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Does India have the worst tail-enders in ODI cricket?

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mayankp.sverige

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Except for Bhuvneshwar none can bat or hit a big 6 when needed.
In 2000s we had better tailenders like Agarkar, Bhajji, Srinath, Kumble, Zaheer, Praveen Kumar who won several close games with their batting for India.

Current line up have walking wickets like Kuldeep, Chahal, Bumrah
 
I believe so.

India had player like Harbhajan, Agarkar who could bat and score the odd 15-20 in odi's and come up with runs in test matches to frustrate the opposition.
 
Even Bangaldesh have very good tailenders and middle order , most of the time its their lower and middle order who is scoring runs for them.
India has worst middle and tail
 
We indeed have. Among the frontline bowlers, Bhuvi is very good, Kuldeep will do okay as he plays more (has a first class 100) but Chahal and Bumrah are proper number 11s.
 
Yes. At a time when India needs a strong tail (due to Dhoni’s decline and no replacement for Yuvraj/Raina) it has one of the weakest in world cricket. And if Bhuvi doesn’t play then someone like Umesh comes in and you’re then left with Kuldeep, Umesh, Chahal and Bumrah as your 8-11.
 
If you need your no. 9, 10 and 11 to score runs at greater than 6rpo in an ODI, you're probably screwed anyway.

So yeah, it's more of an observation that Indian tail is weak rather than a significant pain point
 
Perhaps the worst. But to be honest, not sure if I have seen any of the three bat in a ODI. I would be surprised if the three had more than 15-20 innings combined.
 
That's why I feel only one out of Chahal & Kuldeep should play (they can be rotated and both can be in the squad though) The other spinner should be preferably an alrounder like Jadeja, Krunal, etc (even if he is a finger spinner never mind! At times you need a finger spinner if the pitch holds or if the outfield is wet!) Also Bhuvaneshwar should be in the side for this sole reason even if he has poor strike rate for wickets so far (he can improve, it could be bad luck factors!) We can bear Bumrah's batting (let him be proper No.11) for the way he is going onto become No.1 all time pacer for India!

With this much adjustments + our gigantic Top.3 we don't actually need England kind of tail! Only tightening that is needed is in the middle order! The below is the proper ODI template for India

Rohit
Dhawan
Kohli
XXX
XXX
XXX
Pandya
Bhuvaneshwar
Kuldeep
XXX
Bumrah

The 4 spots I mentioned (exactly at those batting positions) are vacant according to me (including Dhoni/WK). I think Dhoni (if he is sane) can reassess his decision to play in World Cup (especially after the way he struggled in his favorite slow conditions in UAE) If Pant is roped in as WK (he may not keep wickets like Dhoni in his prime and may not do the finisher role like Dhoni at No.6) but he can suit very well to No.4 spot which has become crucial for India. He has the temperament to play longer innings at good strike rate, so he can complement the top 3 batsmen very well. I think he can be more effective than Rahul who seems is only an alternate/substitute Opener option! One important observation that KP in the commentary mentioned during last India's game that a No.4 batsman should have the hunger for scoring centuries (and seen DK without any century playing at that position!) I guess Pant is the best among the lot to have that hunger!

No.5 issue is relatively easier compared to No.4, where we have guys like Pandey, Jadhav, etc, fighting (even Rayudu should fight for this spot actually!) But I am not happy with any of these and won't mind if someone else more effective guy takes up this spot!

No.6 is also in a dilemma just like No.4, where we actually need that Dhoni kind of finisher! Not sure from where we can get this guy (that's why others feel India is top heavy team, and if they get through it, they can attack India like anything!) Pandya cannot be relied upon for this position. He is not that consistent & he cannot play longer innings! At the most he can bat at No.7.

Also we need to decide whether we should go with 2 spinners or 1 spinner. In my opinion Pandya can be more effective as a 4th seamer! It will also depend on the conditions in England (sometimes England pitches assist spinners). They all can be in the squad, but right decision has to be taken according to the conditions & opponents (That's where the intelligence of our dumb captain and coach comes into picture! These two are even bigger weaknesses more than our team composition/squad!)
 
