"Dont want to be associated with countries who take opportunities off half their population" T Paine

[Shafi]

Paine is a waste of space on the Australian team. Their idiocy prevents them from getting rid of dead weight and forming a more capable team.

Exactly!!!! He is one of the worst player I have ever seen in Australia side. The guy has lack of leadership skill, very poor keeper and one of the worst batsman. Don't know how he got captaincy after so many defeats plus his pathetic performances. Must have a powerful connection.

 

[Rana]

Paine is a waste of space on the Australian team. Their idiocy prevents them from getting rid of dead weight and forming a more capable team.

He also said something like he soiled his trousers once instead of taking a break during a match. The guy is not right up in the head

 

[Abu_Hamza]

One question which keeps getting brushed over is Afghanistan’s previous governments sentiments to a women’s team, because as far as I know they also did not want a women’s cricket team, and the talibans stance isn’t a million miles away from their original thinking, could this be why icc has been so quite?

Their wasnt any official statement made by previous govt. like Taliban did on women's team. Thats the difference. Taliban has certainy made their intentions clear. Thats the difference.

 

[Abu_Hamza]

Its so embarassing to see that people are okay with only men's team of Afghanistan playing cricket but not women's team. And then ppl say that why men dont support for women's cause.

 

[gazza619]

Paine has no business talking about this.

Its ACB who decides. Its better he keeps his mouth shut.

 

[Saj]

Former Afghanistan captain Asghar Afghan has slammed Australia's Test skipper Tim Paine for his comments on boycotting the matches against the Afghanistan team in the men's T20 World Cup starting from October 17 in the UAE. Afghan's post comes after Paine said on his morning breakfast show on SEN Hobart that a boycott of matches against Afghanistan in the mega event is "something that teams will discuss on the eve of that World Cup".

"How a team like that can be allowed to play in an ICC-sanctioned event is going to be very, very hard to see," Paine had said on Friday. Afghanistan has been in a state of turmoil since the Taliban took over the country. There has been no clarity on the future of women's cricket in the country despite acting chairman of Afghanistan Cricket Board (ACB) Azizullah Fazli saying to SBS Pashto that decision on women's cricket in the country will be made soon.

"Mr. Paine! The Afghan National Cricket Team has the right to play not only in this World Cup but in all ICC organized tournaments/events in accordance with the rules and regulations of ICC, and I'm sure that our brave National Heroes will perform their best in it and showcase their elite Talents Inshallah," wrote Afghan in his Facebook post late on Saturday.

The 33-year-old told Paine to not make statements that would lead to Afghanistan cricket being isolated. "As a sportsperson and professional cricketer, you know that it requires too much of hard work and dedication to reach this level of cricket. For a less privileged cricketing Nation as Afghanistan with zero infrastructure and support reaching where we are right now and playing shoulder to shoulder with top 10 countries require sheer determination, passion, and talent. Therefore, you should refrain from delivering aggressive statements which would result in isolating the Afghan Cricket."

"Cricket is now the No#1 Sport in Afghanistan and is being followed by nearly 30 million Afghans. This shows, either you are unaware of the circumstances or talking out of contradiction; in any case, you are mistreating Afghan Cricket and all the gains we have obtained with hardship in the past decade. (Sports should be separated from politics)," concluded Afghan.

Afghan is a part of Afghanistan's squad for the men's T20 World Cup. They open their campaign against a qualifier team from Round 1 on October 25 in Sharjah. Afghanistan are in Group 2 alongside two yet-to-be-known qualifiers, 2007 champions India, 2009 champions Pakistan and New Zealand.

https://www.indiatvnews.com/sports/...ralia-s-tim-paine-for-boycott-comments-733539

 

[MenInG]

MELBOURNE (Reuters) -Cricket Australia (CA) confirmed on Friday it has postponed the Afghanistan test in Hobart scheduled for Nov. 27 until the situation regarding the women’s game in the South Asian nation becomes clearer.

CA had said in September it would scrap the test if the Taliban government, which took power in August, did not allow women and girls to play the sport.

“Following extensive consultation with relevant stakeholders, Cricket Australia and the Afghanistan Cricket Board have agreed to postpone the inaugural men’s test match against Afghanistan,” CA said in a statement.

“CA is committed to support growing the game for women and men in Afghanistan and around the world, however, given the present uncertainty, CA felt it necessary to postpone the test match until a later time when the situation is clearer.”

Afghanistan’s remarkable rise in cricket in recent years has been the sport’s biggest fairytale but the strife-torn nation risks isolation following the country’s Taliban takeover.

Taliban officials have said they will not repeat the harsh rule of their previous government, which banned most girls’ education and forbade women from going out in public without a male guardian.

The Afghan cricket board has requested the support of other full members of the International Cricket Council as it looks to retain its place in global cricket.

Afghanistan’s status is set to be discussed at an ICC meeting on the sidelines of the T20 World Cup in the United Arab Emirates.

Despite the test postponement, CA said it looked forward to hosting Afghanistan players -- “who are great ambassadors for the game” -- in Australia’s upcoming domestic T20 competition, the Big Bash League.

The board said it also looked forward to hosting both the Afghan women’s and men’s teams in the “not-too-distant future”.

CA said in early September it would call off the test if media reports that women’s cricket would be banned in Afghanistan were substantiated.

The threat followed a report by Australian broadcaster SBS which quoted a Taliban representative as saying cricket was “not necessary” for women.

Australia’s sports minister Richard Colbeck said at the time the Taliban’s position was “deeply concerning”.

The Australian government cancelled a tour of Zimbabwe in 2007 over former president Robert Mugabe’s crackdown on political opponents in the African country.

Australia did not play South Africa from 1971 until the end of apartheid.

Australia’s test team had planned to use the Afghanistan match to prepare for the Ashes series against England starting Dec. 8 in Brisbane.

Instead Australia’s players will have an internal three-day match from Dec. 1 in Brisbane, about two weeks after the squad is announced in mid-November.

CA also published England’s warmup arrangements, with Joe Root’s team playing the second-string England Lions twice in Brisbane from Nov. 23-25 and Nov. 30-Dec. 3.

 

[Gilly]

Paine has no business talking about this.

Its ACB who decides. Its better he keeps his mouth shut.

Paine can talk about whatever he wants, if he wants to highlight how women are being oppressed then that is his right.

 

[OmarKhan99]

Paine can talk about whatever he wants, if he wants to highlight how women are being oppressed then that is his right.

No, what Paine is doing is engaging in a discussion above his intellectual pay grade. He's suggesting a hilariously naive approach to an incredibly nuanced and multi-faceted conflict.

However, I've said this before and I'll say it again, I couldn't be less bothered about what CA, ECB, etc. do or don't do for Afghan Cricket. I just want PCB to play its part in trying to help all the struggling boards, and ACB is one big one that will require lots of support in the next couple of years. If PCB has learnt anything from the past, it's that international isolation can be very damaging, both financially and cricket-wise.

I'm sure PCB and some of the other ally boards will play their part, and that's what really matters.

 

[Gilly]

No, what Paine is doing is engaging in a discussion above his intellectual pay grade. He's suggesting a hilariously naive approach to an incredibly nuanced and multi-faceted conflict.

.

Paine can talk about whatever he wants, it has nothing to do with pay grade, how nuanced or multi faceted it is. If women are being discriminated against there are no excuses.

 

[OmarKhan99]

Paine can talk about whatever he wants, it has nothing to do with pay grade, how nuanced or multi faceted it is. If women are being discriminated against there are no excuses.

That's not how it works. As someone with a decent following, it's quite important to be careful and precise with your words. With more media presence, you have additional responsibility. So when someone of high profile makes generalized/over-simplified statements they are rightfully criticised.

If you want to understand why it's a ridiculous statement, just read up on the 3rd page of this thread: "The Future of Afghanistan Cricket" - http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?266949-The-future-of-Afghanistan-Cricket/page3

 

[Gilly]

That's not how it works. As someone with a decent following, it's quite important to be careful and precise with your words. With more media presence, you have additional responsibility. So when someone of high profile makes generalized/over-simplified statements they are rightfully criticised.

If you want to understand why it's a ridiculous statement, just read up on the 3rd page of this thread: "The Future of Afghanistan Cricket" - http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?266949-The-future-of-Afghanistan-Cricket/page3

How it works is Paine can say what he likes, nothing more to it.

 

[OmarKhan99]

How it works is Paine can say what he likes, nothing more to it.

