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Hell in Different Religions...

shaykh

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This kind of comes from a discussion in another thread...

A religion believes itself to be correct so what therefore is the punishment for disbelief?...the usual answer is Hell...but things aren't that straightforward...

I can only only really speak with knowledge on the Abrahamic religions...so for the Hindus or Sikhs or any other religious guys on the forum feel free to add what your faith says on the subject...

There are of course differences of opinion on the faiths mentioned so i'm going with the most mainstream ideas...

Judaism
Judaism doesn't seem to concern itself with the Afterlife too much...it's significantly more focus on the present...If you're a disbeliever you can actually get into Jewish heaven...most people end up in purgatory for a year as a period of cleansing before they enter heaven...all but the most wicked are given that right...and interestingly belief and actions aren't intertwined...one can be a good person who does good deeds without being a believer...interestingly because Muslims follow the Noahide rules they go to heaven...the most evil of people aren't given eternal torment rather they cease to exist...

Christianity
This is where fire and brimstone comes in and also the notion of eternal too...while Judaism and Islam are similar in that they reject the Trinity...Islam and Christianity are very similar in using Heaven and Hell as a reward and punishment system as means for motivation...language such as 'fiery torment', 'everlasting destruction', 'eternal fire', 'torment day and night' etc...

That said there is so much diversity in Christian interpretation so it is difficult to give a general view...

You got the Pope Francis types who say atheists will go to Heaven...and that good deeds and belief can be separated...ie one can be a good person without being a Christian...the Roman Catholic Church believes non Christians can be 'saved'...That said traditionally that hasn't been the case and Catholicism was exclusivist and believed rejection of Christ was a ticket to the eternal damnation mentioned above...

Evangelicals meanwhile are exclusivist and believe salvation can only be attained through belief ...anyone who is not Christian is going to Hell...

Islam...

Islam follows with the eternal hell ideas and also the notion of fire...mainstream belief also points to Heaven and Hell exclusivism...belief and deeds are linked...ie without belief there can be no such thing as a good deed...therefore much like the Evangelicals disbelief is a guarantee for eternal damnation...
 
Islam teaches that Hell is a temporary state, that being, that eventually everyone will leave the state of Hell and enter Heaven. A permanent Hell is contradictory to Allah being a Merciful God

“My mercy encompasses all things” (7:157).

This is the fundamental character of God according to the Holy Qur’an. Everything is ruled by Divine Mercy.


The Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said “A time will come in Hell when not a single man would be left in it. Its doors and windows will rattle to the blowing wind” (Kanzul Ummal pg.270).

This Hadith describes an empty Hell. The Mercy of God will eventually take every inmate out of the state of Hell and Hell will become empty.
 
Islam teaches that Hell is a temporary state, that being, that eventually everyone will leave the state of Hell and enter Heaven. A permanent Hell is contradictory to Allah being a Merciful God

“My mercy encompasses all things” (7:157).

This is the fundamental character of God according to the Holy Qur’an. Everything is ruled by Divine Mercy.


The Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said “A time will come in Hell when not a single man would be left in it. Its doors and windows will rattle to the blowing wind” (Kanzul Ummal pg.270).

This Hadith describes an empty Hell. The Mercy of God will eventually take every inmate out of the state of Hell and Hell will become empty.

I thought all disbelievers and banished to hell for eternity?
 
Islam teaches that Hell is a temporary state, that being, that eventually everyone will leave the state of Hell and enter Heaven. A permanent Hell is contradictory to Allah being a Merciful God

“My mercy encompasses all things” (7:157).

This is the fundamental character of God according to the Holy Qur’an. Everything is ruled by Divine Mercy.


The Holy Prophet Muhammad, may peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, said “A time will come in Hell when not a single man would be left in it. Its doors and windows will rattle to the blowing wind” (Kanzul Ummal pg.270).

This Hadith describes an empty Hell. The Mercy of God will eventually take every inmate out of the state of Hell and Hell will become empty.

I'm pretty sure all disbelievers go to hell forever, in Islam. Like Belawal said
 
I heard there are 7 levels of hell. The lowest one for hypocrites. One of them called Jaheem. One of them is really cold. An angel-like creature called Malik. Hell speaks.
 
This view you have expressed actually contradicts the Quran ...Hell most certainly can be eternal ...

Al Nisa 4:168-169 'except the way of hell where they will therein dwell forever''

This is mentioned another two times...

'And whosoever disobeys Allah and his Messenger then verily for him is the fire of Hell ...he shall dwell therein forever' (al Jinn 72-73)

'Verily Allah has cursed the disbelievers and has prepared for them a flaming fire...wherein they will abide forever' (am Ahzaab 33:64)

Im on my phone otherwise I can post more from the Qur'an ...I've never heard anyone claim that Hell isn't eternal before ...I'd say the word 'forever' makes that quite clear and it is emphasised in many places ...

Al Baqarah mentions 'they will never get out of the fire'
 
I'm also confused about the stay in Hell, all my life I was taught eternal and now in recent times I've read its temporary but it might as well feel eternal.

I think some sects in Christianity follow the temporary doctrine.
 
Holy Quran Chapter 11 Verse 108 to 109. Allah Swt States:

خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ رَبُّكَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ فَعَّالٌ لِمَا يُرِيدُ {108} وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ سُعِدُوا فَفِي الْجَنَّةِ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ رَبُّكَ ۖ عَطَاءً غَيْرَ مَجْذُوذٍ {109}

Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases. But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off. (Chapter 11 Verse 108-109)


The present verses and that which precedes it throw light on an important question in which Islam differs from other religions, viz. the question of salvation.

According to the Hindu religion, both Heaven and Hell (i.e reward and punishment) possess a limited duration; and man, after undergoing the punishment, or reaping the reward of his deeds, is sent back to this world. Although some Hindu sects disagree among themselves regarding certain details, they are all agreed on the fundamental principle that both the punishments and rewards of the next world are temporary.

Of the Semitic Religions, Judaism denies Paradise to all non Jews while Jews are regarded as almost free from the torture of hell, for according to Judaism, no Jew will remain in Hell for more than 11 months, whereas non Jews will abide in it forever.

According to Christians, both Heaven and Hell are eternal, although some of their sects hold the belief that heaven at last will come to an end.


Islam, however fundamentally differs from all these religions. Heaven is eternal and everlasting, while Hell is temporary and of limited duration. The sayings of the Holy Prophet support this view. For instance, Ahmad bin Hanbal quotes a saying of the Holy Prophet Pbuh, as reported by Abdullah Bin Amr Bin al-As RA to the effect:


i.e “There will come on Hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none in it. That will happen after the inmates of Hell will have lived in it for centuries.” (Musnad Ahmad).

Thus according to this tradition, the word abiding used with regards to hell only means “remaining for long centuries”.

The same view was held by Ibn Masud RA and Abu Huraira RA. According to Ibn Taimiya, Umar, Ibn Abbas Anas and many commentators are of the same opinion. With reference to the word abiding used in the Qur’an in connection with Hell some eminent religious authorities think that it does mean “abiding forever”. They however, hold that though wicked disbelievers will deserve to be kept in Hell forever, Hell itself will one day cease to exist through God’s mercy, and when there is no Hell, there will naturally be no dwllers in it. Among the supporters of this view are Ibn Taimiya and Ibn al Qayyim (Fath).


The saying of the Holy Prophet quoted above on the authority of Abdullah bin Amr is also reported by Abu Hurairah RA, which fact adds to its weight and authenticity. In another tradition, Ibn Masud says : “THere will certainly come upon Hell a time when its shutters will strike against each other,” meaning that it will be untenanted. Jabir, Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abdullah bin Umar are also reported to have said a similar statement (Fath)


Abu Sa’id Khudri quotes a long hadith of the Holy Prophet which clearly shows that Hell is not eternal. According to this tradition the Holy Prophet is reported to have said that on the day of judgement God would give permission to different high-placed persons to intercede for sinners. At last common believers also will be given permission to intercede on their behalf. At first, they will intercede for those whom they know. Then with Gods permission, they will also intercede for other sinners who have some faith left in their hearts. Then only those will be left behind in Hell who had never done anything good. Then will God say : “The angels have interceded, and the Prophets and the Faithful have interceded and now it is My Turn, the Most Merciful of the merciful ones.” Then will God take a handful from the fire and take out of it even those who never had done any good deed (Bukhari and Muslim)


This hadith hints that finally a time will come when all men will be taken out of Hell, for when even those who never did any good deed are removed from the fire, who else will remain behind? Moreover, God’s handful is not a physical thing. The word implies indefinite comprehensiveness and nothing can be considered to have been left out of it. It also appears from this saying that sinners will be punished first for their sins and, when they have been washed of their sins, they will be rewarded for their good deed which, till then, will have been kept in reserve. The verse, whoso does good an atom’s weight will see it (99:8) also points to the same conclusion.

