unreal given that batsmen have had it all their own way this decade. Could certainly go down as the greatest ever if he keeps it up and manages to get to that 300+ wickets mark.

See this is other thing about old ERA fans - the bar for greatness is soo low for the old ERA that it beggars belief. Do you realize that Starc has already gone past Dennis Lillee and is close to Holding, Hadlee, Garner (at much better S/R) and that Bret Lee has more than 3 times the wkt tally of Lillee ? None of the old timers in that list even came close to 200 wkts.

Why is the bar different for the modern player ?
[MENTION=136172]hk031992[/MENTION] - will respond to your posts later.

 

[shaz619]

Too right. Viv has ticked off all the boxes and then some - MOTMs in WC grand finals, KOs and prelims, home and away tournaments and bilaterals the whole lot. AB on the other hand after 13 WCs/CTs/T20WCs not even a single runner-up medal that too playing for one of the top sides. Against the top six does not even have an ICC tourney hundred in 46 outings nor a MOTM against them in a WC/CT.

So for all his 360 degree shots, flashy numbers, fastest this and that records, IPL heroics and whatnot can someone please tell me what AB has to show for it? Scraping the barrel here but I don’t think he even has an IPL or a T20 league title to his name?

Exactly am not sure why people are overlooking those accomplishments. We've seen many talented players across distinct era's who had it all but just couldn't find that extra gear when it mattered most, we shouldn't down play mental fortitude and impact ability.

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] you say that all of Viv's pressure knocks even the one in the WC final where he won a trophy with his back against the wall is not impressive because of the poor quality of bowling, you also point out how batsman in this era are levels above those in the past given how the game has evolved; but what unfair advantage did Viv have over everyone else? because he too was among batsman in a time when the game was evolving and the batsman tool set wasn't so big, so when it comes to dealing with pressure it is fair to say that the playing field was levelled and this is why we can make a comparison between Viv and ABDV's mental fortitude relative to time period they were playing in.

 

[SL_Fan]

The balance that you talk about is a artificial one and it is a byproduct of how cricket was played in those days. The single biggest reason is due to Test Cricketers playing ODI Cricket like Test Cricket in those days and people mindlessly drooling over the quality of it. I mean do you have any logical reasons why Test match specialists like Boycott, Tavare, Brearly, Gavaskar, Amarnath, Border, Shoaib Mohammad, Mudassar, John Wright etc etc played soo many ODI's ? Madness !!

You ARE going to have an awesome Balance between bat and ball if there are soo many tuk-tuks in every team. This is the circular logic.( See [MENTION=135134]CricketAnalyst[/MENTION] posts.) Unless you find a way to break that deadlock you will continue to believe in this nonsense that everything that was done in the 70s and 80s was Gold standard.

Whereas now - guys like Pujara have no place in ODIs and Rahane struggles to find a spot. The difference in mindset is soo massive that it is not even funny.



See this is other thing about old ERA fans - the bar for greatness is soo low for the old ERA that it beggars belief. Do you realize that Starc has already gone past Dennis Lillee and is close to Holding, Hadlee, Garner (at much better S/R) and that Bret Lee has more than 3 times the wkt tally of Lillee ? None of the old timers in that list even came close to 200 wkts.

Why is the bar different for the modern player ?
[MENTION=136172]hk031992[/MENTION] - will respond to your posts later.

Honestly I don't think I have anything else to add on this. Don't see the point in going around in circles regurgitating the same ol stuff. As I said nothing points towards ODI batting post mid 2000s being tougher than the late 70s and the 80s on the whole. During the 90s and maybe the early 2000s as well yeah you could make a fair argument that batting was tougher given that there were a lot more quality bowlers going around and the playing conditions were not as heavily tilted towards batsmen. But post mid 2000s definitely not.

 

[SL_Fan]

Exactly am not sure why people are overlooking those accomplishments. We've seen many talented players across distinct era's who had it all but just couldn't find that extra gear when it mattered most, we shouldn't down play mental fortitude and impact ability.

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] you say that all of Viv's pressure knocks even the one in the WC final where he won a trophy with his back against the wall is not impressive because of the poor quality of bowling, you also point out how batsman in this era are levels above those in the past given how the game has evolved; but what unfair advantage did Viv have over everyone else? because he too was among batsman in a time when the game was evolving and the batsman tool set wasn't so big, so when it comes to dealing with pressure it is fair to say that the playing field was levelled and this is why we can make a comparison between Viv and ABDV's mental fortitude relative to time period they were playing in.

Well said. I mean look at this 1979 WC Final Viv comes in with WI one down for 22 and with wickets tumbling all around him hits an unbeaten 138 and wins the WC. Unreal!

 

[SL_Fan]

That too after a 40 odd in the semi as well. Absolute legend!

 

[shaz619]

Well said. I mean look at this 1979 WC Final Viv comes in with WI one down for 22 and with wickets tumbling all around him hits an unbeaten 138 and wins the WC. Unreal!

That too after a 40 odd in the semi as well. Absolute legend!

Incredible batting! I don't care if Bangladesh was bowling at him, on that stage under those circumstances it is incredibly ignorant to suggest that the alleged poor bowling quality would negate any pressure. I doubt such individuals have played cricket at any level because any sane individual wouldn't come up with such nonsense and to be fair it's just common sense but I guess that is not so common these days chow

 

[Rahul1]

You think Barry Richards is overrated? Ok.

You think that some random English trundlers from the 40s are overrated? Ok.

You think Viv Richards is overrated? Your entire credibility just goes down the drain for me.

 

[anoop]

Well said. I mean look at this 1979 WC Final Viv comes in with WI one down for 22 and with wickets tumbling all around him hits an unbeaten 138 and wins the WC. Unreal!

Sorry but that 86 (66) by CL king looks more impressive. Most probably viv was overshadowed by him.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

He was part of a top team and SA were one of the favourites going into pretty much all of those tournies. As for the batting position always wondered why he hid down the order. He was never a top notch finisher.

Quoting Daryl Cullinan here I think he summed things up quite well.

Exactly, he was part of a TEAM and the team failed him more than he failed the team.

Cullinan was a mental midget compared to AB. No bowler dominated AB like Cullinan was bullied. His comments on "pressure" is laughable, to be quite honest.

AB was given role to play in the team and he did it to the best of his ability.

 

[Tusker]

Exactly am not sure why people are overlooking those accomplishments. We've seen many talented players across distinct era's who had it all but just couldn't find that extra gear when it mattered most, we shouldn't down play mental fortitude and impact ability.

