Germany’s 1st ‘liberal mosque’ opens in Berlin, bans niqabs & burkas

[TalentSpotterPk]

St. Johannes Church, home to Ibn Ruschd-Goethe mosque. © Bodo Kubrak / Wikipedia



Germany's first “liberal mosque” has opened inside a Protestant church in Berlin. Niqabs and burkas will be banned from the place of worship, with its organizer saying they are a “political statement” and “have nothing to do with religion.”

“Fundamentally, the mosque’s door is open for everyone, with one exception: No one will come in with a niqab or burka,” organizer Seyran Ates, who moved to Germany from Turkey when she was six years old, told Spiegel Online.

Banning the headwear often worn by females in the Muslim community isn't the only modern-day twist being brought to the Ibn Ruschd-Goethe mosque, which is named after Islamic philosopher Ibn Rushd (Averroes) and iconic German author Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, according to the Berliner Morgenpost.


According to Ates, men and women will also be allowed to pray and preach together, rather than separately. Members of the LGBT community will also be welcomed.

Sunni and Shiite Muslims are also encouraged to pray together at the mosque.

“Our goal is to offer a place to worship to all people that do not feel at home in the existing mosques, to women that seek equal rights [with men], to homosexuals and primarily to all separate [Muslim] denominations: Alawites, Sunnis and Schias,” Ates told Ruptly.

Ates, a feminist, peace activist and lawyer, said she felt it was "ultimately irresponsible" for a progressive Muslim woman like herself to simply complain about conservative Islamic organizations, rather than start her own mosque.

She said she was inspired to launch the mosque after speaking to Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble, who once told her that liberal Muslims should band together.

“I worked on this idea for eight years and finally found supporters,” she told Ruptly, adding that she believes that all those people who came to her aid did it because they “were fed up” with conservative Islam and had “courage to express their true thoughts despite all the threats.”

Ates is renting space for the mosque from the Protestant St. Johannes Church. However, she previously told DPA that she hopes the mosque will one day have its own building.

She said she aims to reach "those who have not felt at home in any mosque in Berlin," who want to live a"modern, peaceful, liberal, and tolerant faith" and "do not want any politically divisive sermons."


She also hopes she can reach more conservative Muslims, noting that this is only achieved "through setting an example, open doors, in a space where every question can be asked."

“Here we do not tell anyone what a good Muslim is, and what a bad one is.”

The first day of prayer will see Ates preach in German, with her words translated into Turkish and Arabic.

However, Ates said the path to opening the mosque hasn't been entirely smooth, and that she has received some "very violent and obscene" threats which prompted her to request police protection at the mosque's Friday opening.

Ates admitted she was afraid for her security, but her primary concern was the security of the congregation. “I can take care of myself and say, ‘It is my life,’ however, I am afraid that something happens to the others,” she told Ruptly, adding that she must“protect her people.”


https://www.rt.com/news/392558-german-mosque-bans-burqas/

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

All this won't go down well with practicing Muslims but this is a result of acts of evil ISIS terrorists and other terrorist outfits like them.


Extremist/Fanatic/Barbaric picture and acts of Islam yields this.


On the other hand what is happening in Germany ?

On the other hand German Public's Anti Mosque Protest against Muslims Mosque's approval :

Acts of Terrorists and even Peaceful practicing Muslims from all Sects suffer massively.

My Community in last 40 years has built 5000 mosques in Germany. Such kind & accomodating German governments were. Germans believed in Freedom of religion and religious practices for all but post Isis attacks where innocent people got killed German government won't gove away NOC's for building Mosques and scrutiny will be tough for all which is absolutely justified.

 

[KingKhanWC]

This is no mosque but some new age 'liberal' cult entity. We have had these in other France, England and US. People are free to do as they please but don't claim you are following Islam because you are not.

 

[troodon]

This is no mosque but some new age 'liberal' cult entity. We have had these in other France, England and US. People are free to do as they please but don't claim you are following Islam because you are not.

Why would you not call it a Mosque? Is it because it bans Burqa and allows Gender mixing and Homosexuals?

 

[Saeed]

Lol. Well they explained this pretty well themselves so need for anyone else's input.

with its organizer saying they are a “political statement” and “have nothing to do with religion.”

I won't be surprised if it closes down in few years because no one goes there.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Why would you not call it a Mosque? Is it because it bans Burqa and allows Gender mixing and Homosexuals?

A Masjid should not discriminate on sects. You can't refuse entry to someone who has their face covered. It may not be Islamic in nature but Islam accepts cultures as long as people are not breaking the rules, covered clothing does not.

Women and men can and should both attend mosques but have seperate areas. Standing side by side in prayer is not allowed and you will not find a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise.

