Has Pakistan progressed as a nation in the last 70 years?

[MenInG]

Not just economically but in terms of attitudes etc?

 

[King-Misbah]

Pakistanis have gone worse! You can judge a nation by it's leader. For God sake, Pakistan went from Quid to Corruption Sharif :/

There has been a moral decay and Nawaz has to be blamed as he bought dirty politics in the 80s and 90s. He bought in attacking the courts, bribing judges & journalists, using police as personal servants, monopolizing Punjab, restoring to attacking politicians such as Benazir & Imran #PersonalLives etc

 

[munda_khi]

somehow it sounds that before nawaz sharif every thing was great. our country was split into two pieces way before nawaz sharif. personal attack, using govt agencies as personal servants, restoring to attacking politicians were not happening before nawaz sharif?
back to topic pakistan has progressed somewhat neither no progress at all nor a lot of progress.

 

[Pakistanian]

As a nation i think its progressed cause there's a greater sense of nationhood which didnt even exist 70 years ago and that's cause of how long it's been.

 

[King-Misbah]

somehow it sounds that before nawaz sharif every thing was great. our country was split into two pieces way before nawaz sharif. personal attack, using govt agencies as personal servants, restoring to attacking politicians were not happening before nawaz sharif?
back to topic pakistan has progressed somewhat neither no progress at all nor a lot of progress.

My understanding is that politics was not as dirty before Nawaz was introduced. Pakistan splitting into two is a separate issue. Pakistan's moral and ethics have gone a lot worse then ever before.

 

[DRsohail]

attitude has been on the reverse,....

 

[Snak3eye5]

Pakistanis have gone worse! You can judge a nation by it's leader. For God sake, Pakistan went from Quid to Corruption Sharif :/

There has been a moral decay and Nawaz has to be blamed as he bought dirty politics in the 80s and 90s. He bought in attacking the courts, bribing judges & journalists, using police as personal servants, monopolizing Punjab, restoring to attacking politicians such as Benazir & Imran #PersonalLives etc

I challenge the notion that Nawaz is the reason for everything going downhill or for Pakistan not progressing. The mark of of progress is determined by a few factors such as,

Employment rate, Creation of Jobs
GDP
Trade, Manufacturing and Export
Foreign Relations
Globalizations
Woman Empowerment
Education
Tourism
Spending
Space Programs
Technology

How much of the above factors can Nawaz really control ? Is it really top down influenced ? Heck at one point Pakistan was doing so well that everyone talks about how South korea aped the same and is actually way ahead.. So what went wrong ?

I do agree that if we could take a few things back and go back in time, one could wish for Jinnah living longer. He truly saw a vision of state separate from religion. Another factor would have been to not partner with US and jump into the war with Afghanistan which was a blunder and again showed how not having Jinnah and from there on having weak Pakistan leaders who didn't have a clear vision. It all went downhill from there in my opinion...

 

[ManFan]

It requires a 100 years to emerge as a great power. So 30 more to go! I know it may not seem like it but the standard of life at least in villages has improved in the last twenty years.

 

[Pakistanian]

People will always be pessimistic and be nostalgic about a past they may not have been as what they imagine as, i think pakistan is getting better and definitely gonna get more liberal over the nezt few decades. It's definitely in a much better position than the Pakistan of Zias days.

 

[Buffet]

Pretty much all countries have improved in the last 5-6 decades, including Pakistan. Question should be about the rate of improvement.

 

[Napa]

My understanding is that politics was not as dirty before Nawaz was introduced.

When the Army overthrows in a coup and then hangs an elected Prime Minister, I cannot think of anything worse in politics.

 

[www787]

When the Army overthrows in a coup and then hangs an elected Prime Minister, I cannot think of anything worse in politics.

I can. Worse would be electing hardline religious extremist. So far Pakistan hasn’t elected any religious extremist.

 

[Napa]

I can. Worse would be electing hardline religious extremist. So far Pakistan hasn’t elected any religious extremist.

Combining the two I suppose we have Egypt, where a hardline religious extremist was elected and then deposed in a military coup and sentenced to death!

 

[King-Misbah]

When the Army overthrows in a coup and then hangs an elected Prime Minister, I cannot think of anything worse in politics.

Mujeeb was the elected leader; not Bhutto.

 

[saadibaba]

One step forward and two steps back, that has been the story of Pakistan.

We saw progress during Ayub Khan and to a certain extent during Musharraf's era, not just economically but also in people's attitudes, especially among the middle class there was a sense that Pakistan is finally realizing its potential. But because we have been unable to sufficiently build strong independent institutions like the judiciary and are still seem to be plagued with power struggles between the civilian and the military branches of power, our progress has been been inconsistent and short lived. Its follows a vicious cycle of instability preventing the establishment of strong institutions leading to more instability.

It also does help that despite our modest socio-economic footprint on the world, we have been at the forefront of global power struggles and been constantly and often unnecessarily involved with our neighbors in an antagonizing fashion. What will come of our nation which by all means has the potential to be a major regional and international powerhouse but whose progress has been stifled by the fumes of religious, ethnic and sectarian differences. Only time will tell.

 

[Chrish]

Not when you have dude getting sentenced to death over text message.

 

[Napa]

Mujeeb was the elected leader; not Bhutto.