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] you say that all of Viv's pressure knocks even the one in the WC final where he won a trophy with his back against the wall is not impressive because of the poor quality of bowling, you also point out how batsman in this era are levels above those in the past given how the game has evolved; but what unfair advantage did Viv have over everyone else? because he too was among batsman in a time when the game was evolving and the batsman tool set wasn't so big, so when it comes to dealing with pressure it is fair to say that the playing field was levelled and this is why we can make a comparison between Viv and ABDV's mental fortitude relative to time period they were playing in.

Where did I claim that Viv had unfair advantage over his peers ? What I did say was that most of the worlds best bowlers of that time were in his team. Add to that the fact that SA was absent, SL,NZ were minnows and AUS in the 80s were in a slump, Eng had a trundler battery bowling pies means that he had no real tough competition. Yes there were good bowlers but they were few and far inbetween.

While by no means this is unfair advantage but to pretend that Viv went around beating the living daylights out of high quality fast bowling like [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] and other Viv fanatics try to make it out to be is not true at all. In fact Vivs record against his own WI fast bowlers in county cricket and WI domestic competition is very ordinary. This is the single biggest reason why none of the Viv Fanatics will ever answer the pointed questions directed at them. Iam still waiting for an answer on what is the Big deal about the bowling I posted in the 2 videos that are regarded as Viv's best inngs. See if you can answer that.

Whereas for ABDV he has to deal with much better bowling attacks of Eng, Ind, AUS, NZ. FWIW He also faces his own SA bowlers in IPL and does well. If you think that bowlers like Hendrick, Botham, Boycott, Edmunds, Old, Madan Lal, Binny, Amarnath , Sandhu, Collinge, Gilmour, Asif Iqbal, McKenhie, etc etc presents the same degree of difficulty as facing McGrath, Shaun Tait, Bracken, Hogg, Malinga , Boult, Southee etc then there can be no honest discussion that is possible.

The one time he did run into a half decent bowling unit in 1975 WC which has Lillee and Thommo he did nothing with the bat.

 

[Tusker]

You think Barry Richards is overrated? Ok.

You think that some random English trundlers from the 40s are overrated? Ok.

You think Viv Richards is overrated? Your entire credibility just goes down the drain for me.

Yeah sure I will worry about opinion from a hit and run one-line merchant who cannot put together few lines let alone provide detailed technical analysis.

 

[Ab Fan]

AB(not the real one) is not fit enough to tie the shoelace of Viv.

He will be remembered over the generation but his legacy would have been different if he ended up after being a part of WC 2019.

In simple words, he threw away greatness which was there for him to take with both hands without doing much.

 

[Tusker]

Incredible batting! I don't care if Bangladesh was bowling at him, on that stage under those circumstances it is incredibly ignorant to suggest that the alleged poor bowling quality would negate any pressure. I doubt such individuals have played cricket at any level because any sane individual wouldn't come up with such nonsense and to be fair it's just common sense but I guess that is not so common these days chow

So let me get this straight .... you dont think there is difference in pressure facing the likes of McGrath , Bracken, BLee , Starc, Hazlewood , Cummins vs Bangla bowlers if it is a KO match ?

 

[Tusker]

Honestly I don't think I have anything else to add on this. Don't see the point in going around in circles regurgitating the same ol stuff. As I said nothing points towards ODI batting post mid 2000s being tougher than the late 70s and the 80s on the whole. During the 90s and maybe the early 2000s as well yeah you could make a fair argument that batting was tougher given that there were a lot more quality bowlers going around and the playing conditions were not as heavily tilted towards batsmen. But post mid 2000s definitely not.

To summarize here are the 3 main points that you have quite deliberately avoided answering or just make blanket statements without any factual/technical evidence as was predicted would happen.

1. Post #37 ( Context behind Bowling quality )
2. Post #39 and #43 ( Need technical explanation of why you consider the quality of bowling is great in those 2 Videos which are best inngs played by Viv you can add 1979 WC footage to it)
3. Overall standard of cricket and the circular logic conundrum ( you do acknowledge that there is improvement in stanards now but somehow this does not mean anything and elsewhere you claim 70s and 80s had better bowling standards ) .
4. No reply to Test match specialist playing ODI cricket like Test cricket with Testmatch batting strike rates.

 

[Mr.Q]

I’m not going to compare the two careers here. In that case Viv might win. But if I’m asked who is the better batsman, I’d say ABD without a doubt.

Viv Richards is somewhat overrated here. As a batsman he was ahead of his times but so is ABD. Some people just overhype him and some others who haven’t even watched him bat nod in approval. He actually ticks both the boxes to get the approval of some cricket fans. 1)he played in a different era. 2)he is a West Indian.

I never watched him bat live but I’ve watched some of the videos on YouTube. His style of batting is impressive in the sense that he was fearless. He obviously had the gift of timing (and power too). Without a doubt, a great batsman. But if AB (or most modern day greats) gets to face the kinda half volleys and slow-medium pace short length balls that he faced, pretty much every ball will go for six.

ABD is an unbelievably talented player. I don’t have to explain much, you guys have seen him bat.

AB is definitely as good as Viv.

 

[shaz619]

So let me get this straight .... you dont think there is difference in pressure facing the likes of McGrath , Bracken, BLee , Starc, Hazlewood , Cummins vs Bangla bowlers if it is a KO match ?

You're saying that but my point is in a high stakes situation the opposition quality is negated because whoever handles the pressure better is going to come out on top

 

[hk031992]

Where did I claim that Viv had unfair advantage over his peers ? What I did say was that most of the worlds best bowlers of that time were in his team. Add to that the fact that SA was absent, SL,NZ were minnows and AUS in the 80s were in a slump, Eng had a trundler battery bowling pies means that he had no real tough competition. Yes there were good bowlers but they were few and far inbetween.

While by no means this is unfair advantage but to pretend that Viv went around beating the living daylights out of high quality fast bowling like [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] and other Viv fanatics try to make it out to be is not true at all. In fact Vivs record against his own WI fast bowlers in county cricket and WI domestic competition is very ordinary. This is the single biggest reason why none of the Viv Fanatics will ever answer the pointed questions directed at them. Iam still waiting for an answer on what is the Big deal about the bowling I posted in the 2 videos that are regarded as Viv's best inngs. See if you can answer that.

