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How do you rate Ashley Giles as a spinner?

The_Odd_One

ODI Debutant
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Runs
8,950
54 matches, 143 wickets at an average of 40.60 and strike rate of 85.1 with only 1 5-fer and no 10-fer.

Averages vs:
Australia 57
India 50
SA 55
NZ 36
Pakistan 33
SL 33

He averages 35 in Asia, the home of spin, where Swann averages 25.

How the hell did he end up playing 54 test matches for a strong England team with such mediocre numbers?
 
Was very good at just holding up an end when needed and letting the England pace attack do their work.
 
The King of Spain.

Was probably only selected because there wasn't a better spinner in the domestic circuit at the time.
 
Swann, Panesar?

Were they good enough that early in their career ?

Would have to check domestic stats - also until Swann and Monty to a lesser extent, came along, England were relying heavily on their pacers and didn't really expect the spinner to be a wicket taker.
 
He could bat.

That's why.

Trescothick/Cook/Stewart
Strauss/Atherton
Trott/Vaughan
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Broad (was an all-rounder in those days)

Why did England need his batting with such a strong batting unit?
 
Giles exemplified how poor and bland English cricket was from 1998 to 2004.
 
Trescothick/Cook/Stewart
Strauss/Atherton
Trott/Vaughan
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Broad (was an all-rounder in those days)

Why did England need his batting with such a strong batting unit?

Giles never played a test with Trott, Prior or Broad.

Look at his economy rate, his job was to try and keep it tight at one end and let the seamers rotate from the other end. He was a safe pair of hands and he chipped in some priceless contributions with the bat. Hell, if you're going to claim Broad used to be an all-rounder then so was Giles.
 
He held an end in that All time great English fast bowling track so he did what he was required to do. I'd say most overrated would have to be Anil Kumble
 
Giles never played a test with Trott, Prior or Broad.

Look at his economy rate, his job was to try and keep it tight at one end and let the seamers rotate from the other end. He was a safe pair of hands and he chipped in some priceless contributions with the bat. Hell, if you're going to claim Broad used to be an all-rounder then so was Giles.

Even if you take out Trott, Prior, and Broad, England still had a very decent batting lineup.

Broad has a 169 in tests.

Giles never hit a century, he has like 4 50s in 81 innings. Was he worth keeping in the side for his 40 bowling average and 1 50 in every 20 innings? Even Moeen Ali's stats look like Gary Sobers in front of Giles.
 
Even if you take out Trott, Prior, and Broad, England still had a very decent batting lineup.

Broad has a 169 in tests.

Giles never hit a century, he has like 4 50s in 81 innings. Was he worth keeping in the side for his 40 bowling average and 1 50 in every 20 innings? Even Moeen Ali's stats look like Gary Sobers in front of Giles.

Giles is exactly what England want Moeen to be. A spinner who can hold up an end when needed in England without being expensive and give the pace bowlers a break.
 
Giles is exactly what England want Moeen to be. A spinner who can hold up an end when needed in England without being expensive and give the pace bowlers a break.

Wrong. England never used Giles as an all-rounder. He batted at #8 or even #9. Moeen is treated as a genuine all-rounder. He bats at #7 and was even tried as an opener.
 
The Wheely Bin.
During the period between Underwood and Swann spin bowling was pretty poor in England and around the World generally. The influence of the Windies meant most favoured pace over spin.

Giles pretty much summed up the pattern from Embury, Hemmings, Edmonds, Such and Tufnell etc.
 
stats don't do justice to him. He was a very useful bowler. He also helped England win the 4th Test in 2005 Ashes
 
Even if you take out Trott, Prior, and Broad, England still had a very decent batting lineup.

Broad has a 169 in tests.

Giles never hit a century, he has like 4 50s in 81 innings. Was he worth keeping in the side for his 40 bowling average and 1 50 in every 20 innings? Even Moeen Ali's stats look like Gary Sobers in front of Giles.

Broad has one first class hundred, Giles has three and none of the opposition had taken money to under perform for any of those innings as far as I'm aware.

