France: Teacher beheaded, police shoot dead suspected killer

[Nadeemp]

https://www.ivir.nl/publicaties/download/Limits_to_expression_on_religion_in_France.pdf

I would prefer you back your words with actions. Please go take a placard outside French parliament stating 'Stop Jewish Settler Terrorism'. This will give you plenty of reading time.

Will I be killed for it ( the sign). Will I go to jail for it?

 

[Tubs]

I think most of us agree that we don't agree with the double standard regarding Jews??

Also, let's not pretend that you're bringing them up as some sort of consistency test, we know your reasons.

Refer to this hadith: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/60/121

 

[KingKhanWC]

I think most of us agree that we don't agree with the double standard regarding Jews??

Also, let's not pretend that you're bringing them up as some sort of consistency test, we know your reasons.

Refer to this hadith: https://sunnah.com/bukhari/60/121

Great example of intellectual defiency.

Jews are people of the book, Muslim men can marry Jewish women. Muslims can eat Kosher food.

Everything must be then taken from this principle & context. Sayings can be for a certain time and a certain people but lets not use the usual divert tactics in this thread.

The point was simple, there are laws in France which protect religions but Islam is fair game while Judaism cannot be touched. This rubbishes the daft argument of freedom of speech. Muslims only want to be treated fairly like others but for Islamaphobes it's too much to ask. This means they are extremists themselves.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Will I be killed for it ( the sign). Will I go to jail for it?

According to you it's freedom of speech in France, so please go do it and get back to us after.

 

[Giannis]

Lol, cope more.

He tweeted a pic of the severed head, arrests have been made. He was emboldened by Macron's comments too, as said in his tweet.

If true, what are your thoughts on what the guy did?

When did I deny that incident happened and the man that did this is guilty? You're not aware of intel agencies doing this kind of stuff, they recruit these radicals for their own purposes.

 

[Tubs]

Great example of intellectual defiency.

Jews are people of the book, Muslim men can marry Jewish women. Muslims can eat Kosher food.

Everything must be then taken from this principle & context. Sayings can be for a certain time and a certain people but lets not use the usual divert tactics in this thread.

The point was simple, there are laws in France which protect religions but Islam is fair game while Judaism cannot be touched. This rubbishes the daft argument of freedom of speech. Muslims only want to be treated fairly like others but for Islamaphobes it's too much to ask. This means they are extremists themselves.

And I said I agree that there shouldn't be a Jewish double standard (I said in a deleted post that the holocaust has been used to stifle free speech when it comes to Jews and Israel for a long time).

There certainly is a lot of anti-semitism in Islamic and Pakistani societies (not necessarily saying you are), though, so that's why I said that.

There is another hadith which could promote anti-semitism:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:

The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

From Sahih Muslim ( here's the link in case you think it's a 'hate site': https://sunnah.com/muslim/54/105)

All I'm saying is that you can draw cartoons of a long-dead historical figure that some people revere as a prophet. That is not 'Islamaphobic', though you refer to any dissenting opinion as such. That is a better example of intellectual deficiency.

 

[KingKhanWC]

And I said I agree that there shouldn't be a Jewish double standard (I said in a deleted post that the holocaust has been used to stifle free speech when it comes to Jews and Israel for a long time).

There certainly is a lot of anti-semitism in Islamic and Pakistani societies (not necessarily saying you are), though, so that's why I said that.

There is another hadith which could promote anti-semitism:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:

The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

From Sahih Muslim ( here's the link in case you think it's a 'hate site': https://sunnah.com/muslim/54/105)

All I'm saying is that you can draw cartoons of a long-dead historical figure that some people revere as a prophet. That is not 'Islamaphobic', though you refer to any dissenting opinion as such. That is a better example of intellectual deficiency.

lol This is getting embarrasing now debating with someone who does not use some comone sense and logic.

You have quoted a prophecy, perhaps you are unware but the Jewish state of Israel has been terrorising and occupying Palestinians for decades now. Also do not take each word literally, often metaphors are used in order for people to understand in the times of the reported saying.

They are not friendly cartoons but hate filled nonsense, such as the Prophet(pbuh) with a bomb. If you dont think this is Islamaphobic you are really are clueless.

Your saying it's fine to draw any cartoons Islamic personalities in any way. This would be fine if the countries you are supporting also held the same principle for Jews. Your point is freedom of speech but I've proven this is nonsense in France. Why dont you put it to the test and take a placard with anti Jewish rhetoric. Maybe you will become a hero the secular world but you'd rather sit behind your keyboard and attack Islam on a daily basis. Its lame lol.

 

[Tubs]

lol This is getting embarrasing now debating with someone who does not use some comone sense and logic.

You have quoted a prophecy, perhaps you are unware but the Jewish state of Israel has been terrorising and occupying Palestinians for decades now. Also do not take each word literally, often metaphors are used in order for people to understand in the times of the reported saying.

They are not friendly cartoons but hate filled nonsense, such as the Prophet(pbuh) with a bomb. If you dont think this is Islamaphobic you are really are clueless.

Your saying it's fine to draw any cartoons Islamic personalities in any way. This would be fine if the countries you are supporting also held the same principle for Jews. Your point is freedom of speech but I've proven this is nonsense in France. Why dont you put it to the test and take a placard with anti Jewish rhetoric. Maybe you will become a hero the secular world but you'd rather sit behind your keyboard and attack Islam on a daily basis. Its lame lol.

It doesn't mention Israel now, does it? And all I was saying that it could certainly be interpreted as anti-semitic. I like how it all becomes metaphor and allegory when it is reprehensible, very convenient. Maybe Hajj, Ramadan, and the like are metaphorical, too?

It is fine, even if there is a double standard for Jews?? I said that I don't agree with the double standards for Jews, I'm not sure what else you want. I wouldn't go out holding placards for anything, so I don't see your point. You see everything as an attack on Islam because you're a perpetual victim.

Someone got beheaded for showing a cartoon and you're saying stuff like 'what did you expect to happen', 'the Jews!!1!1!11'. Your true colours are showing, and I'm glad.

 

[KingKhanWC]

It doesn't mention Israel now, does it? And all I was saying that it could certainly be interpreted as anti-semitic. I like how it all becomes metaphor and allegory when it is reprehensible, very convenient. Maybe Hajj, Ramadan, and the like are metaphorical, too?

It is fine, even if there is a double standard for Jews?? I said that I don't agree with the double standards for Jews, I'm not sure what else you want. I wouldn't go out holding placards for anything, so I don't see your point. You see everything as an attack on Islam because you're a perpetual victim.

Someone got beheaded for showing a cartoon and you're saying stuff like 'what did you expect to happen', 'the Jews!!1!1!11'. Your true colours are showing, and I'm glad.[

lol, Israel as a nation never existed at this time, so again please use some common sense. I cannot control what you believe but majority of scholars who actually know about Islam , confirm this is a prophecy.

Your bolded words are another common sign of anti religion and esp anti Islamic mindset. This is basically lying , putting words into peoples mouths, another sign of extremism.

You havent address the key and main point because you cant. There is NO freedom of speech in France as proven but freedom to spread hate against Islam.

The irony is the Muslim population is growing and not decling , for many reasons but one is many people esp in the western world are becoming Muslims. Not only do you not have strong arguments , you are wasting your time, you dont have the power and neither does Macron or all the extremist secularists to stop Islam being followed on this planet. You will be dead, long forgetton, with nobody even remembering you in a 100 years time but Islam will still be in every corner of the world. Good job not.

 

[srh]

Horrible. The teacher should not have been killed.

What the teacher did was absolutely wrong. Hate begets hate. I think France should make a law making it illegal to insult Prophet Mohammad (SAW). In fact that law should include other religious figures. The freedom of expression should not be used as a disguise to insult a religious figure.

