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France - Bans women wearing headscarfs, but allows them to protest topless in public

TM Riddle said:
Burqa should be definitely banned.No question about it.It's a hideous piece of clothing which represents oppression and has no relevance in modern society.Don't understand the ban on hijab though, it's quite modest and looks completely fine to me.In fact in many cases it makes the woman look even more beautiful.
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They banned all religious symbols (Christian/Muslim/Sikh/Jew etc...) if people start nitpicking you have to make provision for everyone.
 
Bakasura said:
Not by OP though...just curious what is hardline? They are leaving religion out.
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No they aren't. If I'm correct they must also have stopped nuns wearing the hijab in public. So the rule is clearly aimed at religion as there are no other restrictions clothing wise. I don't actually disagree with it in principle since I'm not a believer in head covering, but I don't see why people should be prevented from wearing them if they want to. That is what I mean by hardline.
 
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is dictating what every 'expat' Indian or Pakistani should do and if anyone objects, he is an exception.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
No they aren't. If I'm correct they must also have stopped nuns wearing the hijab in public. So the rule is clearly aimed at religion as there are no other restrictions clothing wise. I don't actually disagree with it in principle since I'm not a believer in head covering, but I don't see why people should be prevented from wearing them if they want to. That is what I mean by hardline.
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Then how you keep religion out...today people want scarves,tomorrow burqa or Kripaan..,where do you stop.

They don't have to make any adjustments to make few people happy.
 
Bakasura said:
Then how you keep religion out...today people want scarves,tomorrow burqa or Kripaan..,where do you stop.

They don't have to make any adjustments to make few people happy.
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In that case why didn't they ban wearing of turbans by sikhs in public?
 
TM Riddle said:
Nonsense.What threat does a hijab pose? Doesn't make any sense.
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What nonsense? They don't want any religion interfere with state,what's wrong in that?? They even banned Sikh caps does any one fighting in street for that??

End of day their country their rule.
 
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But captain Saab ToI news says only Burqa us banned that also in. Public schools...no mention of viel..
 
Texaco said:
Brother, Islam doesn't force women. Also burqa is not necessary as the only clth for decency.
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Brother, Muslims force women, and they force women through intimidation and threats.

Do you support throwing acid on the faces of women for not covering up head to toe as the Kashmiri fanatic Asiya Andrabi advocated in Kashmir?

Do you support Daesh-style repression of women being forced to wear niqab or suffer brutal beatings?

Why complain about France when YOU yourself admitted that you support forced veiling on women throughout the world? And you wonder why Islamophobia is rampant with hypocrites like you running around. I'm sure you're a troll and you exhibit characteristics of one, but my main point still stands.

Muslims in the West offered an inch, yet take a mile or a couple of kilometers from others, and then whine about not being respected.
 
Mamoon said:
I'm also a Pakistani, and given the plight of minorities in Pakistan, it will be hypocritical of me to focus on France.

Pakistanis should worry and concern about the sufferings of minorities (and their fellow citizens of Pakistan) in their home country rather than focus on what's happening in other countries around the world.
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Before being Pakistan citizen, you are a Muslim, aren't you ? Or am I missing something?
 
dayvancowboy said:
Brother, Muslims force women, and they force women through intimidation and threats.

Do you support throwing acid on the faces of women for not covering up head to toe as the Kashmiri fanatic Asiya Andrabi advocated in Kashmir?

Do you support Daesh-style repression of women being forced to wear niqab or suffer brutal beatings?

Why complain about France when YOU yourself admitted that you support forced veiling on women throughout the world? And you wonder why Islamophobia is rampant with hypocrites like you running around. I'm sure you're a troll and you exhibit characteristics of one, but my main point still stands.

Muslims in the West offered an inch, yet take a mile or a couple of kilometers from others, and then whine about not being respected.
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You should first learn better manners of debate, specially if you are looking for genuine answer from me. Calling me a troll wouldn't lend any weight to your argument.
Thank you.
 
