How does the present-day Jasprit Bumrah compare with the likes of Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis?

[BCCI-Enforcer]

These boys don't even believe their own arguments. Their saying such and such to prove why bumrah is no 1.

He is making weak argument here from emotions.number 1 is clear to your eyes if you watch match you don't need to find proofs.

Watch the bowling and you will see, even your Aussie ex skipper Pointing mention Bumrah spell as greatest.

 

[Pakpak]

What's funny is Indians fans being so intolerable despite:

-their population outnumbering everyone's else by 5 in Pakistan's case to 10 to TWENTY times more in other countries'
-all their power and ad revenue and everything is simply because of their population. Nothing else or nothing fancy. You give Pakistan or Kenya 1.5 billion people and we'd do the same
-Despite the above.....they have the sum total of nothing. As people can tell from my old posts I consider T20s trash. So after everything they have only one extra WC. That too at home. And despite home advantage now numerous times have choked everytime. Forget home advantage, everything is so rigged in their favour. They know before every tourney what semi-final they will play in - other teams don't. So India then selects eg extra spinners or extra pacers knowing the pitch of a semi venue while no other team has this luxury. Look at the 2023 WC. How utterly India rigged the pitches, promoting Cummins to take pictures of the pitch before hand before the final.


-Despite everything and the above, despite how awful and low Pakistan have been and how we did not play in our own home for a decade nearly, despite us never getting any home advantage in a WC since 87 and 96.....we only have one WC less than them. That's it.


Yet.

Despite all this.

YET look at the attitude and the total arrogance of these lot you'd think you're dealing with the Madrid of cricket.

 

[mominsaigol]

What's funny is Indians fans being so intolerable despite:

-their population outnumbering everyone's else by 5 in Pakistan's case to 10 to TWENTY times more in other countries'
-all their power and ad revenue and everything is simply because of their population. Nothing else or nothing fancy. You give Pakistan or Kenya 1.5 billion people and we'd do the same
-Despite the above.....they have the sum total of nothing. As people can tell from my old posts I consider T20s trash. So after everything they have only one extra WC. That too at home. And despite home advantage now numerous times have choked everytime. Forget home advantage, everything is so rigged in their favour. They know before every tourney what semi-final they will play in - other teams don't. So India then selects eg extra spinners or extra pacers knowing the pitch of a semi venue while no other team has this luxury. Look at the 2023 WC. How utterly India rigged the pitches, promoting Cummins to take pictures of the pitch before hand before the final.


-Despite everything and the above, despite how awful and low Pakistan have been and how we did not play in our own home for a decade nearly, despite us never getting any home advantage in a WC since 87 and 96.....we only have one WC less than them. That's it.


Yet.

Despite all this.

YET look at the attitude and the total arrogance of these lot you'd think you're dealing with the Madrid of cricket.

The problem with India and their team is that they not only endorse their fans behaviour the revel in it.

Plus the rigging of pitches is inexcusable.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

One of the reasons I didn't liek 5fers in winning cause arguments is because it takes away from efforts like Bumrah did over some of the tests here @Buffet

Despite the old adage that "bowlers win test matches" it is clear that it is a team game. India won last time because of bowlers and Pant, and they lost because of too many passengers in batting line up ( according to Indian fans this time). That defeat shouldn't take away from Bumrah record. In most test matches it has to determine what was the cause of winning ( or opposition losing), you can make argument either way.

The theory presented has been used by other posters to mock Wasim unnecessarily although I dont believe it was your intention.

Wasim has two pretty good tours of Aus.

In 1990 he was MOTS for a series which included a 10fer in one test and a 5fer, a 50 and 100 in the next!

In 1995 he took 14 wickets in 5 innings at 19 compared to Mcgrath who took 15 in 6 innings at 22 ( Warne was the supreme bowler across the series).

His record is stellar in Australia during those series. Pakistan couldnt get over the line but we cant write off his performances because team didn't win.

 

[sweep_shot]

What's funny is Indians fans being so intolerable despite:

-their population outnumbering everyone's else by 5 in Pakistan's case to 10 to TWENTY times more in other countries'
-all their power and ad revenue and everything is simply because of their population. Nothing else or nothing fancy. You give Pakistan or Kenya 1.5 billion people and we'd do the same
-Despite the above.....they have the sum total of nothing. As people can tell from my old posts I consider T20s trash. So after everything they have only one extra WC. That too at home. And despite home advantage now numerous times have choked everytime. Forget home advantage, everything is so rigged in their favour. They know before every tourney what semi-final they will play in - other teams don't. So India then selects eg extra spinners or extra pacers knowing the pitch of a semi venue while no other team has this luxury. Look at the 2023 WC. How utterly India rigged the pitches, promoting Cummins to take pictures of the pitch before hand before the final.


-Despite everything and the above, despite how awful and low Pakistan have been and how we did not play in our own home for a decade nearly, despite us never getting any home advantage in a WC since 87 and 96.....we only have one WC less than them. That's it.


Yet.

Despite all this.

YET look at the attitude and the total arrogance of these lot you'd think you're dealing with the Madrid of cricket.

Despite them being the richest board and despite ICC pampering them like a spoiled princess, they haven't won many trophies. They won just 1 ICC trophy in the past 10 years.

They mostly dominate group stages and bilateral games. Even that may stop now as players from their golden generation are retiring.

 

[mominsaigol]

Despite them being the richest board and despite ICC pampering them like a spoiled princess, they haven't won many trophies. They won just 1 ICC trophy in the past 10 years.

They mostly dominate group stages and bilateral games. Even that may stop now as players from their golden generation are retiring.

Meanwhile aus has already won 3 cups since 2020.

2021: T20 wc
2023: WC
2023: Wtc

Very likely they'll win Wtc 2025 as well. No clue about CT but wouldn't be surprised if they grab that as well.