Homosexuals and others isn't an issue unless they openly promote this as being fine in Islam. It's not a lifestyle which is in line with Islamic principles but neither is snorting cocaine or drinking alcohol but plenty of people do this and go to the mosque.

The main reason it cannot be called a mosque is because it's teachings and sermons will not be in line with Islamic principles. Can a Hindu Temple be called a Hindu Temple while people bring in beef to eat with their prayers?

 

[James]

A Masjid should not discriminate on sects. You can't refuse entry to someone who has their face covered. It may not be Islamic in nature but Islam accepts cultures as long as people are not breaking the rules, covered clothing does not.

Women and men can and should both attend mosques but have seperate areas. Standing side by side in prayer is not allowed and you will not find a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise.

Homosexuals and others isn't an issue unless they openly promote this as being fine in Islam. It's not a lifestyle which is in line with Islamic principles but neither is snorting cocaine or drinking alcohol but plenty of people do this and go to the mosque.

The main reason it cannot be called a mosque is because it's teachings and sermons will not be in line with Islamic principles. Can a Hindu Temple be called a Hindu Temple while people bring in beef to eat with their prayers?

Generally I agree. The bit I really don't like here is that niqabs and burkas are banned. For a so-called 'liberal' establishment, surely it is not at all liberal when you ban things that aren't harming other people - and when you don't let people choose what they want to wear!

 

[Saeed]

Why would you not call it a Mosque? Is it because it bans Burqa and allows Gender mixing and Homosexuals?

Mosques don't ask people if they are Homosexuals or for some sort of ID. Many non-Muslims in America go to Mosques to see what what they are like. Anyone can enter a mosque but this one is built to further their political agenda, not to worship God so it cannot be called a Mosque.

 

[Stewie]

I have never been to Germany but every time they show it on tv or show pictures, like the one in the OP, it looks dull, dreary, cloudy, cold and depressing. Is it really this depressing there 24/7/365?

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Mosques don't ask people if they are Homosexuals or for some sort of ID. Many non-Muslims in America go to Mosques to see what what they are like. Anyone can enter a mosque but this one is built to further their political agenda, not to worship God so it cannot be called a Mosque.

Define a Mosque from Islamic literature for me.

Thanks.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

Generally I agree. The bit I really don't like here is that niqabs and burkas are banned. For a so-called 'liberal' establishment, surely it is not at all liberal when you ban things that aren't harming other people - and when you don't let people choose what they want to wear!

Thanks James. I agree with you. Your Liberal though process and ideology is appreciated. May God bless you.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Generally I agree. The bit I really don't like here is that niqabs and burkas are banned. For a so-called 'liberal' establishment, surely it is not at all liberal when you ban things that aren't harming other people - and when you don't let people choose what they want to wear!

It seems many groups like to label themselves as 'liberal' in order to portray a tolerant view of themselves. If the first thing they do is refuse entry on the ground of clothing, they are the opposite of liberal. No church I know would ever stop anyone from coming inside. House of God should be open to all.

 

[Saeed]

Define a Mosque from Islamic literature for me.

Thanks.

I haven't read Islamic literature. This is not even a matter of individual opinion, pretty much every Muslim identifies Mosque as a place to worship God. What do you think a Mosque is?

 

[notAgainPlease]

Why would you not call it a Mosque? Is it because it bans Burqa and allows Gender mixing and Homosexuals?

Homosexuals can pray anytime, they are not disallowed. Homesexuality is not allowed but it does not mean that you cant go mosque. Its like saying if you drink or have premarital sex, you cant come mosque. If that was the case, lot of people wont be able to come to masjid

 

[ahmedzee]

If no hijab is allowed how are girls suppose to pray. From what I know, you are supposed to cover your head when you pray.

 

[KingKhanWC]

If no hijab is allowed how are girls suppose to pray. From what I know, you are supposed to cover your head when you pray.

It's not Hijab but Burka, anything which covers the face.

 

[James]

Thanks James. I agree with you. Your Liberal though process and ideology is appreciated. May God bless you.

Thank you.

It seems many groups like to label themselves as 'liberal' in order to portray a tolerant view of themselves. If the first thing they do is refuse entry on the ground of clothing, they are the opposite of liberal. No church I know would ever stop anyone from coming inside. House of God should be open to all.

Liberal bigotry seems to be common. And totally agree that everyone should be welcome.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I haven't read Islamic literature. This is not even a matter of individual opinion, pretty much every Muslim identifies Mosque as a place to worship God. What do you think a Mosque is?

So this place is for Worshipping Jesus Christ ?


