Hazrat Umar's Reign [Justice and Democractic Principals]

[Zechariah]

One of the greatest leaders in history, worth the share from Wiki.

Umar was already not a endearing figure in Medina. Although almost all of the Muslims had given pledge of loyalty to him, nevertheless he was rather more feared than loved. The first challenge for Umar was to win out his subjects and members of Majlis al Shura.[44] Umar was a gifted orator, and he would use his ability to get a soft corner in the hearts of people.[45] On Friday prayers Umar addressed the people as follow:

Brethren, it has come to my notice that the people are afraid of me..... they say that he (Umar) has become the Caliph now, God knows how hard he will be. Whoever has said this is not wrong in his assessment...... know ye brethren that you will feel a change in me.[46] For those who practice tyranny and deprive others of their rights, I will be harsh and stern, but for those who follow the law, I will be most soft and tender.

Umar's addresses greatly moved the people. Next time he addressed the people as:

"I will be harsh and stern against the aggressor[47], but I will be a pillar of strength for the weak.

I will not calm down until i will put one cheek of a tyrant on the ground and the other under my feet, and for the poor and weak, i will put my cheek on the ground."

There could be no better definition of the democracy and justice, then the historic words of Umar,[48] over which he laid foundation of his rule:

By God, he that is weakest among you shall be in my eye the strongest[49], until I have vindicated for him his rights; he that is strongest I will treat as the weakest, until he complies with the law.

Umar's stress was on the well being of poor and underprivileged people, as this class made a bulk of any community, the people were soundly moved by Umar's speeches and his popularity grew rapidly and continuously over the period of his reign.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar#Reign_as_Caliph

 

[nabeel_1990]

ok do you believe in western democracy or the system like the one at the prophets time or a bit of both?

 

[Zechariah]

ok do you believe in western democracy or the system like the one at the prophets time or a bit of both?

Why are you joining the word democracy with the west in every post?

 

[mindless slogging]

Why are you joining the word democracy with the west in every post?

I think because in the west it is seen as their principle and their right to introduce it to foreign lands.

 

[mindless slogging]

Anyway great post. I also heard a story about Hazrat Umar (RA):

Once the emperor of Rome came to see Hazrat Umar (RA) and wanted to see his kingdom after Hazrat Umar (RA) had conquered many lands for Islam and defeated many of the powers of that time; Byzantine, Roman etc. He suspected Hazrat Umar (RA) would be living in palaces of gold with many servants.

When he arrived in Madinah, he saw a man talking shelter from the blistering heat from the midday Arabian sun, by lying under the shade of the tree. There was a hole dug beside him, suggesting he was taking a break from labour, and was using a brick to rest his head on. The emperor thought, Hazrat Umar (RA) works his servants well, I wonder how grand his Palace will be.

As he approached the man and asked him for the directions to the whereabouts of Hazrat Umar (RA), he replied this is the Umar you are seeking. The emperor, in astonishment, enquired about his kingdom, his servants, his clothes(Hazrat Umar (RA) used to wear clothes with handsowned patches on), and Hazrat Umar (RA) replied he didn't have any of that. The emperor asked how his army was so great and how he would conquer all this countries; Hazrat Umar (RA) replied by the hadith of the Prophet (peace be upon him), with these words also found in the last sermon;

I leave behind me two things, the Qur'an and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.

Hazrat Umar (RA) understood the words of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and knew success only came from Allah, and the means of that success was the Quran and Sunnah. If only we had a leader like Hazrat Umar (RA) in today's time.

 

[Ralync]

Salaam

What has democracy got to do with Hadrat Umar's reign?

 

[mindless slogging]

Salaam

What has democracy got to do with Hadrat Umar's reign?

Well he did leave back some rules on how to select a new leader etc. but that is way too complicated for me. Someone tried explaining it in writing and it was about 2 sides of A4. If I get it, I'll try to post it and there were a lot of democratic principles in it.

 

[mamoo gogo]

one of the greatest men of all time, and one of the greatest leaders of all time...

 

[waqar_ahmad]

I just love Hazrat Umar RA. His justice and the way he ruled are so well known.

I remember someone telling me, that it was said during his Caliphate, that a lion and a goat can drink water at the same place. This is how just he was, and how everyone was treated fairly and equally.

 

[Cheguvera]

If it wasn't for Hazrat Umar (RA) many of us would not be muslim today...many a western historians have refused to believe a man of such profound conviction, integrity, courage and competence to lead coud have existed...

 

[Xohaib]

truly a great great leader

 

[khan-92]

Hazrat Umar(ra) was truly a great man may Allah reward him.
If anyone wants to learn more about Hazrat Umar(ra) then listen to these lectures by Imam Anwar al Awlaki Masha'Allah they are very good and you will learn more about this great man.

http://islambase.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=646&Itemid=181

 

[PakPassionate]

Hazrat Umar Farooq (r.a) is hero of Islam

Sayings of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w):

1. I see that devil either from humans or jinn, runs away from Umar. (Tirimzi)

2. I saw in a dream that I was given a bowl of milk which I drunk and remaining I gave it to Umar. (Tirimzi)

3. No doubt, ALLAH has issue truth, on the tongue and in the heart of Umar. (Tirimzi)

4. If some else Prophet should have been proposed by ALLAH after me, would have been Umar bin Khattab. (Tirimzi)

 

[Cheguvera]

Hazrat Umar Farooq (r.a) is hero of Islam

Sayings of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.w):

1. I see that devil either from humans or jinn, runs away from Umar. (Tirimzi)

2. I saw in a dream that I was given a bowl of milk which I drunk and remaining I gave it to Umar. (Tirimzi)

3. No doubt, ALLAH has issue truth, on the tongue and in the heart of Umar. (Tirimzi)

4. If some else Prophet should have been proposed by ALLAH after me, would have been Umar bin Khattab. (Tirimzi)

This particular hadith burns a lot of our so called fellow muslims...

 

[mamoo gogo]

This particular hadith burns a lot of our so called fellow muslims...

well said...

 

[PakPassionate]

This particular hadith burns a lot of our so called fellow muslims...

lol yea agree with u....

 

[marlonbrowndo]

27 : 45 to 29 : 00

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LwksTOE9f7U" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[marlonbrowndo]

 

[Abdullah719]

27 : 45 to 29 : 00

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LwksTOE9f7U" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Watched the Omar series?

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Watched the Omar series?

No but it’s been on my watchlist. I’ve done a lot of my own research on early Islamic history though

 

[SpiritOf1903]

One of the key proponents in Islam's spread - fairly

 

[marlonbrowndo]

The second greatest human being to walk this earth besides the prophets. Though I don’t like to make distinctions among any of the companions

 

[SpiritOf1903]

The second greatest human being to walk this earth besides the prophets. Though I don’t like to make distinctions among any of the companions

That's a very strong statement.. Oman's religion believes that but the latter part is true. We cannot distinguish the Great Four (RA)

 

[Greenstorm]

The transformation of simple Arabian tribesmen into the greatest human beings that ever lived, as happened in early years of Islam (in such short time span), is unprecedented in human history. Such was the effect of Quran and Prophet's companionship.

