First female Imam leading Friday prayer in India faces ‘death threat’

[Traveller55]

I didn't say hadith is unchanged. There's a difference

Then it is not 'just like the Koran' and till the end of time.

 

[Traveller55]

There aren't many Quran only Muslims in the west at all. I only visit Bengali restaurants.

The number of Koran-only muslims in North America is rising pretty fast. They have a far bigger share of the younger generation than you'd like to think.

 

[Abdullah719]

There is no evidence to suggest that it was applicable after the messenger is dead. As you said, the Koran said to obey the messenger. Not 'obey what is written about the messengers life after he is dead'.

If your mother says 'obey your father' - it means obey your father, till he is dead. Not 'after your father is dead, open his diary and obey its instructions'.

That much, is common sense and implied.

Not really. A prophet or a messenger is not like one's parents.

The Qur'an is meant to be applicable forever. If the instruction to obey the messenger was temporary, it only makes sense for there to be some evidence in favour of that.

 

[Traveller55]

Not really. A prophet or a messenger is not like one's parents.

yes, but he was still human. And if the directive is 'follow the prophet', who is a human, its implied, without any qualifiers, to follow his living example. Not whats written about him. That, is an assumption/extrapolation of the directive.

The Qur'an is meant to be applicable forever. If the instruction to obey the messenger was temporary, it only makes sense for there to be some evidence in favour of that.

The evidence is in the wording itself. It says to obey the messenger. you can't obey someone once they are dead.
That is the default usage of the word 'obey'.
In fact, i can easily say that if the Koran meant for the stories about Mohammed to be obeyed in perpetuity, then it'd have mentioned obeying the messenger's biography as well, not just the first person singular term of 'obey the messenger(person)'.

 

[ataullah]

All this doesn't matter as apparently all of the Muslims until the last couple of centuries were misguided and Quranists are the only ones who have the right idea of Islam.

I wonder how they read salat, perform haj etc☺ and what is the meaning of
ما اتاکم الرسول وما نھاکم عنہ فا انتھوا
"Whatever rasoolullah gives u take it and whatever he prevents u from refrain from it"

And اطیعو اللہ و اطیعو الرسول
" obey Allah and obey rasoolullah"

 

[Traveller55]

I wonder how they read salat, perform haj etc☺ and what is the meaning of
ما اتاکم الرسول وما نھاکم عنہ فا انتھوا
"Whatever rasoolullah gives u take it and whatever he prevents u from refrain from it"

And اطیعو اللہ و اطیعو الرسول
" obey Allah and obey rasoolullah"

It simply means that IF we were alive during Mohammed's time to obey him. he is now dead. So nothing to obey. Can't obey dead people.

If Koran, which you consider is the perfect book, meant for us to obey the life-story of Rasulallah, then it'd have mentioned it as such. instead, it used a first person singular verb 'obey the person (prophet)'.


The implication is pretty obvious.

 

[ataullah]

yes, but he was still human. And if the directive is 'follow the prophet', who is a human, its implied, without any qualifiers, to follow his living example. Not whats written about him. That, is an assumption/extrapolation of the directive.



The evidence is in the wording itself. It says to obey the messenger. you can't obey someone once they are dead.
That is the default usage of the word 'obey'.
In fact, i can easily say that if the Koran meant for the stories about Mohammed to be obeyed in perpetuity, then it'd have mentioned obeying the messenger's biography as well, not just the first person singular term of 'obey the messenger(person)'.

Qur'an says martyrs are alive so how can u say the prophet is dead when he's greater than martyrs? U going against Qur'an.

 

[ataullah]

It simply means that IF we were alive during Mohammed's time to obey him. he is now dead. So nothing to obey. Can't obey dead people.

If Koran, which you consider is the perfect book, meant for us to obey the life-story of Rasulallah, then it'd have mentioned it as such. instead, it used a first person singular verb 'obey the person (prophet)'.


The implication is pretty obvious.

He's not alive according to u so don't obey him? Do as u wish? So according to this only sahabah had to obey he SAW?

 

[Traveller55]

Qur'an says martyrs are alive so how can u say the prophet is dead when he's greater than martyrs? U going against Qur'an. ��

Quran says martyrs and prophets are alive- in heaven. Unless you have a direct telephone line to heaven, then they are dead TO THIS WORLD. Can't obey someone who is dead to the world.

As i said, do you obey your great great great great great Grandfather ?

 

[Traveller55]

He's not alive according to u so don't obey him? Do as u wish? So according to this only sahabah had to obey he SAW?

I am a former muslim, so yes i do as i wish. But when i was a muslim, i transitioned from the same following hadiths written by men centuries after Mohammed and changed, altered and contradictory to each other, then i went 'Koran only' way.

The Koran, it is clear, is speaking to BOTH the current generation ( the generation it was written, aka Mohammed's time) as well as for the future. When it speaks for the future, it makes it CLEAR that its speaking for the future.
The term 'obey' is applied to the person. Not to the life story of the said person.

As i said, you can't obey someone when they are dead. You follow their commands, yes. But the koran also says not to follow customs - and the hadiths are simply customs, which are no more reliable than the Bible, because like the Bible, many different versions exist and many contradictions and ridiculous stories exist in them.

 

[ataullah]

Quran says martyrs and prophets are alive- in heaven. Unless you have a direct telephone line to heaven, then they are dead TO THIS WORLD. Can't obey someone who is dead to the world.

As i said, do you obey your great great great great great Grandfather ?

Plz provide proof prophet SAW is dead to this world from Qur'an as u only believe Qur'an. I have proof he's alive in his grave from hadith

 

[Abdullah719]

yes, but he was still human. And if the directive is 'follow the prophet', who is a human, its implied, without any qualifiers, to follow his living example. Not whats written about him. That, is an assumption/extrapolation of the directive.

The evidence is in the wording itself. It says to obey the messenger. you can't obey someone once they are dead.
That is the default usage of the word 'obey'.
In fact, i can easily say that if the Koran meant for the stories about Mohammed to be obeyed in perpetuity, then it'd have mentioned obeying the messenger's biography as well, not just the first person singular term of 'obey the messenger(person)'.

"He does not speak out of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired." (Qur'an 53:3-4)

Hadith are not stories about the Prophet (S). Many of them contain his words.

Establish Salāh and pay Zakāh and obey the messenger, so that you may be favored with mercy. (Qur'an 24:56)

Here, obeying the Messenger is mentioned alongside other commands that anyone with basic knowledge knows are for all of eternity.

"There is indeed a good model for you in the Messenger of Allah - for the one who has hope in Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah profusely." (Qur'an 33:21)

A model to follow. The wording is pretty clear.

