Garry Sobers vs Imran Khan - Who was the better cricketer?

[Harsh Thakor]

Personally,in the moral sense as a pure all-rounder Imran Khan or arguably any other all-rounder ,bar Jacques Kallis is not in the same league as Gary Sobers.Statistics just does not tell the accurate story.Sobers was like an immortal to the game of cricket-a three into one cricketer.Whether bowling ,batting or fielding Sobers could turn a game totally upside down.In addition to being arguably amongst the top 3-4 batsmen of all time Sobers was amongst the most versatile bowlers in cricket history.He could bowl fast,fast-medium,spin and chinaman.Gary could turn a game or series with both bat and ball which no all-rounder could ever consistently apart from Botham and Miller at their peak.True,Imran was a better bowler but could not be at his best with both bat and ball or turn games or series with both bat and ball.Where did Imran ever emulate Gary's 583 runs and 21 wickets for Rest of the World in England in 1972 or his 722 runs and 20 wickets in England in 1966.Nor has Imran surpassed Gary's 113 and 8-168 at Kingston v England in 1968-69.Imran was a great fast bowler who became a very good batsmen late in his career.Remember that in his peak period Sobers captured 4 wickets per test.With both bat and ball at their best Botham and Miller came closer to Sobers while consistently in a career Kallis was closest to Sobers.What places Imran closer to Sobers than Kallis,Miller or Botham as a cricketer were his great achievements as a skipper.Even the Imran of 1982-88 was more of a great fast bowler than batsman.Figures hardly do justice to Sobers as a bowler who could be devastating with different styles.Even if Imran has great figures all experts or past greats rated Sobers in a higher league.Gary is a unaninmous choice in an all-time world xi,Imran is not.Imran may accompany Gary in the 1st xi or probabaly make the 2nd team.More cricketing experts chose Gary Sobers with Wasim Akram in the 1st xi.Even if Kallis had marginally better stats he could not turn a game in as explosive manner as Sobers with both ball and bat.Sobers made the impact of a hurricane on a cricket field.Imran's peak era as an all-rounder does not equal Sobers statistically.At their best Sobers would turn games more than Imran because of greater all-round skill.Sobers was the equivalent of a Bradman to a side as an all-rounder.Read what Ian Chappell,Ian Botham,Mike Procter,Richard Hadlee or Sunil Gavaskar have to say about Sobers when choosing him in their all-time xi.Imran is still not in the same league as Sobers or Bradman but in the category of a Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar as a cricketer overall.Remember Cristopher Martin Jenkins,Geoff Armstrong,John Woodcock and rated Sobers in the top 3 of all time and compare him favourably with Bradman.Sobers attained towering heights which superlatives cannot describe.If any cricketer came closest to posessing cricketing genius Sobers was the first candidate.He reached a zenith of performance levels that no cricketer ever equalled.Imran no doubt would serve a team better as fast -bowling all-rounder but overall it may have taken 2 Imran Khan's to surpass one Gary Sobers.Sadly critiques on pakpassion have hardly respected the fact that assesing greatness is not all about statistics.Even statistically Sobers overshadows Imran.To replace Sobers with Kallis is a marginally better choice.I don't deny Imran greatness,he may even edge Viv or Sachin.However we have to respect cricket historians.Inspite of superior statistical figures Kallis is not ranked in the same class as Gary.

Never forget Sobers played against great Australian and English sides,amongst some of the best players the game has ever seen.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Again, you are bringing the not out issue without looking at the figures.

If I tell you that in 1980s, there were only 7/8 batsmen who scored over 2500 Test runs & average over 49.5, one of them being someone who took 200+ wickets as well at <19 & led a indiscipline & infighting unit to world's top team in most turbulent period of their history. AND all these after losing 3 of the best years of his career to injury, you 'll realize what was Imran Khan.

It's impossible to describe Imran in a single post, I won't try; BUT, in cricket history the most over hyped cricketer is Gary Sobers, who looked shinning because there was no one close to him as all-rounder & he did things that were eye catching those days. Bowling fast, swing, spin is a bull **** that worked in amateur days of cricket - try this today, crowd 'll mock you instead of the orgasm ......... He could swing the ball at a better than Military medium hence had an average of 25 in ENG - take out that, he was as good a bowler as Ravi Shastri. Any thing that he did was blown out of proportion - just read my post on the story of his 6 Sixes against Malcom Nash somewhere in PP, you 'll understand.

Sobers was super hyped as a batsman because in an era of Barrington & Simpson & Cowdrey & Hanif he was someone who played attractive shots. Take out his figures against IND & PAK (doesn't make sense now, but think about AB playing about 25 Tests against BD & ZIM in last 10 years) at their early days & averaged 85+ against them (On same logic people bashes Sangakara left, right & centre - but for Sobers, suddenly IND & PAK becomes world's elite team in 50s & 60s). When the top 8 bowlers of AUS & ENG (read Lindwall, Miller, Davidson, Benaud, Truman, Statham, Laker & Lock) were active - check out Sober's average with bat.

And, he was a pathetic Captain to be polite.

I am trying to write something on the cricket strength by decade & 80s probably coming among top 2/3 - in that decade Imran made all-rounders like Hadlee, Kapil & Botham a level lower; Sobers would have competed with Shastri in 80s. It's a taboo established that Bradman is the greatest batsman, Sobers the best all-rounder & everyone is extremely nervous to challenge that.

If we don't consider the bull shits that 50s & 60s cricket were men's game & in 80s downwards top Cricketers used to **** with bananas, Sobers doesn't stand against Kallis or even Wasim, let alone Imran or Botham or Kapil or Hadlee..........

You are ignorant of the great opposition Sobers played against and the great players he played with and against.He played aginst Richie Benuad,Alan Davidson,Graham Mckenzie,Dennis Lillee,Ian and Greg Chappell,Sunil Gavaskar,Subhash Gupte,Vinoo Mankad,Fred Truemna,Peter May,Ted Dexter,Colin Cowdrey,Ken Barrington,TomGraveney,Alan Knottetc.His contempoararise included the 3 W'S,Rohan Kanhai,Wes Hall etc.Gary played against the strongest of English nad Australian teams.

 

[Scrolln]

By that logic, Kallis is a better all-rounder than Imran because he played against eight professional sides.

But Kallis was never considered the best cricketer of his generation, was he?

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Different eras and some what different kinds of players, so they are obviously difficult to compare. For me, the pros and cons are:

Sobers:
Pros:
*Exceptional batsman, one of the greatest of all times.
*He was a full time bowler, unlike the likes of Kallis - so he was more than a batting all rounder. He was a balanced all rounder, though the stats don't show that because his strong performances as a pacer was masked by his weaker performances as a spinner.
*Sobers won matches with both bat and ball, and often won matches with the ball which was considered his weaker suite.
Cons:
*Sober's era was probably not as competitive like Imran's, so direct stats comparison may not be give the best results. Teams like NZ, Pakistan and India were a lot more competitive during Imran's era compared to Sober's era. Sobers had to contend only with two strong opponents in Australia and England. The Kiwi side of the 70s/80s was as strong as the Pakistani side of the 50s/60s, just for the context.