Forget tail-end, from No 4 onwards India is one of the worst. Just that top 3 is so good
 
mayankp.sverige said:
Ravindra Jadeja and Ashwin addition can make the tail much stronger
Click to expand...

Ashwin is not that good in LOIs anyways (he has regressed even in Tests). His lack in fielding & running between wickets doesn't help either. More than that Chahal/Kuldeep have outbowled him in ODIs (Ashwin was playing till then only because he was the best spinner in India)
 
With the way things are going I would actually consider calling back Rahane in LOIs... He can be played at No.5 (Not in Top 3, and not as an opener - that's why he failed to match the tempo) The white ball from spinners is not going to hurt him much as in tests! He has that hunger to play longer innings and rotate strike much better & gives more hope/confidence compared to Rayudu, Karthik, etc. He can do that rescue job whenever there is early collapse where he won't be required to score at brisk pace!

P.S: Rahane is not that great either, but I'm only looking at him because we are considering absolute duds like DK in the team!
 
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RamLakhan said:
With the way things are going I would actually consider calling back Rahane in LOIs... He can be played at No.5 (Not in Top 3, and not as an opener - that's why he failed to match the tempo) The white ball from spinners is not going to hurt him much as in tests! He has that hunger to play longer innings and rotate strike much better & gives more hope/confidence compared to Rayudu, Karthik, etc. He can do that rescue job whenever there is early collapse where he won't be required to score at brisk pace!

P.S: Rahane is not that great either, but I'm only looking at him because we are considering absolute duds like DK in the team!
Click to expand...

Rahane is a mental midget apart from a pathetic ODI batsman. Other guys are atleast mentally tough comparatively.
 
WengerOut said:
Rahane is a mental midget apart from a pathetic ODI batsman. Other guys are atleast mentally tough comparatively.
Click to expand...

He played some good innings in WC'15. I don't think these guys can play like that especially in England... Yes I understand he has some mental issues... But the main reason for this is he was used as opener at times in LOIs (during Dhoni's times, it was a poor decision!) Now that the Top 3 is settled, he can be seen if he is any good at No.5.

The reason why I am bringing him back is because selection committee thinks that we have dearth of talent & they are reluctant to try youngsters and are looking for experienced candidates!
 
Really?

Fakhar
Imam
Babar
Malik
-----
-----
-----
Amir
Hasan
-----
-----
 
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Team balance is the biggest worry for India.

India have 6 world class players. The top 3 and the bottom 3. The middle is mediocre to say the least.

The problem is the top 3 can't bowl and the bottom 3 can't bat to save their lives.
 
Lol, what is this thread about? Have you ever seen the Pakistani tail?
 
They did the job today so keeo quiet.

Peopel need to cry all the time.
 
Yes.

if we consider all the 16 teams which have odi status then Scotland & Nepal have weaker tail than us.
 
RamLakhan said:
Ashwin is not that good in LOIs anyways (he has regressed even in Tests). His lack in fielding & running between wickets doesn't help either. More than that Chahal/Kuldeep have outbowled him in ODIs (Ashwin was playing till then only because he was the best spinner in India)
Click to expand...

Ashwin was playing for india bcoz he was dhoni's boy otherwise Amit mishra was india's best spinner at that time. Dhoni ruined Amit mishra's career.
 
munaf4u said:
Ashwin was playing for india bcoz he was dhoni's boy otherwise Amit mishra was india's best spinner at that time. Dhoni ruined Amit mishra's career.
Click to expand...

Part about Ashwin is correct, but Amit Mishra being the best is wrong in my opinion. That guy just trembles when batsman starts aggressive. He can only bully on mining pitches or minnows.
 
WengerOut said:
Part about Ashwin is correct, but Amit Mishra being the best is wrong in my opinion. That guy just trembles when batsman starts aggressive. He can only bully on mining pitches or minnows.
Click to expand...

He was not given enough chance. He still have good stats in all formats including FC. For many years he was strike bowler for his IPL franchise and very economical also. He was an attacking bowler and would have better figures than ashwin if he was played in his prime. I rate him very high. Talent got wasted due to sports politics.
 
India’s tail today.

A washed up Dhoni at 6 then:

B Kumar
Kuldeep
Chahal
Bumrah
Ahmed.