 

[ataullah]

I am a former muslim, so yes i do as i wish. But when i was a muslim, i transitioned from the same following hadiths written by men centuries after Mohammed and changed, altered and contradictory to each other, then i went 'Koran only' way.

The Koran, it is clear, is speaking to BOTH the current generation ( the generation it was written, aka Mohammed's time) as well as for the future. When it speaks for the future, it makes it CLEAR that its speaking for the future.
The term 'obey' is applied to the person. Not to the life story of the said person.

As i said, you can't obey someone when they are dead. You follow their commands, yes. But the koran also says not to follow customs - and the hadiths are simply customs, which are no more reliable than the Bible, because like the Bible, many different versions exist and many contradictions and ridiculous stories exist in them.

Where does Qur'an say don't follow customs? Plz provide reference

 

[Traveller55]

Plz provide proof prophet SAW is dead to this world from Qur'an as u only believe Qur'an. I have proof he's alive in his grave from hadith

Proof from an altered book with contradictions from 1200+ years ago is not proof. Its simply a hear-say claim.
If Mohammed is alive to this world, i am sure someone would've informed him how Islam is doing in the Masjid-al-Nawabi.

More to the point, has anyone interacted with mohammed after his death ? Has anyone EVER claimed that they went and whispered to the prophet's grave and heard him whisper back ? the prophet came out of his grave ? projected an image of himself outside his grave ? No ? Then well, he is dead to the world.

As i said and you keep skirting the issue- The Koran does not say even ONCE to follow the biography or mohammed or the collections of his lifestory. Only to obey him.
If the Koran is the perfect book, then its a pretty big oversight from the perfect book to leave out specific mention of obeying his biography. Or you can use common sense and use the word 'obey'as it relates to a person: Obey them, till they are dead.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Proof from an altered book with contradictions from 1200+ years ago is not proof. Its simply a hear-say claim.
If Mohammed is alive to this world, i am sure someone would've informed him how Islam is doing in the Masjid-al-Nawabi.

More to the point, has anyone interacted with mohammed after his death ? Has anyone EVER claimed that they went and whispered to the prophet's grave and heard him whisper back ? the prophet came out of his grave ? projected an image of himself outside his grave ? No ? Then well, he is dead to the world.

As i said and you keep skirting the issue- The Koran does not say even ONCE to follow the biography or mohammed or the collections of his lifestory. Only to obey him.
If the Koran is the perfect book, then its a pretty big oversight from the perfect book to leave out specific mention of obeying his biography. Or you can use common sense and use the word 'obey'as it relates to a person: Obey them, till they are dead.

You have made another claim here.

So back up your claims .

1. 'women are treated inferior'

2. 'book with contradictions '

Also when speaking of the prophet on this forum, make sure you put 'pbuh' after his name.

 

[Traveller55]

Where does Qur'an say don't follow customs? Plz provide reference

1. In 6:114, the Koran claims itself to be fully detailed. Ergo, the implication is, everything else is unnecessary.

2. 6:38 says the Koran has not left ANYTHING out of the book.

3. 46:9 directly quotes Mohammed as saying he is the prophet and he follows NOTHING BUT the Koran.

4. 45:6 clearly states that Koran is the only book to be followed.


If you actually read the Koran, there are plenty of references in the Koran for it to be complete, the only book to be followed, etc. Which makes following hadiths to be actually blashpemous.

 

[ataullah]

I am a former muslim, so yes i do as i wish. But when i was a muslim, i transitioned from the same following hadiths written by men centuries after Mohammed and changed, altered and contradictory to each other, then i went 'Koran only' way.

The Koran, it is clear, is speaking to BOTH the current generation ( the generation it was written, aka Mohammed's time) as well as for the future. When it speaks for the future, it makes it CLEAR that its speaking for the future.
The term 'obey' is applied to the person. Not to the life story of the said person.

As i said, you can't obey someone when they are dead. You follow their commands, yes. But the koran also says not to follow customs - and the hadiths are simply customs, which are no more reliable than the Bible, because like the Bible, many different versions exist and many contradictions and ridiculous stories exist in them.

The reality is Ahadith were written during the time of Rasulullah صلى الله علیه وسلم. : There are numerous Sahabah who used to write the Ahadith of Rasulullah صلى الله علیه وسلم .

Some of them are:

1. Al-Sahifah-al-Saadiqah

This was the Hadith compilation of Hazrat Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas

Hazrat Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه narrates that:

عن أبي هريرة قال: "ما مِنْ أصحابِ النبيِّ - صلى الله عليه وسلم - أحدٌ أكثرَ حديثاً عنه منِّي؛ إِلا ما كانَ من عبدِ الله بنِ عمْروٍ؛ فإِنه كانَ يكتبُ، ولا أَكتبُ".

None of the Sahabah gathered more Ahadith than I besides Hazrat Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas .That is because he used to write and I would not write.

Hazrat Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه narrations are approximately 5374.

2.Sahifaat Hazrat Ali رضي الله عنه

In this compilation, the laws of Diyyat (blood money), Fidyah (compensation) and Qisaas (capital punishment) were written by Hazrat Ali

3. Kitabul Sadaqah

This is a compilation of Ahadith pertaining to Sadaqah (voluntary charity) and Zakaat (compulsory charity due to poor) dictated by Rasulullah صلى الله علیه وسلم which was passed over to Hazrat Abubakar رضي الله عنه

Many Ahadith are traced up to these written compilations of the Sahabah. Furthermore, it is a well-known fact that every Sahabi is honest.

Many Sahabah narrated Ahadith through their memories which were supported and collaborated through the narrations of other Sahabah.

This science of authenticating Ahadith is called Al-itbar in which every narrator in the chain of narrators is heavily scrutinised before accepting his narration.The history of each narrator is documented in detail in the books of Asmaul Rijaal.

It can be safely claimed that every authentic Hadith is traced to a written compilation of Ahadith at the time of Rasulullah صلى الله علىه وسلم and the claim of authenticity of every Hadith can be substantiated with overwhelming proof that satisfies ones conscious.

 

[Traveller55]

You have made another claim here.

So back up your claims .

1. 'women are treated inferior'

2. 'book with contradictions '

I have asked you for evidence and you keep running away from providing evidence on a SINGLE topic. I have already provided a lot of evidence for my claims. So you are not getting any more till you present evidence as asked of you.

Also when speaking of the prophet on this forum, make sure you put 'pbuh' after his name.

I do not take instructions from you. Get a moderator/administrator to state that and i will.

 

[ataullah]

1. In 6:114, the Koran claims itself to be fully detailed. Ergo, the implication is, everything else is unnecessary.

2. 6:38 says the Koran has not left ANYTHING out of the book.

