Five greatest all-rounders of all time!

[Robert]

It was a fluke WC win for Imran not for DEV, but Imran is better than Dev no one would argue it. However stats vs the WI for Imran and Dev are neck and neck, that's the main factor imo....

You need a bit of luck in big tournaments, though.

In 1992 Imran enjoyed luck in that the game where Pakistan were bowled out for 70 by England was rained off. England would have coasted to a win and Pakistan would have been out.

On the other hand, after the 70 all out match Pakistan started playing very good cricket and beat everybody. And they did it all without Waqar.

In 1983 India beat WI twice so not really a fluke. England of course in the semifinals were missing several banned players - no Gooch, Willey, Lever, Old and Emburey.

 

[Romali_rotti]

You need a bit of luck in big tournaments, though.

In 1992 Imran enjoyed luck in that the game where Pakistan were bowled out for 70 by England was rained off. England would have coasted to a win and Pakistan would have been out.

On the other hand, after the 70 all out match Pakistan started playing very good cricket and beat everybody. And they did it all without Waqar.

In 1983 India beat WI twice so not really a fluke. England of course in the semifinals were missing several banned players - no Gooch, Willey, Lever, Old and Emburey.

Agreed..

My whole point was Imran was not an impact player in the 92 WC campaign compared to Dev's heriocs in the 83 WC. All Imran did was a cornered tiger speech, more importantly he had that rain come at the exact right time otherwise, he would have been in DEV's shadow forever...

 

[RainMan_]

Again, how did Sakib become relevant again? As i said previously, your players are invalid

Do I really need to spell it out to u? This thread is about great allrounders and Shakib is the second Greatest allrounder to come out of Asia in the history of cricket. That's how he became relevant.

What u say based on ur feelz means little to nothing in a fact based argument. A slogger with a batting average of 19 away from home can be considered as an ATG by the Indians since they have produced zero allrounders in their 100 years of cricket history, but to the rest of the world he was a decent bower who could slog a bit.

Just because Indian media blabbers about him being one of the greatest allrounders of all time doesn't necessarily mean rest of the world believe that nonsense. His stats clearly suggest that he was not even an atg allrounder in the tests leave alone one of the greatest allrounders of all time.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Do I really need to spell it out to u? This thread is about great allrounders and Shakib is the second Greatest allrounder to come out of Asia in the history of cricket. That's how he became relevant.

What u say based on ur feelz means little to nothing in a fact based argument. A slogger with a batting average of 19 away from home can be considered as an ATG by the Indians since they have produced zero allrounders in their 100 years of cricket history, but to the rest of the world he was a decent bower who could slog a bit.

Just because Indian media blabbers about him being one of the greatest allrounders of all time doesn't necessarily mean rest of the world believe that nonsense. His stats clearly suggest that he was not even an atg allrounder in the tests leave alone one of the greatest allrounders of all time.

Dont mind me, sorry I am barely reading your posts. Bangla cricket is nothing more than a comic relief for me, unfortunately you guys are just a nobody....

 

[Hitman]

Do I really need to spell it out to u? This thread is about great allrounders and Shakib is the second Greatest allrounder to come out of Asia in the history of cricket. That's how he became relevant.

What u say based on ur feelz means little to nothing in a fact based argument. A slogger with a batting average of 19 away from home can be considered as an ATG by the Indians since they have produced zero allrounders in their 100 years of cricket history, but to the rest of the world he was a decent bower who could slog a bit.

Just because Indian media blabbers about him being one of the greatest allrounders of all time doesn't necessarily mean rest of the world believe that nonsense. His stats clearly suggest that he was not even an atg allrounder in the tests leave alone one of the greatest allrounders of all time.

The rest of the world believes what? You want a taste of that? Here it is -

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...-of-Cricket-Top-25-Cricketers-Of-All-Time[/I]

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...ower-s-50-Greatest-Cricketers-of-All-Time[/I]

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...cketers-by-Benedict-Bermange-(Sky-Sports)[/I]

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...e-100-Greatest-Cricketers-Geoff-Armstrong[/I]

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...er-Martin-Jenkins-100-greatest-cricketers[/I]


Kindly search for Shakib's name, I can't find it anywhere in any of those lists.

 

[Hitman]

The rest of the world believes what? You want a taste of that? Here it is -

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...-of-Cricket-Top-25-Cricketers-Of-All-Time[/I]

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...ower-s-50-Greatest-Cricketers-of-All-Time[/I]

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...cketers-by-Benedict-Bermange-(Sky-Sports)[/I]

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...e-100-Greatest-Cricketers-Geoff-Armstrong[/I]

[I]http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforu...er-Martin-Jenkins-100-greatest-cricketers[/I]


Kindly search for Shakib's name, I can't find it anywhere in any of those lists.

Sorry, here are the links -

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...topher-Martin-Jenkins-100-greatest-cricketers

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ends-of-Cricket-Top-25-Cricketers-Of-All-Time

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-Cricketers-by-Benedict-Bermange-(Sky-Sports)

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...id-Gower-s-50-Greatest-Cricketers-of-All-Time

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?185143-The-100-Greatest-Cricketers-Geoff-Armstrong

 

[AFM]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EJfzD6YSnS8

 

[Junaids]

Agreed..

My whole point was Imran was not an impact player in the 92 WC campaign compared to Dev's heriocs in the 83 WC. All Imran did was a cornered tiger speech, more importantly he had that rain come at the exact right time otherwise, he would have been in DEV's shadow forever...

Actually Kapil Dev's performance in 1983 was a lot like Imran Khan's in 1992.

His huge innings against Zimbabwe was against a team which was still 9 years away from Test status. It's comparable to scoring 175 against Ireland or Scotland.

As a bowler, Kapil Dev was really good from 1978 to 1981. He was bowling around 135K, which made him India's fastest ever bowler up to that time, and he had lovely late swing.

But by 1983 Kapil Dev had been bowled into the ground and had already become a Philander style 125K bowler.

That worked to a point in England at the World Cup. It was a Spring World Cup on damp, soggy wickets, which is why India's army of medium pacers - Kapil Dev, Madan Lal, ** Sandhu, Roger Binny and Mohinder Amarnath - were all capable of taking 12-3-30-2 in any given match.

But nobody would really say that Kapil Dev was outstanding - he was outbowled by Roger Binny!

He was operating at the same military medium pace that Imran Khan was reduced to by about 1991.

 

[Hasan123]

In no particular order

Khan
Bottham
Kallis
Sobers
Miller

 

[Hitman]

In no particular order

Khan
Bottham
Kallis
Sobers
Miller

Pretty sure most sensible people will agree with your picks.

 

[Romali_rotti]

But nobody would really say that Kapil Dev was outstanding - he was outbowled by Roger Binny!

.

Stats vs WI in test is all you need to go by, you show up vs the best you are above outstanding, you are a legend....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Actually Kapil Dev's performance in 1983 was a lot like Imran Khan's in 1992.

