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How did India lose the war of 1962 to China?

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Earlier I was reading about the sino-indian war of 1962 . India lost the war pretty badly and resulted in them surrendering a large part of the Kashmir state to China called Aksai Chin and since then India not tried to get back what they lost. I'm surprised about the result because China wasn't the superpower and economic powerhouse that is right now, in fact they were very poor at the time and had a lot of internal conflicts making them weaker than India that relatively better and also had the benefit of British built infrastructure and weapons. So how exactly did they lose the war to an underdog? Is this biggest defeat in Indian military history?
 
As China gets stronger economically and militarily and emerging as a world super power, will they try something similar in the future and try to annex parts of India that they still have claims over? Given their past successes against India, they must be really confident.
 
Chacha Nehru. one and only reason. He even said india is a peaceful nation,never occupied at other Nation, so no need to have army.
Army was not given any attention or importance only till 1962.
 
OP being a kid is in a highly emotional state and not sure how to control his emotions.

He is day dreaming of a day when China will go to war with India to punish India because Pakistan sure aint capable of it.

Now lets get some reality check:

- India China trade is close to 100 billion, most probably China's largest trade partner in Asia

- If China decides to attack India, lets be fair, India would lose and most likely wont recover. However China would lose as well, Americans, NATO, and majority of the world would side with India and China would be isolated. China would have nukes fall on them as well which would set them back decades with uncle SAM making sure China will never ever rise again with sanctions galore.

So the moral of the story is, threads like these would not change the fact article 35A is now RIP. Kashmir in the future will see mass migration from mainland India and Pakistanis cant do a damn thing about it. Get used to it, ignore it, work on your country, instead of doing nothing meaningful and burying your head in the sand since Pakistan's creation.....


Lets move on....
 
OP being a kid is in a highly emotional state and not sure how to control his emotions.

He is day dreaming of a day when China will go to war with India to punish India because Pakistan sure aint capable of it.

Now lets get some reality check:

- India China trade is close to 100 billion, most probably China's largest trade partner in Asia

- If China decides to attack India, lets be fair, India would lose and most likely wont recover. However China would lose as well, Americans, NATO, and majority of the world would side with India and China would be isolated. China would have nukes fall on them as well which would set them back decades with uncle SAM making sure China will never ever rise again with sanctions galore.

So the moral of the story is, threads like these would not change the fact article 35A is now RIP. Kashmir in the future will see mass migration from mainland India and Pakistanis cant do a damn thing about it. Get used to it, ignore it, work on your country, instead of doing nothing meaningful and burying your head in the sand since Pakistan's creation.....


Lets move on....

And you are not getting emotional?

Some care and some dont care what you do in IAK. like some Indians believe they will take over POK.

In the end nothing will happen so yes lets just move on...
 
And you are not getting emotional?

Some care and some dont care what you do in IAK. like some Indians believe they will take over POK.

In the end nothing will happen so yes lets just move on...

Perfect, lets move on... Mods, put a nail in this thread please...
 
1962 simply proves Indian military is weak. You hear Indians talk about their military being one of the best, but this claim is based on wars between Pakistan. Of course Indian military being bigger than Pakistans means India has the upper hand on paper, but when India met their match with China, India had their backside handed to them on a plate. Fancy that, losing parts of Kashmir to China!

Oh well . .
 
Chinese were better prepared for war while Indian army/government was not prepared.
 
India didn’t even invest much on defence back then. All that worthless Nehru knew was that we are a peaceful nation that will never go to war. China was a heavyweight compared to India back then. It was after that humiliation that we started investing in our defence.

Nehru was, is, and shall always remain the greatest curse for India.
 
India didn’t even invest much on defence back then. All that worthless Nehru knew was that we are a peaceful nation that will never go to war. China was a heavyweight compared to India back then. It was after that humiliation that we started investing in our defence.

Nehru was, is, and shall always remain the greatest curse for India.

Tbf to Nehru the war came in much later in his life to give him a reality check , he did manage to get Goa from Portuguese amongst International cry and the China war is the single reason to our mindset shift in foreign policy from idealism to realism.
Leaders should be allowed to make mistakes, if they learn from it, I feel he would had done much better had China war occurred in 1952 than 1962.
 
Chinese are much superior. No shame in admitting that as an Indian. We were outwitted and out-powered by a superior country.
 
China wasn't a superpower back then but still they were much superior to us both militarily and economically. I don't know how the OP got this reckoning that China were the underdogs.
 
China wasn't a superpower back then but still they were much superior to us both militarily and economically. I don't know how the OP got this reckoning that China were the underdogs.

They were in quite a state after WW2. Not a 10 year fix.
 
Looking at the 1962 war as an indication of where relative power lies, is a mistake already made by the Army in 1965. No point revisiting it again 50 years later.
 
China had a superior army back then and China still is quite superior.

China is the third biggest global power after USA and Russia currently (military-wise).
 
China was not a soft nation back then, they had mastered the art of modern warfare since WW2 and defeated India thoroughly with superior tactics and better understanding of mountain warfare and Himalyan terrain..

It was a pity that Pak army did not open a second front on Indian Western borders , had they opened another front Kashmir would have been waiting on a platter ready to conquer .
 