3. 46:9 directly quotes Mohammed as saying he is the prophet and he follows NOTHING BUT the Koran.

4. 45:6 clearly states that Koran is the only book to be followed.


If you actually read the Koran, there are plenty of references in the Koran for it to be complete, the only book to be followed, etc. Which makes following hadiths to be actually blashpemous.

Provide Arabic plz. Have u copy pasted???

 

[JaDed]

Hope no one has a bank account here or any loan on their name,the ones being judgmental. If laws were made to stay then follow everything to the book,not pick and choose.

 

[Traveller55]

The reality is Ahadith were written during the time of Rasulullah صلى الله علیه وسلم. : There are numerous Sahabah who used to write the Ahadith of Rasulullah صلى الله علیه وسلم .

Some of them are:

1. Al-Sahifah-al-Saadiqah

This was the Hadith compilation of Hazrat Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas

Hazrat Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه narrates that:

عن أبي هريرة قال: "ما مِنْ أصحابِ النبيِّ - صلى الله عليه وسلم - أحدٌ أكثرَ حديثاً عنه منِّي؛ إِلا ما كانَ من عبدِ الله بنِ عمْروٍ؛ فإِنه كانَ يكتبُ، ولا أَكتبُ".

None of the Sahabah gathered more Ahadith than I besides Hazrat Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas .That is because he used to write and I would not write.

Hazrat Abu Hurairah رضي الله عنه narrations are approximately 5374.

2.Sahifaat Hazrat Ali رضي الله عنه

In this compilation, the laws of Diyyat (blood money), Fidyah (compensation) and Qisaas (capital punishment) were written by Hazrat Ali

3. Kitabul Sadaqah

This is a compilation of Ahadith pertaining to Sadaqah (voluntary charity) and Zakaat (compulsory charity due to poor) dictated by Rasulullah صلى الله علیه وسلم which was passed over to Hazrat Abubakar رضي الله عنه

Many Ahadith are traced up to these written compilations of the Sahabah. Furthermore, it is a well-known fact that every Sahabi is honest.

Many Sahabah narrated Ahadith through their memories which were supported and collaborated through the narrations of other Sahabah.

This science of authenticating Ahadith is called Al-itbar in which every narrator in the chain of narrators is heavily scrutinised before accepting his narration.The history of each narrator is documented in detail in the books of Asmaul Rijaal.

It can be safely claimed that every authentic Hadith is traced to a written compilation of Ahadith at the time of Rasulullah صلى الله علىه وسلم and the claim of authenticity of every Hadith can be substantiated with overwhelming proof that satisfies ones conscious.

it does not matter who wrote them. What matters is that they are all corrupted, because there are several versions of each and every hadith floating around. Its just like the bible- changed, corrupted from the original and therefore, unreliable.

And as i said, the study of hadiths is not science. Scientific study requires empiricism and objective rationalism (which can be mathematically demonstrated). Rest are just studies, nothing more, nothing less.
Just like how studying history or philosophy is not a 'science' so too is the case with studying the Hadiths.

As for what you are claiming, no such 'safe claim' can be made, because of inconsistencies between various versions of the hadiths. There is no objective basis to claim what is true and what is not, just like the argument used against the Bible.

There is also no proof, since we are lacking the original manuscripts. We can only trace them to a certain point and thats it, with no idea what it was before that point in history.

 

[ataullah]

1. In 6:114, the Koran claims itself to be fully detailed. Ergo, the implication is, everything else is unnecessary.

2. 6:38 says the Koran has not left ANYTHING out of the book.

3. 46:9 directly quotes Mohammed as saying he is the prophet and he follows NOTHING BUT the Koran.

4. 45:6 clearly states that Koran is the only book to be followed.


If you actually read the Koran, there are plenty of references in the Koran for it to be complete, the only book to be followed, etc. Which makes following hadiths to be actually blashpemous.

Qur'an is compared to other holy scriptures like torah, bible and psalms. Hadith is not وحی متلو or speech of Allah. When comparing Pakistan u don't compare it to Delhi but to India.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I have asked you for evidence and you keep running away from providing evidence on a SINGLE topic. I have already provided a lot of evidence for my claims. So you are not getting any more till you present evidence as asked of you.

I will start a whole thread on your heros when I have more time.

You can start a thread on your claims or back them up here? Show us you speak the truth,

do not take instructions from you. Get a moderator/administrator to state that and i will.

Its not my rule but the administrators,
[MENTION=137997]Abdullah[/MENTION]7719 @MIG

 

[Traveller55]

Provide Arabic plz. Have u copy pasted???

Why ? So you can claim whatever you like about a language hardly anyone knows here fluently ?
Sorry, these are from an Islamic website itself. I trust their translation when it comes to their religion.


Are you denying the fact that the Koran claims it is fully detailed and it has not left anything out ???

If you accept these facts about the Koran, explain the role of the Hadiths. You cannot accept the Koran's claim to be 'fully detailed and complete' and then turn around and say 'we need other books !!'- thats a direct violation of what the koran itself says.

 

[ataullah]

it does not matter who wrote them. What matters is that they are all corrupted, because there are several versions of each and every hadith floating around. Its just like the bible- changed, corrupted from the original and therefore, unreliable.

And as i said, the study of hadiths is not science. Scientific study requires empiricism and objective rationalism (which can be mathematically demonstrated). Rest are just studies, nothing more, nothing less.
Just like how studying history or philosophy is not a 'science' so too is the case with studying the Hadiths.

As for what you are claiming, no such 'safe claim' can be made, because of inconsistencies between various versions of the hadiths. There is no objective basis to claim what is true and what is not, just like the argument used against the Bible.

There is also no proof, since we are lacking the original manuscripts. We can only trace them to a certain point and thats it, with no idea what it was before that point in history.

All are not corrupted. Mutawatir is very strong with chain of narration. It is when so many narrators narrate it in every era that there remains no doubt

 

[Traveller55]

I will start a whole thread on your heros when I have more time.

You can start a thread on your claims or back them up here? Show us you speak the truth,

As i said, the ball is in your court for evidence. Till you provide some, you have lost your right to ask any from me, as i have already presented plenty of evidence.

Its not my rule but the administrators,
[MENTION=137997]Abdullah[/MENTION]7719 @MIG

Ok, so when they say so, i will do so.

 

[ataullah]

Why ? So you can claim whatever you like about a language hardly anyone knows here fluently ?
Sorry, these are from an Islamic website itself. I trust their translation when it comes to their religion.


Are you denying the fact that the Koran claims it is fully detailed and it has not left anything out ???