Whereas for ABDV he has to deal with much better bowling attacks of Eng, Ind, AUS, NZ. FWIW He also faces his own SA bowlers in IPL and does well. If you think that bowlers like Hendrick, Botham, Boycott, Edmunds, Old, Madan Lal, Binny, Amarnath , Sandhu, Collinge, Gilmour, Asif Iqbal, McKenhie, etc etc presents the same degree of difficulty as facing McGrath, Shaun Tait, Bracken, Hogg, Malinga , Boult, Southee etc then there can be no honest discussion that is possible.

The one time he did run into a half decent bowling unit in 1975 WC which has Lillee and Thommo he did nothing with the bat.

You are the one who is not being honest. Yes, i believe that facing Hadlee, Imran, Lillee, Akram etc are every bit as good if not better than the bowlers you mentioned.

Aus in the mid 80's were in a slump. Aus in the late 70s were not. Viv scored one of his greatest hundreds vs Lillee which you outright ignored.

NZ had their greatest ever bowler at that time in Hadlee.

 

[shaz619]

Where did I claim that Viv had unfair advantage over his peers ? What I did say was that most of the worlds best bowlers of that time were in his team. Add to that the fact that SA was absent, SL,NZ were minnows and AUS in the 80s were in a slump, Eng had a trundler battery bowling pies means that he had no real tough competition. Yes there were good bowlers but they were few and far inbetween.

While by no means this is unfair advantage but to pretend that Viv went around beating the living daylights out of high quality fast bowling like [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] and other Viv fanatics try to make it out to be is not true at all. In fact Vivs record against his own WI fast bowlers in county cricket and WI domestic competition is very ordinary. This is the single biggest reason why none of the Viv Fanatics will ever answer the pointed questions directed at them. Iam still waiting for an answer on what is the Big deal about the bowling I posted in the 2 videos that are regarded as Viv's best inngs. See if you can answer that.

Whereas for ABDV he has to deal with much better bowling attacks of Eng, Ind, AUS, NZ. FWIW He also faces his own SA bowlers in IPL and does well. If you think that bowlers like Hendrick, Botham, Boycott, Edmunds, Old, Madan Lal, Binny, Amarnath , Sandhu, Collinge, Gilmour, Asif Iqbal, McKenhie, etc etc presents the same degree of difficulty as facing McGrath, Shaun Tait, Bracken, Hogg, Malinga , Boult, Southee etc then there can be no honest discussion that is possible.

The one time he did run into a half decent bowling unit in 1975 WC which has Lillee and Thommo he did nothing with the bat.

All your questions have already been answered, like I said; I am agreeing with you that ABDV is a levels above Viv when it comes to his skills but what has he got to show for it in his career when he had many opportunities to win a trophy? Viv on the other hand delivered one for his country in an iconic knock under immense pressure.

Now you will say that his knock was not impressive because of opposition quality or how he was not up against bowlers from his team (hardly his fault), but you've already accepted that batsman during that period were inferior given how the game was still evolving; so Vivs ability to perform under pressure relative to those he had to face can be compared to ABDV against those whom he encountered, they both faced similar challenges relative to their own individual ability and that of their opponents. Viv was hardly a batsman from the 2010s was he. Anyhow this is where there is no comparison, Viv and his impact ability in important games exceeds that of ABDV who is a great in his own right.

 

[Tusker]

You're saying that but my point is in a high stakes situation the opposition quality is negated because whoever handles the pressure better is going to come out on top

What Iam saying is this - top quality bowling attack adds significantly more to the pressure. Ask any of the teams that ran into Aus in the late 90s and early 00s. If given a choice 100 times out of 100 EVERY single opposition would pick Bangladesh to face in a KO match instead of AUS.

If you dont agree then its quite frankly no point in continuing this discussion as I cannot take you seriously.

 

[shaz619]

What Iam saying is this - top quality bowling attack adds significantly more to the pressure. Ask any of the teams that ran into Aus in the late 90s and early 00s. If given a choice 100 times out of 100 EVERY single opposition would pick Bangladesh to face in a KO match instead of AUS.

If you dont agree then its quite frankly no point in continuing this discussion as I cannot take you seriously.

How can you be taken seriously when you claim Viv is over rated, players who have lived through both periods rate him very highly and don't crap all over the past legends just for the sake of it. On paper you are right about top quality attacks being more of a threat but then explain why the great Waqar Younis was smashed to pieces by a nobody, you're overlooking ones ability to perform under pressure regardless of who they are up against which can hardly matter in the moment; you could be Waqar Younis who is meant to bowl a toe crushing yorker with great consistency but instead you break and bowl full tosses. In all his career ABDV has faltered in crunch games unlike Viv, if we're talking games beyond that then sure he may have done more then Viv when the heat was turned off

 

[Hasan123]

Both were innovators. ABD changed LO batting. He is the one who started playing 360 degrees. Now all players try to play 360 degrees.

 

[Tusker]

You are the one who is not being honest. Yes, i believe that facing Hadlee, Imran, Lillee, Akram etc are every bit as good if not better than the bowlers you mentioned.

Aus in the mid 80's were in a slump. Aus in the late 70s were not. Viv scored one of his greatest hundreds vs Lillee which you outright ignored.

NZ had their greatest ever bowler at that time in Hadlee.

I havent ignored ... I said I will get back to you ... see post #92.

Just to add quickly - Lillee was past his prime by 1979 in the match you quoted --> http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard_ODI.asp?MatchCode=0127

I have already said in the post you quoted that there were a few good bowlers but most of the best of the best were in the WI side and Viv's record against them is very ordinary in domestic cricket.

 

[Tusker]

How can you be taken seriously when you claim Viv is over rated, players who have lived through both periods rate him very highly and don't crap all over the past legends just for the sake of it. On paper you are right about top quality attacks being more of a threat but then explain why the great Waqar Younis was smashed to pieces by a nobody, you're overlooking ones ability to perform under pressure regardless of who they are up against which can hardly matter in the moment; you could be Waqar Younis who is meant to bowl a toe crushing yorker with great consistency but instead you break and bowl full tosses. In all his career ABDV has faltered in crunch games unlike Viv, if we're talking games beyond that then sure he may have done more then Viv when the heat was turned off

You keep repeating this same thing over and over again as though it hasnt been answered before... let me answer this one final time ... Waqar Younis is considered a legend regardless of what happened in the 96 Q/F. Infact Jadeja is remembered because of that inngs but nobody even remotely considers him as a Great player despite that inngs in a very high pressure match.