This is your country's history, you should know better. Mujib won the 1970 elections. Bhutto won the 1977 elections and was hanged about 2 years later in 1979.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

When the Army overthrows in a coup and then hangs an elected Prime Minister, I cannot think of anything worse in politics.

Democracy is NOT the holy grail of politics. There is much more to politics than that.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

One step forward and two steps back, that has been the story of Pakistan.

We saw progress during Ayub Khan and to a certain extent during Musharraf's era, not just economically but also in people's attitudes, especially among the middle class there was a sense that Pakistan is finally realizing its potential. But because we have been unable to sufficiently build strong independent institutions like the judiciary and are still seem to be plagued with power struggles between the civilian and the military branches of power, our progress has been been inconsistent and short lived. Its follows a vicious cycle of instability preventing the establishment of strong institutions leading to more instability.

It also does help that despite our modest socio-economic footprint on the world, we have been at the forefront of global power struggles and been constantly and often unnecessarily involved with our neighbors in an antagonizing fashion. What will come of our nation which by all means has the potential to be a major regional and international powerhouse but whose progress has been stifled by the fumes of religious, ethnic and sectarian differences. Only time will tell.

Hmm........I wonder why the best years of our progress and growth as a nation coincided with the rule of 2 army generals.

 

[Syed1]

Democracy is NOT the holy grail of politics. There is much more to politics than that.

Democracy is a very western concept and definitely not the end all be all of everything. China has absolute zero democracy yet it has successfully gone from a rag-tag nation to the elite economic powerhouse of the world successfully managing to lift hundreds of millions of people out of abject poverty and building the largest armed forces and advanced military, airforce and navy in the process. Infrastructure-wise China is head and shoulders above European nations and right behind the States. Desi liberals will have us believe that a nation cannot move even one step forward if it doesn't have western style democracy.

 

[Syed1]

Pakistan as a nation has made plenty of advances some of which are:


1. In 1947 there was absolutely no industry, universities or any infrastructure of note. In 2017, Pakistan has two massive sea ports and a third in final stages of coming online in Gwadar. We have several notable universities and a few are within the top 300 in Asia (massive potential to improve though). We have laid down long stretches of motorways and more are coming through. We have built large dams to store water and generate electricity. The Indus water irrigation system is the most extensive in the world.

2. We are the fourth largest producer of milk and generally amongst the top producer of cotton, wheat, rice and other crops. We have the best mangoes in the world. We have one of the largest cultivated land area in the world and still there is massive improvement that can take place in it.

3. We have one of the fastest growth rate in renewable energy production. There are literally two dozen or more independent wind power projects being undertaken right now just on the Sindh coastal belt. Our hydro-potential is also one of the largest in the world and even though we haven't utilized it to the max we still are a long way from where we were in 1947. We also have the largest solar park in all of Asia. We are currently building atleast 3 or 4 new nuclear power plants for power generation.

4. Pakistan Stock Exchange has been the fastest growing in the world for the last two years

5. We have one of the fastest growth rate of broadband internet and smartphone penetration in the world.

6. Pakistan has managed to assemble the 7th largest armed forces in the world and arguably the best intelligence agency in the world. We have indigenously built a fighter jet (with Chinese assistance ofcourse), but now upto 70% of the jet is being built in Pakistan. There are secret plans in the works for Pakistan to join to independent projects with Turkey and China for collaboration on a fifth gen. We have also built nukes.



We have achieved alot in the last 70 years, but we still have many miles to go.

 

[sshakir411]

It hasn't progressed since the 70s...Things went down hill starting from Zia and only Mush was someone who brought it back on course only to have it ruined by Zardari and now Mian.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Pakistan as a nation has made plenty of advances some of which are:


1. In 1947 there was absolutely no industry, universities or any infrastructure of note. In 2017, Pakistan has two massive sea ports and a third in final stages of coming online in Gwadar. We have several notable universities and a few are within the top 300 in Asia (massive potential to improve though). We have laid down long stretches of motorways and more are coming through. We have built large dams to store water and generate electricity. The Indus water irrigation system is the most extensive in the world.

2. We are the fourth largest producer of milk and generally amongst the top producer of cotton, wheat, rice and other crops. We have the best mangoes in the world. We have one of the largest cultivated land area in the world and still there is massive improvement that can take place in it.

3. We have one of the fastest growth rate in renewable energy production. There are literally two dozen or more independent wind power projects being undertaken right now just on the Sindh coastal belt. Our hydro-potential is also one of the largest in the world and even though we haven't utilized it to the max we still are a long way from where we were in 1947. We also have the largest solar park in all of Asia. We are currently building atleast 3 or 4 new nuclear power plants for power generation.

4. Pakistan Stock Exchange has been the fastest growing in the world for the last two years

5. We have one of the fastest growth rate of broadband internet and smartphone penetration in the world.

6. Pakistan has managed to assemble the 7th largest armed forces in the world and arguably the best intelligence agency in the world. We have indigenously built a fighter jet (with Chinese assistance ofcourse), but now upto 70% of the jet is being built in Pakistan. There are secret plans in the works for Pakistan to join to independent projects with Turkey and China for collaboration on a fifth gen. We have also built nukes.



We have achieved alot in the last 70 years, but we still have many miles to go.

Sorry for being nitpicky but you forgot the fact that we are the ONLY Muslim nation in the world with nuclear weapons. Also we have more nuclear nukes than India atm.