If you accept these facts about the Koran, explain the role of the Hadiths. You cannot accept the Koran's claim to be 'fully detailed and complete' and then turn around and say 'we need other books !!'- thats a direct violation of what the koran itself says.

U need to provide arabic. Not one of them references is what I'm asking for.

 

[Traveller55]

All are not corrupted. Mutawatir is very strong with chain of narration. It is when so many narrators narrate it in every era that there remains no doubt

The chain of narration is a claim. There is no objective manuscript to verify it with.

As i said, use the same logic you use with the bible. So if the Bible came from God (as muslims believe) but got corrupted - then muslims should be ok to accept the parts of the bible that is common to ALL the bibles ?
Its the same logic you are using with the Hadiths.

So if you are not going to accept the parts of the bible that are all consistent with the various versions, why are you comfortable using it for the Hadiths ?!


PS: ALL compilations of the Hadiths have been altered. Each an every book has various versions. Just like the Bible.

 

[Traveller55]

U need to provide arabic. Not one of them references is what I'm asking for.

Why do i have to provide arabic ?
Nobody here is fluent in arabic. Nobody here is an arabic grammarian. Hence i trust the translation of muslim websites who translated their own book.

I will ask you a simple question and you can answer in yes or no:

Does the Koran claim itself to be complete and fully detailed ?

You clearly know the arabic, so tell us, if the quote from Koran i provided where it claims to be complete and fully detailed is true or false.

 

[ataullah]

Why ? So you can claim whatever you like about a language hardly anyone knows here fluently ?
Sorry, these are from an Islamic website itself. I trust their translation when it comes to their religion.


Are you denying the fact that the Koran claims it is fully detailed and it has not left anything out ???

If you accept these facts about the Koran, explain the role of the Hadiths. You cannot accept the Koran's claim to be 'fully detailed and complete' and then turn around and say 'we need other books !!'- thats a direct violation of what the koran itself says.

I can't deny the book which is preserved in my heart like surah ikhlas Alhamdulillah.

I can't deny the book which is read 24/7 by people who don't even understand it. Is there anything comparable to the book and speech of Allah?

Can the miracle of all miracles be denied???

 

[KingKhanWC]

As i said, the ball is in your court for evidence. Till you provide some, you have lost your right to ask any from me, as i have already presented plenty of evidence.




Ok, so when they say so, i will do so.

You cant back up your nonsense.

The thread will appear within half hour. : )

 

[Traveller55]

I can't deny the book which is preserved in my heart like surah ikhlas Alhamdulillah.

I can't deny the book which is read 24/7 by people who don't even understand it. Is there anything comparable to the book and speech of Allah?

Can the miracle of all miracles be denied???

You dodged the question

Does the Koran say that it is complete and fully detailed or not ???

 

[ataullah]

The chain of narration is a claim. There is no objective manuscript to verify it with.

As i said, use the same logic you use with the bible. So if the Bible came from God (as muslims believe) but got corrupted - then muslims should be ok to accept the parts of the bible that is common to ALL the bibles ?
Its the same logic you are using with the Hadiths.

So if you are not going to accept the parts of the bible that are all consistent with the various versions, why are you comfortable using it for the Hadiths ?!


PS: ALL compilations of the Hadiths have been altered. Each an every book has various versions. Just like the Bible.

We believe it's from Allah but as well as altered it's also ناسخ منسوخ and was for that particular time. Ahadith are for this time and can't be compared to bible.

 

[Traveller55]

We believe it's from Allah but as well as altered it's also ناسخ منسوخ and was for that particular time. Ahadith are for this time and can't be compared to bible.

Why can it not be compared to the bible. Explain

They are both books written, with multiple versions around. if anything,the Bible is of a higher stature than the Hadith, because the Koran states that the bible originally came from God- it does not claim that for ANY of the Hadiths, so the Hadiths are inferior to the bible.

So therefore, any methodology used to verify the authenticity of the hadiths, should also apply to the Bible.


And stop dodging my question.
I will ask a fourth time : Does the koran claim itself to be complete and fully detailed, as the link i provided, or not ???

 

[ataullah]

Why can it not be compared to the bible. Explain

They are both books written, with multiple versions around. if anything,the Bible is of a higher stature than the Hadith, because the Koran states that the bible originally came from God- it does not claim that for ANY of the Hadiths, so the Hadiths are inferior to the bible.

So therefore, any methodology used to verify the authenticity of the hadiths, should also apply to the Bible.


And stop dodging my question.
I will ask a fourth time : Does the koran claim itself to be complete and fully detailed, as the link i provided, or not ???

U provide arabic reference plz

 

[Traveller55]

U provide arabic reference plz

Do you know the Koran or not ?

Tell us what 6:114 and 6:38 in the Koran say then.

Its a simple question, which apparently an imminent Islamic scholar like yourself should be able to answer easily.

if you have a Koran, open it to 6:114 and 6:38 and enlighten us, what it says.

 

[Abdullah719]

1. In 6:114, the Koran claims itself to be fully detailed. Ergo, the implication is, everything else is unnecessary.

"So, should I seek someone other than Allah as judge, while it is He who has sent down to you the Book in details?"

It doesn't say what you say it says.

2. 6:38 says the Koran has not left ANYTHING out of the book.

"There is no creature moving on the earth, nor a bird flying on its two wings, but they are all communities like you. We have not missed anything in the Book. Then, to their Lord all of them shall be gathered."

Al-Kitabu is the word used here which is not interpreted to mean the Qur'an. Rather, it refers to the Book of Decree where Allah has
already recorded all that has happened and will happen.

3. 46:9 directly quotes Mohammed as saying he is the prophet and he follows NOTHING BUT the Koran.

"Say, “I am not something unprecedented among the messengers, and I do not know what will be done to me or to you. I do not follow anything but what is revealed to me, and I am only a clear warner.”"

What is revealed to him, does not mean the Qur'an exclusively. The verse I mentioned above (53:3-4) stated that the Prophet (S) doesn't speak of his own desire; therefore whatever he said related to the religion was divinely inspired.

4. 45:6 clearly states that Koran is the only book to be followed.

"These are Allah’s verses that We recite to you rightly. Then, in which discourse, after Allah and His verses, will they believe?"

Again, the verse doesn't say what you say it says.

 

[JoniInsafian]

Why do people keep wanting to change essence of Islam? Nobody forcing you to follow it.... Islam is a patriarchal religion where man is leader of the household.... And women keep parda and they certainly can't lead a prayer... In fact the wives of the prophet were never seen by anyone so how could it be that they would lead a prayer in front of hundreds of men?? Reason being that this is Islam.... There are plenty of Hadiths and texts which support the fact that men are superior to women... So if as a woman you want to be a feminist then be our guest but don't corrupt islam with your weird notions....