You can disagree from mixing of genders in Mosque plus birqa niqab ban plus disagree with homosexuality as well from which Allah prohibits. But let it be a religious disagreement only.


We are nobody to declare who is Muslim and what is a Mosque and what isn't ? Let Allah be the judge.


What is their intent ? The Intent to rent this place is to worship Allah and those people identify themselves as Muslim. So Yes when it comes to my beliefs I don't believe a women can lead prayers where muqtaddis are Men. Yes I believe in Islam homosexuality isn't allowed and is a sin. Yes I believe that Men and Women can only pray together ie congregational pray if they are Mahram whereas in other instances the room or halls for men and women have to be seperate and they cannot pray together so I disagree with them here aswell but


This does not allow me to say they are not Muslim or their place of Worshipping isn't a Mosque plus I do not have the humam right to stop them from doing it through physical means. I can only advise them or have a religious dialogue with them and that is it.


I posted Norway's most beautiful Mosque picture on PP and a Barelvi Muslim said this is not a Mosque it is a temple. Hahahaha. Temple Lolz.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

It's not Hijab but Burka, anything which covers the face.

You learn Islamic terms before its too late. Face veil is Naqaab/Niqaab. Burqa is the combo of long coat and scarf. You can either use the scarf as hijab ie covering your breast and head or make a veil/niqaab and cover your face in a manner where you are not identified by men outside your family.


Nobody wears Burqa on face lolz. Hehehe

 

[KingKhanWC]

You learn Islamic terms before its too late. Face veil is Naqaab/Niqaab. Burqa is the combo of long coat and scarf. You can either use the scarf as hijab ie covering your breast and head or make a veil/niqaab and cover your face in a manner where you are not identified by men outside your family.


Nobody wears Burqa on face lolz. Hehehe

I would rather not learn from you tbh.

A Burka is a garment which covers head to toe. In this particular case the ban is on women covering their face which is why they have also banned the Niqab. I would have thought this was plainly obvious . But then again it's obvious the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) was the last and final prophet and messenger but there are still those who think some bloke from India has followed.

 

[Saeed]

So this place is for Worshipping Jesus Christ ?


You can disagree from mixing of genders in Mosque plus birqa niqab ban plus disagree with homosexuality as well from which Allah prohibits. But let it be a religious disagreement only.


We are nobody to declare who is Muslim and what is a Mosque and what isn't ? Let Allah be the judge.


What is their intent ? The Intent to rent this place is to worship Allah and those people identify themselves as Muslim. So Yes when it comes to my beliefs I don't believe a women can lead prayers where muqtaddis are Men. Yes I believe in Islam homosexuality isn't allowed and is a sin. Yes I believe that Men and Women can only pray together ie congregational pray if they are Mahram whereas in other instances the room or halls for men and women have to be seperate and they cannot pray together so I disagree with them here aswell but


This does not allow me to say they are not Muslim or their place of Worshipping isn't a Mosque plus I do not have the humam right to stop them from doing it through physical means. I can only advise them or have a religious dialogue with them and that is it.


I posted Norway's most beautiful Mosque picture on PP and a Barelvi Muslim said this is not a Mosque it is a temple. Hahahaha. Temple Lolz.

No this place is about politics as the organizers themselves said it. They made their intentions pretty clear with their statement, don't even change it.

Please define Mosque in light of Quran and Sunnah?

It is a religious disagreement. Since you're a student of religion, do you think this is how we are supposed to worship in a Mosque? Allah(swt) is the judge, that's why Quran exists so we can live according to it. Do you believe Quran teaches us what this so called Mosque is doing? Of course they can call themselves whatever they want and I will call them whatever I want. I personally believe people sending them threats are low IQ idiots and should discuss their issues in a civilized manner in that same political building. And you are right, everyone should advise them in a civilized manner or just let them be.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I would rather not learn from you tbh.

A Burka is a garment which covers head to toe. In this particular case the ban is on women covering their face which is why they have also banned the Niqab. I would have thought this was plainly obvious . But then again it's obvious the Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) was the last and final prophet and messenger but there are still those who think some bloke from India has followed.

King (allegedly) I have read your Biography on PP you are quite new so evolving

Holy Quran : (7:35)

O children of Adam, if there come to you messengers from among you relating to you My verses, then whoever fears Allah and reforms - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.



And Yeah don't teach me Urdu I don't need google to tell me what a niqaab is and what a burqa is. Urdu is my language.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

No this place is about politics as the organizers themselves said it. They made their intentions pretty clear with their statement, don't even change it.

Please define Mosque in light of Quran and Sunnah?