It has no bearing on Waqar's standing in World Cricket (sorry but your opinion does not count). Therefore this point that you try to keep repeat is a red-herring when we are discussing absolute skill levels. Especially when ABD never had such a chance to beat up puny bowlers in KO matches.

If you think it is such a great skill to beat up BD in a KO then perhaps you think Rohit Sharma is also a gun player --> http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...dia-2nd-semi-final-icc-champions-trophy-2017/

 

[Tusker]

All your questions have already been answered, like I said; I am agreeing with you that ABDV is a levels above Viv when it comes to his skills .

And that was pretty much what I wanted to convey in this thread. Not sure why you were arguing against me instead of arguing with the Viv fans ... lol

 

[shaz619]

You keep repeating this same thing over and over again as though it hasnt been answered before... let me answer this one final time ... Waqar Younis is considered a legend regardless of what happened in the 96 Q/F. Infact Jadeja is remembered because of that inngs but nobody even remotely considers him as a Great player despite that inngs in a very high pressure match.

It has no bearing on Waqar's standing in World Cricket (sorry but your opinion does not count). Therefore this point that you try to keep repeat is a red-herring when we are discussing absolute skill levels. Especially when ABD never had such a chance to beat up puny bowlers in KO matches.

If you think it is such a great skill to beat up BD in a KO then perhaps you think Rohit Sharma is also a gun player --> http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...dia-2nd-semi-final-icc-champions-trophy-2017/

And that was pretty much what I wanted to convey in this thread. Not sure why you were arguing against me instead of arguing with the Viv fans ... lol

I haven't said Waqar or the others are not legends or greats, nor have I said that others who had one or two unbelievably good days deserve a HOF induction. But when we are comparing ATG's to other ATG's then things like their performances in crunch games can separate the two, in this regard Viv has a much better resume and his ability to handle pressure a lot better shouldn't be belittled, this is why the consensus will generally be that Viv is the greatest. ABDV has faced puny bowlers during his career to during the KO stages and he did nothing, as [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] was saying:

These are all AB's ICC tourney KOs. One good knock but all losses. Even against his faves WI couldn’t turn it on like usual when it really mattered. After 13 WCs/CTs/T20WCs not even a single runner-up medal. Against the top six does not even have an ICC tourney hundred in 46 outings nor a MOTM against them in a WC/CT

You can have all the skills in the world and smash chukkaz upside down but if you don't have a heart then it just don't matter beyond the games which have little stakes like the shaz619 and tusker trophy

 

[Ab Fan]

These are all AB's ICC tourney KOs. One good knock but all losses. Even against his faves WI couldn’t turn it on like usual when it really mattered. After 13 WCs/CTs/T20WCs not even a single runner-up medal. Against the top six does not even have an ICC tourney hundred in 46 outings nor a MOTM against them in a WC/CT. It is what it is.

I think you are underrating him massively.

This was a virtual Knockout in a WT20 2014 against a top team, England and he played a phenomenal inning.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...-africa-26th-match,-group-1-world-t20-2013-14

And WI playing a match in Windies in WC 2007 were hardly minnows as well.

 

[Tusker]

I haven't said Waqar or the others are not legends or greats, nor have I said that others who had one or two unbelievably good days deserve a HOF induction. But when we are comparing ATG's to other ATG's then things like their performances in crunch games can separate the two, in this regard Viv has a much better resume and his ability to handle pressure a lot better shouldn't be belittled, this is why the consensus will generally be that Viv is the greatest. ABDV has faced puny bowlers during his career to during the KO stages and he did nothing, as [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] was saying:



You can have all the skills in the world and smash chukkaz upside down but if you don't have a heart then it just don't matter beyond the games which have little stakes like the shaz619 and tusker trophy

Once again I see you are back the "ability to handle pressure " red-herring ? So let me cut to the chase and instead of re-hashing the same arguments ... do you consider BD = AUS in a KO then ? If yes this discussion ends here ( It still ends if you answer NO BTW ).

 

[hk031992]

I havent ignored ... I said I will get back to you ... see post #92.

Just to add quickly - Lillee was past his prime by 1979 in the match you quoted --> http://www.howstat.com/cricket/Statistics/Matches/MatchScorecard_ODI.asp?MatchCode=0127

I have already said in the post you quoted that there were a few good bowlers but most of the best of the best were in the WI side and Viv's record against them is very ordinary in domestic cricket.

we can all cherry pick things like Lillee being past his prime. He was still one of the best bowlers in the world in 1979. Lillee averaged 17.31 in 1979 in Odis, 10.57 in 1980. and 21 in 1981. Past his prime? The stats don't bear that out.

Hadlee was in his prime when Viv scored one of his best hundreds vs him

I wouldn't say that most of the best bowlers were West Indian. Lillee, Hadlee, Imran and later Wasim were every bit as good as the WI bowlers. That's about half of them.

As for domestic records, those are kind of hard to take seriously given a number of players who succeeded at domestic level but failed at international level. If Richards can succeed vs Lille, Hadlee etc, (who were in the same league as the WI bowlers), there is no reason why he couldn't succeed vs WI bowlers.

I fully agree that ABDV can do things that Viv didn't. That does not mean Viv would not be great today. I don't recall Jayasuria hitting the ball around 360 degrees. Nor do i recall Gilchrist doing that. Does that mean those guys wouldn't be great openers today? No, of course not. there is zero evidence that today's bowlers are so good that Richards couldn't succeed vs them.

 

[shaz619]

Once again I see you are back the "ability to handle pressure " red-herring ? So let me cut to the chase and instead of re-hashing the same arguments ... do you consider BD = AUS in a KO then ? If yes this discussion ends here ( It still ends if you answer NO BTW ).

Off course not but that bum who smashed Waqar to pieces was not Brian Lara either, am not sure why you can't grasp the fact that some players handled pressure better then others irrespective of opposition quality.

And Vivs iconic knocks are being berated when you have already pointed out that bats and bowlers were inferior then, was Viv from the future ? perhaps he was and that's why he is rated so highly. And if he wasn't and a bat who was limited given the time period but more creative then others, his ability to handle pressure against bowlers relative to his own ability was superior when compared to ABDV's prowess under distress relative to the opposition he had to face in his time period.

 

[Mamoon]

Skill wise you won't find anyone better than de Villiers. Comfortably the most versatile and complete batsman of the game. I am not sure if Viv had the defensive technique and temperament to block for a whole day to save a Test.

