Has the hesitance to try proper spinners and lack of use of spin cost us dearly in last two years?

[Titan24]

Inzamam and Mickey combo was appointed almost 3 years ago and we have tried just 5 spinners across formats since then:

Yasir Shah
Bilal Asif
Shadab Khan
Imad Wasim
Mohammad Nawaz

3 of them were all rounders.

Against Srl in UAE where they were playing 3 spinners, we entered the ground with 3 fast bowlers and one spinner and repeated the same mistake in both the tests and result was 0-2 in favour of Srl.

In Asia Cup which was in UAE we just went with Shadab and Nawaz in the squad knowing that in UAE spin plays an important role and there should be an extra specialist spinner in the team in case one of them doesnt perform. In the end what was feared happened both the selected spinners didnt perform as expected and we had not other option.

Against tests in Aus team management tried to correct their mistake by selecting another spinner which looked like an unwilling or not the most thoughtful move as just for the sake of getting an off spinner they selected someone who was 33 years old and had an avg of around 32-33 before that series in FC. Countless number of spinners with much better bowling averages and recent performances were ignored, Zafar Gohar, Asghar, Kashif Bhatti etc just to give few examples only because they weren't off spinners.

This decision costed us 1 drawn game and we won the series 1-0, repeating the same mistake again against NZ where a decent spinner to support Yasir could have made a big difference in the result of 1-2 in favor of NZ.

I wont go into much critique of SA tests, however in ODI series where Ind went with two specialist spinners in Yadav and Chahal knowing that SA struggles against decent spin and they won the series we went with Imad and Shadab. We did decently in the series, while Imad is a pretty decent all rounder but against teams like SA, Eng, Aus and NZ where spin can be used as wicket taking option or wicket assists spin he isnt that much of a strike force to be the 5th option and a 2nd spinner.

For ODIs against Aus in UAE where they played two specialist spinners in Lyon and Zampa supported by Maxwell, we went with Imad and combo further deteriorated with the entrance of Yasir who averages around 34 even in List A cricket and was selected just because he was a wrist spinner.

Never understood the point of selecting much inferior spinners over deserving ones for a particular format just because they add artificial variety.

I think team management with its lack of knowledge of spin bowling (No spin bowling coach as well) and how to use it effectively as attacking option against certain teams and under certain conditions has really costed us in last 2-3 years.

 

[Sher Khan]

It’s a real issue for us. Especially, not having a genuine offspinner. As we see teams around the world have ashwin, lyon, dananjaya, mehedi Hasan, moeen Ali And we have no one.

We really need to find a specialist offspinner and it’s time to move on from 34 year old bills Asif. The management should invest in Waleed Ahmed he looks very sharp.

 

[Gharib Aadmi]

At least a few Test matches. Probably a decent number of ODI's in the UAE.

 

[Savak]

Mickey Arthur has been utterly clueless and frankly speaking he looks out of ideas. Time for the PCB to look in another direction after the WC.

 

[amvbfm]

One of their gravest errors in my opinion. It will be rectified after the WC but will certainly impact our campaign, more so now that Shadab might not play. Even if he had been playing, the absence of a specialist spinner (one whose job is to take wickets unlike the holding job performed by the likes of Imad or Nawaz) would have remained a problem. What makes this error even more glaring, and raises serious questions about the think tank's ability to spot talent is how they always turn back to Yasir or Bilal Asif in such situations when there are a number of promising youngsters who could have been tested and one of them could very well have been on the plane to UK. Alas, it now appears that in a WC where teams are anticipating the conditions to be conducive to spin bowling at some point, we do not have a specialist spinner.

 

[MenInG]

Excellent thread.

But then we need to put some blame on the pipeline providers too - why are we not picking/recommending good spinners to Pakistan sides?

 

[Rana]

Shadab Khan’s early purple patch has faded. Pakistan are better off playing Umer Khan at number XI and getting 10 overs where he contains and takes a couple of wickets

 

[Markhor]

Definitely cost us the Asia Cup. Would chalk up the SRL and NZL defeats to our terrible handling of the pressure of a run chase though.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Using allrounders as spinners in subcontinent and using specialist spinner outside Asia has been a trademark of Inzi
He used to play Afridi and Malik in our home games and would pick Kaneria and Arshad Khan/Abdur Rehman for matches in South Africa.

I remember our bowling unit in 2005-06 used to be Sami/Rao Iftikhar, Gul/Asif, Rana Naved, Abdul Razzaq, Afridi and Malik.
4 seamers in subcontinent and Afridi who hadn't yet reached his peak as a bowler then.

 

[Titan24]

Excellent thread.

But then we need to put some blame on the pipeline providers too - why are we not picking/recommending good spinners to Pakistan sides?

Thanks.

Yes definitely, they are to be blamed as well. Sad thing is even in PSL young spinners like Usama Mir, Mohammad Asghar and Zafar gohar either warm the bench or rarely get a game. While Raza Hassan had the best economy in the last domestic T20 competition he played was not even considered for PSL this season.

 

[Titan24]

Using allrounders as spinners in subcontinent and using specialist spinner outside Asia has been a trademark of Inzi
He used to play Afridi and Malik in our home games and would pick Kaneria and Arshad Khan/Abdur Rehman for matches in South Africa.

I remember our bowling unit in 2005-06 used to be Sami/Rao Iftikhar, Gul/Asif, Rana Naved, Abdul Razzaq, Afridi and Malik.
4 seamers in subcontinent and Afridi who hadn't yet reached his peak as a bowler then.