OP being a kid is in a highly emotional state and not sure how to control his emotions.

He is day dreaming of a day when China will go to war with India to punish India because Pakistan sure aint capable of it.

Now lets get some reality check:

- India China trade is close to 100 billion, most probably China's largest trade partner in Asia

- If China decides to attack India, lets be fair, India would lose and most likely wont recover. However China would lose as well, Americans, NATO, and majority of the world would side with India and China would be isolated. China would have nukes fall on them as well which would set them back decades with uncle SAM making sure China will never ever rise again with sanctions galore.

So the moral of the story is, threads like these would not change the fact article 35A is now RIP. Kashmir in the future will see mass migration from mainland India and Pakistanis cant do a damn thing about it. Get used to it, ignore it, work on your country, instead of doing nothing meaningful and burying your head in the sand since Pakistan's creation.....


Lets move on....

China doesnt need to do trade with india ,the cpec will cover that trade deficit if china goes to war with india so I don't see any loss for china.
 
China occupied Arunachal which has a lot of energy potential. However they withdrew and took that dump Aksai Chin. It was always difficult to defend Aksai Chin
 
China doesnt need to do trade with india ,the cpec will cover that trade deficit if china goes to war with india so I don't see any loss for china.

"CPEC will cover trade deficit" what? Read about Pak China trade and see the numbers. Then see Indo China numbers and then read about trade war between US and China and see how China is trying to cover it. I know you won't but would be worth it
 
Chinese are much superior. No shame in admitting that as an Indian. We were outwitted and out-powered by a superior country.

At the time it wasn’t.

I’d say economically they might have been at par

China started going places 70s onwards
 
Chacha Nehru. one and only reason. He even said india is a peaceful nation,never occupied at other Nation, so no need to have army.
Army was not given any attention or importance only till 1962.
That’s not true bro

He took decision to invade and annex Deccan when the ruler was dithering and wanted to be independent or go to Pakistan. Same with junagadh
 
That’s not true bro

He took decision to invade and annex Deccan when the ruler was dithering and wanted to be independent or go to Pakistan. Same with junagadh

You’re serious? It was Sardar Vallabbhai Patel who made those decisions, not imbecile Nehru. Kindly read history.
 
At the time it wasn’t.

I’d say economically they might have been at par

China started going places 70s onwards

That's true. India underestimated Chinese and it was a misadventure. They focussed on Aksai Chin instead of Arunachal and lost both. Chinese bowed to international pressure and gave away Arunachal back. The terrain at Aksai Chin was tricky. India has to cross the peaks and owned land beyond that. That's impossible to defend.
 
India surrendered Aksai Chin a part of the Kashmir state over to China. It's just a little bigger than Taiwan in terms of area, that's a pretty big chunk of land.

main-qimg-d8e83d37877f6f5bd0553d5f8419cb5a
 
China always gave a tight phainty to india. I advised indians to not to mess with china. They will erase you from earth.
 
China always gave a tight phainty to india. I advised indians to not to mess with china. They will erase you from earth.

India didn't even let them interfare in bhutan, forget about india. Indian Army went bhutan to take on them. Between I agree India is no match to China. Those guys went way too far in last 20 years. Difficult to come even near them.
 
OP being a kid is in a highly emotional state and not sure how to control his emotions.

He is day dreaming of a day when China will go to war with India to punish India because Pakistan sure aint capable of it.

Now lets get some reality check:

- India China trade is close to 100 billion, most probably China's largest trade partner in Asia

- If China decides to attack India, lets be fair, India would lose and most likely wont recover. However China would lose as well, Americans, NATO, and majority of the world would side with India and China would be isolated. China would have nukes fall on them as well which would set them back decades with uncle SAM making sure China will never ever rise again with sanctions galore.

So the moral of the story is, threads like these would not change the fact article 35A is now RIP. Kashmir in the future will see mass migration from mainland India and Pakistanis cant do a damn thing about it. Get used to it, ignore it, work on your country, instead of doing nothing meaningful and burying your head in the sand since Pakistan's creation.....


Lets move on....

China will overtake US in 20-25 years. Difficult to isolate someone who is ruling power of the world. During the coming years we will see China play by its own rules.
 
Earlier I was reading about the sino-indian war of 1962 . India lost the war pretty badly and resulted in them surrendering a large part of the Kashmir state to China called Aksai Chin and since then India not tried to get back what they lost. I'm surprised about the result because China wasn't the superpower and economic powerhouse that is right now, in fact they were very poor at the time and had a lot of internal conflicts making them weaker than India that relatively better and also had the benefit of British built infrastructure and weapons. So how exactly did they lose the war to an underdog? Is this biggest defeat in Indian military history?

Basically, we blundered into war without knowing the enemy. There was inferiority of methods, tactics and vision - when it comes to India-China war, the safe bet is always China.
 
Stay on topic which is about India v China
 
Earlier I was reading about the sino-indian war of 1962 . India lost the war pretty badly and resulted in them surrendering a large part of the Kashmir state to China called Aksai Chin and since then India not tried to get back what they lost. I'm surprised about the result because China wasn't the superpower and economic powerhouse that is right now, in fact they were very poor at the time and had a lot of internal conflicts making them weaker than India that relatively better and also had the benefit of British built infrastructure and weapons. So how exactly did they lose the war to an underdog? Is this biggest defeat in Indian military history?