Paine can say what he likes, just like a random person in the street who claims to have found a miracle cure can say what they like. That doesn't mean they won't be scrutinised for their ridiculously naive statements, and be advised to equip themselves with more context about the topic before speaking on it.

 

[Major]

Paine has no business talking about this.

Its ACB who decides. Its better he keeps his mouth shut.

Paine is captain he can talk about this.

This scrutinizing players over little things is something that happens in pakistan. We like to control players here


Time paine is an australian.

 

[FreakCricket]

This stupid colonizer's prisoner has no idea what he's talking about, should we stop playing cricket with UK or Australia, or even South Africa for what they have done to the world? From Colonization, exploitation, genocide, and spreading diseases - these people have no moral high ground.

Don't blame Afghan cricket for what their country is going through!

 

[MP2011]

I fail to understand why Tim Paine commented on the situation.

Such a respected, world-class captain and brilliant batsman who scores so often for his team. Surely his opinion means a lot.

lol, this.

Paine has this disease of putting foot in mouth. He needs to shut up and concentrate on his cricket career which appears in doldrums.

 

[UzmanBeast]

Paine is captain he can talk about this.

This scrutinizing players over little things is something that happens in pakistan. We like to control players here


Time paine is an australian.

Paine has no status in the game that his words merit any weight on the topic itself.

He is simply wasting air by speaking nonsense.

 

[UzmanBeast]

lol, this.

Paine has this disease of putting foot in mouth. He needs to shut up and concentrate on his cricket career which appears in doldrums.

His career will come to an end within this year.

Australia should move past a player whose only role should be to carry drinks.

 

[MP2011]

His career will come to an end within this year.

Should have ended last year itself when Australia couldn't beat a greenhorn Indian team at fortress Gabba.

 

[Major]

Paine has no status in the game that his words merit any weight on the topic itself.

He is simply wasting air by speaking nonsense.

He has the status of being an Australian Test Captain. You and me are the ones who dont have any status yet we discuss cricket online

 

[UzmanBeast]

He has the status of being an Australian Test Captain. You and me are the ones who dont have any status yet we discuss cricket online

He might be a captain but I can assure you, he's the last name on the Australian team and the last name opposing teams look at when facing Australia.

Both you and I know that he is a dolly captain, and even recently, his keeping skills have come under scrutiny. Had he not dropped important chances of Nathan Lyon when he bowled to Pant, his team would have saved themselves some embarrassment.

Nevertheless, you make a fair point.

However, it takes some international reputation to have a meaningful impact on a situation when speaking. A good captain does not need to comment on politics in the modern-day and age, all he is doing is acting like a person in authority, acting like he is someone who made that decision himself.

CA have been a notoriously idiotic board with the way they have approached the media. Sandpapergate where they thought sending Smith and Bancroft to say sorry would fix their ball-tampering scandal (lucky that ICC was delusional as usual because it's quite clear the whole team was involved).

 

[UzmanBeast]

Should have ended last year itself when Australia couldn't beat a greenhorn Indian team at fortress Gabba.

On batting ability, I'd place Pat Cummins ahead of Tim Paine.

Criminal how Cummins hasn't been appointed test captain, such a good test-match cricketer.

Once Paine leaves, Australia can groom a young keeper for the role.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Paine is reading a word for word readout from his board who have found a convenient excuse to not play a test match against a side that will not bring them enough eye-balls and ticket sales, and make them go to the trouble of dealing with the Tasmania state government on account of the border restrcitions.

Paine has made a deal with Cricket Australia to be their lackey in exchange for prolonging his career, which should have been over 2 years ago had it not been for Sandpapergate.

Because if Paine had two functioning brain cells, he would know that he has no right to judge any country when his own country is built on the genocide of its native aboriginal populace.

 

[Kroll]

Paine is reading a word for word readout from his board who have found a convenient excuse to not play a test match against a side that will not bring them enough eye-balls and ticket sales, and make them go to the trouble of dealing with the Tasmania state government on account of the border restrcitions.

Paine has made a deal with Cricket Australia to be their lackey in exchange for prolonging his career, which should have been over 2 years ago had it not been for Sandpapergate.

Because if Paine had two functioning brain cells, he would know that he has no right to judge any country when his own country is built on the genocide of its native aboriginal populace.

Exactly, modern Australia has been built upon the genocide and persecution of others.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Aussies as part of an occupying force killed thousands of Afghan women.

Keep politics out of sport. Australians arent the good guys.

ICC will not ban Afghanistan mens team, just wont happen.

Btw In the UAE homosexuality is illegal, yet Paine will come to play cricket & enjoy the 5* hotels without losing any sleep.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

On batting ability, I'd place Pat Cummins ahead of Tim Paine.

Criminal how Cummins hasn't been appointed test captain, such a good test-match cricketer.

Once Paine leaves, Australia can groom a young keeper for the role.

Appointing a fast-bowler captain of your side is rarely a good idea. No matter how good that player is. Especially if he's cranking it up to 140+ on a regular basis.

I think the more disappointing thing for Australia is that all the potential future captains they had their eyes on have turned out to be duds. Whether its Mitch Marsh, Peter Handscomb or Travis Head.

I think the easier thing for CA to do right now would be to just go back to Steve Smith. Its been 3 years people have moved on. And if they didn't want him to become captain again they would have explicitly said it like they did with Warner.

 

[Monsee]

In all honesty, it would be extremely awkward for western countries to engage in sports activities with Afghanistan teams under the Taliban regime. You couldn't have a more contrasting clash of values and philosophies.

I suppose the western nations would probably look the other way if Afghanistan had economic clout like China or had petrol to offer like the Saudis, but the Afghans have none of these but only a rudimentary economy. So I highly doubt any sports activity happening in the near future between western nations and Afghanistan. It's back to the days of South Africa under apartheid.

Most of these countries were also involved with the U.S. (including Aussies) in the attack on Afghanistan and the occupation for quite a few years...not seeing any Afghani player or one from another country throwing that in their face!

 

[Technics 1210]

How it works is Paine can say what he likes, nothing more to it.

Yes he can, but domestic violence in Australia is all but lost on him, which is why Paine looks and sounds like a joker.

 

[Major]

He might be a captain but I can assure you, he's the last name on the Australian team and the last name opposing teams look at when facing Australia.

Both you and I know that he is a dolly captain, and even recently, his keeping skills have come under scrutiny. Had he not dropped important chances of Nathan Lyon when he bowled to Pant, his team would have saved themselves some embarrassment.

Nevertheless, you make a fair point.

However, it takes some international reputation to have a meaningful impact on a situation when speaking. A good captain does not need to comment on politics in the modern-day and age, all he is doing is acting like a person in authority, acting like he is someone who made that decision himself.

CA have been a notoriously idiotic board with the way they have approached the media. Sandpapergate where they thought sending Smith and Bancroft to say sorry would fix their ball-tampering scandal (lucky that ICC was delusional as usual because it's quite clear the whole team was involved).

He is the leader chosen by them at the end of the day. His selection is a separate story altogether tbh.

 

[Gilly]

Amazing to see so many people supporting the oppression of women.

 

[Zaz]

Amazing to see so many people supporting the oppression of women.

Those in glass houses shouldnt throw stones

 

[Junaids]

For those of you attacking Tim Paine:

He is the best wicketkeeper that Australia has had. Ever.

His glovework is marginally better than Ian Healy, and far ahead of Rod Marsh or Adam Gilchrist. His batting was not Gilchrist level before his injuries, but it was certainly far ahead of Pant or Buttler and probably marginally ahead of Watling.

And he is also a leader of men. It is Paine whom you see on camera in the stairwell at Durban, five Tests into his comeback, stopping De Kock and Warner from killing each other.

Tim Paine has come back into the national team from the ages of 32 to 36, as a leader who is there to rebuild a team tainted by its own cheating, which has been rejected by its own supporters due to its poor behaviour. And he has done a good job with a team in which Smith and Labuschagne are the only decent batsmen.

For the record, since his return, the 32-36 year old Paine with a rebuilt hand has the following Test batting record:

1247 runs in 31 Tests, average 32

Compare that with:

Azhar Ali: 1512 runs at 33.
Rishabh Pant: 1549 runs at 39
Jos Buttler: 2016 runs at 34
Quinton De Kock: 1691 runs at 35
BJ Watling: 1088 runs at 36

So what is left of Tim Paine as an injury-damaged veteran is the world's best glovesman combined with a batsman who is still pretty much identical in output to Buttler, De Kock and Watling even after the ravages of age and injury.

That completes the consideration of his playing merits. The other issue on display in this thread is his expression of his beliefs about Afghanistan and cricket.