 

[Tubs]

The transformation of simple Arabian tribesmen into the greatest human beings that ever lived, as happened in early years of Islam (in such short time span), is unprecedented in human history. Such was the effect of Quran and Prophet's companionship.

That's entirely subjective. Sure, they did some great things, but there were many conquests, stonings, amputations, lashings, slaves taken, etc. If they can still be the greatest humans despite of that in your eyes, then fair enough.

 

[Bewal Express]

Brilliant to read such inspiring stories. We have lost our way so badly that it pains me to see our ummah at such a low ebb. My friend took a mercy mission to BD around 3 years ago, and when in a refugee camp he was approached by an elderly women who had lost family members to the murderous Burmese, she asked when the Muslim armies would arrive to protect the Royhinga in Burma, my friend said he was too embarrassed to tell the truth. Our leaders have no sense of purpose, it seems that material goods and sexual deviancy is the only thing they aspire to.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Brilliant to read such inspiring stories. We have lost our way so badly that it pains me to see our ummah at such a low ebb. My friend took a mercy mission to BD around 3 years ago, and when in a refugee camp he was approached by an elderly women who had lost family members to the murderous Burmese, she asked when the Muslim armies would arrive to protect the Royhinga in Burma, my friend said he was too embarrassed to tell the truth. Our leaders have no sense of purpose, it seems that material goods and sexual deviancy is the only thing they aspire to.

I think there's been a decline in understanding. Aren't Rohingya ethnically Bengali?

 

[Hasan]

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: When the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was dying, there were men in the house among whom was ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab. The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Come, let me write for you a document after which you will not go astray.” ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is overcome with pain, and you have the Qur’an; the Book of Allah is sufficient for us. The people in the house disagreed, and they argued. Some of them said: Come close and let the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) write for you a document after which you will not go astray. Others agreed with what ‘Umar said. When their debating and argument in the presence of the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) became too much, the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Get up and leave.”

‘Ubayd-Allah said: Ibn ‘Abbaas used to say: What a calamity it was when the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was prevented from writing that document for them because of their disagreement and arguing.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6932) and Muslim (1637)

 

[Bewal Express]

I think there's been a decline in understanding. Aren't Rohingya ethnically Bengali?

Yes, but they have been in Burma for 100s of years.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Yes, but they have been in Burma for 100s of years.

But if you don't at least become a tolerant if not integrated community, then as a minority you have to behave commensurate to your standing

 

[IAJ]

Ah what a great leader he (ra) was, Ma sha Allah. A true star of the beloved Prophet (saw).

 

[Madplayer]

That's entirely subjective. Sure, they did some great things, but there were many conquests, stonings, amputations, lashings, slaves taken, etc. If they can still be the greatest humans despite of that in your eyes, then fair enough.

To conquer or to get eaten up by other empires were the only two options back then. Any sane person would know which one to choose. Conquests have taken place in modern times as well. Objections to the punishment part is plainly hypocritical when hangings and electric chairs have been used by modern democracies as means of punishment.

 

[Justcrazy]

The second greatest human being to walk this earth besides the prophets. Though I don’t like to make distinctions among any of the companions

I would say probably Umar RA rule was the best among the khulafa E Rasheed , the period was best , but that does not mean he was greatest or second greatest .

 

[Justcrazy]

That's a very strong statement.. Oman's religion believes that but the latter part is true. We cannot distinguish the Great Four (RA)

We have to include Imam Hassan in their as well because he was also khulafa E Rasheed.

 

[guna]

To conquer or to get eaten up by other empires were the only two options back then. Any sane person would know which one to choose. Conquests have taken place in modern times as well. Objections to the punishment part is plainly hypocritical when hangings and electric chairs have been used by modern democracies as means of punishment.

You cannot compare a human empire with God's empire. God's empire (Caliphite) does not have to conquer the world subjugating every other nation who come in their way to protect yourself.

 

[Madplayer]

You cannot compare a human empire with God's empire. God's empire (Caliphite) does not have to conquer the world subjugating every other nation who come in their way to protect yourself.

Who told you caliphate is God's empire?

 

[Manik Rao]

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: When the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was dying, there were men in the house among whom was ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab. The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Come, let me write for you a document after which you will not go astray.” ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is overcome with pain, and you have the Qur’an; the Book of Allah is sufficient for us. The people in the house disagreed, and they argued. Some of them said: Come close and let the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) write for you a document after which you will not go astray. Others agreed with what ‘Umar said. When their debating and argument in the presence of the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) became too much, the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Get up and leave.”

‘Ubayd-Allah said: Ibn ‘Abbaas used to say: What a calamity it was when the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was prevented from writing that document for them because of their disagreement and arguing.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6932) and Muslim (1637)

Don't know what Islam you follow/practice but the Islam that I know of & is practiced all around the world makes it an absolute compulsion for its followers to believe that there's nothing beyond Allah Almighty's control & even a leaf cannot move without His orders, let alone something as important as Allah's Wahi (revelation) not reaching the concerned audience (as some jokers imply).

If Allah SWT wanted something revealed to His people, there's no power in the universe that could stop it from happening... Neither Hazrat Umar (RA), nor anyone else.

As far as the hadith you quoted is concerned, Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) instructed his companions who were present with him during his illness to bring a piece of paper and a pen, so that he could dictate to them something that had nothing to do with a new revelation that he had not yet conveyed to the people, or with any shar‘i instruction that the people needed that had to do with their religion. Then he decided not to tell them about that matter, because of what happened. The evidence for that is as follows:

(a) This incident happened on a Thursday, and the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) died on the following Monday, i.e., four days later. He could have asked others to write that document, but because he (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) did not do that, we know that it was not revelation that he could have concealed.

(b) Allah, may He be exalted, praised His Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) for having conveyed what He revealed to him, and Allah, may He be exalted, reminded this ummah of the blessing that He had bestowed upon them by perfecting their religion and completing His favour upon them. The idea that what the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) did not write was part of the religion that all of the ummah needs is tantamount to accusing the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) of not conveying the message, and it constitutes disbelief in what the Lord, may He be exalted, said about the religion being perfected and His blessing being completed upon His slaves.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

The writing of this document is not something that Allah enjoined upon him to write or convey at that time. If that had been the case, he (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) would not have failed to do what Allah instructed him to do.

Minhaaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah (6/315, 316)

And he (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

It was not permissible for him to abandon writing the document because of the doubts that some had about (its importance). If what he intended to write in the document was something that he was obliged to convey and disclose, then the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) would have disclosed it and written it in a document, and he would not have paid any attention to the view of anybody, for he was the most obedient of creation to Allah. Thus it is known that when he decided not to write the document, the document was not obligatory and it would not have contained anything of religious matters that he was obliged to write at that time, because if that had been necessary, he would have done it.

Minhaaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah (6/12)

(c) What we have mentioned is supported by the fact that the Sahaabah who were with the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) differed with regard to their understanding of his instruction to bring writing materials and what he really intended. Otherwise they would all have hastened to fulfil his instructions. It was proven from them that they took off their shoes during the prayer because of merely seeing the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) take off his shoes during the prayer, without him instructing them to do that, so would such people have gone against an instruction if they believed it to be part of the revelation? They are far above doing such a thing. Therefore, some of them got up to bring a piece of paper and a pen, as the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) had asked them to do, and others refrained, thinking that he (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) may have been overwhelmed with pain, or that his instruction was meant as a recommendation only.

Abu’l-‘Abbaas al-Qurtubi (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

With regard to the words “Come, let me write for you a document after which you will not go astray”, this is a command and a request that was addressed to everyone present. Hence it was the duty of everyone who was present to hasten to obey this command, especially when it was followed by the words “after which you will not go astray”. But ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) and others thought that this command was not by way of obligation; rather it was by way of recommendation. Moreover, in the Book of Allah there is guidance to everything that the Muslim needs, as Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “And We have sent down to you the Book (the Quran) as an exposition of everything” [an-Nahl 16:89]. In addition to that, the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was suffering pain, so ‘Umar did not want him to have to do something that may be very difficult for him in that situation. Therefore they decided that it was more appropriate for him not to write anything. But the other group wanted him to write the document, following the apparent meaning of the command and out of eagerness for more clarification and to remove any ambiguity. Would that that had happened! But that is what Allah decreed, and whatever He wills happens. But there should be no blame or criticism of the first group, because the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) did not rebuke them or tell them off; rather he said to all of them: “Let me be, for I am fine.”

islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/134757

 

[Hasan]

Basic misconception expressed in your post:

- man is granted certain but temporary latitude to exercise free will. This limited freedom is a blessing as its proper exercise can raise man to greatest of honour or its inappropriate use can reduce man to depth of dishonour. The exercise of this free will is not predetermined and can be exercised independence of gods recommendations.

- the revelation were completed and perfected and they cannot be added to or amended. However, interpretation and implementation of revelations are relative to situations, time and interpretation. Prophets were both recipients of the revelations and once revealed guides to their interpretation and implications. That is why Allah notes in no uncertain terms that all aspects of the Prophets life is subject to Allah’s endorsement. The events of this Hadith relate to the interpretation of the revelations.

- if you read the Quran and Hadith you will become aware that both Allah and the Prophet have warned against turning back, ie ignoring the revelations.

Quran Sura Imran- “MuHammad is but a messenger, there have been messengers before him. So, if he dies or is killed, would you turn back on your heels? Whoever turns back on his heels can never harm Allah in the least. Allah shall soon reward the grateful”.

This Hadith was the last effort of Mohammad the guide, to prevent his nation turning back on their heels.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Basic misconception expressed in your post:

- man is granted certain but temporary latitude to exercise free will. This limited freedom is a blessing as its proper exercise can raise man to greatest of honour or its inappropriate use can reduce man to depth of dishonour. The exercise of this free will is not predetermined and can be exercised independence of gods recommendations.

- the revelation were completed and perfected and they cannot be added to or amended. However, interpretation and implementation of revelations are relative to situations, time and interpretation. Prophets were both recipients of the revelations and once revealed guides to their interpretation and implications. That is why Allah notes in no uncertain terms that all aspects of the Prophets life is subject to Allah’s endorsement. The events of this Hadith relate to the interpretation of the revelations.

- if you read the Quran and Hadith you will become aware that both Allah and the Prophet have warned against turning back, ie ignoring the revelations.

Quran Sura Imran- “MuHammad is but a messenger, there have been messengers before him. So, if he dies or is killed, would you turn back on your heels? Whoever turns back on his heels can never harm Allah in the least. Allah shall soon reward the grateful”.

This Hadith was the last effort of Mohammad the guide, to prevent his nation turning back on their heels.

So going by your correct claim that implementation is important regardless of whether the Prophet is alive or not. Tell me, under whose rule was Islam at its most unified and prosperous, after the prophet passed away?

 

[marlonbrowndo]

We know that the companions were humans and humans make mistakes. But the “mistake” (if that’s what you interpret it as) that you pointed out in the Hadith [MENTION=318]Hasan[/MENTION] weighs lighter than a feather compared to the weight of all the praise showered upon him by the Prophet and all his good deeds before and during his caliphate.

 

[Hasan]

So going by your correct claim that implementation is important regardless of whether the Prophet is alive or not. Tell me, under whose rule was Islam at its most unified and prosperous, after the prophet passed away?

You see I have a fundamental issue with the concept of “rulership” in Islam. The prophet himself never intended Islam to be a religion of rulers and subjects or a religion of expansionism based on empires. The Prophet was a steward, a teacher and a guide to the way of Allah. The Prophet lived a life of a man who first and foremost was a slave of Allah, who through his respect and love of Allah’s creatures become a blessings to entire mankind. True Islam, as intended by Allah and implemented by the Prophet, was based on propagation based on reason, knowledge, love, tolerance and respect. To me the true successor of the Prophet is the one who best reflects the defining attributes of the Prophet.

So if you want to know who was the best reflection of the character of the Prophet after the Prophet. Well in that case, I will ask you to look for a man who the prophet loved the most, the one who reflected the knowledge and wisdom of the Prophet, one one who showed the strength of character and bravery of the Prophet. The one who the prophet nurtured, trained, trusted and tested the most at the key moments of his mission. The one who the Prophet bequeathed his most precious and beloved gift from Allah. The one whose actions where captured in the revelations of the Quran as exemplifying the best nature and characteristics of a believing man.

My prophet was a blessing, a guide, a defender and a teacher for that segment of humanity who seek a beneficent and merciful creator. My prophet was not a ruler, a conqueror, an emperor, a man of power and war.

My true steward of Islam after the Prophet was the one who best reflected the beauty of the prophet. And that is what we ask when we say “ Guide us on the straight path, the path of those who have received your grace” in the first sura of the Quran.

 

[Hasan]

We know that the companions were humans and humans make mistakes. But the “mistake” (if that’s what you interpret it as) that you pointed out in the Hadith [MENTION=318]Hasan[/MENTION] weighs lighter than a feather compared to the weight of all the praise showered upon him by the Prophet and all his good deeds before and during his caliphate.

I am not casting a judgment on the individual, my intention was to note that had the Prophet been granted his final and dying wish the course of Muslim history may have taken a different course. But sadly and tragically the Prophet was denied.