His huge innings against Zimbabwe was against a team which was still 9 years away from Test status. It's comparable to scoring 175 against Ireland or Scotland.

Not quite, that ZIM side although was not great was good enough, they beat Australia in that tourney.... And any 23 year old kid who also happened to be a captain walks in a 5-15, scores 175 and also grabs a 3for to secure the win is beyond legendary. Sorry Imran could not hold a candle to that in any of his WC performances, all Imran did was a cornered tiger speech, Wasim was the real hero of the 92 WC tourney..

 

[bujhee kom]

Other teams are secondary, all that matters is what you do vs the best. This is the reason why players like Inzi & Mohd Yousuf etc will always be considered second tier batsmen outside of Pakistan..... AT XIs ? oh who cares about some random guys figment of imagination lol .. A young up & coming Kapil Dev would easily make it to the AUS & RSA side of any era, obviously he would not make it into the old WI side of the 80s as that team was invincible and there is no place for him on a team with no weakness. ENG would pick DEV instantly if they wanted a player who would show up vs the best otherwise they would keep Botham to show up against all the secondary teams. As for Pakistan, there is already an all rounder in Imran Khan so naturally he would not make it.

Have Miller and Kallis been uncreated or something in this world you inhabit?

 

[MMHS]

1. Sobers (Romantic choice)
2. Imran
3. RK Miller
4. Botham
5. Shakib (Emotional choice)

If there is a back-up allowed, I'll pick Kallis as #6

 

[bujhee kom]

Also how did this thread switch to ODI cricket?
In proper cricket (Tests), Sobers, Imran and Miller are on another level to any other ARs.

 

[Proactive_]

Some pretty dreadful posts from both sides here.

Shakib is an incredible all rounder and deserves his due praise. No question about it.

Also, Kapil's stats don't do him justice. He's the most revolutionary player in Indian cricket history, India's biggest match winner and best Indian fast bowler ever who bowled his entire career with close to 0 support from the other end. Bowling 30 over spells on dead tracks against the great WI to take 9 wickets in an innings, bowling with an injury to take India to victory in Melbourne 1981, chief architect of India's series win over Pakistan in 78, captaining India to WC glory, great performer at WCC 1985 among various other instances of him basically carrying India to highly respectable results.

I was checking the historical ICC rankings and these are Kapil's standings on Jan 1st of every year from 1980 onwards (in Tests):

1980 - Bowling: 2 Batting: 47
1981 - Bowling: 3 Batting: 29
1982 - Bowling: 8 Batting: 32
1983 - Bowling: 11 Batting: 25
1984 - Bowling: 3 Batting: 38
1985 - Bowling: 7 Batting: 44
1986- Bowling: 6 Batting: 40
1987 - Bowling: 6 Batting: 31
1988- Bowling: 6 Batting: 30
1989 - Bowling: 10 Batting: 21
1990- Bowling: 5 Batting: 31
1991 - Bowling: 11 Batting:32
1992- Bowling: 9 Batting: 32
1993- Bowling: 8 Batting: 29
1994 - Bowling: 8 Batting: 39


Kapil was a genuine Top 10 ranked Test bowler for a decade and a half, along with being one of India's first proper lower middle order batsmen who could take the attack to the opposition and score hundreds coming in at No.7/8. That's incredible. Not to mention, at some stages of his career he was the highest ranked Indian ODI bowler AND ODI batsman. That's a feat very very few (and I'm not even sure if there have been any others) been able to achieve. He was the glue that held the Indian ODI team together in the 80s, a decade in which they had incredible success in limited overs cricket. India's ODI team without him would have been half as good as it was.

Kapil Dev is one of the greatest cricketers of all time. Judging him solely by his stats would be as blasphemous as comparing Viv Richards and Thilan Samaraweera based on their similar Test averages . Kapil's one of the most impactful players in cricketing history and deserves his place in the top echelon of cricketing greats.

 

[Last Monetarist]

1. Sobers
2. Imran
3. Botham
4. Kapil
5. Kallis

 

[happydavy]

Everyone will have their biases based upon nationalities and that's perfectly fine. For me as an Indian, I won't trade Kapil Dev for anyone in this world including Sobers.

No cricketer brought the kind of revolution that Kapil paaji brought to Indian cricket. The fact that a 24 yrs old from a village in Haryana did the unthinkable and won India the world cup made him a forever legend. Many people have no clue how that changed the dynamics of India and world cricket all together.

- India had won only one match in the two preceding world cup, and that against lowly East Africa.

- India were rank outsiders to win the tournament, bookmakers odds on India winning the cup were 66-1. Even Bdesh gets better odds than that today.

- On the eve of final match, color TVs were being sold in India at 200-300% premium to MRP.

- When India won the WC, bcci was broke, it didn't have any money to reward the team. Filmstars and singers did a fund raising show so that each player could be awarded Rs. 1 lac each.

- for the first time, big Indian companies got involved in world cup sponsorship and ensured that following world cup was moved out of England and played in Asia. Reliance Industries was the sponsor of 1987 world cup.

I dare say no cricketer has ever turned the dynamics of a game upside down as brutely as Kapil Dev did. He will always be remembered as the legend who changed Indian cricket, and world cricket to an extent.

Yes, Sobers, Kallis, Imran etc may have better stats but none had the impact on game dynamics and a nation as deep as Kapil had.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Have Miller and Kallis been uncreated or something in this world you inhabit?

lol Had Dev walked into the side which Miller was playing in, he would smoke those non athletic mediocre bowlers of that era that they would die of a seizure or heart attack, his bowling would be a level higher playing those batsmen from that era... Just use your Brain, imagine the damage DEV can do to teams in Miller's era, if he can club the WI great bowlers all over the park, you are one funny Pakistani ....

Now as for SA, he would make it in easy, as SA has a history of picking multiple all rounders in their side, ala Hansie Cronje, Brian McMillan who are not even half of what Dev was... Now off you go and think of some other excuses ....

 

[Romali_rotti]

Everyone will have their biases based upon nationalities and that's perfectly fine. For me as an Indian, I won't trade Kapil Dev for anyone in this world including Sobers.

No cricketer brought the kind of revolution that Kapil paaji brought to Indian cricket. The fact that a 24 yrs old from a village in Haryana did the unthinkable and won India the world cup made him a forever legend. Many people have no clue how that changed the dynamics of India and world cricket all together.

- India had won only one match in the two preceding world cup, and that against lowly East Africa.

- India were rank outsiders to win the tournament, bookmakers odds on India winning the cup were 66-1. Even Bdesh gets better odds than that today.

- On the eve of final match, color TVs were being sold in India at 200-300% premium to MRP.

- When India won the WC, bcci was broke, it didn't have any money to reward the team. Filmstars and singers did a fund raising show so that each player could be awarded Rs. 1 lac each.

- for the first time, big Indian companies got involved in world cup sponsorship and ensured that following world cup was moved out of England and played in Asia. Reliance Industries was the sponsor of 1987 world cup.