 

[RexRex]

What's funny is Indians fans being so intolerable despite:

-their population outnumbering everyone's else by 5 in Pakistan's case to 10 to TWENTY times more in other countries'
-all their power and ad revenue and everything is simply because of their population. Nothing else or nothing fancy. You give Pakistan or Kenya 1.5 billion people and we'd do the same
-Despite the above.....they have the sum total of nothing. As people can tell from my old posts I consider T20s trash. So after everything they have only one extra WC. That too at home. And despite home advantage now numerous times have choked everytime. Forget home advantage, everything is so rigged in their favour. They know before every tourney what semi-final they will play in - other teams don't. So India then selects eg extra spinners or extra pacers knowing the pitch of a semi venue while no other team has this luxury. Look at the 2023 WC. How utterly India rigged the pitches, promoting Cummins to take pictures of the pitch before hand before the final.


-Despite everything and the above, despite how awful and low Pakistan have been and how we did not play in our own home for a decade nearly, despite us never getting any home advantage in a WC since 87 and 96.....we only have one WC less than them. That's it.


Yet.

Despite all this.

YET look at the attitude and the total arrogance of these lot you'd think you're dealing with the Madrid of cricket.

^ This an almighty whingefest

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

The "Pyjama League Generation" cracking jokes about Wasim Akram is like someone who has never seen the ocean trying to teach dolphins how to swim.

Personally my best test batsman and bowler list starts from Sachin and Wasim respectively.

 

[Buffet]

One of the reasons I didn't liek 5fers in winning cause arguments is because it takes away from efforts like Bumrah did over some of the tests here @Buffet

@DeadlyVenom

It's not 'either' - 'or' exclusive criterion. You can appreciate 5-fers in win and you can also appreciate super human effort in tough tours wihtout wins. All of them will show up in numbers somewhere.

It simply to show impact they have had in results in tough tours. To see if bowlers changed the result of match by bowling well, nothing better than taking lots of 5-fers in in tough tours and win test to show impact.

In addition to that, you can also see what they actually did against good teams home and away without looking at 5-fers in win. Superhuman effort will be included in those numbers and it will show up for bowlers. You can also see how they did agaisnt heir peers. You can add some more if you want.


Usual suspects show up somewhere in these lists. Not necessarily in all of them but they show up.

• Impact in tough tours : 5-fers in wins away
• Over all performance against good teams : Sub 25 avg against top 4-5 teams
• Away performance against good teams : Sub 25 avg in tough tours, not looking at wins here at all
• Relative high performance against your peer group : Are you top 1-2 bowlers in your era?

If you can't show up in any single list above, then I think we are dealing with tier 2 great test pacers rather than an elite/tier 1. It's quite possible to have circumtances where you miss to appear in some, but if you miss all of them then we are torturning the logic.

I like to borrow concept from all different fields and use it in my life regularly, thanks to Charlie Munger who died recently. He literally changed my life. In Engineering, there is concept called triangulation. If eveything points to the same conclusion then you are closer to reality. Not necessarily 100% correct, but pretty close.

For exmaple, if we see above criterion. IK has 5-fers in win in tough tours. He also has good performance against good teams. In contrast, Wasim and Waqar falls short in every single criterion. When all said and done, bowlers job is to take wickets quickly, cheaply and help their team win tests against good teams.

IK belong with elite test bowler, Wasim/Waqar don't belong there. That's how I see it. That's without having benefit of watching IK's career. I wrongly used to rate Wasim as a better test bowler than IK because I saw Wasim troubling batsmen often and didn't even see IK's career. I have changed my opinion after looking at actual output of bowlers. In past , I never bothered to look closely at 80s era.

None of it meant to downplay Wasim/Waqar versus IK. But you have to point out outputs of players and argue for and against when comparing. Many here start taking it as insult so I refrain from engaging with them. We may differ in our opinions on many topics, but you have been thoughful, civil and ask good questions. Thank you.

Due to good cricket ongoing , I was ignoring my work a bit, need to get back to that now.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Bumrah Series by Series in Aus - i have posted all round stats bearing in mind Bumrah can't bat but just to show Wasims utility.



here is Wasim series by Series




If we remove the third series which is 15 years after his debut!! Here is why longevity is important for bowler. Bumrah will not have a 15 year career by any metric. How would he fare if he came to australia in 7 years time after clocking more miles on his legs?

here is wasim first two series ( less matches but not his fault)




Yaaro those that completely are writing Wasim on are being too harsh. What an impact in these series.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

@Buffet our posts overlapped mines wasn't a response to your latest one..was typing it and missed yours. Will read in detail but it has been a very thought provoking thread overall!

 

[mominsaigol]

As amjid javed said stats without context are meaningless. Their plenty of examples in cricket where the scoreboard claims the player played rubbish yet if you actually watched those games you'd know that's not true at all.

I'll list an example

 A) Australia vs India 2015 sf ,Mitchell Johnson 2 for 50

On paper it looks nothing special as stark, Hazelwood, faulkner all have better numbers on that day, However Johnson took the wickets of rohit and kohli who were in their absolute primes and had chased 370 scores in the past.

Faulkner only cleaned up the tail, taking ashwin, mohit and raina's wicket when the game was lost, done and dusted and india had no way to come back.

In hindsight not only did Johnson take the big fish, He also has kohli play a knock of 1 of 13 and rohit play a knock of 34 of 48.

Anyone who watched that game live would know that rohit and kohli couldn't attack him and were struggling and they lost their wickets due to scoreboard pressure and RR creeping up. Johnson only got tonked once these 2 departed and india had lost the match, mostly cause he probs took it easy and was a bit more relaxed.

But stats won't tell you this. They'll tell you that faulker and stark were the 2 best bowlers due to economy and wickets even though stark's economy was achieved due to bullying the tail and faulker got those qickwts when india was done and duated.

I'm not taking credit awau from those 2, infact in 2015 starc and faulkner were >>>>>> 2015 Johnson however Johnson was clearly the best bowler in that game but again stats will tell you he was one of the worst.