Texaco said:
You should first learn better manners of debate, specially if you are looking for genuine answer from me. Calling me a troll wouldn't lend any weight to your argument.
Thank you.
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You should learn how to handle the heat if you post inane diatribes. If you can't handle the heat, then step out of the kitchen.
 
dayvancowboy said:
You should learn how to handle the heat if you post inane diatribes. If you can't handle the heat, then step out of the kitchen.
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I can handle the heat of genuine arguments, not personal insults like being called a troll.
May be our standards of debate differ. May you get people of your type . Amen...
 
KingKhanWC said:
France has been meddling into Libyan affairs for decades, they have supported the opposite side when they don't like the current leadership.

Muslims made Libya the most advanced nation in North Africa until the western nations decided they wanted Gaddafi removed. France was the first to recognise the 'opposition' which was in fact groups of extremists who were doing the wests bidding in removing Gaddafi. France bombed Libya and destroyed plenty of the country to further their own political means. Muslims did not destroy Libya, a bunch of terrorists supported by the west destroyed a relatively prosperous Muslim country, killing many Muslims including blacks just because they were black.
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That's not my understanding at all.

Firstly, what religion are these "terrorists?"

Secondly, the Arab Spring resulted in a full-scale revolt against the Gaddafi regime in 2011. UN Resolution 1973 was leveled against the regime and NATO enforced a no-fly zone and carried pit airstrikes resulting in the collapse of said regime. I really didn't see the point of this - NATO should have helped Gaddafi IMO, but I guess some people have long memories of the Lockerbie incident.

Thirdly, as of 2014 Libya is experiencing a second civil war between at least four factions. What religion are these factions?
 
Texaco said:
Brother, Islam doesn't force women. Also burqa is not necessary as the only clth for decency.
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Tell it to woman in arab countries and the regions ruled by isis or taliban. Your words mean nothing when reality is something else.

Texaco said:
It is not an Arabic religion. There are more Muslims in non Arab world.
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May be, but the fact that its not an Indonesian, Indian, French, Thai or Sri lankan religion is pretty undeniable unless you just want to keep your eyes closed.
Buddhism is an Indian religion while there are more buddhists outside India then inside it.

Texaco said:
No brother, your words will not offend me. As prophet himself was subjected to much ridicule in his life but he was always tolerant and peaceful.

He had to belong to any one race, no?
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Its not matter of offense, its the matter of truth and you keep on putting your faith ahead of the truth.

You keep beating around the bushes and avoiding the points i discussed on topic. You want to drag Islam in to this matter while i want to discuss things beyond that.
 
Texaco said:
Before being Pakistan citizen, you are a Muslim, aren't you ? Or am I missing something?
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This religion over nationality mentality is the reason why Pakistanis are killing each other. Sunnis, Shias, Ahmadis, Christians and Hindus are getting killed.

Same mentality is the reason why Taliban want to take over the country and impose their ideology in the constitution.

If we start looking at one other as fellow citizens and accept that religion is a private affair between man and God, Pakistan will become as peaceful as any other state in the world.
 
Robert said:
That's not my understanding at all.

Firstly, what religion are these "terrorists?"

Secondly, the Arab Spring resulted in a full-scale revolt against the Gaddafi regime in 2011. UN Resolution 1973 was leveled against the regime and NATO enforced a no-fly zone and carried pit airstrikes resulting in the collapse of said regime. I really didn't see the point of this - NATO should have helped Gaddafi IMO, but I guess some people have long memories of the Lockerbie incident.

Thirdly, as of 2014 Libya is experiencing a second civil war between at least four factions. What religion are these factions?
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Robert said:
That's not my understanding at all.

Firstly, what religion are these "terrorists?"

Secondly, the Arab Spring resulted in a full-scale revolt against the Gaddafi regime in 2011. UN Resolution 1973 was leveled against the regime and NATO enforced a no-fly zone and carried pit airstrikes resulting in the collapse of said regime. I really didn't see the point of this - NATO should have helped Gaddafi IMO, but I guess some people have long memories of the Lockerbie incident.