It is his right as an Australian to say whatever he wants, especially about an evil government like we see in Afghanistan. Here is a bunch of what we in the west all consider to be paedophile murderers, who won precisely 0 seats out of 250 in the last Afghan elections.

If I were the captain of a country which plays sport against Afghanistan I would exercise my right to make comments about this too. But I would go much, much further - I would highlight to the public who props up the Taliban, and I would use my "bully pulpit" to expose and publicise those links.

There is a line for those of us in the west, and the Taliban exists on the wrong side of it. And anyone who supports or enables them does too.

 

[iniqbal223]

Australia captain Tim Paine says it is "hard to see" Afghanistan's men at events such as the Twenty20 World Cup if the Taliban bans the women's side.

On Thursday, Cricket Australia said it would cancel a November Test against Afghanistan if reports that women cannot play in the country are true.

The International Cricket Council said it was concerned by Taliban comments suggesting the women's side was banned.

"Does the team get kicked out of the World Cup?" Paine asked on SEN radio.

"I imagine it will be impossible if teams are pulling out of playing against them and governments are not letting them travel to our shores, then how a team like that can be allowed to play in an ICC-sanctioned event is going to be very, very hard to see."

Taliban cultural commission deputy head Ahmadullah Wasiq had previously told Australian broadcaster SBS News: "I don't think women will be allowed to play cricket."

Australia are scheduled to host their first-ever Test against Afghanistan from 26 November before the Ashes series with England, which begins on 8 December.

The men's team have already received support from the Taliban - but under ICC rules, all 12 full members must have a national women's team, with only full members able to play Test matches.

Paine said the Test, scheduled to take place in Hobart, "is not looking good".

"There's the cricket aspect to it from an ICC point of view that to be a test-playing nation, you have to have an international women's team," he said.

"Obviously with the Taliban at the moment banning women from playing any sport, that has implications at an ICC level.

"Secondly from a female, human rights point of view, excluding half of your population from trying to do something is not on.

"I don't think we want to be associated with countries that are taking things or opportunities off literally half of their population."

The ICC said in a statement on Wednesday: "The ICC has been monitoring the changing situation in Afghanistan and is concerned to note recent media reports that women will no longer be allowed to play cricket.

"This, and the impact it will have on the continued development of the game, will be discussed by the ICC board at its next meeting."

But Paine called for more from the global governing body before the Twenty20 World Cup, which starts on 17 October in the United Arab Emirates and Oman.

"At this stage, we have heard from Cricket Australia, we've heard from the Australian government, we've heard from the Australian Cricketers Association," he said.

"But as yet we've heard nothing from the ICC, which I think is fascinating given there is a T20 World Cup in a month's time and at the moment Afghanistan are in that."

The Taliban named a new government on Tuesday, three weeks after reclaiming power, but doubts remain over the regime's rules.

"So far, we don't have any news from the government," Afghanistan Cricket Board (ACB) chief executive Hamid Shinwari said in a telephone interview with SBC and Reuters.

Last week, BBC Sport reported how many of the women's team are in hiding in Kabul, saying that members of the Taliban have already come looking for them.

When the Taliban last ruled Afghanistan two decades ago, girls were not allowed to attend school and women were banned from work and education.

BBC

As if , he is planning to move to Afganistan

 

[Junaids]

Those in glass houses shouldnt throw stones

With all due respect, the equivalence that is being made in this thread baffles those of us in the west.

There is a reason why Americans are the only western people who respect their armed forces. The rest of us view armed forces as a necessary evil, but we recognise that some soldiers will always behave badly and bring disgrace upon themselves and their country. It's why we struggle to understand how the armed forces in other countries end up viewed with respect, especially in a country like Pakistan where their appalling behaviour and military incompetence lost you a huge chunk of your land and more than half of your population.

But Afghanistan is a worse problem altogether. To those of us in the west, the Taliban's morals are evil and so is their behaviour This is not the bad behaviour of a few rogue soldiers, this is literally Hell on Earth as far as we can see.

Unfortunately there is a point at which you cannot extricate and separate sport and politics. To be honest, I don't see any future for Pakistan in world cricket if the Taliban remains in power in Kabul. Everybody knows that the Taliban are propped up by Pakistan, and Pakistan's position is going to become untenable.

If you go back a quarter of a century, it's like the case of the Bosnian Serbs (under Karadzic and Mlatko) and Serbia (under Milosevic). Milosevic could claim all he liked that the atrocities were being perpetrated by the Bosnian Serbs - who were his puppets - but he still ended up dead on a slab in a prison cell at The Hague.

At the moment Pakistan remains in world cricket because their "it's not Serbia, it's the Bosnian Serbs" defence is not being challenged. Other countries have stopped touring, but otherwise Pakistan remains integrated into world cricket, in part because everyone accepts that the players are a nice bunch of lads and because Wasim Khan performed brilliant cricket diplomacy.

But I fear for Pakistan cricket, I really do.

At the moment the Pakistan authorities seem to feel like they have got away with it. Their clients are installed next door, and they seem not to care about the descent into financial ruin, or people selling their pre-pubertal children. It's annoying when people like Tim Paine make pointed comments, but you can reply with a few barbs about rogue soldiers or drone strikes and paint some sort of moral equivalence.

But is that really going to work? Two days ago every Daily Mail reader in the west was confronted as they ate their cornflakes with the story of the Afghan family who sold their 10 year old girl to a 55 year old man. To me, every such story is a nail not just in the coffin of Afghan cricket, but also of Pakistan cricket.

Ultimately, Taliban rule is a death knell for Afghan cricket. But it is also ringing a loud alarm for Pakistan cricket too.

 

[Gilly]

There seems to be a pocket of people that want to keep oppressing women and will demonize anyone that opposes them.

 

[wrongun]

Ah yes, the classic 'I have a black friend' argument. 'Things are great in the little bubble I live in, therefore they must be the same way everywhere else'

The treatment of Ahmedis in Pakistan is appalling. But atleast there are actually some Ahmedis left. Which is more than I can say about aboriginals in Australia who saw physical and cultural genocide committed against them.

And you can play semantics all you want but go read about the Stolen Generations before you talk about how well integrated aboriginals are. As if murdering aboriginals from the very start wasn't bad enough, Australia's cultural genocide of the aboriginals lasted till 1970! Wherein aboriginal children were forcibly taken from their families and given to white foster families so they could have a white upbringing.

If this isn't cultural genocide than I don't know what is. And frankly its quite shameful for you to talk about diVeRsiTy when this was going on till 1970. But hey I guess we should all sit back and smile since former Australian PM Kevin Rudd offered an apology, right?

An apology. Land rights. Additional support/pathways into university & industry. There's a genuine effort at reconciliation there.

Germs killed 90%+ of the indigenous population- lack of resistance to diseases brought with the settlers. Those who died from violence are a drop in the bucket at that.

If you'd like to declare sporting sanctions against 1960s Australia- please do.

In the current day however, CA CANNOT be seen to be ignoring the interests of 50% of their stakeholders by playing a country which violates ICC rules by not allowing womens cricket. It's literally not something the organisation can do & explain away why 50% of the people their organisation represents don't matter.

There is no actual logical link between "I am upset that Australia won't play Afghanistan" and then ignore WHY CA can/must take that position given it's position as a recipient of govt funds here. It is literally illegal in Australia for them to support discriminatory practices.

So pointing out that in the past a whole bunch of other bad things happen- isn't really relevant. It's "I don't want to talk about the real issue so here are a bunch of other things I am upset about". Basically the straw man logical fallacy.

 

[Buffet]

This stupid colonizer's prisoner has no idea what he's talking about, should we stop playing cricket with UK or Australia, or even South Africa for what they have done to the world? From Colonization, exploitation, genocide, and spreading diseases - these people have no moral high ground.

Don't blame Afghan cricket for what their country is going through!

The world did stop playing with SA. If Aus or UK do genocide right now, then the world should stop playing cricket with them.

 

[Monsee]

With all due respect, the equivalence that is being made in this thread baffles those of us in the west.

There is a reason why Americans are the only western people who respect their armed forces. The rest of us view armed forces as a necessary evil, but we recognise that some soldiers will always behave badly and bring disgrace upon themselves and their country. It's why we struggle to understand how the armed forces in other countries end up viewed with respect, especially in a country like Pakistan where their appalling behaviour and military incompetence lost you a huge chunk of your land and more than half of your population.

But Afghanistan is a worse problem altogether. To those of us in the west, the Taliban's morals are evil and so is their behaviour This is not the bad behaviour of a few rogue soldiers, this is literally Hell on Earth as far as we can see.