 

[gkb101277867]

Lol can't take you seriously at all when you say that the ISI is the best intelligence agency in the world. It's probably closer to the opposite side of that list [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION]

 

[Syed1]

Lol can't take you seriously at all when you say that the ISI is the best intelligence agency in the world. It's probably closer to the opposite side of that list [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION]

http://www.foxnewspoint.com/top-10-best-intelligence-agencies-in-the-world-2017/


There are many more lists like this one

 

[gkb101277867]

http://www.foxnewspoint.com/top-10-best-intelligence-agencies-in-the-world-2017/


There are many more lists like this one

Really fox news? That just further devalues your point. No website etc can hide the realities. ISI is unreliable and has been rumoured to have been regularly infiltrated by terrorists. Pakistan has been ravaged the last 20 years by terrorism. How about when America illegally entered Pakistan, carried out a whole mission and left before Pakistan even found out what had happened (although that was probably more the fault of the army but still). Many countries have refused to share intel with Pakistan as when they do..somehow it gets into the wrong hands!!!

 

[Syed1]

Really fox news? That just further devalues your point. No website etc can hide the realities. ISI is unreliable and has been rumoured to have been regularly infiltrated by terrorists. Pakistan has been ravaged the last 20 years by terrorism. How about when America illegally entered Pakistan, carried out a whole mission and left before Pakistan even found out what had happened (although that was probably more the fault of the army but still). Many countries have refused to share intel with Pakistan as when they do..somehow it gets into the wrong hands!!!

Ok you can believe whatever you like. These lists always rank ISI as one of the best agencies in the world. They are not being paid by ISI to do so.


I don't have time to argue the failures of the CIA which have been numerous to say the least

 

[cricketjoshila]

I can. Worse would be electing hardline religious extremist. So far Pakistan hasn’t elected any religious extremist.

Pakistan itself is based on religion.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Mujeeb was the elected leader; not Bhutto.

That is the greatest travesty in history of Pakistan and the subcontinent.What happened in 1970.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Democracy is a very western concept and definitely not the end all be all of everything. China has absolute zero democracy yet it has successfully gone from a rag-tag nation to the elite economic powerhouse of the world successfully managing to lift hundreds of millions of people out of abject poverty and building the largest armed forces and advanced military, airforce and navy in the process. Infrastructure-wise China is head and shoulders above European nations and right behind the States. Desi liberals will have us believe that a nation cannot move even one step forward if it doesn't have western style democracy.

You live where you live and enjoy what you enjoy because of democracy.Its so easy to slate democracy and big up dictatorship while enjoying the comforts of a liberal democracy.

 

[Black Zero]

Pakistan is improving but lagging wrt to others.

 

[Syed1]

You live where you live and enjoy what you enjoy because of democracy.Its so easy to slate democracy and big up dictatorship while enjoying the comforts of a liberal democracy.

This is because people here have education and ability to make an informed decision. The voter base threw out Harper and his Conservative party because of his anti-immigrant policies and other protectionist agendas. Meanwhile in Pakistan known traitors such as Nawaz and Zardari are elected again and again on the basis of biradri


Freaking Lahore elected the wife of convicted Nawaz Sharif in the recently held by-polls. The lady is in London and didn't even campaign for the seat. You tell me can true democracy flourish if people have this mentality?

 

[Shutdown Corner]

View attachment 76929

Pakistan is improving but lagging wrt to others.

Bangladesh HDI plateuing since 2010...

 

[cricketjoshila]

This is because people here have education and ability to make an informed decision. The voter base threw out Harper and his Conservative party because of his anti-immigrant policies and other protectionist agendas. Meanwhile in Pakistan known traitors such as Nawaz and Zardari are elected again and again on the basis of biradri


Freaking Lahore elected the wife of convicted Nawaz Sharif in the recently held by-polls. The lady is in London and didn't even campaign for the seat. You tell me can true democracy flourish if people have this mentality?

Give them the chance.Pakistan hasnt even seen democracy properly.No pakistani PM has completed his term.One was hanged.One guy won majority but wasnot allowed to become PM.Tell me with the feudal system when people dont own their land house or food, do they own their freedom to vote?

The military still controls wide range of affairs.

It takes decades of continous democracy and reforms before a democracy becomes a fully functional one.Please read through the history of various democraciesm

 

[Shutdown Corner]

Give them the chance.Pakistan hasnt even seen democracy properly.No pakistani PM has completed his term.One was hanged.One guy won majority but wasnot allowed to become PM.Tell me with the feudal system when people dont own their land house or food, do they own their freedom to vote?

The military still controls wide range of affairs.

It takes decades of continous democracy and reforms before a democracy becomes a fully functional one.Please read through the history of various democraciesm

Democracies have their pitfulls as well. If I recall correctly, Hitler came to power democratically by playing on the fear and resentment of the German populace. Trump was elected because the majority of people in the MOST developed nation on Earth are too ignorant and/or bigoted to realise the dangers of climate change, isolationalism, and revisionism are greater than that posed by illegal immigrants and muscular black men who refuse to stand for the national anthem during football games.

If I don't have a business degree, I wouldn't be trusted to make sound decisions on how to manage a company. So how can an illiterate chai-wala in Lahore, Delhi, or Dhaka be trusted to make decisions that would impact the social, economic, political, and military futures of hundreds of millions of people?

The best idea would be an oligarchy of highly intelligent and wise leaders, but we all know that absolute power would eventually corrupt them as well.