Thirdly, as of 2014 Libya is experiencing a second civil war between at least four factions. What religion are these factions?
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Firstly the terrorists are also French, British and American. Dropping bombs and blowing up innocent people is no different to any other forms of terrorism, arguably worse.

The so called 'rebels' who are actually Al-Qaeda elements claim to be Muslims but they were supported by Nato.

In fact. According to amnesty the so called rebels were armed from day 1 so it wasn't a peaceful movement or peaceful protestors. According to Amnesty again Gaddafi wasn't conducting any ariel strikes or rapes as accused by western nations against the so called protestors. According to amnesty again just over 100 people were killed in Benghazi not the thousands claimed by Nato. So misinformation, blatant lies and propaganda was used by western nations in the UN.

Your third point, as I mentioned Libya was doing well but now look war and deaths are a result of western intervention. The pawns are only doing the bidding of the Kings who are happy Libya is destroyed now.
 
Their country, their rules. If they want to do hijab then they should go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits them according to their beliefs.
 
aukhan said:
Their country, their rules. If they want to do hijab then they should go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits them according to their beliefs.
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England: Junior Doctors strike.

When interviewed by reporter: Dr. Fatima (born in Sheffield) - "We Junior Doctors disgree with these new contracts"
[MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] (plus similar others) response: "You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"

..........

London Mayoral election:

When interviewed by reporter: Sadiq Khan - Labour Party candidate for London Mayor "We can do better than the Conservatives"
[MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] (plus similar others) response: "You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"

.............

Pick any topic.
As long as there is a Muslim sounding name somewhere in the discussion, standard response by the likes of [MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] and some others:
"You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"
 
Yossarian said:
England: Junior Doctors strike.

When interviewed by reporter: Dr. Fatima (born in Sheffield) - "We Junior Doctors disgree with these new contracts"

[MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] (plus similar others) response: "You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"

..........

London Mayoral election:

When interviewed by reporter: Sadiq Khan - Labour Party candidate for London Mayor "We can do better than the Conservatives"

[MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] (plus similar others) response: "You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"

.............

Pick any topic.
As long as there is a Muslim sounding name somewhere in the discussion, standard response by the likes of [MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] and some others:
"You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"
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Well put :23:
 
Yossarian said:
England: Junior Doctors strike.

When interviewed by reporter: Dr. Fatima (born in Sheffield) - "We Junior Doctors disgree with these new contracts"

[MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] (plus similar others) response: "You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"

..........

London Mayoral election:

When interviewed by reporter: Sadiq Khan - Labour Party candidate for London Mayor "We can do better than the Conservatives"

[MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] (plus similar others) response: "You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"

.............

Pick any topic.
As long as there is a Muslim sounding name somewhere in the discussion, standard response by the likes of [MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] and some others:
"You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"
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Yesterday you were saying no religion involved..now this :))
 
Bakasura said:
Yesterday you were saying no religion involved..now this :))
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Read the post to which this is a response.

And oh yes, I forgot to add your name in addition to that of [MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] since the above post is even more applicable to you. In fact you're the biggest culprit of all.
 
Yossarian said:
Read the post to which this is a response.

And oh yes, I forgot to add your name in addition to that of [MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] since the above post is even more applicable to you. In fact you're the biggest culprit of all.
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Whatever post, if you don't see such subjects from a religious angle you don't have to start bringing religion into it..Unlike you i am talking about keeping all religion out of state.....Simple....

By the way you still didn't clarified errors in OP as exhibitionism is still crime in France while this is a specific case.Small matter but still.....
 
Yossarian said:
England: Junior Doctors strike.

When interviewed by reporter: Dr. Fatima (born in Sheffield) - "We Junior Doctors disgree with these new contracts"

[MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] (plus similar others) response: "You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"

..........