 

[Khan12]

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: When the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was dying, there were men in the house among whom was ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab. The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Come, let me write for you a document after which you will not go astray.” ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) is overcome with pain, and you have the Qur’an; the Book of Allah is sufficient for us. The people in the house disagreed, and they argued. Some of them said: Come close and let the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) write for you a document after which you will not go astray. Others agreed with what ‘Umar said. When their debating and argument in the presence of the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) became too much, the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Get up and leave.”

‘Ubayd-Allah said: Ibn ‘Abbaas used to say: What a calamity it was when the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) was prevented from writing that document for them because of their disagreement and arguing.

Narrated by al-Bukhaari (6932) and Muslim (1637)

Was expecting a specific sect to bring this. But also expect them not to have an answer.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Was expecting a specific sect to bring this. But also expect them not to have an answer.

Please enlighten us as to your problem with the lack of an "answer". [MENTION=318]Hasan[/MENTION] has merely quoted a piece from Sunni books themselves.

The truthfulness of the calamity of Thursday is unquestionable. It is up to believers such as yourselves to decide whether it was the correct course of action or not.

 

[Mamoon]

The issue is that Muslims today struggle to think of the companions of the Prophet (PBUH) as regular human beings.

The only difference between them and the Muslims that followed was that they had direct contact with the Prophet (PBUH) and they were stronger in faith because they chose to accept Islam instead of being born into the religion like the rest of us.

Apart from that, they are vulnerable like all human beings. The politics in the ummah started as soon as the Prophet (PBUH) was on his deathbed and evolved to the point where the Aisha, the Prophet’s wife went to war with Ali ibn Talib.

It is understandable that the Prophet (PBUH) saw it coming, he could sense what would become of his ummah after he is no longer there keep everything in order, and thus he wanted to take matters in his own hands to choose a successor in order to avoid the inevitable conflict later on.

To be denied that opportunity is something that is not justifiable in my opinion. If the companions felt that the Prophet (PBUH) was very ill and not in complete control of what he wanted to write and seal on that document, they could have discussed it with him while he was writing it and asked for his verbal affirmation.

Umar ibn al-Khattab’s role in the emergence of Islam within Arabia and the rise of the Islamic empire cannot be understated, but his role in influencing the rejection of the Prophet’s last request, whatever reason(s), have no doubt played a huge role in shaping the future of the Muslim ummah.

 

[Hasan]

Was expecting a specific sect to bring this. But also expect them not to have an answer.

Pls do not bring the faith of Bukhari and Muslim into the discussion. They are highly respected compilers of Hadith, and their personal beliefs should not be judged by them narrating Hadith linked to historical events.

Playing the sectarian is not only divisive but also intellectually weak.

 

[Khan12]

Pls do not bring the faith of Bukhari and Muslim into the discussion. They are highly respected compilers of Hadith, and their personal beliefs should not be judged by them narrating Hadith linked to historical events.

Playing the sectarian is not only divisive but also intellectually weak.

When did i bring the faith of Bukhari and Muslim. Do you belive Bukhari and Muslim Hadith are authentic?

 

[Khan12]

Please enlighten us as to your problem with the lack of an "answer". [MENTION=318]Hasan[/MENTION] has merely quoted a piece from Sunni books themselves.

The truthfulness of the calamity of Thursday is unquestionable. It is up to believers such as yourselves to decide whether it was the correct course of action or not.

The answer is in post 37.

 

[Hasan]

When did i bring the faith of Bukhari and Muslim. Do you belive Bukhari and Muslim Hadith are authentic?

Apology but why do you play the sectarian card? How does that advance the discussion?

 

[Justcrazy]

[MENTION=148909]Manik Rao[/MENTION]

Brother Hadhrat Umar did a wrong thing by not giving paper and pen to the prophet. Let us accept the fact. By accepting the fact you will not be punished by God. Every human can do wrong. That is why we are humans and not God.

 

[Justcrazy]

The answer is in post 37.

Brother , When Adam AS heard the order from Allah swt directly yet he did not lusten , was that correct thing to do , will you justify that ?

Adam AS was a prophet , what is hadhrat Umar in front of Adam AS ? So , whay cannot Hadhrat Umar be wrong in that particular incidence ?

 

[Manik Rao]

[MENTION=148909]Manik Rao[/MENTION]

Brother Hadhrat Umar did a wrong thing by not giving paper and pen to the prophet. Let us accept the fact. By accepting the fact you will not be punished by God. Every human can do wrong. That is why we are humans and not God.

Brother, I totally agree human beings are not perfect & can make mistakes. However, the incident under discussion DOES NOT prove beyond doubt thay Hazrat Umar RA was guilty of making an error.

1) If someone in my family is on deathbed & can barely move... And they ask me to give them a pen & paper, I'd try my best to make sure their comfort is not compromised i-e they stay on bed, instead of bearing more pain in order to get up & write.

Perhaps Hazrat Umar (RA) did so because he cared for Prophet PBUH's health? His niyat is only known to Allah SWT. We cannot be certain as to what his intention was when he declined Prophet (PBUH's) orders. However, instead of looking at this incident in isolation, why are we forgetting that Hazrat Umar RA loved Prophet Muhammad PBUH (and vice versa) like no tomorrow. Both stood by each other through the most difficult of times. Why would one not be tempted to give him benefit of doubt in this incident?

Yes, it's a possibility that he may have made a mistake. But it's also a possibility that he did not want Prophet SAW to bear more pain & hence was well within in his right to differ. Allah SWT knows best.


2) Hazrat Ali (RA) was also there at the time incident took place. Why did he (RA) not bring pen/paper? Quite ironical not to see any outrage directed at Hazrat Ali (RA)... If Umar RA did wrong, why didn't Ali RA correct it by bringing pen & paper?

Just to be clear, I'm not blaming Ali (RA) at all. He's as close to my heart as Umar RA... Only meant to expose hypocrisy of posters with sectarian agenda.

3) This incident happened on a Thursday. Prophet (PBUH) left the world on Monday. Friday, Saturday & Sunday. He (SAW) had 3 days to write/convey his message, but he opted not to. Prophets are larger than life. They would NOT hold back information of great benefit, merely out of anger. Had it been something that wasn't already known, Prophet (SAW) would surely have conveyed it later on... And Allah SWT knows best.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Brother, I totally agree human beings are not perfect & can make mistakes. However, the incident under discussion DOES NOT prove beyond doubt thay Hazrat Umar RA was guilty of making an error.

1) If someone in my family is on deathbed & can barely move... And they ask me to give them a pen & paper, I'd try my best to make sure their comfort is not compromised i-e they stay on bed, instead of bearing more pain in order to get up & write.