However, Viv's achievements are nothing to scoff at. Certainly the best ODI batsman of all time for now, but Kohli is right on his heels. Someone of de Villiers' capabilities should have been the undisputed number one, but he has not been able to deliver those crunch knocks under pressure, and his reluctance to bat up the order cost South Africa plenty of games, most notably the 2015 World Cup semifinal.

 

[Tusker]

Off course not but that bum who smashed Waqar to pieces was not Brian Lara either, am not sure why you can't grasp the fact that some players handled pressure better then others irrespective of opposition quality.

Good then that ends the discussion in favor of ABD. Thanks for your time.

 

[Tusker]

we can all cherry pick things like Lillee being past his prime. He was still one of the best bowlers in the world in 1979. Lillee averaged 17.31 in 1979 in Odis, 10.57 in 1980. and 21 in 1981. Past his prime? The stats don't bear that out.

Hadlee was in his prime when Viv scored one of his best hundreds vs him

I wouldn't say that most of the best bowlers were West Indian. Lillee, Hadlee, Imran and later Wasim were every bit as good as the WI bowlers. That's about half of them.

As for domestic records, those are kind of hard to take seriously given a number of players who succeeded at domestic level but failed at international level. If Richards can succeed vs Lille, Hadlee etc, (who were in the same league as the WI bowlers), there is no reason why he couldn't succeed vs WI bowlers.

I fully agree that ABDV can do things that Viv didn't. That does not mean Viv would not be great today. I don't recall Jayasuria hitting the ball around 360 degrees. Nor do i recall Gilchrist doing that. Does that mean those guys wouldn't be great openers today? No, of course not. there is zero evidence that today's bowlers are so good that Richards couldn't succeed vs them.

Wasim was a rookie when Viv played him. Anyhow Viv's avg against Pak is just 30.92 ... nothing extraordinary. As I said earlier all the tall stories that you hear about Viv was all achieved against the lesser bowlers. And no the WI bowlers were by far the best bowlers of that ERA. These are the hard facts that you simply cannot deny.

 

[hk031992]

Wasim was a rookie when Viv played him. Anyhow Viv's avg against Pak is just 30.92 ... nothing extraordinary. As I said earlier all the tall stories that you hear about Viv was all achieved against the lesser bowlers. And no the WI bowlers were by far the best bowlers of that ERA. These are the hard facts that you simply cannot deny.

They are not hard facts. Lillee and Hadlee and Imran were up there with any WI bowlers. You are only claiming those are hard facts because your arguments have been proven wrong.

Hadlee took 431 wickets at 22.29, in odi's 158 wickets at 21.56. Explain to me how he was "far behind" the west indies bowlers?

Ditto with Lillee.

You can't explain it because you are wrong. Seriously mate, your bias against old timers is remarkable. If Viv had scored hundreds vs Marshall, Holding and Garner, and not against Lillee, Hadlee etc, you would argue that Lillee and Hadlee were by far the greatest bowlers of the era.

And rookie Wasim had many of his best career performances in the mid to late 80's.

You already refuse to explain why you think Viv couldn't cut it in this era. Because he couldn't hit 360? Well, neither could the great batters from the 90's. I guess they couldn't compete in today's era either, could they?

I have already shown you the hundreds vs scored vs Lillee and Hadlee, which you chose to ignore.

 

[Ozymandiasza]

"Everybody kind of thinks winning the World Cup is the be-all and end-all and defines you as a player. But AB cannot be not defined by that. Everyone is now praising the guy and he has never won the World Cup. He has proved that by just playing amazing cricket, entertaining people and being an amazing person." - Dale Steyn

Sums up some arguments on here quite nicely

 

[shaz619]

Good then that ends the discussion in favor of ABD. Thanks for your time.

No it don't, you've ignored everything else repeatedly because there is no retort

 

[Tusker]

No it don't, you've ignored everything else repeatedly because there is no retort

List the points that I have ignored

 

[shaz619]

A) There's this argument that all the bowlers and batsman from the past were inferior, bowlers were awful and batsman like Viv were limited; then why should Viv's ability to deal with these bowlers in pressure scenario's be belittled? the opposition quality is being berated but Viv was also a product of that era when batsman didn't have the range of modern times.

B) Then ABDV should be given more credit for handling better bowling attacks, but he as an individual batsman was playing in a time period where batsman were evolving and was able to expand his range for modern times.

So one thing we compare in these two situations is the ability to play in pressure scenarios, it's not any different in situation A or B relative to the individuals circumstances because neither had an unfair advantage over their opponents, the one similarity is that both batsman did things their competitors couldn't. However, ABDV while being an ATG was a mental midget on the big stage which is why Viv will always be rated much much better.

 

[Tusker]

A) There's this argument that all the bowlers and batsman from the past were inferior, bowlers were awful and batsman like Viv were limited; then why should Viv's ability to deal with these bowlers in pressure scenario's be belittled? the opposition quality is being berated but Viv was also a product of that era when batsman didn't have the range of modern times.

Because we ridicule modern batsmen also the same way when they beat up minnows. Nobody rates ABD as the greatest because of his achievements vs minnows. Same rules are applied to Viv by observing the bowling quality on display from footage of his best inngs. This is why none of the Viv supporters have yet to answer my question that I asked in post #39 and post #43

Batting quality is determined by bowling quality.

B) Then ABDV should be given more credit for handling better bowling attacks, but he as an individual batsman was playing in a time period where batsman were evolving and was able to expand his range for modern times.

So one thing we compare in these two situations is the ability to play in pressure scenarios, it's not any different in situation A or B relative to the individuals circumstances because neither had an unfair advantage over their opponents, the one similarity is that both batsman did things their competitors couldn't. However, ABDV while being an ATG was a mental midget on the big stage which is why Viv will always be rated much much better.

This has been explained. See my posts earlier using Waqar Younis as example and the BD = AUS example.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

A) There's this argument that all the bowlers and batsman from the past were inferior, bowlers were awful and batsman like Viv were limited; then why should Viv's ability to deal with these bowlers in pressure scenario's be belittled? the opposition quality is being berated but Viv was also a product of that era when batsman didn't have the range of modern times.

B) Then ABDV should be given more credit for handling better bowling attacks, but he as an individual batsman was playing in a time period where batsman were evolving and was able to expand his range for modern times.

Good points, wanted to write something similar but my average English writing skills came in way...