I dare say no cricketer has ever turned the dynamics of a game upside down as brutely as Kapil Dev did. He will always be remembered as the legend who changed Indian cricket, and world cricket to an extent.

Yes, Sobers, Kallis, Imran etc may have better stats but none had the impact on game dynamics and a nation as deep as Kapil had.

Well said..... Dev single handedly put Asian cricket on the MAP.....

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Yes, Sobers, Kallis, Imran etc may have better stats but none had the impact on game dynamics and a nation as deep as Kapil had.

Imran is the PM of Pakistan, he has more influence on his nation than any Kapil and Sachin put together infinitely.

 

[ind_win]

Some pretty dreadful posts from both sides here.

Shakib is an incredible all rounder and deserves his due praise. No question about it.

Also, Kapil's stats don't do him justice. He's the most revolutionary player in Indian cricket history, India's biggest match winner and best Indian fast bowler ever who bowled his entire career with close to 0 support from the other end. Bowling 30 over spells on dead tracks against the great WI to take 9 wickets in an innings, bowling with an injury to take India to victory in Melbourne 1981, chief architect of India's series win over Pakistan in 78, captaining India to WC glory, great performer at WCC 1985 among various other instances of him basically carrying India to highly respectable results.

I was checking the historical ICC rankings and these are Kapil's standings on Jan 1st of every year from 1980 onwards (in Tests):

1980 - Bowling: 2 Batting: 47
1981 - Bowling: 3 Batting: 29
1982 - Bowling: 8 Batting: 32
1983 - Bowling: 11 Batting: 25
1984 - Bowling: 3 Batting: 38
1985 - Bowling: 7 Batting: 44
1986- Bowling: 6 Batting: 40
1987 - Bowling: 6 Batting: 31
1988- Bowling: 6 Batting: 30
1989 - Bowling: 10 Batting: 21
1990- Bowling: 5 Batting: 31
1991 - Bowling: 11 Batting:32
1992- Bowling: 9 Batting: 32
1993- Bowling: 8 Batting: 29
1994 - Bowling: 8 Batting: 39


Kapil was a genuine Top 10 ranked Test bowler for a decade and a half, along with being one of India's first proper lower middle order batsmen who could take the attack to the opposition and score hundreds coming in at No.7/8. That's incredible. Not to mention, at some stages of his career he was the highest ranked Indian ODI bowler AND ODI batsman. That's a feat very very few (and I'm not even sure if there have been any others) been able to achieve. He was the glue that held the Indian ODI team together in the 80s, a decade in which they had incredible success in limited overs cricket. India's ODI team without him would have been half as good as it was.

Kapil Dev is one of the greatest cricketers of all time. Judging him solely by his stats would be as blasphemous as comparing Viv Richards and Thilan Samaraweera based on their similar Test averages . Kapil's one of the most impactful players in cricketing history and deserves his place in the top echelon of cricketing greats.

First time on this forum I found someone respecting kapil and giving a fitting tribute to the efforts.

People talk about sachin, gavaskar, kohli being great- I do not have issues with that.

But not giving respect to kapil whose wc victory confirmed cricket as#1 sport in India is really pathetic. Bowling without results, givinh 100%_each ball, going on and on with little support, playing non-stop for 15 years, how many can do that.

Also, credit is due for dravid, kumble who have been India's greatest test match winners in my opinion.

 

[happydavy]

Imran is the PM of Pakistan, he has more influence on his nation than any Kapil and Sachin put together infinitely.

30 years after leaving cricket? Sure, you can have that. I am sure until Imran became PM few months back, you though Ranatunga had more influence on his nation than Imran and entire Pakistan team combined infinitely, as he was a tourism minister in the government. Each for his own.

 

[ind_win]

Everyone will have their biases based upon nationalities and that's perfectly fine. For me as an Indian, I won't trade Kapil Dev for anyone in this world including Sobers.

No cricketer brought the kind of revolution that Kapil paaji brought to Indian cricket. The fact that a 24 yrs old from a village in Haryana did the unthinkable and won India the world cup made him a forever legend. Many people have no clue how that changed the dynamics of India and world cricket all together.

- India had won only one match in the two preceding world cup, and that against lowly East Africa.

- India were rank outsiders to win the tournament, bookmakers odds on India winning the cup were 66-1. Even Bdesh gets better odds than that today.

- On the eve of final match, color TVs were being sold in India at 200-300% premium to MRP.

- When India won the WC, bcci was broke, it didn't have any money to reward the team. Filmstars and singers did a fund raising show so that each player could be awarded Rs. 1 lac each.

- for the first time, big Indian companies got involved in world cup sponsorship and ensured that following world cup was moved out of England and played in Asia. Reliance Industries was the sponsor of 1987 world cup.

I dare say no cricketer has ever turned the dynamics of a game upside down as brutely as Kapil Dev did. He will always be remembered as the legend who changed Indian cricket, and world cricket to an extent.

Yes, Sobers, Kallis, Imran etc may have better stats but none had the impact on game dynamics and a nation as deep as Kapil had.

Missed this post earlier. Again a good tribute to the great cricketer kapil.
Good one......

 

[topspin]

Everyone will have their biases based upon nationalities and that's perfectly fine. For me as an Indian, I won't trade Kapil Dev for anyone in this world including Sobers.

No cricketer brought the kind of revolution that Kapil paaji brought to Indian cricket. The fact that a 24 yrs old from a village in Haryana did the unthinkable and won India the world cup made him a forever legend. Many people have no clue how that changed the dynamics of India and world cricket all together.

- India had won only one match in the two preceding world cup, and that against lowly East Africa.

- India were rank outsiders to win the tournament, bookmakers odds on India winning the cup were 66-1. Even Bdesh gets better odds than that today.

- On the eve of final match, color TVs were being sold in India at 200-300% premium to MRP.

- When India won the WC, bcci was broke, it didn't have any money to reward the team. Filmstars and singers did a fund raising show so that each player could be awarded Rs. 1 lac each.

- for the first time, big Indian companies got involved in world cup sponsorship and ensured that following world cup was moved out of England and played in Asia. Reliance Industries was the sponsor of 1987 world cup.

I dare say no cricketer has ever turned the dynamics of a game upside down as brutely as Kapil Dev did. He will always be remembered as the legend who changed Indian cricket, and world cricket to an extent.

Yes, Sobers, Kallis, Imran etc may have better stats but none had the impact on game dynamics and a nation as deep as Kapil had.

POTW - even though I rate Sobers and Imran higher. Kapil Dev is underappreciated on here. I kindly request admin to address this balance and give the credit to Happydavy for his tribute.

If he was a Pakistani we wouldn't be seeing him get slagged off on here from the usual hype brigade's anti Indian bias.

It is disrespectful towards the ATG Indian cricketer for him to be mentioned in the same sentence as Shakib, but also remember one of the posters blowing this trumpet also picked a current Pakistan XI with Junaid instead of Shaheen - one with such view doesn't deserve an opinion on cricket.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

With a gun on my head apart for Gary Sobers unanimously at no 1.