@Pakpak @sweep_shot

 

[anikrc1]

As amjid javed said stats without context are meaningless. Their plenty of examples in cricket where the scoreboard claims the player played rubbish yet if you actually watched those games you'd know that's not true at all.

I'll list an example

 A) Australia vs India 2015 sf ,Mitchell Johnson 2 for 50

On paper it looks nothing special as stark, Hazelwood, faulkner all have better numbers on that day, However Johnson took the wickets of rohit and kohli who were in their absolute primes and had chased 370 scores in the past.

Faulkner only cleaned up the tail, taking ashwin, mohit and raina's wicket when the game was lost, done and dusted and india had no way to come back.

In hindsight not only did Johnson take the big fish, He also has kohli play a knock of 1 of 13 and rohit play a knock of 34 of 48.

Anyone who watched that game live would know that rohit and kohli couldn't attack him and were struggling and they lost their wickets due to scoreboard pressure and RR creeping up. Johnson only got tonked once these 2 departed and india had lost the match, mostly cause he probs took it easy and was a bit more relaxed.

But stats won't tell you this. They'll tell you that faulker and stark were the 2 best bowlers due to economy and wickets even though stark's economy was achieved due to bullying the tail and faulker got those qickwts when india was done and duated.

I'm not taking credit awau from those 2, infact in 2015 starc and faulkner were >>>>>> 2015 Johnson however Johnson was clearly the best bowler in that game but again stats will tell you he was one of the worst.

@Pakpak @sweep_shot

But Bumrah has plenty of impact as well. Two won series in Australia, drawn series in england and south Africa. T-20 world cup win. He was the best bowler in all of them.

 

[mominsaigol]

But Bumrah has plenty of impact as well. Two won series in Australia, drawn series in england and south Africa. T-20 world cup win. He was the best bowler in all of them.

No one is denying he's a bad bowler. But Indians overdo it like they overdo everything.

First Sachin is the father, now bumrah .

Actually everyone is a father from Dhoni to Laxman or even Azhar

 

[anikrc1]

No one is denying he's a bad bowler. But Indians overdo it like they overdo everything.

First Sachin is the father, now bumrah .

Actually everyone is a father from Dhoni to Laxman or even Azhar

Who has more impact? Actually, like you are doing and saying that every Indian loss is Bumrah's fault, do the same for waqar and wasim and then see.

 

[kron]

I'm not talking about 2018. The last decent SA batter was Elgar and even he wasn't world class.

So now you admit that SA batting is in transition? Exactly the point I was making. Not a single world class batsmen in it.

It's funny how Indians get offended why I say that SA, pak, WI, SL and Bangladesh dint have a single World class batsmen between them. Yet Indian take it as a slur against your bowling (stop playing the victim)

Markham and van dursen are not world class.

Actually read what I actually asked.

You said the team is rubbish it's not. Bowling is absolutely top class..

Batting for those sa conditions again I repeat is not weak at all.

Even greats from 2000 struggled on spicy wickets alot. All stat padded on flat wickets

 

[kron]

What's funny is Indians fans being so intolerable despite:

-their population outnumbering everyone's else by 5 in Pakistan's case to 10 to TWENTY times more in other countries'
-all their power and ad revenue and everything is simply because of their population. Nothing else or nothing fancy. You give Pakistan or Kenya 1.5 billion people and we'd do the same
-Despite the above.....they have the sum total of nothing. As people can tell from my old posts I consider T20s trash. So after everything they have only one extra WC. That too at home. And despite home advantage now numerous times have choked everytime. Forget home advantage, everything is so rigged in their favour. They know before every tourney what semi-final they will play in - other teams don't. So India then selects eg extra spinners or extra pacers knowing the pitch of a semi venue while no other team has this luxury. Look at the 2023 WC. How utterly India rigged the pitches, promoting Cummins to take pictures of the pitch before hand before the final.


-Despite everything and the above, despite how awful and low Pakistan have been and how we did not play in our own home for a decade nearly, despite us never getting any home advantage in a WC since 87 and 96.....we only have one WC less than them. That's it.


Yet.

Despite all this.

YET look at the attitude and the total arrogance of these lot you'd think you're dealing with the Madrid of cricket.

4 world cups to 2
2 champions trophies to 1
7 Asian cups to?

India is a poor country still. Very few people actually have the financial backing to play domestic cricket

This population comparison Is a moot point.

Average Indian is still poor and corruption is rife in India. Such a rubbish notion, using population as a metric to berate the achievements of a cricketing nation. Total logical fallacy. As if 1.5 billion have access to playing first class cricket lmao.

There is so much red tape around Indian cricket. We are not rich like Australia that has access to AIS and strong school system that promotes sport.

Cricket even though it's popular, it will be always be the last resort option for the average India. Most can't even afford cricketing gear lol.

 

[kron]

No one is denying he's a bad bowler. But Indians overdo it like they overdo everything.

First Sachin is the father, now bumrah .

Actually everyone is a father from Dhoni to Laxman or even Azhar

Not BAD bowler. Best bowler.

Best from Asia ever
Second only to imran ans that too due to longevity only. Ability wise and impact wise he is already better than all.

You can agree ro disagree.

 

[mominsaigol]

Who has more impact? Actually, like you are doing and saying that every Indian loss is Bumrah's fault, do the same for waqar and wasim and then see.

More impact? Wasim won a cup for his country and was mom in the final compared to Bumrah who went wicketless and bowled a no ball in ct 2017. Let's not even talk about his chokes againat England, Aus or anytime papa Travis or smith decide to come back into form and just remove him from the occasions.

Latham and Williamson run circles around him half the time.

 

[mominsaigol]

Not BAD bowler. Best bowler.

Best from Asia ever
Second only to imran ans that too due to longevity only. Ability wise and impact wise he is already better than all.

You can agree ro disagree.