Unfortunately there is a point at which you cannot extricate and separate sport and politics. To be honest, I don't see any future for Pakistan in world cricket if the Taliban remains in power in Kabul. Everybody knows that the Taliban are propped up by Pakistan, and Pakistan's position is going to become untenable.

If you go back a quarter of a century, it's like the case of the Bosnian Serbs (under Karadzic and Mlatko) and Serbia (under Milosevic). Milosevic could claim all he liked that the atrocities were being perpetrated by the Bosnian Serbs - who were his puppets - but he still ended up dead on a slab in a prison cell at The Hague.

At the moment Pakistan remains in world cricket because their "it's not Serbia, it's the Bosnian Serbs" defence is not being challenged. Other countries have stopped touring, but otherwise Pakistan remains integrated into world cricket, in part because everyone accepts that the players are a nice bunch of lads and because Wasim Khan performed brilliant cricket diplomacy.

But I fear for Pakistan cricket, I really do.

At the moment the Pakistan authorities seem to feel like they have got away with it. Their clients are installed next door, and they seem not to care about the descent into financial ruin, or people selling their pre-pubertal children. It's annoying when people like Tim Paine make pointed comments, but you can reply with a few barbs about rogue soldiers or drone strikes and paint some sort of moral equivalence.

But is that really going to work? Two days ago every Daily Mail reader in the west was confronted as they ate their cornflakes with the story of the Afghan family who sold their 10 year old girl to a 55 year old man. To me, every such story is a nail not just in the coffin of Afghan cricket, but also of Pakistan cricket.

Ultimately, Taliban rule is a death knell for Afghan cricket. But it is also ringing a loud alarm for Pakistan cricket too.

What bunch of **...Afghan cricket is more closely aligned with Indian cricket and no one is laying a finger on them in the foreseeable future, no matter what happens. What does that have anything to do with Pakistan or PCB is beyond me when they (ACB/Afgan Cricketers) don't even play nice to them? How about we blame Pakistan for Bosnia, 911, and everything from start to end that is wrong in this world?

Sitting in West, the very West that helped U.S. kill/maime/destroy the last generation or two of the Afghanis in the name of Al Qaeda which was started by someone they created (Osama)...now that is some achievement that Mr. Tim Paine and rest of the West can be really proud of!

 

[Monsee]

The world did stop playing with SA. If Aus or UK do genocide right now, then the world should stop playing cricket with them.

What do you really call what U.S. and rest of the world did in Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya etc?

Does that not pretty much meet the criterias of genocide, done in the current world, all in the name of hogwash?

 

[Buffet]

What do you really call what U.S. and rest of the world did in Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya etc?

Does that not pretty much meet the criterias of genocide, done in the current world, all in the name of hogwash?

No, it does not meet the criterion. I don't support any of that, but we have many examples of genocide in the last 80-90 years even after world wars.

Genocide is the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.

 

[street cricketer]

People are ignoring a few points:

Paine said this in his radio show and not in a formal interview. It's also his own radio show he has with an AFL star and it's an informal talk show.

Paine said literally what most people in Australia or UK would think. In fact, they would get criticised very much by their public if they turned a blind eye to the Taliban and played the test with Afghanistan as scheduled.

And no, war crimes committed by their militaries or past crimes committed decades ago are a false equivalence. If you start blacklisting countries for war crimes committed by their armed forces, then you'll have no country to play cricket and certainly all the asian countries along with the western ones would get banned. The only countries which can play any form of sport then would be countries that have no formal military like Nepal or Bhutan. War crimes are not the official policy of any country unlike the Taliban's policy on women. A lot of war crimes were committed for example during the civil war in Sri Lanka but you cannot ban Sri Lanka just for that because at least on an official level, they were fighting the insurgents/militants. Same applies to Pakistan in east Pakistan, India in Kashmir, Turkey with the Kurds, and so on.

However the Taliban have officially put a blanket ban on not just participation of females in sports (which is a minor thing in the grand sheme of things), but have banned education of all girls starting from secondary level as it stands. As we speak, there are Afghans selling their daughters off for some money to buy food, children starving and women being married off to their family friends for the fear of being married to the Taliban fighters. Some Pakistanis having a soft spot for the Taliban regime stops them from seeing how problematic this is. The last time this sort of thing happened in cricket was during the Apartheid in South Africa where South Africa was banned also, not because Barry Richards and his ilk were racists but because the regime in power in South Africa during the apartheid was a racist one. Paine is not saying too different from what many of Australian public thinks on the issue here.

 

[Balthazar]

Good decision. I don't expect such values from BCCI though.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Tim Paine: I think women should be able to play sport

Some people: WHY IS HE SPEAKING NONSENSE, STICK TO CRICKET

 

[Gilly]

Tim Paine: I think women should be able to play sport

Some people: WHY IS HE SPEAKING NONSENSE, STICK TO CRICKET

There are still some people that believe that women should be enslaved to men and when someone like Paine speaks about it they attack Paine because he is talking about them.

 

[Giannis]

Okay, so will Australia also boycott football matches against Iran and Saudi Arabia or are those too important for the development of the sport in their country as it's not a main sport there sort of like how cricket has no heritage in Afghanistan?

 

[Giannis]

Aussies literally killed Afghan children, they should be the last to virtue signal

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/25/9895...etail-alleged-killings-by-australian-military

 

[Bilal7]

Aussies literally killed Afghan children, they should be the last to virtue signal

https://www.npr.org/2021/04/25/9895...etail-alleged-killings-by-australian-military

This. Not to mention their association with China, Israel and India. Just another example of the hypocrisy of the Liberal West.

The Taliban should stick to what the Afghan people want and focus on food, water, shelter and security. Let idiots like Paine, who really should be focusing on upping his mediocre cricket, say what they have to say.

America and its allies lost the war and will be licking their wounds for a while. Their concern for women's cricket fools no one, except the lowest common denominator of their respective societies.

 

[Gilly]

This. Not to mention their association with China, Israel and India. Just another example of the hypocrisy of the Liberal West.

The Taliban should stick to what the Afghan people want and focus on food, water, shelter and security. Let idiots like Paine, who really should be focusing on upping his mediocre cricket, say what they have to say.

America and its allies lost the war and will be licking their wounds for a while. Their concern for women's cricket fools no one, except the lowest common denominator of their respective societies.

And you on the other hand have no concern for womens cricket, too boring for you or is it you just can't stand women being able to play cricket, either way your views explain your position.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

For those of you attacking Tim Paine:

He is the best wicketkeeper that Australia has had. Ever.

His glovework is marginally better than Ian Healy, and far ahead of Rod Marsh or Adam Gilchrist. His batting was not Gilchrist level before his injuries, but it was certainly far ahead of Pant or Buttler and probably marginally ahead of Watling.

And he is also a leader of men. It is Paine whom you see on camera in the stairwell at Durban, five Tests into his comeback, stopping De Kock and Warner from killing each other.

Tim Paine has come back into the national team from the ages of 32 to 36, as a leader who is there to rebuild a team tainted by its own cheating, which has been rejected by its own supporters due to its poor behaviour. And he has done a good job with a team in which Smith and Labuschagne are the only decent batsmen.

For the record, since his return, the 32-36 year old Paine with a rebuilt hand has the following Test batting record:

1247 runs in 31 Tests, average 32

Compare that with:

Azhar Ali: 1512 runs at 33.
Rishabh Pant: 1549 runs at 39
Jos Buttler: 2016 runs at 34
Quinton De Kock: 1691 runs at 35
BJ Watling: 1088 runs at 36

So what is left of Tim Paine as an injury-damaged veteran is the world's best glovesman combined with a batsman who is still pretty much identical in output to Buttler, De Kock and Watling even after the ravages of age and injury.

That completes the consideration of his playing merits. The other issue on display in this thread is his expression of his beliefs about Afghanistan and cricket.

It is his right as an Australian to say whatever he wants, especially about an evil government like we see in Afghanistan. Here is a bunch of what we in the west all consider to be paedophile murderers, who won precisely 0 seats out of 250 in the last Afghan elections.

If I were the captain of a country which plays sport against Afghanistan I would exercise my right to make comments about this too. But I would go much, much further - I would highlight to the public who props up the Taliban, and I would use my "bully pulpit" to expose and publicise those links.

There is a line for those of us in the west, and the Taliban exists on the wrong side of it. And anyone who supports or enables them does too.