England's batting lineup was nowhere near as good as it is now, Geraint Jones managed to get 36 test caps for crying out loud and Chris Read was pretty average with the bat. England picked the likes of Ramprakash, Ed Smith and Anthony McGrath in those days. Flintoff batted at 6/7 for England but he'd probably bat at 8/9 in this current team behind Stokes/Woakes/Ali.

Giles was a very important part of that England team and was instrumental in some of their biggest victories. Forget the Ashes where he took big wickets and made vital contributions with the bat, look at the England tour of Pakistan in 2000 which England won in the dark in Karachi.

Saqlain in his prime took 18 wickets at 23.94 at a strike rate of 67.7
Ashley "Worst test spinner ever" Giles took 17 wickets at 24.11 and a strike rate of 64.2
 
He has to spin the ball to qualify as a spinner.

Giles, Ronnie Irani, Robert Croft, Chris Adams, Chris Read.

England had an unbearable team in the 90s.
 
Broad has one first class hundred, Giles has three and none of the opposition had taken money to under perform for any of those innings as far as I'm aware.

England's batting lineup was nowhere near as good as it is now, Geraint Jones managed to get 36 test caps for crying out loud and Chris Read was pretty average with the bat. England picked the likes of Ramprakash, Ed Smith and Anthony McGrath in those days. Flintoff batted at 6/7 for England but he'd probably bat at 8/9 in this current team behind Stokes/Woakes/Ali.

Giles was a very important part of that England team and was instrumental in some of their biggest victories. Forget the Ashes where he took big wickets and made vital contributions with the bat, look at the England tour of Pakistan in 2000 which England won in the dark in Karachi.

Saqlain in his prime took 18 wickets at 23.94 at a strike rate of 67.7
Ashley "Worst test spinner ever" Giles took 17 wickets at 24.11 and a strike rate of 64.2

This.

It seems most didn't watch him bowl and also fail to understand the role he was given in that great England team and have mostly formed opinions based on the statistics. Ashley did the job for England and was the best spin bowler who could bat a bit in the country at the time.
 
He has to spin the ball to qualify as a spinner.

Giles, Ronnie Irani, Robert Croft, Chris Adams, Chris Read.

England had an unbearable team in the 90s.

<iframe width="640" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2mESB4zb3Wg?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

:11:
 
Broad has one first class hundred, Giles has three and none of the opposition had taken money to under perform for any of those innings as far as I'm aware.

England's batting lineup was nowhere near as good as it is now, Geraint Jones managed to get 36 test caps for crying out loud and Chris Read was pretty average with the bat. England picked the likes of Ramprakash, Ed Smith and Anthony McGrath in those days. Flintoff batted at 6/7 for England but he'd probably bat at 8/9 in this current team behind Stokes/Woakes/Ali.

Giles was a very important part of that England team and was instrumental in some of their biggest victories. Forget the Ashes where he took big wickets and made vital contributions with the bat, look at the England tour of Pakistan in 2000 which England won in the dark in Karachi.

Saqlain in his prime took 18 wickets at 23.94 at a strike rate of 67.7
Ashley "Worst test spinner ever" Giles took 17 wickets at 24.11 and a strike rate of 64.2

I do not know what are you talking about.

Giles averages under 30 in only 3 of the 20 series he played. On the other hand, he averages 35+ in 12 of those 20 series. So, for around 60% of the time, his bowling was as good as a part-timer's.

Saqlain's decline started in 2000. For the first time, even in ODIs he averaged 26+ and in tests, he averaged 31 with 88 SR. So, no point in comparing him to Saqlain.
 
I like this. This series we drew vs England has given every Pak supporter a lot of swagger and confidence.

Now we can go around dissing English cricket, Indian cricket, Aussie cricket. Feels good to finally own that right.

We can't do it in ODIs or t20s, but tests are our kingdom. Deserve to be #1. #FeelsGoodToBeKing
 
Actually a bit better than the stats suggest. Particularly with the bat.