 

[Tubs]

lol, Israel as a nation never existed at this time, so again please use some common sense. I cannot control what you believe but majority of scholars who actually know about Islam , confirm this is a prophecy.

Your bolded words are another common sign of anti religion and esp anti Islamic mindset. This is basically lying , putting words into peoples mouths, another sign of extremism.

You havent address the key and main point because you cant. There is NO freedom of speech in France as proven but freedom to spread hate against Islam.

The irony is the Muslim population is growing and not decling , for many reasons but one is many people esp in the western world are becoming Muslims. Not only do you not have strong arguments , you are wasting your time, you dont have the power and neither does Macron or all the extremist secularists to stop Islam being followed on this planet. You will be dead, long forgetton, with nobody even remembering you in a 100 years time but Islam will still be in every corner of the world. Good job not.

An omniscient god or his prophet could easily know that a land called Israel would be established about 1400 years in the future. That would be pretty good evidence towards Islam being true, too, if they included the name in there. That would make it a more believable 'prophecy' instead of Muhammad's Jew-killing fantasy.


Wait, what? I was never arguing that there was absolute freedom of speech. I said they were free to mock religions, as they do, which incudes Muhammad getting mocked. I agree that there shouldn't be special consideration for Jews.

Wah wah, no one will remember me. I don't see how that's relevant. Islam is growing very fast mainly due to birth rate, too. Sure, there are quite a few converts, I'd never deny that, but the main reason for the continued growth of Islam (and Christianity) is birth-rate and childhood indoctrination. Yes, I'm sure you can't wait for world-wide caliphate so those who mock Muhammad can be killed lawfully.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Horrible. The teacher should not have been killed.

What the teacher did was absolutely wrong. Hate begets hate. I think France should make a law making it illegal to insult Prophet Mohammad (SAW). In fact that law should include other religious figures. The freedom of expression should not be used as a disguise to insult a religious figure.

That’s a great solution. Should make a law against cow slaughter too. Cow is revered in Hindu religion. Sentiments of my Hindu friends must also be considered.

Next, Pakistan should also ban cow slaughter. After all hate begets hate.

 

[Gilly]

That’s a great solution. Should make a law against cow slaughter too. Cow is revered in Hindu religion. Sentiments of my Hindu friends must also be considered.

Next, Pakistan should also ban cow slaughter. After all hate begets hate.

In Australian aboriginal culture it is offensive to mention the name of a dead person, make a law for that too.

 

[KingKhanWC]

An omniscient god or his prophet could easily know that a land called Israel would be established about 1400 years in the future. That would be pretty good evidence towards Islam being true, too, if they included the name in there. That would make it a more believable 'prophecy' instead of Muhammad's Jew-killing fantasy.


Wait, what? I was never arguing that there was absolute freedom of speech. I said they were free to mock religions, as they do, which incudes Muhammad getting mocked. I agree that there shouldn't be special consideration for Jews.

Wah wah, no one will remember me. I don't see how that's relevant. Islam is growing very fast mainly due to birth rate, too. Sure, there are quite a few converts, I'd never deny that, but the main reason for the continued growth of Islam (and Christianity) is birth-rate and childhood indoctrination. Yes, I'm sure you can't wait for world-wide caliphate so those who mock Muhammad can be killed lawfully.

Of course God knows but this prophecy wasnt for God, it was for people aka human beings.

They are not free to mock religions as proven.

It should be relevant because you are achieving sweet fa by your daily rants against this faith. Regardless of the reasons, Islam is in every corner of the world, followed by people of all colours, creed, status.

Carry on wasting your time but I suggest find a new hobby perhaps art? I would suggest being careful though, its wrong to kill but in reality in the world we live in, you might get hurt. Stay safe, I have nothing further to add as you're boring me now.

 

[KingKhanWC]

In Australian aboriginal culture it is offensive to mention the name of a dead person, make a law for that too.

Wont happen, when the colonalists arrived to the beautiful land known as Australia today, they wiped out an entire race and since there has been widespread discrimination against those folk. Like France, such nations have a history brutal bloody racism. It might be 2020, no more races being wiped out but the condition of the native people is still horrible.

 

[Madplayer]

A very sad event for muslims, horrifying in its effect.

Muslims are better off ignoring these kind of things because the west doesnt care about their feelings and they won't stop hurting their sentiments anyway. What will killing a person achieve in such a case? It will only want them to do more of insulting and provoking and hence, even logically speaking it is counter-productive.

 

[The Viper]

France teacher attack: Police raid homes of suspected Islamic radicals

French police have raided the homes of dozens of suspected Islamic radicals following the beheading of a teacher who showed controversial cartoons of Prophet Muhammad to his pupils.

Some of those being questioned are believed to have posted messages of support for the killer of Samuel Paty.

The government also said it was investigating 51 French Muslim associations.

Police shot dead Mr Paty's suspected killer on Friday in a Paris suburb.

On Monday, Interior Minister Gerard Darmanin said some of the Muslim associations would be shut down. He said the operations sent a message that there was "no respite for enemies of the republic", and that they were expected to continue all week.

Meanwhile, around 80 people would be interviewed by police, Mr Darmanin added.

Some are believed to have posted messages in support of Mr Paty's killer while others are from associations - such as the Collective Against Islamophobia - that the government believes propagate a permanent message of defiance to the French state.

On its website, the collective describes itself as a "human rights organisation whose mission is to combat Islamophobia" that partners with the United Nations among other institutions.

Mr Paty was murdered in the Paris suburb Conflans-Sainte-Honorine. An 18-year-old born in Moscow of Chechen origin was shot dead by police on Friday.

What's the latest in the investigation?
Anti-terrorism Prosecutor Jean-François Ricard said Mr Paty had been the target of threats since he showed the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad during a class about freedom of speech.

As he had done in similar lessons in recent years, Mr Paty, a history and geography teacher, advised Muslim students to look away if they thought they might be offended.

Depictions of Prophet Muhammad can cause serious offence to Muslims because Islamic tradition explicitly forbids images of Muhammad and Allah.

The issue is particularly sensitive in France because of the famous publishing of cartoons of Prophet Muhammad by satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo. A trial is currently underway over the killing of 12 people by Islamist extremists at the magazine offices in 2015.

Some French-Muslims say they are frequent targets of racism and discrimination because of their faith - an issue that has long caused tension in the country.

Eleven people have been arrested as part of the police investigation into Mr Paty's murder. No more information on the arrests is available.

What has the reaction been in France?
The attack has shocked and horrified France. Thousands gathered at weekend rallies to honour Mr Paty with people carrying placards reading "Je suis enseignant" (I am a teacher).

At the Place de la République in Paris, one person carried a sign saying "zero tolerance to all enemies of the Republic". Another person's placard said, "I am a professor. I'm thinking of you, Samuel."

President Emmanuel Macron said the attack bore all the hallmarks of an "Islamist terrorist attack" and the teacher had been murdered because he "taught freedom of expression".

Islamists would not be allowed to sleep quietly in France, Mr Macron was quoted as saying in a cabinet meeting on Sunday.

What happened on Friday?
Mr Ricard said that the suspect, who lived in the Normandy town of Évreux, about 100km (60 miles) from the murder scene, went to Mr Paty's school in Conflans-Sainte-Honorine on Friday afternoon and asked students to point out the teacher.

The suspect had no apparent connection with the teacher or the school.

He followed Mr Paty as he walked home from work. The suspect used a knife to attack the teacher in the head, and then beheaded him.

Witnesses are said to have heard the attacker shout "Allahu Akbar", or "God is Greatest".