No ideal answers.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Democracies have their pitfulls as well. If I recall correctly, Hitler came to power democratically by playing on the fear and resentment of the German populace. Trump was elected because the majority of people in the MOST developed nation on Earth are too ignorant and/or bigoted to realise the dangers of climate change, isolationalism, and revisionism are greater than that posed by illegal immigrants and muscular black men who refuse to stand for the national anthem during football games.

If I don't have a business degree, I wouldn't be trusted to make sound decisions on how to manage a company. So how can an illiterate chai-wala in Lahore, Delhi, or Dhaka be trusted to make decisions that would impact the social, economic, political, and military futures of hundreds of millions of people?

The best idea would be an oligarchy of highly intelligent and wise leaders, but we all know that absolute power would eventually corrupt them as well.

No ideal answers.

Hitler came to power by elections and then he abolished it.The Germans didnlt fight to retake it.

Trump is in power because the majority in America want him.You may think immigrants and falling nationalism isnt the problem for them it is.You are free to vote for your choice they for theirs.

This elitist thinking that the illiterate chai wala cannot make a choice is wrong.He is as much a part of the country and will be as much affected by the rulers as you, or perhaps more.He has as much right to choose his leader as do you.Your priviledges dont take away his rights.

The system where the people decide who will rule and the ruler is answerable to his people is the most competent system out of the ones we have.Its not flawless but its the most competent.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Give them the chance.Pakistan hasnt even seen democracy properly.No pakistani PM has completed his term.One was hanged.One guy won majority but wasnot allowed to become PM.Tell me with the feudal system when people dont own their land house or food, do they own their freedom to vote?

The military still controls wide range of affairs.

It takes decades of continous democracy and reforms before a democracy becomes a fully functional one.Please read through the history of various democraciesm

Democracy doesn’t work everywhere
Nazi Germany is a good example
Iraq is another good one

More tax
Less corruption
More agriculture

Pakistan need another ZAB

 

[blue_champion]

Pakistan as a nation has made plenty of advances some of which are:





4. Pakistan Stock Exchange has been the fastest growing in the world for the last two years




We have achieved alot in the last 70 years, but we still have many miles to go.

Not trying to be a smart *** but can you name me a few Pakistani corporations that are listed on the NYSE,NASDAQ or have a strong presence in the world.

Again not being a smartass...genuinely curious.

 

[captain.hansolo]

Pakistan has had multiple peaceful transfers of power from one democratically elected government to another. In the last 10 odd years, the head of the military has been the civilian leader of state.

Pakistan has experienced robust, though unsteady economic growth.

Pakistan has a much higher literacy rate than ever before in the past, greater access to healthcare, and longer life expectancy.

If anything, Pakistan has made significant progress given the baggage it has been straddled with - first a proxy for a west vs. soviet union war, then a staging ground for the same war revisited, and now a scapegoat for evils committed by the wahabis.

 

[captain.hansolo]

Not trying to be a smart *** but can you name me a few Pakistani corporations that are listed on the NYSE,NASDAQ or have a strong presence in the world.

Again not being a smartass...genuinely curious.

because they are not listed on the NYSE or the NASDAQ does not mean anything - it simply means that they are not globally traded.

 

[captain.hansolo]

Democracy doesn’t work everywhere
Nazi Germany is a good example
Iraq is another good one

More tax
Less corruption
More agriculture

Pakistan need another ZAB

Nazis were not a democratically elected majority.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Democracy doesn’t work everywhere
Nazi Germany is a good example
Iraq is another good one

More tax
Less corruption
More agriculture

Pakistan need another ZAB

Nazis abolished democracy and Saddam ran rigged elections.

ZAB? The guy who lost elections and then wouldnot let the guy who won become PM?

 

[msb314]

Hitler came to power by elections and then he abolished it.The Germans didnlt fight to retake it.

Trump is in power because the majority in America want him.You may think immigrants and falling nationalism isnt the problem for them it is.You are free to vote for your choice they for theirs.

This elitist thinking that the illiterate chai wala cannot make a choice is wrong.He is as much a part of the country and will be as much affected by the rulers as you, or perhaps more.He has as much right to choose his leader as do you.Your priviledges dont take away his rights.

The system where the people decide who will rule and the ruler is answerable to his people is the most competent system out of the ones we have.Its not flawless but its the most competent.

Does the chai walla have an understanding of economic and political policies that will best benefit the ENTIRE country (and not just raise prices for his/her chai)? Probably not

In fact, who am I kidding, even I do know which government and which policies and actions will bring the best long term benefit for my country. My knowledge of government and economics is limited in that sense.

That is the biggest problem with democracy - it assumes everyone will make a educated rational decision for the benefit of the masses when voting.... That is hardly the case.

 

[msb314]

This is because people here have education and ability to make an informed decision. The voter base threw out Harper and his Conservative party because of his anti-immigrant policies and other protectionist agendas. Meanwhile in Pakistan known traitors such as Nawaz and Zardari are elected again and again on the basis of biradri


Freaking Lahore elected the wife of convicted Nawaz Sharif in the recently held by-polls. The lady is in London and didn't even campaign for the seat. You tell me can true democracy flourish if people have this mentality?

100% agree with [MENTION=138254]Syed1[/MENTION] here.