But he was largely the beneficiary of a bust-up between Swann and Duncan Fletcher in the early 00s, wherein Swann was then considered permanently unprofessional by Fletcher and thus unselectable until Fletcher himself got sacked and replaced.
 
I remember him holding up one end in tests by bowling mostly at pads (one could say negative lines) and frustrating batsmen, especially the ones who were good against spin and made bulk of their runs against spinners.

Was still effective. If I am not wrong he is the only bowler to get SRT stumped out in tests. He used similar tactics. Remember Sehwag eventually going inside out to hit him over cover.
 
Based on stats alone he wasn't great but he did what Moeen couldn't do and that was go at less than 3 an over, allowing the fast bowlers to rest and rotate.On top of that he was also a very handy batsman.
 
I think Paul Harris and Robin Pietersen were the worse but Giles played long enough to qualify as the worst. It made me cringe when our batsmen used to get out to these bowlers
 
Guys, I am calling him the worst because he played 54 tests which is a huge amount of test in a relatively stronger English team which had better options.

If someone averages 50+ in 9 of their 20 series, they have to be incredibly bad.
 
everything about england, australia and india is so over blown. if u are not the best in the world then u are the worst.

look at this guy for example. played in sub continent almost exclusively and over guys like herath and other far superior spinners purely because he was on good terms with arjuna back then.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/Australia/content/player/48469.html

Dharamasena was never the first choice spinner. He was a support bowler to Murali.

Also, SL historically had the worst bowling attack of all teams. I think Murali is their only bowler who averages below 25.

England on the other hand had great bowlers from 2000 onwards.
 
I like this. This series we drew vs England has given every Pak supporter a lot of swagger and confidence.

Now we can go around dissing English cricket, Indian cricket, Aussie cricket. Feels good to finally own that right.

We can't do it in ODIs or t20s, but tests are our kingdom. Deserve to be #1. #FeelsGoodToBeKing

My other thread was about no Pakistani batsmen averaging 35+ in SA so I did not create this thread to mock players from other teams.

It is a genuine question that how come somebody with 40 bowling average (35+ in 12 series and 50+ in 9 series out of the total 20 series that he played) got to play in a strong English team.
 
Was just a slow bowler who rarely turned the ball. One thing he was good at was frustrating the batsman with a negative line and cutting off his scoring areas. But England didn't really have many options at the time so I guess he was their best choice.
 
Very ordinary compared to the standards set by the world class spinners of his age,

Murali
Warne
Kumble
Kaneria
Harbajhan
Vettori

But he did his job in the Ashes, and thats really all that matters for England
 
Was just a slow bowler who rarely turned the ball. One thing he was good at was frustrating the batsman with a negative line and cutting off his scoring areas. But England didn't really have many options at the time so I guess he was their best choice.

IIRC didn't Giles bowl around the wicket to Tendulkar in the rough on leg stump on an India tour in the early 2000s ?

I know many lambasted Nasser and Giles for such negative tactics but it did lead to his dismissal.

As for Giles - look he was a holding bowler that allowed England's fast bowlers a rest. Obviously if you look on numbers alone he was nothing impressive but he did a job until better replacements like Swann and Panesar could be found. Pretty much what Moeen's role should be as a bowler as [MENTION=139981]HitWicket[/MENTION] mentioned.

He also played a crucial part in England's victory in their tour of Pakistan in 2000, I remember Inzy horribly misjudging a ball from Giles in that 2nd inns collapse in Karachi.
 
IIRC didn't Giles bowl around the wicket to Tendulkar in the rough on leg stump on an India tour in the early 2000s ?

I know many lambasted Nasser and Giles for such negative tactics but it did lead to his dismissal.

As for Giles - look he was a holding bowler that allowed England's fast bowlers a rest. Obviously if you look on numbers alone he was nothing impressive but he did a job until better replacements like Swann and Panesar could be found. Pretty much what Moeen's role should be as a bowler as [MENTION=139981]HitWicket[/MENTION] mentioned.