As police approached him, he fired at them with an airgun. Officers returned fire, hitting him nine times. A 30cm-long (12in) blade was found close by.

Authorities said the man had been before courts but only on minor misdemeanour charges.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54598546

 

[miandadrules]

According to reports, he gave permission to Muslim students to leave the classroom, as they may be offended by what was to be discussed.

 

[MenInG]

According to reports, he gave permission to Muslim students to leave the classroom, as they may be offended by what was to be discussed.

Set aside the murder aspect as that is vile and despicable in any value system.

What is the fascination to use Islam to display your sense of freedom? Especially when it is known that Islam holds the Prophet PBUH as a key pillar of their religion.

 

[Vegitto1]

you can do all of this in US that's why I don't have a big problem with this situation happening here because its a principled stance where everything can be touched because of freedom of expression

but the picking and choosing in Europe is disgusting and a bit bigoted

USA
Executive Order to stop anti-semitism

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-combating-anti-semitism/

Holocaust Denial and display of Nazi symbol

Sixteen European countries and Israel have laws against Holocaust denial, the denial of the systematic genocidal killing of approximately six million Jews in Europe by Nazi Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. Many countries also have broader laws that criminalize genocide denial. Of the countries that ban Holocaust denial, some, such as Austria, Germany, Hungary, and Romania, were among the perpetrators of the Holocaust, and many of these also ban other elements associated with Nazism, such as the display of Nazi symbols.

Please also look at the list of convictions

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial

And very recently in the UK
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ds-holocaust-denial-conviction-against-singer

Conviction upheld against an “artist” who penned lyrics denying the Holocaust.

Freedom of expression is applied selectively and there is no better example than the preferential treatment given to Jews around the world. They don’t need to do anything because the law acts for them.

If laws are introduced to protect Muslims sentiments then people will not take matters into their own hands.

 

[JaDed]

USA
Executive Order to stop anti-semitism

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-combating-anti-semitism/

Holocaust Denial and display of Nazi symbol

Sixteen European countries and Israel have laws against Holocaust denial, the denial of the systematic genocidal killing of approximately six million Jews in Europe by Nazi Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. Many countries also have broader laws that criminalize genocide denial. Of the countries that ban Holocaust denial, some, such as Austria, Germany, Hungary, and Romania, were among the perpetrators of the Holocaust, and many of these also ban other elements associated with Nazism, such as the display of Nazi symbols.

Please also look at the list of convictions

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial

And very recently in the UK
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ds-holocaust-denial-conviction-against-singer

Conviction upheld against an “artist” who penned lyrics denying the Holocaust.

Freedom of expression is applied selectively and there is no better example than the preferential treatment given to Jews around the world. They don’t need to do anything because the law acts for them.

If laws are introduced to protect Muslims sentiments then people will not take matters into their own hands.

Jews will not replace us.” When 300 neo-Nazis marched with flaming torches through the central quad of the University of Virginia on a late Friday evening in August 2017, their message was clear. The college’s response, in contrast, was a study in confusion. As a public institution, wrote then-President Teresa Sullivan, the university “must abide by state and federal law” regarding the First Amendment rights of free speech and freedom of assembly. Short of barring the “torch-bearing protesters” as an imminent threat to safety, university officials’ hands were tied. National Jewish organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee concurred, denouncing the shocking display of hatred but urging the public to let the “protesters” voice their “protected speech.”

Yet after the violent weekend that led to one death and multiple casualties, UVA lawyers unearthed a decades-old state law still on the books that banned the burning of objects on private or public property “with the intent of intimidating any person or group of persons.” It turned out that the Virginia General Assembly had dealt with this very problem back in the early 1950s, when the Ku Klux Klan tried to launch a new campaign in the state. The legal means to prevent this racist and anti-Semitic menace without violating the First Amendment had existed. No one had remembered to look for it.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/lost-history-jews-and-civil-rights/590929/

 

[JaDed]

A very sad event for muslims, horrifying in its effect.

Muslims are better off ignoring these kind of things because the west doesnt care about their feelings and they won't stop hurting their sentiments anyway. What will killing a person achieve in such a case? It will only want them to do more of insulting and provoking and hence, even logically speaking it is counter-productive.

West doesn't care about religious feelings I'm sure you have seen South Park, SNL etc etc the way they mock evangelists, Christians its there for everyone to see., even something as recent as The Righteous Gemstones on HBO shows how west is ok with criticism.

 

[Bigboii]

USA
Executive Order to stop anti-semitism

https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-combating-anti-semitism/

Holocaust Denial and display of Nazi symbol

Sixteen European countries and Israel have laws against Holocaust denial, the denial of the systematic genocidal killing of approximately six million Jews in Europe by Nazi Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. Many countries also have broader laws that criminalize genocide denial. Of the countries that ban Holocaust denial, some, such as Austria, Germany, Hungary, and Romania, were among the perpetrators of the Holocaust, and many of these also ban other elements associated with Nazism, such as the display of Nazi symbols.

Please also look at the list of convictions

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_Holocaust_denial

And very recently in the UK
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ds-holocaust-denial-conviction-against-singer

Conviction upheld against an “artist” who penned lyrics denying the Holocaust.

Freedom of expression is applied selectively and there is no better example than the preferential treatment given to Jews around the world. They don’t need to do anything because the law acts for them.

If laws are introduced to protect Muslims sentiments then people will not take matters into their own hands.

didn't know that man cause right wing/ racist people constantly talk smack about holocaust, Jews so I thought if they were doing it than it must be legal cause I never saw them getting jailed for it

but one thing I have to point out here is that its an executive order not a "law" per say its a temporary thing


I know I am in the minority but what if we just make all of it legal criticism of Jews/ holocausts, cartoon of Muhammad PBUH
cause I think we can't ban everything because Islam is an "idea" (for non Muslims at least) and any idea should be criticized made fun of

So where can we draw the line between criticism of an idea and public sentiments so I personally think don't even draw a line in the first place

I am genuinely curious what do people think about this? Freedom of speech > Public sentiment (remember it should be applicable to every idea/ religion not just Islam like it is right know)

 

[JaDed]

didn't know that man cause right wing/ racist people constantly talk smack about holocaust, Jews so I thought if they were doing it than it must be legal cause I never saw them getting jailed for it

but one thing I have to point out here is that its an executive order not a "law" per say its a temporary thing


I know I am in the minority but what if we just make all of it legal criticism of Jews/ holocausts, cartoon of Muhammad PBUH
cause I think we can't ban everything because Islam is an "idea" (for non Muslims at least) and any idea should be criticized made fun of

So where can we draw the line between criticism of an idea and public sentiments so I personally think don't even draw a line in the first place

I am genuinely curious what do people think about this? Freedom of speech > Public sentiment (remember it should be applicable to every idea/ religion not just Islam like it is right know)

National Jewish organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee concurred, denouncing the shocking display of hatred but urging the public to let the “protesters” voice their “protected speech.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/06/lost-history-jews-and-civil-rights/590929/

 

[miandadrules]

Set aside the murder aspect as that is vile and despicable in any value system.

What is the fascination to use Islam to display your sense of freedom? Especially when it is known that Islam holds the Prophet PBUH as a key pillar of their religion.

Are you asking me for my personal opinion or for an explanation of the stance taken by the french authorities? As I don’t agree with them on much.

 

[ishtiaq_ctg]

What a despicable act. Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) faced several insults and abuse in his lifetime and never punished anyone for those acts of insults specifically. Perpetrators of these heinous acts should be punished as soon as possible.

 

[Gilly]

What a despicable act. Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) faced several insults and abuse in his lifetime and never punished anyone for those acts of insults specifically. Perpetrators of these heinous acts should be punished as soon as possible.