It is a religious disagreement. Since you're a student of religion, do you think this is how we are supposed to worship in a Mosque? Allah(swt) is the judge, that's why Quran exists so we can live according to it. Do you believe Quran teaches us what this so called Mosque is doing? Of course they can call themselves whatever they want and I will call them whatever I want. I personally believe people sending them threats are low IQ idiots and should discuss their issues in a civilized manner in that same political building. And you are right, everyone should advise them in a civilized manner or just let them be.

If a Church is bought and converted into a Mosque when will you wish to call it a mosque ?

 

[Saeed]

If a Church is bought and converted into a Mosque when will you wish to call it a mosque ?

It depends on the intentions of owners. If they build it for the purpose of worshiping Allah(swt) then it is a Mosque.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

It depends on the intentions of owners. If they build it for the purpose of worshiping Allah(swt) then it is a Mosque.

Thank You. Sanity prevailed. Stay blessed.

 

[Saeed]

Thank You. Sanity prevailed. Stay blessed.

You too, have a nice day.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

You too, have a nice day.

I am glad that we agreed on something Alhamdoulillah. Mind you majority won't agree with what you wrote in post number 25 and will put special clauses in your statement to counter people

 

[Saeed]

I am glad that we agreed on something Alhamdoulillah. Mind you majority won't agree with what you wrote in post number 25 and will put special clauses in your statement to counter people

That's ok as long as the majority remain non-violent. Everyone is not going to agree, not a big deal. Pakistan should organize platforms for different religious/non religious groups so majority can get used to different opinions. Suppressing views of people only makes them more intolerant.

 

[Justcrazy]

These people are funded by anti Islam groups . This has been going on for ages , it is not new. They want people to move away from shariah of Muhammad SAW , because they know that Islam is the only religion that has a a code of conduct alive and people practicing it.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

That's ok as long as the majority remain non-violent. Everyone is not going to agree, not a big deal. Pakistan should organize platforms for different religious/non religious groups so majority can get used to different opinions. Suppressing views of people only makes them more intolerant.

It is highly unlikely in the coming 25 years atleast. In a country where deep state through stooges on tv hurl allegation of blasphemy on PM of country because of his certain words uttered during Diwali celebrations speech. And it is well known that such allegatiins result in killing. So this is highly unlikely.

 

[wasimjunior]

Generally I agree. The bit I really don't like here is that niqabs and burkas are banned. For a so-called 'liberal' establishment, surely it is not at all liberal when you ban things that aren't harming other people - and when you don't let people choose what they want to wear!

Superb point

 

[Donal Cozzie]

I have never been to Germany but every time they show it on tv or show pictures, like the one in the OP, it looks dull, dreary, cloudy, cold and depressing. Is it really this depressing there 24/7/365?

Nope. Living here since september and its an amazing place full of kind hard working people. Certain parts of the country are also quite beautiful believe it or not

 

[marlonbrowndo]

This is a joke

 

[Pakistanian]

This is a joke

How so? They're just another school of thought. Even Ismaili Muslims don't wear heardscarves in their mosques.

 

[Robert]

Generally I agree. The bit I really don't like here is that niqabs and burkas are banned. For a so-called 'liberal' establishment, surely it is not at all liberal when you ban things that aren't harming other people - and when you don't let people choose what they want to wear!

As a card-carrying Liberal I believe that one of the values of an open society is that you show your face.

 

[Robert]

The main reason it cannot be called a mosque is because it's teachings and sermons will not be in line with Islamic principles. Can a Hindu Temple be called a Hindu Temple while people bring in beef to eat with their prayers?

According to the Bible, Christian women should cover their heads and never speak in church. But now they are free to do both and the first female bishops are being ordained. Soon, Christian pastors will start to marry gay couples.

Christianity's strength is that it moves with the times - it sees itself as part of culture instead of above it.

 

[Enigma_]

Hahaha this is going to annoy some people on here.

 

[Gilly]

According to the Bible, Christian women should cover their heads and never speak in church. But now they are free to do both and the first female bishops are being ordained. Soon, Christian pastors will start to marry gay couples.

Christianity's strength is that it moves with the times - it sees itself as part of culture instead of above it.

From that statement you obviously think that other/some religions think they are above culture.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

As a card-carrying Liberal I believe that one of the values of an open society is that you show your face.

In Today's world Mary Pbuh would have been ridiculed, abused, threatened & targetted by millions. She wouldn't have been allowed to do certain jobs / customer services because of covering her head and body modesly. Such has the world come to in 2017.

I side with [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] , as a liberal one does not have the previlage to dictate women on what they can or should wear and what they shouldn't wear.

What is religious freedom ? If as per a religion a women is supposed to cover her face and state does not permit this than the state is denying her basic fundamental human rights. Identification can be done through cards, biometric machines, scanners aswell. Women who wear veil can be checked by women security officers (physically) as well to ensure security and safety or people could pass through scanners aswell.