 

[shaz619]

Because we ridicule modern batsmen also the same way when they beat up minnows. Nobody rates ABD as the greatest because of his achievements vs minnows. Same rules are applied to Viv by observing the bowling quality on display from footage of his best inngs. This is why none of the Viv supporters have yet to answer my question that I asked in post #39 and post #43

Batting quality is determined by bowling quality.




This has been explained. See my posts earlier using Waqar Younis as example and the BD = AUS example.

He isn't rated so highly because he is a serial choker in crunch games, in that regard he doesn't compare to Viv.

Quality itself is determined by the era you are playing because techniques have evolved to adapt to the evolving sport, so it is useless saying Viv never fought the opposition ABDV did because his technique was equipped to deal with the bowlers of his era while ABDV was equipped to deal with those of his era. What can be compared is how the two handled pressure situations and this is where Viv out performs ABDV.

And Waqar Younis was smacked by a nobody in a crunch game.

 

[hk031992]

Because we ridicule modern batsmen also the same way when they beat up minnows. Nobody rates ABD as the greatest because of his achievements vs minnows. Same rules are applied to Viv by observing the bowling quality on display from footage of his best inngs. This is why none of the Viv supporters have yet to answer my question that I asked in post #39 and post #43

Batting quality is determined by bowling quality.




This has been explained. See my posts earlier using Waqar Younis as example and the BD = AUS example.

I have already answered your questions and disproven your points, particularly regarding the best bowlers of the day. You choose to ignore that.

 

[Tusker]

I have already answered your questions and disproven your points, particularly regarding the best bowlers of the day. You choose to ignore that.

Both SL_Fan and shaz619 agree that overall bowling quality and standard of play today is much higher than it was back in Viv's time especially when you consider the fact that the WI had soo many great bowlers in their side and SA were absent. You can continue to pretend otherwise but it is not going to change the fact.

For example a bowler of Hadlee's speed bowling barely 120Ks is never going to get soo many wkts at that ridiculous avg and s/r .... just aint happening today.

 

[hk031992]

Both SL_Fan and shaz619 agree that overall bowling quality and standard of play today is much higher than it was back in Viv's time especially when you consider the fact that the WI had soo many great bowlers in their side and SA were absent. You can continue to pretend otherwise but it is not going to change the fact.

For example a bowler of Hadlee's speed bowling barely 120Ks is never going to get soo many wkts at that ridiculous avg and s/r .... just aint happening today.

sorry but Hadlee isn't bowling 120 kph, that is comical

 

[Ab Fan]

AB should return back for World Cup 2019.

 

[SL_Fan]

Incredible batting! I don't care if Bangladesh was bowling at him, on that stage under those circumstances it is incredibly ignorant to suggest that the alleged poor bowling quality would negate any pressure. I doubt such individuals have played cricket at any level because any sane individual wouldn't come up with such nonsense and to be fair it's just common sense but I guess that is not so common these days chow

No doubt bro Eng were of course playing at home as well and undefeated that WC. Until they ran into Viv in the final that is. Viv the one man wrecking ball. They don’t call him the king for nothing

 

[SL_Fan]

Sorry but that 86 (66) by CL king looks more impressive. Most probably viv was overshadowed by him.

That was a super knock as well no doubt but when he got out the job was still far from finished (team total 238). It was Viv who yet again stood up tall while wickets continued to tumble all around him and got the job done - after King got out Viv added another 40 odd runs while at the other end 4 wickets fell for just 5 runs.

 

[SL_Fan]

Exactly, he was part of a TEAM and the team failed him more than he failed the team.

Cullinan was a mental midget compared to AB. No bowler dominated AB like Cullinan was bullied. His comments on "pressure" is laughable, to be quite honest.

AB was given role to play in the team and he did it to the best of his ability.

C’mon now how is that an excuse he didn’t play for BD or something. Cullinan was on point in the big games you want your top players to put their hand up and take charge not hide down the order. Guys like Viv, Ponting, Sachin etc didn’t just wait for things to happen on the big stage. They took the challenge head on and made things happen. That’s where AB was clearly lacking.

 

[SL_Fan]

To summarize here are the 3 main points that you have quite deliberately avoided answering or just make blanket statements without any factual/technical evidence as was predicted would happen.

1. Post #37 ( Context behind Bowling quality )
2. Post #39 and #43 ( Need technical explanation of why you consider the quality of bowling is great in those 2 Videos which are best inngs played by Viv you can add 1979 WC footage to it)
3. Overall standard of cricket and the circular logic conundrum ( you do acknowledge that there is improvement in stanards now but somehow this does not mean anything and elsewhere you claim 70s and 80s had better bowling standards ) .
4. No reply to Test match specialist playing ODI cricket like Test cricket with Testmatch batting strike rates.

I have nothing else to add no point going around in circles. You are choosing to only look at certain parts of the picture that agree with your viewpoint while ignoring the rest of it. As I said there’s absolutely nothing that suggests ODI batting post mid 2000s has been tougher than the late 70s and the 80s on the whole (ie when you take into consideration things like pitches, rules and field restrictions, boundary distance, bats and gear etc as well). It’s not just an opinion if you zoom out and have a look at the bigger picture you will realise that’s the case.

The eyes are useless when the mind is blind. We are only as blind as we want to be.

~ Maya Angelou

 

[SL_Fan]

I think you are underrating him massively.

This was a virtual Knockout in a WT20 2014 against a top team, England and he played a phenomenal inning.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/...-africa-26th-match,-group-1-world-t20-2013-14

And WI playing a match in Windies in WC 2007 were hardly minnows as well.

How am I underrating him those are his knocks in ICC tournament finals. All losses. When you have to dig through group stage matches to somehow find a little something you know it’s not looking too good. Btw Eng went on to lose against Netherlands by 45 runs a few days later so fair to say they weren't exactly a major threat.

As for WI barring minnows they only managed to win against Pak during the 2007 WC. Lost to Aus, NZ, SL, SA and Eng. Pak of course lost to Ireland in their next game and along with India failed to make it to the Super eights. Post mid 2000s WI might not be minnows but can hardly be considered a top ODI team either.