Imran:
Pros:
* Exceptional bowler, one of the greatest of all times.
* Exceptional leader and manager - singly responsible for the continuous flow of world class bowlers from Pakistan for many years.
* Played in a tough competitive era and brought out his best against the best teams.
Cons:
* Was rarely good with the bat and ball at the same time. He was either very good with the ball (early half) or good with the bat(later half) but he didn't match Sober's level in being able to excel simultaneously with bat and ball in any part of his career.

Sobers as batsman >> Imran
Imran as bowler >> Sobers
Imran as cricketer > Sobers

If I want to win a match, I would opt for both players, but I had only one pick I would choose Imran ahead of Sobers as better bowlers win you more test matches.

Personally,in the moral sense as a pure all-rounder Imran Khan or arguably any other all-rounder ,bar Jacques Kallis is not in the same league as Gary Sobers.Statistics just does not tell the accurate story.Sobers was like an immortal to the game of cricket-a three into one cricketer.Whether bowling ,batting or fielding Sobers could turn a game totally upside down.In addition to being arguably amongst the top 3-4 batsmen of all time Sobers was amongst the most versatile bowlers in cricket history.He could bowl fast,fast-medium,spin and chinaman.Gary could turn a game or series with both bat and ball which no all-rounder could ever consistently apart from Botham and Miller at their peak.True,Imran was a better bowler but could not be at his best with both bat and ball or turn games or series with both bat and ball.Where did Imran ever emulate Gary's 583 runs and 21 wickets for Rest of the World in England in 1972 or his 722 runs and 20 wickets in England in 1966.Nor has Imran surpassed Gary's 113 and 8-168 at Kingston v England in 1968-69.Imran was a great fast bowler who became a very good batsmen late in his career.Remember that in his peak period Sobers captured 4 wickets per test.With both bat and ball at their best Botham and Miller came closer to Sobers while consistently in a career Kallis was closest to Sobers.What places Imran closer to Sobers than Kallis,Miller or Botham as a cricketer were his great achievements as a skipper.Even the Imran of 1982-88 was more of a great fast bowler than batsman.Figures hardly do justice to Sobers as a bowler who could be devastating with different styles.Even if Imran has great figures all experts or past greats rated Sobers in a higher league.Gary is a unaninmous choice in an all-time world xi,Imran is not.Imran may accompany Gary in the 1st xi or probabaly make the 2nd team.More cricketing experts chose Gary Sobers with Wasim Akram in the 1st xi.Even if Kallis had marginally better stats he could not turn a game in as explosive manner as Sobers with both ball and bat.Sobers made the impact of a hurricane on a cricket field.Imran's peak era as an all-rounder does not equal Sobers statistically.At their best Sobers would turn games more than Imran because of greater all-round skill.Sobers was the equivalent of a Bradman to a side as an all-rounder.Read what Ian Chappell,Ian Botham,Mike Procter,Richard Hadlee or Sunil Gavaskar have to say about Sobers when choosing him in their all-time xi.Imran is still not in the same league as Sobers or Bradman but in the category of a Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar as a cricketer overall.Remember Cristopher Martin Jenkins,Geoff Armstrong,John Woodcock and rated Sobers in the top 3 of all time and compare him favourably with Bradman.Sobers attained towering heights which superlatives cannot describe.If any cricketer came closest to posessing cricketing genius Sobers was the first candidate.He reached a zenith of performance levels that no cricketer ever equalled.Imran no doubt would serve a team better as fast -bowling all-rounder but overall it may have taken 2 Imran Khan's to surpass one Gary Sobers.Sadly critiques on pakpassion have hardly respected the fact that assesing greatness is not all about statistics.Even statistically Sobers overshadows Imran.To replace Sobers with Kallis is a marginally better choice.I don't deny Imran greatness,he may even edge Viv or Sachin.However we have to respect cricket historians.Inspite of superior statistical figures Kallis is not ranked in the same class as Gary.

Never forget Sobers played against great Australian and English sides,amongst some of the best players the game has ever seen.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Was Sobers the bowler, as good as Imran the batsman? I don't think so. Then you have to take Imran's leadership into account as well. By being the better bowler and a fantastic captain, Imran Khan should be rated higher than Sobers.

We discussed this, right? Why are not-outs a bad thing? An average of 50 is an average of 50 even if Imran wasn't in the league of guys like Viv and Gavasker.

Sobers was three bowlers moulded into one .Above all Sobers could turn a ball with both bat and ball considerably more than Imran.

Personally,in the moral sense as a pure all-rounder Imran Khan or arguably any other all-rounder ,bar Jacques Kallis is not in the same league as Gary Sobers.Statistics just does not tell the accurate story.Sobers was like an immortal to the game of cricket-a three into one cricketer.Whether bowling ,batting or fielding Sobers could turn a game totally upside down.In addition to being arguably amongst the top 3-4 batsmen of all time Sobers was amongst the most versatile bowlers in cricket history.He could bowl fast,fast-medium,spin and chinaman.Gary could turn a game or series with both bat and ball which no all-rounder could ever consistently apart from Botham and Miller at their peak.True,Imran was a better bowler but could not be at his best with both bat and ball or turn games or series with both bat and ball.Where did Imran ever emulate Gary's 583 runs and 21 wickets for Rest of the World in England in 1972 or his 722 runs and 20 wickets in England in 1966.Nor has Imran surpassed Gary's 113 and 8-168 at Kingston v England in 1968-69.Imran was a great fast bowler who became a very good batsmen late in his career.Remember that in his peak period Sobers captured 4 wickets per test.With both bat and ball at their best Botham and Miller came closer to Sobers while consistently in a career Kallis was closest to Sobers.What places Imran closer to Sobers than Kallis,Miller or Botham as a cricketer were his great achievements as a skipper.Even the Imran of 1982-88 was more of a great fast bowler than batsman.Figures hardly do justice to Sobers as a bowler who could be devastating with different styles.Even if Imran has great figures all experts or past greats rated Sobers in a higher league.Gary is a unaninmous choice in an all-time world xi,Imran is not.Imran may accompany Gary in the 1st xi or probabaly make the 2nd team.More cricketing experts chose Gary Sobers with Wasim Akram in the 1st xi.Even if Kallis had marginally better stats he could not turn a game in as explosive manner as Sobers with both ball and bat.Sobers made the impact of a hurricane on a cricket field.Imran's peak era as an all-rounder does not equal Sobers statistically.At their best Sobers would turn games more than Imran because of greater all-round skill.Sobers was the equivalent of a Bradman to a side as an all-rounder.Read what Ian Chappell,Ian Botham,Mike Procter,Richard Hadlee or Sunil Gavaskar have to say about Sobers when choosing him in their all-time xi.Imran is still not in the same league as Sobers or Bradman but in the category of a Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar as a cricketer overall.Remember Cristopher Martin Jenkins,Geoff Armstrong,John Woodcock and rated Sobers in the top 3 of all time and compare him favourably with Bradman.Sobers attained towering heights which superlatives cannot describe.If any cricketer came closest to posessing cricketing genius Sobers was the first candidate.He reached a zenith of performance levels that no cricketer ever equalled.Imran no doubt would serve a team better as fast -bowling all-rounder but overall it may have taken 2 Imran Khan's to surpass one Gary Sobers.Sadly critiques on pakpassion have hardly respected the fact that assesing greatness is not all about statistics.Even statistically Sobers overshadows Imran.To replace Sobers with Kallis is a marginally better choice.I don't deny Imran greatness,he may even edge Viv or Sachin.However we have to respect cricket historians.Inspite of superior statistical figures Kallis is not ranked in the same class as Gary.