London Mayoral election:

When interviewed by reporter: Sadiq Khan - Labour Party candidate for London Mayor "We can do better than the Conservatives"

[MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] (plus similar others) response: "You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"

.............

Pick any topic.
As long as there is a Muslim sounding name somewhere in the discussion, standard response by the likes of [MENTION=135368]aukhan[/MENTION] and some others:
"You're obviously a Muslim. Go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran whichever suits you best"
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These countries are on the target list of Muslims jihadi groups. Are you seriously expecting these countries to accommodate Muslims at the cost of their own safety. Muslims have done nothing to demand anything from anyone and if they have so many problems living in these first world countries then why don't they leave and live in countries which are strictly implementing their beliefs.
 
aukhan said:
These countries are on the target list of Muslims jihadi groups. Are you seriously expecting these countries to accommodate Muslims at the cost of their own safety. Muslims have done nothing to demand anything from anyone and if they have so many problems living in these first world countries then why don't they leave and live in countries which are strictly implementing their beliefs.
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That seem's to be your standard response "leave". Along with "go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran".

We're UK citizens, and by extention, citizens of the European Union, of which France is also a part. We pay our taxes. We have the right to vote and express our opinions in a civil manner. Whereas, wherever you seem to be from, the mantra seem's to be "If you don't like it, leave". On that basis, if you don't like the topic of this thread, or the opinions expressed within it, then, to use your own word "leave!"
 
Yossarian said:
That seem's to be your standard response "leave". Along with "go live in Saudi Arabia or Iran".

We're UK citizens, and by extention, citizens of the European Union, of which France is also a part. We pay our taxes. We have the right to vote and express our opinions in a civil manner. Whereas, wherever you seem to be from, the mantra seem's to be "If you don't like it, leave". On that basis, if you don't like the topic of this thread, or the opinions expressed within it, then, to use your own word "leave!"
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You have your right to protest and french government have all the right in the world to ban burkha for the safety of their majority. Deal with it or leave their country as i'm leaving this thread now. :)
 
You'd think Pakistanis, of all people, wouldn't have an issue with France doing things like this considering how similar France's my way or the highway approach is to ours(our version is usually 'my way or die'). You won't find a more perfect match anywhere else in the world. Their approach is almost a like for like version of ours (though their motives are the exact opposite) which makes them the perfect Anti-Pakistan(in the matter/antimatter or Superman/Lex Luthor sense, not anti Pakistan as in against Pakistan).

Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
 
I don't think it's Pakistanis who are protesting, it's mostly those who are based in Europe who are wondering what implication it would have for those of us who live here. None for me personally since the scarf isn't worn by anyone in my immediate family so even if England follows suit it wouldn't be a problem.

On the other hand I suppose it no one will be able to complain about dress codes in Pakistan on here without looking a complete hypocrite.
 
Are these guys banning the burqa or the cheela, i can understand the one that totally covers the face, but the cheela covers the hair.

But end of the day its upto the individual what she wears.
 
Yossarian said:
France - where women can go topless, but not cover their heads, in public.

(I'm not posting the link, as it contains nudity. But google for the above article if you wish)
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How is this different than some Arab countries mandating women covering their hair but not allowing swimsuits?
 
Indiafan said:
How is this different than some Arab countries mandating women covering their hair but not allowing swimsuits?
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What is with some of these Indian posters? No matter what the discussion, their response is always "What about Arab countries .... blah, blah, blah" or words to the effect.

Thread: "Will man colonise Mars in the next 200 years?"
Indian posters response: "What about Saudi Arabia's laws on ...."

Thread: "Will the two Korea's ever unite again just as Germany did?"
Indian posters response: "If you don't like their laws, go and live in Saudi Arabia or Iran"

Thread: "Who will win the Champions League this year?"
Indian posters response: "What about Arab countries treatment of ....."
-- oh wait, I'll give them that one in case Arab owned Man City or PSG win!
 
KingKhanWC said:
On topic, France is not really a liberal, free society, giving rights to all but a liberal fascist society nation which applauds those who follow it's ideology and oppose anyone who is different.