 

[SL_Fan]

"Everybody kind of thinks winning the World Cup is the be-all and end-all and defines you as a player. But AB cannot be not defined by that. Everyone is now praising the guy and he has never won the World Cup. He has proved that by just playing amazing cricket, entertaining people and being an amazing person." - Dale Steyn

Sums up some arguments on here quite nicely

Of course Steyn is going to say that. He's in the same leaky boat

 

[Ozymandiasza]

Of course Steyn is going to say that. He's in the same leaky boat

I'll take a Steyn quote over a Cullinan quote any day of the week

C’mon now how is that an excuse he didn’t play for BD or something. Cullinan was on point in the big games you want your top players to put their hand up and take charge not hide down the order. Guys like Viv, Ponting, Sachin etc didn’t just wait for things to happen on the big stage. They took the challenge head on and made things happen. That’s where AB was clearly lacking.

Did you watch the 2015 WC, or any decider of some sort? AB has been awesome, most of the time. He always puts his hand up. His role was different in the Proteas squad. I do, however, always agree that he should have batted higher, but he didn't because cricket is a team sport and he had to fill a gap in the team. Would you not fill a glaring gap with probably the best players on the field? Even in this years IPL, where he bats higher, he was magnificent. Delivering in both kockout "pressure" situations. Either way, AB did not hide from anything. It was a clear and conscious decision, not cowardliness.

We'll never know what could have happened in the WC final though. AB could have scored a brilliant century. His last WC knock-out match was a 65*(45) with 7 overs left before they were forced to stop. We can only wonder what could have been...

I'll end with another Steyn quote on AB as captain: "He only asked for one thing: that you give your best and you pay attention all the time. He would say: keep your eye on the ball and me. If you make a mistake, then it is fine. But if you make a mistake while not paying attention, while not being at full intensity, while not watching your captain, then that was inexcusable." Does that sound like someone who hides?

 

[Hitman]

"Everybody kind of thinks winning the World Cup is the be-all and end-all and defines you as a player. But AB cannot be not defined by that. Everyone is now praising the guy and he has never won the World Cup. He has proved that by just playing amazing cricket, entertaining people and being an amazing person." - Dale Steyn

Sums up some arguments on here quite nicely

Till the 2011 WC, Inzamam was a better batsman than Sachin because Sachin didn't have a World Cup in his kitty. Suddenly after the 2011 WC, players can be great even if they don't have a World Cup to their name.

 

[AZulfi]

I would politely disagree

Ricky Ponting (in his prime) was a more dangerous batsman than AB imo, the closest I have seen to Viv

(ps. talking only about right handers here)

 

[Ozymandiasza]

Till the 2011 WC, Inzamam was a better batsman than Sachin because Sachin didn't have a World Cup in his kitty. Suddenly after the 2011 WC, players can be great even if they don't have a World Cup to their name.

Exactly, it's stupid criteria. Lara also doesn't have a WC. Great players are just... great.

 

[hk031992]

Both SL_Fan and shaz619 agree that overall bowling quality and standard of play today is much higher than it was back in Viv's time especially when you consider the fact that the WI had soo many great bowlers in their side and SA were absent. You can continue to pretend otherwise but it is not going to change the fact.

For example a bowler of Hadlee's speed bowling barely 120Ks is never going to get soo many wkts at that ridiculous avg and s/r .... just aint happening today.

sorry but your opinions are not facts. What evidence do you have that Hadlee was barely bowling 120 kph? A few posters agreeing with you does not make anything factual. I can find tons of posters who would agree with me.

You are the same guy who has continued to insist that virtually all pre 90's bowlers were 1300135 kph trundlers even though i have dismantled that logic time and time again.

 

[hk031992]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv-QOuf8Xik&t=74s

Look how far back the slips are standing. Barely 120 kph? You should never comment on cricket ever again if you believe that. He looks quite a bit faster than Philander who is around 130. Hadlee may not be express but he was not "barely" 120 kph.

Its the same thing with the Holding/McGrath comparison that i have made so many times in the past. Both guys are tall bowlers. However, even a blind man could see that Holding was ALOT faster than the 135 kph McGrath. Not slightly. A LOT. Yet your continual insistence that virtually all pre 90s bowlers were overhyped medium fast trundlers doesn't ever change.

Try and go on any international forum and show them the Holding/McGrath footage and you would get the same response as you would from the posters here. There is no comparison. Guys in the 90's did not magically start bowling 15 kph faster. That is the most illogical and incorrect thing i have ever heard.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Probably true but lacked the swagger and ruthlessness of Viv.

KP had that swagger but AB was the closest to Viv I saw.

Great answer

 

[Harsh Thakor]

I have seen both. AB is more adventurous and better as a pure batting talent. He is also more technically correct than Viv. Viv and KP were similar. Not technically correct, ugly style but both can destroy attacks. Like KP, VIv lacked plan B, always wanted to dominate and threw away starts many times and he was fustrating for his own team. But as time goes, people only keep the best memories and now most people don’t talk about the frustrating part of his batting. Think back to how many times KP threw his wickets because he was egoistical and arrogant that he failed to give due respect to the opposition.

Having said all that, KP was Viv’s successor.

AB is probably the 1st AB.

Not in pure talent Could AB play a great bowler like Lillee or Imran as though he was a spinner ?Compare the bowling Viv faced be it Lillee.Thomson,Imran,Botham,Kapil that too without a helmet!AB has never equaled Viv in peak era from 1976-81.Viv almost won his side 3world cups and his presence played an important role in West Indies being arguably the best team ever in his time.Read what Lillee and Imran say about Viv.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

AB was a top player but no Viv. Viv was a lion.

Absolutely

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Viv was before my time. And from what i have seen, he wasn't a 360 degree player like AB but this is not to say that he wasn't destructive.

Would you consider Wasim Akram a top bowler? I would, and not only that, i would consider him better than anyone out there today except maybe Steyn in tests. Wasim rates Viv very highly. Is he too blinded by old time bias? Is he lying? Why?

The greatest paceman rated Viv the best ever they ever bowled to.Imran,Lillee,Botham.and Hadlee.Read what Mike Holding says about Viv.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Vis is the undisputed king of ODI cricket. During his playing days before massive bats, small boundaries, helmets and fielding restrictions the batting ave in ODIs for the top seven batsmen was just over 29 and the average strike rate was under 66. In comparison Viv averaged 47 with a strike rate in the 90s. At one stage around the eleven year mark and after 100 odd ODIs he was in fact averaging close to 60 with a strike rate in the 90s. Forget about all this 360 degree nonsense Viv has ticked off all the boxes that actually matter and then some. WC grand finals, KOs and prelims, home and away tournaments and bilaterals the whole lot. No one comes even close.