Never forget Sobers played against great Australian and English sides,amongst some of the best players the game has ever seen.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

I'm sure Imran's contributions with the bat were just as good, if not better than this. He was arguably the third best batsman in the Pakistan team, even during the peak of his bowling powers. Also, like another poster mentioned, he is one of only two cricketers to have averaged 50+ with the bat and <25 with the ball, in the same series. He's also done it twice. Also, he has the best ratio of MOTS wins, which he no doubt achieved due to his all-round contributions.



As for Sobers, if those were his good series, his bad series would have been awfully bad. Also, his SR was a big negative against him which you haven't mentioned in your post.

Quoting cricinfo stats by S.Rajesh
More than most other cricketers, Sobers was able to, on more than one occasion, deliver his excellence with bat and ball in the same series. Scoring 300 runs and taking 20 wickets in a series is no mean feat - it's only been achieved 15 times in the entire history of Test cricket - but Sobers managed it three times on his own, twice against England, and once against India. The Australian allrounder Keith Miller did it twice, but no one else has achieved it more than once. Ian Botham, Kapil Dev, Richard Hadlee and Shaun Pollock were among those who did it once each, while Imran Khan didn't even achieve it once.

Overall, Sobers' all-round numbers are outstanding - his batting average is nearly 24 more than his bowling average. In terms of this differential, only Jacques Kallis of South Africa has a slightly higher difference.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

To show how great Sobers was as a bowler here are some stats from cricinfo by S.Rajesh

Best Test bowlers between Jan 1961 and Dec 1968 (Qual: 100 wickets) Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike rate 5WI/ 10WM
Fred Trueman 26 133 21.67 49.4 10/ 3
Lance Gibbs 33 158 24.24 75.7 12/ 2
Peter Pollock 24 101 25.22 57.7 8/ 1
Garry Sobers 33 125 27.93 76.3 5/ 0

 

[Robert]

But Kallis was never considered the best cricketer of his generation, was he?

Well, that's covered in a separate thread. As Harsh points out Sobey would take the game away in a session with the bat and sometimes with the ball too, while Kallis didn't do that, but he was supportive of SA, shoring up the batting and helping his more illustrious bowlers to take wickets.

 

[Robert]

To show how great Sobers was as a bowler here are some stats from cricinfo by S.Rajesh

Best Test bowlers between Jan 1961 and Dec 1968 (Qual: 100 wickets)

Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike rate 5WI/ 10WM
Fred Trueman 26 133 21.67 49.4 10/ 3
Lance Gibbs 33 158 24.24 75.7 12/ 2
Peter Pollock 24 101 25.22 57.7 8/ 1
Garry Sobers 33 125 27.93 76.3 5/ 0

Clearly a frontline bowler. It would be interesting to see in what capacity Sobey was bowling. He was a SLA early on in his career but learned the other styles later.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

But Kallis was never considered the best cricketer of his generation, was he?

To me arguably Kallis was the best cricketer of his generation with more staggering statistics than even Tendulkar.I still mantain that Kallis was a more genuine replacement for Sobers in an ll-time xi than any cricketer.Kalllis has the best statistical record of any all-rounder and has taken 5 wickets and scored a century twice.At his best against West Indies in 1998 and in England in 1998 he could turn games with both bat and ball like Sobers.What Kallis lacked was Sober's artistry or match-winning flair.As an all-rounder Kallis is closest to Sobers who ws even capable of opening an attack.Kallis could not turn the complexion of match like Sobers but neverthless produced some great efforts in a crisis.Kallis to me deserves a place in the top 12 cricketers of all and in the 2nd best world xi.

 

[IndianWillow]

Personally,in the moral sense as a pure all-rounder Imran Khan or arguably any other all-rounder ,bar Jacques Kallis is not in the same league as Gary Sobers.Statistics just does not tell the accurate story.Sobers was like an immortal to the game of cricket-a three into one cricketer.Whether bowling ,batting or fielding Sobers could turn a game totally upside down.In addition to being arguably amongst the top 3-4 batsmen of all time Sobers was amongst the most versatile bowlers in cricket history.He could bowl fast,fast-medium,spin and chinaman.Gary could turn a game or series with both bat and ball which no all-rounder could ever consistently apart from Botham and Miller at their peak.True,Imran was a better bowler but could not be at his best with both bat and ball or turn games or series with both bat and ball.Where did Imran ever emulate Gary's 583 runs and 21 wickets for Rest of the World in England in 1972 or his 722 runs and 20 wickets in England in 1966.Nor has Imran surpassed Gary's 113 and 8-168 at Kingston v England in 1968-69.Imran was a great fast bowler who became a very good batsmen late in his career.Remember that in his peak period Sobers captured 4 wickets per test.With both bat and ball at their best Botham and Miller came closer to Sobers while consistently in a career Kallis was closest to Sobers.What places Imran closer to Sobers than Kallis,Miller or Botham as a cricketer were his great achievements as a skipper.Even the Imran of 1982-88 was more of a great fast bowler than batsman.Figures hardly do justice to Sobers as a bowler who could be devastating with different styles.Even if Imran has great figures all experts or past greats rated Sobers in a higher league.Gary is a unaninmous choice in an all-time world xi,Imran is not.Imran may accompany Gary in the 1st xi or probabaly make the 2nd team.More cricketing experts chose Gary Sobers with Wasim Akram in the 1st xi.Even if Kallis had marginally better stats he could not turn a game in as explosive manner as Sobers with both ball and bat.Sobers made the impact of a hurricane on a cricket field.Imran's peak era as an all-rounder does not equal Sobers statistically.At their best Sobers would turn games more than Imran because of greater all-round skill.Sobers was the equivalent of a Bradman to a side as an all-rounder.Read what Ian Chappell,Ian Botham,Mike Procter,Richard Hadlee or Sunil Gavaskar have to say about Sobers when choosing him in their all-time xi.Imran is still not in the same league as Sobers or Bradman but in the category of a Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar as a cricketer overall.Remember Cristopher Martin Jenkins,Geoff Armstrong,John Woodcock and rated Sobers in the top 3 of all time and compare him favourably with Bradman.Sobers attained towering heights which superlatives cannot describe.If any cricketer came closest to posessing cricketing genius Sobers was the first candidate.He reached a zenith of performance levels that no cricketer ever equalled.Imran no doubt would serve a team better as fast -bowling all-rounder but overall it may have taken 2 Imran Khan's to surpass one Gary Sobers.Sadly critiques on pakpassion have hardly respected the fact that assesing greatness is not all about statistics.Even statistically Sobers overshadows Imran.To replace Sobers with Kallis is a marginally better choice.I don't deny Imran greatness,he may even edge Viv or Sachin.However we have to respect cricket historians.Inspite of superior statistical figures Kallis is not ranked in the same class as Gary.