Perhaps Hazrat Umar (RA) did so because he cared for Prophet PBUH's health? His niyat is only known to Allah SWT. We cannot be certain as to what his intention was when he declined Prophet (PBUH's) orders. However, instead of looking at this incident in isolation, why are we forgetting that Hazrat Umar RA loved Prophet Muhammad PBUH (and vice versa) like no tomorrow. Both stood by each other through the most difficult of times. Why would one not be tempted to give him benefit of doubt in this incident?

Yes, it's a possibility that he may have made a mistake. But it's also a possibility that he did not want Prophet SAW to bear more pain & hence was well within in his right to differ. Allah SWT knows best.


2) Hazrat Ali (RA) was also there at the time incident took place. Why did he (RA) not bring pen/paper? Quite ironical not to see any outrage directed at Hazrat Ali (RA)... If Umar RA did wrong, why didn't Ali RA correct it by bringing pen & paper?

Just to be clear, I'm not blaming Ali (RA) at all. He's as close to my heart as Umar RA... Only meant to expose hypocrisy of posters with sectarian agenda.

3) This incident happened on a Thursday. Prophet (PBUH) left the world on Monday. Friday, Saturday & Sunday. He (SAW) had 3 days to write/convey his message, but he opted not to. Prophets are larger than life. They would NOT hold back information of great benefit, merely out of anger. Had it been something that wasn't already known, Prophet (SAW) would surely have conveyed it later on... And Allah SWT knows best.

Very well put. There’s so much hypocrisy, picking and choosing facts based on convenience and intellectual dishonesty in the arguments that criticize the first 3 caliphs that it often isn’t even worth responding to.

 

[marlonbrowndo]

The issue is that Muslims today struggle to think of the companions of the Prophet (PBUH) as regular human beings.

The only difference between them and the Muslims that followed was that they had direct contact with the Prophet (PBUH) and they were stronger in faith because they chose to accept Islam instead of being born into the religion like the rest of us.

Apart from that, they are vulnerable like all human beings. The politics in the ummah started as soon as the Prophet (PBUH) was on his deathbed and evolved to the point where the Aisha, the Prophet’s wife went to war with Ali ibn Talib.

It is understandable that the Prophet (PBUH) saw it coming, he could sense what would become of his ummah after he is no longer there keep everything in order, and thus he wanted to take matters in his own hands to choose a successor in order to avoid the inevitable conflict later on.

To be denied that opportunity is something that is not justifiable in my opinion. If the companions felt that the Prophet (PBUH) was very ill and not in complete control of what he wanted to write and seal on that document, they could have discussed it with him while he was writing it and asked for his verbal affirmation.

Umar ibn al-Khattab’s role in the emergence of Islam within Arabia and the rise of the Islamic empire cannot be understated, but his role in influencing the rejection of the Prophet’s last request, whatever reason(s), have no doubt played a huge role in shaping the future of the Muslim ummah.

Completely agree with that first paragraph. Perfectly said. Many Muslims today do fail to realize that the companions were in fact human beings. The best of humans but still humans who were capable of making mistakes even if their intentions were pure. So tell me, who do you think the prophet pbuh would’ve picked as his successor instead?

 

[marlonbrowndo]

Brother , When Adam AS heard the order from Allah swt directly yet he did not lusten , was that correct thing to do , will you justify that ?

Adam AS was a prophet , what is hadhrat Umar in front of Adam AS ? So , whay cannot Hadhrat Umar be wrong in that particular incidence ?

It’s so wrong to equate these two incidents. Prophet Adam AS made a mistake that was literally acknowledged by God Himself in the Quaran so any Muslim who knows anything will obviously accept that it was a mistake.

 

[Mamoon]

Completely agree with that first paragraph. Perfectly said. Many Muslims today do fail to realize that the companions were in fact human beings. The best of humans but still humans who were capable of making mistakes even if their intentions were pure. So tell me, who do you think the prophet pbuh would’ve picked as his successor instead?

It is not something that should be speculated, but I would say that he would have chosen Abu Bakr (ra) for the following major reasons.

He was his closest and most trusted companion. He was also renowned for his mild nature and kindness. He did not have the temper and the aggression of Umar (ra) and Ali (ra).

Moreover, appointing a close relative like Ali (ra) would have set a wrong precedence and would have given the impression that the Prophet’s family has superiority over other Muslims. It would have monopolized the leadership of Islam and created further controversies.

 

[Khan12]

Apology but why do you play the sectarian card? How does that advance the discussion?

Look at the thread and then look at your post. We can see whos playing the sectarian card. You still havent answered yet do yoy belive Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim arr authentic?

 

[marlonbrowndo]

[MENTION=148909]Manik Rao[/MENTION]

Brother Hadhrat Umar did a wrong thing by not giving paper and pen to the prophet. Let us accept the fact. By accepting the fact you will not be punished by God. Every human can do wrong. That is why we are humans and not God.

I’m sorry but I can’t stop laughing at you saying “you will not be punished by God” here. Did He tell you in a dream that He will punish those who do not accept that one of the Prophet pbuh’s closest companion made a “mistake” without knowing what his intentions are and without knowing whether this “mistake” would’ve made any difference at all considering the Prophet’s closest companion was chosen to be the first caliph anyway. Very foolish and condescending statement on your part

 

[marlonbrowndo]

It is not something that should be speculated, but I would say that he would have chosen Abu Bakr (ra) for the following major reasons.

He was his closest and most trusted companion. He was also renowned for his mild nature and kindness. He did not have the temper and the aggression of Umar (ra) and Ali (ra).

Moreover, appointing a close relative like Ali (ra) would have set a wrong precedence and would have given the impression that the Prophet’s family has superiority over other Muslims. It would have monopolized the leadership of Islam and created further controversies.

That second paragraph can be expanded to pages but completely agreed

 

[guna]

Who told you caliphate is God's empire?

A Caliphite is the land where Islam reigns supreme and Sharia is the law of the land. Islam is from God and hence a Caliphite is the kingdom of God.

 

[guna]

Medina or Yathrib was a Jewish city. Whatever happened to all of the original jews of Medina? Muslims migrated from Mecca to Medina as refugees escaping persecution by the idol worshippers of the Quresh.

 

[Tubs]

To conquer or to get eaten up by other empires were the only two options back then. Any sane person would know which one to choose. Conquests have taken place in modern times as well. Objections to the punishment part is plainly hypocritical when hangings and electric chairs have been used by modern democracies as means of punishment.

And I object to them to, at least in most cases. However, the difference is, they didn't get killed for speaking bad about a person (in this case, Muhammad), adultery, apostasy, etc.

 

[emranabbas]

Brother, I totally agree human beings are not perfect & can make mistakes. However, the incident under discussion DOES NOT prove beyond doubt thay Hazrat Umar RA was guilty of making an error.

1) If someone in my family is on deathbed & can barely move... And they ask me to give them a pen & paper, I'd try my best to make sure their comfort is not compromised i-e they stay on bed, instead of bearing more pain in order to get up & write.