The different traditions quoted above show that many Companions of the Holy Prophet and their immediate successors held the view that Hell is not eternal and the Qur’an also supports this view. The following are some of the Qur’anic proofs in support of it:


1) Though the words, excepting what thy Lord may will, have been used with regard to both Heaven and Hell (Verse 108 and 109), in the case of Heaven the words, a gift that shall not be cut off, have been specifically added in verse 109 in order to show that there is no limitation upon the eternity of Heaven. In the case of Hell, on the other hand, they are followed by the clause, surely the Lord does bring about what He pleases (verse 108). These words are very emphatic and imply that the inmates of Hell must necessarily be taken out of Hell one day. If they are not to be taken out of Hell at all it was unnecessary to make the declaration so emphatic by using three words of emphasis.


Again, if Hell, like Heaven, was to be eternal, then its mention should also have been followed by some such words “as a punishment that shall not be cut off”. It is true that as about Hell, so with regard to Heaven, it has been said that its inmates will abide in it as long as God wills, but in the case of the dwellers of Heaven it has been clearly added that God’s eternal will is that they should never be deprived of this favour and that their stay in heaven should know no end. But no such declaration has been made with regard to Hell. This differentiation is so clear that even Ibn Hajr, whose view is opposed to Ibn Taimiyas’s with regard to Hell being not eternal, has been compelled to admit that whereas with regards to the inmates of Heaven God has made known His will which is that they shall abide therein for ever, with respect to the dwellers of Hell He has remained silent. But even the statement that God has remained silent with regard to the inmates of Hell is not correct, for by saying, Surely thy Lord does bring about what He wills, the Qur’an declares that in the case of the inmates of Hell God will carry out His wish which is implied in the words, excepting what thy Lord may will.


2) The second evidence of the limited duration of Hell is furnished by the words except those whom thy Lord show mercy and for this has He created them (11:120). It has been admitted by eminent authorities such as Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Dahhak, Qatada and Ikrima that the pronoun Dhalika in the above words refer to rahmah meaning that God has created men in order to show mercy to them (Kathir, Manthur, and Tahavi). Now, if it be supposed that some men will remain in the Hell forever and will never be taken out of it, then these wretched people cannot be said to have been shown any mercy.

3) Whereas elsewhere in the Qur’an one meets with such expressions about Heaven, as they will surely have a reward that will never end (41:9, 84:26, 95:7), no such expression has been used with regard to Hell, which points to a clear distinction between the duration of the rewards of Heaven and the punishment of Hell.


4) The Qur’anic expression My mercy encompasses all things (7:157) also shows that the punishment of Hell is only an intermediate condition and a transitory state and that even those whom God punishes will in the end become covered by His mercy and will be forgiven. The above expression represents God’s mercy as comprehending not only all human beings, but also all other things. The same idea is expressed in 40:8 , where it is said that God comprehends all things in His mercy and knowledge. If it be supposed that certain persons can remain out of the mercy of God by being subjected to everlasting punishment, it will have to be admitted that certain things can also escape the knowledge of God, for knowledge and mercy have been mentioned in the verse side by side. But it is absurd to suppose that anything can escape the knowledge of God; therefore it is equally absurd to believe that any thing will remain permanently deprived of God’s mercy.


5) The following verses of the Qur’an also support this view: I have created the Jinn and men only that they serve me (51:57) and Enter then among My garden (89:30,31). Now if all men in the end are to become God’s servants, for man cannot permanently be kept away from the object for which he has been created, and if all God’s servants will eventually enter Heaven and the falsity of the view that Hell is eternal becomes quite clear.


6) The sixth evidence of the limited character of Hell is to be found in the verse, Whoso does an atom’s weight of good will see it (99:8). Now a mere alleviation of punishment cannot be truly called the “seeing” of one’s good works. Hence, in order that men see their works in completed, i.e should meet with the reward of their good actions, it is necessary that they should first be punished for their evil deeds by way of reformation and should afterwards receive the reward of their good actions.


7) The verse, As for him who scales are light, Hell will be his mother (101:9,10), constitutes further strong evidence in support of the view that Hell is not eternal. In this verse Hell is compared to a mother and it is well known that the child does not remain in the mother’s womb for ever. It only remains there until the formation of its body and organs becomes complete. Similarly, those unfortunate persons who are cast into Hell will remain there until the time when the faculties which fit them for seeing the beautiful face of the Lord have become fully developed. This verse thus makes it clear that Hell is not eternal and that the word abiding in the verse under comment does not denote an unending time but only a long time, as is also clear from the verse, who will tarry therein for ages (78:24). ”



Note:

1. I have presented my argument from Quran and Hadith. In case you do not agree simply move on.

2. In case you do not see the verse look for the previous verse in the same Chapter because Bismillah being counted as verse 1 of every Surah would mean than every verse moves 1 point ahead.
 
Holy Quran Chapter 11 Verse 108 to 109. Allah Swt States:

خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ رَبُّكَ ۚ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ فَعَّالٌ لِمَا يُرِيدُ {108} وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ سُعِدُوا فَفِي الْجَنَّةِ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا مَا دَامَتِ السَّمَاوَاتُ وَالْأَرْضُ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ رَبُّكَ ۖ عَطَاءً غَيْرَ مَجْذُوذٍ {109}

Abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will. Surely, thy Lord does bring about what He pleases. But as for those who will prove fortunate, they shall be in Heaven; abiding therein so long as the heavens and the earth endure, excepting what thy Lord may will — a gift that shall not be cut off. (Chapter 11 Verse 108-109)


The present verses and that which precedes it throw light on an important question in which Islam differs from other religions, viz. the question of salvation.

According to the Hindu religion, both Heaven and Hell (i.e reward and punishment) possess a limited duration; and man, after undergoing the punishment, or reaping the reward of his deeds, is sent back to this world. Although some Hindu sects disagree among themselves regarding certain details, they are all agreed on the fundamental principle that both the punishments and rewards of the next world are temporary.

Of the Semitic Religions, Judaism denies Paradise to all non Jews while Jews are regarded as almost free from the torture of hell, for according to Judaism, no Jew will remain in Hell for more than 11 months, whereas non Jews will abide in it forever.

According to Christians, both Heaven and Hell are eternal, although some of their sects hold the belief that heaven at last will come to an end.


Islam, however fundamentally differs from all these religions. Heaven is eternal and everlasting, while Hell is temporary and of limited duration. The sayings of the Holy Prophet support this view. For instance, Ahmad bin Hanbal quotes a saying of the Holy Prophet Pbuh, as reported by Abdullah Bin Amr Bin al-As RA to the effect:


i.e “There will come on Hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none in it. That will happen after the inmates of Hell will have lived in it for centuries.” (Musnad Ahmad).

Thus according to this tradition, the word abiding used with regards to hell only means “remaining for long centuries”.

The same view was held by Ibn Masud RA and Abu Huraira RA. According to Ibn Taimiya, Umar, Ibn Abbas Anas and many commentators are of the same opinion. With reference to the word abiding used in the Qur’an in connection with Hell some eminent religious authorities think that it does mean “abiding forever”. They however, hold that though wicked disbelievers will deserve to be kept in Hell forever, Hell itself will one day cease to exist through God’s mercy, and when there is no Hell, there will naturally be no dwllers in it. Among the supporters of this view are Ibn Taimiya and Ibn al Qayyim (Fath).


The saying of the Holy Prophet quoted above on the authority of Abdullah bin Amr is also reported by Abu Hurairah RA, which fact adds to its weight and authenticity. In another tradition, Ibn Masud says : “THere will certainly come upon Hell a time when its shutters will strike against each other,” meaning that it will be untenanted. Jabir, Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abdullah bin Umar are also reported to have said a similar statement (Fath)


Abu Sa’id Khudri quotes a long hadith of the Holy Prophet which clearly shows that Hell is not eternal. According to this tradition the Holy Prophet is reported to have said that on the day of judgement God would give permission to different high-placed persons to intercede for sinners. At last common believers also will be given permission to intercede on their behalf. At first, they will intercede for those whom they know. Then with Gods permission, they will also intercede for other sinners who have some faith left in their hearts. Then only those will be left behind in Hell who had never done anything good. Then will God say : “The angels have interceded, and the Prophets and the Faithful have interceded and now it is My Turn, the Most Merciful of the merciful ones.” Then will God take a handful from the fire and take out of it even those who never had done any good deed (Bukhari and Muslim)


This hadith hints that finally a time will come when all men will be taken out of Hell, for when even those who never did any good deed are removed from the fire, who else will remain behind? Moreover, God’s handful is not a physical thing. The word implies indefinite comprehensiveness and nothing can be considered to have been left out of it. It also appears from this saying that sinners will be punished first for their sins and, when they have been washed of their sins, they will be rewarded for their good deed which, till then, will have been kept in reserve. The verse, whoso does good an atom’s weight will see it (99:8) also points to the same conclusion.