Lol at the best wicketkeeper

What's the point of posting random stats that have no rationale. Azhar Ali is a top order batter. Others are wicketkeepers. And how does an average of 39 compare with 32? You've just randomly dug out stats and tried to prove something that only exists in your mind. Yasir Shah has more test centuries than Tim Paine has in Tests and Yasir isn't even a batter. Azhar Ali has more test centuries than Tim Paine has in his entire domestic and international career.

No sane mind can compare the batting pedigree of others with Paine. Plus all of them are at different stages of their career. Pant has just started. QdK hasn't probably hit his prime yet. Watling has retired.

Plus to read about you bragging about western values and how they are so cleansed. Get a life. I am no Taliban sympathizer, but alleging others of pedophilia without even stepping a foot in the country is irresponsible and blind. West isn't something sacred, there are vile creatures there as well. Wasn't UK castrating homosexuals after 1952 act? West has committed more war crimes than you can imagine.

 

[Zaz]

Lol at the best wicketkeeper

What's the point of posting random stats that have no rationale. Azhar Ali is a top order batter. Others are wicketkeepers. And how does an average of 39 compare with 32? You've just randomly dug out stats and tried to prove something that only exists in your mind. Yasir Shah has more test centuries than Tim Paine has in Tests and Yasir isn't even a batter. Azhar Ali has more test centuries than Tim Paine has in his entire domestic and international career.

No sane mind can compare the batting pedigree of others with Paine. Plus all of them are at different stages of their career. Pant has just started. QdK hasn't probably hit his prime yet. Watling has retired.

Plus to read about you bragging about western values and how they are so cleansed. Get a life. I am no Taliban sympathizer, but alleging others of pedophilia without even stepping a foot in the country is irresponsible and blind. West isn't something sacred, there are vile creatures there as well. Wasn't UK castrating homosexuals after 1952 act? West has committed more war crimes than you can imagine.

Exactly this selective punishment is hilarious when the west keeps healthy relations with other dictatorial regimes

Nothing is said when trade and sport is played with the likes of saudi, nothing is said when t20 world cup is played in uae or the football world cup is held in qatar

What rights do women in these countries have?

The double standards is staggering

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Exactly this selective punishment is hilarious when the west keeps healthy relations with other dictatorial regimes

Nothing is said when trade and sport is played with the likes of saudi, nothing is said when t20 world cup is played in uae or the football world cup is held in qatar

What rights do women in these countries have?

The double standards is staggering

The Saudi part is just hilarious. Here is a regime that is essentially a richer version of the Taliban. But you won't hear Australia, US or any of the Western countries say a single thing about the fact the plight of women in Saudi Arabia, who are essentially second class citizens.

 

[street cricketer]

The Saudi part is just hilarious. Here is a regime that is essentially a richer version of the Taliban. But you won't hear Australia, US or any of the Western countries say a single thing about the fact the plight of women in Saudi Arabia, who are essentially second class citizens.

The female literacy rate of Saudi Arabia is 92%.

In Afghanistan, it is 29% and the Taliban have banned education of all girls past the primary level in the country since they have come to power.

I'm not even going to the sports part, which I think is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things and more of an ICC legality. Saudi Arabia is no heaven for female rights, but it's still much better compared to Afghanistan.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

The female literacy rate of Saudi Arabia is 92%.

In Afghanistan, it is 29% and the Taliban have banned education of all girls past the primary level in the country since they have come to power.

I'm not even going to the sports part, which I think is a minor issue in the grand scheme of things and more of an ICC legality. Saudi Arabia is no heaven for female rights, but it's still much better compared to Afghanistan.

Don't get me wrong. The Taliban are very bit as barbaric, backward and extremist as everyone claims they are. But surely there is a massive hypocrisy behind the West acting morally superior and criticizing them in one breath, and supporting regimes throughout history that have been even worse to all their citizens (not just women) in the other.

As for Saudi Arabia, while the literacy rate of their female population may be high, the country ranks shockingly poorly in the Gender Wage Gap Index at 146 out 156 countries. While women in many of the poorly ranking, developing countries struggle in access to education, this is clearly not the case in Saudi Arabia. Which means despite being educated, women are being kept at home and not being given enough chances to become productive members of society. And we are all well-aware of the other restrictions they are subject to. So again, I don't see how the Saudi regime is not a richer and more enlightened version of the Taliban.

What the Taliban are doing is absolutely wrong and needs to stop. But getting the Taliban to do something does not fall within Cricket Australia's purview, but within the ICC's, as you rightly pointed out. At the same time Australia acting morally superior is an utterly sanctimonious thing for it to do simply because Australia is not the beacon of human rights that it claims to be. What's more, it is Australia and its Western allies that are primarily responsible for the mess Afghanistan is in today.

So for them to try and threaten the ACB like this is quite low. The people of Afghanistan have few things that bring them joy, and serve as a source of hope for the future. And cricket is one of them.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

For those of you attacking Tim Paine:

He is the best wicketkeeper that Australia has had. Ever.

His glovework is marginally better than Ian Healy, and far ahead of Rod Marsh or Adam Gilchrist. His batting was not Gilchrist level before his injuries, but it was certainly far ahead of Pant or Buttler and probably marginally ahead of Watling.

And he is also a leader of men. It is Paine whom you see on camera in the stairwell at Durban, five Tests into his comeback, stopping De Kock and Warner from killing each other.

Tim Paine has come back into the national team from the ages of 32 to 36, as a leader who is there to rebuild a team tainted by its own cheating, which has been rejected by its own supporters due to its poor behaviour. And he has done a good job with a team in which Smith and Labuschagne are the only decent batsmen.

For the record, since his return, the 32-36 year old Paine with a rebuilt hand has the following Test batting record:

1247 runs in 31 Tests, average 32

Compare that with:

Azhar Ali: 1512 runs at 33.
Rishabh Pant: 1549 runs at 39
Jos Buttler: 2016 runs at 34
Quinton De Kock: 1691 runs at 35
BJ Watling: 1088 runs at 36

So what is left of Tim Paine as an injury-damaged veteran is the world's best glovesman combined with a batsman who is still pretty much identical in output to Buttler, De Kock and Watling even after the ravages of age and injury.

That completes the consideration of his playing merits. The other issue on display in this thread is his expression of his beliefs about Afghanistan and cricket.

It is his right as an Australian to say whatever he wants, especially about an evil government like we see in Afghanistan. Here is a bunch of what we in the west all consider to be paedophile murderers, who won precisely 0 seats out of 250 in the last Afghan elections.

If I were the captain of a country which plays sport against Afghanistan I would exercise my right to make comments about this too. But I would go much, much further - I would highlight to the public who props up the Taliban, and I would use my "bully pulpit" to expose and publicise those links.

There is a line for those of us in the west, and the Taliban exists on the wrong side of it. And anyone who supports or enables them does too.

Forget everything, Paine is the best wicketkeeper that Australia has ever had? Seriously?

Paine can't take sitters off Nathan Lyon's bowling and dropped a number of key catches during the India series, and you are comparing him to Healy, Gilly, Marsh?

What makes you think that Paine could even keep to Warne the way Healy (and to a lesser extent Gilly) did? What makes you think he could keep to Thompson and Lillie the way Marsh did? Paine is not even as competent as Haddin. Which perhaps explains why he struggled to get a single game in the side when Haddin was wicket-keeper.

Supporting a player's political/ideological views is one thing, but please don't go around insulting our intelligence.

I reckon if you asked a hardcore Australian cricket fan to come up with a top 10 list of the best ever Australian wicketkeepers, Paine wouldn't even be in the Top 10.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

When Gilly dropped a sitter against India, he retired. When Paine dropped 3 sitters in a day against India, he shamelessly went on with his sledging and saw his side get humiliated by India on their home turf.

Say what you will about his ideological views, but talking about Paine as a supposedly brilliant wicketkeeper is something that simply does not have any basis in reality.

He is little more than a temporary captain, who will soon be replaced by Smith. And won't be long after that, that he replaced by Alex Carey as Australia's primary gloveman.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Their hypocrisy is pathetic

 

[realitygaf]

Paine can talk about whatever he wants, if he wants to highlight how women are being oppressed then that is his right.

Yes , correct . similarly afghanis have the right to call out Australian way of dealing with natives and the open racism towards non whites and how asylum seekers are put in cages

 

[OmarKhan99]

The Saudi part is just hilarious. Here is a regime that is essentially a richer version of the Taliban. But you won't hear Australia, US or any of the Western countries say a single thing about the fact the plight of women in Saudi Arabia, who are essentially second class citizens.