I would go as far to say even the educated folks do not always understand the complex consequences and links between one action and an another when bills are passed, Executive Ordders are made or a law is approved by the Congress.

How can I vote for a leader when I don't even fully understand the long implications of his/her policies?

 

[Varun]

This thread is a classic case of people getting suckered into the present when they're in fact asked to see the bigger picture. It's similar to the mentality you see in the cricket forum where folks are quick to prop up Kohli as the greatest ODI batsman ever, forgetting Sachin or Viv and their exploits.

Nawaz Sharif and Asif Zardari are just two individuals from the last few years - whereas 70 years is a long time span that has seen plenty of leaders - both civilian and military, and you can argue that some or more of them have been far more beneficial/damaging than these two.

 

[Pakistanian]

Democracy doesn't work for every country, even my white friends here say the same.

 

[Mrhandsome]

Democracy is NOT the holy grail of politics. There is much more to politics than that.

How true .

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

This elitist thinking that the illiterate chai wala cannot make a choice is wrong. He is as much a part of the country and will be as much affected by the rulers as you, or perhaps more.He has as much right to choose his leader as do you.Your priviledges dont take away his rights.

The system where the people decide who will rule and the ruler is answerable to his people is the most competent system out of the ones we have.Its not flawless but its the most competent.

Its about the right choice FOR THE NATION.

These basic democratic principles sound awesome in well-developed and fully civilised communities. Whenever a sizeable chunk of population doesn't have all the basic necessities of life ( i.e. food, water, proper shelter, clothing, electricity, gas etc etc) then such democratic principles go straight into the bin. I'm not saying that the chaiwala shouldn't have the right to vote; I'm saying that he doesn't know how to use his right in the best way possible FOR THE NATION but tbh when he doesn't have the basic necessities of life then such matters are kept at the bottom of the priority list. That and illiteracy are the main reasons why we'll keep electing such opportunistic, corrupt and morally depleted politicians.

I always say this to anyone who talks to me about democracy:

The majority of the population should have two things:
1) Basic privileges of life
2) Education

Then we can talk whether we deserve democracy or not.

 

[Markhor]

Pakistanis have gone worse! You can judge a nation by it's leader. For God sake, Pakistan went from Quid to Corruption Sharif :/

There has been a moral decay and Nawaz has to be blamed as he bought dirty politics in the 80s and 90s. He bought in attacking the courts, bribing judges & journalists, using police as personal servants, monopolizing Punjab, restoring to attacking politicians such as Benazir & Imran #PersonalLives etc

Corruption and political dirty tricks didn't start and end with Nawaz Sharif.

Go read what Ayub Khan did to Fatima Jinnah in the 1965 election, Bhutto's political thuggery in the 1970s, Zia's sham trial and execution of Bhutto in 79 and his fostering of sectarian group in the 80s.

Nawaz Sharif himself was Zia's blue eyed boy.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Does the chai walla have an understanding of economic and political policies that will best benefit the ENTIRE country (and not just raise prices for his/her chai)? Probably not

In fact, who am I kidding, even I do know which government and which policies and actions will bring the best long term benefit for my country. My knowledge of government and economics is limited in that sense.

That is the biggest problem with democracy - it assumes everyone will make a educated rational decision for the benefit of the masses when voting.... That is hardly the case.

Does this take away the right of the chaiwala or the ordinary labourer or the likes of them from deciding who is their leader.Every human has the right to decide who should rule him and how he should be ruled.

I dont know where you live, but suppose you move to another country and there the rule is that immigrant citizens only get half their vote counted or may be have no vote, will that be OK?

You do realise that in a system where the lowest class has no power will mean no one will be bothered about them.

I can understand eligibility cricteria for the candidate for leadership, regarding his education,efficiency,integrity etc, but a cricteria for poor people not getting to vote is discriminatory, elitist, abusive, medieval and exploitative.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Its about the right choice FOR THE NATION.

These basic democratic principles sound awesome in well-developed and fully civilised communities. Whenever a sizeable chunk of population doesn't have all the basic necessities of life ( i.e. food, water, proper shelter, clothing, electricity, gas etc etc) then such democratic principles go straight into the bin. I'm not saying that the chaiwala shouldn't have the right to vote; I'm saying that he doesn't know how to use his right in the best way possible FOR THE NATION but tbh when he doesn't have the basic necessities of life then such matters are kept at the bottom of the priority list. That and illiteracy are the main reasons why we'll keep electing such opportunistic, corrupt and morally depleted politicians.

I always say this to anyone who talks to me about democracy:

The majority of the population should have two things:
1) Basic privileges of life
2) Education

Then we can talk whether we deserve democracy or not.

So what is the choice for Pakistan?

In a functioning and flourishing democracy the person in power has to work for the people else he gets voted out the next time.Thats how it works.

In Pakistan the PM may be gone even if he doesnt lose an election.Infact no PM ever have completed his term.They have been hanged, removed in a coup etc etc. The Army wields huge influence over what happens. On top of that there has been a grand total of 1 transition of a elected PM to another.So saying democracy wont work is wrong. It hasnt even been given a chance.

In democracy the system throws up leaders, but for that the system has to work. Nawaz was elected PM in 90s and then in 2013 almost 15 years later. Benazir Bhutto was PM in 1996 and never became PM again.

Tommorow there may be another military coup and IK may never become PM.

Then you blame the people for voting in the same leaders, when there is no alternative being created as the system is being shut down.