I disagree. Their is no agree

 

[kron]

I disagree. Their is no agree

I disagree with your notion too.

And yes bumrah then rest overall in terms of impact skill ability everything except longevity.

No namooma can change that.

 

[mominsaigol]

2004 scg knock was sublime too.Laxman scored 178 .After the collapse at mcg in 3rd match , there was a similar situation at scg on day 2 morning. Laxman smacked Brett Lee and Gillespie around the park for glorious batting.u can ignore the trolls or liars.

Why are you latching onto a few atg knocks?

Why does laxman avg 46 in test cricket despite being a specialist bat?

infact Travis head has already played more atg knocks then laxman has in his whole career but because he ain't Indian you guys lie about him.

As I said Indians have no clue about cricket. Their only good for burning down stadiums.

 

[mominsaigol]

I disagree with your notion too.

And yes bumrah then rest overall in terms of impact skill ability everything except longevity.

No namooma can change that.

You can disagree. It doesn't matter lol. When do Indians genuinely agree with me?

Even when the truth is smackdabbed in their face they'll find some excuse eventually.

I predicted Travis vs Jaiswal months back and now the new narratives are that he's 23, head is htb and he'll have a better career.

Indians believe more runs, more centuries, higher avg = Better player but then will hypocritically ignore that for laxman .

Head has already played more impact innings then 95% of Indian batters in history with very few being > him like dravid, Sachin, kohli( in odi), all this from a batter who's a virtual infant in international cricket.

This shows how low the standards are.

Not to mention fabricating lies such as SA is a weak team and then listing bavuma as a world class batter the moment amjid javed asked the question

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Why didn't he bowled? Is he injured or some niggles?

 

[anikrc1]

More impact? Wasim won a cup for his country and was mom in the final compared to Bumrah who went wicketless and bowled a no ball in ct 2017. Let's not even talk about his chokes againat England, Aus or anytime papa Travis or smith decide to come back into form and just remove him from the occasions.

Latham and Williamson run circles around him half the time.

Yes a 46 avg test batter who was more inconsistent then fakhar zaman, managed to play a few atg innings followed by being a rubbish odi player is suddenly praised and overglorfied.

No wonder Mamoon rips you lot to shreds. Playing a few atf innings doesn't matter. Azhar alo has a 200 in aus lol against peak stark, Hazelwood etc. Doesn't mean he's an atg bat.

46 is a very good test average.

 

[anikrc1]

More impact? Wasim won a cup for his country and was mom in the final compared to Bumrah who went wicketless and bowled a no ball in ct 2017. Let's not even talk about his chokes againat England, Aus or anytime papa Travis or smith decide to come back into form and just remove him from the occasions.

Latham and Williamson run circles around him half the time.

Bumrah has also won a cup for India and was motm in the final. Wasim and Waqar lost home series to Australia, Srilanka, Zimbabwe, England and South Africa.
Head has won only one series against India and lost 2. Smith has won 2 and lost 4.

 

[mominsaigol]

Bumrah has also won a cup for India and was motm in the final. Wasim and Waqar lost home series to Australia, Srilanka, Zimbabwe, England and South Africa.
Head has won only one series against India and lost 2. Smith has won 2 and lost 4.

Bumrah won a t20 wc which is easier to win as you only bowl 4 overs lol.

Where are his odi records?

 

[anikrc1]

Bumrah won a t20 wc which is easier to win as you only bowl 4 overs lol.

Where are his odi records?

Bumrah has great record in both the world cup he played. But why does having 4 overs mean it is easier? That means he has less overs to influence the game.

 

[anikrc1]

De villers wasn't an all format batsmen. He was totally rubbish in t20. Infact deapite his aggressive play style, t20 was the one format he never figured out beyond IPL and franchise games.

He even shuffled to t20 opening once and flopped.

By all format batters, I mean batters who are equally good in all formats. For example Warner is equally good in every format. He doesn't avg 50 in tests because all format batters typically don't.

If a batter avergaes 50 in test, I guarantee you they are probably rubbish in t20.

Which is the case for root, Smith, de villers and others.

And 46 avg is rubbish, furthermore what's funny is that he's really a 40 to 42 avg batter who's stats got inflated by one hit miracle wonders.

Good to know you think Damien Martyn, Clive lloyd or Ian chappel were rubbish batsmen.

 

[kron]

Bumrah won a t20 wc which is easier to win as you only bowl 4 overs lol.

Where are his odi records?

Bhai go have a look at wasim and waqara record. It's lower than madan lal in world cups.

Wasi. Akram ia not even in top 20
Loooooooooool

Lmao

Looooooool

@Vikram1989
@Buffet

Waqar is bang 20 below madan lal and zak khan.

Not that I rate the madan and zak over wasim and Waqar. But winning world cup alone doesn't matter is what I am saying. Performance impact matters more.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Bhai go have a look at wasim and waqara record. It's lower than madan lal in world cups.

Wasi. Akram ia not even in top 20
Loooooooooool

Lmao

Looooooool

@Vikram1989
@Buffet

Waqar is bang 20 below madan lal and zak khan.

Not that I rate the madan and zak over wasim and Waqar. But winning world cup alone doesn't matter is what I am saying. Performance impact matters more.

This is where "world cup records" get silly.

Wasim bowled his team to a world cup victory and a world cup final.

Who cares about records in random world cup group games.

 

[mominsaigol]

Bhai go have a look at wasim and waqara record. It's lower than madan lal in world cups.

Wasi. Akram ia not even in top 20
Loooooooooool

Lmao

Looooooool

@Vikram1989
@Buffet

Waqar is bang 20 below madan lal and zak khan.

Not that I rate the madan and zak over wasim and Waqar. But winning world cup alone doesn't matter is what I am saying. Performance impact matters more.

But winning world cup alone doesn't matter is what I am saying. Performance impact matters more.

Indians use this argument everytime they rewatch wc 2023 lol.

 

[kron]

This is where "world cup records" get silly.