I agree with most of the points (Aus being hypocritical, etc.), however, I don't think Saudi Arabia is a good example.

As someone who has spent considerable amount of time in Saudi Arabia, the statement that women are second class citizens is inaccurate misnomer/extrapolation.

I've travelled heaps around the globe and have spent quite some time in Australia in the recent past, and in my experience, women are much safer and are treated with much greater respect in Saudi Arabia. I say that with quite a bit of my family still living there. It's often difficult for those who haven't lived in KSA to fathom how that would be, but that is indeed the ground reality.

Many may disagree with the methodology, but they can't with the results.

 

[street cricketer]

Don't get me wrong. The Taliban are very bit as barbaric, backward and extremist as everyone claims they are. But surely there is a massive hypocrisy behind the West acting morally superior and criticizing them in one breath, and supporting regimes throughout history that have been even worse to all their citizens (not just women) in the other.

As for Saudi Arabia, while the literacy rate of their female population may be high, the country ranks shockingly poorly in the Gender Wage Gap Index at 146 out 156 countries. While women in many of the poorly ranking, developing countries struggle in access to education, this is clearly not the case in Saudi Arabia. Which means despite being educated, women are being kept at home and not being given enough chances to become productive members of society. And we are all well-aware of the other restrictions they are subject to. So again, I don't see how the Saudi regime is not a richer and more enlightened version of the Taliban.

What the Taliban are doing is absolutely wrong and needs to stop. But getting the Taliban to do something does not fall within Cricket Australia's purview, but within the ICC's, as you rightly pointed out. At the same time Australia acting morally superior is an utterly sanctimonious thing for it to do simply because Australia is not the beacon of human rights that it claims to be. What's more, it is Australia and its Western allies that are primarily responsible for the mess Afghanistan is in today.

So for them to try and threaten the ACB like this is quite low. The people of Afghanistan have few things that bring them joy, and serve as a source of hope for the future. And cricket is one of them.

There is a difference between societal discrimination and legal discrimination. For example, you can find societal discrimination against muslims in some areas in India but there is no legal discrimination. If India tomorrow passes a law that muslims cannot own home or get educated or muslim players cannot get into the Indian team, then all countries would be fully within their rights to boycott India even before the ICC does. If we apply the woke standards, not just Australia but none of our countries including yours and mine would be able to play cricket.

You talk about the big gender gap in Saudi Arabia, but Pakistan ranks even higher at gender gap at 153rd rank, just 3 places higher than the last ranked Afghanistan. But no one asks Pakistan to be boycotted because the gender gap in Pakistan is due to the cultural norms and patriarchy and not due to any specific laws passed against women. It's not the same case in Afghanistan. Apart from the pre existing conservative cultural norms and patriarchy, on top of it, the Taliban have passed laws to worsen the already poor state of women in their country. It ranks the highest in terms of gender gap among all the countries in the world and the Taliban have actively passed laws to worsen the situation further.

Let's leave all the politics aside, in your opinion, was the official boycott of apartheid South Africa in the past warranted or not?

What would you say if apartheid South Africa used the same arguments that are used here like "countries like Australia and England should be the last countries to lecture on human rights given their chequered past with human rights". Would the apartheid South Africa be within its rights to deflect any criticism directed at it because of other flaws in other countries in the past or present?

 

[OmarKhan99]

There is a difference between societal discrimination and legal discrimination. For example, you can find societal discrimination against muslims in some areas in India but there is no legal discrimination. If India tomorrow passes a law that muslims cannot own home or get educated or muslim players cannot get into the Indian team, then all countries would be fully within their rights to boycott India even before the ICC does. If we apply the woke standards, not just Australia but none of our countries including yours and mine would be able to play cricket.

You talk about the big gender gap in Saudi Arabia, but Pakistan ranks even higher at gender gap at 153rd rank, just 3 places higher than the last ranked Afghanistan. But no one asks Pakistan to be boycotted because the gender gap in Pakistan is due to the cultural norms and patriarchy and not due to any specific laws passed against women. It's not the same case in Afghanistan. Apart from the pre existing conservative cultural norms and patriarchy, on top of it, the Taliban have passed laws to worsen the already poor state of women in their country. It ranks the highest in terms of gender gap among all the countries in the world and the Taliban have actively passed laws to worsen the situation further.

Most of your points have already been addressed in the "The Future of Afghanistan Cricket" thread. There's a need for a nuanced approach to how the rest of the world can "nudge" and postively incentivise AFG towards the right direction rather trying to superimpose values forcefully. If there's anything the world needs to have learned in the last 40 years, it's that you can't forcing your values on AFG (or any self-respecting country, for that matter) is infeasible, impractical, and has historically failed numerous times. So that's not a wise option.

Instead of reiterating some of the points, I'll quote some of the previous ones, to address your points.

I am no Taliban sympathizer, but I am cognizant of the ground realities. Yes, you're right that there have been distressing images emerging from Afghanistan's capital, but there are equally (or even more) videos of people celebrating the inevitable Taliban take over. You have to realize that Taliban aren't some foreign power that are taking over (like the US+NATO were perceived), they are an indigenous movement with actual ground support. Whether we agree with it or disagree. It'd be extremely foolish of us to forcefully superimpose our values onto any other nation's, as that has always historically back fired. Meaningful change always happens from within. We'd be better off trusting the people of Afghanistan to change and set things right if Taliban seem to be taking them in the wrong direction. Forcing them or backing them against a wall by isolating/alienating them will only allow extremist elements to breed hatred of the 'other' and decent people will also be swayed towards ignorance. Have to trust the Afghan people.

I know what you mean, but if the NATO countries are genuinely concerned with Taliban strengthening their grip on Afghanistan, then they won't go down that route. Isolating Afghanistan because of the Taliban takeover, and making it out to be a pariah/rogue state, will further bolster Taliban and only do the exact opposite of what AUS, ENG, etc. would have wanted. They can try that approach, but it just won't work (e.g. NK, Iran, etc.). It's fine to strive for a idealistic world, but you also have to make nuanced decisions based on the ground realities.

Having said that, I'm not really concerned with what ENG etc. do, it's much more pertinent to see what the neighbours do in their assistance. It's their responsibility to help Afghanistan during these times.

Let's leave all the politics aside, in your opinion, was the official boycott of apartheid South Africa in the past warranted or not?

For the South Africa bit -

What would you say if apartheid South Africa used the same arguments that are used here like "countries like Australia and England should be the last countries to lecture on human rights given their chequered past with human rights". Would the apartheid South Africa be within its rights to deflect any criticism directed at it because of other flaws in other countries in the past or present?

Well, you aren't wrong, but there's more context to this. It was mainly India, Pakistan and West Indies that were adamant behind the initial International isolation of South African Cricket, considering the ridiculous laws barring non-white players entry into the team. It was again India, Pakistan and Windies that were against a readmission. While, on the other hand, you had teams like ENG, AUS organizing rebel tours throughout the 80s for very thinly-veiled money-grubbing intentions. So ENG and AUS have always been very selectively "woke". Ask yourself this, if Afghanistan was cash cow, wouldn't AUS change its stance?

However, I do understand what you mean by isolation might lead the host into rethinking their options. I personally don't think that will happen in Afghanistan's case though. South Africa is a particularly uncommon case where a minority ruled over the majority with impunity. There were massive calls from within the country (i.e. SA) for other countries to boycott their own cricket team and CSA. I don't think that translates to the current situation in Afghanistan. If we know this approach will not work, it means that simplistic blanket isolation is not worth exploring and there has to be a more thoroughly thought-through strategy.

In conclusion, a lot of the debate revolves around conjecture and hypotheticals. Being haste in judgement is not wise. The world must be patient and observe how Afghanistan handles itself under Taliban rule for next few months (at least) before assessing their relationship with the country and burning birdges. The statements have been quite reassuring from the spokesmen and Taliban leadership have been known to honour their words for the most part (offered immunity to US allies, Airport parameter security, etc.). Something even the US army personnel have attested to.

 

[street cricketer]

Most of your points have already been addressed in the "The Future of Afghanistan Cricket" thread. There's a need for a nuanced approach to how the rest of the world can "nudge" and postively incentivise AFG towards the right direction rather trying to superimpose values forcefully. If there's anything the world needs to have learned in the last 40 years, it's that you can't forcing your values on AFG (or any self-respecting country, for that matter) is infeasible, impractical, and has historically failed numerous times. So that's not a wise option.

Instead of reiterating some of the points, I'll quote some of the previous ones, to address your points.