No one will bother providing anything to the lowest class if they dont have a say in who comes to power.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

So what is the choice for Pakistan?

In a functioning and flourishing democracy the person in power has to work for the people else he gets voted out the next time.Thats how it works.

In Pakistan the PM may be gone even if he doesnt lose an election.Infact no PM ever have completed his term.They have been hanged, removed in a coup etc etc. The Army wields huge influence over what happens. On top of that there has been a grand total of 1 transition of a elected PM to another.So saying democracy wont work is wrong. It hasnt even been given a chance.

In democracy the system throws up leaders, but for that the system has to work. Nawaz was elected PM in 90s and then in 2013 almost 15 years later. Benazir Bhutto was PM in 1996 and never became PM again.

Tommorow there may be another military coup and IK may never become PM.

Then you blame the people for voting in the same leaders, when there is no alternative being created as the system is being shut down.

No one will bother providing anything to the lowest class if they dont have a say in who comes to power.

If you're saying that the elected politicians haven't got a chance to prove themselves throughout these 70 years then you, my friend, have no idea about Pakistan's political history.

 

[cricketjoshila]

If you're saying that the elected politicians haven't got a chance to prove themselves throughout these 70 years then you, my friend, have no idea about Pakistan's political history.

If no Pakistani PM has ever completed his term, then i guess its pretty evident they havent got the oppurtunity.

So please tell me what is your alternative?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

If no Pakistani PM has ever completed his term, then i guess its pretty evident they havent got the oppurtunity.

So please tell me what is your alternative?

Simple.

1) Raise the criteria for being called a literate person (atm you're considered literate if you're able to write your name and read one line in newspaper)
2) Only literate and 23+ years old people to vote.

Either that or elect Imran Khan.

 

[cricketjoshila]

Simple.

1) Raise the criteria for being called a literate person (atm you're considered literate if you're able to write your name and read one line in newspaper)
2) Only literate and 23+ years old people to vote.

Either that or elect Imran Khan.

Thats democracy.

 

[Syed1]

This thread is a classic case of people getting suckered into the present when they're in fact asked to see the bigger picture. It's similar to the mentality you see in the cricket forum where folks are quick to prop up Kohli as the greatest ODI batsman ever, forgetting Sachin or Viv and their exploits.

Nawaz Sharif and Asif Zardari are just two individuals from the last few years - whereas 70 years is a long time span that has seen plenty of leaders - both civilian and military, and you can argue that some or more of them have been far more beneficial/damaging than these two.

You are right that there is recency bias. However, during Mush era all these desi liberals kept hyping how democracy is the solution to all problems. Guess what we have had 10 years of democracy and people look back to Mush's era with fondness.

I'd take 50 years of Mush's rule over 5 years of Nawaz/Zardari rule that's how bad our politicians are.

 

[Syed1]

Another example of Mush's brilliance and politicians kambhakti:


Mush fired the CJ Iftikhar who was corrupt and had cancelled the privatization of the Steel Mills

All of these politicians pounced on that opportunity and successfully managed to depose Mush


10 years down the road Steel Mills isn't even worth the land it is built on, accrues billions of ruppees of loss every year (and rising plus accumulating) and there is absolutely no one who is willing to buy it.


It was also revealed that CJ Iftikhar was as corrupt as his political masters and his own son had amassed massive wealth and properties abroad.



But but but jamhoriat

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Thats democracy.

It would be a miracle if Imran Khan is elected PM in the upcoming elections and I would be proud of our democracy that day.

 

[Varun]

I'd take 50 years of Mush's rule over 5 years of Nawaz/Zardari rule that's how bad our politicians are.

Trouble is the proof of the pudding lies in the eating. Mush could have ruled for several decades if he chose to - barely lasted one before burning out like most of his military counterparts.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Primary factors which are the root cause of our decline:
- Corrupt politicians
- Maulvi Mafia (People who make money off Islam)
- Participation in War on Terror: Pak should stay away from Afghanistan etc. ASAP

Primary factors holding our country together:
- Hardworking people who are busting their backs all around world and sending money to Pakistan
- Pak Army/ISI/Security forces: Hopefully no one will invade Pakistan and we won't ever have to fight a war.

My elder brother wants to invest is hard earned money in Pak and is a firm believer in that Pak is improving drastically.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So what is the choice for Pakistan?

In a functioning and flourishing democracy the person in power has to work for the people else he gets voted out the next time.Thats how it works.

In Pakistan the PM may be gone even if he doesnt lose an election.Infact no PM ever have completed his term.They have been hanged, removed in a coup etc etc. The Army wields huge influence over what happens. On top of that there has been a grand total of 1 transition of a elected PM to another.So saying democracy wont work is wrong. It hasnt even been given a chance.

In democracy the system throws up leaders, but for that the system has to work. Nawaz was elected PM in 90s and then in 2013 almost 15 years later. Benazir Bhutto was PM in 1996 and never became PM again.

Tommorow there may be another military coup and IK may never become PM.

Then you blame the people for voting in the same leaders, when there is no alternative being created as the system is being shut down.

No one will bother providing anything to the lowest class if they dont have a say in who comes to power.

On this I have to say I agree with joshila bhai. If you believe in democracy, you can only judge it once it has had a chance to mature over a few elections. Military rule might well have advantages, but once you go down that direction, then there's every chance that the fate of the people of that country is no longer in their own hands.