I. Sobers
2.Miller
3.Imran
4.Botham
5.Kallis

 

[RainMan_]

I can see that ppl r getting quite emotional here and making all sorts of irrelevant points. Has India managed to produce any other allrounder of Kapil's caliber as of yet? No they haven't. Did Kapil play a key role in popularising cricket in India? Sure he did.

But that's not we r talking avout her, Isn't it? I m sure tennis player "leander peas" is a bigger role model to the indians than let's say "Fernando verdasco" is to the Spanish people since Spain already has some of the greatest tennis players of all time that Spanish ppl can look upto.

But does that change the fact that even though leader peas has revolutionised tennis in India and a role model of millions, he's still not fit enough to tie the shoe leases of player of verdasco's caliber? Similarly, Ashraful has played a bigger role in revolutionising cricket in Bangladesh than let's say Dhawan has done for India. Does that mean he's a better batsman than Dhawan? Of course not.

Point is, Kapil was a decent enough bowler who could slog a bit. His inability as a batsman gets more evident if we see his away batting average in ODIs. Well ppl might say that batting was more difficult in that era. OK, if u accept the fact that bowling was much easier in that period then look at his bowling average in tests in bowling friendly wickets of "SENA" countries. Its almost 34 or something.

Just imagine what would've happened to that bowling average oh he had to bowl on today's flat decks. He couldn't bat in tests, he bowl in tests, he hasn't scored a single double ton after playing 140 tears but he's still one of the greatest allrounders of all time. What sort of logic is this?

Kapil's poor record with both bat and ball in tests in almost everywhere he played clearly suggests that he's inferior to other great allrounders like sobers, kallis, shakib, Imran etc. Is he still the best Indian allrounder? Sure he is. But compared to other great allrounders from all the other countries he's almost a nobody in tests.

My list of great allrounders

Top tier (in no particular order)
1. Sobers
2. Kallis
3. Shakib
4. Imran
5. Botham
6. Miller

Bottom tier(in no particular order)
1. Chris cairns
2. Abdul Razzak
3. Kapil Dev
4. Wasim Akram
5. Pollack
6. Flintoff

 

[Hitman]

I can see that ppl r getting quite emotional here and making all sorts of irrelevant points. Has India managed to produce any other allrounder of Kapil's caliber as of yet? No they haven't. Did Kapil play a key role in popularising cricket in India? Sure he did.

But that's not we r talking avout her, Isn't it? I m sure tennis player "leander peas" is a bigger role model to the indians than let's say "Fernando verdasco" is to the Spanish people since Spain already has some of the greatest tennis players of all time that Spanish ppl can look upto.

But does that change the fact that even though leader peas has revolutionised tennis in India and a role model of millions, he's still not fit enough to tie the shoe leases of player of verdasco's caliber? Similarly, Ashraful has played a bigger role in revolutionising cricket in Bangladesh than let's say Dhawan has done for India. Does that mean he's a better batsman than Dhawan? Of course not.

Point is, Kapil was a decent enough bowler who could slog a bit. His inability as a batsman gets more evident if we see his away batting average in ODIs. Well ppl might say that batting was more difficult in that era. OK, if u accept the fact that bowling was much easier in that period then look at his bowling average in tests in bowling friendly wickets of "SENA" countries. Its almost 34 or something.

Just imagine what would've happened to that bowling average oh he had to bowl on today's flat decks. He couldn't bat in tests, he bowl in tests, he hasn't scored a single double ton after playing 140 tears but he's still one of the greatest allrounders of all time. What sort of logic is this?

Kapil's poor record with both bat and ball in tests in almost everywhere he played clearly suggests that he's inferior to other great allrounders like sobers, kallis, shakib, Imran etc. Is he still the best Indian allrounder? Sure he is. But compared to other great allrounders from all the other countries he's almost a nobody in tests.

My list of great allrounders

Top tier (in no particular order)
1. Sobers
2. Kallis
3. Shakib
4. Imran
5. Botham
6. Miller

Bottom tier(in no particular order)
1. Chris cairns
2. Abdul Razzak
3. Kapil Dev
4. Wasim Akram
5. Pollack
6. Flintoff

No, that's not the point. Here is what you said -

Just because Indian media blabbers about him being one of the greatest allrounders of all time doesn't necessarily mean rest of the world believe that nonsense. His stats clearly suggest that he was not even an atg allrounder in the tests leave alone one of the greatest allrounders of all time.

I quoted the rubbish you spouted. You want to know what the rest of the world believe? Here's a taste of it -

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...topher-Martin-Jenkins-100-greatest-cricketers

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ends-of-Cricket-Top-25-Cricketers-Of-All-Time

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-Cricketers-by-Benedict-Bermange-(Sky-Sports)

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...id-Gower-s-50-Greatest-Cricketers-of-All-Time

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?185143-The-100-Greatest-Cricketers-Geoff-Armstrong


Go through all those 5 lists. None of them were prepared by Indians. We can see Kapil Dev in every one of them. Except that we can't see the same of a certain wannabe in anyone of them. Now please don't try to shift goal posts. You spoke of what the world believes, and I presented it to you right in front of you.

 

[Bilal7]

Agreed..

My whole point was Imran was not an impact player in the 92 WC campaign compared to Dev's heriocs in the 83 WC. All Imran did was a cornered tiger speech, more importantly he had that rain come at the exact right time otherwise, he would have been in DEV's shadow forever...

He played a match-winning innings in the final of the '92 WC, something Sachin could not do in two tries. What was Kapil's contribution in the final versus the Windies? Oh yes, 15 runs and one wicket.

 

[Romali_rotti]

He played a match-winning innings in the final of the '92 WC, something Sachin could not do in two tries. What was Kapil's contribution in the final versus the Windies? Oh yes, 15 runs and one wicket.

But Amla is better than all the guys mentioned by OP though.

 

[Romali_rotti]

No, that's not the point. Here is what you said -




I quoted the rubbish you spouted. You want to know what the rest of the world believe? Here's a taste of it -

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...topher-Martin-Jenkins-100-greatest-cricketers

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ends-of-Cricket-Top-25-Cricketers-Of-All-Time

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...-Cricketers-by-Benedict-Bermange-(Sky-Sports)

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...id-Gower-s-50-Greatest-Cricketers-of-All-Time

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?185143-The-100-Greatest-Cricketers-Geoff-Armstrong


Go through all those 5 lists. None of them were prepared by Indians. We can see Kapil Dev in every one of them. Except that we can't see the same of a certain wannabe in anyone of them. Now please don't try to shift goal posts. You spoke of what the world believes, and I presented it to you right in front of you.

I keep forgetting who is Sakib Al Hasan again ? lol

 

[Tusker]

Some pretty dreadful posts from both sides here.