Well, you aren't wrong, but there's more context to this. It was mainly India, Pakistan and West Indies that were adamant behind the initial International isolation of South African Cricket, considering the ridiculous laws barring non-white players entry into the team. It was again India, Pakistan and Windies that were against a readmission. While, on the other hand, you had teams like ENG, AUS organizing rebel tours throughout the 80s for very thinly-veiled money-grubbing intentions. So ENG and AUS have always been very selectively "woke". Ask yourself this, if Afghanistan was cash cow, wouldn't AUS change its stance?

However, I do understand what you mean by isolation might lead the host into rethinking their options. I personally don't think that will happen in Afghanistan's case though. South Africa is a particularly uncommon case where a minority ruled over the majority with impunity. There were massive calls from within the country (i.e. SA) for other countries to boycott their own cricket team and CSA. I don't think that translates to the current situation in Afghanistan. If we know this approach will not work, it means that simplistic blanket isolation is not worth exploring and there has to be a more thoroughly thought-through strategy.

In conclusion, a lot of the debate revolves around conjecture and hypotheticals. Being haste in judgement is not wise. The world must be patient and observe how Afghanistan handles itself under Taliban rule for next few months (at least) before assessing their relationship with the country and burning birdges. The statements have been quite reassuring from the spokesmen and Taliban leadership have been known to honour their words for the most part (offered immunity to US allies, Airport parameter security, etc.). Something even the US army personnel have attested to.

At what point though we move on from "It's their country, it's their culture, it's very different but we probably shouldn't interfere" to taking steps when they indulge in gross human rights violations.

Iran for example makes it mandatory for all females in their country to wear the hijab, and while this isn't an ideal law, it's still not a massive human rights violation. However the right to education is one of the fundamental human rights and banning all girls the right to get educated amounts to a massive human rights violation and while I fully understand we should allow the Taliban the time to mend their ways, the Taliban has shown no indication that they have changed from their version of two decades ago, despite them insisting they have changed. Only the US soldiers were given the immunity but you keep reading news of dead bodies found on the streets of ex Afghan soldiers or those who worked with the allies despite the Taliban saying they have provided amnesty. And the Taliban have banned the education for all girls past the primary level when there's absolutely no need to do so unless one truly believes women are not equal to men as human beings and they don't deserve the right to education.

Again, we certainly can't force our "values" on the Taliban (which is nothing but the universal values for human rights), but it's also certainly Australia's right to choose whether to play bilateral cricket with a country under such a regime or not. Because countries would be seen as "whitewashing" the Taliban if they continue to ignore the human rights part and while happily continue engaging with the Taliban. I understand your point of giving the Taliban more time to mend, but at the same time, what's the time frame after which we take action. What's the guarantee that the Taliban will mend if we give leeway to them, you are only forced to change your actions when you are put under pressure and face the repercussions of your actions. If people are like "yeah we know you're doing wrong but we'll ignore that part and give you leeway and hope you change afterwards", chances are that you'll never mend your ways and continue with the status quo.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

There is a difference between societal discrimination and legal discrimination. For example, you can find societal discrimination against muslims in some areas in India but there is no legal discrimination. If India tomorrow passes a law that muslims cannot own home or get educated or muslim players cannot get into the Indian team, then all countries would be fully within their rights to boycott India even before the ICC does. If we apply the woke standards, not just Australia but none of our countries including yours and mine would be able to play cricket.

You talk about the big gender gap in Saudi Arabia, but Pakistan ranks even higher at gender gap at 153rd rank, just 3 places higher than the last ranked Afghanistan. But no one asks Pakistan to be boycotted because the gender gap in Pakistan is due to the cultural norms and patriarchy and not due to any specific laws passed against women. It's not the same case in Afghanistan. Apart from the pre existing conservative cultural norms and patriarchy, on top of it, the Taliban have passed laws to worsen the already poor state of women in their country. It ranks the highest in terms of gender gap among all the countries in the world and the Taliban have actively passed laws to worsen the situation further.

Let's leave all the politics aside, in your opinion, was the official boycott of apartheid South Africa in the past warranted or not?

What would you say if apartheid South Africa used the same arguments that are used here like "countries like Australia and England should be the last countries to lecture on human rights given their chequered past with human rights". Would the apartheid South Africa be within its rights to deflect any criticism directed at it because of other flaws in other countries in the past or present?

Except India does have laws that discriminate against Muslims. Just as Pakistan has laws that discriminate against Ahmedis and other minorities. This is not about that. The plight of women's cricket in Afghanistan absolutely needs to be highlighted and ICC absolutely needs to take Afghanistan to task for it. But it is not Australia's place to do so. Australia and CA statements feel alot more like posturing than anything else and I think its quite logical to doubt their intentions because what have they done to get the Afghan women cricketer's side of this story? Once again it seems like a case of men fighting over an issue that quite clearly impacts women. We all know the Taliban are who they are, but what has Australian cricket done to back-up the lofty ideals it projects? Because anyone can posture. Actually doing something is what matters.

True and the state of women's rights in Pakistan is not something to boast about. But keep in mind that Pakistan also has a female literacy rate of about 47% (one of the lowest in the region), not a literacy rate of 92%.

I also don't think it at all makes sense to compare Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan or Afghanistan to South Africa under Apartheid, which was one of the worst examples of state-sanctioned racism and discrimination in human history.

As far as taking Afghanistan to task for their treatment of women and minorities is concerned, there are sufficient international forums and tools (sanctions, blocking future aid etc.) already in place to place to make them moderate their actions. But making statements like these, with nothing resembling a solution is posturing. And for that people are absolutely right to scoff at Australia.

 

[Zaz]

This again sets a dangerous precedent where boards can pull out of tours and use whatever excuse they like to justify the fact they dont want to play a team

Any policy rule should be coming from the ICC not individual boards

 

[street cricketer]

Except India does have laws that discriminate against Muslims. Just as Pakistan has laws that discriminate against Ahmedis and other minorities. This is not about that.

Forgot about the CAA & NRC act, my bad.

The plight of women's cricket in Afghanistan absolutely needs to be highlighted and ICC absolutely needs to take Afghanistan to task for it. But it is not Australia's place to do so. Australia and CA statements feel alot more like posturing than anything else and I think its quite logical to doubt their intentions because what have they done to get the Afghan women cricketer's side of this story? Once again it seems like a case of men fighting over an issue that quite clearly impacts women. We all know the Taliban are who they are, but what has Australian cricket done to back-up the lofty ideals it projects? Because anyone can posture. Actually doing something is what matters.

There has never been an official Afghan women's cricket team even before the Taliban took over, but the ICC was choosing to look the other way given the progress their men's team was showing at the international level. But with the Taliban coming to power and them saying outrightly that they would not allow women to engage in sports activities, the ICC would be forced to not look the other way anymore as it would violate one of the important ICC rules for test playing nations.

But I'm not even talking about the right of women to play cricket here. That's much higher in the scale of women's rights. I'm talking about the right of women to get educated, which is one of of the fundamental rights of any human being regardless of their race or sex, in any part of the world and while the Taliban continue to be forthright in denying the right to education for one half of their population, Australia is well within its rights to not engage in bilateral games with Afghanistan under the Taliban regime. Otherwise you only whitewash their actions.

As for Australia just posturing and not doing anything substantial, Australia evacuated the Afghanistan's women's football team just a few weeks ago as the Taliban took control over the country. I do think CA should have evacuated the women's cricket team too, but unfortunately it exists only on paper and doesn't exist in reality.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...stralia-their-unsure-situation-and-the-future

True and the state of women's rights in Pakistan is not something to boast about. But keep in mind that Pakistan also has a female literacy rate of about 47% (one of the lowest in the region), not a literacy rate of 92%.

I also don't think it at all makes sense to compare Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan or Afghanistan to South Africa under Apartheid, which was one of the worst examples of state-sanctioned racism and discrimination in human history.

As far as taking Afghanistan to task for their treatment of women and minorities is concerned, there are sufficient international forums and tools (sanctions, blocking future aid etc.) already in place to place to make them moderate their actions. But making statements like these, with nothing resembling a solution is posturing. And for that people are absolutely right to scoff at Australia.

What's the difference in discriminating against race and sex? How is one more worse or less worse than the other. As I see it, both are reprehensible acts and should be condemned by one and all.