I'm a combat veteran and love war history, this thread is very interesting for me. You raised an interesting question (bolded). First, it could be debatable that China was lagging behind India then and I can explain why. Plus no need to be a super power to win a conflict.

Wars in reality are won with a combination of preparedness, strategic depth (that comes with being prepared), logistics (usually highly overlooked or ignored by non-combat folks in a discussion) along with the usually obvious ammo strength, personnel, quality leadership for personnel on ground etc. The usual drivel about "we are a better warrior people than the country down the street" is ** and an argumentative agenda pushed by keyboard warriors for feel good factors.

India was pretty bad on the preparedness factor at that time. Among all the factors I listed above, preparation is the all encompassing cornerstone that makes/breaks pretty much everything else that matters in a war. Preparation (tactical and strategic) has to come with the right civilian and military leadership and policies put in place. I think India was pathetic in terms of war planning until that point. So when this war started they had low quality on-the-ground military leadership, poor logistics and supply chain, poor arms/ammo reserves -- all poor compared to where China was (regardless of how bad China was overall, India was worse in terms of military planning).

I did some cursory searches and found good set of first hand accounts (from Indian pov) and when you read these you can understand why India lost.

http://www.rediff.com/news/indochin.htm (has links to various individual battles).

http://www.rediff.com/news/india-china-1962-war-50-years/

Cannot find similar Chinese pov accounts yet (maybe not there in English), would be awesome if we can.
 
At the time it wasn’t.

I’d say economically they might have been at par

China started going places 70s onwards

Chinese have always dominated Indians. Be it academics, warfare, civilization, global influence, or whatever parameter you want to take. Even today you can see how China has progressed leaving India behind in dumps.
 
The Cuban Missile Crisis was going on so India was unable to get help from USSR or perhaps USA.
 
Basically, we blundered into war without knowing the enemy. There was inferiority of methods, tactics and vision - when it comes to India-China war, the safe bet is always China.

Why though? China were hardened after WW2, I'm astonished Indians took it easy :))
 
The Cuban Missile Crisis was going on so India was unable to get help from USSR or perhaps USA.

That explains everything, India wouldn't be able to win a war without help from a superpower. Even in '71 they received support from the soviets.
 
That explains everything, India wouldn't be able to win a war without help from a superpower. Even in '71 they received support from the soviets.

So what help did India receive from the Soviets in '71. And did Pakistan receive help from any countries in '71?
 
That explains everything, India wouldn't be able to win a war without help from a superpower. Even in '71 they received support from the soviets.

Is this a troll comment or did the Indians actually receive military help in 1971? Curious now.
 

Inaccurate. The links mention Indians getting diplomatic help but not boots on the ground from the Russians. Remember hearing about Kissinger's support from my conversations with my uncles. Trini communities were not happy per them though the feeling was not as strong since they never feel connected to India.
 
Nehru's idiotic " hindi-Chini bhai bhai" mentality was the reason why India was not prepared for any adventure from China. That was the war for india to learn some lessons. After that there are three incident happened on border between india and china.

Victory to India :
This was the end of chinese superiority in himalayas. Indian army was well prepared this time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathu_La_and_Cho_La_clashes

Stand off :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_Sino-Indian_skirmish

Chinese back off:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_China–India_border_standoff
If anybody knew what happen to Dokhlam, it was the best tactical move by Modi. China threatned india to go full scale war and chinese mouth peace came with fire on indian government. The end result was India achieved his goal and china back off.


There will never a full scale war between india and china in future. China is not stupid to involve a war with india because of third party.
 
India didn’t even invest much on defence back then. All that worthless Nehru knew was that we are a peaceful nation that will never go to war. China was a heavyweight compared to India back then. It was after that humiliation that we started investing in our defence.

Nehru was, is, and shall always remain the greatest curse for India.

From the outside looking in, Nehru is seen as a revered figure of Indian independence.

Could you elaborate as to why he is viewed negatively within India?
 
That explains everything, India wouldn't be able to win a war without help from a superpower. Even in '71 they received support from the soviets.

And you conveniently fail to mention that Pakistan had support from the US.
 
And you conveniently fail to mention that Pakistan had support from the US.

What he (the Pakistanian dude) mentioned about India's help from Russia is also inaccurate. Just keeps making bombastic statements to garner attention.
 
Nothing compared to what India recieved from the Soviets and Israel and the local people.

Your own post above (#38) has links stating that Indians received only diplomatic support from the Russians. The Pakistanis also received at least that (if not more) from their allies at that time. So why do you keep repeating the same inaccurate fact over and over in spite of being called out on it? Your reasoning ability is also "2 inches" now? Man, some guys ... ugh!
 
China winning hearts of religious folk :rabada2

For Indian pilgrims on the difficult trek to the high altitude Kailash Manasarovar, the Hindu holy site in Tibet, things might have just got easier from this year.

Accommodation facilities, called reception centres, have been built at various points of the pilgrimage, thanks to an initiative by the Chinese government to improve the material comforts of the pilgrims undertaking the arduous journey.