The only good thing about the French is they tend not to come to Britain.
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[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] [MENTION=76058]cricketjoshila[/MENTION] [MENTION=137142]JaDed[/MENTION]

So, a nation went from being fascist to paragon of secularism in just two years.
 
Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France's state-run schools, the education minister has said.

The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.

France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.

Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.

"When you walk into a classroom, you shouldn't be able to identify the pupils' religion just by looking at them," Education Minister Gabriel Attal told France's TF1 TV, adding: "I have decided that the abaya could no longer be worn in schools."

The move comes after months of debate over the wearing of abayas in French schools.

The garment is being increasingly worn in schools, leading to a political divide over them, with right-wing parties pushing for a ban while those on the left have voiced concerns for the rights of Muslim women and girls.

"Secularism means the freedom to emancipate oneself through school," Mr Attal told TF1, arguing the abaya is "a religious gesture, aimed at testing the resistance of the republic toward the secular sanctuary that school must constitute."

He said that he would give clear rules at the national level before schools open after the summer break.

In 2010, France banned the wearing of full face veils in public which provoked anger in France's five million-strong Muslim community.

France has enforced a strict ban on religious signs at schools since the 19th Century, including Christian symbols such as large crosses, in an effort to curb any Catholic influence from public education.

It has been updating the law over the years to reflect its changing population, which now includes the Muslim headscarf and Jewish kippa, but abayas have not been banned outright.

The debate on Islamic symbols has intensified since a Chechen refugee beheaded teacher Samuel Paty, who had shown students caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed, near his school in a Paris suburb in 2020.

The announcement is the first major policy decision by Mr Attal, who was appointed France's education minister by President Emmanuel Macron this summer at the age of 34.

The CFCM, a national body representing many Muslim associations, has said items of clothing alone were not "a religious sign".
 
On the first day of the new academic year French schools sent home dozens of girls for refusing to remove their abayas, the education minister said on Tuesday.

Defying a ban on the Muslim garment, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing an abaya, Gabriel Attal told the BFM broadcaster. Most agreed to change, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.

The government announcedlast month it was banning the abayas in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already led to Muslim headscarves being banned on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.

The move gladdened the political right but critics argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.

Attal said the girls refused entry were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.

www.theguardian.com

French schools send home dozens of girls wearing Muslim abayas

Girls who refused to remove banned garment given letter saying ‘secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty’, says minister
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Their body their choice, is what west teaches everyone. But suddenly it's a problem when others live it.. If their face is visible so that they can be identified for school purposes, i don't see any problem with what anyone wears. If the women are wearing a face covering cloth, then there is a concern as you cannot identify them. Otherwise, honestly what is the problem? From the pictures i see online, it is just head covering.
 
FranceUni.jpg

This is also France.

The secular extremist state is also uneducated and ignorant.

Where do they think this attire comes from? Islamic history and Muslims.

France is a laughing stock and in serious decline. The days of colonisation and looting of others is over.
 
a state has no right to tell the citizens how to dress be it france, iran , Saudi or Pakistan.
 
SalimBhai said:
a state has no right to tell the citizens how to dress be it france, iran , Saudi or Pakistan.
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Unless its immodest. Every nation has a law which against dress or lack of which shows private areas.

To force women to take off clothes is only European backward mentality.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Unless its immodest. Every nation has a law which against dress or lack of which shows private areas.

To force women to take off clothes is only European backward mentality.
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To force women to wear what they don’t want to wear ( iran protest in point) I also backward mentality. 70 lashes for the offense is barbaric .
 
SalimBhai said:
To force women to wear what they don’t want to wear ( iran protest in point) I also backward mentality. 70 lashes for the offense is barbaric .
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You can blame your hosts, USA for removing Mohammad Mosaddegh and installing their puppet. After the revolution such laws were reintroduced. The punishment isntt lashes, please stop making up stuff.