Who decided that there should be no pictures of him, genuine question because I imagine at the time there were very few people with the ability to produce pictures.

 

[miandadrules]

What a despicable act. Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) faced several insults and abuse in his lifetime and never punished anyone for those acts of insults specifically. Perpetrators of these heinous acts should be punished as soon as possible.

According to the Hadith he did.

 

[Nadeemp]

Please educate yourself.


You cant even criticise Israel political idelogly let alone Jews.



https://www.france24.com/en/2019120...m-with-anti-semitism-is-going-very-far-afield

Go do an experiement. Stand outside the French Parliament with a placard saying 'Jewish Terrorism in Israel must stop'. You will be eating porridge in jail.

Sorry for the late response. Had something come up at work plus had to read all 32 pages of that article. The above link is a bill, NOT a law. Not yet .

 

[Nadeemp]

Yasir Qadhi makes some good points about this incident.

https://www.facebook.com/yasir.qadhi/posts/10158283891068300

On the French Terrorist Attack

A teacher has been killed in France by a lone Muslim after displaying provocative cartoons in his classroom.

Every time such an incident happens, the same groups respond in the same manners. Almost all people have an instantaneous emotional reaction, and very few are able to take a step back and look at multiple facets in this complex narrative.

For Macron and the anti-Muslim Far Right establishment, this isolated attack fits perfectly into their broader narrative of the incompatibility of Islam in their society. Hence, Macron jumps on this murder and politicizes it immediately, fully aware that he is going to rise in the polls as a result.

For disenfranchised Muslims, some of whom are sympathetic to the attack itself, quoting snippets of fiqh works and hadiths out of context is sufficient to legitimize this act. These individuals have neither studied uṣūl al-fiqh (which would preclude vigilante justice in all circumstances) nor give any weight to the concept of maṣāliḥ and mafāsid (as there is no question that the harms to come out of such attacks to the entire Ummah far outweigh the harms of the initial, localized provocation - what would have potentially emotionally hurt a few people in a classroom is now going to backlash on an entire nation's community and policies).

For the conspiracy theorists, any and all such incidents are plots of the CIA, Mossad, or other shadowy nefarious entities that somehow control every leaf that falls. For these people, no Muslim is ever to blame and no extremism actually exists. To compound this narrative, there are undoubtedly some confirmed incidents of government provocation, hence one is genuinely confused as to what to say or not to say; but no person can deny that there is a real trend of extremist thought within our ranks, no matter how small it might be (even as we acknowledge that at times certain entities entrap or entice such behaviour for their own purposes).

For most mainstream Muslims who condemn, the condemnations are simply worthless, and they realize it. No matter what they say or do, the Right has already made up its mind and such 'apologies' fall on deaf ears, and the Left understands that most Muslims are not blood-thirsty killers hence no need for the disclaimers. If they don't condemn, they are called out for their silence; if they do condemn, it's not good enough: damned if you do damned if you don't! As well, the more such mainstream Muslims condemn this terror, the more some members of their own community begin turning away from mainstream body due to the servile nature of these apologies. "Does the Establishment ever apologize to *us* for what they have been doing for the last two centuries?" they bellow. Frankly, such disavowals from the 'moderate' Muslim leaders directly fuel the anger in a small minority, who already view the mainstream Muslim community as being sell-outs and liberal Muslims in the first place. To compound this problem, many mainstream leaders (and even some clerics) don't directly address the fiqh texts involved, and simply proclaim liberalist views as being fully Islamic. There are texts and fiqh issues that need to be discussed frankly- hardly anyone has done that (still!).

What needs to happen is a more balanced narrative: one that takes time to explain, and requires an open heart and mind to listen to. In the absence of either of these two factors, it is almost impossible to begin a fruitful conversation.

This random act is not stemming from a classical ruling on blasphemy. Such provocations against our religion and Prophet have happened constantly around the globe for the last millennia. Rarely are they met with such violence.

This act needs to be understood in the broader socio-political framework of French Muslims vs. the French Establishment. The visceral anger and rage that causes one to 'snap' doesn't happen by reading a fatwa on blasphemy: it comes from a lifetime, or even generations, of systematic dehumanization and rejection. This is not to justify the attack; it is to contextualize it.

Where does one begin? France's invasion of Algeria, and the murdering of over 1.5 million of its inhabitants during its colonization, is just a brief over-looked chapter in French history books. The sheer brutality with which the French dealt with their Algerian citizens needs to be learned by all of us (side note: 'The Battle of Algiers' is a great award-winning movie to introduce this subject). As well, the visceral hatred and disdain that the French had and continue to have, and display at all levels, for the cultures and religion of the very populations that they pillaged and raped, and the second-class citizenship that N. African Muslims occupy in that country to this day, are more direct cause for the violence than any verse or hadith. The blatant hypocrisy of "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" as these three factors are constantly denied to the Muslim citizens of that land all exacerbate the feelings of anger, frustration, and disenfranchisement. The ghettoization of the community, and the social barriers placed on them from birth, education, university placement, jobs, promotions, and social status are well known. In my own travels across Europe, and from my anecdotal encounters with European and Western Muslims, I know of no Western society that is more anti-Muslim than France.

Simply put: one cannot discuss or understand (much less prevent) such isolated attacks without a discussion of the broader treatment of North Africans, and even of the religion itself, in that land. Sadly, the knee-jerk reaction from both sides typically further entrenches the stubborn attitudes and reinforces the narrative of each side.

It's a complex situation, and one that does not bode well for civil society unless it is resolved with wisdom, foresight, and a long-term commitment to the greater good of all parties involved.

The gentleman was no algerian. Was from Chechnaya. So none of those reasons apply. Plus killing of people due to slight to their religion is not a french phenomenon . The murderer of Salman Tasser was not subjugated to french atrocities. There are many other examples to give.

 

[Nadeemp]

https://www.ivir.nl/publicaties/download/Limits_to_expression_on_religion_in_France.pdf

I would prefer you back your words with actions. Please go take a placard outside French parliament stating 'Stop Jewish Settler Terrorism'. This will give you plenty of reading time.

Sorry doe delayed response. Had to read 29 pages of this opinion piece. After reading, i concur
there is NO law against freedom of speech when it comes to criticising religion. You can make fun and ridicule jewish scripture, just like you can criticize islamic and christian scripture. You can make fun of moses, jesus or mohammed if you choose to. You CANT challenge holocaust. I dont know why you would challenge the holocaust. But i am against that too. You should be able to challenge it if you please and i have stated that multiple times in this thread.

 

[Nadeemp]

According to you it's freedom of speech in France, so please go do it and get back to us after.

I dont need to i know anyone can.

 

[Nadeemp]

lol, Israel as a nation never existed at this time, so again please use some common sense. I cannot control what you believe but majority of scholars who actually know about Islam , confirm this is a prophecy.

Your bolded words are another common sign of anti religion and esp anti Islamic mindset. This is basically lying , putting words into peoples mouths, another sign of extremism.

You havent address the key and main point because you cant. There is NO freedom of speech in France as proven but freedom to spread hate against Islam.

The irony is the Muslim population is growing and not decling , for many reasons but one is many people esp in the western world are becoming Muslims. Not only do you not have strong arguments , you are wasting your time, you dont have the power and neither does Macron or all the extremist secularists to stop Islam being followed on this planet. You will be dead, long forgetton, with nobody even remembering you in a 100 years time but Islam will still be in every corner of the world. Good job not.

Speaking like a brainwashed religious fanatic. Who is converting to islam? I think all religions arre losing followers . Thats the current trend.

 

[Nadeemp]

Horrible. The teacher should not have been killed.