 

[Pakistanian]

If no Pakistani PM has ever completed his term, then i guess its pretty evident they havent got the oppurtunity.

So please tell me what is your alternative?

You don't have to complete a term in a parliamentary democracy lol, it's really common in even European countries for the incumbent to lose a vote confidence and step down. Just take a look at Australia and Japan they've had so many Prime Ministers in the last decade alone, they hardly have any that have completed their term and neither do they have to, cause in a parliamentary democracy that isn't a requirement. In fact losing a vote of confidence or being removed from office by the court is also part of the Democratic system. A lot of fobs have this misnomer that only the executive office represents democracy when in reality it's one of the 3 branches.

 

[cricketjoshila]

You don't have to complete a term in a parliamentary democracy lol, it's really common in even European countries for the incumbent to lose a vote confidence and step down. Just take a look at Australia and Japan they've had so many Prime Ministers in the last decade alone, they hardly have any that have completed their term and neither do they have to, cause in a parliamentary democracy that isn't a requirement. In fact losing a vote of confidence or being removed from office by the court is also part of the Democratic system. A lot of fobs have this misnomer that only the executive office represents democracy when in reality it's one of the 3 branches.

Sir, In Europe when a person loses vote of confidence he steps down and another democratically elected person takes his place.They are not removed by Army and dictatorship doesnot succeed them.

 

[Pakistanian]

And how has the an army dictatorship replace Sharif or Gilani? Both of them were succeeded by members of their own parties lol, you don't even know what you're talking about. Don't try to play smarter than you think you are .

 

[cricketjoshila]

And how has the an army dictatorship replace Sharif or Gilani? Both of them were succeeded by members of their own parties lol, you don't even know what you're talking about. Don't try to play smarter than you think you are .

And who replaced ZAB? Who deposed Sharif in 1999?How did Ayub and Yahya Khan come to power?


How many years did Sharif rule?How many years did Gilani rule?Foolish of you to limiting the democracy in Pakistani to last 8-9 years.

 

[Pakistanian]

And who replaced ZAB? Who deposed Sharif in 1999?How did Ayub and Yahya Khan come to power?


How many years did Sharif rule?How many years did Gilani rule?Foolish of you to limiting the democracy in Pakistani to last 8-9 years.

We're talking about the present, Sharif got replaced by Abassi and Gilani was replaced by Pervez Ashraf. You need to learn how to understand context.

 

[Surf]

What has India's democracy done for them.

Buildings are collapsing left and right from Mumbai, Pune, Delhi, to Kollcata. Children are dying due to lack of oxygen in hospitals. Why no justice done for the train stampede. When women are raped left and right and all the government does is blame the victim. Yes rapes happen in every country but nowhere is it so rampantly accepted.

Just a few day ago a girl jumped from the train because a alleged rapist had entered a women only compartment advanced towards her so she jumped now she is severely disabled. See Here:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/mumba...compartment/story-bwcgNbQdkgzdMnrI5AW7BP.html

Where the government is building temple I repeat Government not the community : Ram temple
I see no Secular democracy building a temple favoring one set of people over others. Is this Democracy where the government is buliding a temple on the exact site of Babri Masjid and thus promoting communal tensions. See Here:

https://www.outlookindia.com/websit...-says-up-health-minister-siddharth-nat/302363

Where 100s of farmers are committing suicide who can't pay loans and government is encroaching their land without any compensation.

15 of 20 Most polluted cities are in India.

Demonetization has caused a major headache for India growth is down massively and plenty of black money been converted to white in the form of gold. Only the poor and the weak have suffered just now people are realizing what the Centre's motive was.

 

[Napa]

Pakistan as a nation has made plenty of advances some of which are:


1. In 1947 there was absolutely no industry, universities or any infrastructure of note. In 2017, Pakistan has two massive sea ports and a third in final stages of coming online in Gwadar. We have several notable universities and a few are within the top 300 in Asia (massive potential to improve though). We have laid down long stretches of motorways and more are coming through. We have built large dams to store water and generate electricity. The Indus water irrigation system is the most extensive in the world.

2. We are the fourth largest producer of milk and generally amongst the top producer of cotton, wheat, rice and other crops. We have the best mangoes in the world. We have one of the largest cultivated land area in the world and still there is massive improvement that can take place in it.

3. We have one of the fastest growth rate in renewable energy production. There are literally two dozen or more independent wind power projects being undertaken right now just on the Sindh coastal belt. Our hydro-potential is also one of the largest in the world and even though we haven't utilized it to the max we still are a long way from where we were in 1947. We also have the largest solar park in all of Asia. We are currently building atleast 3 or 4 new nuclear power plants for power generation.

4. Pakistan Stock Exchange has been the fastest growing in the world for the last two years

5. We have one of the fastest growth rate of broadband internet and smartphone penetration in the world.

6. Pakistan has managed to assemble the 7th largest armed forces in the world and arguably the best intelligence agency in the world. We have indigenously built a fighter jet (with Chinese assistance ofcourse), but now upto 70% of the jet is being built in Pakistan. There are secret plans in the works for Pakistan to join to independent projects with Turkey and China for collaboration on a fifth gen. We have also built nukes.



We have achieved alot in the last 70 years, but we still have many miles to go.

Rather telling that in the 2nd decade of the 21st century, posters are writing about the production of milk and mangoes as signs of progress.