I dont agree with Iranian laws but most Iranians do, isnt it democracy? This is minor compared to forcing women to take off clothes, there is a difference in laws for covering hair and laws for removing clothes on a beach. Both extreme but French laws are more extreme and very backward and based on hate of minorities.
 
KingKhanWC said:
You can blame your hosts, USA for removing Mohammad Mosaddegh and installing their puppet. After the revolution such laws were reintroduced. The punishment isntt lashes, please stop making up stuff.

I dont agree with Iranian laws but most Iranians do, isnt it democracy? This is minor compared to forcing women to take off clothes, there is a difference in laws for covering hair and laws for removing clothes on a beach. Both extreme but French laws are more extreme and very backward and based on hate of minorities.
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The protest show the law ain’t that popular. And yes. 70 lashes can be administered
 
SalimBhai said:
The protest show the law ain’t that popular. And yes. 70 lashes can be administered
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lol, vast majority of Iranians dont support the protests but the law of the land.

Show evidence of this law?

What is worse in your world? A woman forced to wear a headscarf or a woman forced to take off her clothes on the beach in public?
 
SportsWarrior said:
they are top five recipient of tourists. I am sure they will do fine without you :)
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Mainly because Europeans drive through France to reach other destinations.

The south of France is pleasant but Paris and other cities are a dump. The people are moody and arrogant. Far more better places to visit in Europe.
 
KingKhanWC said:
lol, vast majority of Iranians dont support the protests but the law of the land.

Show evidence of this law?

What is worse in your world? A woman forced to wear a headscarf or a woman forced to take off her clothes on the beach in public?
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For that to get a meaningful reply you should of course that should apply to everyone, not just other people. So yes, it also applies to your nearest and dearest.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
For that to get a meaningful reply you should of course that should apply to everyone, not just other people. So yes, it also applies to your nearest and dearest.
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In the name of secular liberalism and wanting to be Mr Smith with a pearl face, those will be more than happy it applies to nearest and dearest.
 
French court upholds abaya ban in public schools

France’s highest court on Thursday upheld the government’s ban on students in public schools from wearing the abaya, a long, robe-like garment often worn by Muslim women, in a decision that rights groups warn will lead to more discrimination.

“As things stand, the judge considers that the ban on wearing these garments does not constitute a serious and manifestly illegal infringement of a fundamental freedom,” the court said in a press release published online.

The ban has its legal foundation in a law passed in 2004 forbidding the wearing of “conspicuous” religious symbols in French schools.

The court said the wearing of the abaya “was part of a process of religious affirmation, as shown by the comments made during discussions with students.”


CNN
 
Hitman said:
I wonder France will ever recover from this devastating blow.
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Have nothing to do with whether it affects France or not. Was just stating how I have been feeling about France for last few years.
And before you say it won't affect them still, I know.
If they keep doing stuff like this, many more people will start feeling the same way.

It wasn't a self-grandeur statement.
 
KingKhanWC said:
lol, vast majority of Iranians dont support the protests but the law of the land.

Show evidence of this law?

What is worse in your world? A woman forced to wear a headscarf or a woman forced to take off her clothes on the beach in public?
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Curious - does any western country force women to take off their clothes in public? I did not know this.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Unless its immodest. Every nation has a law which against dress or lack of which shows private areas.

To force women to take off clothes is only European backward mentality.
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This has practical difficulties simply because modesty is a subjective interpretation. My neighbor can say thigh high skirts on women are modest, my college friend can say knee high skirts on women are modest, I can say ankle length skirts are boundary for modesty, my co-worker can say ankle high+head scarf are the boundary for modesty, and my grandfather can say only a full burka constitutes modesty.

Forget other cultures or religious groups. Even among muslim nations what is modest in Turkey or Malaysia may not be so in Indonesia, and what is modest in Indonesia may not be so in Saudi Arabia. What is modest in Saudi these days is probably not modest enough in Afghanistan or in a rule under Daesh (ISIS).