Dire!
 
Tyler Durden said:
Today's tail starts from Pant. He has been ordinary in LOIs so far.
Click to expand...

Pant is phenomenal. Only a matter of time before he starts delivering in ODIs and T20Is as well.

The best WK batsman in Asia by some distance. Mushfiq is very good as well, but Pant is something special.
 
Gabbar Singh said:
India’s tail today.

A washed up Dhoni at 6 then:

B Kumar
Kuldeep
Chahal
Bumrah
Ahmed.

Dire!
Click to expand...

We don't need to play both Kuldeep & Chahal every time. Kuldeep should be the main spinner. Chahal can be in the squad and play the odd matches based on rotation (like if the opponents have only right handers) Both can play only if the pitch is really dry (like day matches), assisting spinners heavily or if the opponents are too weak against spinners! The other spinner spot has to definitely go to a finger spinner, we do need darters when the opposition are looking to score heavily and if there is dew in the field.

And that finger spinner should be a reasonable alrounder! Clear instruction has to be given to Jadeja that if you want to play in LOIs he is got to improve his batting (got to get serious about his batting! Always had the ability for that but never applied himself! India could have taken a risk of promoting him up the order in some of the lesser games against Bangladesh, WI, Zim, etc, in the past! Not now as the WC is approaching! He could have probably improved his batting like N.Boje, P.Symcox, etc, did for SA & A.Razzak for Pakistan!)

Another option is to give more responsibility to Jadhav in bowling. Pandya should at least improve his LOI batting & bowling (good that he is given break from Tests for now). Then we can rely on Jadhav, Pandya and Jadeja to bowl the 20 overs in combination (or add Bhuvi to this list to share 30 overs between them! Then these 4 can improve our late order/tail!) We could have thought someone else in place of Jadeja, but its too late now! At least Jadeja is too good in fielding which adds to the value and he has experience (his experience is at least better than Dhoni's experience practically as it serves our utility in a better way!) The team can be something like this: (as we can't make anymore experiments of trying new guys)

Rohit
Dhawan
Kohli
Rayudu
Pant
Jadhav
Pandya
Jadeja
Bhuvaneshwar
Kuldeep
Bumrah

But I know in WC (unless it is spin friendly) we should replace Jadeja with a seamer and it lengthens the tail! Ideally I wanted Jadeja ahead of even Jadhav because he is far good in field, has good fitness, only his batting is the hindrance (but had the capability to be better bat than Jadhav at least to play at No.7 after Pandya! That would have solved many problems with Bhuvi coming at No.8!)
 
The question is how many innings combined have the current bottom three of Kuldeep, Chahal and Bumrah played? I would say no more the 15 between the three of them. So not sure if their batting ability is that relevant in the bigger scheme of things.
 
Excellent thread.

Tail matters.

Bumrah and Chahal cant hold a bat.

Kuldeep is a slow scorer but can stay.

Khalil is hopeless i guess.

Lol.
 
A good example today of why you need a strong lower order. If this was say England at 7 down they'd still have potential match winners left whereas it's a bit of a hopeless situation for India - barring a minor miracle the tail won't be able to do anything special here.
 
Can someone explain to me why it is so hard for bowlers to hit boundaries and bat properly? Lots don't even have a proper stance or techniques, how hard can it seriously be if you're getting paid to play this sport to at least be somewhat capable in batting.

Seeing batsmen like Mohammad Irfan hold a bat boils my blood
 
Recent series against England, 2nd ODI - India was losing the match, Chahal scored a boundary and he lifted his bat and shamelessly entire Indian team from lords pavilion laughed and clapped. This is the level of arrogance of this team, that even when they are losing, they laugh about incompetence of a player. Chahal has no business to ridicule his own batting, he's playing for the country and should rather try to improve rather than laughing about it.
 
Gabbar Singh said:
A good example today of why you need a strong lower order. If this was say England at 7 down they'd still have potential match winners left whereas it's a bit of a hopeless situation for India - barring a minor miracle the tail won't be able to do anything special here.
Click to expand...
Depends on the kind of players in your arsenal and whether you'd rather look for wickets by picking regular bowlers or outbat the opposition by having a longer batting line-up.