Yes and that was the time after Saqlain and before Ajmal that we didnt play play a proper spinner in LOIs for almost all that duration.

 

[Titan24]

It’s a real issue for us. Especially, not having a genuine offspinner. As we see teams around the world have ashwin, lyon, dananjaya, mehedi Hasan, moeen Ali And we have no one.

We really need to find a specialist offspinner and it’s time to move on from 34 year old bills Asif. The management should invest in Waleed Ahmed he looks very sharp.

I agree that its good to have a decent off spinner but if a left arm spinner is better than an off spinner or leg spinner currently then he should be selected.

 

[Titan24]

Definitely cost us the Asia Cup. Would chalk up the SRL and NZL defeats to our terrible handling of the pressure of a run chase though.

If I remember correctly in 3rd test NZ was 3/43 while still trailing by decent number of runs and Bilal Asif was looking pretty mediocre and wasnt creating pressure to support Yasir at the other end. Williamson and Nicholls went onto create a big partnership, couple of wickets there could have made a huge difference to the result.

Against Srl we batted poorly but still with a decent spinner playing along with Yasir we might have to chase less runs or no runs at all (There were situations on which we were unable to capitalize).

We have number of weaknesses in the team already so I believe doing even the easily controllable things totally wrong only make us looks worse team then we are. No denying that other factors have been there as well but this one I think has been pretty decisive especially against non subcontinental and is not given as much importance.

 

[MMHS]

I think, this time I’ll put more blame on Arthur (& Sarfraz) than Inzi. Arthur coming from the same school of thoughts, which is built on “runs from spinner” foundation - therefore his demand, game tactics are around “spin all-rounders” rather than specialist spinners.

Bob being the pioneer of modern coaching systems, was surprisingly poor in using or developing spinners. Not only spinners, he actually valued “all-rounders” over specialist bowlers - one prime example, for which he paid ultimate fine was 1996 WC QF - picked Symcox over Donald!!!!!

For PAK as well, gradually he dropped Saq/Arshad, Mushi/Danish and didn’t even tried any SLAO spinner. Instead, his picks were Malik, Hafeez & Afridi while Rehman debuted after he left (passed away), into his 11th year of FC cricket. Arthur learned most of his traits from that man.

I am getting disappointed with Shadab by every series for his bowling and any typical south Asian coach, by now Shadab would have lost his ODI spot - he can’t demand a starting spot with his bowling and then SR of 65 batting at 7 - they didn’t even try a back up leggi either while Gohar’s story is written many times here.

I do give partial blame to Sarfraz because now he is into his 3rd year as Captain and he comes after 6 years experience of watching Misbah, but Inzi is the least culprit of the trio here for me. Also, I must put lots of blame on PCB, because why Saq & Mushi should be working with ECB & WICB, when PAK is struggling big time in spin department!!!!!

 

[SensiblePakFan]

Ajmal, Abdur-Rehman, Hafeez. Amazing trio.

 

[Hasan123]

I have said for months about playing specialist spinners in all formats. Every major team is going to play a spinner who makes the bowling team on merit alone. It just shows how far behind we are .

 

[Chokli]

Hence the reason for our bowling attack being toothless.

Umer Khan, Kashif Bhatti, Irfan Jr, Gohar, Mir... All of these should have played a few matches already.

Especially in that Australian series.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mushtaq Ahmed involved as a spin bowling coach at the NCA till 2018? An individual who's services have been sought after by England and West Indies in recent times, with standing offers from Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, has not been able to identify ONE good back-up to Shadab Khan/Imad Wasim in his stint?

Isn't that a damning indictment of the spin bowling talent in our country? Or are we content on criticizing Arthur/Inzi, and ignore the elephant in the room?

 

[unemployedgm]

Bilal Asif earned more opportunities. He was accurate and intelligent.

Usama Mir deserved opportunities in shorter formats.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Good thread. I don't have confidence in any of the current spinners favoured by the selectors. Yasir is done, Shadab is also not good enough in my opinion, and Imad isn't really a spinner.

Hafeez and Malik are also part time bowlers and no doubt they are going to be brought in now Yasir has shown he is in no shape to bowl these days. Pakistan really needed a proper spinner in the side and they don't have even ONE.

 

[Markhor]

We all know Yasir's capability in white ball cricket, but suddenly Shadab is the saviour even though he averages nearly 40 against top teams !

Neither are good enough but our fascination with bits and pieces continues.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Good to see Imad getting carted for 63 runs in his spell as well. He's meant to be our best spinner, but he doesn't turn the ball so is always likely to get blasted if a side really needs to get after him.

 

[W63L35]

Proper spinners have not been tried in a desire to have "all rounders" in the team.... at least the spinners who can bat better than the pacers (except Ashraf). Otherwise you are suck with 5 batsmen, 1 keeper and 5 bowlers who can not bat.

 

[MenInG]

Great to hear young Tazeem Ali picking up a pair of wickets on his Warwickshire 2nd XI debut.

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[MenInG]

Shadab not really bowled that much - so has the 2 spinner policy worked?

 

[MMHS]

Shadab not really bowled that much - so has the 2 spinner policy worked?

It has worked - he has averaged 23.50 with ball and scored 60 runs in the game. That’s you prorate to a 100 Test career ... it’s like 200 wickets at 23 and 5000 runs at 30..... it’s genuine ATG performance.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

Yes we need a damn finger spinner already. Abdur Rehman was crucial in our last SENA win, against NZ in 2011.