Perhaps Hazrat Umar (RA) did so because he cared for Prophet PBUH's health? His niyat is only known to Allah SWT. We cannot be certain as to what his intention was when he declined Prophet (PBUH's) orders. However, instead of looking at this incident in isolation, why are we forgetting that Hazrat Umar RA loved Prophet Muhammad PBUH (and vice versa) like no tomorrow. Both stood by each other through the most difficult of times. Why would one not be tempted to give him benefit of doubt in this incident?

Yes, it's a possibility that he may have made a mistake. But it's also a possibility that he did not want Prophet SAW to bear more pain & hence was well within in his right to differ. Allah SWT knows best.


2) Hazrat Ali (RA) was also there at the time incident took place. Why did he (RA) not bring pen/paper? Quite ironical not to see any outrage directed at Hazrat Ali (RA)... If Umar RA did wrong, why didn't Ali RA correct it by bringing pen & paper?

Just to be clear, I'm not blaming Ali (RA) at all. He's as close to my heart as Umar RA... Only meant to expose hypocrisy of posters with sectarian agenda.

3) This incident happened on a Thursday. Prophet (PBUH) left the world on Monday. Friday, Saturday & Sunday. He (SAW) had 3 days to write/convey his message, but he opted not to. Prophets are larger than life. They would NOT hold back information of great benefit, merely out of anger. Had it been something that wasn't already known, Prophet (SAW) would surely have conveyed it later on... And Allah SWT knows best.

1) the point you are missing my brother is not only did Umar (r.a) refused to give him (s.a.w) the pen and paper but also stated Qur'an is enough for us when Muhammed s.a.w wanted to give something that won't make us go astray.
Here we don't know what the prophet s.a.w was going to give us as guidence as Umar r.a restricted him (s.a w)

I understand your point of Umar r.a being concerned about his (s.a.w) health and didn't want him (s.a.w) to bare pain but in the same hadith it states there was "hue" "cry" "Quarral" "noise" so where did the concern disappear the very next minute especially if someone is on the his death bed and hardly can move as you say.

Yes there are plenty of hadiths about praises of Umar r.a before this incident can you present any hadith of praises of Umar r.a by the prophet s a.w after this incident especially after voices were raised Infront of him

49:2 Shakir: O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.

2) the hadith of pen and paper in bukhari does not have any mention of hazrat Ali (a.s) being present or not so that is your assumption

3) the possibility is the message has been conveyed but obviously those companions who were quarraling were not present as they were asked to leave the house of prophet s.a.w

According to Umar r.a Qur'an is enough but according to Muhammed s.a w he is leaving us two weighty things that will not make us go astray Qur'an being one of them

Here is the hadith directly from sahih bukhari
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/3/56

 

[Wiji]

Umar was no doubt an influential figure in the history of Islam.

One of the things Muslims don't mention when they talk about Umar is that Umar categorically stated that certain "Islamic" rules were not applicable in his time, and in some instances he suspended Quranic laws. For me, this is the biggest takeaway lesson from Umar. Unfortunately, many Muslims who love Umar get shocked when they hear about this. For some obvious social and political reasons, this is not often taught in schools.

The following examples show that Umar felt that many "laws" stated in the Quran and Sunnah were time-specific and no longer applied to his time:

1. The Quran is very explicit in the categories of people to whom zakkah is to be given, and the verses even state that "This is an ordinance from God". One of the categories is for "those whose hearts are to be won over". Umar refused to give any share of zakkah to "those whose hearts are to be won over", apparently, in direct opposition to the Quranic command as well as Prophetic practice. Umar reasoned that the verse was revealed when Islam was weak and it needed support of new converts who may not have been sincere in their belief. From his perspective, in his time, Islam was powerful and did not need to win over the hearts of such insincere converts.

2. The Quran explained the method of distribution of spoils of war (booty). The Prophet in his practice used to distribute land as booty. Umar refused to distribute the lands of Iraq and Syria.

3. The Prophet punished the adulterer by exile and the Quranic punishment of 100 lashes. Umar suspended the punishment of exile when a Muslim exile joined the enemies in his time.

4. The Prophet punished the consumer of alcohol by forty strokes of the whip. Umar increased the punishment to eighty strokes.

5. The Prophet did not take zakkah on horses, but Umar began to do so.

And there are more such examples. You can ask your local Islam teacher or your favorite muftis for more such examples if you want.

For me, the most important lesson from Umar was not to blindly follow the texts, but instead to think, ponder, and contemplate according to your time and place in the universe.

 

[Manik Rao]

1) the point you are missing my brother is not only did Umar (r.a) refused to give him (s.a.w) the pen and paper but also stated Qur'an is enough for us when Muhammed s.a.w wanted to give something that won't make us go astray.
Here we don't know what the prophet s.a.w was going to give us as guidence as Umar r.a restricted him (s.a w)

I understand your point of Umar r.a being concerned about his (s.a.w) health and didn't want him (s.a.w) to bare pain but in the same hadith it states there was "hue" "cry" "Quarral" "noise" so where did the concern disappear the very next minute especially if someone is on the his death bed and hardly can move as you say.

Yes there are plenty of hadiths about praises of Umar r.a before this incident can you present any hadith of praises of Umar r.a by the prophet s a.w after this incident especially after voices were raised Infront of him

49:2 Shakir: O you who believe! do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, and do not speak loud to him as you speak loud to one another, lest your deeds became null while you do not perceive.

2) the hadith of pen and paper in bukhari does not have any mention of hazrat Ali (a.s) being present or not so that is your assumption

3) the possibility is the message has been conveyed but obviously those companions who were quarraling were not present as they were asked to leave the house of prophet s.a.w

According to Umar r.a Qur'an is enough but according to Muhammed s.a w he is leaving us two weighty things that will not make us go astray Qur'an being one of them

Here is the hadith directly from sahih bukhari
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/3/56

Sir, as I said before, Hazrat Umar's RA intention when he refused to give Prophet PBUH pen/paper is only known to Allah. Unless you have the power to travel back in time & then maybe sneak right into Umar's (RA) heart & find out what he was thinking at that time. Only then we can be sure. I believe he did so out of care for Prophet's (PBUH) health. You don't believe that, it's your opinion.

Umar (RA) wasn't the one who started hue & cry. He only told those in attendance that Prophet PBUH is ill & that Allah's book is sufficient for us. Read the hadith narration again. Nowhere it says Umar RA started hue & cry.