When Dhoni was captain, we had a longer batting line-up because we made up 10 overs of bowling from the part-timers. Would you have Krunal Pandya and Jadeja replacing Chahal and Kuldeep Yadav? What if when you're only playing one spinner? Do we have another decent fast-bowling all-rounder other than Pandya?
 
India will 100% face early exit in the world cup. They messed up big big time carrying passengers for long time.
 
If WC XI does have BK, Kuldeep, Shami, Chahal & JB in bottom 5 - it'll be trouble indeed. Another problem is, now hardly any of the batsmen bowl regularly; therefore 6+1+4 combination is also risky, and in UK 3 spinners are not feasible. May be, now Pandeya is indeed a key instead of Shami - that makes a bottom 6 of MSD, HP, BK, KY, Chahal & JB.
 
It’s not as if imad shadab and faheem do anything with the bat for Pakistan. Heck as of late I’ve had way more confidence in Hassan Ali.
 
MMHS said:
If WC XI does have BK, Kuldeep, Shami, Chahal & JB in bottom 5 - it'll be trouble indeed. Another problem is, now hardly any of the batsmen bowl regularly; therefore 6+1+4 combination is also risky, and in UK 3 spinners are not feasible. May be, now Pandeya is indeed a key instead of Shami - that makes a bottom 6 of MSD, HP, BK, KY, Chahal & JB.
Click to expand...

You always say pick your best bats and bowlers no?
 
I like that India has gone the way of the 90s when the tail used to be long. Too much emphasis has been placed unnecessarily on the tail knowing how to bat. With the kind of batting India possesses, they don't need a tail to score runs. India has found 4 genuine wicket taking bowlers who are focusing only on what they are good at i.e. their bowling. What they lack is that genuine all rounder who can change the game with both bat and ball i.e. an Abdul Razzaq in his hey days. Pandya is definitely not a good bowler and while his batting is good, he's far too inconsistent. If they can get Pandya to deliver on both fronts, the tail being worst in batting won't even matter.
 
Batting apart from top 3 is rubbish.. We have 8 tailenders in the team. Worst batting line up ever
 
Yes and our tail starts from No 4. We can not win world cup on top 3. There are chances that that will fail in any match and in that case we are doomed. We don't expect our lower order or Tail to finish matches. hell they can't score at brisk pace in death overs how can they survive ??
 
Dhoni, Rayudu, DK, Jadhav, etc, (all 30+ and worn out) in the middle order were political/emotional selections! Looks like they all took us for granted. Friendship, Favoritism, Money, IPL masked everything!
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
You always say pick your best bats and bowlers no?
Click to expand...

Yes - top 4 bowlers in ODI & Test, top 5 bowlers in T20 (because of the short duration - if top 4 do their job, rest batsmen are useless, better to make solid 20 overs).
 
MMHS said:
Yes - top 4 bowlers in ODI & Test, top 5 bowlers in T20 (because of the short duration - if top 4 do their job, rest batsmen are useless, better to make solid 20 overs).
Click to expand...

What if those bowlers are all number 11s.

6 down becomes like 9 down.
 
sensible-indian-fan said:
What if those bowlers are all number 11s.

6 down becomes like 9 down.
Click to expand...

Still. A batsman can bat for 50 overs, bowler can bowl only 10. If you have 6 batsmen & an all-rounder with 4 McGrath from 7 to 11, still you can put a decent total & defend or chase. Bowling is the king of the game.
 
MMHS said:
Still. A batsman can bat for 50 overs, bowler can bowl only 10. If you have 6 batsmen & an all-rounder with 4 McGrath from 7 to 11, still you can put a decent total & defend or chase. Bowling is the king of the game.
Click to expand...

What if the 4 bowlers are not McGrath but Kumble?

Or a Kyle Mills?
 
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sensible-indian-fan said:
What if the 4 bowlers are not McGrath but Kumble?

Or a Kyle Mills?
Click to expand...

Best 4 bowlers of the country + an all rounder. Depending on condition the combination can vary from 0.5 spinners to 2.5 spinners.