He also played a crucial part in England's victory in their tour of Pakistan in 2000, I remember Inzy horribly misjudging a ball from Giles in that 2nd inns collapse in Karachi.

You do not need a full time bowler to hold one end when he can't bat in top 7.
 
You do not need a full time bowler to hold one end when he can't bat in top 7.

You can afford it when you can go in with a world class pace attack most of the time. Better than going with someone like Moeen who you can't bring on just to give the pacers a break a lot of the time because he'll get smashed around at an uneconomical rate.
 
Kids these days.. He deserved 50 test matches for his swag alone. Don't remember watching him bowl without his sun glasses. EVER.
On cricket, he was a fighter in the Anil Kumble mould. Kept bowling for sessions on end. Took his batting very seriously too.
 
You can afford it when you can go in with a world class pace attack most of the time. Better than going with someone like Moeen who you can't bring on just to give the pacers a break a lot of the time because he'll get smashed around at an uneconomical rate.

England will take Moeen over Giles in a heartbeat. There is a reason Rashid is not playing for England despite him being a better bowler than both Moeen and Giles.
 
England will take Moeen over Giles in a heartbeat. There is a reason Rashid is not playing for England despite him being a better bowler than both Moeen and Giles.

As a bowler Giles anyday over Moeen in an English side.
 
Ashley Giles, did what was required of him in the English side. He was not a great spinner but fit the bill for England. He kept things quiet and picked up some crucial wickets. England did not have too many options till Swann came along.
 
In an era of poor english spinners giles did a job for england His stats are awful but dont show the context he played under

His job was to keep things tight, frustrate batsman and pick up the odd wicket whilst the fast bowlers got rested and he did that well

A major plus was that he was a decent lower order bat and a good fielder

There were hardly any decent english spinners around at that time You had to watch cricket in that era to know why he played
 
IIRC didn't Giles bowl around the wicket to Tendulkar in the rough on leg stump on an India tour in the early 2000s ?

I know many lambasted Nasser and Giles for such negative tactics but it did lead to his dismissal.

As for Giles - look he was a holding bowler that allowed England's fast bowlers a rest. Obviously if you look on numbers alone he was nothing impressive but he did a job until better replacements like Swann and Panesar could be found. Pretty much what Moeen's role should be as a bowler as [MENTION=139981]HitWicket[/MENTION] mentioned.

He also played a crucial part in England's victory in their tour of Pakistan in 2000, I remember Inzy horribly misjudging a ball from Giles in that 2nd inns collapse in Karachi.

Yep. This was in the 2001/02 season. I think a year earlier Giles played a crucial role in helping England win a series in Pakistan and troubling Inzi throughout. Saqi had actually outbowled him but Giles played a more pivotal role . And then he troubled Sachin with his left arm angle . I think it was only with the likes of Giles and Vettori that Sla's became widely regarded and that's why you see so many Sla's in cricket these days.
 
He was played because he was supposed to bowl tight lines and frustrate batsmen.

At times contribute with the bat.

Poms did not play spinner as an attacking option that time.
 
Guys, I am calling him the worst because he played 54 tests which is a huge amount of test in a relatively stronger English team which had better options.

If someone averages 50+ in 9 of their 20 series, they have to be incredibly bad.

No one will deny that Giles was a mediocre bowler, but I think you need to understand his role a bit better.

He wasn't a wicket-taker but he did help choke the batsmen. He bowled tight.

As far as the comparison with Moeen is concerned, no doubt Moeen is by far the better batsman, but his Economy Rate makes him a liability with the ball.
 
Dharamasena was never the first choice spinner. He was a support bowler to Murali.

Also, SL historically had the worst bowling attack of all teams. I think Murali is their only bowler who averages below 25.

England on the other hand had great bowlers from 2000 onwards.

dharmasena was one of the top 4 bowlers in the team just like giles was.
 