What the teacher did was absolutely wrong. Hate begets hate. I think France should make a law making it illegal to insult Prophet Mohammad (SAW). In fact that law should include other religious figures. The freedom of expression should not be used as a disguise to insult a religious figure.

I have to disagree with you there. Pakistan has those laws. How is it doing

 

[Gilly]

Sorry doe delayed response. Had to read 29 pages of this opinion piece. After reading, i concur
there is NO law against freedom of speech when it comes to criticising religion. You can make fun and ridicule jewish scripture, just like you can criticize islamic and christian scripture. You can make fun of moses, jesus or mohammed if you choose to. You CANT challenge holocaust. I dont know why you would challenge the holocaust. But i am against that too. You should be able to challenge it if you please and i have stated that multiple times in this thread.

Not so much now but in europe they were many thousands of families that had members killed in the gas chambers by the nazis. To deny that they had been killed after the war could have easily escalated and or sparked further fighting.

To give you an example and I dont like doing this but I dont think some people understand the signifigance of the holocaust. Imagine if I was to deny that people were shot in mosques in NZ and it was all a media beat up. Quite rightly I would be arrested and charged.

 

[Vegitto1]

didn't know that man cause right wing/ racist people constantly talk smack about holocaust, Jews so I thought if they were doing it than it must be legal cause I never saw them getting jailed for it

but one thing I have to point out here is that its an executive order not a "law" per say its a temporary thing


I know I am in the minority but what if we just make all of it legal criticism of Jews/ holocausts, cartoon of Muhammad PBUH
cause I think we can't ban everything because Islam is an "idea" (for non Muslims at least) and any idea should be criticized made fun of

So where can we draw the line between criticism of an idea and public sentiments so I personally think don't even draw a line in the first place

I am genuinely curious what do people think about this? Freedom of speech > Public sentiment (remember it should be applicable to every idea/ religion not just Islam like it is right know)

As a practising lawyer, I can tell you that no “human rights article” is absolute. This includes freedom of speech.

You may be familiar with the law of defamation. It prevents people from smearing someone’s reputation without evidence.

Similarly laws against hate speech and discrimination govern our daily lives. I cannot refuse to employ someone based on their religion, sex, colour etc. Why not? It’s my business, it should be my right to decide the criteria right?

We will not function as a society if we allow absolute rights because we will ultimately use of rights to inflict pain and misery on others, that’s how we humans are since time immemorial.

As I said in my first post in this thread, debate in a controlled environment on sensitive issues should be allowed and encouraged. Using “freedom of speech and expression” to cause offence and insult should be discouraged actively by the Law.

 

[El Generico]

That’s a great solution. Should make a law against cow slaughter too. Cow is revered in Hindu religion. Sentiments of my Hindu friends must also be considered.

Next, Pakistan should also ban cow slaughter. After all hate begets hate.

Doesnt make any sense. 99.99% of people who eat beef don’t do it to offend or hurt Hindu sentiments.while on the other hand the purpose of these cartoons is only to offend. Beef has been part of the human diet for a very long time and most eat it as source of protein . On the other hand can you think of any reason for the cartoons expect to cause offense and spread hate?

 

[Nadeemp]

As a practising lawyer, I can tell you that no “human rights article” is absolute. This includes freedom of speech.

You may be familiar with the law of defamation. It prevents people from smearing someone’s reputation without evidence.

Similarly laws against hate speech and discrimination govern our daily lives. I cannot refuse to employ someone based on their religion, sex, colour etc. Why not? It’s my business, it should be my right to decide the criteria right?

We will not function as a society if we allow absolute rights because we will ultimately use of rights to inflict pain and misery on others, that’s how we humans are since time immemorial.

As I said in my first post in this thread, debate in a controlled environment on sensitive issues should be allowed and encouraged. Using “freedom of speech and expression” to cause offence and insult should be discouraged actively by the Law.

I agree with you there. Freedom of speech is not absolute. 100 percent agreed and you gave great examples for that. However religion can be ridiculed, challenged, confronted. Religion makes very bold claims. Results are not what they claim to be. Have you ever seen Monty phython " LIFE OF BRIAN", have you seen any of Mel Brooks work, criticizing Judaism? There are countless books written on Christianity and Judaism that ridicule it in very very strong terms. No violence ever occured. Counter points have been written . The same is not true for islam. At the slightest offense people take to the street, threaten, kill. Thats not acceptable. Now i dont agree with the whole Charlie Hebdo thing. Those cartoons were only made for one thing. To get a violent reaction out of the muslims. And they got that and more. If you ignore them. They will try 2-3 more times and if they get no reaction , will move on to something else. Its Shocking to see so many people on here who sympathize with the idea that violence was the correct answer. Shocking

 

[Vegitto1]

I agree with you there. Freedom of speech is not absolute. 100 percent agreed and you gave great examples for that. However religion can be ridiculed, challenged, confronted. Religion makes very bold claims. Results are not what they claim to be. Have you ever seen Monty phython " LIFE OF BRIAN", have you seen any of Mel Brooks work, criticizing Judaism? There are countless books written on Christianity and Judaism that ridicule it in very very strong terms. No violence ever occured. Counter points have been written . The same is not true for islam. At the slightest offense people take to the street, threaten, kill. Thats not acceptable. Now i dont agree with the whole Charlie Hebdo thing. Those cartoons were only made for one thing. To get a violent reaction out of the muslims. And they got that and more. If you ignore them. They will try 2-3 more times and if they get no reaction , will move on to something else. Its Shocking to see so many people on here who sympathize with the idea that violence was the correct answer. Shocking

Let me tell you something. When I visit Pakistan, I see a lot of hypocrisy in day to day life. Dishonesty, lying, gossiping, back biting and the list goes on.

The reason is education. Unfortunately the followers of Islam are not the most educated as opposed to their counterparts. They don’t understand that religion is belief in all mighty and a set of rules/laws to govern our lives. Be good to fellow humans, follow the law of the land and everything else is a matter between you and your God.

Most people here would agree that in the West, Islamic principles (For me, in terms of how to live your life, there isn’t much difference in religions, all teach you humanity above everything else) are seen in day to day life as opposed to Muslim nations. The reason again is education.

Western society has evolved and now laws are made in Parliament etc. But even they believe in the overarching theory of Natural law. All man made laws are an off-shoot of the Ten Commandments.

People who ridicule religion do so based on those who practise it rigidly not understand that most religious text is ambiguous so that I could be applied to all times. I.e in Islam, we are told to keep ourselves clean. Now there are many products for bodily hygiene but if someone insists on using the methods used during 1400s then that’s lack of their understanding and education not the fault of that religion.

Ultimately the only way out of this mess is educating the masses. Which would make them harder to control by the ruling elite in the Middle East and Sub-continent and therefore it is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

There is no such thing as vigilante justice in Islam. This murderer has brought more scrutiny and potential aggression towards muslims through is inhumane actions

 

[Romali_rotti]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/w8BhUOfd97o" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

..

 

[MenInG]

French authorities have said they will close a well-known mosque in a northern Paris suburb as part of their clampdown on Islamist groups and suspected extremists after a history teacher was beheaded last week outside his school.

As a police investigation continued into networks suspected of promoting extreme religious beliefs, spreading hate and encouraging violence, the interior minister, Gérald Darmanin, said the mosque in Pantin would be closed on Wednesday for six months.

A source close to the investigation said the mosque, which has about 1,500 worshippers, had posted a Facebook video about Samuel Paty days before the 47-year-old history and geography teacher was decapitated last Friday.

The video violently criticised Paty’s decision to show his class – after giving Muslim pupils the chance to leave if they felt uncomfortable – two caricatures of the prophet Muhammad alongside other cartoons as part of a class discussion on free speech.