The reception centres, each with about 150 beds, have rooms with charging points, a common kitchen and a common washroom, and provide food for the yatris. According to Awang Chering, Director-General of the Foreign Affairs Office of the Ali Prefecture, all the four new reception centres have similar facilities.

“The Chinese government has spent 36.8 million RMBs ($5.21 million) in building these centres,” he said. While two are open this year, the other two will be open to yatris from 2020.
 
Long story short - we were unprepared as Nehru kept believing in the 'Hindi-Chini bhai bhai' **.

However, this was a good kick in the rear that we needed, and it has ensured another war hasn't broken out between India and China, bar a few border skirmishes.

People constantly talk of military might in terms of numbers and tech all the time, but preparedness, planning and logistics are equally important factors in deciding who comes out the winner.
 
So what help did India receive from the Soviets in '71. And did Pakistan receive help from any countries in '71?

The USAF certainly trained up PAF pilots. Chuck Yeager himself was involved. Otherwise I dare say the US supplied Pakistan with intel.
 
The army on Sunday confirmed that a heated confrontation took place between Indian and Chinese soldiers in north Sikkim on Saturday, resulting in injuries to troops on both sides.

The army statement came on a day Hindustan Times reported that scores of Indian and Chinese soldiers were involved in a tense face-off at Naku La in Sikkim and the scuffle left 11 soldiers injured.

“Incident of face-off as referred to in the (HT) article did take place. Aggressive behaviour by the two sides resulted in minor injuries to troops,” the statement said.

The army said “temporary and short duration face-offs” between border guarding troops do occur as boundaries are not resolved. The statement said two sides disengaged after dialogue and interaction at local level. “Troops resolve such issues mutually as per established protocols,” the statement added.

Four Indian and seven Chinese soldiers were injured during the confrontation that involved around 150 soldiers.

The Asian giants have a long-standing border dispute that led to a war in 1962. The festering feud causes around 400 face-offs every year along the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

The face-off at Naku La was not the first time Indian and Chinese soldiers got into a fistfight. In August 2017, Indian and Chinese soldiers threw stones at each other and also exchanged blows near Pangong Lake in Ladakh.

The clash near the LAC aggravated bilateral tensions as it happened at a time when the two neighbours were locked in a long standoff in the disputed Doklam plateau close to Sikkim.

The 73-day Doklam standoff between India and China along the Sikkim border was likely to be the new normal, the Centre for Joint Warfare Studies (CENJOWS) said in 2017, making a strong case for building military capabilities “as China respected strength.”

In a paper titled Looking Beyond Doklam, the CENJOWS, a think tank set up by the defence ministry, said it was crucial for India to demonstrate strength as peace along the disputed border will be “constantly and continuously” under stress with “increase in frequency, intensity and depth of (Chinese) transgressions leading to more and more standoffs.”

On Doklam, China had accused India of trespass and preventing its troops from building a road in the remote Himalayan plateau that is claimed by both China and Bhutan. The standoff ended with withdrawal of troops by both armies.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...-both-sides/story-8VJk43aU1O7Vw0jWtV9ARP.html
 
To OP,
we shouldn’t be too obsessed with which wars India lost. Chinese are only intetested in Pakistan for their own interests, otherwise we are no closer to them. Sino Indian conflict is centuries old and is spanned all over south east asia.

On the other hand Indians are the same people as us, so we Pakistanis should try to find commonalities with our own ilk. I hope both India and Pakistan can resolve the outstanding border issues and move forward.
 
After the scuffle between the Chinese People’s Liberation Army troops and Indian troops along the LAC in North Sikkim which led to injuries on both sides, China appears to be continuing on the path of belligerence towards India, this time along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh.

In what appears to be a multi-front deliberate ploy by China to keep India on its toes the Indian Air Force was forced to rush its fighter jet patrols in Ladakh after Chinese military choppers were found to be flying close to the Line of Actual Control. This incident happened last week, around the same time the PLA troops and Indian army forces came to blows in the upper reaches of North Sikkim.

“The Chinese military helicopters were flying very close to the Line of Actual Control. After their movement was picked up, the Indian Air Force fighter jets flew patrols in the area,” government sources told ANI here.

Government sources who requested anonymity due to knowledge of frontline operations, informed that the Chinese choppers did not cross the LAC into Indian territory in that particular area, they said.

The Indian Air Force frequently flies its Sukhoi 30MKI fighter aircraft fleet from Leh air base in Ladakh along with other planes.

This latest development comes soon after the Indian security establishment noticed that Pakistani Air Force increased its patrols of F-16S and JF-17s along its Eastern Border with India, especially night sorties, after the Handwara terror attack that led to the death of 5 Indian security personnel. A fear of retaliation by Indian forces was cited as the reason by Indian security establishment sources for this ramping up of PAF air patrols.


The Indian Air Force has two main bases in the Ladakh union territory including the Leh and the Thoise airbase where fighter jets are not deployed permanently but detachments from combat aircraft squadrons are operational throughout the year.There have been several occasions in the past when Chinese military helicopters have entered Indian airspace in the Ladakh sector and deliberately left behind tell-tale signs to stake claim on areas which are part of India. The LAC in this location, like in other parts of the India-China border in the country, is poorly demarcated, hence incursions sometimes are inadvertent as well.