So how do we universally define what is modest and immodest in the light of this variance from subjective interpretation?
 
Teachers and students of a French high school have gone on strike in protest against the government’s decision to ban abaya and qamis – long and loose garments worn by some Muslim women and men, respectively – in public schools.

“We want to distance ourselves from the government’s Islamophobic policy,” read a statement from the protest group at the Maurice Utrillo high school in Stains, Seine-Saint-Denis, calling for a strike which started on Wednesday.

“Students must be welcomed at the Maurice Utrillo high school and we do not have to police the clothing. We refuse to stigmatise students who wear an abaya or a qamis.”

“For months and months, we had no teachers as there were no replacements, but they found time for this?” one of the students who joined the strike in front of the Utrillo school told local television BFM.

Parents joined the demonstration, during which the school’s staff decried budget issues – criticising what they called a “drastic drop” in necessary resources to teach well, including cuts on personnel and on teaching hours.

“We are not waiting for ministries who tell us how to dress, we are waiting for ministries who give us the tools to provide our children some serenity … and that gives our teachers the best tools,” a student’s mother told local media.

The display of religious symbols has long been a topic of controversy in France, which is home to Europe’s largest Muslim minority.

ALJAZEERA
 
There is only SO much you can push, when it comes to these things.

France is setting itself up for a major backlash
 
France is fair, and bans all religious attire. Unlike the humsaya mulk which banned hijab while letting turban being worn.
 
Curious about this - If we are condemning France for banning headscarves because it infringes on an individual's rights, shouldn't we also condemn countries forcing women to wear burqa/hijab/headscarf? Shouldn't we also condemn regimes like Taliban or Daesh mandating men grow beards? I had a similar discussion with my family and the older generation does not agree.

Why are we ok with other fellow muslim countries imposing restrictions on women (some also men) while at the same time only condemning things when it is against the perceived norms of muslims? Why not advocate for all countries to respect individual preferences? As long as people are clothed in accordance with whatever their local cultural norms are, then who cares what they wear and why is the state (be it France or Iran or Saudi) imposing on personal preferences?

Disclaimer #1: If your standard response is - "It is ok to impose dress codes if they are for modesty" then read my post #389 for modesty. Modesty is a subjective term that varies even within muslims or among family members.

Disclaimer #2: Dear Indians, my point is only to have a reasonable discussion about preferences among muslim communities. Please do not turn this into some cheap point scoring tactics against Islam or Muslims.
 
There is a quote that is attributed to Theodore Roosevelt: “The head-in-the-air theorists will not succeed in politics any more than in law, or physics, or dry goods. We’ve got to face facts…Strive mightily for high ideals. Keep your eyes on the stars, but don’t forget that your feet are necessarily on the earth.”

This is in effect a call for grounded idealism and an admission that tensions are part of life and that ideals must not become detached from everyday reality and humanity in all its complexity.

In France, republicanism which is a central idea, has in some ways become unmoored with ground realities.

In France it is illegal to collect statistics on ethnic minorities. This stems from the belief that in a secular republic, all should be equal. Worthy as an aspiration, it does not however evade the reality that not all are in fact treated equally. In the words of historian Emile Chabal, “It is hard enough to tackle social problems that are visible; it is much harder to deal with those that are shrouded in silence.”

There are two features of French republicanism that we need to note: abstraction and universalism. On abstraction, to quote the nineteenth century French writer, Émile de Montégut: “There is no people among whom abstract ideas have played such a great role, whose history is rife with such formidable philosophical tendencies, and where individuals are so oblivious to facts and possessed to such a high degree with a rage for abstractions.”

On universalism, there is this sense, that its great philosophers were speaking not just for themselves or the French but for the whole world. The French writer, Jean d’Ormesson, put it as: “More than any nation, France is haunted by a yearning towards universality.” There is this feeling of France symbolising or aspiring to embody universal principles.