The education minister, Jean-Michel Blanquer, said on Tuesday that Paty would be posthumously awarded France’s highest award, the Légion d’Honneur. A national ceremony will be held in his honour at the Sorbonne University in Paris on Wednesday.

The teacher was stabbed and beheaded outside his secondary school in Conflans-Sainte-Honorine, about 20 miles north-west of Paris, by an 18-year-old of Chechen origin named as Abdullakh Anzorov who was shot dead by police soon afterwards.

Paris prosecutors said on Tuesday they had opened an investigation into a French neo-Nazi website hosted abroad that had republished the photo of Paty’s decapitated corpse posted to Twitter by the killer.

A junior interior minister, Marlène Schiappa, met on Tuesday with senior executives from social media platforms including Facebook, Twitter and Snapchat to discuss ways of better combating what the ministry called “cyber-Islamicism”.

French officials and politicians have said Paty’s killing should prove a catalyst for new legislation in France – and possibly the EU – aimed at making social media platforms more accountable for the content they host.

Paty’s murder was preceded by a fierce online campaign against the teacher and the school, led by the father of a pupil who had not attended the lesson. He posted a number of videos calling for Paty’s dismissal, one of which the mosque shared.

Both the father and Abdelhakim Sefrioui, a well-known Islamist radical who also posted videos online and campaigned for Paty’s removal, were among 16 people arrested in connection with the killing, including four members of Anzorov’s family.

Four pupils from the school who were suspected of having accepted payment for pointing Paty out to the attacker were also among those in custody on Tuesday.

The education ministry categorically denied rumours circulating, particularly on far-right websites, that the local education authority had been preparing to reprimand Paty for having shown the caricatures. The ministry said the teacher had behaved entirely appropriately and had been assured of the authority’s full support.

Darmanin on Monday accused Sefriou and the father of issuing a “fatwa” against Paty. The head of the Pantin mosque, M’hammed Henniche, said on Tuesday he had shared the video because he felt Muslim children were being being singled out in class.

Authorities are targeting suspect groups within the Muslim community and have said they expected to dissolve several of them. Darmanin and the French president, Emmanuel Macron, were due to attend a special meeting of the national anti-Islamist committee on Tuesday.

Macron is under pressure to come up with an effective response to the latest in a series of Islamist terror attacks that have rocked France since the 2015 Charlie Hebdo massacre, in which 12 people were killed in the offices of the satirical weekly after it published cartoons of the prophet Muhammad.

More than 240 people have died from Islamist violence since 2015, prompting opposition politicians – particularly on the right – to accuse the government of waging a battle of words rather than taking decisive action.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...r-france-says-minister?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[trying_2b_object]

Those cartoons were only made for one thing. To get a violent reaction out of the muslims. And they got that and more. If you ignore them. They will try 2-3 more times and if they get no reaction , will move on to something else.

Couldn't agree more. It is almost laughable how Muslims end up popularizing anti-Muslim fringe entities.

 

[Tubs]

A very sad event for muslims, horrifying in its effect.

Muslims are better off ignoring these kind of things because the west doesnt care about their feelings and they won't stop hurting their sentiments anyway. What will killing a person achieve in such a case? It will only want them to do more of insulting and provoking and hence, even logically speaking it is counter-productive.

Finally, someone who gets it.

 

[Nadeemp]

Couldn't agree more. It is almost laughable how Muslims end up popularizing anti-Muslim fringe entities.

If muslims had not made a big deal out of salman rushdie affair maybe the muslim society would have been more open/tolerant to these sort of things.

 

[MenInG]

Seven people will appear before an anti-terrorism judge as part of an investigation into the beheading of a school teacher in France.

Samuel Paty, 47, was attacked shortly after he showed cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad to his pupils.

The attacker, 18-year-old Abdullakh Anzorov, was shot dead by police.

Two minors as well as a parent who reportedly exchanged text messages with the killer are among those who will appear in court on Wednesday.

Mr Paty was subject to an online hate campaign after he showed the cartoons in two lessons about free speech earlier this month.

 

[Kriketer]

What a goon to harm Muslims in general with this heinous murder. Let the dogs bark and they will disappear themselves if you don't pay attention to them, that's what you simply do with Islamophobes.

Muslim students should have simply gone through the mgmt and education board to file a complain. Any Teacher doing something similar in US or Canada will likely be expelled on the spot. This student has done more harm to Islam and Muslim's image. Islam and Prophet don't approve of such reaction so it just boggles my mind how extremist in our religion keep making it hard for the rest of Muslims. As said let the dogs bark, they aren't worth giving attention to and go through proper channels to raise such concerns at any professional setup.

 

[Madplayer]

West doesn't care about religious feelings I'm sure you have seen South Park, SNL etc etc the way they mock evangelists, Christians its there for everyone to see., even something as recent as The Righteous Gemstones on HBO shows how west is ok with criticism.

I understand that. What i care about it the bigger picture. Forget emotions, morals etc for a moment. Will such an action put an end to mocking of our religion? Surely not. Will it in fact make it worse for muslims? Very likely yes. So why do it then if the goal will certainly not be achieved through such a method and if it will make things worse? It doesnt make sense.

A civil debate and a critique is different and welcome but mocking our religious figures hurts us. A non-muslim perhaps will never understand what goes through the mind and heart of an average muslim when he hears or sees such stuff. Perhaps we internalize religion more deeply than others. If others want to degrade their own religious figures then by all means do it. We dont want it done to ours, it's plain and simple. However, violence is certainly not going to help put it to a halt. It's best to ignore it and not become whipping boys for the global right wing.

 

[JaDed]

I understand that. What i care about it the bigger picture. Forget emotions, morals etc for a moment. Will such an action put an end to mocking of our religion? Surely not. Will it in fact make it worse for muslims? Very likely yes. So why do it then if the goal will certainly not be achieved through such a method and if it will make things worse? It doesnt make sense.

A civil debate and a critique is different and welcome but mocking our religious figures hurts us. A non-muslim perhaps will never understand what goes through the mind and heart of an average muslim when he hears or sees such stuff. Perhaps we internalize religion more deeply than others. If others want to degrade their own religious figures then by all means do it. We dont want it done to ours, it's plain and simple. However, violence is certainly not going to help put it to a halt. It's best to ignore it and not become whipping boys for the global right wing.

The ones who mock aren't religious, I see many Americans who are very religious- they don't watch these shows and absolutely hate how they are represented in media, religious people take their religion seriously its nothing specific to Muslims.

 

[Bigboii]

I understand that. What i care about it the bigger picture. Forget emotions, morals etc for a moment. Will such an action put an end to mocking of our religion? Surely not. Will it in fact make it worse for muslims? Very likely yes. So why do it then if the goal will certainly not be achieved through such a method and if it will make things worse? It doesnt make sense.

A civil debate and a critique is different and welcome but mocking our religious figures hurts us. A non-muslim perhaps will never understand what goes through the mind and heart of an average muslim when he hears or sees such stuff. Perhaps we internalize religion more deeply than others. If others want to degrade their own religious figures then by all means do it. We dont want it done to ours, it's plain and simple. However, violence is certainly not going to help put it to a halt. It's best to ignore it and not become whipping boys for the global right wing.

In france lefties are also Islamophobes...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The ones who mock aren't religious, I see many Americans who are very religious- they don't watch these shows and absolutely hate how they are represented in media, religious people take their religion seriously its nothing specific to Muslims.

Interestingly I have seen many British writers and readers on news sites complaining that Christians are too soft, the ones who mock Christians would never dare do it to Muslims.