However, the scuffle with Indian troops in North Sikkim was a new front opened up by China which was a cause for concern. Ever since the outbreak of Covid-19, Chinese President Xi Jinping is under immense pressure to increase transparency in his country and reveal the real origin of the virus, which some have speculated emanated from a lab in China’s Wuhan. Trade wars with countries like USA and Australia have intensified and most multi-national companies have actively begun looking for manufacturing alternative,India being one such preferred destination.

Security sources speculated that this could be the reason behind China’s new aggression. Similar muscle flexing was also seen recently when PLA Navy boats entered into disputed waters in the South China Sea.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/indi...d-in-report/story-25Jr9bsUEPQYPieX39mSKJ.html
 
For the first time since the Kargil intrusions of 1999, Indian territory is in the hands of foreign soldiers. Starting in the third week of April, more than 5,000 Chinese soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) have intruded into five points in Ladakh – four along the Galwan River, and one near the Pangong Lake.

While patrol intrusions from both sides are routine in areas where the Line of Actual Control (LAC) – the de facto border between India and China – is disputed, the LAC in the Galwan Valley corresponds to China’s official claim line.

That means that, in sending thousands of PLA troops three-to-four kilometres into the Galwan Valley, China has violated its own claim line and occupied territory that Beijing itself has traditionally acknowledged to be Indian.

This is not shaping up like a routing patrol confrontation, or even a temporary occupation of disputed territory of the kind that took place in Depsang in 2013, or in Chumar in 2014. This time the PLA soldiers are digging defences, preparing bunkers, moving in heavy vehicles and have reportedly even moved artillery guns to the rear (albeit in their own territory) to support the intruders, say the sources.

The Chinese have pitched close to a hundred tents at four points on the Galwan River between Patrolling Point 14 (PP 14) and another location called Gogra.

Indian troops in the area were taken by surprise when a large Chinese force crossed the LAC into the Galwan area in late April. Since then, Indian forces have not challenged or confronted the PLA.

Sources say the PLA is expanding its presence. There are fresh reports that the PLA has already initiated another infiltration into another sector in Southern Ladakh.

The Pangong Lake intrusion has been especially bloody for the Indian soldiers there. Sources say 72 Indian soldiers were injured in the confrontation and some of them needed to be flown to hospitals in Leh, Chandi Mandir and Delhi.

The PLA intrusions into Ladakh do not appear to be a localized operation, since they are spread across the area of responsibility of different PLA brigades and division. That suggests centralized coordination from at least the PLA’s theatre command.

Contacted for confirmation, senior officers in the army’s public information directorate declined to comment. Sources say the prime minister’s office (PMO) and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval are overseeing the Indian response.

At the local military level, which falls under the ambit of the Leh Corps Commander, there is little contact with the Chinese. It is learnt that the PLA has stopped responding to Indian requests for flag meetings under the mutual protocol termed the “Border Management Posture” (BMP). “It is a stand-off in which there is presently no communication,” says a senior military officer.

The unusual level of Chinese aggression is illustrated by an incident at the end of April when two Chinese helicopter chased off an Indian helicopter in which the Leh Corps Commander was surveying Indian positions near the Pangong Lake.

The army admits that there was an incident involving helicopters from both sides, but states it was a “coincidence” that the Chinese helicopters were there. The Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria admitted in an interview this week that there was Chinese helicopter activity in the area, but claimed that the IAF was taking “necessary action”.

There is little clarity within government about why the Chinese have triggered this intrusion, along with another simultaneously in Sikkim. Some officials speculate that Beijing is punishing New Delhi for publishing a revised map of the former state of Jammu & Kashmir in November, which showed Aksai Chin – which both countries claim, but China occupies – as a part of India.

Another viewpoint holds that the traditionally peaceful Galwan River has now become a hotspot because it is where the LAC is closest to the new road India has built along the Shyok River to Daulet Beg Oldi (DBO) -- the most remote and vulnerable area along the LAC in Ladakh.

Along the 800 kilometre LAC in Ladakh, there have traditionally been just five trouble spots, where the two sides dispute the LAC. These are Chumar, Demchok, Pangong and two places near DBO. The PLA’s ingress into the Galwan River valley opens up a new and worrying chapter.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/05/a-new-and-worrying-chapter-ladakh.html?m=1
 
Earlier I was reading about the sino-indian war of 1962 . India lost the war pretty badly and resulted in them surrendering a large part of the Kashmir state to China called Aksai Chin and since then India not tried to get back what they lost. I'm surprised about the result because China wasn't the superpower and economic powerhouse that is right now, in fact they were very poor at the time and had a lot of internal conflicts making them weaker than India that relatively better and also had the benefit of British built infrastructure and weapons. So how exactly did they lose the war to an underdog? Is this biggest defeat in Indian military history?

How did India lose? In one word: Nehru.
 
1962 simply proves Indian military is weak. You hear Indians talk about their military being one of the best, but this claim is based on wars between Pakistan. Of course Indian military being bigger than Pakistans means India has the upper hand on paper, but when India met their match with China, India had their backside handed to them on a plate. Fancy that, losing parts of Kashmir to China!