Feminism and Islam can never go together... You should make a choice instead of ruining it for everybody else...

 

[indipper]

As I saw a news of "Gay Imam" somewhere in US, I am not surprised with this one. A nation where girls are going crazy, this is very much on the cards.

You cant follow religion in a selective manner. When women are forbidden even to speak freely with unknown men, how can she be allowed to lead a prayer. Its not about being inferior or superior. Its about respecting gender limits.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Non Muslims and ex Muslims lecturing on Islam

 

[Traveller55]

Non Muslims and ex Muslims lecturing on Islam

Common fallacy amongst religious people is to assume ex-religious people are ignorant.
We are atheists not because we don't know religion, but because we studied it DEEPLY and found it to be bakwaas.

Go to any atheist convention and you will find that unless they are kids/teens, they know far more about the religion in question than 99% of people FROM that religion. Atheism is not knee-jerk, it comes from rejection of religion after investigating it.

 

[Heisenberg]

Show us some evidence to show women are INFERIOR to men?

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri

The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."

Sahih Bukhari 3 : 48 : 826

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah, his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

Qur'an 2:282

As clear as clear can be.

 

[big_gamer007]

Females can lead females but not males. How is this regressive? Women and men are separated in many areas of life.

Death threats are obviously wrong but its more than fair to criticise such Muslims as they are not following their religion. Similar cases have appeared in Europe too but these are not even 0.01% of the population.

It’s either the religion or the followers who have diluted the religion over thousands of years and have made it regressive..

Let’s agree to disagree no point arguing since you will never accept i and what I am seeing makes it crystal clear it’s divisive/regressive.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

To everyone reading this thread, this is why it is impossible to reform Islam beyond a point compared to other religions as evidenced by the arguments. If the Qur'an is ,as per Muslim belief, the word of God and is for all time then there is very little scope for any progressive thought within the Islamic world.

 

[Varun]

I love these threads, as it gets the resident Mullahs out.

Personally - I can't even abide by the rules set by my apartment society. Being a Muslim or Christian would have been next to impossible with their gamut of laws and regulations.

 

[CricketCartoons]

I love these threads, as it gets the resident Mullahs out.

Personally - I can't even abide by the rules set by my apartment society. Being a Muslim or Christian would have been next to impossible with their gamut of laws and regulations.

I love these threads too. Brings the Hindus wanting to reform Islam together.

 

[Asim_khan]

Her organisation is called the Quran Sunnath Society yet she is purposefully ignoring the Sunnah so she can lead the jamaat.

Those making death threats are ignoring the fact you can't take the law into your own hands, vigilantiism is a capital offence in most Shariah, yet continue to do so.

They both create huge headlines and manage to fill columns and columns of op-eds, everyone's got an opinion on forums and social media, yet nobody is asking the most important questions...
....why aren't those blokes behind her covering thier heads??

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Common fallacy amongst religious people is to assume ex-religious people are ignorant.
We are atheists not because we don't know religion, but because we studied it DEEPLY and found it to be bakwaas.

Go to any atheist convention and you will find that unless they are kids/teens, they know far more about the religion in question than 99% of people FROM that religion. Atheism is not knee-jerk, it comes from rejection of religion after investigating it.

people from outside AJK know more about it then those from there.... and now non Muslims know more about Islam than Muslims themselves ... i would thought getting caught out telling Porkies in AJK thread would put an end to your campaign.... but hey ho.

In anycase, how Muslims get on with their religion isn't your concern.

 

[Traveller55]

people from outside AJK know more about it then those from there.... and now non Muslims know more about Islam than Muslims themselves ... i would thought getting caught out telling Porkies in AJK thread would put an end to your campaign.... but hey ho.

In anycase, how Muslims get on with their religion isn't your concern.

As long as muslims want a sharia law society, its my concern, because that's mixing government and religion. As long as individual rights are respected (which means letting your women do whatever they wish) and the religion is kept behind closed doors, I have no problems.
The moment you want to run a society on the basis of what an unsubstantiated book tells you, I have a problem. Simple.

PS: Nobody said non-muslims know more about Islam than muslim. I said that most EX-muslims know about Islam is why we left Islam.

 

[Abdullah719]

Common fallacy amongst religious people is to assume ex-religious people are ignorant.
We are atheists not because we don't know religion, but because we studied it DEEPLY and found it to be bakwaas.

Go to any atheist convention and you will find that unless they are kids/teens, they know far more about the religion in question than 99% of people FROM that religion. Atheism is not knee-jerk, it comes from rejection of religion after investigating it.

It's a bit difficult to take your arguments seriously considering what you wrote in #96 and how you avoided responding to #92 and #117.

 

[DeadBall]

Common fallacy amongst religious people is to assume ex-religious people are ignorant.
We are atheists not because we don't know religion, but because we studied it DEEPLY and found it to be bakwaas.

Go to any atheist convention and you will find that unless they are kids/teens, they know far more about the religion in question than 99% of people FROM that religion. Atheism is not knee-jerk, it comes from rejection of religion after investigating it.

This. My family is deeply religious and in various top Islamic teaching posts in the UAE and SA and I was also brought up deeply religious. Heck I even studied Fiqh for an year under a well known scholar in Makkah. In my teenage years I even debated with a lot of my Christians friends regarding the Bible and The Quran and the more I studied the religion to show how its the one true word of God, ironically the more fallacies I found in it. I also speak Arabic fluently as I am half Arab and I just chuckle at the wannabe Mullahs who just repeat things like a parrot when they can't even speak the language.

The road to my becoming an anti theist was a long and arduous one with many sacrifices, some of which I am still paying for but I believe I am a better person for it. I just don't bother to discuss anything with religious people anymore especially online as the brainwashing and indoctrination since childhood is too severe and no change will come unless it comes from within.

 

[Traveller55]

To everyone reading this thread, this is why it is impossible to reform Islam beyond a point compared to other religions as evidenced by the arguments. If the Qur'an is ,as per Muslim belief, the word of God and is for all time then there is very little scope for any progressive thought within the Islamic world.

Not really. Christians used the same arguments for centuries and Christianity was a lot more regimented than Islam ever was.
It was conquered through philosophy. That is the Achilles heel of Islam - the philosophical base of Islam is pretty weak and this is why western universalism is making strong inroads in the heartland of Islam- due to their massive superiority of conceptualization of ideas and prior experience.

I will give you an example - the simple word 'perfect'. What is perfect ? how does one define 'perfection' as in relation to 'God' ?
This idea alone, if you read both theist (Kant for eg) and atheist (Schopenhauer for eg) can fill up an entire library. Contrast that to this very idea investigated in Islamic literatre and its 0.00001% as voluminous or in-depth.