Wasim bowled his team to a world cup victory and a world cup final.

Who cares about records in random world cup group games.

By that logic kohli won india a wc too by performing in thr final by scoring a crucial 36 yet everyone knows that I don't rate that guy one bit.

There was a saffer born kiwi grant elliot who destroyed SA in semis. Yet no one rates him as the best ever

Same with gambir. He won the wc for India in 2 different formats. Is he the best ever batsman?

 

[kron]

But winning world cup alone doesn't matter is what I am saying. Performance impact matters more.

Indians use this argument everytime they rewatch wc 2023 lol.

There was a saffer born kiwi grant elliot who destroyed SA in semis. Yet no one rates him as the best ever

Same with gambir. He won the wc for India in 2 different formats. Is he the best ever batsman?

Even kohli wom world cup and champions trophy

So kohli >> wasim now?

And he won another t20 wc too. Is he a better player than Head in t20? Just cause he won 2 world cups.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

By that logic kohli won india a wc too by performing in thr final by scoring a crucial 36 yet everyone knows that I don't rate that guy one bit.

There was a saffer born kiwi grant elliot who destroyed SA in semis. Yet no one rates him as the best ever

Same with gambir. He won the wc for India in 2 different formats. Is he the best ever batsman?

You weren't talking about the best bowler ever you were making comparisons with Wasim and Madan Lal.

When you are looking at the world cup record for Gambir you can take into his account his performance in final and semi final > than performance in all other group games. Absolutely.

A world cup win is a rare event for most sides.

 

[Vikram1989]

Bhai go have a look at wasim and waqara record. It's lower than madan lal in world cups.

Wasi. Akram ia not even in top 20
Loooooooooool

Lmao

Looooooool

@Vikram1989
@Buffet

Waqar is bang 20 below madan lal and zak khan.

Not that I rate the madan and zak over wasim and Waqar. But winning world cup alone doesn't matter is what I am saying. Performance impact matters more.

He claims head is great as he got mom in finals.then Faulkner and amarnath must be greatest all rounders than Botham, Hadlee, Flintoff, kallis .They must be the greatest bowlers than Donald, ambrose , steyn, bond .He spits venom and lies than logic.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Despite them being the richest board and despite ICC pampering them like a spoiled princess, they haven't won many trophies. They won just 1 ICC trophy in the past 10 years.

They mostly dominate group stages and bilateral games. Even that may stop now as players from their golden generation are retiring.

last two Series india played in BD and SL .. Lost it.. despite having Generational talent on both occasions.. Not to Mention SL is at their weakest point in last 2 decades .. BD was nt doing great either

 

[sweep_shot]

But winning world cup alone doesn't matter is what I am saying. Performance impact matters more.

Indians use this argument everytime they rewatch wc 2023 lol.

Their metrics keep on changing.

 

[mominsaigol]

There was a saffer born kiwi grant elliot who destroyed SA in semis. Yet no one rates him as the best ever

Same with gambir. He won the wc for India in 2 different formats. Is he the best ever batsman?

Even kohli wom world cup and champions trophy

So kohli >> wasim now?

And he won another t20 wc too. Is he a better player than Head in t20? Just cause he won 2 world cups.

Kohli is a better player > Head in every format. Currently head is superior because Kohli is a gone case.

However kohli in his prime is > Head in all 3 formats including test cricket.

The reason I said Head > kohli was to spite some Indians who anger me daily with nonsense upon nonsense so they needed a taste of their own medicine.

However Kohli is a better player then Head, He, Sachin, Dravid and a few others are amoung the few who are > Head.

However the idea that jaiswal, Gill, Siddu, Dhoni are > Head is comical and downright laughable. Even downright insulting.

 

[Wasim Ghulam]

Bumrah won a t20 wc which is easier to win as you only bowl 4 overs lol.

Where are his odi records?

Muhammad Amir won us Final in 2009 by dismissing prime Dilshan and Rohit Kohli in 2017. Bumrah will be considered ATG if he manages to play minimum 100 tests.. so far its not looking like it. Probably got 15-20 tests more left in him.. Look at Anderson.. Dude played cricket for 23 years without loosing form or fitness. These things matter when we consider ATG candidates

 

[FearlessRoar]

This thread is not for discussing Virat or other batters.

 

[Vikram1989]

This thread is not for discussing Virat or other batters.

Bro ,out of curiosity one qry. How do u feel when a person spamming the entire threads with unrelated stuff likes ur "Don't spam the thread" message

 

[Amjid Javed]

By that logic kohli won india a wc too by performing in thr final by scoring a crucial 36 yet everyone knows that I don't rate that guy one bit.

There was a saffer born kiwi grant elliot who destroyed SA in semis. Yet no one rates him as the best ever

Same with gambir. He won the wc for India in 2 different formats. Is he the best ever batsman?

Yeah there will be deluded Indians out there worshiping gambir as a god

 

[Pakhs]

There is no comparison—both Ws played more than a generation ago when cricket was a completely different game. Batsmen back then were built on solid defense and did not give their wickets away easily. In contrast, Bumrah and his contemporaries are playing in a completely different environment shaped by the T20 era.

Bumrah should be compared to Rabada and, to an extent, Steyn, Anderson, and others from the modern era. The two Ws, on the other hand, should be compared to bowlers like McGrath, Pollock, and others from their generation.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

There is no comparison—both Ws played more than a generation ago when cricket was a completely different game. Batsmen back then were built on solid defense and did not give their wickets away easily. In contrast, Bumrah and his contemporaries are playing in a completely different environment shaped by the T20 era.

Bumrah should be compared to Rabada and, to an extent, Steyn, Anderson, and others from the modern era. The two Ws, on the other hand, should be compared to bowlers like McGrath, Pollock, and others from their generation.

I think there is where @Buffet has done a job that is under appreciated.

Bumrah is way ahead of his peers. Wasim and Waqar were equal at best but under most of their more notable peers.