In a liberal world a women isn't compelled to show Robert her face or how she looks. If she wants she can. If she wants not to than she cannot be compelled.

 

[Gilly]

In Today's world Mary Pbuh would have been ridiculed, abused, threatened & targetted by millions. She wouldn't have been allowed to do certain jobs / customer services because of covering her head and body modesly. Such has the world come to in 2017.

I side with [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] , as a liberal one does not have the previlage to dictate women on what they can or should wear and what they shouldn't wear.

What is religious freedom ? If as per a religion a women is supposed to cover her face and state does not permit this than the state is denying her basic fundamental human rights. Identification can be done through cards, biometric machines, scanners aswell. Women who wear veil can be checked by women security officers (physically) as well to ensure security and safety or people could pass through scanners aswell.


In a liberal world a women isn't compelled to show Robert her face or how she looks. If she wants she can. If she wants not to than she cannot be compelled.

In todays world religion has to conform to society not the other way around. Basic fundamental rights is guided by the people as a whole and not by individual religion/sect.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

According to the Bible, Christian women should cover their heads and never speak in church. But now they are free to do both and the first female bishops are being ordained. Soon, Christian pastors will start to marry gay couples.

Christianity's strength is that it moves with the times - it sees itself as part of culture instead of above it.

It's also seen as a weakness by a lot of believing Christians as they have the opinion that it is forced to compromise key beliefs in subservience to non-Christian thought. I remember reading that the Duchess of Kent had converted to Catholicism because she felt that Protestant religion had become so wishy washy that it wasn't really Christianity any more.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

In todays world religion has to conform to society not the other way around. Basic fundamental rights is guided by the people as a whole and not by individual religion/sect.

This is your Opinion. Religion sets some limits which religious people have to follow.


We do not need to redefine fundamental rights.


If People want to leave religion or modify/transform religion for themselves on their own than they are free to do it as it's their life. But if my sister wants to do face veil if she believes that Islam requires her to do it than as a State UK, Germany, Canada, Usa, Australia etc etc should not dictate her not to do it.


If tommorow an ISIS terrorist blows up and it is established than He she was hiding exolosives in underwear so it doesn't mean that authorities have the right to say Hey people walking on roads should be Nude in any and all cases.


James is not a Muslim and He knows modern world aswell as terrorist threats etc but He believes on liberal values and raises voice for it. Now there would be many who would say that No he isn't liberal or what he is asking for aren't liberal values but I personally completely agree with James.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

It's also seen as a weakness by a lot of believing Christians as they have the opinion that it is forced to compromise key beliefs in subservience to non-Christian thought. I remember reading that the Duchess of Kent had converted to Catholicism because she felt that Protestant religion had become so wishy washy that it wasn't really Christianity any more.

Makes Sense.

Is it Katherine ?

 

[Gilly]

This is your Opinion. Religion sets some limits which religious people have to follow.


We do not need to redefine fundamental rights.


If People want to leave religion or modify/transform religion for themselves on their own than they are free to do it as it's their life. But if my sister wants to do face veil if she believes that Islam requires her to do it than as a State UK, Germany, Canada, Usa, Australia etc etc should not dictate her not to do it.


.

The laws of a country override any religious ruling/law, religion has to conform to the laws of a country full stop.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

The laws of a country override any religious ruling/law, religion has to conform to the laws of a country full stop.

Respect your Opinion but I disagree completely. State has to ensure religious rights which are basic human rights. State should not interfere in People's religion or religious practices except for cases when people harm others under the garb of religion. Full Stop.

 

[Gilly]

Respect your Opinion but I disagree completely. State has to ensure religious rights which are basic human rights. State should not interfere in People's religion or religious practices except for cases when people harm others under the garb of religion. Full Stop.

So any mosque cannot stop a woman wearing a bikini from entering?.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

So any mosque cannot stop a woman wearing a bikini from entering?.

Is Mosque State or symbol of state ? pertinent question.


I do not want any Mosque to allow any Women wearing a bikini to enter it but if administration of some Mosque wants to permit or permits entry I won't stop them from doing so.


This is a fine line between disagreeing with people and forcing people to opt for certain orientation be it be dress code or other actions.

 

[Gilly]

Is Mosque State or symbol of state ? pertinent question.


I do not want any Mosque to allow any Women wearing a bikini to enter it but if administration of some Mosque wants to permit or permits entry I won't stop them from doing so.


This is a fine line between disagreeing with people and forcing people to opt for certain orientation be it be dress code or other actions.