Never forget Sobers played against great Australian and English sides,amongst some of the best players the game has ever seen.

All agreed, but Sobers played in a relatively less competitive era. Imran was up against very strong sides (even the weakest side of his time,viz the Kiwis were a strong side in the 80s). I already mentioned that Sobers could change the course of matches with both bat and ball.

There isn't any good argument against Sobers greatness. But I still think his achievements are hyped. The 50s/60s were not as professional as the 80s era - it was completely dominated by two test sides in Australia and England who played about 47% of all test matches. Apart from WI, other teams were more or less Bangladesh/Zimbabwe standard of today. There is always the tendency to glorify the past and denigrate the present. Many of us are willing to label cricketers we have not even seen play once, as the greatest of all times - isn't that a bit of an irony?

Do you know Bradman's dream XI? It was:
Barry Richards, Arthur Morris Don Bradman, Sachin Tendulkar, Garry Sobers, Don Tallon , Ray Lindwall , Dennis Lillee, Alec Bedser, Bill O'Reilly, Clarrie Grimmett (Wally Hammond 12th man).

Do you think this is indeed the best All Time XI? Bradman's team can be summarized as glorification of the past and his own nation, nothing more nothing less. Many of the cricket historians and former player views are based on the same principles. The present day player is expected to do much more than former greats to be treated at their same levels.

 

[as-95]

Imran Khan no doubt. Imran was one of the Greatest Bowlers of All Time and a very good better aswell. Sobers was a superb batsman, but only a decent bowler. No doubt Imran Khan was the greater All Rounded.

 

[as-95]

Comparing across eras is always tricky.

Bradman faced one professional team.

Sobers faced two (England and Australia)

Imran faced five (India,NZ,Aus,Eng,WI)

There is absolutely no question as to which one of the three was up against tougher opponents. Imran stood out as arguably the greatest cricketer of the 80's which is among the toughest decades for test cricket. I feel
he was at par with Botham and Kapil with the bat, but was in a different league with the ball.

In my opinion, cricketers who stand out in a tougher era > cricketers who stand out in a relatively easier environment. Therefore Imran gets my vote.

Fair response. Fully agree with the reasoning.

 

[as-95]

Again, you are bringing the not out issue without looking at the figures.

If I tell you that in 1980s, there were only 7/8 batsmen who scored over 2500 Test runs & average over 49.5, one of them being someone who took 200+ wickets as well at <19 & led a indiscipline & infighting unit to world's top team in most turbulent period of their history. AND all these after losing 3 of the best years of his career to injury, you 'll realize what was Imran Khan.

It's impossible to describe Imran in a single post, I won't try; BUT, in cricket history the most over hyped cricketer is Gary Sobers, who looked shinning because there was no one close to him as all-rounder & he did things that were eye catching those days. Bowling fast, swing, spin is a bull **** that worked in amateur days of cricket - try this today, crowd 'll mock you instead of the orgasm ......... He could swing the ball at a better than Military medium hence had an average of 25 in ENG - take out that, he was as good a bowler as Ravi Shastri. Any thing that he did was blown out of proportion - just read my post on the story of his 6 Sixes against Malcom Nash somewhere in PP, you 'll understand.

Sobers was super hyped as a batsman because in an era of Barrington & Simpson & Cowdrey & Hanif he was someone who played attractive shots. Take out his figures against IND & PAK (doesn't make sense now, but think about AB playing about 25 Tests against BD & ZIM in last 10 years) at their early days & averaged 85+ against them (On same logic people bashes Sangakara left, right & centre - but for Sobers, suddenly IND & PAK becomes world's elite team in 50s & 60s). When the top 8 bowlers of AUS & ENG (read Lindwall, Miller, Davidson, Benaud, Truman, Statham, Laker & Lock) were active - check out Sober's average with bat.

And, he was a pathetic Captain to be polite.

I am trying to write something on the cricket strength by decade & 80s probably coming among top 2/3 - in that decade Imran made all-rounders like Hadlee, Kapil & Botham a level lower; Sobers would have competed with Shastri in 80s. It's a taboo established that Bradman is the greatest batsman, Sobers the best all-rounder & everyone is extremely nervous to challenge that.

If we don't consider the bull shits that 50s & 60s cricket were men's game & in 80s downwards top Cricketers used to **** with bananas, Sobers doesn't stand against Kallis or even Wasim, let alone Imran or Botham or Kapil or Hadlee..........

Superb rebuttal to put Robert back in his place. Keep it up.

 

[as-95]

Man of the Series don't have an objective value (esp. considering Sobers wasn't able to get a lot of them), but are prime indicators of a player's importance. As for Imran Khan, here it is (from an old thread of mine) :

- He won 8 MoS awards in 28 series, the best ratio by any modern cricketer.

- Two of his MoS awards came when we won our first Test series in India (1987), and then, few months later, England.

Again months later (1988), was awarded his last MoS when he was about to captain a side which was about to beat the WI in a bilateral series after 15 years - Pak didn't break that record, but still beat WI in a Test at home after remaining one decade undefeated, and levelled the series 1-1 (3).

That should settle Immy's captaincy skills. As captain, he overall averaged 50 with the bat and 20 with the ball.

- Hadlee's 7 MoS awards out of 8, Imran's 5 MoS awards out of 8 and Kapil's 2 out of 4 came away ; all 3 of Botham's were at home.

- only Imran Khan and Kapil Dev had a MoS award against the dominating team of the decade, namely the WI.

Imran Khan has 3 MoS awards (out of career 8) against the WI, incl. 1 in the WI - the only one to have a MoS in WI's own backyard.

- Imran Khan averaged +50 with the bat and -25 with the ball for two MoS awards, Botham one.

- the MoS awards of both Imran and Hadlee spanned the whole decade, whereas for Kapil Dev it's the first half of the 80s, and Botham 1978-1981 (which I think says a lot about consistency.)

- Imran Khan has the best peak average ever as a bowler, that is +150 wickets at -15 for 1981-1986. That says a lot about his bowling "potential" :

Excellent response. That is a phenomenal stat and it's over a 5 year period!! Sublime bowler and leagues ahead of Sobers in bowling. Sobers is the superior batsman, but Imran was a better batsman than Sobers was a bowler. Overall, Imran is superior imho.

 

[Amoeba]

What is interesting is if you check Imrans' stats as a captain. From 82 onwards aged 29 he was at his peak. He avearged 20 with the ball and 50+ with the bat. Puts any comparison to any player over a 10 year period to shame I would suggest.

 

[Amoeba]

And there is a general misconception amongst English fans that Botham, Hadlee or Kapil - in fact anyone but Imran was the best all-rounder of the 80s if facebook is anything to by. The media hey?

 

[Robert]

Do you know Bradman's dream XI? It was:
Barry Richards, Arthur Morris Don Bradman, Sachin Tendulkar, Garry Sobers, Don Tallon , Ray Lindwall , Dennis Lillee, Alec Bedser, Bill O'Reilly, Clarrie Grimmett (Wally Hammond 12th man).

Do you think this is indeed the best All Time XI? Bradman's team can be summarized as glorification of the past and his own nation, nothing more nothing less. Many of the cricket historians and former player views are based on the same principles. The present day player is expected to do much more than former greats to be treated at their same levels.