As someone who watched cricket at the time I think this analysis is fair and balanced, most Pakistanis would agree with it too regarding the two Ws in Test match.

 

[Pakhs]

I think there is where @Buffet has done a job that is under appreciated.

Bumrah is way ahead of his peers. Wasim and Waqar were equal at best but under most of their more notable peers.

As someone who watched cricket at the time I think this analysis is fair and balanced, most Pakistanis would agree with it too regarding the two Ws in Test match.

There were many great bowlers playing at the same time, which was also reflected in Pakistan’s overall team performance—they did not dominate because other teams also had world-class bowlers.

Bumrah, on the other hand, is playing in an era where only three teams are truly invested in Test cricket, and most teams are struggling. This provides plenty of opportunities to dominate weaker opposition. However, the key point remains that there is no real comparison between players from over a generation ago and those playing today. The game was completely different back then—it was more balanced between bat and ball, and all teams prioritized Test cricket, which is no longer the case.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

There were many great bowlers playing at the same time, which was also reflected in Pakistan’s overall team performance—they did not dominate because other teams also had world-class bowlers.

Bumrah, on the other hand, is playing in an era where only three teams are truly invested in Test cricket, and most teams are struggling. This provides plenty of opportunities to dominate weaker opposition. However, the key point remains that there is no real comparison between players from over a generation ago and those playing today. The game was completely different back then—it was more balanced between bat and ball, and all teams prioritized Test cricket, which is no longer the case.

I agree with your key point. The sport has evolved too much to be the same, although I guess our difference is I feel as part of that evolution we should also lower the wickets + matches played part for ATG status.

 

[Pakhs]

I agree with your key point. The sport has evolved too much to be the same, although I guess our difference is I feel as part of that evolution we should also lower the wickets + matches played part for ATG status.

In Test cricket, if you take away the longevity factor, the game becomes much easier. To be considered an all-time great (ATG) in Tests, a player must overcome all challenges—enduring the physical and mental demands of a long career, adapting to the evolution of the game, competing against multiple generations of opposition players, and consistently maintaining their place as an automatic selection in their own team for extended periods + ups and downs of losing team mates etc.

These are some of the things the previous ATGs have overcome. Now if you are speaking specifically about Bumrah? He has the ability to get 400 wickets but can he overcome other challenges?

 

[Caved12]

It’s refreshing to see how Pakistani posters on this thread have been discussing the game with such depth and understanding. Over the last two pages, they've provided well thought out points and sound reasoning, particularly regarding the comparison of Bumrah to other players and past greats. It's clear that the Indian posters here are making inaccurate comparisons, which only exposes their lack of true cricket knowledge. The posts from some Indian users have been so off-base and childish that it feels like they’ve learned their cricketing insights from video games rather than actual experience. It’s hard to take those arguments seriously after reading this thread.

 

[jnaveen1980]

There is no comparison—both Ws played more than a generation ago when cricket was a completely different game. Batsmen back then were built on solid defense and did not give their wickets away easily. In contrast, Bumrah and his contemporaries are playing in a completely different environment shaped by the T20 era.

Bumrah should be compared to Rabada and, to an extent, Steyn, Anderson, and others from the modern era. The two Ws, on the other hand, should be compared to bowlers like McGrath, Pollock, and others from their generation.

Eras are different. Are you saying Usman Khawaja, Labu, Smith are T20 hacks lol Only guy who has somehwat played Bumrah well was Head who is hackish. Not many played like Head back in those days. If you keep blocking Bumrah he will get you with one good ball eventually.

 

[kron]

This thread is not for discussing Virat or other batters.

Also another thing. If bumrah only focused on test cricket and select odi games like top players back in the days did then his numbers would be even better. He plays all formats and IPL. So comprising across era is hard regardless.

 

[BouncerGuy]

You guys have done a great service to this thread by derailing it with your IRRELEVANT sachin laxman, head, posts... thanks... No more.

 

[praveen]

Having watched both Wasim and Waqar through their careers , I firmly believe there should be a distinction. Akram is gold standard , the magical deliveries he bowled are unparalleled. Waqar induced fear with searing toe crushers but he is a tier below. I’d slot Bumrah in-between purely for his excellent all-format exploit which requires extreme skills , game presence and variations.

 

[BouncerGuy]

Bumrah has been a one-man army for Indian team so he is rated and praised highly and he deserves that praise actually. But looking down at Wasim just to make Bumrah another GOD like Sachin is not fair.

 

[Pakhs]

Eras are different. Are you saying Usman Khawaja, Labu, Smith are T20 hacks lol Only guy who has somehwat played Bumrah well was Head who is hackish. Not many played like Head back in those days. If you keep blocking Bumrah he will get you with one good ball eventually.

This isn't specifically about Bumrah, or at least my post isn't. However, comparing players across multiple generations doesn't make any sense.

 

[kron]

Bumrah has been a one-man army for Indian team so he is rated and praised highly and he deserves that praise actually. But looking down at Wasim just to make Bumrah another GOD like Sachin is not fair.

Both are true greats.

Asian players need to be rated higher period.

They don't play on fast bouncy or seaming wickets.

Wasims longevity gives him the edge but bumrah is catching up. Impact wise overall bumrah has been better.

Asian bowlers I repeat again get criminally underrated cause they don't get to stat pad like sena players who stat pad on bowler friendly pitches. I would reduce averages by 2 points to 3 for all great Asian bowlers in terms of averages. So wasim is really 21 level bowler. Average wise.

Bumrah career isn't finished so I am assuming the rate he is going as long as he doesn't average worse than 28 per year he should end with about 22 go 23 average.

 

[kron]

Eras are different. Are you saying Usman Khawaja, Labu, Smith are T20 hacks lol Only guy who has somehwat played Bumrah well was Head who is hackish. Not many played like Head back in those days. If you keep blocking Bumrah he will get you with one good ball eventually.