Universalism and abstract thought has its positive aspects in sustaining high minded idealism. To quote Chabal again, “Because republican values are anchored in abstract principles such as equality, liberty, popular sovereignty and freedom of expression, they hold out the promise that they are accessible to all, regardless of origin, colour or creed.”

But the flip side to universalism is that it can lead to arrogance and can be a disabling mindset when dealing with difference. The specific or particular which does not quite fit with the universal viewpoint becomes difficult to understand. In the end this becomes a problem with acknowledging difference and accepting diversity.
 
rickroll said:
Curious about this - If we are condemning France for banning headscarves because it infringes on an individual's rights, shouldn't we also condemn countries forcing women to wear burqa/hijab/headscarf? Shouldn't we also condemn regimes like Taliban or Daesh mandating men grow beards? I had a similar discussion with my family and the older generation does not agree.

Why are we ok with other fellow muslim countries imposing restrictions on women (some also men) while at the same time only condemning things when it is against the perceived norms of muslims? Why not advocate for all countries to respect individual preferences? As long as people are clothed in accordance with whatever their local cultural norms are, then who cares what they wear and why is the state (be it France or Iran or Saudi) imposing on personal preferences?

Disclaimer #1: If your standard response is - "It is ok to impose dress codes if they are for modesty" then read my post #389 for modesty. Modesty is a subjective term that varies even within muslims or among family members.

Disclaimer #2: Dear Indians, my point is only to have a reasonable discussion about preferences among muslim communities. Please do not turn this into some cheap point scoring tactics against Islam or Muslims.
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great post
 
France is the most unfriendly country I ever visited. Extremely rude people. I remember on one occasion, I went to some restaurant on the outskirts of Paris with my family. Literally every single person in the restaurant stared at us when we walked in. It is as if they had never seen a non white person before. It was such an uncomfortable experience. I am never going back to that crap hole again.
 
rickroll said:
Curious about this - If we are condemning France for banning headscarves because it infringes on an individual's rights, shouldn't we also condemn countries forcing women to wear burqa/hijab/headscarf? Shouldn't we also condemn regimes like Taliban or Daesh mandating men grow beards? I had a similar discussion with my family and the older generation does not agree.

Why are we ok with other fellow muslim countries imposing restrictions on women (some also men) while at the same time only condemning things when it is against the perceived norms of muslims? Why not advocate for all countries to respect individual preferences? As long as people are clothed in accordance with whatever their local cultural norms are, then who cares what they wear and why is the state (be it France or Iran or Saudi) imposing on personal preferences?

Disclaimer #1: If your standard response is - "It is ok to impose dress codes if they are for modesty" then read my post #389 for modesty. Modesty is a subjective term that varies even within muslims or among family members.

Disclaimer #2: Dear Indians, my point is only to have a reasonable discussion about preferences among muslim communities. Please do not turn this into some cheap point scoring tactics against Islam or Muslims.
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So much whatboutery here I'm laughing!

But let's break down your nonsensical points.

First, how many Muslim countries are there? And then name how many of them have COMPULSORY niqab? Not even the Taliban led Afghanistan has that, although they mandate the scarf in public.
Plus, no idea why you're mentioning Daesh which has never been a legitimate government and even at its peak only had about 20,000 members according to the US government....whereas there are almost 2 billion muslims on this planet so your bias is already showing.

On top of all that, there is a fundamental difference between a Muslim state and a liberal state. The Muslim state never allows anyone to dress however they like, they have a set of regulations which are followed either socially or imposed byt he government (this is very very very rare).

Liberal societies such as France however are built on the concept of "do whatever you like as long as it does not harm anyone" and the French, in particular when it comes to women have stated "wear whatever you like"...so if a French woman wants to wear more clothes it is a problem but not less? Not only are they going against the foundations of their own liberal values and society but against their own stated aims. This is nothing less than bigotry against Muslims because I don't see any laws against French nuns dressing the way they do.

You have started off with oriental nonsense and ended without even knowing the difference between a liberal state and a Muslim one.
 
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