The different traditions quoted above show that many Companions of the Holy Prophet and their immediate successors held the view that Hell is not eternal and the Qur’an also supports this view. The following are some of the Qur’anic proofs in support of it:


1) Though the words, excepting what thy Lord may will, have been used with regard to both Heaven and Hell (Verse 108 and 109), in the case of Heaven the words, a gift that shall not be cut off, have been specifically added in verse 109 in order to show that there is no limitation upon the eternity of Heaven. In the case of Hell, on the other hand, they are followed by the clause, surely the Lord does bring about what He pleases (verse 108). These words are very emphatic and imply that the inmates of Hell must necessarily be taken out of Hell one day. If they are not to be taken out of Hell at all it was unnecessary to make the declaration so emphatic by using three words of emphasis.


Again, if Hell, like Heaven, was to be eternal, then its mention should also have been followed by some such words “as a punishment that shall not be cut off”. It is true that as about Hell, so with regard to Heaven, it has been said that its inmates will abide in it as long as God wills, but in the case of the dwellers of Heaven it has been clearly added that God’s eternal will is that they should never be deprived of this favour and that their stay in heaven should know no end. But no such declaration has been made with regard to Hell. This differentiation is so clear that even Ibn Hajr, whose view is opposed to Ibn Taimiyas’s with regard to Hell being not eternal, has been compelled to admit that whereas with regards to the inmates of Heaven God has made known His will which is that they shall abide therein for ever, with respect to the dwellers of Hell He has remained silent. But even the statement that God has remained silent with regard to the inmates of Hell is not correct, for by saying, Surely thy Lord does bring about what He wills, the Qur’an declares that in the case of the inmates of Hell God will carry out His wish which is implied in the words, excepting what thy Lord may will.


2) The second evidence of the limited duration of Hell is furnished by the words except those whom thy Lord show mercy and for this has He created them (11:120). It has been admitted by eminent authorities such as Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Dahhak, Qatada and Ikrima that the pronoun Dhalika in the above words refer to rahmah meaning that God has created men in order to show mercy to them (Kathir, Manthur, and Tahavi). Now, if it be supposed that some men will remain in the Hell forever and will never be taken out of it, then these wretched people cannot be said to have been shown any mercy.

3) Whereas elsewhere in the Qur’an one meets with such expressions about Heaven, as they will surely have a reward that will never end (41:9, 84:26, 95:7), no such expression has been used with regard to Hell, which points to a clear distinction between the duration of the rewards of Heaven and the punishment of Hell.


4) The Qur’anic expression My mercy encompasses all things (7:157) also shows that the punishment of Hell is only an intermediate condition and a transitory state and that even those whom God punishes will in the end become covered by His mercy and will be forgiven. The above expression represents God’s mercy as comprehending not only all human beings, but also all other things. The same idea is expressed in 40:8 , where it is said that God comprehends all things in His mercy and knowledge. If it be supposed that certain persons can remain out of the mercy of God by being subjected to everlasting punishment, it will have to be admitted that certain things can also escape the knowledge of God, for knowledge and mercy have been mentioned in the verse side by side. But it is absurd to suppose that anything can escape the knowledge of God; therefore it is equally absurd to believe that any thing will remain permanently deprived of God’s mercy.


5) The following verses of the Qur’an also support this view: I have created the Jinn and men only that they serve me (51:57) and Enter then among My garden (89:30,31). Now if all men in the end are to become God’s servants, for man cannot permanently be kept away from the object for which he has been created, and if all God’s servants will eventually enter Heaven and the falsity of the view that Hell is eternal becomes quite clear.


6) The sixth evidence of the limited character of Hell is to be found in the verse, Whoso does an atom’s weight of good will see it (99:8). Now a mere alleviation of punishment cannot be truly called the “seeing” of one’s good works. Hence, in order that men see their works in completed, i.e should meet with the reward of their good actions, it is necessary that they should first be punished for their evil deeds by way of reformation and should afterwards receive the reward of their good actions.


7) The verse, As for him who scales are light, Hell will be his mother (101:9,10), constitutes further strong evidence in support of the view that Hell is not eternal. In this verse Hell is compared to a mother and it is well known that the child does not remain in the mother’s womb for ever. It only remains there until the formation of its body and organs becomes complete. Similarly, those unfortunate persons who are cast into Hell will remain there until the time when the faculties which fit them for seeing the beautiful face of the Lord have become fully developed. This verse thus makes it clear that Hell is not eternal and that the word abiding in the verse under comment does not denote an unending time but only a long time, as is also clear from the verse, who will tarry therein for ages (78:24). ”



Note:

1. I have presented my argument from Quran and Hadith. In case you do not agree simply move on.

2. In case you do not see the verse look for the previous verse in the same Chapter because Bismillah being counted as verse 1 of every Surah would mean than every verse moves 1 point ahead.

Some serious manipulation going on bro...

'Of the Semitic Religions, Judaism denies Paradise to all non Jews while Jews are regarded as almost free from the torture of hell, for according to Judaism, no Jew will remain in Hell for more than 11 months, whereas non Jews will abide in it forever.'

What you have written above is actually all incorrect...firstly Jewish Hell is essentially purgatory which lasts for 12 months...Jews and non-Jews most certainly can make it to Paradise...where have you got this 'abide in it forever' from?...

Christianity and Islam both believe Hell is eternal...you conveniently ignored my posts where I listed verses from the Quran which speak about hell being eternal...

Some serious revisionism going on not only of Islam but also of other faiths...
 
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]

What do you mean by when you saying "heaven will come to an end" in some sects of Christianity?
 
Some serious manipulation going on bro...

'Of the Semitic Religions, Judaism denies Paradise to all non Jews while Jews are regarded as almost free from the torture of hell, for according to Judaism, no Jew will remain in Hell for more than 11 months, whereas non Jews will abide in it forever.'

What you have written above is actually all incorrect...firstly Jewish Hell is essentially purgatory which lasts for 12 months...Jews and non-Jews most certainly can make it to Paradise...where have you got this 'abide in it forever' from?...

Christianity and Islam both believe Hell is eternal...you conveniently ignored my posts where I listed verses from the Quran which speak about hell being eternal...

Some serious revisionism going on not only of Islam but also of other faiths...



Read something about comparative religions. I am not a book of religious scripture to feed you on everything.

Jews got divided into 72 sects. Do I need to read a book here for you on views of 72 sects ?


What you have said is view of one sect of Jews.



And check your notifications. Wherever you have quoted me or mentioned me I have replied you. If you do not quote me than I am not compelled to reply you, even otherwise I am not. But I have replied you whenever you mentioned me or quoted me.
 
Some serious manipulation going on bro...

'Of the Semitic Religions, Judaism denies Paradise to all non Jews while Jews are regarded as almost free from the torture of hell, for according to Judaism, no Jew will remain in Hell for more than 11 months, whereas non Jews will abide in it forever.'

What you have written above is actually all incorrect...firstly Jewish Hell is essentially purgatory which lasts for 12 months...Jews and non-Jews most certainly can make it to Paradise...where have you got this 'abide in it forever' from?...

Christianity and Islam both believe Hell is eternal...you conveniently ignored my posts where I listed verses from the Quran which speak about hell being eternal...

Some serious revisionism going on not only of Islam but also of other faiths...

But it can be argued that you've made a manipulation as well in order to justify whatever it is you're saying much like what everyone else does but we all think we're right :yk3 Btw you don't believe in the concept of hell or heaven right? what's the source of your fascination with religion? or is it just providing arguments to reinforce your own views given that you're no longer a believer in the one god
 
Religion religion religion so much religion in every thread post,remarkable how this world is our temporary "state" and next one could be real,Karma,Helll and Hell nothing is there,what happens to animals do they get heaven or hell too?Do they get rebirth..what is there karma,what is the position of new born being killed by mother when she gets an abortion?????

Was abortion even there when religions came into place.What happens to plants,we know they have life as well sadly they don't get to make good karma.
 
Dude 72 sects?...You are gonna ask me to read up on comparative religion when you are gonna use that argument ...

As it stands there are only 3 relevant strands conservative, orthodox and reformist ...

Where have you got that abide in forever thing from?...or anything about eternal hell?...
 
Well if there is a manipulation then someone is free to provide a refutation...

I have no dog in this race...and as for my fascination ...just like things like politics it's fun to discuss sometimes ...
 
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]

What do you mean by when you saying "heaven will come to an end" in some sects of Christianity?

Some sects of Christianity believe that Heaven is a temporary stage for the righteous after the death, before the resurrection of the dead and the saints return to the New Earth and the cycle continues.
 
Even if one is pious, he should still ask for forgiveness. Prophet Mohammad pbuh used to always ask Allah swt for forgiveness. Heaven isn't guaranteed to anyone. It's up to Allah swt. We should fear Hell. We should try our best to avoid Allah swt's punishment.
 
Even if one is pious, he should still ask for forgiveness. Prophet Mohammad pbuh used to always ask Allah swt for forgiveness.] Heaven isn't guaranteed to anyone. It's up to Allah swt. We should fear Hell. We should try our best to avoid Allah swt's punishment.