Can't be any more dreadful than some of your pathetic posts you constantly make to run down Kohli and SRT. I mean here you are using ICC rankings to justify Kapil .. do the same exercise for Kohli and see where you will find him right now. I will save you the trouble - just 26 points behind Bradman

You really like self-ownage... dont you?

 

[rhony]

LOL at Shakib being in the discussion. Anyway, based on stats, there is no greater player (not just allrounder) than Kallis.

13k runs and close to 300 wickets in tests
11k runs and 275 wickets in ODIs.

 

[rhony]

.

This is like saying Ryan Ten Deschoate is better than Kallis in ODIs because he has a batting average of 67 and a bwling avg of 24.

 

[saeed5646]

Current ranking of top five All-rounders in odis)


1 ( - ) Rashid Khan Afg 353*/ 359 v Pak at Abu Dhabi 2018

2 ( - ) Shakib Al Hasan Ban 352 453 v Zim at Chittagong 2009

3 ( - ) Mohammad Nabi Afg 337 349 v Ire at Greater Noida 2017

4 ( - ) Mohammad Hafeez Pak 296 437 v Ind at Kolkata 2013

5 (+1) M. Ali Eng 289 306 v Aus at Old Trafford 2018

 

[jeetu]

1. Sobers (Best batting AR)
2 Imran (Best bowling AR)
3 Kallis (2nd best batting AR)
4 Miller (2nd best bowling AR)
5 Botham (Best peak AR)

 

[big_gamer007]

Sobers
IK
Kapil
Botham
Hadlee


5 greatest all rounders for their contribution to the game..

 

[Nadeem98]

With all rounders, it's very simple. Just ask yourself
If the player can play as just a batsman or a bowler in a good international side. Looking at the records, based on this criterion, I would say:

1. Imran
2.Miller
3.Pollock
4. Kallis
5 Shakib

The list above us based on expertise in oyh disciplines backed by performance over time.

However, we can do a subsidiary list based on the most outrageously gifted allrounders too:

1. Sobers
2. Botham
3. Akram
4. Flintoff
5. Stokes/ Dev

I took the 2 lists definitively tell us that hard work beats talent hands down every time.

 

[Ahmed4472]

Surprised to see nobody mentioned Mohammad Hafeez’s name here. Maybe this list is for lowly mortal earthians.

Who can forget Hafeez bhai’s masterclass in 2016 tour of Eng.

 

[Ab Fan]

IMO, it should be:-

Sobers
Imran
Miller
Kallis
Botham
Hadlee
Kapil
Stokes

 

[HappyWarsFan]

Mohammad Hafeez is one of them. Look at his beautiful 224 vs Bangladesh in 2015 - that will show you what class he is.

 

[Sidilicious]

Test Cricket
1. Sobers
2. Miller
3. Imran
4. Botham
5. Dev

ODI
1. Kapil
2. Imran
3. Shakib
4. Klusener
5. Watson

ODI one was more difficult. I really wanted to add Afridi, Razzler, Jayasuriya and Kallis

 

[Abdullah719]

Sachin Tendulkar reveals his list of top five-allrounders

India cricket legend Sachin Tendulkar, who celebrated his 47th birthday, on Saturday gave a list of his top five-allrounders. While Tendulkar mentioned India’s World Cup-winning captain Kapil Dev in the list, he also included Pakistan’s 1992 World Cup-winning captain Imran Khan in the list as well. Speaking on Star Sports’ Cricket Connected show, the former right-handed batsman said: “I grew up watching the top five all-rounders of the world. I played with one of them which is Kapil Dev. Second would be when I had gone on to my first tour to Pakistan and played against Imran Khan,” he said.

“The third was playing against Sir Richard Hadlee on my second tour to New Zealand. Then in Australia I played against Malcom Marshall and Ian Botham,” he further added.

“So, these are my top five all-rounders whom I grew up watching play and later, had the opportunity to play against them,” he further said.

Meanwhile, Tendulkar’s memorable ‘desert storm’ century against Australia in a losing effort at Sharjah in 1998 Coca Cola Cup match was voted as his best innings in a poll conducted by International Cricket Council (ICC) on his birthday.

The Master Blaster had hammered a blistering 143 in 131 balls, with nine fours and five sixes, but he was unable to take his side to a win in a match that saw an interruption due to a sand storm in Sharjah. Tendulkar took on the likes of Shane Warne, Damien Fleming and Michael Kasprowicz but his side lost. Tendulkar’s blitz narrowly edged out his match-winning 98 against arch-rivals Pakistan in the 2003 World Cup group match.

“It was neck and neck” until the end, the ICC said in releasing the results of its poll.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...allrounders/story-I1junWR7MkOfLhbS0608IP.html

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Sachin Tendulkar reveals his list of top five-allrounders

India cricket legend Sachin Tendulkar, who celebrated his 47th birthday, on Saturday gave a list of his top five-allrounders. While Tendulkar mentioned India’s World Cup-winning captain Kapil Dev in the list, he also included Pakistan’s 1992 World Cup-winning captain Imran Khan in the list as well. Speaking on Star Sports’ Cricket Connected show, the former right-handed batsman said: “I grew up watching the top five all-rounders of the world. I played with one of them which is Kapil Dev. Second would be when I had gone on to my first tour to Pakistan and played against Imran Khan,” he said.

“The third was playing against Sir Richard Hadlee on my second tour to New Zealand. Then in Australia I played against Malcom Marshall and Ian Botham,” he further added.

“So, these are my top five all-rounders whom I grew up watching play and later, had the opportunity to play against them,” he further said.

Meanwhile, Tendulkar’s memorable ‘desert storm’ century against Australia in a losing effort at Sharjah in 1998 Coca Cola Cup match was voted as his best innings in a poll conducted by International Cricket Council (ICC) on his birthday.

The Master Blaster had hammered a blistering 143 in 131 balls, with nine fours and five sixes, but he was unable to take his side to a win in a match that saw an interruption due to a sand storm in Sharjah. Tendulkar took on the likes of Shane Warne, Damien Fleming and Michael Kasprowicz but his side lost. Tendulkar’s blitz narrowly edged out his match-winning 98 against arch-rivals Pakistan in the 2003 World Cup group match.

“It was neck and neck” until the end, the ICC said in releasing the results of its poll.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cric...allrounders/story-I1junWR7MkOfLhbS0608IP.html

Did he just call malcomm marshall an allrounder?

 

[The Viper]

Some good picks by Sachin, but Marshall is not an allrounder. More of a bowler who could bat.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Maybe SRT chose Marshall because of that one handed innings!

PS: that desert storm sums up Sachin's India of that times! One man doing all the work and others just can't close the game!