Recently, SRL tried to cover lack of quality bowler with several all-rounders, it took them below AFGs; now they are back to at least 3 specialist bowler stage.

Obviously, you can expect some runs from last 4, and pick the better 2 batsmen between no 3 to no 5, may be 6 bowlers, but top 3 bowlers must be on absolute bowling merit.
 
MMHS said:
Best 4 bowlers of the country + an all rounder. Depending on condition the combination can vary from 0.5 spinners to 2.5 spinners.

Recently, SRL tried to cover lack of quality bowler with several all-rounders, it took them below AFGs; now they are back to at least 3 specialist bowler stage.

Obviously, you can expect some runs from last 4, and pick the better 2 batsmen between no 3 to no 5, may be 6 bowlers, but top 3 bowlers must be on absolute bowling merit.
Click to expand...

Got it. Thank you.
 
Pathetic tail.


pEaj6dQk.jpg
 
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Looks like India are going to stick with playing two specialist spinners meaning the tail will be:

B Kumar: batting average of 15;
Kuldeep: 12.50
Chahal: 8.50
Bumrah: 3.60


Australia currently showing us the importance of bowlers who can bat well.
 
Gabbar Singh said:
Looks like India are going to stick with playing two specialist spinners meaning the tail will be:

B Kumar: batting average of 15;
Kuldeep: 12.50
Chahal: 8.50
Bumrah: 3.60


Australia currently showing us the importance of bowlers who can bat well.
Click to expand...

not really as they concede way lesser runs and take wickets. so many 150-250 chases for india since kulcha.
 
Earlier under Dhoni India used to have Sehwag , Tendulkar , Yuvi , Raina , who could bowl 10 - 15 overs.

Even Ganguly went in with extra batsmen.

If India wants to increase there batting , Jadeja has to play.
 
Gabbar Singh said:
Looks like India are going to stick with playing two specialist spinners meaning the tail will be:

B Kumar: batting average of 15;
Kuldeep: 12.50
Chahal: 8.50
Bumrah: 3.60


Australia currently showing us the importance of bowlers who can bat well.
Click to expand...

When we will smash Coulter and Zampa many Aussiss will learn value of bowlers who can bowl well first.
 
I think in many games we will see Shami (better bowler) instead of Bhuvi and Jadeja (better batsman) instead of Kuldeep. Whether Jadeja can ever bat well in a tough situation and score runs is a separate discussion.
 
They're tail isn't very good with the XI's they've played in previous games but they can bring in other bowlers who can bat decently if they wanted to, but that could affect their potency with the ball.
 
You cannot play bowlers because they can bat. Not all teams are as lucky as Australia or England. Indias best bowlers cannot bat. Either they need to work on their batting or the team needs to just deal with it. Bumrah is worlds best and Shami is a good white ball bowler, you don't drop them because they cannot bat. Kuldeep is a decent bat can develop into someone who can contribute regularly.
 
Overrated tail enders

Top class bowlers which matters
 
Australia against any other good bowling attack (say India) on that day wouldn't have crossed much more than 200 once they were in that situation! The match was won more because of lack of depth in WI bowling than Australia's strength in tail...! Similarly Indian batsman would not have faltered below 200 on that pitch, if they did so the bowlers would also have tried to defend 200...

The problem with Indian team is not tail... It will be utter non-sense if you build the team through such negative approach (replacing good bowlers with average bowlers who can bat!) There is only one significant problem in the Indian team which is middle order (that's why you are looking at the tail...) No.4 to No.7 is not settled that's the issue, but they are not so bad actually & they are capable for those roles, unfortunately they are not settled or we didn't groom proper alternatives or not found them!

Good middle order batsmen also know how to play along with tail and in fact they will also teach them how to bat in real match situations (Which they wouldn't have learnt in nets or domestics!) That's how tailenders develop their batting! Not by getting into the team through backdoors with bits & piece skills (some batting & some bowling!)

Also it is only so much the tail can do actually! (A.Donald in WC. With all the deadly alrounders SA had till No.10 they just needed their No.11 to have some running skills! So what? Drop a great bowler like him for this reason?)
 
Jadeja going to win it for India. Great bowling, great fielding and great batting
 
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