Tallon is too high.

If I could make one change to that team it would be Imran in for Bedser, and if I could make another I'd drop a spinner and put Hammond in at #5. If I could make a third I'd have Marshall in for Lillee.

 

[Robert]

And there is a general misconception amongst English fans that Botham, Hadlee or Kapil - in fact anyone but Imran was the best all-rounder of the 80s if facebook is anything to by. The media hey?

FWIW here is my Planet Earth ATG XI.

Sir Jack Hobbs
Gavaskar
Sir Donald Bradman
Sir Viv Richards
Sir Garfield Sobers
Gilchrist (w)
Imran Khan
Lindwall
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose

Sobers and Imran can fight each other for the captaincy.

 

[Bilal7]

Again, you are bringing the not out issue without looking at the figures.

If I tell you that in 1980s, there were only 7/8 batsmen who scored over 2500 Test runs & average over 49.5, one of them being someone who took 200+ wickets as well at <19 & led a indiscipline & infighting unit to world's top team in most turbulent period of their history. AND all these after losing 3 of the best years of his career to injury, you 'll realize what was Imran Khan.

It's impossible to describe Imran in a single post, I won't try; BUT, in cricket history the most over hyped cricketer is Gary Sobers, who looked shinning because there was no one close to him as all-rounder & he did things that were eye catching those days. Bowling fast, swing, spin is a bull **** that worked in amateur days of cricket - try this today, crowd 'll mock you instead of the orgasm ......... He could swing the ball at a better than Military medium hence had an average of 25 in ENG - take out that, he was as good a bowler as Ravi Shastri. Any thing that he did was blown out of proportion - just read my post on the story of his 6 Sixes against Malcom Nash somewhere in PP, you 'll understand.

Sobers was super hyped as a batsman because in an era of Barrington & Simpson & Cowdrey & Hanif he was someone who played attractive shots. Take out his figures against IND & PAK (doesn't make sense now, but think about AB playing about 25 Tests against BD & ZIM in last 10 years) at their early days & averaged 85+ against them (On same logic people bashes Sangakara left, right & centre - but for Sobers, suddenly IND & PAK becomes world's elite team in 50s & 60s). When the top 8 bowlers of AUS & ENG (read Lindwall, Miller, Davidson, Benaud, Truman, Statham, Laker & Lock) were active - check out Sober's average with bat.

And, he was a pathetic Captain to be polite.

I am trying to write something on the cricket strength by decade & 80s probably coming among top 2/3 - in that decade Imran made all-rounders like Hadlee, Kapil & Botham a level lower; Sobers would have competed with Shastri in 80s. It's a taboo established that Bradman is the greatest batsman, Sobers the best all-rounder & everyone is extremely nervous to challenge that.

If we don't consider the bull shits that 50s & 60s cricket were men's game & in 80s downwards top Cricketers used to **** with bananas, Sobers doesn't stand against Kallis or even Wasim, let alone Imran or Botham or Kapil or Hadlee..........

Interesting. So Sobers has been exposed as a minnow-basher and a jack of all trades, master of none. Good post, sir.

Tallon is too high.

If I could make one change to that team it would be Imran in for Bedser, and if I could make another I'd drop a spinner and put Hammond in at #5. If I could make a third I'd have Marshall in for Lillee.

Is that Imran with a (c) at the end?

 

[joly]

IK was an Ashwin like lower mid order batsman who had 2 bat in middle order,a vry good bowler and a mediocre fielder,did not have the hitting power of some of his contemporaries,better in tests and not so good in odis as an AL,leadership does not matter as wonvery little tests against quality teams

 

[joly]

What is interesting is if you check Imrans' stats as a captain. From 82 onwards aged 29 he was at his peak. He avearged 20 with the ball and 50+ with the bat. Puts any comparison to any player over a 10 year period to shame I would suggest.

It is not a misconception if we consider All rounders (Tests+odis)

 

[Amoeba]

It is not a misconception if we consider All rounders (Tests+odis)

No one really cares about Jamodis especially in the 70s and 80s. Otherwise why not have Bevan or Shane Watson in the team?
Players will always be judged by their test match performances and not by some mickey mouse competition like the IPL - long may it continue.

 

[Indian_Supporter]

FWIW here is my Planet Earth ATG XI.

Sir Jack Hobbs
Gavaskar
Sir Donald Bradman
Sir Viv Richards
Sir Garfield Sobers
Gilchrist (w)
Imran Khan
Lindwall
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose

Sobers and Imran can fight each other for the captaincy.

Sehwag was better than Sir Jack Hobbs.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

 

[Stallion__]

Sehwag was better than Sir Jack Hobbs.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

And I thought Sehwag is better than Sir Bradman..........

 

[MMHS]

I am quite aware of Imran as I saw him play a lot in tests and County cricket in the eighties. So I resist this attempt by young Pakistanis who never saw him to afford him mythical status based on cherrypicking manipulation of statistics.



Now you are showing ignorance of history. Cowdrey was a shot-player. Sobers played with and against aggressive batters Weekes, Worrall, Walcott, Kanhai, May and Dexter and he was the king of them all.

Mocking from the crowd? Amateurs? He was a professional, facing hardmen like Trueman trying to knock his head off. Fred Trueman was the best England bowler ever, and described Sobers as "magical".

As a skipper he beat Australia away and England away.

If he was playing today then even arrogant youngsters would call him greatest genius ever, which he is. If you bring Shastri into it then I think Sobers comparable as a SLA. So what you get is a combination of Lara with the bat, plus Anderson / Shastri with the ball, plus as good a slip-catcher as ever drew breath.

First, I am not Pakistani. I have a little advantage over most posters here - I represent a flag which has very little stake when it comes to great cricketers, which helps me to be neutral observer. The problem is, other posters picks me based on their like/dislike. Normally, Indians keep silent when I write about Kapil, Kumble, MS or Bedi - goes crazy when I write on Tendulkar or Gavasker. Aussies are upset only when Shane-Murali comes; you are an Englishman & I try to avoid Botham-Imran here. The Pakistanis in general agrees with me, unless I write about their state of the art Domestic Style and the South African's are most polite, I unless there is something on their pressure handling is written. But, I write what little I understand & what little I myself believe - and you 'll never read anything from me without a logic or data to back-up. I am still waiting for your response on which are the English batsmen who could make in to English team of 80s simply as batsmen over Imran - I guess you can recall that.

Anyway, I don't want to be disrespectful to someone starting school probably even before my birth, but here you are trying a distracting technique to avoid the question - which are the batsmen in 80s with 2500+ Test runs & 49.5+ average? Not Out has nothing to do with that 2500+ cap........

Imran played in 70s for a PAK team which had Intekhab Alam at 9, therefore hardly could show his batting capabilities, but even in 70s he used to bat at 4/5 for Sussex. In 80s, being the spearhead of his team, he himself opted for No. 7 slot & he was too good a batsman for that spot, hence often ran out of partners. Here comes his fitness issue - after '82-83 Imran was hardly full fit & he was well into his 30s when he came back in 1985-86, probably wasn't fit enough to carry a young attack & bat at 5 but he was more than capable of that. Batting at 4 to 6, in 25 innings (10 Not outs), he averages over 58, but at 70+/Test - it was not about Not Outs only. Few Series, due to injury, he played simply or mostly as batsman - he averages 60+ in those Test. In fact, I put it other way - Imran missed an opportunity to bat higher & score more, but he probably couldn't manage physically.