 

[Bigboii]

With France problem is not thier clamp down on mosques because every country including muslims clamped down on salafist mosques but it's thier bigoted treatment towards muslims in general that's not present in any other western democracy that is the root cause of this problem

For example municipality refuse to issue mosque licences and thousands of muslims are forced to pray near sewer
Not getting jobs, police harassment and many other petty things done by french society against muslims

That's why I fear this situation because they would never go after the salafist (responsible for radicalization) but they would add petty laws to get back at the muslims and they'll be stuck in this cycle...

 

[Nadeemp]

Interestingly I have seen many British writers and readers on news sites complaining that Christians are too soft, the ones who mock Christians would never dare do it to Muslims.

Well in general if you mock christians your life is not in danger. Where as if u mock islam you might have to go into hiding

 

[Nadeemp]

With France problem is not thier clamp down on mosques because every country including muslims clamped down on salafist mosques but it's thier bigoted treatment towards muslims in general that's not present in any other western democracy that is the root cause of this problem

For example municipality refuse to issue mosque licences and thousands of muslims are forced to pray near sewer
Not getting jobs, police harassment and many other petty things done by french society against muslims

That's why I fear this situation because they would never go after the salafist (responsible for radicalization) but they would add petty laws to get back at the muslims and they'll be stuck in this cycle...

But the problem of muslims attacking others for slight of religion is not restricted to France only. It’s a world wide phenomenon. Something created by Muslims and now it’s out of control.

 

[Firebat]

Attacker paid students to identify French teacher before beheading, says prosecutor

PARIS (Reuters) - The Chechen teenager who beheaded a French teacher for showing caricatures of the Prophet Mohammad in class had paid students to identify him in front of the school, anti-terrorist public prosecutor Jean-Francois Ricard told a news conference.

Ricard also confirmed that contact had been established between the teenager and an angry parent at the school, northwest of Paris, who had called on social media for the teacher to be fired.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...efore-beheading-says-prosecutor-idUSKBN2761YX

 

[JaDed]

Interestingly I have seen many British writers and readers on news sites complaining that Christians are too soft, the ones who mock Christians would never dare do it to Muslims.

Yeah that is modern liberalism except France all "Liberals" indulge in that, mocking the majority religion but not the minority one.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

But the problem of muslims attacking others for slight of religion is not restricted to France only. It’s a world wide phenomenon. Something created by Muslims and now it’s out of control.

Well it's not really a problem, from what I've seen you don't get Muslims getting too bothered about attacking the religion, only seems to cross a line when it comes to mocking the Prophet PBUH. So easy answer would be to find someone else to mock, there are plenty of alternatives, and then you wouldn't have this worldwide problem.

 

[Kriketer]

But the problem of muslims attacking others for slight of religion is not restricted to France only. It’s a world wide phenomenon. Something created by Muslims and now it’s out of control.

Now don't make up idiotic claims. 99% Muslims wouldn't give two hoots about what haters do and will raise voice only peacefully. Problem lies with people like you as well who keep generalizing Muslims. Nothing is out of control, Muslims are 1.5 billion, if they were out of control then islamophobes wouldn't be around....no, this is not a threat before you jump to another conclusion, rather notion to what you are trying to falsely implying. 1.5 billion are well capable to cause world wide all out war if that was the case, but funny bit is only illegal wars were taken to their countries from the West. Read a history book for once and familiarize yourself from the consequences of illegal proxy wars.

 

[Nadeemp]

Now don't make up idiotic claims. 99% Muslims wouldn't give two hoots about what haters do and will raise voice only peacefully. Problem lies with people like you as well who keep generalizing Muslims. Nothing is out of control, Muslims are 1.5 billion, if they were out of control then islamophobes wouldn't be around....no, this is not a threat before you jump to another conclusion, rather notion to what you are trying to falsely implying. 1.5 billion are well capable to cause world wide all out war if that was the case, but funny bit is only illegal wars were taken to their countries from the West. Read a history book for once and familiarize yourself from the consequences of illegal proxy wars.

World wide problem means it’s not confined to one country . It’s happening in multiple places. Are 1.6 billion muslims blood thirsty fanatics. No. What percentage people of sympathizers ? I don’t know the answer to that. You write something against Islam , or even a perceived slight anywhere in the world and your life is in danger that point onwards.

 

[MenInG]

Just to make it clear for those who dont know or do so deliberately

When referring to the Last Prophet of Islam - make sure you add PBUH next to his name as a mark of respect for the Muslims on this forum and around the world.

I will simply delete posts which do not follow this simple rule.

Thanks

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

World wide problem means it’s not confined to one country . It’s happening in multiple places. Are 1.6 billion muslims blood thirsty fanatics. No. What percentage people of sympathizers ? I don’t know the answer to that. You write something against Islam , or even a perceived slight anywhere in the world and your life is in danger that point onwards.

Not sure that's accurate at all. There are lots of books critical of Islam, even a book written about the Prophet PBUH which are written from a Marxist point of view which are highly sceptical. As I said earlier, the stuff which is seen as crossing the line is when you get abusive caricatures of the Islamic holy figures, particularly Muhammed PBUH himself.

 

[Nadeemp]

Or burning of the Quran ( mind you i dont see any point why would you burn the Quran). Do you think a film could be made about islam like “life of Brian” And there would be no violent reaction?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Or burning of the Quran ( mind you i dont see any point why would you burn the Quran). Do you think a film could be made about islam like “life of Brian” And there would be no violent reaction?

Well the Quran and the Prophet PBUH are basically the two holy tenets of Islam, they are what arouse the most reaction for sure. From what I recall, Life of Brian was loosely supposed to be based on Jesus PBUH was it not? I've only seen clips of it, I think it was quite mild lampooning from what I remember. Just wry British humour not meant to be particularly offensive.

 

[Nadeemp]

I suggest you see it again. Do you think that level lampooning could be done to a film made on Islam.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I suggest you see it again. Do you think that level lampooning could be done to a film made on Islam.

I can't recall the level of lampooning to be honest, just one line along the lines of " he's not the messiah, just a very naughty boy" which I found quite funny. But then I'm not sure if that was actually meant to be the messiah himself or just a generic messiah.

If it was a movie made which was obviously meant to be mocking Muhammed PBUH himself, then no would be quite difficult to make that sort of a film on Islam. Which is why it's probably a good idea for those who want to explore such forms of entertainment to stick to other holy figures whose followers are more on board with it.

 

[Nadeemp]

I can't recall the level of lampooning to be honest, just one line along the lines of " he's not the messiah, just a very naughty boy" which I found quite funny. But then I'm not sure if that was actually meant to be the messiah himself or just a generic messiah.

If it was a movie made which was obviously meant to be mocking Muhammed PBUH himself, then no would be quite difficult to make that sort of a film on Islam. Which is why it's probably a good idea for those who want to explore such forms of entertainment to stick to other holy figures whose followers are more on board with it.

I would assume Jews hold Moses as Christians hold jesus in the same degree of respect as muslims do their Prophets . I would assume they are offended the same also. It’s just that they don’t resort to violence as a reaction to the particular situation . Muslims have to learn to do the same. That’s my whole point. Ok back to work before I get fired

 

[KingKhanWC]

Sorry doe delayed response. Had to read 29 pages of this opinion piece. After reading, i concur
there is NO law against freedom of speech when it comes to criticising religion. You can make fun and ridicule jewish scripture, just like you can criticize islamic and christian scripture. You can make fun of moses, jesus or mohammed if you choose to. You CANT challenge holocaust. I dont know why you would challenge the holocaust. But i am against that too. You should be able to challenge it if you please and i have stated that multiple times in this thread.

Nadeem bhai, you keep coming back for more.

It might have been difficult for you but here is news, simple and clear.