Some of u guys r taking his stats without any proper context. Ashley from England and Paul Harris from SA, both of them r similar types of bowlers. Their role for their respective teams wasn't to take wickets, their role was to block one end up and let the pacers do the rest of the job. Simple.
 
Actually a bit better than the stats suggest. Particularly with the bat.

But he was largely the beneficiary of a bust-up between Swann and Duncan Fletcher in the early 00s, wherein Swann was then considered permanently unprofessional by Fletcher and thus unselectable until Fletcher himself got sacked and replaced.

Swann professionalism didn't change much. Considering his retirement mid way in a series.
 
Any Pakistan supporter who criticizes Ashley Giles must understand that by so doing so he is dismissing Zulfiqar Babar too.

Here is the direct comparison:

BATTING AVERAGES
Ashley Giles 20.81
Zulfiqar Babar 16.00

BOWLING AVERAGES
Ashley Giles 40.60
Zulfiqar Babar 38.82
 
Trescothick/Cook/Stewart
Strauss/Atherton
Trott/Vaughan
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood
Prior
Flintoff
Broad (was an all-rounder in those days)

Why did England need his batting with such a strong batting unit?

Broad started his first class career in 2005 , he wasnt an option back then. The question is , was there a better spinner in english cricket then?
 
Broad started his first class career in 2005 , he wasnt an option back then. The question is , was there a better spinner in english cricket then?
There is also the question of whether a Giles or a Moeen is actually a BETTER spin bowling selection outside Asia than a specialist spinner.

I maintain that a spinner outside Asia is basically a specialist batsman for the first 3 innings of every Test. Yasir Shah is the best spinner in the world, but just averaged 40 across 4 Tests in England.

The tragedy of Usman Qadir is that he has been discarded for not being a good enough spinner to be a number 1 spinner in Asia.

But that is not what is needed in modern cricket. In modern cricket, there is more utility in a Mushtaq Mohammad than an Intikhab Alam.

Usman Qadir had the raw materials to go on to become a player who could bat at number 7 in Tests and have the following typical Test figures outside Asia

BATTING
Innings 1: 60
Innings 2: 20

BOWLING
Innings 1: 20-8-70-1
Innings 2: 20-8-70-1
Innings 3: 20-8-60-2
Innings 4: 30-12-60-3

That would allow:

1) a Test batting average of 40, and
2) a Test bowling average of 37.

I would argue that that is more useful than what Yasir Shah or R Ashwin offers outside Asia.
 
He was famous for 2 things:

1) Bowling negative line outside leg stump and frustrate batsmen.

2) Only bowler to get Sachin Tendulkar out stumped. Tendulkar got stumped out only once in his entire career when he finally got frustrated and throw his wicket due to Giles negative bowling.
 
Any Pakistan supporter who criticizes Ashley Giles must understand that by so doing so he is dismissing Zulfiqar Babar too.

Here is the direct comparison:

BATTING AVERAGES
Ashley Giles 20.81
Zulfiqar Babar 16.00

BOWLING AVERAGES
Ashley Giles 40.60
Zulfiqar Babar 38.82

The problem is that Zulfiqar Babar is in his late 30s, Giles was not.
Second, nobody wants Babar in the team to begin with.
 
No one will deny that Giles was a mediocre bowler, but I think you need to understand his role a bit better.

He wasn't a wicket-taker but he did help choke the batsmen. He bowled tight.

As far as the comparison with Moeen is concerned, no doubt Moeen is by far the better batsman, but his Economy Rate makes him a liability with the ball.

I do not agree to this theory of bowler holding up one end. The primary job of bowler is to take wickets in tests. This is not ODIs where you are worried about the run rate. There is a reason strike rate is given importance in tests more than in ODIs.
 
Broad started his first class career in 2005 , he wasnt an option back then. The question is , was there a better spinner in english cricket then?

Giles played from 1998 to 2006.

These batsmen played a good number of games during those 8 years:

Trescothick
Strauss
Vaughan
Thorpe
Stewart
Atherton
Hussain
Collingwood
Flintoff

It is still a very decent batting lineup.
 