Oh well . .

Indian cirrently has 272 Su-30 fighters, surely an overmatch for the PAF.
 
Indian cirrently has 272 Su-30 fighters, surely an overmatch for the PAF.

Pakistan can never win a long unlimited war with India due to their sheer numbers. That's why we have nukes. One of the red lines in Pakistan's doctrine is to use nukes if the air force can no longer defend the country.
 
Nehru isn't there now, but I think if war broke out now, most neutrals would bet India would lose again.

It depends upon a lot of things:

1) War is extremely unlikely between two mature nuclear armed nations. Last time they threw stones at each other in Bhutan because neither side wanted to escalate.

2) If war did anyway break out, much would depend upon the US. If Trump was still there, and he gave India F-35s, then India could sink most of the Chinese navy, and destroy Chinese power plants. Technology is king in 21st century war, so whichever side had better technology would win. Anyway, it's not going to happen. The leaders of both countries are not stupid.

3) Finally, this thread is about the 1962 war for which the idiot Nehru is to be blamed. Whether China is currently militarily stronger than India is a digression.
 
Pakistan can never win a long unlimited war with India due to their sheer numbers. That's why we have nukes. One of the red lines in Pakistan's doctrine is to use nukes if the air force can no longer defend the country.

It would be an unbelievably stupid Indian leader who would invade Pakistan and make its problems India's problems.
 
It depends upon a lot of things:

1) War is extremely unlikely between two mature nuclear armed nations. Last time they threw stones at each other in Bhutan because neither side wanted to escalate.

2) If war did anyway break out, much would depend upon the US. If Trump was still there, and he gave India F-35s, then India could sink most of the Chinese navy, and destroy Chinese power plants. Technology is king in 21st century war, so whichever side had better technology would win. Anyway, it's not going to happen. The leaders of both countries are not stupid.

3) Finally, this thread is about the 1962 war for which the idiot Nehru is to be blamed. Whether China is currently militarily stronger than India is a digression.

What I am reading there is that India's hopes of winning a war with China would be heavily dependent on the US providing overwhelming support, that too dependent on Trump being President.

Otherwise this is about the 1962 war I agree, and in that case India was pretty embarrassingly thrashed, if that is what you want to talk about.
 
Earlier it was fashionable to blame all of India’s ills on the two states of Bihar and UP as if India is a first world heaven without them.

Now revisionists blame Nehru for India’s failures post independence. Get thrashed by China? Blame Nehru. Not have total control over Kashmir? Blame Nehru. Not accept the fictional UNSC permanent seat? Blame Nehru eventhough there was no offer.

No wonder hindutva nationalists including Modi believe that several thousand years ago what constitutes modern day India was once a society where surgeries took place and there were modes of flight
 
Earlier it was fashionable to blame all of India’s ills on the two states of Bihar and UP as if India is a first world heaven without them.

Now revisionists blame Nehru for India’s failures post independence. Get thrashed by China? Blame Nehru. Not have total control over Kashmir? Blame Nehru. Not accept the fictional UNSC permanent seat? Blame Nehru eventhough there was no offer.

Nehru was an idealist, not a bad person but not a great leader coz his decision making probably situation- partition, Chinese border etc.. he would had been good if we didn't share borders ,as I said before i wish China war happened in 1952.. he would had had 10 years to make amends and be a realist which occurred after 1962 when he finally took over Goa.

China war is a very important even in Independent India’s history our defense discipline increased a lot atleast from what I have been told by grandfather increased.

Pakistan missed a golden opportunity then apparently coz USA..
 
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How did India lose? In one word: Nehru.

We would had lost the war in any situation unless you think other leaders would had gotten help from States or USSR Nd Nehru alone wasn’t able to achieve that.
 
It would be an unbelievably stupid Indian leader who would invade Pakistan and make its problems India's problems.

Not very long ago, a rather stupid Indian leader did unsuccessfully try to invade Pakistan and I don't see need to remind the aftermath.


PS: There was a news about Pulwana attack being a false flag instigated by some police officer (read something along these lines, I could be wrong). How's the investigation into that matter, that if there ever was one!
 
Earlier it was fashionable to blame all of India’s ills on the two states of Bihar and UP as if India is a first world heaven without them.

Now revisionists blame Nehru for India’s failures post independence. Get thrashed by China? Blame Nehru. Not have total control over Kashmir? Blame Nehru. Not accept the fictional UNSC permanent seat? Blame Nehru eventhough there was no offer.

No wonder hindutva nationalists including Modi believe that several thousand years ago what constitutes modern day India was once a society where surgeries took place and there were modes of flight

In hope to not divert this thread, India was always invaded by random nobodies :facepalm: Babar when he invaded then capital of major Indian state was a teenager with a handful of warriors :facepalm:


No need to blame Nehru for that, it's Hindu hateful mentality towards lower casts. These lower casts never believed India to be their home country and so never fought agains invaders.

Even nowadays, their army is only capable of oppressing unarmed Kashmiris.
 
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For the first time since the Kargil intrusions of 1999, Indian territory is in the hands of foreign soldiers. Starting in the third week of April, more than 5,000 Chinese soldiers of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) have intruded into five points in Ladakh – four along the Galwan River, and one near the Pangong Lake.