I won't say it here,because it can get me banned, but Schopenhauer's rationale in "The World as Will and Representation' can be easily used to prove that there is no object on this earth - person, book, landscape,animal, etc. that can be considered 'perfect'.

Islam has shielded itself with blasphemy laws and violence against those who criticize it - yes, people will say 'that's not true Islam/what Islam stands for' but that is the reality of Islamic history in almost everywhere in the world.
And that is the reason why former muslims like me end up leaving Islam in droves when we get to the west : in west there is no such shielding (though its on the rise, due to Islamists claiming 'islamophobia' when Islam is criticized these days) and once exposed to critical thinking, its hard to go back to blissful ignorance.
So have hope. Humanity will move forward and not be constrained by out-dated and spurious thought process shrink-wrapped in 'divinity' shields.

 

[troodon]

Can women preach in Islam like a Moulvi?

 

[Heisenberg]

This. My family is deeply religious and in various top Islamic teaching posts in the UAE and SA and I was also brought up deeply religious. Heck I even studied Fiqh for an year under a well known scholar in Makkah. In my teenage years I even debated with a lot of my Christians friends regarding the Bible and The Quran and the more I studied the religion to show how its the one true word of God, ironically the more fallacies I found in it. I also speak Arabic fluently as I am half Arab and I just chuckle at the wannabe Mullahs who just repeat things like a parrot when they can't even speak the language.

The road to my becoming an anti theist was a long and arduous one with many sacrifices, some of which I am still paying for but I believe I am a better person for it. I just don't bother to discuss anything with religious people anymore especially online as the brainwashing and indoctrination since childhood is too severe and no change will come unless it comes from within.

Top post

 

[Traveller55]

"So, should I seek someone other than Allah as judge, while it is He who has sent down to you the Book in details?"

It doesn't say what you say it says.



"There is no creature moving on the earth, nor a bird flying on its two wings, but they are all communities like you. We have not missed anything in the Book. Then, to their Lord all of them shall be gathered."

Al-Kitabu is the word used here which is not interpreted to mean the Qur'an. Rather, it refers to the Book of Decree where Allah has
already recorded all that has happened and will happen.



"Say, “I am not something unprecedented among the messengers, and I do not know what will be done to me or to you. I do not follow anything but what is revealed to me, and I am only a clear warner.”"

What is revealed to him, does not mean the Qur'an exclusively. The verse I mentioned above (53:3-4) stated that the Prophet (S) doesn't speak of his own desire; therefore whatever he said related to the religion was divinely inspired.



"These are Allah’s verses that We recite to you rightly. Then, in which discourse, after Allah and His verses, will they believe?"

Again, the verse doesn't say what you say it says.

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/a...had-opposition-from-shaitan-and-his-followers

Here you go.

 

[Traveller55]

"He does not speak out of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired." (Qur'an 53:3-4)

Hadith are not stories about the Prophet (S). Many of them contain his words.

Establish Salāh and pay Zakāh and obey the messenger, so that you may be favored with mercy. (Qur'an 24:56)

Here, obeying the Messenger is mentioned alongside other commands that anyone with basic knowledge knows are for all of eternity.

"There is indeed a good model for you in the Messenger of Allah - for the one who has hope in Allah and the Last Day, and remembers Allah profusely." (Qur'an 33:21)

A model to follow. The wording is pretty clear.

They are stories about the prophet. Did he write it himself ? No. Was it written by others ? Yes. Is it claimed to be unaltered and unmolested through time ? No.
Therefore, they are stories.
If I tell you 'hey so Bill Gates said so n so', it doesn't become Bill Gates' words, its a story about Bill Gates.

Nothing in those words you quoted imply that we should listen to stories about Mohammed and follow those stories.

 

[Abdullah719]

They are stories about the prophet. Did he write it himself ? No. Was it written by others ? Yes. Is it claimed to be unaltered and unmolested through time ? No.
Therefore, they are stories.
If I tell you 'hey so Bill Gates said so n so', it doesn't become Bill Gates' words, its a story about Bill Gates.

Incorrect.

If someone publishes an article about what Bill Gates said, it's stated to be a report, not a story. Exact words that are referenced are called quotations, not stories.

Nothing in those words you quoted imply that we should listen to stories about Mohammed and follow those stories.

You made a claim contrary to what is known and has been accepted for generations, the onus is on you to provide the evidence.

 

[Abdullah719]

http://www.alim.org/library/quran/a...had-opposition-from-shaitan-and-his-followers

Here you go.

Since you didn't bother responding to the other three points, I assume you accept that you were wrong. Good to know!

Regarding 6:114, the Arabic word مفصلا means detailed.

Al-Kitabu Mufassala = The detailed book.

Your argument is based on one or two translations which say 'fully explained' which you extrapolate to mean = Nothing else is required besides the Qur'an.

But that's not what the Arabic states.

If everything is 'fully explained' and nothing else is required, how and why did the Prophet (S) teach his followers how to pray? It's not stated in the Qur'an.

 

[faraz39]

The extremely small minority of Muslims that engage in such new age gimmicks will never get much traction and will fizzle out after their 15 minutes of fame. Best to ignore them in real life and online as they'll move on to another societal fad in a few years.

 

[Musakhel]

The Quran is muttawatir (mass transmitted) hadith I.e. anyone who rejects muttawatir hadith can not than claim to accept the Quran since the method of preservation is the same.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri

The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind."

Sahih Bukhari 3 : 48 : 826

O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah, his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.

Qur'an 2:282

As clear as clear can be.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.htm

 

[KingKhanWC]

It’s either the religion or the followers who have diluted the religion over thousands of years and have made it regressive..

Let’s agree to disagree no point arguing since you will never accept i and what I am seeing makes it crystal clear it’s divisive/regressive.

If you cant debate it then you continue what you feel you are seeing but you are wrong. Much wiser and educated people than you have tried to make such an argument against Islam but failed.

 

[Abdullah719]

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Imagine you just got done with wudhu,ready to pray and you see this <a href="https://t.co/vG0AD8XdmG">pic.twitter.com/vG0AD8XdmG</a></p>— عبد الكريم (@alldayabdi) <a href="https://twitter.com/alldayabdi/status/958061900201414656?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 29, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Listen to what she says after rising from ruku...

It's basic knowledge that any Muslim who knows how to pray will be aware of - You say sami‘a Allahu liman hamidah at this point, not Allahu akbar.

 

[humzy]

The conversations being had in this thread are very interesting even if it doesn't directly relate to the original post.

I too grew up in deeply religious family in a western country and had religion drilled in me from a young age. In fact it was something I took a lot of pride in.