& people wonder why Inzi called out their players.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Bhaijaan's Top 5 greatest ARs ever :-

1. Kapil Dev - GOAT AR by far, also the most destructive batter among the great ARs
2. Garfield Sobers - Best specialist cricketer (batsman) among the great ARs, Greatest cricketer among the great ARs
3. Keith Miller - Most handsome great AR
4. Ian Botham - At his peak the Greatest AR ever. Bothams peak > Kapil's peak
5. Imran Khan - Third best specialist cricketer among the great ARs (after Sir Garry and Sir Richard), second most handsome AR after Keith, second best bowler among the great ARs (after Sir Richard)

 

[Robert]

Ok, 18 months later I will say

1 Sobers
2 Kallis
3 Imran
4 Miller
5 Botham or Kapil. Dunno which I think is best any more.

 

[Robert]

Did he just call malcomm marshall an allrounder?

Macro would sometimes bat at #6 for Hampshire. He had the ability to score a test century but never got the opportunity because the WI batting above him was so powerful.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Ok, 18 months later I will say

1 Sobers
2 Kallis
3 Imran
4 Miller
5 Botham or Kapil. Dunno which I think is best any more.

botham over kapil I think. Just.
hadlee? hadlee over kapil too.

hadlee or botham though?

stokes should be up there as well. stokes is dead even with kapil right now. Maybe higher. not sure. Stokes will soon overtake botham. Imran will be hard to reach at this stage.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Top 5, not including those who didn't play enough international cricket so many 70s/80s SA players not included.

Imran
Kallis
Sobers
Keith Miller
Kapil

To make it top 10 I will also include Botham, Hadlee, Benaud, Cairns, Pollock.

After a few years Shakib, Stokes and Jadeja might displace some of these greats.

 

[Ab Fan]

I expected Sachin to put Kallis in it though. He would have probably forgotten to mention his name.

 

[Robert]

botham over kapil I think. Just.
hadlee? hadlee over kapil too.

hadlee or botham though?

stokes should be up there as well. stokes is dead even with kapil right now. Maybe higher. not sure. Stokes will soon overtake botham. Imran will be hard to reach at this stage.

Hadlee would not get into the team as a batter alone. Stokes would not get in as a bowler alone. Neither is a test all rounder in the true sense.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Hadlee would not get into the team as a batter alone. Stokes would not get in as a bowler alone. Neither is a test all rounder in the true sense.

but remember stokes has not finished his career. stokes will end up with an average of 41 ish.

His bowling may be close to 30. I think that would put hjim ahead of hadlee, kapil then. Would be very close to botham's level.

 

[Robert]

but remember stokes has not finished his career. stokes will end up with an average of 41 ish.

His bowling may be close to 30. I think that would put hjim ahead of hadlee, kapil then. Would be very close to botham's level.

Botham took 27 fivefers and four tenfers IIRC. He scored a century and took a fivefer in the same match four times. This despite playing much of his cricket in a better bowling side than Stokes.

Stokes just doesn’t have that kind of wicket taking ability. He takes about two wickets per test. Botham and Kapil took closer to four, and I think Stokes’ bowling will decline from now on as he takes more batting responsibility.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

1. Kallis
2. Gilchrist
3. Sobers
4. Imran khan
5. Hadlee

 

[shamaan]

Imran
Sobers
Kallis Hadley
Kapil
Miller

 

[tyron_woodley]

Bhaijaan's Top 5 greatest ARs ever :-

1. Kapil Dev - GOAT AR by far, also the most destructive batter among the great ARs
2. Garfield Sobers - Best specialist cricketer (batsman) among the great ARs, Greatest cricketer among the great ARs
3. Keith Miller - Most handsome great AR
4. Ian Botham - At his peak the Greatest AR ever. Bothams peak > Kapil's peak
5. Imran Khan - Third best specialist cricketer among the great ARs (after Sir Garry and Sir Richard), second most handsome AR after Keith, second best bowler among the great ARs (after Sir Richard)

how is kapil number 1 ? and what the hell is imran or miller being handsome have anything to do with their ability lol.

 

[therealAB]

Dev shouldn't make this list, in a 2nd tier with Faulkner, Stokes (at the moment, could move up) etc

I don't consider Hadlee an allrounder, but in a class with Warne, Marshall, Wasim etc

Proctor very close to 5. If he had played a full test career could be near the top of this list

1. Sobers:
No argument, considered the greatest by all experts
2. Imran:
ATG bowler and good batter. Closest to Sobers, but his bowling slightly worse than Sobers' batting. Had a godly peak
3. Kallis:
Similar stats to Sobers, but lacking the x-factor. Very reliable player with batting stats superior to Sachin and bowling stats similar to Zaheer Khan
4. Miller:
Very balanced all rounder. Slightly worse bowler than Imran due to his low WPM caused by injuries. No excuses though. Better batsman that Imran, whose average slightly flatters him
5. Botham:
Peak up there with anyone, but played on for too long. If he retired around 85' could be considered up there with Sobers. No one was as good with the bat and the ball at the same time

 

[therealAB]

Agreed..

My whole point was Imran was not an impact player in the 92 WC campaign compared to Dev's heriocs in the 83 WC. All Imran did was a cornered tiger speech, more importantly he had that rain come at the exact right time otherwise, he would have been in DEV's shadow forever...

Imran's legacy and status with being better than Dev has very little to do with his WC win. Just a vastly greater player

 

[Ab Fan]

Dev shouldn't make this list, in a 2nd tier with Faulkner, Stokes (at the moment, could move up) etc

I don't consider Hadlee an allrounder, but in a class with Warne, Marshall, Wasim etc

Proctor very close to 5. If he had played a full test career could be near the top of this list

1. Sobers:
No argument, considered the greatest by all experts
2. Imran:
ATG bowler and good batter. Closest to Sobers, but his bowling slightly worse than Sobers' batting. Had a godly peak
3. Kallis:
Similar stats to Sobers, but lacking the x-factor. Very reliable player with batting stats superior to Sachin and bowling stats similar to Zaheer Khan
4. Miller:
Very balanced all rounder. Slightly worse bowler than Imran due to his low WPM caused by injuries. No excuses though. Better batsman that Imran, whose average slightly flatters him
5. Botham:
Peak up there with anyone, but played on for too long. If he retired around 85' could be considered up there with Sobers. No one was as good with the bat and the ball at the same time

Dev was leagues superior to Faulkner,Cairns and Stokes and in same league as Botham.

Just looking at averages means nothing. Dev has more runs and more wickets than any other all- rounder of that era and his performance against the Windies is best among all the 80s all-rounder. If you have Botham in it, you should add Kapil also.He was as good a bowler as Botham, slightly inferior as batsmen but captained his team to a World Cup win and was an ATG ODI all-rounder.

 

[Robert]

Dev was leagues superior to Faulkner,Cairns and Stokes and in same league as Botham.

Just looking at averages means nothing. Dev has more runs and more wickets than any other all- rounder of that era and his performance against the Windies is best among all the 80s all-rounder. If you have Botham in it, you should add Kapil also.He was as good a bowler as Botham, slightly inferior as batsmen but captained his team to a World Cup win and was an ATG ODI all-rounder.

Yep, Kapil’s bowling record in WI and Australia impresses (though not in England for some reason) and he hit two centuries against WI.