Once one of Ummahatul Momineen RA asked Prophet Pbuh :
Oh Messenger of Allah: You stand in the night and pray so much that your feet become swollen, why do you do this when Allah has promised you to forgive your shortcomings and has promised you the highest place in Paradise ?
He Pbuh said : Than Shall I not be a Thankful Servant of Allah almighty ?

and it is narrated that the holy prophet pbuh used to weep and cry as if a pot was boiling on the stove. For what ? For the forgiveness of people like me and you. For the forgiveness of people who are living a life of weakness and so that he could pray that other people who were not muslims could be guided towards the one Truthful God. This is what He Pbuh prayed for.


This is our beloved Rehmatul lil Aalameen, Khataam an Nabee-een, Sarwar e Dou Jahaan, Mohsin e Insaaniat Pbuh.


Bhej Darood Uss Mohsin Pbuh per tuu din mein sou sou baar
Pak Mohammad Mustafa Pbuh hein Nabeeoun k Sardaar


Allah Huma Sallay Alla Mohammadin Wa Alla Aal e Mohammadin Wabarik Wassalim Inna ka Hameed um Majeed
 
Thanks MRSN and Cricketfanfirst :)

On the notion of 72 sects this actually comes from a hadith...Jews themselves certainly don't view themselves as being formed of 72 sects...the same hadith mentions 73 sects in Islam...it's worth adding that that hadith says only one of those sects in Islam will make it to heaven...

There just really isn't any evidence of 72 sects...there is no information beyond this Hadith...the Pharisees were the Jews around at the time of the Prophet...the Jews at the time of Muhammad were actually quite unified...the Pharisees followed what is known as the Babylonian Talmud...and these are the descendents of Orthodox Jews today...

In short there were not 72 sects at the time of the Prophet and there isnt evidence of 72 prior...it's said there were sects prior to this period but they all extinct now...and were extinct prior to the time of the Prophet...

There was a sect that rose up and that was the Karaites in the 9th century...they rejected the Talmud and were actually quite the opposition to the Pharisees...but their influence is minimal today...

Today you can divide the Jews into Orthodox, Conservative and Reform...

Reform grew out of Orthodoxy...and they basically don't believe that the Torah was written by God...

Conservatives are kind of in betweens...they believe in that the Torah is the word of God but believe laws should be adapted to the times...

That's in the US and there is less diversity in Israel...

More than half of the Jews in Israel actually identify as secular...and then you have Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox Jews...the Ultra Orthodox as the Haredi Jews who refuse to serve in the army etc...

As for what I wrote about Hell in Judaism...it's essentially the Orthodox view of Hell that I raised...because that has been the prominent school throughout Jewish history and is also the only official school in Israel...

Reform Jews I left out because they essentially don't believe in the Torah...some of them dont even believe in an afterlife or believe in Hell...

To my understanding the Conservatives have the same understanding of Hell as the Orthodox school...

If there are 72 sects as has been mentioned they certainly don't exist today...and probably never did...
 
Religion religion religion so much religion in every thread post,remarkable how this world is our temporary "state" and next one could be real,Karma,Helll and Hell nothing is there,what happens to animals do they get heaven or hell too?Do they get rebirth..what is there karma,what is the position of new born being killed by mother when she gets an abortion?????

Was abortion even there when religions came into place.What happens to plants,we know they have life as well sadly they don't get to make good karma.

You will get:

-God works in mysterious ways
-Ask a scholar
 
This kind of comes from a discussion in another thread...

A religion believes itself to be correct so what therefore is the punishment for disbelief?...the usual answer is Hell...but things aren't that straightforward...

I can only only really speak with knowledge on the Abrahamic religions...so for the Hindus or Sikhs or any other religious guys on the forum feel free to add what your faith says on the subject...

There are of course differences of opinion on the faiths mentioned so i'm going with the most mainstream ideas...

Judaism
Judaism doesn't seem to concern itself with the Afterlife too much...it's significantly more focus on the present...If you're a disbeliever you can actually get into Jewish heaven...most people end up in purgatory for a year as a period of cleansing before they enter heaven...all but the most wicked are given that right...and interestingly belief and actions aren't intertwined...one can be a good person who does good deeds without being a believer...interestingly because Muslims follow the Noahide rules they go to heaven...the most evil of people aren't given eternal torment rather they cease to exist...

Christianity
This is where fire and brimstone comes in and also the notion of eternal too...while Judaism and Islam are similar in that they reject the Trinity...Islam and Christianity are very similar in using Heaven and Hell as a reward and punishment system as means for motivation...language such as 'fiery torment', 'everlasting destruction', 'eternal fire', 'torment day and night' etc...

That said there is so much diversity in Christian interpretation so it is difficult to give a general view...

You got the Pope Francis types who say atheists will go to Heaven...and that good deeds and belief can be separated...ie one can be a good person without being a Christian...the Roman Catholic Church believes non Christians can be 'saved'...That said traditionally that hasn't been the case and Catholicism was exclusivist and believed rejection of Christ was a ticket to the eternal damnation mentioned above...

Evangelicals meanwhile are exclusivist and believe salvation can only be attained through belief ...anyone who is not Christian is going to Hell...

Islam...

Islam follows with the eternal hell ideas and also the notion of fire...mainstream belief also points to Heaven and Hell exclusivism...belief and deeds are linked...ie without belief there can be no such thing as a good deed...therefore much like the Evangelicals disbelief is a guarantee for eternal damnation...

Now you're making things up or failed to research the area of 'good' or 'bad' deeds. Which is it?
 
Now you're making things up or failed to research the area of 'good' or 'bad' deeds. Which is it?

Morality and belief are intertwined...a 'good' person is someone who believes in Allah and whos actions are done to please Allah...so two people can do the same acts but the Muslims will be judged as good...whilst the non-Muslims won't be recognised as good as the prerequisite for having a good deed is belief itself...

I remember your Mother Teresa thread from back in the day...the fact that she rejected Allah means her deeds can't be deemed 'good'...the prerequisite for getting to Heaven is belief and rejection of Allah is the most grievous of sins...

Christians for most of their history have had the same exclusivist attitude where only belief in Christ can make a person good...your acts are judged by their intention and if the intention isn't to please God then they are null and void...
 
Morality and belief are intertwined...a 'good' person is someone who believes in Allah and whos actions are done to please Allah...so two people can do the same acts but the Muslims will be judged as good...whilst the non-Muslims won't be recognised as good as the prerequisite for having a good deed is belief itself...

I remember your Mother Teresa thread from back in the day...the fact that she rejected Allah means her deeds can't be deemed 'good'...the prerequisite for getting to Heaven is belief and rejection of Allah is the most grievous of sins...

Christians for most of their history have had the same exclusivist attitude where only belief in Christ can make a person good...your acts are judged by their intention and if the intention isn't to please God then they are null and void...

In Islam allah creates you and what you do, so good deeds do not mean anything in the grand scheme of things, if you think about it, if an atheist objects that good deeds should guarantee him salvation, yet they forgets that the deed in itself is a creation of Allah, the atheist merely acquired it, it does not belong to him since it is the property of Allah, Allah can render it worthless.
 
Morality and belief are intertwined...a 'good' person is someone who believes in Allah and whos actions are done to please Allah...so two people can do the same acts but the Muslims will be judged as good...whilst the non-Muslims won't be recognised as good as the prerequisite for having a good deed is belief itself...

I remember your Mother Teresa thread from back in the day...the fact that she rejected Allah means her deeds can't be deemed 'good'...the prerequisite for getting to Heaven is belief and rejection of Allah is the most grievous of sins...

Christians for most of their history have had the same exclusivist attitude where only belief in Christ can make a person good...your acts are judged by their intention and if the intention isn't to please God then they are null and void...

There are groups and individuals who have never been given the message of Islam. They are not at fault and will be judged according to their good deeds which will determine if they enter heaven or not. It's also fair to point out, those non-believers who do good deeds will have their reward in this life. So it's not as simple as you wrote it to be.

As for the topic.

Nobody knows what hell or heaven really looks like. For a person who has rejected God to find out he/she was wrong is the biggest punishment in the hereafter, similarly the biggest reward for a believer is to meet their Lord. Oher punishments/rewards are down to various interpretations.
 
Once one of Ummahatul Momineen RA asked Prophet Pbuh :
Oh Messenger of Allah: You stand in the night and pray so much that your feet become swollen, why do you do this when Allah has promised you to forgive your shortcomings and has promised you the highest place in Paradise ?
He Pbuh said : Than Shall I not be a Thankful Servant of Allah almighty ?

and it is narrated that the holy prophet pbuh used to weep and cry as if a pot was boiling on the stove. For what ? For the forgiveness of people like me and you. For the forgiveness of people who are living a life of weakness and so that he could pray that other people who were not muslims could be guided towards the one Truthful God. This is what He Pbuh prayed for.


This is our beloved Rehmatul lil Aalameen, Khataam an Nabee-een, Sarwar e Dou Jahaan, Mohsin e Insaaniat Pbuh.