For the 2nd part of your post - Truman, indeed the best ever English fast bowler, described Sobers as "Magical" - someone who averages <30 against him & his 3 pals - there is the "Hype blown out of proportion". Trueman must have made that comment after 1963, when he & his pals retired & in next 3 Series Sobers scored around 2000 @ 75+ & by that time he was Gary Sobers ...... otherwise before that, someone doesn't call you "Magical" with an average of around 30 against you & your pals....... Take out IND, PAK & ENG after 1963 - Sober's averages around 35 with bat. Beating AUS or ENG away doesn't make you a great Captain - I suggest you read few things about Sobers the Captain.

There is no denying that Gary Sobers was a Champion cricketer, he played the game in most attractive way, which actually made him stand out in 60s - think about Sehwag opening in an era of Boycott & Hanif. He was indeed a genius - almost every skill of the game came to him as natural, but there are lots of myth around him which should be basted. He was the all-rounder prime in an era when probably 2nd best all-rounder was Peter Pollock or Eddi Barlow or Intekhab Alam. There are epics written about his 254 at MCG - check out the bowlers & context (I wrote it somewhere), you 'll realize it was not that epic. And he never played against the best side of his peak days - SAF of 1965 to 1970.............

 

[MMHS]

You are ignorant of the great opposition Sobers played against and the great players he played with and against.He played aginst Richie Benuad,Alan Davidson,Graham Mckenzie,Dennis Lillee,Ian and Greg Chappell,Sunil Gavaskar,Subhash Gupte,Vinoo Mankad,Fred Truemna,Peter May,Ted Dexter,Colin Cowdrey,Ken Barrington,TomGraveney,Alan Knottetc.His contempoararise included the 3 W'S,Rohan Kanhai,Wes Hall etc.Gary played against the strongest of English nad Australian teams.

Anyway, your post has the clue in it - why Sober's was stand out. Benaud retired in 1961, Miller in 1958, Dexter in 1960, Mankad in 1956-7, Davidson in 1962 ............ may be 1/2 years either side but that gave Sober's the free track for 10 peak years of his career. His biggest competitor as all-rounder was Intekhab Alam.

I am preparing something on teams by decade - if you have time to read that, 'll understand that I am also aware of these names, who they were & their quality. Probably, that's why I could write that Sober's was a bit over hyped shiner - it's not about playing against Trueman, Benaud, Davidson, Statham or Miller - it's about what you did against them. I suggest, try to check the bowling table of PAK in his epic innings of 365*.....


Before calling me ignorant, check your level - find out how many Tests Sobers had played against Lillee......

 

[Chrish]

Anyway, your post has the clue in it - why Sober's was stand out. Benaud retired in 1961, Miller in 1958, Dexter in 1960, Mankad in 1956-7, Davidson in 1962 ............ may be 1/2 years either side but that gave Sober's the free track for 10 peak years of his career. His biggest competitor as all-rounder was Intekhab Alam.

I am preparing something on teams by decade - if you have time to read that, 'll understand that I am also aware of these names, who they were & their quality. Probably, that's why I could write that Sober's was a bit over hyped shiner - it's not about playing against Trueman, Benaud, Davidson, Statham or Miller - it's about what you did against them. I suggest, try to check the bowling table of PAK in his epic innings of 365*.....


Before calling me ignorant, check your level - find out how many Tests Sobers had played against Lillee......

Sobers did brilliant against Davidson.. Against Lindwall/ miller averaged around 37 which isn't too bad considering it was his 1st real series at the age of 20 if memory serves me right.. Also did brilliant against Trueman/ Statham at home but didn't do well playing them in England.. England had some tough wickets back then..

 

[MMHS]

Sobers did brilliant against Davidson.. Against Lindwall/ miller averaged around 37 which isn't too bad considering it was his 1st real series at the age of 20 if memory serves me right.. Also did brilliant against Trueman/ Statham at home but didn't do well playing them in England.. England had some tough wickets back then..[/QUOTE]

Actually no - check the scores of TCCB Tests from 1958 & there after. It's true that he played Trueman, Miller, Benaud, Davidson, Statham & Laker mostly before turning 25, but it's also true that most of these great fast men were into their 30 by that time. There is always a hind side, if you look into something in details.

There is no denying that Gary Sobers was one of the greatest ever, more importantly, he played the game in proper spirit. Once he declared giving ENG chance to level the Series chasing 215 in 170 minutes AND kept 17 overs/hour rate to lose with 5 minutes at hand. He was an out standing entertainer, played the game the way he enjoyed best. For that, he was pathetic in saving any Test, but that's Gary Sobers.

My point was, he was a batting all-rounder who 'll always be No. 6 on any Test team; but at the same time Imran was the perfect all-rounder who 'll always be at No. 7 for any Test team. And this is where, Sobers bullies every one, which I don't agree with. One can't compare Kallis with Wasim; just like Imran vs Sobers.

Besides, humbleness was a word missing from Sobers' dictionary. He was arrogant, self boasting & narcissus. It was not polite for him to say that if this Youngman (Imran) bowls faster than Lillee, than Lillee must be bowling at half pace. If you ever read his book - 20 years back (basically a comparison between Lloyd's '84 ENG Tour team & his '63 tour team), you 'll fill disgusted. He picked Hunt & Butcher over Grineedge & Haynes; kept Viv & Kanhai at per, picked Alexender over Doujon; picked Hall over Holding, Griffith over Garner, Gibbs over Roberts ..................... and icing on the cake - David Halford over Malcom Marshall. And, downplayed that 5-0 over his 3-1 by taking out up to the underwear of Botham, Gower, Willis, Gooch.......

 

[sivaji]

Sobers was three bowlers moulded into one .Above all Sobers could turn a ball with both bat and ball considerably more than Imran.