In my early 20s I slowly transitioned to a Quran only method of Islam and am now at the point of Agnosticism. It took me an 8 year period to get to this point.

 

[Heisenberg]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.htm

I'm not going to read that thesis. If you want to copy paste the relevant part, go ahead.

 

[Heisenberg]

http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/women_not_deficient_in_intelligence_and_religion.htm

Is it possible that the two above wry comments of the Prophet were also intended to be taken as examples of his humour ?

This is an excerpt from the link. I'm not even sure if it's not just a parody refutation. Just a bit of sexist humour by the prophet that made the hadith for Muslims to follow innit

 

[pillionrider]

If that’s what your religion says it’s regressive and should be updated.. No offence to any Muslims here but if that is what Islam says then it needs to be upgraded.. Before people blast me or my post gets deleted by mods I would say the same thing if it was said in Hinduism.. Religion is more like guidelines and should constantly be upgraded as people and societies evolve.. When Islam came into being status of women was very servisile today it’s changed so it should be changed..

Having said that I know different people have different interpretations of Islam and I would like to hear from learned people like [MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION] what does Quran or Hadeeth say in this matter..

How many women pujaris have you seen? Or for that matter, priests in Christianity?

 

[big_gamer007]

How many women pujaris have you seen? Or for that matter, priests in Christianity?

That’s regressive as well, two wrongs don’t make a right this is the problem with people rather than accepting short comings and working on them they blame others..

 

[big_gamer007]

If you cant debate it then you continue what you feel you are seeing but you are wrong. Much wiser and educated people than you have tried to make such an argument against Islam but failed.

I don’t need some scholar or wise person to understand the right and wrongs.. You may feel I am wrong but I feel you are wrong.. Islam as a whole might be progressive but this particular case where only a man can lead prayers and a female can’t is pretty regressive.. It was probably fine when this was practised in old times Bt in today’s time it should be modified.. However, as I said before religionists are pretty stringent and slight change or even suggesting it can lead to riots/killings etc so nothing is going to happen..

So in simple terms this particular condition in Islam (if it is actually in pure Islam and not just in diluted versions made by man) is regressive and divisive..

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Not really. Christians used the same arguments for centuries and Christianity was a lot more regimented than Islam ever was.
It was conquered through philosophy. That is the Achilles heel of Islam - the philosophical base of Islam is pretty weak and this is why western universalism is making strong inroads in the heartland of Islam- due to their massive superiority of conceptualization of ideas and prior experience.

I will give you an example - the simple word 'perfect'. What is perfect ? how does one define 'perfection' as in relation to 'God' ?
This idea alone, if you read both theist (Kant for eg) and atheist (Schopenhauer for eg) can fill up an entire library. Contrast that to this very idea investigated in Islamic literatre and its 0.00001% as voluminous or in-depth.

I won't say it here,because it can get me banned, but Schopenhauer's rationale in "The World as Will and Representation' can be easily used to prove that there is no object on this earth - person, book, landscape,animal, etc. that can be considered 'perfect'.

Islam has shielded itself with blasphemy laws and violence against those who criticize it - yes, people will say 'that's not true Islam/what Islam stands for' but that is the reality of Islamic history in almost everywhere in the world.
And that is the reason why former muslims like me end up leaving Islam in droves when we get to the west : in west there is no such shielding (though its on the rise, due to Islamists claiming 'islamophobia' when Islam is criticized these days) and once exposed to critical thinking, its hard to go back to blissful ignorance.
So have hope. Humanity will move forward and not be constrained by out-dated and spurious thought process shrink-wrapped in 'divinity' shields.

But there is a difference, the central character of Jesus and the miracles he performed than the Bible as a text which is accepted go he written by scribes even by the various churches. AFAIK, only Islam and Judaism give such importance and an autonomous realm beyond criticism go their holy texts and,bhebce, impossible to reform. In not advocating reform either, just pointing out that those who do think it can be reformed are a little mistaken. Throughout the history of Christisnity, deconstruction of biblical texts happened within the Christian tradition itself. Im not aware of something similar in Islamic tradition and the Qur'an has not been put to such rigour. Also, I don't think most practising Muslims want reform either as you can see the insecurity with respect to 'destroying the essence' if Islam Fair enough but then the lines are pretty clearly drawn I guess. Christianity of today survives in a very perverteed, impure form but Islam doesn't offer such scope. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Traveller55]

But there is a difference, the central character of Jesus and the miracles he performed than the Bible as a text which is accepted go he written by scribes even by the various churches. AFAIK, only Islam and Judaism give such importance and an autonomous realm beyond criticism go their holy texts and,bhebce, impossible to reform. In not advocating reform either, just pointing out that those who do think it can be reformed are a little mistaken. Throughout the history of Christisnity, deconstruction of biblical texts happened within the Christian tradition itself. Im not aware of something similar in Islamic tradition and the Qur'an has not been put to such rigour. Also, I don't think most practising Muslims want reform either as you can see the insecurity with respect to 'destroying the essence' if Islam Fair enough but then the lines are pretty clearly drawn I guess. Christianity of today survives in a very perverteed, impure form but Islam doesn't offer such scope. Just my 2 cents.

Much of what you say is true. My point was, for hundreds of years, Bible got the same treatment as the Koran does now- criticize it openly and you die in lands dominated by its religion. Or thrown into jail at the very least.
But as the west got more educated, they were able to break this power.
We are already doing it in the west- where Islam (minus immigration) is stagnating, primarily because through rigorous logic and reasoning, enough muslims are becoming convinced to leave Islam, that their numbers are only offset by the birth-rates amongst still-believers.

And with more time, it will happen in its heartland too. Already, western culture is winning in the heartland of Islam. In Arabia, people are wearing jeans, Arab women wear western clothing at home or under the burkha. Most take it off the moment they are outside Arabia. They are starting to drink and in places like Dubai, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman- the culture is slowly shifting.
The process will be slow, but as the saying goes- truth always prevails and ideas that hide behind fear and retribution against its criticizers cannot live on indefinitely.

When Islam falls, it will fall pretty quickly, because unlike Christianity, Islamic philosophy is very poorly developed.
Forget putting the Koran under investigation, they have not even put it under extrapolation very much, conceptually.

For eg, as I noted earlier- go into Christian philosophy itself and you will find an entire library's collection of Christian monks, saints and priests writing thesis on what 'perfection' truly means. Or 'eternity' means. Or 'all-knowing' means. Just the concepts itself. Yes, they used it to bolster their own faith. But such concepts are very sparse and very few in Islamic scholarship.
So they don't actually have much of a philosophical base to survive on, once criticism comes in droves.