Bumrah would demolish you if you don't force your game on him. You need to play shots and be attacking. Defensive batsmen will struggle badly

Only 2 players have somewhat got lucky vs him and they are latham and Conway recently.due to crappy Indian pitches

 

[Ted123]

Unless Bumrah picks 400 test wickets, he can’t surpass Wasim. Even there, he must do it with an average under 23. I don’t think he can.

 

[psyoptica]

If a player who performs against Australia and sucks against everyone else, should he be considered the greatest ever?

 

[Romali_rotti]

If a player who performs against Australia and sucks against everyone else, should he be considered the greatest ever?

Bumrah sucks against everyone else ?, I didnt know this, when did you figure this out ?

 

[BouncerGuy]

Bumrah is pretty injury-prone, as he has now been injured. That is his only downside that he cannot play for long. He has to be utilized in short bursts. That is why a player like Wasim Akram excelled in their careers. He was a work horse.

 

[Ted123]

Bumrah sucks against everyone else ?, I didnt know this, when did you figure this out ?

Maybe he is talking about Wasim and Waqar who sucked against everyone except New Zealand of 90s who themselves sucked as a team.

 

[Ted123]

Personally, I won’t call the wickets picked against Pak or SL batters in Asia as stat padding. They both have a few good batters who averages 40+ and because those are Asian conditions where Bumrah hasn’t picked a lot of wickets, he still needs to do a bit against them to be really hitting that league of top 7-8 fast bowlers of all time.

Wasim and Donald are not in my top 5 either but they have done it in both Asian conditions and SWENA conditions too.

Bumrah doesn’t get to play Pakistan but then even BD have a few decent batters and won a decent number of games against good sides so would like to see him pick a few more wickets in Asia. SL batting has improved with inclusion of Kamindu Mendis so can’t really take those wickets for guaranteed.

All in all, given his future tours and not many games in Asia coming for him, I would say about 75 more wickets should do it for him.

 

[kron]

Bumrah is pretty injury-prone, as he has now been injured. That is his only downside that he cannot play for long. He has to be utilized in short bursts. That is why a player like Wasim Akram excelled in their careers. He was a work horse.

Waqar was well built. Moreso than wasim bumrah etc.

But Waqar was the one with the major back injury somehow.

Same with boooms. Wasim despite diabetes etc rarest ever got injured.

 

[kron]

Personally, I won’t call the wickets picked against Pak or SL batters in Asia as stat padding. They both have a few good batters who averages 40+ and because those are Asian conditions where Bumrah hasn’t picked a lot of wickets, he still needs to do a bit against them to be really hitting that league of top 7-8 fast bowlers of all time.

Wasim and Donald are not in my top 5 either but they have done it in both Asian conditions and SWENA conditions too.

Bumrah doesn’t get to play Pakistan but then even BD have a few decent batters and won a decent number of games against good sides so would like to see him pick a few more wickets in Asia. SL batting has improved with inclusion of Kamindu Mendis so can’t really take those wickets for guaranteed.

All in all, given his future tours and not many games in Asia coming for him, I would say about 75 more wickets should do it for him.

Wonder who has best stats in Asia vs Asian teams. We should open a thread. From Asian bowlers I mean.

I would wager to say wasim, shami bumrah would be in the convo. But bums and shami dint play pakistan.

 

[Ted123]

Wonder who has best stats in Asia vs Asian teams. We should open a thread. From Asian bowlers I mean.

I would wager to say wasim, shami bumrah would be in the convo. But bums and shami dint play pakistan.

Imran and Waqar.

 

[kron]

Imran and Waqar.

Do you have the stats.

@Buffet

 

[Ted123]

Do you have the stats.

@Buffet

With a filter of 100 test wickets as a minimum criteria,

Imran and Waqar average 20 while Wasim averages 22. Kapil averages 27. Only these 4 bowlers have picked 200+ wickets in Asia.

 

[Buffet]

Wonder who has best stats in Asia vs Asian teams. We should open a thread. From Asian bowlers I mean.

I would wager to say wasim, shami bumrah would be in the convo. But bums and shami dint play pakistan.

Here is entire list of pacers in Asia.

Top 3 are ,

Walsh
IK
Hadlee






Pacers in Asia when not playing in home grounds:

Top 3 are,

Waqar
Donald
Walsh


So in both lists, only Walsh made it to the top 3 and he is not even from Asia. I will focus more on away than home. Donald, Hadlee, Walsh, Roberts, Hadlee, Steyn all of them have taken the spots in top 6-7.

Wasim in both lists, appears way down the list. It was a surprise to me. Wasim comes way down against top teams in outside Asia as well, but I expected him to show near the top in this.

 

[kron]

Here is entire list of pacers in Asia.

Top 3 are ,

Walsh
IK
Hadlee

View attachment 149612




Pacers in Asia when not playing in home grounds:

Top 3 are,

Waqar
Donald
Walsh


So in both lists, only Walsh made it to the top 3 and he is not even from Asia. I will focus more on away than home. Donald, Hadlee, Walsh, Roberts, Hadlee, Steyn all of them have taken the spots in top 6-7.

Wasim in both lists, appears way down the list. It was a surprise to me. Wasim comes way down against top teams in outside Asia as well, but I expected him to show near the top in this.



View attachment 149613

Interesting. Seems like waqar loved reverse swing. Just like imran.

Tampered balls or not but overall it's impressive.

Having said that, I wonder if pakistan ever produced seaming tracks. Iirc mostly high ways or some times pitches with Carry but still on the lower side for bounce compared to Sa and aus pitches.

Home performances on dead tracks do matter. I am starting to believe it's now close between waqar and wasim but I give the edge to wasim as he performed more consistently.

 

[kron]

Here is entire list of pacers in Asia.