PS. Growth of the Stock Market (Index) is not the important thing, it is the total market capitalization of the stocks listed.

 

[cricketjoshila]

We're talking about the present, Sharif got replaced by Abassi and Gilani was replaced by Pervez Ashraf. You need to learn how to understand context.

Do you think that a governing system matures in 1-2 elections?

 

[A-1]

We did but then NS and AZ happened.

They kinda took us back to stone age tbh.

 

[Syed1]

Rather telling that in the 2nd decade of the 21st century, posters are writing about the production of milk and mangoes as signs of progress.

PS. Growth of the Stock Market (Index) is not the important thing, it is the total market capitalization of the stocks listed.

Maybe you should focus on agriculture too, majority of India lives in rural areas and every year thousands of farmers commit suicide.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

We did but then NS and AZ happened.

They kinda took us back to stone age tbh.

They represent their constituents at the end of the day. That is the point of democracy, stone age or not.

 

[chacha kashmiri]

Nazis abolished democracy and Saddam ran rigged elections.

ZAB? The guy who lost elections and then wouldnot let the guy who won become PM?

ZAB set off a farmer working class revolution in Pakistan
The only one like it in 70 years

And Nazis were the majority in the 30s after the Great Depression
And liberate Iraq under democracy has not set the world on fire yet

Democracy has recently put in power two of the youngest pms ever one of who is Austrian and a naZi sympathise and a czech billionaire suger daddy has won too

Japanese and Germans have stuck with the same leader for four terms now

 

[Napa]

Maybe you should focus on agriculture too, majority of India lives in rural areas and every year thousands of farmers commit suicide.

While your concern for the Indian farmer is touching, no thanks!

You can keep your milk and mangoes, while we continue developing our lunar lander, our pharma and software firms and CEOs of two of the world's 3 biggest firms.

Btw, you forgot to mention soccer balls.

 

[Syed1]

While your concern for the Indian farmer is touching, no thanks!

You can keep your milk and mangoes, while we continue developing our lunar lander, our pharma and software firms and CEOs of two of the world's 3 biggest firms.

Btw, you forgot to mention soccer balls.

I'm sure the millions who go hungry everyday in India or the thousands of farmers committing suicide can rest in peace that India is developing a lunar lander and 2 CEOs are of Indian origin who had to run away from India get further education abroad and then finally rose through the ranks to become CEOs. Would have remained copy-paste software developers had they stuck around in India.

 

[Napa]

Does this take away the right of the chaiwala or the ordinary labourer or the likes of them from deciding who is their leader.Every human has the right to decide who should rule him and how he should be ruled.

I'd take 50 years of Mush's rule over 5 years of Nawaz/Zardari rule that's how bad our politicians are.

What has India's democracy done for them.

They represent their constituents at the end of the day. That is the point of democracy, stone age or not.

ZAB set off a farmer working class revolution in Pakistan
The only one like it in 70 years

While this back and forth on the merits of democracy is interesting, posters will do well to consider a salient economic fact.

The part of India which resembles Pakistan the most in terms of resources and people are the states of Punjab, Haryana, Delhi, Chandigarh and Himachal Pradesh. The per capita GDP for these states is a staggering 100%+ more than Pakistan's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita

 

[Syed1]

While this back and forth on the merits of democracy is interesting, posters will do well to consider a salient economic fact.

The part of India which resembles Pakistan the most in terms of resources and people are the states of Punjab, Haryana, Delhi, Chandigarh and Himachal Pradesh. The per capita GDP for these states is a staggering 100%+ more than Pakistan's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita

So nice of you to compare per capita GDP of select cities with the per capita GDP of entire Pakistan.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

While this back and forth on the merits of democracy is interesting, posters will do well to consider a salient economic fact.

The part of India which resembles Pakistan the most in terms of resources and people are the states of Punjab, Haryana, Delhi, Chandigarh and Himachal Pradesh. The per capita GDP for these states is a staggering 100%+ more than Pakistan's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_union_territories_by_GDP_per_capita

I'm assuming you are making the comparison to make a point. What is your conclusion as to the reason for this discrepancy?

 

[Napa]

So nice of you to compare per capita GDP of select cities with the per capita GDP of entire Pakistan.

Haryana, Himachal and Punjab are states. Their average ($3,300, $2,800 and $2,400) is still about 80% higher than Pakistan's ($1,550) per cap.

 

[Napa]

I'm assuming you are making the comparison to make a point. What is your conclusion as to the reason for this discrepancy?

The conclusion is that democracy leads the leaders to be more sensitive to the needs of the population. Over time it means that leaders become more open to the idea of allowing private enterprise to succeed and get the government out of the economy. The reason for Modi's success was that the voters were mainly voting for the economy, not for religion.

There has been a lot of criticism of Pakistani politicians. But Pakistan really hasn't had a long stretch of democracy. Political leaders have been created by the Army, and once in power have to constantly look over their shoulder at what the Army may be planning for them. The enormous power which the Army has internally means they dominate the economy, running bakeries, construction firms etc. Let me assure you that this is not the way to succeed economically. It has never happened in history that the Army has run the economy and run it well. That is why you see the difference between India and Pakistan.

Even India took over 40 years of democracy to get the government out of the economy. Liberalization started only in the early 1990s and lot of credit to Narshima Rao. Democracy takes time.