While patrol intrusions from both sides are routine in areas where the Line of Actual Control (LAC) – the de facto border between India and China – is disputed, the LAC in the Galwan Valley corresponds to China’s official claim line.

That means that, in sending thousands of PLA troops three-to-four kilometres into the Galwan Valley, China has violated its own claim line and occupied territory that Beijing itself has traditionally acknowledged to be Indian.

This is not shaping up like a routing patrol confrontation, or even a temporary occupation of disputed territory of the kind that took place in Depsang in 2013, or in Chumar in 2014. This time the PLA soldiers are digging defences, preparing bunkers, moving in heavy vehicles and have reportedly even moved artillery guns to the rear (albeit in their own territory) to support the intruders, say the sources.

The Chinese have pitched close to a hundred tents at four points on the Galwan River between Patrolling Point 14 (PP 14) and another location called Gogra.

Indian troops in the area were taken by surprise when a large Chinese force crossed the LAC into the Galwan area in late April. Since then, Indian forces have not challenged or confronted the PLA.

Sources say the PLA is expanding its presence. There are fresh reports that the PLA has already initiated another infiltration into another sector in Southern Ladakh.

The Pangong Lake intrusion has been especially bloody for the Indian soldiers there. Sources say 72 Indian soldiers were injured in the confrontation and some of them needed to be flown to hospitals in Leh, Chandi Mandir and Delhi.

The PLA intrusions into Ladakh do not appear to be a localized operation, since they are spread across the area of responsibility of different PLA brigades and division. That suggests centralized coordination from at least the PLA’s theatre command.

Contacted for confirmation, senior officers in the army’s public information directorate declined to comment. Sources say the prime minister’s office (PMO) and National Security Advisor Ajit Doval are overseeing the Indian response.

At the local military level, which falls under the ambit of the Leh Corps Commander, there is little contact with the Chinese. It is learnt that the PLA has stopped responding to Indian requests for flag meetings under the mutual protocol termed the “Border Management Posture” (BMP). “It is a stand-off in which there is presently no communication,” says a senior military officer.

The unusual level of Chinese aggression is illustrated by an incident at the end of April when two Chinese helicopter chased off an Indian helicopter in which the Leh Corps Commander was surveying Indian positions near the Pangong Lake.

The army admits that there was an incident involving helicopters from both sides, but states it was a “coincidence” that the Chinese helicopters were there. The Indian Air Force (IAF) chief, Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria admitted in an interview this week that there was Chinese helicopter activity in the area, but claimed that the IAF was taking “necessary action”.

There is little clarity within government about why the Chinese have triggered this intrusion, along with another simultaneously in Sikkim. Some officials speculate that Beijing is punishing New Delhi for publishing a revised map of the former state of Jammu & Kashmir in November, which showed Aksai Chin – which both countries claim, but China occupies – as a part of India.

Another viewpoint holds that the traditionally peaceful Galwan River has now become a hotspot because it is where the LAC is closest to the new road India has built along the Shyok River to Daulet Beg Oldi (DBO) -- the most remote and vulnerable area along the LAC in Ladakh.

Along the 800 kilometre LAC in Ladakh, there have traditionally been just five trouble spots, where the two sides dispute the LAC. These are Chumar, Demchok, Pangong and two places near DBO. The PLA’s ingress into the Galwan River valley opens up a new and worrying chapter.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/05/a-new-and-worrying-chapter-ladakh.html?m=1

China seems more comfortable waltzing into Ladakh now that it is seperate from J&K state and hence no longer attracts the exposure it got when it was associated with Kashmir, strange to see none of our resident Indian chest thumpers have showed up here to clarify their takes on this topic :13:
 
China seems more comfortable waltzing into Ladakh now that it is seperate from J&K state and hence no longer attracts the exposure it got when it was associated with Kashmir, strange to see none of our resident Indian chest thumpers have showed up here to clarify their takes on this topic :13:

What clarification are you looking for?
 
We would had lost the war in any situation unless you think other leaders would had gotten help from States or USSR Nd Nehru alone wasn’t able to achieve that.

There were many issues which need to be understood.

1) There was a prevailing Indian state philosophy that the ruling Congress Party inherited from Gandhi and which was carried on by Nehru. Gandhi had a lot of prestige nationally and internationally due to his commitment to non-violence.

Gandhi's response to injustice was to fight back with non-violence. His favored methods of political mobilization was non-cooperation and fasting. That got him enormous respect from the Indian public and was very successful against the British.

2) Gandhi's way was not the only way in which Indian's fought for freedom from the British. Countless Indians like Netaji Bose, Bhagat Singh, BBD, Surya Sen, Pritilata Wadedar etc. took up arms to fight injustice. When they did that, they knew they would most likely pay with their lives and they did so.

3) While the non-violence philosophy was successful against the British who were a mix of liberals (Labour PM Attlee) and Nazi-lite (Conservative PM Churchill) , it obviously didn't work against the Chinese Communist Party.