Top 3 are ,

Walsh
IK
Hadlee

View attachment 149612




Pacers in Asia when not playing in home grounds:

Top 3 are,

Waqar
Donald
Walsh


So in both lists, only Walsh made it to the top 3 and he is not even from Asia. I will focus more on away than home. Donald, Hadlee, Walsh, Roberts, Hadlee, Steyn all of them have taken the spots in top 6-7.

Wasim in both lists, appears way down the list. It was a surprise to me. Wasim comes way down against top teams in outside Asia as well, but I expected him to show near the top in this.



View attachment 149613

I watched some old tapes of marshalls 1983 84 series.

Nightmare series. Absolutely destroyed us at home and also away in west indies.

Brutally smashed us in odi too.

Soul crushing performance by w.indians.

Just could not handle the pace, fire, venom and bounce etc. Too much. Quartet were unstoppable. Incredible bowling.

Those are the kind of revenge series that give you mental scars for life.

We won the odi world cup so they were absolutely fired up at the time to decimate india. And boy did they do that in tests. 0 5 vs them. We had zero answers for their pace quartet.

 

[Hyder]

Its said that bowlers hunt in pairs but that also means sharing the wicket column and getting hit for more runs but other way around a sole bowler who is way better than everyone else is bound to be played cautiously by the opposition hence less runs and also more wickets to take. Pros and cons of being the only good bowler in team. Thats what i feel like because more often than not i feel opposition is over cautious against bumrah
Just like what sa did in final.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Its said that bowlers hunt in pairs but that also means sharing the wicket column and getting hit for more runs but other way around a sole bowler who is way better than everyone else is bound to be played cautiously by the opposition hence less runs and also more wickets to take. Pros and cons of being the only good bowler in team. Thats what i feel like because more often than not i feel opposition is over cautious against bumrah
Just like what sa did in final.

Being way ahead of your peers has distinct disadvantages as Kail Dev would testify. That guy was good enough to average under 25. But sadly with pathetic bowling partners he ended up bowling more overs than needed. There was one Test where he picked 9 for 83 against West Indies at peak by bowling 30 overs on the trot. You don't get that kind of figures every day by bowling 30 overs in a row. You get belted after 10 or 12 overs as bowler is going to lose their sting.

 

[Pakpak]

In six years between 1989 and 1995, Pakistan bowlers took 33 five-wicket hauls in Tests. All by the two Ws.

 

[Ab Fan]

Wasim Akram is better than Jasprit Bumrah.

Where is the durability for Bumrah?

Wasim has 900+ international wickets, Bumrah has 450.

Fast bowlers who were consistently great all round and also durable:-

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Ambrose
IK
Wasim
Donald
Steyn

Bumrah and Cummins have their careers relatively hindered due to being injury prone. Same for Waqar who also doesn’t have great all round record vs top teams. Pollock, Anderson and Rabada don’t have great all round record vs top teams but they were extremely durable. Steyn had some injuries in latter part of his career but played enough games and picked enough wickets. Walsh was extremely durable too and so was Kapil Dev.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

 

[Romali_rotti]

View attachment 149833

To be fair Wasim was good in all of Sena while Bumrah was better everywhere except New Zealand. So overall Wasim is better.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I watched some old tapes of marshalls 1983 84 series.

Nightmare series. Absolutely destroyed us at home and also away in west indies.

Brutally smashed us in odi too.

Soul crushing performance by w.indians.

Just could not handle the pace, fire, venom and bounce etc. Too much. Quartet were unstoppable. Incredible bowling.

Those are the kind of revenge series that give you mental scars for life.

We won the odi world cup so they were absolutely fired up at the time to decimate india. And boy did they do that in tests. 0 5 vs them. We had zero answers for their pace quartet.

One of the key disasters for India was the poor form of Jimmy, during the previous tour of WI, Jimmy hooked, pulled and dominated the WI bowlers scoring over 500 runs which was a rarity in those days vs Garner, Holding, Roberts etc.

If I remember correctly, however, WI did their home work on him and did not bowl short to Jimmy the entire series during 83 follow up series in India, they instead focused on line length and pitched the ball up.

Result was Amarnath couldn't get bat on ball and scored a whopping 1 run for the whole series including 5 ducks... India's best bat against pace bowling was totally taken out of the equation, Indians stood no chance at home vs WI as a result...

 

[Ted123]

Wasim Akram is better than Jasprit Bumrah.

Where is the durability for Bumrah?

Wasim has 900+ international wickets, Bumrah has 450.

Fast bowlers who were consistently great all round and also durable:-

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Ambrose
IK
Wasim
Donald
Steyn

Bumrah and Cummins have their careers relatively hindered due to being injury prone. Same for Waqar who also doesn’t have great all round record vs top teams. Pollock, Anderson and Rabada don’t have great all round record vs top teams but they were extremely durable. Steyn had some injuries in latter part of his career but played enough games and picked enough wickets. Walsh was extremely durable too and so was Kapil Dev.

Cummins has managed his workload well since his return in 2017. Played 65 tests in 8 years.

Bumrah has slightly more concerning back issues due to which he always is prone to injury.

 

[kron]

Wasim Akram is better than Jasprit Bumrah.

Where is the durability for Bumrah?

Wasim has 900+ international wickets, Bumrah has 450.

Fast bowlers who were consistently great all round and also durable:-

Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee
Ambrose
IK
Wasim
Donald
Steyn

Bumrah and Cummins have their careers relatively hindered due to being injury prone. Same for Waqar who also doesn’t have great all round record vs top teams. Pollock, Anderson and Rabada don’t have great all round record vs top teams but they were extremely durable. Steyn had some injuries in latter part of his career but played enough games and picked enough wickets. Walsh was extremely durable too and so was Kapil Dev.

Wrong. Wasim akram is GREATER than bumrah only due to longevity

Bumrah is BETTER than wasim. Better bowler.

Wasim legacy is greater.

You can be a greater bowler and still be an inferior player compared to the better individual.

It's like Shane bond. Shane bond is better than waqar and akthar and kapil dev.

But he doesn't have a great legacy cause his career was cut short.