The hadith from Bukhari Sharif that you & few others have been quoting here to undermine Hazrat Umar (RA), was narrated by Ibne Abbas (RA). Ibne Abbas (RA) is the same Sahabi who said these words at the time Hazrat Umar (RA) got stabbed:

“O Chief of the believers! Never mind what has happened to you, for you have been in the company of Allah’s Apostle and you kept good relations with him and YOU PARTED WITH HIM WHILE HE WAS PLEASED WITH YOU. Then you were in the company of Abu Bakr RA and kept good relations with him and you parted with him (i.e. he died) while he was pleased with you. Then you were in the company of the Muslims, and you kept good relations with them, and if you leave them, you will leave them while they are pleased with you.

“ [Sahih al-Bukhari vol 5, page 36, #3692]. Also [Sahih ibn Hibban vol 15, 314-315, #6891] ; [Mustadrak al Hakim, vol 3, page 98, #4515].


This clearly shows Ibn Abbas RA believed that Prophet Muhammad(SAWS) left this world while he was pleased with Umar RA. Also a clear evidence that a certain sect, in hatred of Umar RA, has made a mountain out of a mole-hill based on their conjecture and speculation. While, the main narrator of the Pen and Paper Event, Ibn Abbas RA, believed that Prophet (SAW) died being pleased with Umar(RA).


Here's another narration from Bukhari (the same source you & another friend of yours has been using to undermine Hazrat Umar RA):

Narrated Ibn Abbas RA: When (the dead body of) Umar RA was put on his deathbed, the people gathered around him and invoked (Allah) and prayed for him before the body was taken away, and I was amongst them. Suddenly I felt somebody taking hold of my shoulder and found out that he was Ali bin Abi Talib RA. Ali invoked Allah’s Mercy for Umar and said, “O Umar! You have not left behind you a person whose deeds I like to imitate and meet Allah with more than I like your deeds. By Allah! I always thought that Allah would keep you with your two companions, for very often I used to hear the Prophet saying,’I, Abu Bakr and Umar went (somewhere); I, Abu Bakr and Umar entered (somewhere); and I, Abu Bakr and Umar went out.” [Sahih al-Bukhari, vol 5, page 32, #3685].

Here, Hazrat Ali (RA), who according to some geniuses, was deprived of Khilafat by Umar RA, himself remembered Umar RA in these words, at the time of his death. This should end the debate once & for all. Unless you now want us to believe that only narrations which suit your narrative are correct.

Ibne Abbas RA never blamed Umar (RA) for using disrespectful or insulting words for the Prophet (SAW) during that incident. The only objection and regret Ibn Abbas(RA) had was that Sahaba disputed and argued with each other infront of the Prophet (SAW), and this wasn’t an appropriate thing in his view.

Ibn Abbas RA said: The people differed in their opinions although it was improper to differ in front of a prophet. [Sahih al-Bukhari vol 4, page 248, #3168].

Ibn Abbas used to say, “No doubt, it was very unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah’s Messenger(SAWS) was prevented from writing for them that writing because of their differences and noise.” [Sahih al-Bukhari vol 5, page 439, #4432]


Clearly obvious in these narrations that Ibn Abbas RA had no objection or criticism over Umar(RA) for allegedly using disrespectful or insulting words for the Prophet(SAW). The only objection & regret Ibn Abbas had was that Sahaba disputed and argued with each other infront of the Prophet (SAW).


Bonus Narration. Again from the source quoted by you (Bukhari) & from the same Sahabi (Hazrat Ibne Abbas RA):

It is related from Ka’b ibn Malik that Ibn Abbas RA informed him that: Ali bin Abu Talib came out of the house of Allah’s Messenger (SAWS) during his fatal illness. The people asked, “O Abu Hasan (i.e. Ali)! How is the health of Allah’s Messenger (SAWS) this morning?” Ali replied, “He has recovered with the Grace of Allah.” Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib held him by the hand and said to him, “In three days you, by Allah, will be ruled (by somebody else ), And by Allah, I feel that Allah’s Apostle will die from this ailment of his, for I know how the faces of the offspring of Abdul Muttalib look at the time of their death. So let us go to Allah’s Messenger (SAWS) and ask him who will take over the Caliphate. If it is given to us we will know as to it, and if it is given to somebody else, we will inform him so that he may tell the new ruler to take care of us.” Ali said, “By Allah, if we asked Allah’s Apostle for it (i.e. the Caliphate) and he denied it us, the people will never give it to us after that. And by Allah, I will not ask Allah’s Messenger (SAWS) for it."

[Sahih al-Bukhari vol 5, page 444-445, #4447].

This is a clear evidence that contrary to Shia claim, the main narrator of Hadeeth al-Qirtas, didn’t believe that Prophet(SAWS) asked pen and paper to appoint Ali (RA) as Caliph. According to Ibn Abbas, even Ali and Abbas didn’t believe that Prophet (SAWS) asked Pen and Paper to appoint Ali(RA).

Allah knows best.

 

[Justcrazy]

Brother, I totally agree human beings are not perfect & can make mistakes. However, the incident under discussion DOES NOT prove beyond doubt thay Hazrat Umar RA was guilty of making an error.

1) If someone in my family is on deathbed & can barely move... And they ask me to give them a pen & paper, I'd try my best to make sure their comfort is not compromised i-e they stay on bed, instead of bearing more pain in order to get up & write.

Perhaps Hazrat Umar (RA) did so because he cared for Prophet PBUH's health? His niyat is only known to Allah SWT. We cannot be certain as to what his intention was when he declined Prophet (PBUH's) orders. However, instead of looking at this incident in isolation, why are we forgetting that Hazrat Umar RA loved Prophet Muhammad PBUH (and vice versa) like no tomorrow. Both stood by each other through the most difficult of times. Why would one not be tempted to give him benefit of doubt in this incident?

Yes, it's a possibility that he may have made a mistake. But it's also a possibility that he did not want Prophet SAW to bear more pain & hence was well within in his right to differ. Allah SWT knows best.


2) Hazrat Ali (RA) was also there at the time incident took place. Why did he (RA) not bring pen/paper? Quite ironical not to see any outrage directed at Hazrat Ali (RA)... If Umar RA did wrong, why didn't Ali RA correct it by bringing pen & paper?

Just to be clear, I'm not blaming Ali (RA) at all. He's as close to my heart as Umar RA... Only meant to expose hypocrisy of posters with sectarian agenda.

3) This incident happened on a Thursday. Prophet (PBUH) left the world on Monday. Friday, Saturday & Sunday. He (SAW) had 3 days to write/convey his message, but he opted not to. Prophets are larger than life. They would NOT hold back information of great benefit, merely out of anger. Had it been something that wasn't already known, Prophet (SAW) would surely have conveyed it later on... And Allah SWT knows best.

There are about six or seven chain of narrations in Bukhari itself of this hadeeth. Has Hadhrat Umar explained there why he did not give? No he did not.

Now you are using the word perhaps, it is your opinion, we do not find any such thing there.