Bhej Darood Uss Mohsin Pbuh per tuu din mein sou sou baar
Pak Mohammad Mustafa Pbuh hein Nabeeoun k Sardaar


Allah Huma Sallay Alla Mohammadin Wa Alla Aal e Mohammadin Wabarik Wassalim Inna ka Hameed um Majeed


I really couldn't care less who calls themselves Muslim or not...but I do feel it's fair that in a discussion you state the perspective you are arguing from...

The argument I have brought forth is a mainstream one...ie one that say the majority of Muslims adopt eg the Sunni position...

If you are going to argue from the Ahmadiyya position you should reveal that fact because naturally that affects your methodology and conclusions...

I remember there used to be a Quranist on here who would state what Islam said without specifying their belief system and the impact of that belief system on their conclusions...and that's cheeky tbf...
 
I really couldn't care less who calls themselves Muslim or not...but I do feel it's fair that in a discussion you state the perspective you are arguing from...

The argument I have brought forth is a mainstream one...ie one that say the majority of Muslims adopt eg the Sunni position...

If you are going to argue from the Ahmadiyya position you should reveal that fact because naturally that affects your methodology and conclusions...

I remember there used to be a Quranist on here who would state what Islam said without specifying their belief system and the impact of that belief system on their conclusions...and that's cheeky tbf...


Do not do indulge in un-necessary debate with me.

If you think the verses I have stated from Quran & the Ahadees I have stated from Ahadees books are production of 19th or 20th century than challenge me.


And as an Athiest do not bother that much. I am not a heaven or hell keeper who will be standing at doors filtering who should enter which place. If you do not agree move on. I don't like to indulge in un-necessary debates. If you do not agree move on. And I am not here to get cerificates of muslimness or my eemaan neither I care about what Worldly Gods say about me. I am only bothered by Actual God Allah SWT and my Eemaan will be accountable to HIM only.


Aethiests are at a major War with one group. Thankfully from both sides it's a peaceful War worldwide and from our side it will remain a peaceful war forever InshaAllah because Islam teaches us Peace and only Peace. A quick google search would help you to find who are the ones challenging Atheism the most. Just google Fastest growing Sect of Islam.
 
Islam is very clear on the issue that Hell is for eternity as well as Paradise , anyone who says something different is innovator.
 
Islam is very clear on the issue that Hell is for eternity as well as Paradise , anyone who says something different is innovator.


“There will come on Hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none in it. That will happen after the inmates of Hell will have lived in it for centuries.” (Musnad Ahmad).
 
Religion religion religion so much religion in every thread post,remarkable how this world is our temporary "state" and next one could be real,Karma,Helll and Hell nothing is there,what happens to animals do they get heaven or hell too?Do they get rebirth..what is there karma,what is the position of new born being killed by mother when she gets an abortion?????

Was abortion even there when religions came into place.What happens to plants,we know they have life as well sadly they don't get to make good karma.

You are asking Islamic point of view ?
 
“There will come on Hell a day when its shutters will strike against each other and there will be none in it. That will happen after the inmates of Hell will have lived in it for centuries.” (Musnad Ahmad).

What is the hadeeth number , Musnad E hanbal has more than 25, 000 hadeeth , just because it is in that book that does not mean it is authentic .

You previously gave example from kanzul Ummal . That is not authentic hadeeth book at all.
 
What is the hadeeth number , Musnad E hanbal has more than 25, 000 hadeeth , just because it is in that book that does not mean it is authentic .

You previously gave example from kanzul Ummal . That is not authentic hadeeth book at all.


Abu Sa’id Khudri quotes a long hadith of the Holy Prophet which clearly shows that Hell is not eternal. According to this tradition the Holy Prophet is reported to have said that on the day of judgement God would give permission to different high-placed persons to intercede for sinners. At last common believers also will be given permission to intercede on their behalf. At first, they will intercede for those whom they know. Then with Gods permission, they will also intercede for other sinners who have some faith left in their hearts. Then only those will be left behind in Hell who had never done anything good. Then will God say : “The angels have interceded, and the Prophets and the Faithful have interceded and now it is My Turn, the Most Merciful of the merciful ones.” Then will God take a handful from the fire and take out of it even those who never had done any good deed (Bukhari and Muslim)
 
[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] I could not understand what is your issue with 72 sect hadeeth ?
 
Abu Sa’id Khudri quotes a long hadith of the Holy Prophet which clearly shows that Hell is not eternal. According to this tradition the Holy Prophet is reported to have said that on the day of judgement God would give permission to different high-placed persons to intercede for sinners. At last common believers also will be given permission to intercede on their behalf. At first, they will intercede for those whom they know. Then with Gods permission, they will also intercede for other sinners who have some faith left in their hearts. Then only those will be left behind in Hell who had never done anything good. Then will God say : “The angels have interceded, and the Prophets and the Faithful have interceded and now it is My Turn, the Most Merciful of the merciful ones.” Then will God take a handful from the fire and take out of it even those who never had done any good deed (Bukhari and Muslim)

brother , if you do not give me the number , how will i see it , you need to read the whole hadeeth , before I can comment .
 
[MENTION=138980]TalentSpotterPk[/MENTION]

Nevertheless , even if you cannot find its not a problem. As far as I remember , there is such kind of Hadeeth , but it also mentions that people who have iman will be taken out , and those whom the Quran prevents will remain in hell fire. By Quran means those who were disbelievers.
 
brother , if you do not give me the number , how will i see it , you need to read the whole hadeeth , before I can comment .


First of all you need to tell me that all the Ahadees of Kanzul Ummal are rejected by you ? If yes why ?

If any Hadith is in line with quranic injunctions and is in any hadith book even Shia ahadees books than on what basis it will be rejected ? ?

Do you know that the most clear Prophecy about ISIS is in Shia ahadees book and has been fulfilled in letter and spirit ? Now the fulfilment of Prophecy exactly is a proof that it is a True Authentic Hadith. But any Sunni Mullah will stand up and say No the Hadith is not Authentic not true.


Also do me a favour. In Quran there are more than 4 verses which state that Heaven is eternal. Post one verse which is only talking about timeline of Hell and says that Hell is eternal ?


The easiest thing in life is to say x y z Hadith is not Sahi hadith because it is not Authentic and more easy thing is to call all others innovators who do not hold an opinion or belief which you have. This is called Individual bias. On this forum even if you post Ghamdi's videos on different subjects where Ghamdi quotes quranic verses and Ahadees to give his Point of view people jump in threads and say who is he ? He doesn't know Islam, he is biggest promotor of Biddah and is an Innovator.


In religious matters if you do not agree with others point of view simply say I DO NOT AGREE. In the end neither we ordinary humans, nor the MULLAH who has caused immense desrruction to beautiful face of Islam will be the JUDGE

ALLAH WILL BE THE JUDGE


So present your opinion, point of view, understanding or Belief and just move on.


Anybody holding a different opinion doesn't mean k KhudaNakhoasta Naoozbillah " ISLAM KHATRAY MEIN PERH GAYA HAI "
 
First of all you need to tell me that all the Ahadees of Kanzul Ummal are rejected by you ? If yes why ?

If any Hadith is in line with quranic injunctions and is in any hadith book even Shia ahadees books than on what basis it will be rejected ? ?

Do you know that the most clear Prophecy about ISIS is in Shia ahadees book and has been fulfilled in letter and spirit ? Now the fulfilment of Prophecy exactly is a proof that it is a True Authentic Hadith. But any Sunni Mullah will stand up and say No the Hadith is not Authentic not true.


Also do me a favour. In Quran there are more than 4 verses which state that Heaven is eternal. Post one verse which is only talking about timeline of Hell and says that Hell is eternal ?


The easiest thing in life is to say x y z Hadith is not Sahi hadith because it is not Authentic and more easy thing is to call all others innovators who do not hold an opinion or belief which you have. This is called Individual bias. On this forum even if you post Ghamdi's videos on different subjects where Ghamdi quotes quranic verses and Ahadees to give his Point of view people jump in threads and say who is he ? He doesn't know Islam, he is biggest promotor of Biddah and is an Innovator.


In religious matters if you do not agree with others point of view simply say I DO NOT AGREE. In the end neither we ordinary humans, nor the MULLAH who has caused immense desrruction to beautiful face of Islam will be the JUDGE

ALLAH WILL BE THE JUDGE


So present your opinion, point of view, understanding or Belief and just move on.


Anybody holding a different opinion doesn't mean k KhudaNakhoasta Naoozbillah " ISLAM KHATRAY MEIN PERH GAYA HAI "

On what basis hadeeth are rejected ? What do you think ?

What other posters say about ghamdi or any other scholar is not my concern. I am not a fan of Ghamdi or any one . If Ghamdi says right I will accept him , if he does not I reject him , but that does not mean that I will not consider him as a scholar or Insult him.

Scholars can make mistake. Dr Naik tried to prove that yazeed is in Paradise , it was horrible mistake by him, but that does not mean I will multiply his good things by zero.

Allah is the judge , and Quran is book of Allah . Allah has mentioned


“Verily, Allaah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire (Hell)

Wherein they will abide for ever”


( 33:64 )

The above verse is verse of Quran , not a fatwa of some Mullah.
 