4) If India had at that time been led by Netaji Bose, it would have fought differently. Bose met Hitler in May 1941, after the Second Battle of Kharkov, when the Wehrmacht was ascendant on the Eastern Front and seemingly Hitler had final victory in his grasp. Bose was not in the least intimidated by Hitler and remained strong in pushing for Indian interests and honor.

https://scroll.in/article/928856/fi...chandra-bose-met-hitler-read-this-re-creation

5) The Chinese can be turned back. They are not a specially capable army. Vietnam fended them off, but it did cost Vietnam 50,000 lives compared to 1,400 Indians killed in the 1962 war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Indian_War

6) So the question arises "Was giving up Aksai Chin worth the 48,600 Indian lives saved?" This isn't an easy question to answer. Nehru answered "Yes" and stopped fighting. Bose would probably have answered "No" and kept fighting.

7) The soldiers of the Indian Army probably would have gone with Bose as they are exceptionally brave, there are countless examples. Major Chandpuri did not retreat when he knew there were armor approaching his position and he had only one M40 recoilless rifle. The top officers of INS Khukhri lost their lives while waiting for their subordinates to first get to safety. Major Vivek Gupta led his men up the frozen slopes of Tololing and paid with his life to achieve the goal he was given.

8) The counter argument is that every life lost is priceless, and do we really want to sacrifice tens of thousands of fathers, brothers, sons to hang on to a useless frozen piece of land?

9) The problem with letting China have Aksai Chin is that they will next want something else. So no easy answers.

10) If a war does happen, it is a certainty that the other strongest military powers (US and Russia) will come down heavily in India's favor, and if India decides to fight back it will have the tools needed to repel the Chinese. However, India will still have to bear the biggest cost of tens of thousands or even a hundred thousand plus casualties. One hope it never happens, but internally there is probably a PLA lobby which loves wars and has considerable influence over the Chinese Communist Party. So if it happens, India will have to pay the price if its leaders are ready. Its soldiers are ready.
 
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Earlier it was fashionable to blame all of India’s ills on the two states of Bihar and UP as if India is a first world heaven without them.

Now revisionists blame Nehru for India’s failures post independence. Get thrashed by China? Blame Nehru. Not have total control over Kashmir? Blame Nehru. Not accept the fictional UNSC permanent seat? Blame Nehru eventhough there was no offer.

No wonder hindutva nationalists including Modi believe that several thousand years ago what constitutes modern day India was once a society where surgeries took place and there were modes of flight

Its good to see Pakistanis slowly giving respect to Nehru. I keep harping this point, Nehru should be hailed as one of the heros of Pakistan, his photo should be hanging next to Jinnah's in Pakistan's parliament. Had Sardar Patel been leading India instead of Nehru, Pakistan would not have an inch of Kashmir today.

Nehru ensured Pakistan would have a portion of Kashmir and also seal Pakistan and India's destiny as enemies till the end of time..
 
You call that an invasion ? :))

What would you call it? Your Afghan chums still consider Pakistan as a fake state, most of them still think of Punjab as part of India. China took back Hong Kong from the British, yet India is so conflicted they can't even agree with their own supposed allies what is Indian territory and what can be passed off as Pakistan?

Stick to South India or Bangladesh would be my advice. Territory further north is too complicated.
 
Its good to see Pakistanis slowly giving respect to Nehru. I keep harping this point, Nehru should be hailed as one of the heros of Pakistan, his photo should be hanging next to Jinnah's in Pakistan's parliament. Had Sardar Patel been leading India instead of Nehru, Pakistan would not have an inch of Kashmir today.

Nehru ensured Pakistan would have a portion of Kashmir and also seal Pakistan and India's destiny as enemies till the end of time..

Lol this sardar Patel guy wanted to give Pakistan the whole of kashmir. Do you even know history
 
What would you call it? Your Afghan chums still consider Pakistan as a fake state, most of them still think of Punjab as part of India. China took back Hong Kong from the British, yet India is so conflicted they can't even agree with their own supposed allies what is Indian territory and what can be passed off as Pakistan?

Stick to South India or Bangladesh would be my advice. Territory further north is too complicated.

How is any of this related to my question ? What even is your point ? :))
 
Lol this sardar Patel guy wanted to give Pakistan the whole of kashmir. Do you even know history

I recall telling you the above point to begin with in another thread :)).

Now lets put things into perspective:

From what I have read Sardar Patel offered all of Kashmir if Jinnah backed off Hyderabad, however Jinnah would not come to a compromise. So Kashmir was never coming to Pakistan either way. However Thanks to Nehru Pakistan's pride was restored and Pakistan was allowed to keep part of Kashmir which legally became part of India :salute
 
....and there we go.

Back to chest thumping over Kashmir dispute because the thought of confronting China makes too many Indian knees tremble.
 
The Su-30 is an overmatch for anything in the PAF.

Actually Rob, I don't think that's the case. I have heard the Sukhoi MKI is not all that good as claimed. It is a Russian plane with Israeli Avionics, a Russian plane is not designed to run with Israeli tech. I found a great youtube video of this breakdown, I will post a link if I find it. Rafale now that is an all new different beast, when India inducts the squadron of 36 Rafales then PAF stands no chance, PAF planes become shooting ducks. However as of now, PAF I would even say IAF and PAF will be a close fight.
 
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