The biggest strength of the Christians is the biggest weakness of the muslims : religious philosophy. This is why you still have more Christians on the planet today than Muslims, despite the Muslim holy book being atleast internally consistent (though still flawed) whereas the Christian holy book is as crazy as a teenager with schizophrenia writing it.

 

[Varun]

The extremely small minority of Muslims that engage in such new age gimmicks will never get much traction and will fizzle out after their 15 minutes of fame. Best to ignore them in real life and online as they'll move on to another societal fad in a few years.

A balanced response. If you don't like it, just ignore them. Taking things into your own hands is when your troubles potentially start.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Much of what you say is true. My point was, for hundreds of years, Bible got the same treatment as the Koran does now- criticize it openly and you die in lands dominated by its religion. Or thrown into jail at the very least.
But as the west got more educated, they were able to break this power.
We are already doing it in the west- where Islam (minus immigration) is stagnating, primarily because through rigorous logic and reasoning, enough muslims are becoming convinced to leave Islam, that their numbers are only offset by the birth-rates amongst still-believers.

And with more time, it will happen in its heartland too. Already, western culture is winning in the heartland of Islam. In Arabia, people are wearing jeans, Arab women wear western clothing at home or under the burkha. Most take it off the moment they are outside Arabia. They are starting to drink and in places like Dubai, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman- the culture is slowly shifting.
The process will be slow, but as the saying goes- truth always prevails and ideas that hide behind fear and retribution against its criticizers cannot live on indefinitely.

When Islam falls, it will fall pretty quickly, because unlike Christianity, Islamic philosophy is very poorly developed.
Forget putting the Koran under investigation, they have not even put it under extrapolation very much, conceptually.

For eg, as I noted earlier- go into Christian philosophy itself and you will find an entire library's collection of Christian monks, saints and priests writing thesis on what 'perfection' truly means. Or 'eternity' means. Or 'all-knowing' means. Just the concepts itself. Yes, they used it to bolster their own faith. But such concepts are very sparse and very few in Islamic scholarship.
So they don't actually have much of a philosophical base to survive on, once criticism comes in droves.

The biggest strength of the Christians is the biggest weakness of the muslims : religious philosophy. This is why you still have more Christians on the planet today than Muslims, despite the Muslim holy book being atleast internally consistent (though still flawed) whereas the Christian holy book is as crazy as a teenager with schizophrenia writing it.

Fair enough.

 

[Madplayer]

She should be allowed to do what she wants but Please dont say its Islam. It is not.

She should say its her personal way to practice religion rather than saying it has something to do with Islam.

By the way, a lot of Indian "muslims" are becoming a joke day by day as far as practicing Islam in its purest form is concerned.

 

[kaayal]

you lead men's prayer?

No, we have seperate rooms at the office. At home i lead the prayer for small boys(nephews) if men are not there.

My bad i should have worded it correctly. Female Imams are common for women and kids but not for grown up men.

 

[kaayal]

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Imagine you just got done with wudhu,ready to pray and you see this <a href="https://t.co/vG0AD8XdmG">pic.twitter.com/vG0AD8XdmG</a></p>— عبد الكريم (@alldayabdi) <a href="https://twitter.com/alldayabdi/status/958061900201414656?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 29, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Listen to what she says after rising from ruku...

It's basic knowledge that any Muslim who knows how to pray will be aware of - You say sami‘a Allahu liman hamidah at this point, not Allahu akbar.

There was a book from QSS criticising the Ramzan fasting. Saying that it's no where written in Quran that Prophet Muhammad ever fasted during that holy month.

The founder of this group was murdered in 1993 by some sunni people. Many were arrested and convicted.

 

[Madplayer]

<blockquote class="twitter-video" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Imagine you just got done with wudhu,ready to pray and you see this <a href="https://t.co/vG0AD8XdmG">pic.twitter.com/vG0AD8XdmG</a></p>— عبد الكريم (@alldayabdi) <a href="https://twitter.com/alldayabdi/status/958061900201414656?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 29, 2018</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Listen to what she says after rising from ruku...

It's basic knowledge that any Muslim who knows how to pray will be aware of - You say sami‘a Allahu liman hamidah at this point, not Allahu akbar.

Yes she made an error there but mistakes happen sometimes. I am sure you dont mean she is incapable of leading prayers. She is capable but not allowed.

 

[Rafa]

She should be allowed to do what she wants but Please dont say its Islam. It is not.

She should say its her personal way to practice religion rather than saying it has something to do with Islam.

By the way, a lot of Indian "muslims" are becoming a joke day by day as far as practicing Islam in its purest form is concerned.

Agree, many such instances of making mockery of Islam keep popping up from India, Where such Muslims receive applause from their Non-Muslim Countrymen Cheerleaders for reforming Islam

Just last week I read a report about an India Muslim Gay Man coming out of closet who maintains that he is a strong believer inspite of his preference and how Islam support homosexuality. Only a matter of time before such people start twisting Islam to suit their agenda while being encouraged by their Non Muslim Friends, as what is also been happening in this thread.

The rules of Islam are clear, take it or leave it but don't try to modify it to justify your deviant lifestyle and say it's Islam.

 

[big_gamer007]

No, we have seperate rooms at the office. At home i lead the prayer for small boys(nephews) if men are not there.

My bad i should have worded it correctly. Female Imams are common for women and kids but not for grown up men.

So you are OK with this? I would like to get a women’s perspective here:

Are you ok with men being allowed to lead prayers however a woman is not allowed to lead prayer of men? Doesn’t it feel discrimination? To me as an outsider it feels discrimination if I am capable enough to do something but not allowed to do it because of my gender due to historical rituals or religious practices..

What are your views on it?

 

[Madplayer]

Agree, many such instances of making mockery of Islam keep popping up from India, Where such Muslims receive applause from their Non-Muslim Countrymen Cheerleaders for reforming Islam

Just last week I read a report about an India Muslim Gay Man coming out of closet who maintains that he is a strong believer inspite of his preference and how Islam support homosexuality. Only a matter of time before such people start twisting Islam to suit their agenda while being encouraged by their Non Muslim Friends, as what is also been happening in this thread.

The rules of Islam are clear, take it or leave it but don't try to modify it to justify your deviant lifestyle and say it's Islam.

Eaxctly. We should admit that there are a lot of things in Islam where there is scope for debate and interpretation. But some things like who should be imam and whether homosesuality is allowed arent even debatable, its plain black and white.

Some people say its discrimination, it is not. Its just a system and a way of life. We have to look at it as a complete system. When things are looked at in Islolation or when one particular thing is picked and put into a completely different system and then judged, it would obviously not look very pleasing.