[MENTION=133972]shaykh[/MENTION] I could not understand what is your issue with 72 sect hadeeth ?

The manner of its use for this topic...

Talentspotter suggested that Jews believe that Hell is eternal and that non-Jews will dwell in Hell forever...

I asked for a source...and basically said that this isn't a correct understanding...much like the notion that Islamic Hell is temporary is a revisionist understanding...

Talentspotters response was that I was only revealing the ideas of one 'sect' and that there are 72 Jewish sects and that I had presented only one sects interpretation...

It's a poor line of argument on his part because there are certainly not many sects today nor have their been for the majority of Jewish history...at best one can argue that there are sects that have become extinct and this was way before the Prophets time...but there is actually quite a lot of uniformity in the Jewish faith...

But I can understand the slant of his argument now that i know he's Ahmadi...this is why there is very little interest in presenting a mainstream argument...his arguments are akin to me presenting the reform Judaism position which would then suggest that Hell doesnt even exist :) ...
 
On what basis hadeeth are rejected ? What do you think ?

What other posters say about ghamdi or any other scholar is not my concern. I am not a fan of Ghamdi or any one . If Ghamdi says right I will accept him , if he does not I reject him , but that does not mean that I will not consider him as a scholar or Insult him.

Scholars can make mistake. Dr Naik tried to prove that yazeed is in Paradise , it was horrible mistake by him, but that does not mean I will multiply his good things by zero.

Allah is the judge , and Quran is book of Allah . Allah has mentioned


“Verily, Allaah has cursed the disbelievers, and has prepared for them a flaming Fire (Hell)

Wherein they will abide for ever”


( 33:64 )

The above verse is verse of Quran , not a fatwa of some Mullah.


Justcrazy brother, I will not indulge in further behus beraey behus with you or anyone on this topic.


1. I asked you for a single verse only adressing eternity of Hell. Like the 4 verses I have pointed out in my post which skipped your eyes where eternity of Heaven is exclusively addressed.

2. For the verse you have quoted again read what Mohammad Asad famous translator of Quran has wrote. Check his faith or sect if you wish


" [On that Day,] verily, hell will lie in wait [for those who deny the truth] – a goal for all who are wont to transgress the bounds of what is right! In it shall they remain for a long time. S. 78:21-23 Asad


The late Muslim scholar and translator Muhammad Asad noted that the Arabic word for "long time" does not mean forever:


I.e., not forever, since the term huqb or hiqbah (of which ahqab is the plural) denotes no more than "a period of time" or "a long time" (Jawhari) - according to some authorities, "eighty years", according to others, "a year" or simply "years" (Asas, Qamus, Lisan al-Arab, etc.).

But however one defines this term, it is obvious that it signifies a limited period of time, and not eternity: and this is in tune with many indications in the Qur'an to the effect that the suffering described as "hell" is not eternal (see note 114 on the last paragraph of 6:128), as well as with several authentic sayings of the Prophet (e.g., the one quoted in note 10 on 40:12). (The Message of the Qur’an; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)
Here, also, is what he wrote regarding Q. 6:128:
114 I.e., unless He graces them with His mercy (see verse 12 of this surah, and the corresponding note). Some of the great Muslim theologians conclude from the above and from the similar phrase occurring in 11 : 107 (as well as from several well-authenticated sayings of the Prophet) that - contrary to the bliss of paradise, which will be of unlimited duration - the suffering of the sinners in the life to come will be limited by God's mercy.


Now read this Sahi Bukhari Hadees with broad widened eyes



If still you deny it, I have ZERO ISSUE
 

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Justcrazy brother, I will not indulge in further behus beraey behus with you or anyone on this topic.


1. I asked you for a single verse only adressing eternity of Hell. Like the 4 verses I have pointed out in my post which skipped your eyes where eternity of Heaven is exclusively addressed.

2. For the verse you have quoted again read what Mohammad Asad famous translator of Quran has wrote. Check his faith or sect if you wish


" [On that Day,] verily, hell will lie in wait [for those who deny the truth] – a goal for all who are wont to transgress the bounds of what is right! In it shall they remain for a long time. S. 78:21-23 Asad


The late Muslim scholar and translator Muhammad Asad noted that the Arabic word for "long time" does not mean forever:


I.e., not forever, since the term huqb or hiqbah (of which ahqab is the plural) denotes no more than "a period of time" or "a long time" (Jawhari) - according to some authorities, "eighty years", according to others, "a year" or simply "years" (Asas, Qamus, Lisan al-Arab, etc.).

But however one defines this term, it is obvious that it signifies a limited period of time, and not eternity: and this is in tune with many indications in the Qur'an to the effect that the suffering described as "hell" is not eternal (see note 114 on the last paragraph of 6:128), as well as with several authentic sayings of the Prophet (e.g., the one quoted in note 10 on 40:12). (The Message of the Qur’an; source; bold and underline emphasis ours)
Here, also, is what he wrote regarding Q. 6:128:
114 I.e., unless He graces them with His mercy (see verse 12 of this surah, and the corresponding note). Some of the great Muslim theologians conclude from the above and from the similar phrase occurring in 11 : 107 (as well as from several well-authenticated sayings of the Prophet) that - contrary to the bliss of paradise, which will be of unlimited duration - the suffering of the sinners in the life to come will be limited by God's mercy.


Now read this Sahi Bukhari Hadees with broad widened eyes



If still you deny it, I have ZERO ISSUE

Others who read this hadeeth will be shocked at the conclusions you have drawn. That hadeeth refers to Muslims who have sinned.

Allah swt in Quran clearly says that he does not forgive shirk . If someone does shirk its not forgiven untill he repents before death.

The sinners who have one atom of weight of Iman will one day escape hell fire , no one denies that.

Word " أَبَد*ا " means forever.
 
Others who read this hadeeth will be shocked at the conclusions you have drawn. That hadeeth refers to Muslims who have sinned.

Allah swt in Quran clearly says that he does not forgive shirk . If someone does shirk its not forgiven untill he repents before death.

The sinners who have one atom of weight of Iman will one day escape hell fire , no one denies that.

Word " أَبَد*ا " means forever.


I am extremely delighted that you are rejecting Muhammad Asad the translator of your own faith MashaAllah.

I am also extremely delighted that you are rejecting Ahadees one after the other which don't suit your belief be it be Bukhari or Musnad or Muslim Hadith.

At no place in the hadith it is stated that Hell will be finished only for believers. AT NO PLACE


I am delighted at you rejecting Muhammad Asad's interpretation aswell, delighted that you are rejecting Jawhari aswell.

I am pleased that you are also rejecting Lisan al Arab which is considered Oxford dictionary of Arabic.


This is absolutely Brilliant stuff.



Now whenever anybody has any query about any Sahi hadith or Shia muslims ahadith collection I will refer them to you for giving Authenticity certificates to Ahadees aswell as re-explain and re-define those Ahadees as per your great mind.


I don't want any more explanation from you wrt my posts. I just want one last Answer.

I repeat

The most precise Prophecy pertaining to ISIS which has been fulfilled in letter and spirit is mentioned in Shia ahadees books. Since the Prophecy has been fulfilled is the Hadith true and authentic or since the hadith isn't mentioned in Siha e Satta Ahadees books hence the hadith is false and is rejected ?
 
I am extremely delighted that you are rejecting Muhammad Asad the translator of your own faith MashaAllah.

I am also extremely delighted that you are rejecting Ahadees one after the other which don't suit your belief be it be Bukhari or Musnad or Muslim Hadith.

At no place in the hadith it is stated that Hell will be finished only for believers. AT NO PLACE


I am delighted at you rejecting Muhammad Asad's interpretation aswell, delighted that you are rejecting Jawhari aswell.

I am pleased that you are also rejecting Lisan al Arab which is considered Oxford dictionary of Arabic.


This is absolutely Brilliant stuff.



Now whenever anybody has any query about any Sahi hadith or Shia muslims ahadith collection I will refer them to you for giving Authenticity certificates to Ahadees aswell as re-explain and re-define those Ahadees as per your great mind.


I don't want any more explanation from you wrt my posts. I just want one last Answer.

I repeat

The most precise Prophecy pertaining to ISIS which has been fulfilled in letter and spirit is mentioned in Shia ahadees books. Since the Prophecy has been fulfilled is the Hadith true and authentic or since the hadith isn't mentioned in Siha e Satta Ahadees books hence the hadith is false and is rejected ?

I have no issues with shias .

I have rejected no authentic hadeeth . I only asked for reference for Musnad E Ahmed , since there are more than 25 000 hadeeth in that.

If the authenticity of hadeeth is not verified , then Islam will be come a joke.

I never said I will check the authenticity myself , I will tell the reasons right here on this forum , why the hadeeth is weak ( if it is ) .


The word abada means forever in dictionary. Long time has a different word in Arabic. You can check online yourself.
I checked it just now to confirm
 
I have no issues with shias .

I have rejected no authentic hadeeth . I only asked for reference for Musnad E Ahmed , since there are more than 25 000 hadeeth in that.