Personally,in the moral sense as a pure all-rounder Imran Khan or arguably any other all-rounder ,bar Jacques Kallis is not in the same league as Gary Sobers.Statistics just does not tell the accurate story.Sobers was like an immortal to the game of cricket-a three into one cricketer.Whether bowling ,batting or fielding Sobers could turn a game totally upside down.In addition to being arguably amongst the top 3-4 batsmen of all time Sobers was amongst the most versatile bowlers in cricket history.He could bowl fast,fast-medium,spin and chinaman.Gary could turn a game or series with both bat and ball which no all-rounder could ever consistently apart from Botham and Miller at their peak.True,Imran was a better bowler but could not be at his best with both bat and ball or turn games or series with both bat and ball.Where did Imran ever emulate Gary's 583 runs and 21 wickets for Rest of the World in England in 1972 or his 722 runs and 20 wickets in England in 1966.Nor has Imran surpassed Gary's 113 and 8-168 at Kingston v England in 1968-69.Imran was a great fast bowler who became a very good batsmen late in his career.Remember that in his peak period Sobers captured 4 wickets per test.With both bat and ball at their best Botham and Miller came closer to Sobers while consistently in a career Kallis was closest to Sobers.What places Imran closer to Sobers than Kallis,Miller or Botham as a cricketer were his great achievements as a skipper.Even the Imran of 1982-88 was more of a great fast bowler than batsman.Figures hardly do justice to Sobers as a bowler who could be devastating with different styles.Even if Imran has great figures all experts or past greats rated Sobers in a higher league.Gary is a unaninmous choice in an all-time world xi,Imran is not.Imran may accompany Gary in the 1st xi or probabaly make the 2nd team.More cricketing experts chose Gary Sobers with Wasim Akram in the 1st xi.Even if Kallis had marginally better stats he could not turn a game in as explosive manner as Sobers with both ball and bat.Sobers made the impact of a hurricane on a cricket field.Imran's peak era as an all-rounder does not equal Sobers statistically.At their best Sobers would turn games more than Imran because of greater all-round skill.Sobers was the equivalent of a Bradman to a side as an all-rounder.Read what Ian Chappell,Ian Botham,Mike Procter,Richard Hadlee or Sunil Gavaskar have to say about Sobers when choosing him in their all-time xi.Imran is still not in the same league as Sobers or Bradman but in the category of a Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar as a cricketer overall.Remember Cristopher Martin Jenkins,Geoff Armstrong,John Woodcock and rated Sobers in the top 3 of all time and compare him favourably with Bradman.Sobers attained towering heights which superlatives cannot describe.If any cricketer came closest to posessing cricketing genius Sobers was the first candidate.He reached a zenith of performance levels that no cricketer ever equalled.Imran no doubt would serve a team better as fast -bowling all-rounder but overall it may have taken 2 Imran Khan's to surpass one Gary Sobers.Sadly critiques on pakpassion have hardly respected the fact that assesing greatness is not all about statistics.Even statistically Sobers overshadows Imran.To replace Sobers with Kallis is a marginally better choice.I don't deny Imran greatness,he may even edge Viv or Sachin.However we have to respect cricket historians.Inspite of superior statistical figures Kallis is not ranked in the same class as Gary.

Never forget Sobers played against great Australian and English sides,amongst some of the best players the game has ever seen.

Sobers tends to get overrated a bit. Kallis doesn't get as much recognition as Sobers because Sobers was the first proper all-rounder and we have had a few more after him. Similar to how Lillee gets rated higher than McGrath because Lillee was the first of his kind of aggressive fast bowler. If Kallis was born in Sobers era and Sobers was born in the Kallis era, Kallis would have been given more love.

 

[sivaji]

Imran winning 8 MOS award kinda surprised me. It's hard to separate Sobers and Imran but Imran's batting gets overrated a bit.

 

[Hitman]

Sobers tends to get overrated a bit. Kallis doesn't get as much recognition as Sobers because Sobers was the first proper all-rounder and we have had a few more after him. Similar to how Lillee gets rated higher than McGrath because Lillee was the first of his kind of aggressive fast bowler. If Kallis was born in Sobers era and Sobers was born in the Kallis era, Kallis would have been given more love.

Keith Miller.

 

[sivaji]

Keith Miller.

should have mentioned proper batting all rounder..

in the true sense of an all rounder, Miller was the best.

 

[Robert]

Sobers tends to get overrated a bit. Kallis doesn't get as much recognition as Sobers because Sobers was the first proper all-rounder and we have had a few more after him.

No, it's because Sobers was a frequent game-changing player whereas Kallis wasn't to that extent. Also Kallis was something of a minnow-basher while Sobers was more of a minnow-couldn't-be-bothered.

 

[Robert]

My point was, he was a batting all-rounder who 'll always be No. 6 on any Test team; but at the same time Imran was the perfect all-rounder who 'll always be at No. 7 for any Test team.

I agree with this.

 

[IndianWillow]

Anyway, your post has the clue in it - why Sober's was stand out. Benaud retired in 1961, Miller in 1958, Dexter in 1960, Mankad in 1956-7, Davidson in 1962 ............ may be 1/2 years either side but that gave Sober's the free track for 10 peak years of his career. His biggest competitor as all-rounder was Intekhab Alam.

I am preparing something on teams by decade - if you have time to read that, 'll understand that I am also aware of these names, who they were & their quality. Probably, that's why I could write that Sober's was a bit over hyped shiner - it's not about playing against Trueman, Benaud, Davidson, Statham or Miller - it's about what you did against them. I suggest, try to check the bowling table of PAK in his epic innings of 365*.....


Before calling me ignorant, check your level - find out how many Tests Sobers had played against Lillee......

LOL.

Here is a comparison chart that shows Sobers versus his contemporary all rounders, and Imran versus his contemporaries. It can be easily inferred why Sobers gets more chocolates - he was a colossus all rounder for his era (his nearest challengers were far below, most of them were barely all rounders), a la Don Bradman for batting, while Imran was competing with several great all rounders in a highly competitive era. There were no proper all rounders during Sober's period that whoever saw or heard of him became completely enchanted by his exploits. No all rounder of the 70s and 80s enjoyed that attention.

 

[sivaji]

No, it's because Sobers was a frequent game-changing player whereas Kallis wasn't to that extent. Also Kallis was something of a minnow-basher while Sobers was more of a minnow-couldn't-be-bothered.

Kallis was a minnow basher? Lol he averages like 52 or something against the top 8 nations without including Bang and Zimb. That's more than Sachin, Lara, Ponting etc average.

Sobers was like KP type of eye-catching player who takes all the credit for the win when there were lot of factors contributed to the win. You don't win most number of man of the matches and man of the series without being a game changer.

Sobers bashed Pakistan and India so badly who were the minnows of the time. Was okaish against Australia.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Sobers did brilliant against Davidson.. Against Lindwall/ miller averaged around 37 which isn't too bad considering it was his 1st real series at the age of 20 if memory serves me right.. Also did brilliant against Trueman/ Statham at home but didn't do well playing them in England.. England had some tough wickets back then..[/QUOTE]

Actually no - check the scores of TCCB Tests from 1958 & there after. It's true that he played Trueman, Miller, Benaud, Davidson, Statham & Laker mostly before turning 25, but it's also true that most of these great fast men were into their 30 by that time. There is always a hind side, if you look into something in details.

There is no denying that Gary Sobers was one of the greatest ever, more importantly, he played the game in proper spirit. Once he declared giving ENG chance to level the Series chasing 215 in 170 minutes AND kept 17 overs/hour rate to lose with 5 minutes at hand. He was an out standing entertainer, played the game the way he enjoyed best. For that, he was pathetic in saving any Test, but that's Gary Sobers.

My point was, he was a batting all-rounder who 'll always be No. 6 on any Test team; but at the same time Imran was the perfect all-rounder who 'll always be at No. 7 for any Test team. And this is where, Sobers bullies every one, which I don't agree with. One can't compare Kallis with Wasim; just like Imran vs Sobers.