OK you dont want a woman wearing a bikini to enter a mosque, what if I own a shop and dont want anyone covering their face entering?.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

OK you dont want a woman wearing a bikini to enter a mosque, what if I own a shop and dont want anyone covering their face entering?.

If this is a lawful act/ethical in your eyes than go ahead.

 

[Gilly]

If this is a lawful act/ethical in your eyes than go ahead.

I read your response to James post >>

I side with [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION] , as a liberal one does not have the previlage to dictate women on what they can or should wear and what they shouldn't wear.

<< How does that conform to mosques dictating what women wear.

 

[James]

As a card-carrying Liberal I believe that one of the values of an open society is that you show your face.

So would you also ban oversized sunglasses, balaclavas, hoodies and big floppy hats?

 

[Gilly]

So would you also ban oversized sunglasses, balaclavas, hoodies and big floppy hats?

Try walking through customs with oversized sunglasses, balaclavas, hoodies and big floppy hats.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Makes Sense.

Is it Katherine ?

I wasn't sure as it was a long time ago, but a quick google search reveals it is. From Wiki:

The Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic Church in 1994.[8] This was a personal decision, and she received the approval of The Queen. As she explained in an interview on BBC, "I do love guidelines and the Catholic Church offers you guidelines. I have always wanted that in my life. I like to know what's expected of me. I like being told: You shall go to church on Sunday and if you don't you're in for it!"

 

[James]

Try walking through customs with oversized sunglasses, balaclavas, hoodies and big floppy hats.

We are not talking about walking through customs into the territory of another country through are we, we are talking about walking about in your own country of which you are an ordinary citizen.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I read your response to James post >><< How does that conform to mosques dictating what women wear.

You are confusing authority of State with authority of Mosque. There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever.


I am part of No Mosque administration so I don't police Men or Women at any Mosque. I expressed by opinion as a practicing Muslim but I did not endorse any Mosque making rules or laws allowing or prohibiting women to enter Mosque.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I wasn't sure as it was a long time ago, but a quick google search reveals it is. From Wiki:

Thanks Captain.

 

[Madplayer]

What a joke this is lol

I mean seriously, this is quite strange. People are free to do what they want but dont associate this thing with Islam. Btw what is this "allowing transgenders" into the mosque about? When were they stopped in the first place? But for women to have a separate place of worship is mandatory in Islam so i'm not sure what they are trying to do here other than deviating from the religion. Do it by all means, you have the freedom. Just dont say you are following the religion as it should be followed.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

“I worked on this idea for eight years and finally found supporters,” she told Ruptly, adding that she believes that all those people who came to her aid did it because they “were fed up” with conservative Islam and had “courage to express their true thoughts despite all the threats.”

Ates is renting space for the mosque from the Protestant St. Johannes Church. However, she previously told DPA that she hopes the mosque will one day have its own building.

Just reading through the article again and a couple of points that part brought to mind:

She worked on this project for eight years so she must ultimately have felt it was something that was important. Most people that didn't like mosques, churches, synagogues etc, just wouldn't attend.

Secondly, she's renting the space to do it. Is she paying this out of her own pocket or does she get funding from somewhere? It's one thing to offer an alternative which probably isn't in demand, quite another to be spending significant time or money on it.

 

[Robert]

So would you also ban oversized sunglasses, balaclavas, hoodies and big floppy hats?

I think you're stretching the point, except regarding balaclavas.

Who spoke about a ban? Not me. I find it tremendously sad that any woman should feel the need to cover her face in the UK. I agree with you that peoples' rights should not be impugned by the state unless the people cause harm, but personal rights are balanced by personal responsibilities - in this case to be readily identifiable in an open and mutually respectful society.

 

[ExpressPacer]

A Masjid should not discriminate on sects. You can't refuse entry to someone who has their face covered. It may not be Islamic in nature but Islam accepts cultures as long as people are not breaking the rules, covered clothing does not.

Women and men can and should both attend mosques but have seperate areas. Standing side by side in prayer is not allowed and you will not find a shred of evidence to suggest otherwise.

Homosexuals and others isn't an issue unless they openly promote this as being fine in Islam. It's not a lifestyle which is in line with Islamic principles but neither is snorting cocaine or drinking alcohol but plenty of people do this and go to the mosque.

The main reason it cannot be called a mosque is because it's teachings and sermons will not be in line with Islamic principles. Can a Hindu Temple be called a Hindu Temple while people bring in beef to eat with their prayers?

To be very honest, I firmly believe that Niqab, Burka's and to some extent the Abaya and complete Hijab is Saudi Arabian culture and not a part of Islam. Niqab/burka is the covering of your face. A veil. It is not allowed in the holiest of mosques, the Harram. S, why shall it be allowed in other mosques?