If the authenticity of hadeeth is not verified , then Islam will be come a joke.

I never said I will check the authenticity myself , I will tell the reasons right here on this forum , why the hadeeth is weak ( if it is ) .


The word abada means forever in dictionary. Long time has a different word in Arabic. You can check online yourself.
I checked it just now to confirm


If Hell is eternal which is your claim than what is written in 78:23 ?
 
How is Bukhari's Hadith weak ?

Tell me about Hadith pertaining to ISIS which is not in Saha e Satta. Is the hadith authentic ?
 
Naoozbillah Hazur Pbuh did not know that Hell is not eternal and Mullah knows it.

Rejecting Sahi Bukhari ahadees.


Go and read Sahi Bukhari's another Hadith

Volume 9 Book 93 and Hadith number 532. Call that as Non Authentic aswell.

Go read what Ibn e Abbass RA and Ikrima have written about 11:120 verse of Holy Quran.

Denying stance of Ibn e Abass RA, Ikrama, Qatada, Ibn Taimiya , Ibn al Qayyim, Jabir, Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abdullah bin Umar that Hell won't be eternal to endorse stance of those whom He Pbuh called ULEMA E SOO ie Worst Creatures on Earth


Good Luck :-)
 
Naoozbillah Hazur Pbuh did not know that Hell is not eternal and Mullah knows it.

Rejecting Sahi Bukhari ahadees.


Go and read Sahi Bukhari's another Hadith

Volume 9 Book 93 and Hadith number 532. Call that as Non Authentic aswell.

Go read what Ibn e Abbass RA and Ikrima have written about 11:120 verse of Holy Quran.

Denying stance of Ibn e Abass RA, Ikrama, Qatada, Ibn Taimiya , Ibn al Qayyim, Jabir, Abu Sa’id Khudri and Abdullah bin Umar that Hell won't be eternal to endorse stance of those whom He Pbuh called ULEMA E SOO ie Worst Creatures on Earth


Good Luck :-)

I read the full hadeeth it is long. It no where says hell will cease to exist .

It speaks about intercession , I have not denied that , people with Iman will get out of hell some day.
 
What will God do after he puts people in Heaven and Hell? That's the end of mankind.

Will he proceed to create another world and play games with some other species?

Hopefully the script will be more fair that time, rather than forcing all humanity to suffer because because of His fight with the Devil, maybe He should ask the poor souls whether they actually want to be part of His game or not.
 
What will God do after he puts people in Heaven and Hell? That's the end of mankind.

Will he proceed to create another world and play games with some other species?

Hopefully the script will be more fair that time, rather than forcing all humanity to suffer because because of His fight with the Devil, maybe He should ask the poor souls whether they actually want to be part of His game or not.
There is a strong possibility that there are other worlds already . Those are already in Paradise and hell.
 
It is likely that our universe is part of multiverse.

I know about this conjecture.

I wanted some details around "strong" possibilities.
and what makes us believe that "Those are already in Paradise and hell."
 
Even though I'm a Muslim, I do think it's quite unfair that good non Muslims will go to hell forever just because they were disbelievers. I sincerely hope that every single good person regardless of their religion goes to heaven.
 
The Purpose of Life
A Brief Explanation

In the Name of Allah, The All Merciful, The Most Merciful

The questions of why we are here, where we have come from, and where we are going are relevant to all of humanity. Indeed the question of where we are going is addressed by Allah, in the Noble Qurʾān, in the following verses:

“And he [Muḥammad, may Allah’s prayers and peace be upon him] is not stingy with the revelation, and it [the Qurʾān] is not the speech of the accursed Satan. So where, then, are you going? Indeed it [the Qurʾān] is only a reminder for all of creation. For whoever wants to, from amongst you, let him be upright, and you do not will except that Allah wills, the Lord of all creation.” [Sūrah at-Takwīr 81:24-29]

These verses are primarily addressed to the disbelievers of Makkah. Where are they going? Are they going to accept salvation and the Message or are they going to reject it and become lost for all eternity?

This leads us to the next verse where Allah states very clearly why He created us:

"And I have not created the jinn and the humans except that they should worship Me." [Sūrah adh-Dhāriyāt 51:56]

This is the purpose of our existence, but what does worshipping Allah mean? The great Companion of the Messenger of Allah may Allah's prayers and peace be upon him, Ibn ʿAbbās, may Allah be pleased with him, states in his commentary on the Qurʾān that Allah has not created us except that we should worship Him as the only god in existence. This is called Tawḥīd in Arabic. Allah has said:

"Know that there is no god but Allah, and seek forgiveness for your sins." [Surah Muḥammad 47:19]

Worshipping Allah also means having a direct relationship with Him. Allah is constantly calling humanity to Him, offering them guidance and forgiveness of their sins:

"O humanity! Worship your Lord Who created you and those who came before you so that you may achieve Taqwa." [Sūrah al-Baqarah 2:21]

‘Their messengers said: “Is there doubt in Allah, the Originator of the Heavens and the Earth?” He calls on you in order to forgive you your sins, and he gives you respite until an appointed time.’ [Sūrah Ibrāhīm 14:10]

"And if My slaves ask you [Muhammad, may Allah’s prayers and peace be upon him] about Me, indeed I am Near. I respond to the call of the caller when he calls on Me, so let them respond to Me, and let them believe in Me so that they may be rightly-guided." [Sūrah al-Baqarah 2:186]

Allah does not reject humanity. It is humanity that accepts or rejects Him. This brings us to the issue of free will. Every individual has the choice to believe or disbelieve:

"And whoever from amongst you wants to, let him believe, and whoever from amongst you wants to, let him disbelieve." [Sūrah al-Kahf 18:29]

"He is the One Who created you, and from you is the disbeliever and from you is the believer." [Sūrah at-Taghābun 64:2]

"There is no compulsion in religion. Truth has been clearly distinguished from falsehood." [Sūrah al-Baqarah 2:256]

Does Allah need humanity to believe in Him and worship Him? Allah gives us the answer:

"If you disbelieve Allah has no need of you, and Allah is not pleased with disbelief for His slaves." [Sūrah az-Zumar 39:7]

Allah does not need us to have a relationship with Him, but He wants us to. This should make us realise that Allah’s mercy towards us is absolutely sincere.

What about salvation and perdition? As shown above, there are two kinds of people: the believer and the disbeliever, and Allah has made promises to both of them:

"Allah has promised the believing men and women that they shall have the Paradise, under which rivers flow." [Sūrah at-Tawbah 9:72]

"Allah has promised the hypocrites, men and women, and the disbelievers, the Fire of Hell, and they shall be in there forever." [Sūrah at-Tawbah 9:68]

"Indeed Allah does not break His promise." [Sūrah Āl-Imrān 3:9 and Sūrah ar-Raʿd 13:31]

Does Allah want to punish humanity for their disbelief? The following verse is very telling:

'Indeed those who disbelieved will be called [on the Day of Judgement]: “Your hatred of yourselves on this day is not as great as Allah’s hatred of the fact that you were called to faith [in this life] and you rejected it.”' [Sūrah al-Ghāfir 40:10]

Allah does not want anybody to go into the Hellfire, but He keeps His Word. This should make us realise that Paradise and Hell are not merely about reward and punishment, but they exist as a further impetus for humanity to have a relationship with Allah, their Lord and Creator.

The motivations behind worshipping Allah can be narrowed down to three:

1. Worshipping Allah out of fear of the Hellfire. This is the lowest.
2. Worshipping Allah out of desire for the Paradise.
3. Worshipping Allah for Who He is. This is the perfection of worship.


Worshipping Allah simply for Who He is could explain why the greatest reward for the believers is not necessarily to be in Paradise itself, but to see Him. The culmination of having a direct relationship with Allah in this life is simply to gaze at Him for all eternity in the next:

"Faces on that Day radiant, looking at their Lord." [Sūrah al-Qiyāmah 75:22-23]

"For those who did excellence is the best reward and something extra." [Sūrah Yūnus 10:26]

That something extra, according to all orthodox commentaries, is the seeing of Allah. How exactly this will be only Allah knows, but what a reward!

This is the purpose of life. It is left to humanity to make their own decision and they will be held responsible for that decision. Allah is At-Tawwāb [the Oft-Returning]; He is always ready to accept anybody who comes to Him, sincerely seeking a relationship with Him. Once that relationship is established Allah will never let go, but humanity is still free to do as they wish.

"There is no compulsion in religion: guidance has been clearly distinguished from error, so whoever rejects false gods and believes in Allah has grasped the firmest handhold, one that will never break."[Al-Baqarah 2:256]

http://mahdinnm.blogspot.co.uk/2010/12/purpose-of-life.html
 
Could you please expand on "strong possibility"?

I know about this conjecture.

I wanted some details around "strong" possibilities.
and what makes us believe that "Those are already in Paradise and hell."

I am not saying it is sure , just a view or opinion you can say. There are some weak sayings about other creatures present in Universe.