Besides, humbleness was a word missing from Sobers' dictionary. He was arrogant, self boasting & narcissus. It was not polite for him to say that if this Youngman (Imran) bowls faster than Lillee, than Lillee must be bowling at half pace. If you ever read his book - 20 years back (basically a comparison between Lloyd's '84 ENG Tour team & his '63 tour team), you 'll fill disgusted. He picked Hunt & Butcher over Grineedge & Haynes; kept Viv & Kanhai at per, picked Alexender over Doujon; picked Hall over Holding, Griffith over Garner, Gibbs over Roberts ..................... and icing on the cake - David Halford over Malcom Marshall. And, downplayed that 5-0 over his 3-1 by taking out up to the underwear of Botham, Gower, Willis, Gooch.......

I feel Botham at his best from 1977-82 like in the 1981 Ashes or the 1980 Jubilee test was by a few inches would be a more eligible candidate than Imran or even Keith Miller at his peak.Imran was not at his best with both bat and ball.From 1991-88 no doubt he was the champion all-rounder and arguably best cricketer in the world.Imran may have been the best of match-winners but was generally a great fast-bowling all-rounder while both Miller and Botham were marginally more genuine all-rounders.

 

[MMHS]

Somewhere, in PP I read that Sobers used to take 4 wickets/Test when he played as bowler or something like that - well, that's again a super hype out of proportion. His 1st double (100/1000) is on 48th Test, 2nd on 80th.

That's <100 wickets in first 47 & <200 wickets in first 79 Test. And, I must say, in between he had lots of Test matches against PAK, IND & NZ of 50s & 60s......... "Sober's could win a match simply as bowler" sort of myth was sold easily when he was competing with Trevor Bailey, Illingworth & Intekhab as premier all-rounder.

 

[street cricketer]

Let's just get it over with once and for all..

Who was the better cricketer (including all disciplines)?

Who would be the first name on your team sheet?

I know they both played different roles but you have to take everything into account before arriving at a conclusion for the best all rounder ever..

 

[Snatch]

Had posted this in another thread, but feel it should be here as well as an example of how truly universal cricket experts, writers & past players see these two


This is a brilliant example, (Wisden's 5 cricketers of the century) & probably the most comprehensive one I've seen since it was across 100 cricket experts, writers and past players across a whole bunch of nations, including 11 from the West Indies & 8 from Pakistan, and this was done around the year 2000, so well after Imran's career was complete.

Here's the number of nominees each player got, and you'll see Sobers received 90 out of 100, & Imran just 13... I mean that is an enormous difference, and you can't put that down to bias since the cross section was across many cricket nations.

1. Sir Donald Bradman 100
2. Sir Garfield Sobers 90
3. Sir Jack Hobbs 30
4. S. K. Warne 27
5. Sir Vivian Richards 25
6. D. K. Lillee 19
Sir Frank Worrell 19
8. W. R. Hammond 18
9. D. C. S. Compton 14
10. Sir Richard Hadlee 13
Imran Khan 13
12. S. M. Gavaskar 12
13. S. F. Barnes 11
Sir Leonard Hutton 11
15. W. J. O'Reilly 10
16. I. T. Botham 9
17. H. Larwood 6
R. R. Lindwall 6
S. R. Tendulkar 6
20. R. Benaud 5
G. A. Headley 5
Kapil Dev 5
23. R. G. Pollock 4
W. Rhodes 4
V. T. Trumper 4
26. T. G. Evans 3
M. D. Marshall 3
Wasim Akram 3
29. Sir Alec Bedser 2
C. V. Grimmett 2
F. S. Trueman 2
F. E. Woolley 2
33. C. E. L. Ambrose 1
K. C. Bland 1
A. R. Border 1
B. J. T. Bosanquet 1
B. S. Chandrasekhar 1
I. M. Chappell 1
Lord Constantine 1
A. A. Donald 1
A. P. Freeman 1
L. R. Gibbs 1
M. A. Holding 1
C. H. Lloyd 1
S. J. McCabe 1
B. Mitchell 1
K. S. Ranjitsinhji 1
M. W. Tate 1
Sir Pelham Warner 1

Here's the panel of judges who voted;

THE ELECTORATE

England (28)

Jonathan Agnew
Trevor Bailey
Jack Bannister
Sir Alec Bedser
Scyld Berry
Dickie Bird
Brian Close
Lord Cowdrey
Ted Dexter
Matthew Engel
Alf Gover
Tom Graveney
Frank Keating
Tony Lewis
George Mann
Vic Marks
Christopher Martin-Jenkins
Derek Pringle
Netta Rheinberg
Mike Selvey
E. W. Swanton
Bob Taylor
Fred Trueman
Crawford White
John Woodcock
Ian Wooldridge
Peter Wynne-Thomas
Australia (20)

Greg Baum
Percy Beames
Richie Benaud
Bill Brown
Richard Cashman
Ian Chappell
Mike Coward
Alan Davidson
Gideon Haigh
Murray Hedgcock
John Inverarity
Bill Lawry
Peter McFarline
Jim Maxwell
Arthur Morris
Jack Pollard
Paul Sheahan
Bob Simpson
Cec Starr
Steve Waugh
South Africa (11)

Ali Bacher
Eddie Barlow
Colin Bryden
Russell Endean
Trevor Goddard
Norman Gordon
Michael Owen-Smith
Peter Pollock
Krish Reddy
Peter van der Merwe
John Waite
West Indies (11)

Gerry Alexander
Tony Becca
Sir Carlisle Burton
Tony Cozier
Esmond Kentish
Clive Lloyd
Reds Pereira
Allan Rae
Donna Symmonds
Sir Clyde Walcott
Sir Everton Weekes
India (10)

Mihir Bose
Dilip Doshi
Sunil Gavaskar
Ayaz Memon
R. Mohan
K. N. Prabhu
Raj Singh
Kris Srikkanth
Polly Umrigar
S. Venkataraghavan
New Zealand (8)

Dick Brittenden
Don Cameron
Walter Hadlee
Don Neely
John R. Reid
Bert Sutcliffe
Lindsay Weir
Graeme Wright
Pakistan (8)

Arif Abbasi
Fareshteh Gati
Hanif Mohammad
Intikhab Alam
Javed Burki
Mushtaq Mohammad
Omar Kureishi
Qamar Ahmed
Sri Lanka (3)

Stanley Jayasinghe
Ranjan Madugalle
Gerry Vaidyasekera
Zimbabwe (1)

Dave Houghton

 

[Bilal7]

Imran Khan is the greatest all-rounder and arguably, cricketer, of all time. No one came close in terms of the total package that Khan offered.

I also cannot be bothered to use a 17 year old survey to make this distinction, that was full of people that grew up idolizing Gary Sobers. At the end of the day, stats don't lie and Sobers SR of 92 as a bowler pulls him down below Imran.

1) Imran
2) Miller
3) Sobers
4) Kallis
5) Botham

This is how the hierarchy stands as of now.

 

[Chrish]

Reading my own previous posts/ threads amazes me sometimes

Scary how much opinions can change overtime

 

[Midwinter13992]

Gary Sobers was better player between two...Averaging 57 with bat in the era of uncovered pitches is a huge achievement ... Plus more than handy with the ball
1.Gary Sobers / Ian Botham (1st half )
2.Jacques Kallis
3.Keith Miller
4.Mike Proctor
5.Kapil Dev / Imran Khan