 

[ExpressPacer]

As a card-carrying Liberal I believe that one of the values of an open society is that you show your face.

Exactly this. Why should a woman have right to keep her identity concealed and commit any crime or act whatsoever while men have to show their faces? The bitter truth is, in this day and age, or in any frankly, there is no room for your face to be veiled. It just leaves a lot of room for the needless loss of lives. You can call it hypocritical or bigotry but the truth is, tough times call for tough measures.

When terrorism and suicide bombings were rampant and at their zenith in Pakistan, I remember the government informing citizens to remain vary of anyone oddly dressed. This especially included anyone wearing a big jacket in warm weather.

Similarly, the veil and the baggy abaya leaves a lot of apprehension and suspicion being created. And I support it being banned because you have all the more reason since it is NOT even a part of Islam. It is purely and primarily Saudi Arabian culture. This has been discussed to death and yet millions of people refuse to understand.

Islam simply asked women and men BOTH to dress modestly. There is not even a mention of the word "Niqab" or "Burka" in the entire Quran. And even if a woman does choose to dress "immodestly", she is not supposed to be answerable to any man, woman or the state. These so-called "scholars" have corrupted the religion and have turned it into some barbaric code of living life.

Nonetheless, if any woman is still adamant about wearing the Niqab, she can move to Saudi Arabia (if they take her in, that is), there is no need of disrupting the peace and norms of the society of any other nation. As they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

 

[Black Zero]

This is no mosque but some new age 'liberal' cult entity. We have had these in other France, England and US. People are free to do as they please but don't claim you are following Islam because you are not.

Agree
Same statement is true for moderate muslims.

 

[Badsha]

"Banning" something is "liberal" now.

 

[KingKhanWC]

To be very honest, I firmly believe that Niqab, Burka's and to some extent the Abaya and complete Hijab is Saudi Arabian culture and not a part of Islam. Niqab/burka is the covering of your face. A veil. It is not allowed in the holiest of mosques, the Harram. S, why shall it be allowed in other mosques?

Of course it's culture.

But if Europeans countries keep harping on they are liberal, civilised, advanced, free and great. Then they shouldnt be banning items of clothings. People in Europe walk around in the winter with hats and scarfs, this is no different. Should they be banned too? If not why not?

 

[Madplayer]

Exactly this. Why should a woman have right to keep her identity concealed and commit any crime or act whatsoever while men have to show their faces? The bitter truth is, in this day and age, or in any frankly, there is no room for your face to be veiled. It just leaves a lot of room for the needless loss of lives. You can call it hypocritical or bigotry but the truth is, tough times call for tough measures.

When terrorism and suicide bombings were rampant and at their zenith in Pakistan, I remember the government informing citizens to remain vary of anyone oddly dressed. This especially included anyone wearing a big jacket in warm weather.

Similarly, the veil and the baggy abaya leaves a lot of apprehension and suspicion being created. And I support it being banned because you have all the more reason since it is NOT even a part of Islam. It is purely and primarily Saudi Arabian culture. This has been discussed to death and yet millions of people refuse to understand.

Islam simply asked women and men BOTH to dress modestly. There is not even a mention of the word "Niqab" or "Burka" in the entire Quran. And even if a woman does choose to dress "immodestly", she is not supposed to be answerable to any man, woman or the state. These so-called "scholars" have corrupted the religion and have turned it into some barbaric code of living life.

Nonetheless, if any woman is still adamant about wearing the Niqab, she can move to Saudi Arabia (if they take her in, that is), there is no need of disrupting the peace and norms of the society of any other nation. As they say, when in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Liberal countries can ban whatever they like but then they should stop calling themselves liberal because when they take away the right of a person to dress or eat the way they want, they cease to be liberal. And perhaps if these liberal countries werent colonizers in the past and perhaps if they would stop bombing muslim countries for geo-political strategic advantages, the muslims wouldnt have to flee their own countries and find safe places in these "liberal" countries.

 

[James]

How is the hijab harming anyone?

Have many crimes have been committed recently by people wearing niqabs?

Does the burka present a threat to people?

It's a tiny minority of women in Western countries who wear these garments. Probably a similar percentage to the people who have wholly tattooed faces and all-over facial piercings.

I guess my question is - if it's not harming anybody - who cares?

Why do people have to be easily identifiable when they are walking about? Who wants to know?

Do we have a "right" to know who we are looking at? - do they have the "right" for us not to know who they are?

Too many complex questions in this life already. When it comes to clothes - which are largely a social construct anyway, because we are the only animal that wears clothes - just let people wear whatever they want.

 

[Gilly]

We are not talking about walking through customs into the territory of another country through are we, we are talking about walking about in your own country of which you are an ordinary citizen.