In surah fatiha Allah swt says " Al Humdulilah Rabaal Aaalamin " aalamin means all the worlds . So it indicates plurality.

Also , i heard from a reputed , very good scholar , that Imam Jaffar Sadiq AS saying that There has already judgement day has happened , previously also , as well as there are Heaven and Hell active with creatures.

Allah swt is Al Khaliq , who knows what else Allah swt has already created . Our knowledge is only to the extent Allah swt has given.
 
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Even though I'm a Muslim, I do think it's quite unfair that good non Muslims will go to hell forever just because they were disbelievers. I sincerely hope that every single good person regardless of their religion goes to heaven.

Allah swt is Most Just . He will not just send people to hell , he will give reasons. The person going to hell will not say that the judgement is wrong , but he will just plead to be send back to earth once more .
 
Allah swt is Most Just . He will not just send people to hell , he will give reasons. The person going to hell will not say that the judgement is wrong , but he will just plead to be send back to earth once more .

Also injustice is impossible for Allah. Even if Allah sent all believers to hell it would still be just, but because Allah has told us in the Quran that he won't that is why we know Allah will not do so.
 
I am not saying it is sure , just a view or opinion you can say. There are some weak sayings about other creatures present in Universe.

In surah fatiha Allah swt says " Al Humdulilah Rabaal Aaalamin " aalamin means all the worlds . So it indicates plurality.

Also , i heard from a reputed , very good scholar , that Imam Jaffar Sadiq AS saying that There has already judgement day has happened , previously also , as well as there are Heaven and Hell active with creatures.

Allah swt is Al Khaliq , who knows what else Allah swt has already created . Our knowledge is only to the extent Allah swt has given.

I have a friend who has completed course/training to become a hindu prest. Last week, I was talking to him about the similar topic and he mentioned something similar in hinduism to what you stated.

Death--》small hell or heaven --》reincarnation --》⊙ --》 ultimately joing with brahma.

But I hope that we understand that passing statements without providing supporting evidence is pretty easy task.
 
One thing is a guarantee though, not believing that Rasoolallah (Saws) is the last and final messenger (law bearing or non bearing) will lead to eternal hell.
 
One thing is a guarantee though, not believing that Rasoolallah (Saws) is the last and final messenger (law bearing or non bearing) will lead to eternal hell.

I guarantee that your guarantee is not guaranteed.
 
One thing is a guarantee though, not believing that Rasoolallah (Saws) is the last and final messenger (law bearing or non bearing) will lead to eternal hell.

Sorry but that completely unfair how good people who don't believe will be doomed to eternal hell. People should be judged on their actions and not on their beliefs imo
 
I have a friend who has completed course/training to become a hindu prest. Last week, I was talking to him about the similar topic and he mentioned something similar in hinduism to what you stated.

Death--》small hell or heaven --》reincarnation --》⊙ --》 ultimately joing with brahma.

But I hope that we understand that passing statements without providing supporting evidence is pretty easy task.

There is no reincarnation in Islam.

In Hinduism there is reincarnation according to deeds done in previous birth , till the soul is free from this cycle of birth and rebirth.

In Islam souls were dead , then they were brought to life , again will die , and be resurrected finally , for paradise or Hell.
 
One thing is a guarantee though, not believing that Rasoolallah (Saws) is the last and final messenger (law bearing or non bearing) will lead to eternal hell.

If one gets the message.

What you quoted is in fact a hadeeth.
 
Sorry but that completely unfair how good people who don't believe will be doomed to eternal hell. People should be judged on their actions and not on their beliefs imo

Very good and rare to see this attitude amongst followers who strictly adhere to the book.

This same question was asked by many philosophers thousands of years back and still relevant when religion is discussed.
 
Cricketfanfirst...

I'd argue that it's not strict adherence to a book ...because strict adherence would derive a different opinion ...

Actions are judged on the basis of belief ...so if one rejects God then their actions can't be deemed good ...Belief is a prerequisite which is why disbelievers have an eternity of hellfire to look forward to ...
 
Cricketfanfirst...

I'd argue that it's not strict adherence to a book ...because strict adherence would derive a different opinion ...

Actions are judged on the basis of belief ...so if one rejects God then their actions can't be deemed good ...Belief is a prerequisite which is why disbelievers have an eternity of hellfire to look forward to ...

Lets say there in fact is a hell although you don't believe there is, what is your back up plan being a disbeliever?
 
Cricketfanfirst...

I'd argue that it's not strict adherence to a book ...because strict adherence would derive a different opinion ...

Actions are judged on the basis of belief ...so if one rejects God then their actions can't be deemed good ...Belief is a prerequisite which is why disbelievers have an eternity of hellfire to look forward to ...

Actions are judged by intention, but I find it funny when disbelievers argue that it is unjust when they don't believe in Hell and Allah to begin with.
 
Lets say there in fact is a hell although you don't believe there is, what is your back up plan being a disbeliever?

As an apostate if i've got this wrong then there isn't much of a backup plan lol...and I guess the worst depths of hell would be what awaits...would be quite annoying...

For the record i'm not an atheist...im not so dogmatic...I believe in the possibility of a creator...just not the one sold to us by organised religions...

But hey...all I can ask of myself is to be sincere in my belief...one cant force oneself to believe in something they dont...
 
Actions are judged by intention, but I find it funny when disbelievers argue that it is unjust when they don't believe in Hell and Allah to begin with.

One doesn't have to believe in an idea to critique or discuss it...
 
As an apostate if i've got this wrong then there isn't much of a backup plan lol...and I guess the worst depths of hell would be what awaits...would be quite annoying...

For the record i'm not an atheist...im not so dogmatic...I believe in the possibility of a creator...just not the one sold to us by organised religions...

But hey...all I can ask of myself is to be sincere in my belief...one cant force oneself to believe in something they dont...

even as a muslim, you would be taking the same risk, Zeus could possible be the GOD. and we all know that he is not Merciful.

Plus, as a muslim, during average life, you would waste 25000 hrs only on prayers.

Plus, you would be believing so many invisible entities (Jinn, Angels, Satan, and God) and you will never truly have a private moment. (big hit on the psychology of a true believer, think you watch movie, and angels are watching you)

Plus, you would have to defend questionable practices to your self.

etc.

Time is THE most precious resource, do not gamble with it.
 
I have a friend who has completed course/training to become a hindu prest. Last week, I was talking to him about the similar topic and he mentioned something similar in hinduism to what you stated.

Death--》small hell or heaven --》reincarnation --》⊙ --》 ultimately joing with brahma.

But I hope that we understand that passing statements without providing supporting evidence is pretty easy task.

Yeah this is true, more or less. Hinduism believes even the desire for heaven or to avoid hell is still a human desire. So heaven and hell are just places for souls to rest/be punished. And then you are given a chance to try again by re-incarnation. The goal is to forgo all desires completely. When you do that, your atoms can be one with Brahma (which is also the universe and all things.) You realise - Ahem Brahmastmi - ie - I am Brahma. The goal is never to worship but to be free of all desires.

I could never understand eternal hell. Whether you are murdering someone or giving someone pain or denying God, you are doing these things temporarily. Even if you kill a child, you are just maximum taking 100 years away from him. But eternity is millions and millions and unending millions of years. How is that justice in any sense?

Also if someone weighs in all evidence, different books and using logic does not believe in God why should he be punished?
 
Yeah this is true, more or less. Hinduism believes even the desire for heaven or to avoid hell is still a human desire. So heaven and hell are just places for souls to rest/be punished. And then you are given a chance to try again by re-incarnation. The goal is to forgo all desires completely. When you do that, your atoms can be one with Brahma (which is also the universe and all things.) You realise - Ahem Brahmastmi - ie - I am Brahma. The goal is never to worship but to be free of all desires.

I could never understand eternal hell. Whether you are murdering someone or giving someone pain or denying God, you are doing these things temporarily. Even if you kill a child, you are just maximum taking 100 years away from him. But eternity is millions and millions and unending millions of years. How is that justice in any sense?

Also if someone weighs in all evidence, different books and using logic does not believe in God why should he be punished?

There is more to it.

Reincarnation process is also cyclic, moves one through "lower" species to humam.
And this cyclic process is part of larger cyclic process, as only human can go to hell or heaven but not other species.

As this all process started with minus infinity, so humans (who are still in cycle and have not joined the brahma yet) also have been to minor hell or heaven infinite times, (some mathematician should tell me if this amounts to eternal or not)

Anyway, it's a fascinating approach.
 
As an apostate if i've got this wrong then there isn't much of a backup plan lol...and I guess the worst depths of hell would be what awaits...would be quite annoying...

For the record i'm not an atheist...im not so dogmatic...I believe in the possibility of a creator...just not the one sold to us by organised religions...

But hey...all I can ask of myself is to be sincere in my belief...one cant force oneself to believe in something they dont...

Why do you believe in possibility of a creator ? What are basic reasons that makes you think there is a creator ?
 
Neengal ellorum garuda puranathumpadi dhandika paduveergal.

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[MENTION=137677]Thivagar[/MENTION]
 
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