If anything he was too attacking with the bat. Botham scored at a rate of 60 / 100 which is comparable to his great friend Richards and still good today, but Kapil scored at 80 / 100 which is unheard of even now. Had he slowed down a bit he would have fifteen test hundreds instead of just eight.

 

[therealAB]

Dev was leagues superior to Faulkner,Cairns and Stokes and in same league as Botham.

Just looking at averages means nothing. Dev has more runs and more wickets than any other all- rounder of that era and his performance against the Windies is best among all the 80s all-rounder. If you have Botham in it, you should add Kapil also.He was as good a bowler as Botham, slightly inferior as batsmen but captained his team to a World Cup win and was an ATG ODI all-rounder.

Most of Dav's allure was that he was the first world class indian fast bowler. His batting average was slightly less than Botham's, but Botham, scored 6 more hundreds from 30 less tests. As a bowler he had a worse average, lower wickets/match and he has fewer five and ten wicket hauls. Some may attribute this to playing in India, but Botham averaged less than Kapil in India including 13 wickets in one test in Mumbai. Botham also scored a hundred in this test, one of five times he scored a hundred and took a five wicket haul in a test. The next best is twice. Kapil never did this. This was Botham's strength; no player in history was able to combine batting and bowling at the same time like he did.

Faulkner has a significant better batting, bowling average and Stokes during his brief career has been significantly more consistent than Dev while being as brilliant and capable of great performances

 

[Ab Fan]

Most of Dav's allure was that he was the first world class indian fast bowler. His batting average was slightly less than Botham's, but Botham, scored 6 more hundreds from 30 less tests. As a bowler he had a worse average, lower wickets/match and he has fewer five and ten wicket hauls. Some may attribute this to playing in India, but Botham averaged less than Kapil in India including 13 wickets in one test in Mumbai. Botham also scored a hundred in this test, one of five times he scored a hundred and took a five wicket haul in a test. The next best is twice. Kapil never did this. This was Botham's strength; no player in history was able to combine batting and bowling at the same time like he did.

Faulkner has a significant better batting, bowling average and Stokes during his brief career has been significantly more consistent than Dev while being as brilliant and capable of great performances

Peak Botham was simply phenomenal but the fact that he didn't do well vs the best side of that era and arguably the greatest test team of all-time while Kapil stood up against them better than Hadlee, Imran and Botham certainly qualifies him as an ATG all-rounder. Kapil underachieved with his batting because he was the sole great bowler India had and he had to bowl a lot of overs. But he still had huge impact with the bat.

Remember, Botham had Willis on his side, Kapil didn't had anyone(actually we had Bedi and Chandra before Kapil and Kumble after him but unfortunately during that time period only, there was not even one world class spinner to support him, so technically that was the weakest India were at home conditions).

There is no point discussing on Faulkner because neither have I followed him as much nor do you except their statistics for that era. Stokes has potential and I am a huge fan of him but unless he hits genuine peak with both bat and bowl, he will probably end up a level below Botham and Kapil.

 

[tyron_woodley]

botham ahead of kapil. kapil on par with stokes. stokes has serious potential. longevity is vital but peak performances vs the top teams and against the field matter more. kapil never averaged under 25 even once in his career.

argument in favour of kapil is the fact that he played well vs the best team of all time.

On the downside is the fact that he struggled vs england and pakistan. his pathetic record vs pakistan moves him down the rankings imo.

 

[therealAB]

Dev bowled 35 overs a test, Botham bowled 36 so that is not a valid point. Yes he was good vs WI, but that does not match inferior batting, bowling records for Botham.
If he was that affected by being the sole bowler in his team, he would have significantly better WPM. Blokes like Hadlee, Murali lead these categories due to being workhorses who their teams relied on. Dev is nowhere (infact below average for a top bowler) in this statistic.

You said he was leagues superior to Faulkner, you were the one discussing him. For me he did well against quality opposition. Have read many good articles from old time journalists about him.

Stokes already has a comparable (not better than but similar) record to Dev. If he hits a peak he ill be way higher

 

[Robert]

Most of Dav's allure was that he was the first world class indian fast bowler. His batting average was slightly less than Botham's, but Botham, scored 6 more hundreds from 30 less tests. As a bowler he had a worse average, lower wickets/match and he has fewer five and ten wicket hauls. Some may attribute this to playing in India, but Botham averaged less than Kapil in India including 13 wickets in one test in Mumbai. Botham also scored a hundred in this test, one of five times he scored a hundred and took a five wicket haul in a test. The next best is twice. Kapil never did this. This was Botham's strength; no player in history was able to combine batting and bowling at the same time like he did.

And Botham played half his cricket in England where batting is hard.

His figures were ruined by going on too long. Really he should not have played tests after the 86/87 Ashes when he hit his last century and took his last fivefer. He would have averaged 35 with the bat and 27 with the ball, and still been wicket record holder. Instead he lurched on for another dozen tests averaging 20 with the bat and 55 with the ball in that time.

After that Ashes series he should have become an ODI specialist. He was second in the WC92 tournament wicket tally after Wasim so this is a reasonable idea - bowling tight medium pace in the middle overs, pinch-hitting as opener overseas or smashing it at the death in England.

 

[therealAB]

And Botham played half his cricket in England where batting is hard.

His figures were ruined by going on too long. Really he should not have played tests after the 86/87 Ashes when he hit his last century and took his last fivefer. He would have averaged 35 with the bat and 27 with the ball, and still been wicket record holder. Instead he lurched on for another dozen tests averaging 20 with the bat and 55 with the ball in that time.

After that Ashes series he should have become an ODI specialist. He was second in the WC92 tournament wicket tally after Wasim so this is a reasonable idea - bowling tight medium pace in the middle overs, pinch-hitting as opener overseas or smashing it at the death in England.

Yep agreed, significantly better cricketer than his final stats show

 

[Romali_rotti]

Dev over Botham for me still. All that matters in my eyes is what you did against the BEST, rest is all not much of a factor. ..

Matter of fact I believe Dev even out bowled/batted Imran in the WI against that legendary WI team. Dev also out bowled Botham in Australia. Dev only showed his best against the BEST which is a shame because had he put the same effort against the inferior teams he would have been the best of the best..

Sobers is the best, Imran is second and Dev rightfully takes 3rd. Botham get a no.5 because his performance against the WI was beyond terrible, he could barely put bat on ball against them and his bowling was trashed all over the park by the WI bats.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Dev over Botham for me still. All that matters in my eyes is what you did against the BEST, rest is all not much of a factor. ..

Matter of fact I believe Dev even out bowled/batted Imran in the WI against that legendary WI team. Dev also out bowled Botham in Australia. Dev only showed his best against the BEST which is a shame because had he put the same effort against the inferior teams he would have been the best of the best..