Giles played from 1998 to 2006.

These batsmen played a good number of games during those 8 years:

Trescothick
Strauss
Vaughan
Thorpe
Stewart
Atherton
Hussain
Collingwood
Flintoff

It is still a very decent batting lineup.
What I am asking is , did england have a better spinner than Giles back then in their country.
 
I do not agree to this theory of bowler holding up one end. The primary job of bowler is to take wickets in tests. This is not ODIs where you are worried about the run rate. There is a reason strike rate is given importance in tests more than in ODIs.

The primary job of a bowler is whatever the captain and coach tell him it is.
 
Then I guess Aamir did his job! :)

As an opening bowler in a test match your job is most likely going to be to get the ball swinging and get some early wickets.

As the sole spinner in a country not reputed for having many world class spinners alongside a strong pace attack your job is most likely going to be different.
 
As an opening bowler in a test match your job is most likely going to be to get the ball swinging and get some early wickets.

As the sole spinner in a country not reputed for having many world class spinners alongside a strong pace attack your job is most likely going to be different.

I was referring to the 2010 tour but it was a joke.
 
Ashley Giles has been appointed ECB’s Managing Director of England Men’s Cricket.

The former England international spinner, who is currently Sport Director at Warwickshire County Cricket Club, replaces Andrew Strauss in the role, who stepped down in October.

Giles, 45, will be responsible for the long-term strategy of the England men’s cricket teams and the performance pathways leading into the international teams. He will also be responsible for developing the right coaching and management structure to support it.
The appointment follows a month-long formal recruitment process led by ECB Chief Executive Officer, Tom Harrison.

Giles played for Warwickshire for 13 years and, following his retirement in 2007, became the director of cricket, leading them to the championship title in 2012. In November of that year, he left to become England’s limited-overs coach before taking over as the head coach and cricket director at Lancashire two years later.

In his first season at Lancashire he won the Blast and led the county to promotion to Division One of the County Championship.
Giles played 54 Tests for England and later worked as a national team selector from 2008 to 2014.

He returned to Warwickshire as Sport Director in January 2017 and he has led the transition of the men’s playing squad, which has included the recruitment of several talented young cricketers and the graduation of a number of young players from the Academy to the senior ranks. The men’s team also reached the final of the Blast in 2017 and returned to Division One of the Specsavers County Championship at the first attempt by being crowned champions of Division Two in September.

Commenting on the appointment, Tom Harrison, ECB Chief Executive Officer, said:

“We were fortunate throughout this process to interview some of the most talented and respected people in the game.
“Ashley was the standout candidate amongst a very strong field. He will bring a fresh perspective to the role and build on the excellent work carried out by Andrew Strauss over the past three and a half years. He has a tremendous passion for England cricket, extensive knowledge of our county game, and a wealth of experience from playing at the highest level to becoming a respected leader in the sport.

“He will lead the England men’s teams forward in what is a pivotal year with an ICC Men’s Cricket World Cup and the Specsavers Ashes Series, both on home soil. This is a key appointment and we are excited about Ashley’s arrival.”

Speaking of his appointment, Ashley Giles said:

“I am delighted to be joining the ECB and shaping the future of England cricket throughout the men’s game.

“I am very grateful for the opportunity and excited about working with some talented people. The legacy left by Andrew Strauss has put the performance programme in a stable place. It is fundamental that I facilitate the great work currently being carried out, meet our objectives and help our sport achieve great things in the coming years both domestically and internationally.

“I believe it is important for the game to have a strong international setup, which is showing great promise in what will be a significant year for our red and white ball teams leading into the ICC Men’s Cricket World Cup this summer and The Ashes. The next 12 months could transform the game like no other time in recent memory.”

“Finally, I would like thank Warwickshire County Cricket Club and in particular Chairman, Norman Gascoigne, and Chief Executive, Neil Snowball, for their guidance and support during my time at Edgbaston.”

Giles will officially start in January ahead of England’s tour of the Caribbean.
 
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