France has begun a crackdown on hate speech, arresting 54 people for anti-Semitism

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...or-anti-semitism-and-backing-terror-1.2066078

You are still pandering as if there is freedom of speech in France, there is not. There is no freedom of speech in the secular godless nations, this delusion makes you feel better.

Charlie Hebdo who are the Gods of athiests even sacked one of their cartoonits for a cartoon which hurt religous sentimemnts.

Please stop and learn before coming back for more.

 

[Technics 1210]

Nadeem bhai, you keep coming back for more.

It might have been difficult for you but here is news, simple and clear.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...or-anti-semitism-and-backing-terror-1.2066078

You are still pandering as if there is freedom of speech in France, there is not. There is no freedom of speech in the secular godless nations, this delusion makes you feel better.

Charlie Hebdo who are the Gods of athiests even sacked one of their cartoonits for a cartoon which hurt religous sentimemnts.

Please stop and learn before coming back for more.

I don't think the Nadeemp's of this world understand there are 2 laws, one against Holocaust denial, the other against anti-Semitism.

They just don't get it.

 

[Technics 1210]

[MENTION=43583]KingKhanWC[/MENTION]

TikTok’s new rules forbid ‘misinformation about notable Jewish individuals and families who are used as proxies to spread antisemitism’

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.in...e-soros-jews-misinformation-b1203511.html?amp

Weird and wacky theories on every other topic are permitted, but not Rothchilds, George Soros etc.

The article states that even claiming Soros was behind the BLM stunt, is anti-Semitic.

One law for one, another law for the rest. Then the establishment wonder why there is such resentment agasint Zionism. These guys won't even let you discuss. They shut you down.

But all other religions are game.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I don't think the Nadeemp's of this world understand there are 2 laws, one against Holocaust denial, the other against anti-Semitism.

They just don't get it.

Holocaust denial is the biggest proof there is no freedom of speech. Secular extremists will say but not only Jews were killed but the law is because of Jews not others. Denying this historical event can mean not accepting any detail ie questioning the methods or numbers of deaths. They will defend this but rant supporting freedom of speech. The hypocrisy is of such a foolish nature, it's hard to debate with such people.

 

[Technics 1210]

Holocaust denial is the biggest proof there is no freedom of speech. Secular extremists will say but not only Jews were killed but the law is because of Jews not others. Denying this historical event can mean not accepting any detail ie questioning the methods or numbers of deaths. They will defend this but rant supporting freedom of speech. The hypocrisy is of such a foolish nature, it's hard to debate with such people.

If the Holocaust is the truth, then there's no need for a law to protect it. Deniers can be refuted with ease.

You only need a law to protect a lie.

 

[Nadeemp]

Nadeem bhai, you keep coming back for more.

It might have been difficult for you but here is news, simple and clear.



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/wor...or-anti-semitism-and-backing-terror-1.2066078

You are still pandering as if there is freedom of speech in France, there is not. There is no freedom of speech in the secular godless nations, this delusion makes you feel better.

Charlie Hebdo who are the Gods of athiests even sacked one of their cartoonits for a cartoon which hurt religous sentimemnts.

Please stop and learn before coming back for more.

Did you even read the article. They were backing terror. Once again to my ORIGNAL point. There is no law against making cartoons or mocking jewish, christian or muslim prophets. NONE. The law of denial of holocaust is unfair as pointed out by me and multiple other people.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Did you even read the article. They were backing terror. Once again to my ORIGNAL point. There is no law against making cartoons or mocking jewish, christian or muslim prophets. NONE. The law of denial of holocaust is unfair as pointed out by me and multiple other people.

lol. It was a combination of both.

Try this "Among those detained was Dieudonné, a controversial comedian who has convictions for racism and anti-Semitism"

If its unfair thus there is NO freedom of speech so stop pretending there is.

 

[Kriketer]

World wide problem means it’s not confined to one country . It’s happening in multiple places. Are 1.6 billion muslims blood thirsty fanatics. No. What percentage people of sympathizers ? I don’t know the answer to that. You write something against Islam , or even a perceived slight anywhere in the world and your life is in danger that point onwards.

Again you are talking load of rubbish. Daily people pollute social media with extreme islamophobic posts and several media outlets, forums etc run hatefilled lies and propaganda against Islam and Prophets and nothing happens to them. Stop generalizing and getting carried away due to this incident. Extremism comes in all forms and shape so instead of focusing and foul crying about one, look at bigger picture. Try talking against Judaism in Israel or Hinduism in India and we can simply figure out the end result. Many religious based violence have been done in those places as well, along with many other Christian countries in Africa. Extremism exists among certain Muslims, but people like you and media plays it out as if its the worse form of extremism and if its end of the world. Majority of the world couldn't name a single Muslim country before 9/11 so this whole tide of Islam and Muslims are scary was only due to illegal wars against many of their countries.

 

[cricketjoshila]

What a goon to harm Muslims in general with this heinous murder. Let the dogs bark and they will disappear themselves if you don't pay attention to them, that's what you simply do with Islamophobes.

Muslim students should have simply gone through the mgmt and education board to file a complain. Any Teacher doing something similar in US or Canada will likely be expelled on the spot. This student has done more harm to Islam and Muslim's image. Islam and Prophet don't approve of such reaction so it just boggles my mind how extremist in our religion keep making it hard for the rest of Muslims. As said let the dogs bark, they aren't worth giving attention to and go through proper channels to raise such concerns at any professional setup.

Teacher would be expelled for showing a cartoon of Muhammad(pbuh)?

 

[Kriketer]

Teacher would be expelled for showing a cartoon of Muhammad(pbuh)?

Yep, respecting all religions is part of their constitution, especially at an educational institute. And school is a place for education, not to spread hate and fascism.

How's beef eating tolerance coming along in India? Still openly killing innocent people over it? been the case for years now there it seems. Extremism in any religion is bad.

 

[rhony]

It's a bloody religious war. It's being waged for centuries. It will go on for centuries. Why antoganize somebody in the name of free speech when you clearly know it will hurt their feelings. What kind of civil behaviour is that? West takes pride in being civil and courteous. Mocking their own religion gives them the right to mock others? How is that you can draw cartoons to antoganize while be politically correct in every sphere of life?

On the other side of the coin, Followers of Islam are easy bait. They can be riled up easily to the point of murder. Is that insecurity or fear? Insecure about what? Islam is the largest religion and is growing. The Ummah or the religion without borders rhetoric is just that a rhetoric. It doesn't help anyone. It doesn't even exist as we saw for decades. Infact it hurts the rest of the muslims when a lunatic tries to be a god's soldier and dies a miserable death.

 

[rhony]

Teacher would be expelled for showing a cartoon of Muhammad(pbuh)?

The teachers are sensitive here. Infact there were complaints when teachers were trying to glorify Islam in their classes. After a while nobody cares.

I wonder what the purpose of showing these cartoons to innocent minds was.
What's the point in that? Is his intention to teach tolerance to the Muslim kids or to teach the christian kids that they shouldn't draw cartoons like that? How weird is that? Does a teacher show a video of a gruesome accident causing death on liveleak to teach that people should drive carefully? This is so weird on many levels.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Yep, respecting all religions is part of their constitution, especially at an educational institute. And school is a place for education, not to spread hate and fascism.

How's beef eating tolerance coming along in India? Still openly killing innocent people over it? been the case for years now there it seems. Extremism in any religion is bad.

France just had the cartoons of Charlie Hebdo projected on govt buildings in Montpelier. Guess no one is going to be expelled.

Right now the world is worried about muslims killing people at the slightest provocation. Not aboutl

 

[cricketjoshila]

Not about cows. Neither the world is worried about Buddhists of bolo bodu sena or christian nutters who fire in a mosque.