Sobers is the best, Imran is second and Dev rightfully takes 3rd. Botham get a no.5 because his performance against the WI was beyond terrible, he could barely put bat on ball against them and his bowling was trashed all over the park by the WI bats.

not really. imran decimated kapil when they faced each other head to head.
imran also had a far better record vs england, australia and his stats vs west indies was not far behind kapil's.

Granted imran played in a much stronger team however hadlee single handedly carried n.z too. So no excuses for paji.

 

[Romali_rotti]

not really. imran decimated kapil when they faced each other head to head.
imran also had a far better record vs england, australia and his stats vs west indies was not far behind kapil's.

Granted imran played in a much stronger team however hadlee single handedly carried n.z too. So no excuses for paji.

I dont get your point, I rated Imran ahead of Dev...

 

[Robert]

Dev over Botham for me still.

Botham get a no.5 because his performance against the WI was beyond terrible, he could barely put bat on ball against them and his bowling was trashed all over the park by the WI bats.

Other factors - Botham was made skipper for ten tests in a row against WI and his form vanished. As soon as he relinquished the captaincy, he got a 6fer and 199 runs for once out in the same match. So it captaincy had not affected his game, it was the oddest coincidence.

By the 1985 WI series his head was in a mess due to that personal manager fellow, and the tabloids were trying to destroy him, and his game fell apart under the pressure.

But he did get an 81 and a 8-fer in a match against WI - so he could do it.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Miller, Sobers and the 4 greats of 80s.

Stokes should join these legends soon!

 

[therealAB]

Dev over Botham for me still. All that matters in my eyes is what you did against the BEST, rest is all not much of a factor. ..

Matter of fact I believe Dev even out bowled/batted Imran in the WI against that legendary WI team. Dev also out bowled Botham in Australia. Dev only showed his best against the BEST which is a shame because had he put the same effort against the inferior teams he would have been the best of the best..

Sobers is the best, Imran is second and Dev rightfully takes 3rd. Botham get a no.5 because his performance against the WI was beyond terrible, he could barely put bat on ball against them and his bowling was trashed all over the park by the WI bats.

Kallis? Miller? both have to be in front of Dev/Botham

 

[Raz]

1. Sobers

One of the best batsmen of all time. He was also a versatile bowler, who could bowl pace and different types of spin. An excellent and fearless fielder. Greatest all-rounder of all time.

2. Imran

Lethal strike bowler, dependable batsman with the ability to switch from accumulating to smashing. A superb leader, who changed the psyche of Pakistan cricket.

3. Miller

Similar to Imran, was arguably a more destructive batsman. A whisker below though, due to Imran's proven inspirational leadership over a long period of time.

4. Botham

A match-winner with bat, ball and in the field. With Beefy in your team, you could always feel your team was in with a chance to win from almost any situation.

5. Kallis

A batting technique that could frustrate the best bowlers in the world. He often gave you the impression that he could hit any ball to the boundary if he chose to. More than useful pace bowler and reliable hands in the field.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Other factors - Botham was made skipper for ten tests in a row against WI and his form vanished. As soon as he relinquished the captaincy, he got a 6fer and 199 runs for once out in the same match. So it captaincy had not affected his game, it was the oddest coincidence.

By the 1985 WI series his head was in a mess due to that personal manager fellow, and the tabloids were trying to destroy him, and his game fell apart under the pressure.

But he did get an 81 and a 8-fer in a match against WI - so he could do it.

Hi Rob,

Dev's record as captain vs the WI:

11 matches - 438 100* 25.76 1 46 9/83 20.89 2 8 0 4.87

Dev has outdone Botham by quite a bit, your reasoning of Botham not showing up against the WI because he was captain has elevated DEV even more now imo.

Let me sum it up:

Botham is decent/good against all teams except that legendary WI side on the 80s.

For this reason, Botham gets very poor marks, if you cant show up against the best, well then maybe you are not as good as advertised...

 

[Robert]

Hi Rob,

Dev's record as captain vs the WI:

11 matches - 438 100* 25.76 1 46 9/83 20.89 2 8 0 4.87

Dev has outdone Botham by quite a bit, your reasoning of Botham not showing up against the WI because he was captain has elevated DEV even more now imo.

Let me sum it up:

Botham is decent/good against all teams except that legendary WI side on the 80s.

For this reason, Botham gets very poor marks, if you cant show up against the best, well then maybe you are not as good as advertised...

Decent/good doesn’t really do Botham justice. Check out his record against India.

I watched him get that 8-100 against WI and later that day smash them all over Lord’s for 81. So he could do it. I thought he got out against them from overconfidence - he could smash Lillee and Hadlee, but it didn’t work against four Lillees and Hadlees.

Botham was the world’s best player from 1977-82, but making him Captain was a mistake because it made him think too much and he lost his instinctive game.

After 1982 his bowling declined due to cumulative injuries and he also got fat. He should have focused on his batting thereafter and become the #4 behind Gooch at #1 and Gower at #3. He had that ability - we often said he had the best defence of any England player of his day. Such a waste in the end.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Decent/good doesn’t really do Botham justice. Check out his record against India.

Reason why I said decent/good was taking into consideration Botham's record's against his main Ashes rival Australia:

Botham: 36 1673 149* 29.35 4 6 148 6/78 27.65 9 57 0


Dev: 20 687 119 26.42 1 3 79 8/106 25.35 7 16 0


Dev again edges him out and no much difference in batting.

Also Botham's record against a 1 man (Dev) bowling attack of the Indians is a poor comparison, they had a weak bowling squad.



I watched him get that 8-100 against WI and later that day smash them all over Lord’s for 81. So he could do it. I thought he got out against them from overconfidence - he could smash Lillee and Hadlee, but it didn’t work against four Lillees and Hadlees.

Botham was the world’s best player from 1977-82, but making him Captain was a mistake because it made him think too much and he lost his instinctive game.

After 1982 his bowling declined due to cumulative injuries and he also got fat. He should have focused on his batting thereafter and become the #4 behind Gooch at #1 and Gower at #3. He had that ability - we often said he had the best defence of any England player of his day. Such a waste in the end.


I am sure Botham was very talented but he wasn't Kapil Dev, he captained his side to a WC victory as a 23 year old kid (with no help from rain), putting Indian cricket on the Map, Haryana Hurricane was on another level when he needed to show up vs the best.

...

 

[tyron_woodley]

kapil was better vs the best team but botham was better vs australia, pakistan and India. in the h2h battle vs india I believe botham emerged victorious.

So you decide who is better.

I agree excelling vs the top team is important but what if you were worse off vs the rest of the field?
so who is better?

I would still say botham.

 

[Romali_rotti]

kapil was better vs the best team but botham was better vs australia, pakistan and India. in the h2h battle vs india I believe botham emerged victorious.

So you decide who is better.

I agree excelling vs the top team is important but what if you were worse off vs the rest of the field?
so who is better?

I would still say botham.

Botham and Dev are neck and neck against Aus. I am quite surprised Botham could not out do Dev against his own main rivals, considering all the tales I hear about Botham did this, Botham did that to the aussies.