OK then walk into your local bank wearing a balaclava.

 

[Adil_94]

kind of defeats the purpose of being liberal by banning a garment. Instead they could have rules saying that women have the choice to whether cover their hair in prayer or not and members have the choice whether they want to pray together.

 

[PakLFC]

As I often say the law of the land must come first. There will be plenty of masjids for hijab and niqab wearing ladies as well. Let Muslim people not make a fuss over every issue.

 

[Adil_94]

an LGBT inclusive mosque is no bad idea. its better than a mosque teaching that lgbt people are diseased individuals or even deserve death. but it seems like some would prefer that than extending tolerance n understanding to lgbt individuals.

 

[Hayreddin]

People seem to forget sects like Bektashi and Alevism, which are liberal Islamic sects that have been present for 500+ years. Liberal thought has been present within Islam for centuries; this is nothing new. Mutazila, a medieval sect of Islam that trumped rationalism and neoplatonian philosophy, was the main religious force of the Abbasid Khalifa. This hyper-conservative sensibility seems to be derived from 18th century anxieties about encroaching imperialism. So whether one likes it or not, Islam has had a longer history of being a liberal religion than a conservative one.

 

[Macho Mann]

mosques have been used for political, religious and other agendas, like red mosque, so this is not a new concept, we have had masjid e zarrar during prophet pbuh's time

 

[skylinegtr]

quick note guys popping over from cricket section

A mosque has to be built /owned or land purchased by Muslim(s).

A masalla is rented place of worship and is not a Mosque



Cheers Eid Mubarak to all.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

If a Church is bought and converted into a Mosque when will you wish to call it a mosque ?

It depends on the intentions of owners. If they build it for the purpose of worshiping Allah(swt) then it is a Mosque.

Thank You. Sanity prevailed. Stay blessed.

You too, have a nice day.

I am glad that we agreed on something Alhamdoulillah. Mind you majority won't agree with what you wrote in post number 25 and will put special clauses in your statement to counter people

That's ok as long as the majority remain non-violent. Everyone is not going to agree, not a big deal. Pakistan should organize platforms for different religious/non religious groups so majority can get used to different opinions. Suppressing views of people only makes them more intolerant.

It is highly unlikely in the coming 25 years atleast. In a country where deep state through stooges on tv hurl allegation of blasphemy on PM of country because of his certain words uttered during Diwali celebrations speech. And it is well known that such allegatiins result in killing. So this is highly unlikely.

quick note guys popping over from cricket section

A mosque has to be built /owned or land purchased by Muslim(s).

A masalla is rented place of worship and is not a Mosque



Cheers Eid Mubarak to all.

Here you go.

[MENTION=52376]Saeed[/MENTION] I leave it to you mate. Good Luck.

 

[TQ89]

Not entirely religious or anything. But i don't agree with banning burkas or niqab stuff. By doing this they are already complicating a sensitive issue & my problem with this is that these pointless debate starts like this and ends as bidaah ( which the subcontinent is so full of).

People have complicated Islam so much and it makes it much harder for youngsters to follow in the modern age due to such narrow minded views & intolerance

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

an LGBT inclusive mosque is no bad idea. its better than a mosque teaching that lgbt people are diseased individuals or even deserve death. but it seems like some would prefer that than extending tolerance n understanding to lgbt individuals.

I must admit I didn't know what an LGBT was until I heard you mention the term on here a few times. This sort of reminds me of aliasad's thread where he claimed he had "a friend" who wanted to be an actor. So thanks for bringing me up to date with the up to date jargon for the LGBTs, and whether you have a "friend" who is one is no concern to me. Live and let live I say.

 

[TQ89]

According to Islamic laws, women only require hijab or niqab when praying. It is not mandatory for women to put hijab in mosque otherwise as they already have a segregated area

Of course If i am wrong any brother can correct me.

 

[Yossarian]

Women and men can and should both attend mosques but have seperate areas.

Men and women are not segregated inside Masjid al-Haram. Men and women are not segregated when performing tawaf around the Kaaba or when performing Sa`ee (walking) between As-Safa and Al-Marwah.

So if that is the case inside Islam's holiest mosque, Masjid Al-Haram, then surely it's wrong to segregate men and women inside any other mosque?

 

[Saeed]

Here you go.

[MENTION=52376]Saeed[/MENTION] I leave it to you mate.

What is there to argue? It's his point of view, let him believe that and you believe what you want to. As I already said everyone is not going to agree.

 

[JaDed]

Liberal extremists,less of them lets see where this goes.So assuming they are not forcing anyone to enter the mosque,anyone entering their premise can follow their rules?