Again, people are forgetting that these comments were made in an informal radio show that Paine hosts with an AFL star. They usually discuss about Ashes banter in the show along with the AFL news and so this wasn't out of line really. Yes, it's the job of the ICC but given the massive change that took place in the political spectrum in Afghanistan, the bilateral series that Australia had scheduled with Afghanistan was always going to be in jeopardy. The ball is in ICC's court now and to be completely honest, I'm sympathetic to the Afghan players and believe they shouldn't be punished for the actions of the Taliban. But I'm not sure what ICC can do given having a women's cricket team is one of the rules for a test membership and if the ICC continues to look the other way, it will get panned the same way FIFA gets panned for giving the world cup hosting rights to Qatar.

 

[OmarKhan99]

At what point though we move on from "It's their country, it's their culture, it's very different but we probably shouldn't interfere" to taking steps when they indulge in gross human rights violations.

The implication of "gross human rights violations" being ubiquitous in Afghanistan is an incorrect one. But yes, that does apply to occupying powers like Israel and in places like China's Xinjiang province, etc.

Iran for example makes it mandatory for all females in their country to wear the hijab, and while this isn't an ideal law, it's still not a massive human rights violation.

I can see where you're coming from, but this has basis in Islamic Law. The application of the law might be done incorrectly, but the law itself has a basis. And no, if you understand the premise behind it, it's not a human rights violation at all. That is probably a discussion for another day.

However the right to education is one of the fundamental human rights and banning all girls the right to get educated amounts to a massive human rights violation and while I fully understand we should allow the Taliban the time to mend their ways, the Taliban has shown no indication that they have changed from their version of two decades ago, despite them insisting they have changed. Only the US soldiers were given the immunity but you keep reading news of dead bodies found on the streets of ex Afghan soldiers or those who worked with the allies despite the Taliban saying they have provided amnesty. And the Taliban have banned the education for all girls past the primary level when there's absolutely no need to do so unless one truly believes women are not equal to men as human beings and they don't deserve the right to education.

What are your sources?

This is a prime example of what I am talking about. Many around the world, like Tim Paine, have seemed to have formed arguments/opinions on Afghanistan on the basis of pretexts and half-truths. I don't like speaking on behalf of someone, but I don't like misrepresentation either. So I'll clarify this.

Currently, in Afghanistan, they are building and arranging segregated schools and spaces in University Campuses, that will exclusively be for girls and the others for boys. This is a norm in many countries (all schools are like this in KSA and in many other gulf countries). Until that arrangement is done, they have asked girls over a certain age to not travel to school until that safe space is established. They have been asked to homeschool to continue their education in the interim period.

For further context into this, just watch the Interview of Taliban Spokesperson (Abdul Qahar) on Al Jazeera (dated: 9th October 2021). Here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Eu-r2XdtVU&ab_channel=AlJazeeraEnglish

I think we all know, but for completeness' sake, going against girls' education (no matter what age) would be completely against Islamic principles.

Also, what are your sources on bolded bit?

Again, we certainly can't force our "values" on the Taliban (which is nothing but the universal values for human rights), but it's also certainly Australia's right to choose whether to play bilateral cricket with a country under such a regime or not. Because countries would be seen as "whitewashing" the Taliban if they continue to ignore the human rights part and while happily continue engaging with the Taliban.

First of all, I think we all know that is not what Tim Paine implied. Tim Paine was implying a global boycott and isolation of Afghanistan Cricket. When you are in the sort of position he is in, your words carry weight. That is why not being over-simplistic in your analysis is imperative.

Second, you need to remember, that the actions the rest of the world takes should be done so in manner so that they benefit the Afghanistan people. If it's known global isolation will only further instigate the plight of the Afghan people, then why go down that simplistic route?

Instead, should listen to what the Afghan people are saying. For context, check out Tuba Sangar's (Former Head of Women's development in Afghanistan Cricket) interview with BBC Stumped (dated: 18 Spet 2021). She believes a boycott from major test-playing countries would have the opposite effect of what was intended and would be actually be counterproductive for the Afghan women. Here's a link: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct1lbz

I understand your point of giving the Taliban more time to mend, but at the same time, what's the time frame after which we take action. What's the guarantee that the Taliban will mend if we give leeway to them, you are only forced to change your actions when you are put under pressure and face the repercussions of your actions. If people are like "yeah we know you're doing wrong but we'll ignore that part and give you leeway and hope you change afterwards", chances are that you'll never mend your ways and continue with the status quo.

Yes, these are the exact questions that need to be discussed.

The Taliban will find it difficult to govern Afghanistan unilaterally, because of the major ethnic differences. At some point, they will be forming a coalition government that will look to unite the different ethnicities in the region, and that's when Afghanistan will be stable enough to make sane decisions.

At the moment, the hasty retrieval of US and the brain drain of top politicians/bureaucrats fleeing the country has led to an impending economic and humanitarian crisis in Afghanistan. That crisis needs to be dealt with on a priority before the Taliban will look to a coalition government.

I think in about 6 months - 12 months, the Taliban will have had sufficient time to figure out the logistics, and any decisions they make after those months and time period has passed are the ones, the rest of the World needs to observe to accurately assess the direction they are going in.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Forgot about the CAA & NRC act, my bad.



There has never been an official Afghan women's cricket team even before the Taliban took over, but the ICC was choosing to look the other way given the progress their men's team was showing at the international level. But with the Taliban coming to power and them saying outrightly that they would not allow women to engage in sports activities, the ICC would be forced to not look the other way anymore as it would violate one of the important ICC rules for test playing nations.

But I'm not even talking about the right of women to play cricket here. That's much higher in the scale of women's rights. I'm talking about the right of women to get educated, which is one of of the fundamental rights of any human being regardless of their race or sex, in any part of the world and while the Taliban continue to be forthright in denying the right to education for one half of their population, Australia is well within its rights to not engage in bilateral games with Afghanistan under the Taliban regime. Otherwise you only whitewash their actions.

As for Australia just posturing and not doing anything substantial, Australia evacuated the Afghanistan's women's football team just a few weeks ago as the Taliban took control over the country. I do think CA should have evacuated the women's cricket team too, but unfortunately it exists only on paper and doesn't exist in reality.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...stralia-their-unsure-situation-and-the-future




What's the difference in discriminating against race and sex? How is one more worse or less worse than the other. As I see it, both are reprehensible acts and should be condemned by one and all.

Again, people are forgetting that these comments were made in an informal radio show that Paine hosts with an AFL star. They usually discuss about Ashes banter in the show along with the AFL news and so this wasn't out of line really. Yes, it's the job of the ICC but given the massive change that took place in the political spectrum in Afghanistan, the bilateral series that Australia had scheduled with Afghanistan was always going to be in jeopardy. The ball is in ICC's court now and to be completely honest, I'm sympathetic to the Afghan players and believe they shouldn't be punished for the actions of the Taliban. But I'm not sure what ICC can do given having a women's cricket team is one of the rules for a test membership and if the ICC continues to look the other way, it will get panned the same way FIFA gets panned for giving the world cup hosting rights to Qatar.

I don't know man I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I see your argument and I get where you are coming from, but I can't say I agree. I question Australia's intentions because if they really were interested in doing something for Afghan women they would have tried to engage women cricketers in the country. But they did nothing beyond giving empty statements.

And I don't believe you are correct in saying that there has never been an Afghan women's cricket team. They may not have played much cricket but there was most definitely an Afghan women's cricket team until a few years ago.

My issue with you comparing apartheid to current events in Afghanistan or any other country besides Palestine is that, such a comparison diminishes the severity of apartheid. Its simply a false equivalency in my opinion because that was decades of subjugation and institutionalized racism directed against 76% of South Africa's population, which included men and women. There are few examples even comparable to apartheid from the modern age. That's not to say that women in Afghanistan don't have it incredibly bad either. But there is a very clear difference between that and apartheid, which is why the comparison seems illogical to me.

 

[Giannis]

Oh how the turn tables

 

[Kohli The King of Chase]

Afg captain should say “Don’t want to be associated with countries whose captain takes opportunities to cheat the gender of half of their population”


Disgusting moral less human being and a part time captain, but the audacity

 

[Giannis]

Afg captain should say “Don’t want to be associated with countries whose captain takes opportunities to cheat the gender of half of their population”


Disgusting moral less human being and a part time captain, but the audacity

Not even cheat, to send unsolicited explicit images to women aka sexual harassment.

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Pathetic statement in the first place.

Don't interfere in others culture. Simple.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

A nasty degenerate who literally sexually harassed women and texted unsolicited pics of his penis...I wonder if this scumbug would be sent to jail? It will be ironic to see CA make comments about Taliban again lol

 

[reversehook]

afghn dont give opportunities, aussies offer hard opportunities... no puns intended...