Great points,Viv won many more major tournaments and finals.2world cups.Ahead of ABas a match-winner.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Its not just overhype but if you look at Wasims My XI that he did for Cricinfo 5 yrs back he had these players in his XI: Mark Taylor, Sunny, Alec Stewart, Crowe, Haynes, Inzi, Sanath , Andy Flower , Hooper, Gilchrist , Kallis.

Notice who he left out ? Yep Viv,Lara,SRT,Ponting,Dravid etc ....

This is why you can't take these opinions very seriously.



No one is disputing that Viv was destructive batsman. But his destruction was all against lesser bowlers and bowling attacks. Pakistan had the best ODI bowlers in his time and his avg against Pak is a modest 30 !! He also did not do anything of note against WI bowlers in FC/County cricket.

Viv would have averaged above 60 in tests in the modern era and around 55 in ODI cricket.Pitches much flatter and bats much harder.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Nope Viv in his era was way above everyone in odis. Ab? not sure there is virat, dhoni, amla and many players who have as good stats as him. Yes I agree Ab is little better than them in terms of strike rate but then In Viv's bowling dominated era, helpful pitches and small bats along with small grounds where avg of 35 was considered as good and strike rate of 60 - 70 was good as well there Viv used to avg almost 50 with strike rate of 90. In Ab's era there are already many batsman who avg 50+ and have strike rate of 95+. People will say viv in this era would have struggled compared to ab because he wasn't 360 player. I doubt if ab was playing in viv's era he would have even bothered to think about playing 360 degree (without protection 90% should will be out of context from ab's book)

Absolutely.Viv played in a much harder era . if playing today he would average around 5. Runs more bin tests and ODI cricket.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Lets just say that ABDV was superior in terms of his skill and individual ability on so many levels compared to Viv, but factors which can be compared across distinct era's that are free from bias are mental fortitude, desire, hunger, the will to never give up and how one handles pressure situations. We've had many instances in the past where in key moments great great players faltered when it mattered most even when up against inferior talent, but this is why we value performances in KO stages or crunch knocks in a WC final for example. And [MENTION=132270]SL_Fan[/MENTION] pointed out some of those iconic knocks which embodied mental fortitude, a never say die attitude and an uncanny ability to deliver under immense pressure when the stakes were extremely high, I love ABDV but does he have a knock in any KO stages of a 50 over World Cup which compare to the 138 vs England ?

Sure in era's that followed the game evolved but why should pioneers be disrespected and why should their achievements be disregarded in tough circumstances that too when their numbers far exceeded those of their peers. But one thing is for sure, Viv is mentally tougher and has a bigger set of cricket balls then ABDV ever had; and I'd pick him to bat for my life in the past or present over the South African.

Did not Viv face considerably better bowling?Did not Viv win more important games in tests and ODI s.?Was not Viv more ahead of his peers who were also great?

 

[Ozymandiasza]

The greatest paceman rated Viv the best ever they ever bowled to.Imran,Lillee,Botham.and Hadlee.Read what Mike Holding says about Viv.

This is quite good criteria. Much better than a WC anyway. We'll have to wait a bit and hear what the 'great'(there's really only a handful) bowlers of this generation says.

Mitchell Johnson, although not a bonafide ATG, had one of the scariest purple patches I've ever witnessed. AB faced him in that purple patch and, frankly, looked to be the only player able to manage him. Tbh, Amla did pretty well as well.

Johnson had this to say: "AB de Villiers, he's one outstanding player of our generation. He was always so difficult to get out and a huge challenge. I remember the game at Centurion (in 2014) and I'd got a few quick wickets in that game and he came out to bat and looked so calm and composed and just played his natural game. It really is difficult when someone does come out like that and you're on top of your game. But it really is a great challenge and he's been one of the best players I've played against."

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Honestly I don't think I have anything else to add on this. Don't see the point in going around in circles regurgitating the same ol stuff. As I said nothing points towards ODI batting post mid 2000s being tougher than the late 70s and the 80s on the whole. During the 90s and maybe the early 2000s as well yeah you could make a fair argument that batting was tougher given that there were a lot more quality bowlers going around and the playing conditions were not as heavily tilted towards batsmen. But post mid 2000s definitely not.

Really hit the nail on the head with great examples in all your posts. Vi was simply ab batting genius like arguably no one.

 

[shaz619]

Did not Viv face considerably better bowling?Did not Viv win more important games in tests and ODI s.?Was not Viv more ahead of his peers who were also great?

I've not denied any of those points but advocated his greatness even with the acceptance of an opposing view if you've followed my posts in this thread

 

[Harsh Thakor]

All your questions have already been answered, like I said; I am agreeing with you that ABDV is a levels above Viv when it comes to his skills but what has he got to show for it in his career when he had many opportunities to win a trophy? Viv on the other hand delivered one for his country in an iconic knock under immense pressure.

Now you will say that his knock was not impressive because of opposition quality or how he was not up against bowlers from his team (hardly his fault), but you've already accepted that batsman during that period were inferior given how the game was still evolving; so Vivs ability to perform under pressure relative to those he had to face can be compared to ABDV against those whom he encountered, they both faced similar challenges relative to their own individual ability and that of their opponents. Viv was hardly a batsman from the 2010s was he. Anyhow this is where there is no comparison, Viv and his impact ability in important games exceeds that of ABDV who is a great in his own right.

Totally agree.Bowling considerably better.Imran,Lille,Hadkee,Thomson and Willis were part of a golden era of pace bowling.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Skill wise you won't find anyone better than de Villiers. Comfortably the most versatile and complete batsman of the game. I am not sure if Viv had the defensive technique and temperament to block for a whole day to save a Test.

However, Viv's achievements are nothing to scoff at. Certainly the best ODI batsman of all time for now, but Kohli is right on his heels. Someone of de Villiers' capabilities should have been the undisputed number one, but he has not been able to deliver those crunch knocks under pressure, and his reluctance to bat up the order cost South Africa plenty of games, most notably the 2015 World Cup semifinal.

Wasim was a rookie when Viv played him. Anyhow Viv's avg against Pak is just 30.92 ... nothing extraordinary. As I said earlier all the tall stories that you hear about Viv was all achieved against the lesser bowlers. And no the WI bowlers were by far the best bowlers of that ERA. These are the hard facts that you simply cannot deny.

Did Devillliers face as great bowling as Viv or win as many important games and finals?Had an advantage of playing against minnows and on flatefctracks.Viv was better against supreme pace.Viv would have averaged over 5 runs more had he played today in both forms of cricket.