When a person is dying his last wish has to be fulfilled , moreover it was not a common person , he was a prophet. More important is the fact the words prophet said , he said I will write something which will amke sure there are no issues after that . I do not need to emphasis here how important the matter is.

What Umar Had in his heart , we would not know , but we are supposed to jusge from outside , that is why I said he was wrong.

We do not direct any thing anout Ali , because Umar is explicitly mentioned there and he was against the order of the prophet. I do not think Ali is mentioned being present there.

Again , from the point number 3 you made , off course whatever the prophet wanted to mention was not part of deen , because that was already completed .

 

[Justcrazy]

It’s so wrong to equate these two incidents. Prophet Adam AS made a mistake that was literally acknowledged by God Himself in the Quaran so any Muslim who knows anything will obviously accept that it was a mistake.

The point is that humans do make mistakes , it does not mean by making mistake someone will be in hell. Many people refuse to accept that big personality cannot make mistakes.

 

[Justcrazy]

I’m sorry but I can’t stop laughing at you saying “you will not be punished by God” here. Did He tell you in a dream that He will punish those who do not accept that one of the Prophet pbuh’s closest companion made a “mistake” without knowing what his intentions are and without knowing whether this “mistake” would’ve made any difference at all considering the Prophet’s closest companion was chosen to be the first caliph anyway. Very foolish and condescending statement on your part

As I mentioned in my previous post, there are people who think that if they say that a certain companion did wrong on some instance that is considered an insult, and it is a sin.

For example very few people, who call themselves as sunnis accept that hadhrat Ayesha going against Ali in Jamal was wrong. Those Muslims generally become Neutral. Where as Hadhrat Ayesha stance on that issue was wrong . There are authentic hadeeth regarding that.

 

[Hasan]

Allah gives no latitude to oppose the wishes of the Prophet. Clearly those who said Quran is sufficient for us were not following the most fundamental message of the Quran.

“You should accept whatever the Messenger gives you and abandon whatever he tells you to abandon. Have taqwa of Allah”... (Surat al-Hashr: 7)

“Nor does he speak from whim. It is nothing but Revelation revealed”. (Surat al-Najm: 3-4)

“Say: "If you love Allah, then follow me and Allah will love you and forgive your sins." (Surah Al `Imran: 31)

“O you who believe, obey Allah, the Messenger, and those in command among you. If you disagree about something, refer it back to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best thing to do and gives the best result”. (Surat an-Nisa`: 59)

“No, by your Lord, they are not believers until they make you ( the Prophet) their judge in the disputes that break out between them and then do not resist what you decide and submit themselves [to you] completely”. (Surat an-Nisa`: 65)

“When Allah and His Messenger have decided something, no believing man or woman has a choice about [following or not following] it. Anyone who disobeys Allah and His Messenger is clearly misguided”. (Surat al-Ahzab: 36)

“ But if anyone opposes the Messenger after the guidance has become clear to him, and follows a path other than that of the believers, We will hand him over to whatever he has turned to, and We will roast him in Hell. What an evil destination!” (Surat an-Nisa`: 115)

“O you who believe, respond to Allah and to the Messenger when He calls you to what will bring you to life. Know that Allah intervenes between a person and his heart and that you will be gathered to Him”. (Surat al-Anfal: 24)

“The believers` reply, when they are summoned to Allah and His Messenger so that he can judge between them, is to say, "We hear and we obey." They are ones who are successful”. (Surat al-Nur: 51)

 

[DeadBall]

Good to see that now that all other problems have been solved we can focus our energies on who didn't give a pen and paper and for what reason 1400 years ago.

 

[Hasan]

Good to see that now that all other problems have been solved we can focus our energies on who didn't give a pen and paper and for what reason 1400 years ago.

Sorry but is that not the entire purpose of an open and non-specific discussion forum. People debate and exchange ideas about issues of interest to them. And if the discussion is not of interest to you then you do not partake!

Historical events and their longer term implications do, I believe, fit squarely within the remit of such a forum as TP.

 

[DeadBall]

Sorry but is that not the entire purpose of an open and non-specific discussion forum. People debate and exchange ideas about issues of interest to them. And if the discussion is not of interest to you then you do not partake!

Historical events and their longer term implications do, I believe, fit squarely within the remit of such a forum as TP.

It is and it was tongue in cheek but many on this forum take this very seriously which is why I find it funny. Already there have been hints of the other sects (we know who) and then this ultimately leads to things much worse. The only reason there is no name calling calling and judgment of who's a Muslim or not yet (actually there has been one already) is because the forum doesn't allow it.

If this was indeed done as an exercise in history as you suggest then I would get it but people will form even worse opinions of others who do not follow the exact same version of the religion themselves and alienate and even worse hate others because of something that allegedly happened thousands of years ago. And these are the educated ones, nevermind the illiterate and parhe likhe jaahil who would kill each other, destroy each others properties and many other worse things over such inconsequential stories.

It used to make me mad as hell before but now I just find it amusing.

 

[Hasan]

It is and it was tongue in cheek but many on this forum take this very seriously which is why I find it funny. Already there have been hints of the other sects (we know who) and then this ultimately leads to things much worse. The only reason there is no name calling calling and judgment of who's a Muslim or not yet (actually there has been one already) is because the forum doesn't allow it.

If this was indeed done as an exercise in history as you suggest then I would get it but people will form even worse opinions of others who do not follow the exact same version of the religion themselves and alienate and even worse hate others because of something that allegedly happened thousands of years ago. And these are the educated ones, nevermind the illiterate and parhe likhe jaahil who would kill each other, destroy each others properties and many other worse things over such inconsequential stories.

It used to make me mad as hell before but now I just find it amusing.

Point taken. But i also think that such forums also provide a wonderful platforms to hear the other perspective which I am sure most of us would not normally hear from our parents and religious leaders.

A Muslim who have never challenged his/her beliefs is either lying or stupid. It is through this journey of questioning and challenging oneself that we achieve true faith. And that is what we learn from the journey of Prophet Ibrahim, which ended in him achieving very great status.

In a very small way these forums can contribute to our journeys if we have an open and honest heart.

 

[DeadBall]

In a very small way these forums can contribute to our journeys if we have an open and honest heart.

And there in lies the crux of the matter. It takes a lot of courage and self introspection to honestly contemplate something which has been drilled into one's psyche since birth by the parents, family, society etc.

Most people I know just debate religion to prove their version is right or for confirmation bias. Also since most of it is hundreds of years old and based on the accounts of a some people and the "divine" even questioning the credibility of specific events or instances can be turned blasphemous. It is not like a scientific forum where you can bring new tried and tested arguments to challenge the old ones where one can then reassess according to the new information.

Almost everything has been set in stone and has been translated, interpreted and discussed ad nauseum for centuries, no one here can bring anything new to the argument.

But hey, if there is even one person this helps to look at things with a more honest and objective approach and perhaps help them evolve then it is probably worth it.